Author Topic: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach  (Read 93433 times)

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iwastherein68

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1125 on: October 21, 2021, 02:41:21 PM »
People of a certain age will remember when we used to sing.
Poor old "anybody", cant play football.
This aint fooball, this is **** all
Very apt today I feel, and down to VI.
Our squad is not very good and has no gifted players, but they can play better football than this garbage.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 02:53:24 PM by iwastherein68 »
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baggie82

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1126 on: October 21, 2021, 03:11:45 PM »
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/10/20/valerien-ismael-disappointed-with-west-brom-defeat/ "My expectation is that we come quickly into the final third and that we push the line high and have an aggressive defence so that the opponent cannot push out of pressure. We didn’t make it well, and it’s the reason Swansea came back in the game and they started better in the second half."You need to find a way to stay compact and organised."

I think VI analysis is broadly correct, Swansea had all the time in the world to pick the ball up around the half-way line and to launch it in-behind our defence, second half we failed to close them down and failed to press them to stop them picking their balls over the top. This was particularly the case down our right hand side where Furlong and Phillips were terrible.

baggie82

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1127 on: October 21, 2021, 03:13:37 PM »
The way we played under Big Sam was better than this.

Not the collection of games at the start when we lost four or five games with a consecutive scoreline of 25-0 or something. Then we got our act together a little after we signed better players in January. This current team however is far inferior to the resources that Big Sam had to choose from. That was clear last night, you could see how ordinary we looked as soon as Mowat was not playing.

zippyandbungle

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1128 on: October 21, 2021, 03:33:34 PM »
And some of the fans defending this garbage are the ones who criticised Allardyce (in a better division) and Wilder in the summer for their styles.

This is worse.
Just to be clear
I don’t like allardyce due to his lack of respect for the England job/various issues relating to overspending…not just tactics
I wouldn’t have taken wilder because I belive he is too stubborn, I also wouldn’t have gone after the manager we now have …
It’s great that many are responding to very fair critics of playing style/failure to change…with “We sold Pererira cheap” or “we are third”…..but they are not fair objections to a real lack of a fresh option or change in tactics
Pererira was going regardless, him and his agents engineered it and we had a few good years out of him before getting 3x what we paid …., add in that even if we got 300m for him, the same fans would be crying that the board wouldn’t spend it anyway ..so leave it there .
The fact that we are 3rd , matters not……we could and should be top , that’s not arrogance, that’s an understanding that we have had opportunities against some pretty tripe opposition to get the points, we somehow conspired not to
The same substitutions at the same times, the embarrassing fan noise when we get a long throw (oh the irony of when we mocked Stoke) the failure to actually be able to adapt ….
By all means , you can all bang the drum about it’s too soon ….but if it ain’t going to work , earlier is always better ?

If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1129 on: October 21, 2021, 03:40:01 PM »
One thing that Pulisball and Valball have in common is that it's misery for forwards  - particularly those with any talent.  On the one hand they hardly ever get a ball to feet from the back or midfield; they have to go chasing it, on the other hand, they have to chase the ball as it's switched between defenders and goalie - no wonder they're shattered after 60 mins.  It's as wretched for them as it is for us watching.

I would rather be a mid-table Championship club watching young players half from the academy , half inspired / stats-led picks playing to feet with a morsel of elan rather than this.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 04:23:03 PM by NJS »
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baggie82

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1130 on: October 21, 2021, 04:23:02 PM »
One thing that Pulisball and Valball have in common is that it's misery for forwards  - particularly those with any talent.  On the one hand they hardly ever get a ball to feet from the back or midfield; they have to go chasing it, on the other hand, they have to chase the ball as it's switched between defenders and goalie - no wonder they're shattered after 60 mins.  It's as wretched for them as it is for us watching.

I would rather be a mid-table Championship club watching yound players half from the academy , half inspired / stats-led picks playing to feet with a morsel of elan rather than this.

I don't agree as we have scored and created plenty which is nothing like a Pulis team and I don't think our forwards are particularly shattered after an hour either, but the manager has his thing, he likes to make changes. Back-fired big time last night and Robinson was understandably annoyed to be subbed.

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1131 on: October 21, 2021, 05:07:08 PM »
Not the collection of games at the start when we lost four or five games with a consecutive scoreline of 25-0 or something. Then we got our act together a little after we signed better players in January. This current team however is far inferior to the resources that Big Sam had to choose from. That was clear last night, you could see how ordinary we looked as soon as Mowat was not playing.

Sam only spent about £4m including wages for the half season. It's not like he was Man City'ing it.

GREGMT

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1132 on: October 21, 2021, 06:09:37 PM »
Hardly anyone is bemoaning the actual quality of the midfield in passing the football, they obviously haven't got the technical skill to play champagne football demanded on here.

Why would Ismael tell someone to just lump it, you wouldn't, and not even Barnsley did that.  The biggest cumprits in being uncomfortable in possession are Bartley and Livermore. Yokuslu would go a long way to fixing it.

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1133 on: October 21, 2021, 06:54:52 PM »
Hardly anyone is bemoaning the actual quality of the midfield in passing the football, they obviously haven't got the technical skill to play champagne football demanded on here.

Why would Ismael tell someone to just lump it, you wouldn't, and not even Barnsley did that.  The biggest cumprits in being uncomfortable in possession are Bartley and Livermore. Yokuslu would go a long way to fixing it.

Champagne football. My word. It’s called a middle ground.

His comments last night are everything I need to know - “get to the final third quickly”.

Nothing around our quality, our lack of control. Just we need to get there quicker.

You keep banging the Yokuslu drum and whilst being a better defensive midfielder than Livermore, he does not transform this team. He’s just an upgrade on getting that ball forward quicker.
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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1134 on: October 21, 2021, 07:06:03 PM »
Staggering across various platforms to see all the “ we’d be top of the league with Allardyce “ “ Allardyce would get us promoted easily “ etc etc. Well one bloke thought he couldn’t or else he wouldn’t have turned the job down! Will never be convinced otherwise !!
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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1135 on: October 21, 2021, 07:17:50 PM »
And some of the fans defending this garbage are the ones who criticised Allardyce (in a better division) and Wilder in the summer for their styles.

This is worse.
I'm not inclined to get into another who's better/worse than who debate after the long-running and ultimately banned Bilic v Allardyce saga but, as someone who was (and still is) very critical of Allardyce, I'm also not happy with our current level of performance either. Where we were averaging 17+ shots per game until about 4 weeks ago, we've now been reduced to about 10 or 11 per game, with not many on target, and we should be doing better than that if this style of play is working properly.

However, one thing that Valerien did say about last night that's worth emphasising is "we started the game well - good pressing, we forced a lot of long balls, Swansea didn't create a big chance. Our problem throughout the game was our transition. We didn't keep the ball". This does suggest that "hoof it and then run after it" isn't how he wants things to be.

It does need to improve quickly though, as it hasn't been good enough for weeks now. Having said that, only having 4 forwards available, as is the case at present, isn't sufficient if we want to a) have consistent high pressing and b) have proper options to change things around upfront. The forwards will get tired unless we can rotate them more readily than we can at present.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 09:40:46 AM by WorcsWBA »


GREGMT

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1137 on: October 21, 2021, 08:18:13 PM »
Champagne football. My word. It’s called a middle ground.

His comments last night are everything I need to know - “get to the final third quickly”.

Nothing around our quality, our lack of control. Just we need to get there quicker.

You keep banging the Yokuslu drum and whilst being a better defensive midfielder than Livermore, he does not transform this team. He’s just an upgrade on getting that ball forward quicker.

So let's get straight, if we changed Manager right now, our midfield is Top 2 material and we can achieve automatic?  Because I just don't see it.  We don't pass the ball well enough.  Yokuslu for Livermore would make a world of difference because his distribution is x10 better.

As for this "getting the ball quickly" its just a lazy statement, I remember us hammering Derby and passing them off the park, we just didn't score.

Against Stoke and Swansea they passed the ball better than us, you would say the likes of Patterson and Allen are better at passing than our men.

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1138 on: October 21, 2021, 08:22:01 PM »
Simple really. Val has to adapt. Too many poor performances to note already this season. I’ve seen no signs of Val having the intuition to really change tactics when we’ve needed him to.

On a side note though, I really do feel the board made a grave mistake in signing Jordan Hugill on loan. That was absolutely NOT the striker we needed.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 08:23:45 PM by PartisanBaggie »

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1139 on: October 21, 2021, 10:04:44 PM »
I can't believe that anyone thinks our current problems are down to Livermore's distribution.  Our getting the ball forward doesn't consist of getting it to anyone in CM, it's all about the defence hitting it into the corners.  If we want to improve our distribution we need to look at Bartley/Ajayi.  The CM's jobs are to get after the second ball.

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1140 on: October 21, 2021, 10:25:01 PM »
Staggering across various platforms to see all the “ we’d be top of the league with Allardyce “ “ Allardyce would get us promoted easily “ etc etc. Well one bloke thought he couldn’t or else he wouldn’t have turned the job down! Will never be convinced otherwise !!
He knew the reality was that he’d have to try with 13 leaving and that there was nothing in the kitty to replace them. He didn’t fancy a ridiculously difficult task and knew there would be no backing. He knew that many of the players that IV is relying on weren’t up to the task.

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1141 on: October 22, 2021, 12:14:33 AM »
What’s Ted Lasso up to these days?
What have we done?
And what have we become?
In this distance from our Mother
To the gates of late Eden

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1142 on: October 22, 2021, 05:22:39 AM »
I can't believe that anyone thinks our current problems are down to Livermore's distribution.  Our getting the ball forward doesn't consist of getting it to anyone in CM, it's all about the defence hitting it into the corners.  If we want to improve our distribution we need to look at Bartley/Ajayi.  The CM's jobs are to get after the second ball.
Thats it exactly , there's a hint of rugby in these tactics . Its exactly what Barnsley did under Val .
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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1143 on: October 22, 2021, 06:46:46 AM »
Thats it exactly , there's a hint of rugby in these tactics . Its exactly what Barnsley did under Val .

Think this hits the nail on the head.

In this day and age, is there really any need to go out with such tedious tactics? It’s not as though we are playing top class opposition every week and for a club that’s just dropped out of the Prem we shouldn’t be adopting this approach.

Unfortunately the club seems to be stuck in a bit of a cross roads at the moment, the ultimate aim is promotion which is all well and good but what’s the point when we capitulate in that league? There needs to be a sense of enjoyment in football at some point otherwise for me as a supporter it’s just going through the motions.

One thing I will say in Val’s defence is that this is probably the poorest squad we have had since the Gary Megaon days. It comes to something when a free transfer from Barnsley is head and shoulders above anything else we have.

Hopefully in January we address the need for a centre forward and in the very near future Diangana improves.

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1144 on: October 22, 2021, 08:31:57 AM »
Looking forward to January where VI may dip into the NFL and sign a couple of 'Punters'.

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1145 on: October 22, 2021, 08:57:35 AM »
I'm not inclined to get into another who's better/worse than who debate after the long-running and ultimately banned Bilic v Allardyce saga but, as someone who was (and still is) very critical of Allardyce, I'm also not happy with our current level of performance either. Where we were averaging 17+ shots per game until about 4 weeks ago, we've now been reduced to about 10 or 11 per game, with not many on target, and we should be doing better than that if this style of play is working properly.

However, one thing that Valerien did say about last night that's worth emphasising is "we started the game well - good pressing, we forced a lot of long balls, Swansea didn't create a big chance. Our problem throughout the game was our transition. We didn't keep the ball". This does suggest that "hoof it and then run after it" isn't how he wants things to be.

It does need to improve quickly though, as it hasn't been good enough for weeks now. Having said that, only having 4 forwards available, as is the case at present, isn't sufficient if we want to a) have consistent high pressing and b) have proper options to change things around upfront. The forwards will get tired until unless we can rotate them more readily than we can at present.
This is the issue for me, he is trying to implement a hybrid where we get it forward quickly, when the opportunity is there, or, if not, we retain possession and transition through the middle. Not a bad plan, if the players are on board and able. At the minute, it seems they are struggling and are doing neither very well which means the high line leaves us incredibly vulnerable. So, he either perseveres, sticks to his guns and works their nads off in training or he reverts back to kick n rush.
Personally, I think the hybrid will be better long term and certainly easier on the eye, just depends if we have the patience to accept poor performances along the way.

Many on here bemoan the lack of a long term vision, perhaps we need to give him time.

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1146 on: October 22, 2021, 11:32:00 AM »
This is the issue for me, he is trying to implement a hybrid where we get it forward quickly, when the opportunity is there, or, if not, we retain possession and transition through the middle. Not a bad plan, if the players are on board and able. At the minute, it seems they are struggling and are doing neither very well which means the high line leaves us incredibly vulnerable. So, he either perseveres, sticks to his guns and works their nads off in training or he reverts back to kick n rush.
Personally, I think the hybrid will be better long term and certainly easier on the eye, just depends if we have the patience to accept poor performances along the way.

Many on here bemoan the lack of a long term vision, perhaps we need to give him time.

If he manages to transition to a more "suitable" approach thats fantastic BUT all the noise from him suggests thats not the direction of travel. If he is adamant that its this kick and rush stuff without compromise, he is going to get drummed out fairly quickly and the 4 year plan will go with him.
When he joined I posted that we as fans will have to be patient when the inevitable difficult patch comes, I stand by that, BUT, I had not anticipated how spectacularly awful the football would be.  His problem is that awful football will be tolerated while it gets results, once results go, it has a very, very short lifespan of acceptance.  At Barnsley any results were an improvement, here it is so different and he has to either prove us all wrong or compromise.

I cant see him doing either to be honest, but we have to be patient or the numpties at the top will go into chop and change mode again and that is a guaranteed recipe for failure.
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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1147 on: October 22, 2021, 12:44:42 PM »
Val has a pass this season, unless we plummit towards the bottom of the league, hes a long term prject and hopefully rhe board treat him so. We hardly have any family jewels to plunder (johnstone and townsend aside i cant see much intrest in our squad) so if we dont go up this year its not a total disaster.

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1148 on: October 22, 2021, 01:07:22 PM »
I've got my doubts over VI. Love how he has been off the pitch, but I've yet to be sold on the pitch and in that respect my opinion hasnt changed.

The big frustration for me at the moment, is that it seems so close to something that could work really well.

Keep the press, swarm and be aggressive out of possession. The way we were in the first few games.  That'll work just find at this level. VI can set this up well.

Once we win the ball, adopt a 60/40 approach.  60% of the time, play through the lines and keep the ball on the deck. Mix up being patient and passing it around on the floor, with moving quickly when you have numerical advantages or space.
The other 40% of the time, try the long balls in to channels.  We have the players at this level to do both, and the unpredictability will cause teams problems.

We have to give the players the authority and trust to do this, but it also needs a bit of football intelligence, which again, we should be capable of at this level.

If we did that, we could get away without a proper 9 for the time being. There's nothing in the above that our squad shouldn't be capable of implementing in my opinion.

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Re: Valérien Ismaël - Head Coach
« Reply #1149 on: October 22, 2021, 01:26:28 PM »
I think the problem we've got is the players aren't physically capable of maintaining the press. With that in mind we're looking to press and play in phases.

Unfortunately some of the players are clearly pressing and playing out of synch' with their teammates. They're getting caught in two minds and the result is a disjointed hotch potch of a team pattern. When it clicks it clicks.

We just need to click more often than we have of late. A lot more. Let's face it, given we get the ball forward quickly from the back it was never going to be pretty with Bartley and Ajayi's blindfold sling shot approach to passing.

Work in progress......
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