[SmethDan]

Such a pity the A-Team failed as well, we all love it when plans come together....... but sometimes they don't.

[boinging_along]

Pretty pointless appointing him then, as that is exactly the expectation of the Board (and a fair few fans) when we appointed him. No getting away from it, he was given a remit and he has failed to deliver.

I think the other thing is that the teams that were only a couple of points away from us *have* gone on to do that too.  It's not like we were miles behind and we've finished miles behind.  We were closer and our form, under Sam, has been worse than the teams above - hence them pulling away from us. 

[TheJacko2000]

But that's what he was hired to do, and that's the job he accepted.

We needed it to be a similar season to the last 4 years where 35 or 36 points keeps you up. Even then it was a very big ask, hence the very big bonus. Allardyce would still have needed to hit the same numbers as a 43 point full season. That's 14th, 15th, 13th and 14th in the last four seasons. What your asking translates to a 47 point season. Something only ever bettered once by Albion in the PL.

It hasn't panned out mainly due to Sheffield United and Liverpool being so far underpar that the middle of the league has contracted and at least 16 teams look likely to get to 40 points.

[skyclad99]

By that logic lets bring in Guardiola now and expect him to keep us up.

It's just nonsense. Nobody with our squad would have kept us up when Allardyce was appointed, nobody.

Spot on Atomic, our fate was sealed way before Sam came on board.

Had we have appointed someone else and witnessed their 'crash and burn'  we would be saying 'at least Sam would have kept us up'which tells you how bad we were, and if he could not do it with the resources available I am happy that it was a virtually impossible task.

[ttree30]

But that's what he was hired to do, and that's the job he accepted.

That was the hope. I’m far from sure it was the expectation. We were already drowning and desperately looking for a lifeboat.

The facts are we have an inadequate unbalanced squad that’s struggled for results for well over a year, in both the EPL and the Championship. Under two coaches.

I’m 100% convinced relegation is almost totally about the inadequacy of the players we’ve had; it’s much less about tactics or individual selections, which have perhaps made things a bit better or perhaps a bit worse. But the overall picture wouldn’t have changed, whatever tactics were employed. This is a poor team with five wins all season.

The question now is whether there’s a better option than Allardyce that could be attracted to a club like ours. Owners who want out, frugal spending, and a poor inventory on the pitch.

Personally I very much doubt we’ll do better than BS - there’s a big job ahead, because I fear this is the weakest team we’ve been relegated with since Megson’s side. It’s not one for a novice or a cavalier appointment that could go badly wrong, and leave us marooned a very long way from a return to the top table.

Every appointment is a gamble. Keeping BS is a gamble too. But it looks less of a wild punt than almost every other likely option.

Assuming of course we can persuade him to stay in the first place.

[Baggies]

Purely on recent form we're likely to finish 18th and pick up a further 5 or 6 points. We needed it to be a 3 horse race with one of the over achieving teams being nearer to us and Fulham. Say a 4 point gap at this stage. Sadly it wasn't to be and 38 points from a standing start of 7 from 13 games was just not a realistic prospect.

A few weeks ago I thought we were on course to over take Fulham, but with 4 games left their fixtures are a lot kinder than ours. I think we probably get a surprise win against either Leeds or West Ham but I'd be surprised if we finish on more than 30 points now. Fulham should get 4 points from their last 4 games - 3 vs bottom six sides.

[Edit] - sorry, pressed send too soon. I do agree the required points total has made it very difficult, although I should add when Bilic was sacked we were 3 points off Burnley and 4 off Brighton, yet both of those sides seem to have been able to achieve seemingly unrealistic points per game improvement required.

In any case, had Allardyce got close to them and fell at the last hurdle I would understand the view point that he has done a good job while here. In reality, we have never really been in contention and so if we are being kind you can only really stretch to say he has done a so so job.

[skyclad99]

Saying the players aren't good enough regardless of the manager and nobody would have kept us up is a cop out. Worse teams than us have survived before. I would rather he didn't stay, but I can see the value in keeping him. He has improved us, albeit too late and it would perhaps be silly to undo that at this point. I do find it a bit odd how much praise he's getting for the below average job he has done though.

Its not a cop out at all, when you consider the facts [virtually the same team as last year, no real investment] it is fairly evident. We fell apart well over a year ago, and long before BS arrived. He has improved the team with virtually no money which I think is pretty good to be honest. I would like to see him have a real stab at getting us back up next year, but I hope that if he does stay then the board back him.

Playing devils advocate, what do we think we would be doing had we survived in this god forsaken league on goal difference? Another year looking for bargain basement players? Another year of looking forward to the one spectacular result [Chelsea] and wondering where our other four wins will be coming from?, another year of zero investment and no interest from our owner?

I seriously worry about where we are going at the moment. I hope there is a plan.

[ttree30]

Its not a cop out at all, when you consider the facts [virtually the same team as last year, no real investment] it is fairly evident. We fell apart well over a year ago, and long before BS arrived. He has improved the team with virtually no money which I think is pretty good to be honest. I would like to see him have a real stab at getting us back up next year, but I hope that if he does stay then the board back him.

I agree. A “cop out” is avoiding or failing to do something you SHOULD do.

There’s no way anyone SHOULD have kept this ramshackle squad in the EPL. It was holed below the waterline before it even set sail.

The facts are - the players are not good enough. Nowhere near good enough.

The evidence is there, plain as day, with well over a year of results and performances under two different coaches in two different divisions. What more exactly do we need to see to prove it?

We can spend hours talking about tactics, selections and the rest - but no amount of re-steering this ship would ever have stopped it from sinking.

Not. Good. Enough.

[TheJacko2000]

A few weeks ago I thought we were on course to over take Fulham, but with 4 games left their fixtures are a lot kinder than ours. I think we probably get a surprise win against either Leeds or West Ham but I'd be surprised if we finish on more than 30 points now. Fulham should get 4 points from their last 4 games - 3 vs bottom six sides.

[Edit] - sorry, pressed send too soon. I do agree the required points total has made it very difficult, although I should add when Bilic was sacked we were 3 points off Burnley and 4 off Brighton, yet both of those sides seem to have been able to achieve seemingly unrealistic points per game improvement required.

In any case, had Allardyce got close to them and fell at the last hurdle I would understand the view point that he has done a good job while here. In reality, we have never really been in contention and so if we are being kind you can only really stretch to say he has done a so so job.

Brighton and Burnley are established PL sides, much like us under Hodgson and latterly Pulis. Their improvement wasn't unrealistic.

[timdon]

We needed it to be a similar season to the last 4 years where 35 or 36 points keeps you up. Even then it was a very big ask, hence the very big bonus. Allardyce would still have needed to hit the same numbers as a 43 point full season. That's 14th, 15th, 13th and 14th in the last four seasons. What your asking translates to a 47 point season. Something only ever bettered once by Albion in the PL.

It hasn't panned out mainly due to Sheffield United and Liverpool being so far underpar that the middle of the league has contracted and at least 16 teams look likely to get to 40 points.

35 points would have been enough to keep a team up for each of the last 4 seasons. Let's assume that was the yardstick when Allardyce was appointed. In which case, we would have needed to get 28 points from 25 games, which is hardly a "very big ask", barely more than a point a game. If Allardyce had achieved the 35 point target and we had still been relegated, you would have an argument that he had been unlucky, but he won't achieve that. He took the job on the basis that it was perfectly realistic for him to keep us up (we were only 3 points off 17th at the time). You can spin it whichever way you want, but he has failed and needs to be replaced.

[TheJacko2000]

35 points would have been enough to keep a team up for each of the last 4 seasons. Let's assume that was the yardstick when Allardyce was appointed. In which case, we would have needed to get 28 points from 25 games, which is hardly a "very big ask", barely more than a point a game. If Allardyce had achieved the 35 point target and we had still been relegated, you would have an argument that he had been unlucky, but he won't achieve that. He took the job on the basis that it was perfectly realistic for him to keep us up (we were only 3 points off 17th at the time). You can spin it whichever way you want, but he has failed and needs to be replaced.

Look deeper into the numbers it really isn't difficult maths. You think taking a team that was getting 0.54 ppg over a 3 month period (projected final points total 20, the 6th worst in Premier League history) to a level that would have seen them finish comfortably midtable EVERY season ie on 43 points was hardly a very big ask? Your expectations of the new manager and indeed the unbalanced squad he inherited are borderline ridiculous.

[Baggies]

Brighton and Burnley are established PL sides, much like us under Hodgson and latterly Pulis. Their improvement wasn't unrealistic.

Maybe, it's a fair point.

It does circle me back to those first 10 games with Allardyce though, the 5 points achieved over 10 games where many say the personnel were just not good enough and Allardyce had absolutely no chance. While there is merit in that, you only have to look at what another organiser in Dyche has done at Burnley. His first 11 are full of misfits and rejects, players written off as not good enough before. Lowton and Westwood who were written off by Villa fans (and in fairness looked awful in that relegation season), Matej Vydra who has never been able to to crack the premier league, Jay Rodriguez who was relegated with us and who had question marks over him after that relegation and a ton of other players signed from championship sides or relegated prem sides.

It's why I was surprised by just how little he got from the players who were here.

[paulosull]

The owner sought the services of Allardyce with believe that he could keep us up, he's failed in that respect so why reward him with what will probably be the highest salary in Championship?
This club has tried the never been relegated coaches all of whom have failed with their remit. Has there no one at the Albion the cahooners to look out side this box?

[timdon]

Look deeper into the numbers it really isn't difficult maths. You think taking a team that was getting 0.54 ppg over a 3 month period (projected final points total 20, the 6th worst in Premier League history) to a level that would have seen them finish comfortably midtable EVERY season ie on 43 points was hardly a very big ask? Your expectations of the new manager and indeed the unbalanced squad he inherited are borderline ridiculous.

Do you think that the expectations of the Board, and indeed Allardyce himself, at the time of his appointment were "borderline ridiculous" as well then?

[TheJacko2000]

Maybe, it's a fair point.

It does circle me back to those first 10 games with Allardyce though, the 5 points achieved over 10 games where many say the personnel were just not good enough and Allardyce had absolutely no chance. While there is merit in that, you only have to look at what another organiser in Dyche has done at Burnley. His first 11 are full of misfits and rejects, players written off as not good enough before. Lowton and Westwood who were written off by Villa fans (and in fairness looked awful in that relegation season), Matej Vydra who has never been able to to crack the premier league, Jay Rodriguez who was relegated with us and who had question marks over him after that relegation and a ton of other players signed from championship sides or relegated prem sides.

It's why I was surprised by just how little he got from the players who were here.

He's been working with them for 5 years, not the 5 weeks Allardyce had with small group training in bubbles and a match every 4 days. You aren't judging comparable scenarios imo.

Do you think that the expectations of the Board, and indeed Allardyce himself, at the time of his appointment were "borderline ridiculous" then?

It was a roll of the dice, the previous manager had lost the plot and this appointment was our very best chance.of survival. But it was never a good chance purely on the numbers required. Without a 3rd team in and around us and Fulham points wise it became an impossible chance.

If we are ultimately relegated, Allardyce both gives us the very best chance of an immediate return while it's also a pretty easy ask based on budget and the general financial and squad states of the rest of the division. Then comes the real benefit. He keeps teams up after he gets them up. Something no Albion manager has ever done in the PL era.

[boinging_along]

I agree. A “cop out” is avoiding or failing to do something you SHOULD do.

There’s no way anyone SHOULD have kept this ramshackle squad in the EPL. It was holed below the waterline before it even set sail.

The facts are - the players are not good enough. Nowhere near good enough.

The evidence is there, plain as day, with well over a year of results and performances under two different coaches in two different divisions. What more exactly do we need to see to prove it?

We can spend hours talking about tactics, selections and the rest - but no amount of re-steering this ship would ever have stopped it from sinking.

Not. Good. Enough.

Nobody has said he *should* have kept us up - just that was what he was hired to do and he's failed.  When Sam took the job at no point did he said there was no chance of keeping us in the Prem, it was all about how we had a good quality in the squad to give us a chance.  All this "nobody would have kept us up" is just revisionsim - when he took the job the aim was very clearly to keep us up.  If he thought 1.24 points per game was impossible with this squad then maybe he should have given the job to somebody who thought it was possible.  So either he thought we could do it, and he's failed, or he knew we couldn't and took the job anyway because he wanted to get paid. 

Anyway, it's not so much the results, it's the performances and the mindset.  It's setting out to get draws against relegation rivals, it's sitting on the edge of your own 18 yard box for most of the match, it's averaging around 30% possession game after game, it's conceding 3+ goals in several games running, it's picking Kanu, it's getting a poor defence to spend 70% of the game defending, it's moaning about the fixture list but not using all your subs, it's watching your goal difference get hammered, it's refusing to play Diangana, it's having a must win game against your rivals and starting with 5 defenders on the pitch and dropping the player who was the catalyst for the few good results.

These aren't unlucky things, or factors of a poor squad, it's the mindset of a manager who still thinks you can defend the edge of your box for 80 mins and nick a goal.  A few good results and performances and suddenly it's like the rest of his tenure didn't happen.  Let's face it, he was forced into the change against Chelsea and we lucked out, we followed that up against Southampton, and then he's very quickly reverted back to "must. defend. goal." even in games where we HAVE to win.

In a must win match, against our local rivals, he starts with 5 defenders on the pitch, and 3 midfielders who are all known to be better defensively.  The only attacking intent on the pitch was Pierera and Diagne.  In a must win match.  I genuinely wouldn't have criticised him if he'd have gone for it and we lost - because we have to go for it.  Likewise I didn't blame him for the team he picked against Leicester.

[boinging_along]

Tell you something, Sam really lucked out getting a job with us - he literally couldn't fail in this appointment. 

[timdon]

Tell you something, Sam really lucked out getting a job with us - he literally couldn't fail in this appointment.

Apart from the fact that he has. But I take your point. As far as some people are concerned, even failure shouldn't be seen as failure. Failure is apparently success. Relegation is apparently success. Allardyce has apparently been successful. Let's keep him. This will apparently ensure promotion next season. All is rosy in the garden it seems.

[baggie82]

I’m 100% convinced relegation is almost totally about the inadequacy of the players we’ve had; it’s much less about tactics or individual selections, which have perhaps made things a bit better or perhaps a bit worse. But the overall picture wouldn’t have changed, whatever tactics were employed. This is a poor team with five wins all season.

I made that point when I opposed sacking our manager mid-season but few on here seemed to agree then. Now we have actually got relegated everyone seems to come around to my way of thinking. Goalposts of many have been shifting all over the place (no you ttree30 I should add).

[Dexy]

Just read Madeleys latest piece in the Athletic , Albion would like Allardyce to stay in the right circumstances .
I still don't think he'll stay but that seems a tiny step nearer .

[baggie82]

Just read Madeleys latest piece in the Athletic , Albion would like Allardyce to stay in the right circumstances .
I still don't think he'll stay but that seems a tiny step nearer .

I hope he stays, I don't see anyone like Chris Wilder or Alex Neil doing a better job and I'm sick of the instability of constantly changing managers and coaching staff.

[hardtobeat]

The 31 points from 25 games part.

That was why he was bought in .He would have known that was close to  being the target so I don't see it as being unreasonable

[caravanc58]

He's been working with them for 5 years, not the 5 weeks Allardyce had with small group training in bubbles and a match every 4 days. You aren't judging comparable scenarios imo.

It was a roll of the dice, the previous manager had lost the plot and this appointment was our very best chance.of survival. But it was never a good chance purely on the numbers required. Without a 3rd team in and around us and Fulham points wise it became an impossible chance.

If we are ultimately relegated, Allardyce both gives us the very best chance of an immediate return while it's also a pretty easy ask based on budget and the general financial and squad states of the rest of the division. Then comes the real benefit. He keeps teams up after he gets them up. Something no Albion manager has ever done in the PL era.

Why does Allardyce give us the very best chance of an immediate return?
We can't discuss future .managers until there's a vacancy so we don't know who is available, so it's just guesswork to suggest Allardyce offers more than anyone else.
He failed to do what he was appointed to do by a long way it's also guesswork to suggest IF he gets us back up he'll keep us up.

[baggiejohn]

Apart from the fact that he has. But I take your point. As far as some people are concerned, even failure shouldn't be seen as failure. Failure is apparently success. Relegation is apparently success. Allardyce has apparently been successful. Let's keep him. This will apparently ensure promotion next season. All is rosy in the garden it seems.

He undoubtedly will want to bring in experienced players (similar to Robert Snodgrass). The transfer fees will probably not be great, but the wages will.

It might be possible to offset some of the cost by offloading some of our more expensive players, but that means there won't be any savings as such. (Replacing one £30,000 a week player with another won't save anything).

He's currently not playing Diangana or Grant, who together are on our books at around £33 million, but relatively low wages. Difficult to see how he's going to motivate either to play well next year.

Next season, under SA, could be quite expensive. Great, if he gets us promoted, risky if he doesn't.

[wbatillidie]

Its not a cop out at all, when you consider the facts [virtually the same team as last year, no real investment] it is fairly evident. We fell apart well over a year ago, and long before BS arrived. He has improved the team with virtually no money which I think is pretty good to be honest. I would like to see him have a real stab at getting us back up next year, but I hope that if he does stay then the board back him.

Playing devils advocate, what do we think we would be doing had we survived in this god forsaken league on goal difference? Another year looking for bargain basement players? Another year of looking forward to the one spectacular result [Chelsea] and wondering where our other four wins will be coming from?, another year of zero investment and no interest from our owner?

I seriously worry about where we are going at the moment. I hope there is a plan.

It is a cop out. The players may not be up to it, but we had the lowest budget in the division. We hired Allardyce as he was seen as a safe pair of hands, to hopefully make us more solid and get more from the players that Bilic couldn't. There was logic in the appointment but he failed on both counts up until the point where it was too late. Why are people so defensive over him? He's done some good things and made plenty of mistakes also. We could do worse than Allardyce but why can't we strive to do better? I don't buy that nobody could have possibly done a better job than him. He set us up to not lose in must win games, he broke the PL record for goals conceded in the first 10 games for a new manager. He lucked out in the Chelsea game and was practically forced to bring Robinson on, I doubt we'd have seen him otherwise. He's ignored players we will be relying on next season. For some reason he's getting all of the credit for our January signings despite them apparently being on a list of targets in the summer. 4 wins in 22 yet he's apparently our only hope.

He's not totally to blame but that doesn't make him blameless either. I don't have a personal agenda against Allardyce, just judging him on what he's achieved, which IMO is not a lot really.