[Albionic]

Firstly let ma state that I absolutely get the fans institution, that generations have invested in the club and its history,
However the question could be framed against the back drop that football is now very much a business and the fans romantic attachment is now a virtual irrelevance
Against this backdrop,
Is WBAFC Ltd a cash generator? - unequivocally not, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a vehicle for global advertising, not realistically, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a status symbol, hardly, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a long term investment proposition only if it becomes permanently resident in EPL

So how to achieve the elusive "permanently resident in EPL" status, is it a quick fix, patently not, if it were many, many rich owners would have achieved it by now.

The ONLY way forward for this club is a solid medium / long term plan which is better than the "others" plans. Constantly chasing the quick fix is doomed to failure, which will mean the chinese ownership will remain in place and value of the asset will diminish.
 

[SmethDan]

Firstly let ma state that I absolutely get the fans institution, that generations have invested in the club and its history,
However the question could be framed against the back drop that football is now very much a business and the fans romantic attachment is now a virtual irrelevance
Against this backdrop,
Is WBAFC Ltd a cash generator? - unequivocally not, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a vehicle for global advertising, not realistically, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a status symbol, hardly, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a long term investment proposition only if it becomes permanently resident in EPL

So how to achieve the elusive "permanently resident in EPL" status, is it a quick fix, patently not, if it were many, many rich owners would have achieved it by now.

The ONLY way forward for this club is a solid medium / long term plan which is better than the "others" plans. Constantly chasing the quick fix is doomed to failure, which will mean the chinese ownership will remain in place and value of the asset will diminish.

Under those parameters you could have titled the thread 'What is the point of the EFL?', 'What is the point of life outside the EPL?' or 'What is the point of football?' No need to confine it to Albion.

[NJS]

Firstly let ma state that I absolutely get the fans institution, that generations have invested in the club and its history,
However the question could be framed against the back drop that football is now very much a business and the fans romantic attachment is now a virtual irrelevance
Against this backdrop,
Is WBAFC Ltd a cash generator? - unequivocally not, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a vehicle for global advertising, not realistically, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a status symbol, hardly, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a long term investment proposition only if it becomes permanently resident in EPL

So how to achieve the elusive "permanently resident in EPL" status, is it a quick fix, patently not, if it were many, many rich owners would have achieved it by now.

The ONLY way forward for this club is a solid medium / long term plan which is better than the "others" plans. Constantly chasing the quick fix is doomed to failure, which will mean the chinese ownership will remain in place and value of the asset will diminish.

I agree with your last paragraph.  The only way for a club of our size to do well is to be smarter and, over time, adopt / embrace new, possibly radical ideas like some of the German clubs or Brentford.  Yes, at the moment it's hardly a 'trophy' or fashion / London club that some foreign owner will buy just to flaunt in front of his mates

However, in no way is it a club an irrelevance at any level.  You only have to watch the BBC program about Bury to realise how much a club means to a town, an area or just a clan of people whose family have supported it generation after generation.  I've seen scary passion at Halesowen Town in my youth.

Your questions try to define The Albion in terms of being in the EPL but for me the club doesn't evaporate into thin air if it is relegated.

This is just one season in the nearly 150 year history of the club.  As long as we can resist going into unrecoverable debt and selling real estate assets we'll come out of this - and playing attractive football, I hope.

[KYA]

What is the point of football? only 5 or 6 teams with a realistic chance of winning anything nevermind Albion, even the likes of Everton ever-present in the top tier for donkey's years are just making the numbers up.
Villa fans a few years ago were fed up with finishing 6th and wanted demanded better when you look at supporters comments very few are satisfied with their lot Arsenal, Spurs, Newcastle constantly moaning.
Unless you have owners willing to throw obscene amounts of money into a club then you will stagnate the magic that used to be football as disappeared the same way as video recorders long may it rest in peace.

[miggybaggy]

An interesting and fascinating topic which could potentially be a great subject for a PhD in Socio-Economics (or similar). It would therefore be beyond the scope of a forum like this to tackle the topic in great detail!

I think 'the point of WBA', and the point of professional football in general has reached a significant moment in its history...possibly accelerated by Coronavirus. The recent 'point of WBA', and all other clubs outside the 'big six', has been for the financial benefit of the owners and major shareholders of Sky, the 'big six', and the footballers and agents themselves. Many other clubs down through the pecking order are sinking into financial oblivion fast and will not be able to survive much longer in the way they are being run presently.

I'm from an ageing generation who fell in love with the Albion during the late 60's early 70's when the finances of clubs were of little relevance and it was all about the pure raw emotions of match days and individual footballers with varying talents and personalities that didn't seem to move between clubs very often....this was the same for most clubs and it fed the human emotional need for 'connections' with fellow supporters/tradition/tribal instincts etc etc....But, lets be honest here, we all look back with rose-tinted spectacles, capacity home attendances at the Hawthorns have rarely been achieved throughout our history...just look at all the stats. We are who we are....there has always been a steady hardcore of about 15,000 who have attended games consistently during my life time.

Ultimately, my point is that we must accept that we are never going to be in a position to compete at the top level because under the present structure of football we simply cannot afford the wages of the better players. But....because for me football is all about emotion rather than cash I will always love the Albion and support the team...its in my DNA and no doubt yours too....and that's what the big wage earners in football PLC feed from. COYB!

[ex coseley kid]

What is the point of football? only 5 or 6 teams with a realistic chance of winning anything nevermind Albion, even the likes of Everton ever-present in the top tier for donkey's years are just making the numbers up.

I think it is very true that unless you are top six plus whoever is flavour of the month (you could count Wolves and Leicester in that category), football is totally stagnant. As you say, none of the other clubs are safe from the threat of relegation, which would be fine except for the monumental financial implications of that now.

Turn anything that should be fun into a money machine and you wreck it completely and destroy its personality. The music industry is now by and large controlled by the same small batch of songwriters and producers and they have a monopoly on it.

I don't know how you resurrect our beautiful game. The gulf is colossal now and really is absurd.

[skyclad99]

Under those parameters you could have titled the thread 'What is the point of the EFL?', 'What is the point of life outside the EPL?' or 'What is the point of football?' No need to confine it to Albion.

Took the words right out of my mouth there Dan.

Run correctly and there is no reason that WBA could be in mid table in the Premier league with the ability to hold our own, that is the logical next step. At this moment I would just like us to be a strong as say, Southampton, or Crystal Palace etc

Leeds gave us a lesson both on and off the pitch the other day, we need to learn and that will not be happening until there is a change of ownership.

There is plenty of point to WBA, it is why we are all on here - how it is run is beyond our control but we all live in hope. We are all genuine fans, just like the ones who follow, Chesterfield, Rochdale etc and we are in a far better position than them.

[OhBilics]

I don't know how you resurrect our beautiful game.

I like the approach some Man U fans had who rejected Glazer's purchase of their club, and what Wimbledon fans did when that club's owners moved it to Milton Keynes - they founded their own club.

[seteefeet]

There's no real point to any club other than to their supporters, some just have more than others.

So, for me, we are just as important and unimportant as every other. You could pick ANY team out of the 92 at any given time and a percentage of their fans would be unhappy. Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea fans will all be upset that they are not top. Liverpool that they are not "top enough". Villa, Leicester, Spurs, Everton, Wolves etc. will be awaiting the "inevitable" implosion. The rest will be constantly looking over their shoulders. The mindset of a football fan is rarely a happy one 

Yes we appear to be at a low point right now, but it's not the end of the world, we've been lower!
Yes, I'm miserable most of the time and am not happy with the owner, the DoF, the manager or the players but.....

I've lived through Trev the Shed, Bobby Gould, Alan Buckley, Ron Saunders and Tony Pulis. I've watched George Reilly, Stewart Evans, John Paskin, Fabien DeFreitas and Ronnie Wallwork. I've been through numerous cup semi-final and even UEFA heartaches, seen several relegations, including Bristol Rovers. At NO point whatsoever though, did I ever have the option to walk away. This club is in my blood and will be until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil. And for that I will be eternally grateful.

And that, my friends, is the point of WBA.

[darbolina]

Firstly let ma state that I absolutely get the fans institution, that generations have invested in the club and its history,
However the question could be framed against the back drop that football is now very much a business and the fans romantic attachment is now a virtual irrelevance
Against this backdrop,
Is WBAFC Ltd a cash generator? - unequivocally not, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a vehicle for global advertising, not realistically, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a status symbol, hardly, unless permanently resident in EPL
Is WBAFC a long term investment proposition only if it becomes permanently resident in EPL

So how to achieve the elusive "permanently resident in EPL" status, is it a quick fix, patently not, if it were many, many rich owners would have achieved it by now.

The ONLY way forward for this club is a solid medium / long term plan which is better than the "others" plans. Constantly chasing the quick fix is doomed to failure, which will mean the chinese ownership will remain in place and value of the asset will diminish.

Great and petinent topic for us and loads of clubs. As others have said , the point of the club is mostly the fans. The problem I have and I think I mates who support other teams have is that the current structure and culture of football in this country is slowly killing the 'soul' of it , it's kind of eating itself with its soulless focus on money and the business side where fans are mostly treated as commodities to be exploited instead of people with genuine connection to a local area , history and something bigger than ££.

Having ownership who have no interest in fans, the 'soul',  history or long term future of the club makes this problem even more pertinent for Albion.
 

[skyclad99]

I like the approach some Man U fans had who rejected Glazer's purchase of their club, and what Wimbledon fans did when that club's owners moved it to Milton Keynes - they founded their own club.

Good idea, we could call ourselves ‘the Real WBA’, or ‘Continuity WBA’, or how about ‘I can’t believe it’s not WBA’....

I certainly cannot believe what I am watching at the moment is WBA anyway...

[Hull Baggie]

Good idea, we could call ourselves ‘the Real WBA’, or ‘Continuity WBA’, or how about ‘I can’t believe it’s not WBA’....

I certainly cannot believe what I am watching at the moment is WBA anyway...

We're Bloody Awful?

[wodenson46]

An interesting and fascinating topic which could potentially be a great subject for a PhD in Socio-Economics (or similar). It would therefore be beyond the scope of a forum like this to tackle the topic in great detail!

I think 'the point of WBA', and the point of professional football in general has reached a significant moment in its history...possibly accelerated by Coronavirus. The recent 'point of WBA', and all other clubs outside the 'big six', has been for the financial benefit of the owners and major shareholders of Sky, the 'big six', and the footballers and agents themselves. Many other clubs down through the pecking order are sinking into financial oblivion fast and will not be able to survive much longer in the way they are being run presently.

I'm from an ageing generation who fell in love with the Albion during the late 60's early 70's when the finances of clubs were of little relevance and it was all about the pure raw emotions of match days and individual footballers with varying talents and personalities that didn't seem to move between clubs very often....this was the same for most clubs and it fed the human emotional need for 'connections' with fellow supporters/tradition/tribal instincts etc etc....But, lets be honest here, we all look back with rose-tinted spectacles, capacity home attendances at the Hawthorns have rarely been achieved throughout our history...just look at all the stats. We are who we are....there has always been a steady hardcore of about 15,000 who have attended games consistently during my life time.

Ultimately, my point is that we must accept that we are never going to be in a position to compete at the top level because under the present structure of football we simply cannot afford the wages of the better players. But....because for me football is all about emotion rather than cash I will always love the Albion and support the team...its in my DNA and no doubt yours too....and that's what the big wage earners in football PLC feed from. COYB!

Enjoyed reading that whole post Miggybaggy. I started from a time even earlier than the one you recall when players were usually mostly from the local area and might be seen on a public bus going to the game. Supporters and players were all similar in backgrounds, which engendered a loyalty and shared traditions as members of the particular club. I also firmly believe that you hit the nail squarely on the head with your comments about Skye etc.

The EPL is little more than a soap opera financed by the tv media, with its regular cast of star characters. These 'celebrity' characters get the attention of both the broadcast and written media, and generally benefit from media support. When the ordinary man in the street, as well as ex- professionals from the playing and the officiating spheres criticise any of the central characters, the media usually find ways to excuse or explain away misdeeds or cheating.

Supposedly objective, impartial, non-partisan, officials and their professional organisations are 'encouraged' to maintain the lead character's storylines at all times. Vis 33 penalty decisions in 2 seasons or so given in favour of one long time senior character. Not to mention the number of crucial decisions not given against this character. Similar is probable amongst all of the leading cast members.

Other minor characters come in and out to fulfil the main story lines, and some of these have slightly extended roles but are still only temporary supports for the core cast. None of these benefit long term from any deviation from the set story.

West Bromwich Albion are a minor character in this soap opera, so far whilst not considered essential to any particular story, have not yet been 'killed off' permanently by the writers. We can only hope that before this murder occurs the main characters run out of local plots and extend their storylines further afield to join similar European based adventures. Thus the remainder are then free to return to utopian 'real life' UK productions, where none of the characters are under contract to Skye to similar: Where a couple of matches per week are broadcast on free to view terrestrial tv stations:  Where Officials are left to make their decisions and genuine mistakes without a second layer of corruption interfering, and supporters are treated as people and not one-way cash machines.

Also agree with Setteefeet

This club is in my blood and will be until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil. And for that I will be eternally grateful.

And that, my friends, is the point of WBA.

[skyclad99]

I like the approach some Man U fans had who rejected Glazer's purchase of their club, and what Wimbledon fans did when that club's owners moved it to Milton Keynes - they founded their own club.

The other more serious point of this is whilst I can understand why Wimbledon did it, I am not sure that the Man Utd fan move was good. I know that there was a lot of opposition to the Glazers buying the club, and the way that they structured the purchase, but here we are several years down the line, and they are fielding the likes of Rashford, Pogba and Fernandez, whilst 'Continuity Man Utd' are looking forward to such gripping fixtures with Matlock Town and Bamber Bridge etc I know who I would rather be watching.

I wish the Glazers would buy us right now... [yes, I know they can't before you fall off your seats to get to your keyboard].

[Gilsey 56]

There's no real point to any club other than to their supporters, some just have more than others.

So, for me, we are just as important and unimportant as every other. You could pick ANY team out of the 92 at any given time and a percentage of their fans would be unhappy. Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea fans will all be upset that they are not top. Liverpool that they are not "top enough". Villa, Leicester, Spurs, Everton, Wolves etc. will be awaiting the "inevitable" implosion. The rest will be constantly looking over their shoulders. The mindset of a football fan is rarely a happy one 

Yes we appear to be at a low point right now, but it's not the end of the world, we've been lower!
Yes, I'm miserable most of the time and am not happy with the owner, the DoF, the manager or the players but.....

I've lived through Trev the Shed, Bobby Gould, Alan Buckley, Ron Saunders and Tony Pulis. I've watched George Reilly, Stewart Evans, John Paskin, Fabien DeFreitas and Ronnie Wallwork. I've been through numerous cup semi-final and even UEFA heartaches, seen several relegations, including Bristol Rovers. At NO point whatsoever though, did I ever have the option to walk away. This club is in my blood and will be until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil. And for that I will be eternally grateful.

And that, my friends, is the point of WBA.

you've said it all, spot on we most certainly have been in worse condition, for all this misery I can't wait to get back up there and have a rant.
the supporters are the one real reason its worth it.

[OhBilics]

whilst 'Continuity Man Utd' are looking forward to such gripping fixtures with Matlock Town and Bamber Bridge etc I know who I would rather be watching

Well I wouldn't be watching Manchester Anything, but I get your point. I think the idea though is that you don't aim to stay at that level, you'd want to reach higher. AFC have done it, the Manchester lot haven't. Success isn't guaranteed and anyone who pays £150M quid or whatever it was for a football club, thinking it is, is doing some very foolish business.

[lewisant]

This is a great thread - Miggybaggy I really enjoyed your post and you summed up my feelings.

A sustained level of football without fans (Years) I think would slowly lead to prove the point that "football is nothing without the fans." I'm watching far less football this year. Still as interested and passionate as ever about West Brom but I'll happily pass on a decent looking game on paper now. Chelsea v Man City, no thanks, I'd rather watch a film. I just don't feel it without the fans.

[Standaman]

This is not a question that applies to just the Albion, aside from the genuine global entities there is really a question mark as to the purpose of football clubs as competitive sporting entities.

I think it is a mistake to draw a line halfway down the Premier League and above the line is a footballing Eldorado and below a wasteland. Wolves Leicester and Villa all seem to be on the right side of the line but I honestly think there are very few seats at the table and none of those clubs will be sitting down when the future of the game is ultimately decided. Leicester's title might be last hurrah of the English games middle classes.

At the heart of debate is the central contradiction that is fans generally want clubs to be community based accessible and in touch with their fans. However community based organisations are generally not counter parties to multi-million pound contracts and the management of such requires at the very least a certain degree of professional detachment. With it comes a whole raft of commercial considerations many of which fly in direct contradiction to being community based.

 To some extent the die was cast when the game went professional and football has just largely followed national and global economic trends. With one key exception that because football clubs need other clubs to play they don't consolidate like other commercial entities have over time. However the rich have grown richer and the poorer have grown poorer but haven't died.

This has a very obvious impact on the general level of competitiveness within football not only within England and to an even greater degree elsewhere. The relatively level playing field in the Premier League (compared to other European leagues) is entirely accidental and will be short lived.

If you want to see the contradictions writ large look no further than Manchester United. I never grow tired of listening to Man United fans bleat about the Glazers. For the most part it boils down the fact that the Glazers take money out of the club and don't spend it on footballers, however none ever question the distribution mechanisms that make the Glazers the entirely logical end point and most would be aghast at any measure which would level up the playing field to a degree that United's financial muscle couldn't be deployed to steamroller all before them. Well ain't life unfair.

This was not inevitable but it needed to be different by design.

Where does this leave us? Somewhere in the middle which is an unfortunate place to be. It is easier to be small focused on the local community with some hope of modest progression or maybe a cup run which might result in a giant killing.  At the other extreme if you are a fan of the big 6 well silverware anything other than a top 4 finish is a crisis but at least the resources are there to meet those expectations. Our position is the worst close enough to the big league to have our noses pressed against the glass but never quite have the prizes within our reach.

This situation has been maybe 50 years in the making and becomes less sustainable with each passing season. Something has to give and I do feel the game is ripe for reform, yet the direction of travel is not going to make us any happier as fans of WBA.   

[Albionic]

Enjoyed reading that whole post Miggybaggy. I started from a time even earlier than the one you recall when players were usually mostly from the local area and might be seen on a public bus going to the game. Supporters and players were all similar in backgrounds, which engendered a loyalty and shared traditions as members of the particular club. I also firmly believe that you hit the nail squarely on the head with your comments about Skye etc.

The EPL is little more than a soap opera financed by the tv media, with its regular cast of star characters. These 'celebrity' characters get the attention of both the broadcast and written media, and generally benefit from media support. When the ordinary man in the street, as well as ex- professionals from the playing and the officiating spheres criticise any of the central characters, the media usually find ways to excuse or explain away misdeeds or cheating.

Supposedly objective, impartial, non-partisan, officials and their professional organisations are 'encouraged' to maintain the lead character's storylines at all times. Vis 33 penalty decisions in 2 seasons or so given in favour of one long time senior character. Not to mention the number of crucial decisions not given against this character. Similar is probable amongst all of the leading cast members.

Other minor characters come in and out to fulfil the main story lines, and some of these have slightly extended roles but are still only temporary supports for the core cast. None of these benefit long term from any deviation from the set story.

West Bromwich Albion are a minor character in this soap opera, so far whilst not considered essential to any particular story, have not yet been 'killed off' permanently by the writers. We can only hope that before this murder occurs the main characters run out of local plots and extend their storylines further afield to join similar European based adventures. Thus the remainder are then free to return to utopian 'real life' UK productions, where none of the characters are under contract to Skye to similar: Where a couple of matches per week are broadcast on free to view terrestrial tv stations:  Where Officials are left to make their decisions and genuine mistakes without a second layer of corruption interfering, and supporters are treated as people and not one-way cash machines.

Also agree with Setteefeet

This club is in my blood and will be until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil. And for that I will be eternally grateful.

And that, my friends, is the point of WBA.

I started this thread on the basis that I fully get the emotional investment which we the fans have in the club. I don’t want to denigrate that in any way but whilst we can all hark back to good and bad times and swear our devotion to the club. BUT  it no longer matters 1 iota, if Lai could wind the club up to get his cash back be under no doubt that he would.
I despair at our situation in the main because the landscape has changed so radically that a few seasons in the chumps or worse will consign us to the basket case group that are vying for survival like so many of our peers

[OhBilics]

To some extent the die was cast when the game went professional and football has just largely followed national and global economic trends. With one key exception that because football clubs need other clubs to play they don't consolidate like other commercial entities have over time. However the rich have grown richer and the poorer have grown poorer but haven't died.

The sooner the top however-many-it-is duck off to a European "super league" or whatever the better, in my opinion. The glory hunter "fans" can duck off with 'em 'n all.

There won't be as much money around, so we won't buy all the best players and pay them shed loads of money and... please explain why that is a bad thing?

Our position is the worst close enough to the big league to have our noses pressed against the glass but never quite have the prizes within our reach.

I don't really feel that way. Maybe it's because I'm old enough to see it happen (1968) and nearly happen again in 79, and I've also watched us sink way down low. Maybe it's because the "glass" is a false, financial, one, not a football one. We're Albion, and we're better than any other club in the country, regardless of how well or otherwise we do on the football pitch or in the backrooms where the financial pie is divvied up to the detriment of smaller clubs and football overall.

[TheJacko2000]

The sooner the top however-many-it-is duck off to a European "super league" or whatever the better, in my opinion. The glory hunter "fans" can duck off with 'em 'n all.

There won't be as much money around, so we won't buy all the best players and pay them shed loads of money and... please explain why that is a bad thing?
I don't really feel that way. Maybe it's because I'm old enough to see it happen (1968) and nearly happen again in 79, and I've also watched us sink way down low. Maybe it's because the "glass" is a false, financial, one, not a football one. We're Albion, and we're better than any other club in the country, regardless of how well or otherwise we do on the football pitch or in the backrooms where the financial pie is divvied up to the detriment of smaller clubs and football overall.

If any European Super League happens it will be alongside the Premier League in place of the Champions League, no clubs would leave.

[OhBilics]

If any European Super League happens it will be alongside the Premier League in place of the Champions League, no clubs would leave.

In that case I'm going to have to resort to my other plan, and nuke them from orbit!

[Standaman]

If any European Super League happens it will be alongside the Premier League in place of the Champions League, no clubs would leave.

If European football generates more revenue for the bigger clubs across Europe then their stranglehold on domestic competition is even greater. Logic sees those leagues dying because there is no point to making up the numbers with no route open to being something other than the big six's walking punchbag. What amazes me is that fans keep turning up at most mid-table Premier League clubs. 

[Albionic]

If European football generates more revenue for the bigger clubs across Europe then their stranglehold on domestic competition is even greater. Logic sees those leagues dying because there is no point to making up the numbers with no route open to being something other than the big six's walking punchbag. What amazes me is that fans keep turning up at most mid-table Premier League clubs.

The fans that are turning up are doing so on the basis of the clubs heritage / history / tribal associations / social engagement etc, they are an aging population, they are not spending their hard earned cash purely for the "entertainment" thats for sure.
British Football has started down a very dangerous path, but only when the fans are sufficiently dis-enfranchised and TV moves to the Bundesliga or Seria 1 for the "class A product to export globally'  will the big clubs acknowledge this.  Then their American / russian / Arab owners will just move on to the super league or maybe even a different E sport.

Doomed I tell ye, we're all doomed !!