[wbatillidie]

You know why we were so good last time under Bilic, it was because we had a footballing technician on a very high level, that even excelled last season in a very poor team.  He was 10/10 last season,almost perfection.

Livermore (and others) are getting found out for their true level.  This man Ismael is a good football manager, Barnsley proves it.  If the fans wanted to uphold the true footballing  culture of WBA, we'd have never gone for SA (plus Dingle connections).  We are moaning about style of play now, yet abandoned all principles with the SA appointment.

A good football manager will adapt to what is happening on the pitch. Thus far for whatever reason he has chosen not to. These players are not perfect but they are capable of more than this. Livermore should have been replaced, but the manager likes him. He knows he can't play a defence splitting pass, but he doesn't care because he runs around a lot. These are all his decisions and he is rightly being called out for them. It's still early days and he has time on his hands but there's some seriously worrying signs currently.

Swansea quickly adapted tonight after a terrible start and found a way of hurting us with diagonal balls to beat the high line. There were so many warnings signs that their attacker was going to get in on goal and we did nothing.

[Dexy]

It's not that simplistic otherwise he'd sign Johan Blake and Usain Bolt to play centre mid and ignore any notion of footballing skill in that area!

The point is Livermore is vastly overrated by most of our fans.  He is the elephant in the room.

You can't just pin all the blame on the Manager IMO.

One bloke sets us out like this , one bloke keeps picking the same players . The same bloke won't change tactics and the knocking up the sides comes from one bloke. When its good and we put 3 passes of intent together I'll praise Val, most of this season its been dull at best for me.
As I  posted elsewhere I think we haven't seen what Mowett is really capable of as the ball misses his feet too much for my liking .

[iwastherein68]

Dowling warned against this appointment, and sadly for us his opinion was correct. i never ever thought that our squad was suitable for Ismael's style, and he has only added workhouses to the group. I dread to think where the people running my club will take us next.

[TheBaggieMan]

Who would you rather have as Head Coach?
Slaven Bilic? Sam Allardyce? Valerian Ismael?

Many posters on this site at very fickle.
Win the next couple of games and Ismael will be the greatest thing since McDonalds invented the Sausage and Egg McMuffin! 

Perhaps someone should start an ‘Ishmael Out’ campaign and sit blocking the M5 access roads as a mark of protest.

😜

[Maresca Was A Baggie]

VI was never our main target, but in the end he was given the role, I guess because he did a good job with a very limited budget at Barnsley. This is NOT a good reason to offer a man a job. Did anyone in the board room take into account the type of player he had, and what type of player we have? Too many managers only have a Plan A, and VI is one of them. If you don't adapt you will get stiffled, as we have seen in recent games. And his comment about not needing quality but rather the 'right type' of player is odd to say the least. This is akin to buying an F1 team and putting me behind the wheel. Yes I can drive, but not at that level. I fear this will end badly, some time early in the new year if VI doesn't change. My grandson (18 months) has just learnt that square pegs don't go into round holes - Lets hope VI does very soon.

[skyclad99]

VI was never our main target, but in the end he was given the role, I guess because he did a good job with a very limited budget at Barnsley. This is NOT a good reason to offer a man a job. Did anyone in the board room take into account the type of player he had, and what type of player we have? Too many managers only have a Plan A, and VI is one of them. If you don't adapt you will get stiffled, as we have seen in recent games. And his comment about not needing quality but rather the 'right type' of player is odd to say the least. This is akin to buying an F1 team and putting me behind the wheel. Yes I can drive, but not at that level. I fear this will end badly, some time early in the new year if VI doesn't change. My grandson (18 months) has just learnt that square pegs don't go into round holes - Lets hope VI does very soon.

So who was our main target?

On your second point this happened when we appointed Allardyce as well which just goes to show how little our esteemed leader and board know about football.

[Maresca Was A Baggie]

Our last 8 games have seen us pick up 12 points, mainly against poor lower league opposition. Thats mid table form at best. I'm not being big headed when i say this squad should be comfortably top 2. I think Fulham and Bournemouth are favourites to go up, and then its a complete lottery after that. These players are being let down by VI with his insistence on this horrible playing style. Would any similar manager go into Liverpool and try the same thing, to completely change the style of football away from what suits the squad to something totally different? VI needs to adapt, not the players.

[Droitwich Baggie]

He is too rigid in his plan. He seems to be unable to change the system according to how the game is going.

[mulliganstired]

He is too rigid in his plan. He seems to be unable to change the system according to how the game is going.

And now everyone has worked out the plan.  Now we will.fund out what he is made of.

[Atomic]

If you have a problem with the press then surely it is common sense for the whole team to concede 20 yards or so. Instead we had a high line with no pressure on the ball. Recipe for disaster.

The persistence in continuing with something that wasnt working is naivety of the highest order.

That's what a number of modern day head coaches do including Guardiola. Their plan B is to make plan A better. It may be stubborn but it isn't necessarily naive.

Val has his way of playing and he won't be changing it. You can see why he said he didn't want the "best" players he needs the "right" players. Unfortunately he doesn't have them in certain areas.

This isn't a short term process.

[kris_boing]

Very much a long term project. Signed a 4 year contract and paid £2.5mil for him.


Crazy decision by those in charge.

[gazberg]

Very much a long term project. Signed a 4 year contract and paid £2.5mil for him.


Crazy decision by those in charge.

Thing is we don't have the money for a long term project

[baggiemart]

Here we go again.

On the managers back again just like Albion fans do when things Don't go to plan.

Carry on this way and we'll be worse than the Newcastle fans !!!

The blame should not be aimed at the manager.

The club spent zero in the last transfer window and released a load of players. We pulled in a couple of loans and free transfers but basically for a club like us , that was not good enough.

We are one of the biggest clubs in the championship so we should start acting that way when we do our transfer dealings. Its no good going for the likes of Hugill, we should be looking at the top strikers in the championship and league 1.

I think we are not doing that because the hierarchy do not want to spend money. We have probably got one of the smallest capable squads in the division. That showed last night when we made 3 subs in the second half and we brought on Hugill ( one of the worst strikers this club has ever seen), Snodgrass ( a mid 30's past it midfielder) and Reach ( a free from a club relegated from the championship).  Not exactly game changing players !!!

Then you have got to look at the players. Ismael can't be blamed for the terrible pass from Furlong which resulted in one of the Swansea goals.

Also lets face facts, we were struggling to get a manager last time probably because of our poor record of sacking managers in the past. A record that is on a par with Sunderland and look what happened to them.

[boinging_along]

You can't seriously believe we have one of the smallest, capable squads in this division? 

Yes, we haven't spent much, but I don't think that's the issue.  Our issue is the tactics, they've been found out and teams are combatting them.  Sure, sometimes it still works, but all too often we're left just hitting up and unders and hoping we pick  up the second ball.  That's all our tactics are.

Add to that the manager doesn't have a plan B, isn't interested in one, has predefined subs and won't react to the opposition in any way, then *that's* why the manager is getting flack.

A team of..
                      SJ
Furlong    Clarke   Bartley      Townsend
Phillips   Mowatt   Livermore  Diangana
            Robinson    Grant

while having weak spots is stronger than all but 1 or 2 clubs in this division.

[skyclad99]

Baggiesmart - you say 'here we go again, blaming the manager', but who else is responsible for team selection, tactics and substitutions? Its fine blaming the club for not spending, but we have no money apparently and WBA do not do borrowing.

With Pulis you knew what the plan was, with Allardyce you knew what the plan was. I don't know about you but I have no real idea what VI's plan is other than swarm the opposition in their own half and hoof the ball up from the back. Given that option A of the club spending loads of money is off the table, what's your solution to this shambolic fare we are witnessing on a regular basis?

Oh, and I would not want to meet Snodgrass down a dark alley and tell him he is 'past it'....

The last few performances sit firmly with VI, no one else.

[baggiemart]

You can't seriously believe we have one of the smallest, capable squads in this division? 

Yes, we haven't spent much, but I don't think that's the issue.  Our issue is the tactics, they've been found out and teams are combatting them.  Sure, sometimes it still works, but all too often we're left just hitting up and unders and hoping we pick  up the second ball.  That's all our tactics are.

Add to that the manager doesn't have a plan B, isn't interested in one, has predefined subs and won't react to the opposition in any way, then *that's* why the manager is getting flack.

A team of..
                      SJ
Furlong    Clarke   Bartley      Townsend
Phillips   Mowatt   Livermore  Diangana
            Robinson    Grant

while having weak spots is stronger than all but 1 or 2 clubs in this division.

No longer is a football clubs performance determined by their starting 11, its about a squad.

Yes I agree its one of the best starting  11 in the division but after those 11 players we haven't got much else.

What happens when you get injuries and suspensions or when you want to change a game by bringing on match changing subs, we can't accomodate that . Your season is  determined by the strength of your squad rather than the strength of your starting 11.

[baggiemart]

Baggiesmart - you say 'here we go again, blaming the manager', but who else is responsible for team selection, tactics and substitutions? Its fine blaming the club for not spending, but we have no money apparently and WBA do not do borrowing.

With Pulis you knew what the plan was, with Allardyce you knew what the plan was. I don't know about you but I have no real idea what VI's plan is other than swarm the opposition in their own half and hoof the ball up from the back. Given that option A of the club spending loads of money is off the table, what's your solution to this shambolic fare we are witnessing on a regular basis?

Oh, and I would not want to meet Snodgrass down a dark alley and tell him he is 'past it'....

The last few performances sit firmly with VI, no one else.

Today's football is all about money nothing else. Why are Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd always at the top of the table because they spend money. I wouldn't say those  4 managers are the best in the league.

We can't compete with those big hitters but we should be the championship equivalent of those teams. We have just been relegated from the premiership, we just sold our best player for £17 million, we have just got rid of nearly 15 players off the payroll. Financially we are probably better off than most teams in the division but when we go into the transfer market we are acting like something from Oliver Twist, surviving on the scraps nobody else wants like Hugill and Reach.

If we are pleading that we have no money perhaps we should be asking where has it gone !!!  We were in the premiership for 9 years without really spending loads of money.

Perhaps Ismael plays those tactics because the players aren't capable of anything else. Oh and by the way I didn't hear many people complaining about his tactics after about 4 or 5 games. 

[leeiswba]

Seen a few people saying that we don't have the players to play the system which I agree with, surely though it is then down to the manager to adapt his tactics to suit the players not just keep playing one way where its clear they don't suit

[seteefeet]

Today's football is all about money nothing else. Why are Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd always at the top of the table because they spend money. I wouldn't say those  4 managers are the best in the league.

We can't compete with those big hitters but we should be the championship equivalent of those teams. We have just been relegated from the premiership, we just sold our best player for £17 million, we have just got rid of nearly 15 players off the payroll. Financially we are probably better off than most teams in the division but when we go into the transfer market we are acting like something from Oliver Twist, surviving on the scraps nobody else wants like Hugill and Reach.

If we are pleading that we have no money perhaps we should be asking where has it gone !!!  We were in the premiership for 9 years without really spending loads of money.

Perhaps Ismael plays those tactics because the players aren't capable of anything else. Oh and by the way I didn't hear many people complaining about his tactics after about 4 or 5 games.

Last night's tactics were unrecognisable from those of the first 4 or 5 games. Whilst the high line remains, the press has gone, which means we are vulnerable to the ball over the top, but are not pressurising their defence, which makes it easier for them to carry out, said ball over the top. You can't have one without the other. If we are not committed to the press then we can't keep such a high line, that's basics for me.

I agree we have deficiencies in the squad and recruitment was poor but, IMO, Ish is no longer getting the best out of this group. If his system doesn't suit them, for whatever reason, he has to adapt. None of Grant, Furlong or Livermore etc. will get the sack if he fails, he will, so blaming the players is moot. To be fair, I think he was trying to tweak things slightly, as a reaction to Milwall and Derby etc. but has now got himself into a muddle with some sort of monstrous hybrid. Hopefully, last night was the pinnacle of how poor we can be and we will get back to basics in training.

[Hunnington Baggie]

Seen a few people saying that we don't have the players to play the system which I agree with, surely though it is then down to the manager to adapt his tactics to suit the players not just keep playing one way where its clear they don't suit

depends on the Manager, Klopp is the classic example of someone who will force players to play his way rather than manage around their weaknesses.

[paulosull]

Think the players he consistently uses look dead on their feet at the minute especially our front three Robinson seems to be running in treacle granted balls flying over his head didn’t help.

[boinging_along]

No longer is a football clubs performance determined by their starting 11, its about a squad.

Yes I agree its one of the best starting  11 in the division but after those 11 players we haven't got much else.

What happens when you get injuries and suspensions or when you want to change a game by bringing on match changing subs, we can't accomodate that . Your season is  determined by the strength of your squad rather than the strength of your starting 11.

Ok, add the squad to it - it doesn't change much unless you think there's twenty-odd teams in the Championship who have AMAZING benches.  I'm pretty sure Peterbrough's bench is going to be quite poor in relation to their first choice team.   

The reason I listed that team because, on paper, there's nothing wrong with it.  Defence has errors in it but we're pretty strong all over the pitch there and I'd expect us to give every other team in the division a tough game with that lineup and just 'normal' tactics.

What we're doing is allowing Val to drag the attributes of the squad down towards midtable level. He's not getting the best out of the players in my opinion.  While his tactics worked early on, and will no doubt come good in a few more games, on the whole it's making football look like a very difficult game.

[seteefeet]

Think the players he consistently uses look dead on their feet at the minute especially our front three Robinson seems to be running in treacle granted balls flying over his head didn’t help.

Think Furlong has played every game. May be the reason he looked like a zombie last night.

That's the problem with pre-defined subs, sometimes you need to react to performance. If he had pulled Furlong last night, we may not have lost, we may also have seen that we have a viable young alternative on the bench.

[skyclad99]

Today's football is all about money nothing else. Why are Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd always at the top of the table because they spend money. I wouldn't say those  4 managers are the best in the league.

We can't compete with those big hitters but we should be the championship equivalent of those teams. We have just been relegated from the premiership, we just sold our best player for £17 million, we have just got rid of nearly 15 players off the payroll. Financially we are probably better off than most teams in the division but when we go into the transfer market we are acting like something from Oliver Twist, surviving on the scraps nobody else wants like Hugill and Reach.

If we are pleading that we have no money perhaps we should be asking where has it gone !!!  We were in the premiership for 9 years without really spending loads of money.

Perhaps Ismael plays those tactics because the players aren't capable of anything else. Oh and by the way I didn't hear many people complaining about his tactics after about 4 or 5 games.

There has been much speculation in the past about this. My basic take on it is that Williams and Pulis spent it like they were lottery winners, Jenkins came in, identified the issue and shored up the finances, then left. I am not going to drill down to the exact figures but I imagine that the majority goes on club wages, and what's left [if there is any] either buys the tea club biscuits, or it may go 'elsewhere' 

'The money was just resting in my account'

[Albion79]

For my personal interests, Val is suffering a bit from us having Pulis, Pardew and Allardyce as managers within the last few years.

Ask most football fans in the top two leagues who would be in their top 5 managers who they wouldnt want for football entertainment and those 3 would probably feature, we didnt just have 1, we had all 3!

The Pulis years really sucked the enjoyment out of going the Albion for me, it was effective to a point but football is supposed to have some form of entertainment. The Pardew era was just embarrassing and we got Allardyce and for one reason or another never even got to see the benefits of his football, we were caught in between most of the time which made things even worse.

I think if we hadnt had those three managers i may feel different to the way Val goes about things, but as a football fan i would like some enjoyment back at games, we have been and done it with nothing matters but the result, to me there has to be something more, especially at this level.

The early signs were good under Val but once teams sussed us out, they were always going to change against us, on paper we have a very strong championship squad, players such as Furlong, Ajayi, Bartley were getting us promoted a couple of years ago, the likes of Phillips, Snodgrass and Livermore have spent large periods of their career in the premier league, Mowatt was in the team of the year last year i think, Grant scored 24 goals two seasons ago, Robinson earnt himself a £5m million to the prem due to his championship form, Townsend has probably been our most improved player the last two years and two years ago, Grady looked far too good for this level, and we have Englands number two keeper!

Now a lot of those wont be  / may not be good enough for the premier league but for where are now, they are better than most, we are newly relegated so teams once they saw how we played wasnt going to bend over backwards to help.

Since the Peterboro game, we do seem to rely on a moment of brilliance to bail us out, its a shame because on the very few occasions we have tried to play with some flair and creativity, we have looked good.

The players do seem to be under instructions as soon as they get the ball to move it on, thats fine as a  main approach but it doesnt have to be every time, i am not a fan of passing for the sake of it but there is nothing wrong with passing the ball, trying to lure the opposition out and playing through them from time to time, as well as the more direct approach, give them something to think about because at the moment every team knows how we will play, opposition managers before games even say they know what to expect.

I dont want Val sacked or anything like that, we cant keep doing that, i do expect us to finish around the top 6 because i think we will bully enough teams to get us there, and if we go up, i dont think the owners will really care what style we play.

The commentator said last night Val played this way in his last game for Wolfsburg and left the ground smiling as he knew that was his way forward, and apparently he has said we are only playing at 70% of how he wants us to play at the moment, reading some of the Barnsley fans thoughts, they have said the style doesnt change regardless of the players (and they love Val) so we may sign players who are more suited to it and get better at it, but Val Ball is here to stay.

I expect us to bully our way through the season and get results as we go but as a spectacle i would like to see some moments of play which has flair, skill and creativity (not all the time i know its not realistic) but how we play now just doesnt grab my interest, after not going the games for a 18 months i was buzzing to get back in the ground but already my interest is waning and its starting to feel like a chore again.

Thats just my personal view as i am losing interest in football in general, it doesnt help that our prize for going up is to go and make the numbers up in the league above, thats not the Albions fault, thats just the reality of our position (and same as many others Burnley, Watford, Norwich, etc)