Author Topic: Under 23's / Academy Thread  (Read 360793 times)

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gazberg

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2300 on: October 17, 2021, 03:02:47 PM »
The under 23's came from 1 down to win 2-1 against Boro who had a man sent off in the 60th i think.

Zohore and Cleary on the scoresheet.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2301 on: October 17, 2021, 03:57:34 PM »
The under 23's came from 1 down to win 2-1 against Boro who had a man sent off in the 60th i think.

Zohore and Cleary on the scoresheet.

Good to see Cleary stepping up from the u18s to the  u23s and scoring in the past few weeks. Shame that past experience suggests he is likely to leave so I do wonder why we are helping him put himself in the shop window unless it’s to drum up as much value for a jan sale as possible.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2302 on: October 17, 2021, 04:57:01 PM »
Good to see Cleary stepping up from the u18s to the  u23s and scoring in the past few weeks. Shame that past experience suggests he is likely to leave so I do wonder why we are helping him put himself in the shop window unless it’s to drum up as much value for a jan sale as possible.

Whatever happens I doubt we will see him get to shine here. Most kids see their futures elsewhere it seems and I cant blame them.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2303 on: October 17, 2021, 06:07:41 PM »
Nicely taken goal by Cleary from the highlights. Seems to have something about him for sure. Can he brought into the first team fold in Jan?

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2304 on: October 24, 2021, 02:09:11 PM »
Looking around the leagues, it is curious to see just how terrible the record of the Hopcroft/Harrison era has been in terms of producing actual quality players. For whatever reason our record for producing players at schoolboy level is impeccable and we produce many underage internationals at those levels (both here, and those who go elsewhere). But it is pretty systematic how none of these players seem to stay at anything like those levels.

Rekheem Harper and Kyle Edwards are in and out a mid-table league one side, Louie Barry is also there but isn't even making their squads. Elsewhere Morgan Rogers once a star of England under 17's is isolated to the odd few minutes as a sub at Bournemouth, Jonathan Leko is arguably one of Birmingham's worst signings in recent years, Sam Field has been injured but was a bit part player out on loan last season. Izzy Brown was moved on to Preston on a free after inconsistent loans.

This is only a small subselection, there's a whole lot more youth internationals we've had who've never done anything. The best players our supposedly much heralded academy ultimately produced from schoolboys have been Saido Berahino, who basically has had one good season in his career. Then you have Tyler Roberts who never really does anything but is at least at premier league level.

Given the academy has previously been so highly rated it is food for thought why we produced so many good schoolboys yet here and away from here none of them have made it. Obviously it is hard to produce a premier league player and even the best clubs success ratio isn't high but considering our reputation we still have a particularly poor record. It raises many questions just over why that was. Where we coaching players to excel in certain aspects and neglecting their wider game so when the levels stepped up their flaws became more apparent? Did we focus too much on physicality and these players didn't stand out as they got older?

 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 02:15:27 PM by Dan »

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2305 on: October 24, 2021, 05:09:33 PM »
did Kemar Roofe come through academy ?
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2306 on: October 24, 2021, 05:18:56 PM »
did Kemar Roofe come through academy ?

yes he did.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2307 on: October 24, 2021, 10:53:29 PM »
Looking around the leagues, it is curious to see just how terrible the record of the Hopcroft/Harrison era has been in terms of producing actual quality players. For whatever reason our record for producing players at schoolboy level is impeccable and we produce many underage internationals at those levels (both here, and those who go elsewhere). But it is pretty systematic how none of these players seem to stay at anything like those levels.

Rekheem Harper and Kyle Edwards are in and out a mid-table league one side, Louie Barry is also there but isn't even making their squads. Elsewhere Morgan Rogers once a star of England under 17's is isolated to the odd few minutes as a sub at Bournemouth, Jonathan Leko is arguably one of Birmingham's worst signings in recent years, Sam Field has been injured but was a bit part player out on loan last season. Izzy Brown was moved on to Preston on a free after inconsistent loans.

This is only a small subselection, there's a whole lot more youth internationals we've had who've never done anything. The best players our supposedly much heralded academy ultimately produced from schoolboys have been Saido Berahino, who basically has had one good season in his career. Then you have Tyler Roberts who never really does anything but is at least at premier league level.

Given the academy has previously been so highly rated it is food for thought why we produced so many good schoolboys yet here and away from here none of them have made it. Obviously it is hard to produce a premier league player and even the best clubs success ratio isn't high but considering our reputation we still have a particularly poor record. It raises many questions just over why that was. Where we coaching players to excel in certain aspects and neglecting their wider game so when the levels stepped up their flaws became more apparent? Did we focus too much on physicality and these players didn't stand out as they got older?
[/b]All good questions and some things are hard to explain. Regarding the physicality, there is also the possibility that we didn't focus enough on physicality and that the players are not physically equipped to deal with the step-up to senior football.
Injury has certainly played a part in stalling/ruining the progress of George Thorne, Sam Field, Izzy Brown and now Nathan Ferguson.
This concerns the next generation in a way but I was struck by how physically mature the Villa lads looked compared to ours in the FA youth cup last season. If Louie Barry has been fit then it's a mystery what's happened to him at Ipswich as he certainly looks a talent.
I think it's equally valid to ask about the mental aspect of players coming through the academy system. All clubs will have their bright hopes and it takes the combination of talent, sheer dedication and desire and an element of luck, especially regarding injuries to battle through it in a very competitive world.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2308 on: October 25, 2021, 09:32:03 AM »
yes he did.

So Berahino and Roofe are pretty much the only players who have achieved beyond championship level to date.
A) questionable if Rangers are at a higher level, but do play (breifly) in europe, so give them benefit of the doubt)
B) we all now SB had one season in the sun and then imploded,
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2309 on: October 25, 2021, 10:44:19 AM »
Looking around the leagues, it is curious to see just how terrible the record of the Hopcroft/Harrison era has been in terms of producing actual quality players. For whatever reason our record for producing players at schoolboy level is impeccable and we produce many underage internationals at those levels (both here, and those who go elsewhere). But it is pretty systematic how none of these players seem to stay at anything like those levels.

Rekheem Harper and Kyle Edwards are in and out a mid-table league one side, Louie Barry is also there but isn't even making their squads. Elsewhere Morgan Rogers once a star of England under 17's is isolated to the odd few minutes as a sub at Bournemouth, Jonathan Leko is arguably one of Birmingham's worst signings in recent years, Sam Field has been injured but was a bit part player out on loan last season. Izzy Brown was moved on to Preston on a free after inconsistent loans.

This is only a small subselection, there's a whole lot more youth internationals we've had who've never done anything. The best players our supposedly much heralded academy ultimately produced from schoolboys have been Saido Berahino, who basically has had one good season in his career. Then you have Tyler Roberts who never really does anything but is at least at premier league level.

Given the academy has previously been so highly rated it is food for thought why we produced so many good schoolboys yet here and away from here none of them have made it. Obviously it is hard to produce a premier league player and even the best clubs success ratio isn't high but considering our reputation we still have a particularly poor record. It raises many questions just over why that was. Where we coaching players to excel in certain aspects and neglecting their wider game so when the levels stepped up their flaws became more apparent? Did we focus too much on physicality and these players didn't stand out as they got older?
Not sure about the physicality thing as if you look back to last season particularly the loss to Villa arguably the biggest difference was in size and power. Also it I must be very difficult to forecast how much and how quickly a lad will grow from say 15 to 18
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hardtobeat

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2310 on: October 25, 2021, 10:56:50 AM »
Cleary is obviously a serious prospect but let’s remember he was only onthe U23s bench having come up from U18s. That is a helluva big jump to ask him to fire up a promotion campaign
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2311 on: October 25, 2021, 11:00:13 AM »
Nicely taken goal by Cleary from the highlights. Seems to have something about him for sure. Can he brought into the first team fold in Jan?
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but home produced players of that age don't count in the premier league quota so there would be nothing stopping us picking him now if we wanted to.
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2312 on: October 25, 2021, 11:05:06 AM »
Pretty sure you’re right Adder. There is definitely something about age and home grown players in the rules about squads
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2313 on: October 25, 2021, 01:08:17 PM »
PL2 game live on app and website for STH’s. Leading 1-0 after about 2 mins . Haven’t seen teamsheet but looked like Faal that scored moved started with throw from keeper  ;) ;)
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2314 on: October 25, 2021, 03:02:20 PM »
1-1 ft against Stoke

johnny Cash

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2315 on: October 25, 2021, 06:51:20 PM »
Cleary is obviously a serious prospect but let’s remember he was only onthe U23s bench having come up from U18s. That is a helluva big jump to ask him to fire up a promotion campaign

He may have been on the bench today, but he has started and scored for the u23s.

After today, his record is 8 goals in 5 games for the under 18s and 3 goals in 4 games for the u23s. His under 23 goals are in just 169 minutes.

It is a massive jump though.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2316 on: October 29, 2021, 09:19:39 AM »
Mentioned on the BBC Football Gossip that Chelsea are sniffing round this 16 year old lad of ours before he signs pro forms with us. Here we go again?!!

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2317 on: October 29, 2021, 09:33:43 AM »
Mentioned on the BBC Football Gossip that Chelsea are sniffing round this 16 year old lad of ours before he signs pro forms with us. Here we go again?!!

2 words of advice to him "Izzy Brown"
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2318 on: October 29, 2021, 10:33:29 AM »
Mentioned on the BBC Football Gossip that Chelsea are sniffing round this 16 year old lad of ours before he signs pro forms with us. Here we go again?!!

Leo Cardoso. He's 15 actually but plays up. And I'm not exaggerating when I say EVERY big club in Europe is after him.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2319 on: October 29, 2021, 01:41:42 PM »
We need to make him and his advisors an offer they cannot refuse.
ie. Sign a 4 year pro contract at a very good rate per week with a set (£x millions) release clause after two years. Or, do not sign and we will be within our rights to charge a commensurate sum (£x millions) from you and your representatives for our part in your football development to this stage.

I'm sure legal brains could develop something along these lines to ensure clubs like us are no longer sitting ducks to 'big' clubs', who tempt kids with what seems to the kids to be big money, but is in fact a pittance to clubs like Chelsea. These clubs then often let the kids stagnate in their third team whilst they buy in more developed talent from abroad. 

Oh and ffs make sure we get any cash up front in future!!!

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2320 on: October 29, 2021, 01:51:56 PM »
We need to make him and his advisors an offer they cannot refuse.
ie. Sign a 4 year pro contract at a very good rate per week with a set (£x millions) release clause after two years. Or, do not sign and we will be within our rights to charge a commensurate sum (£x millions) from you and your representatives for our part in your football development to this stage.

I'm sure legal brains could develop something along these lines to ensure clubs like us are no longer sitting ducks to 'big' clubs', who tempt kids with what seems to the kids to be big money, but is in fact a pittance to clubs like Chelsea. These clubs then often let the kids stagnate in their third team whilst they buy in more developed talent from abroad. 

Oh and ffs make sure we get any cash up front in future!!!

No chance of the highlighted bit, its a rigged game even at that level, underwritten by the "sports" ruling bodies, play by their rules or don't play, end of !
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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2321 on: October 29, 2021, 08:57:42 PM »
No chance of the highlighted bit, its a rigged game even at that level, underwritten by the "sports" ruling bodies, play by their rules or don't play, end of !

Unfortunately true. Needs to be challenged though, but how? There are surely more of us than them, but at the moment they hold the power. How can we as supporters of the game that provides their luxurious and decadent lifestyles, change the balance- have we any weapons at all? My own thought processes only tend to involve some rather violent outcomes that I have neither the means nor finances to support. Anybody with real brains out there with ideas on what we should be pushing for/demanding, and how we might go about attaining the objectives.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2322 on: October 29, 2021, 09:53:43 PM »
In the short term, as bad as it sounds, we should just be doing our best to poach the best available similar aged players from teams below us in the pyramid.

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2323 on: October 29, 2021, 11:03:14 PM »
Mentioned on the BBC Football Gossip that Chelsea are sniffing round this 16 year old lad of ours before he signs pro forms with us. Here we go again?!!
He'd be daft if he went to Chelsea. He'd be about No.48 in the pecking order there. Chelsea loanees are spread all around the lower leagues here and a few in Europe.
Einstein: A definition of insanity- someone who takes the same action time after time, even though previously it's always ended in failure

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Re: Under 23's / Academy Thread
« Reply #2324 on: October 30, 2021, 11:05:18 AM »
He'd be daft if he went to Chelsea. He'd be about No.48 in the pecking order there. Chelsea loanees are spread all around the lower leagues here and a few in Europe.

If he moves for career progression or 'football reasons' the he certainly would be daft. But I doubt you can stop a young player moving if he is offered what he thinks is a lot of money immediately regardless of where in the pecking order he will be.

For me the issue is not just about holding on to our good young prospects, it is also about getting appropriate financial compensation for the time and effort in getting them to that stage, and for the loss of any future benefits in performance or sales.