Author Topic: Long Term Plan  (Read 1794 times)

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SmethDan

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2021, 11:16:12 AM »
The best laid plans can go awry as they are affected by the amount of money that's available to carry them through. Take our last relegation as a case in point. Few if any saw that coming at the start of the season. What's required is a long term policy, an identity.

Our current identity is of a club with little money or legroom to manoeuvre. That's because we're up for sale whilst navigating the perilous undercurrents of Excrement Creek minus a paddle. These two factors are not mutually exclusive.

We won't have a policy to provide a new identity supported by sustainable plans until one of two things happen. Lai regains an interest in all things Albion and sets us on a new course or we are sold and have an opportunity to move forward onto the next chapter of West Bromwich Albion's illustrious history.

We can debate the finer points until the cows come home, have a nap then bog off out and come home again. But we can forget anything about long term planning until our ownership (leadership) is sorted.

Canoe without a paddle or a ship without a rudder? It doesn't really matter as neither will go anywhere fast until they approach rapids or a whirlpool. All we can do is cling onto any impending wreckage and hope for a sturdier rig next time we embark. Bless the good ship Albion and all souls aboard.

First things first though, snot the Dogheads today and take it from there. COYB  8) .
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johnny Cash

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2021, 11:26:08 AM »
As part of our long term planning Id stop giving seemingly blanket 100% increases in salaries for promotion as well as a big bonus.

We are probably going to be one of the highest payers in the championship on average anyway and players are happy signing in the first place. We should run a scheme where they have a championship wage. 50% increase for promotion and a further 50% for staying up in year one.  .

This idea of automatically double your money for doing your job is silly. As a favourite with parachute money it shouldn’t be needed to incentivise the right players to join.

zippyandbungle

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2021, 12:39:27 PM »
As part of our long term planning Id stop giving seemingly blanket 100% increases in salaries for promotion as well as a big bonus.

We are probably going to be one of the highest payers in the championship on average anyway and players are happy signing in the first place. We should run a scheme where they have a championship wage. 50% increase for promotion and a further 50% for staying up in year one.  .

This idea of automatically double your money for doing your job is silly. As a favourite with parachute money it shouldn’t be needed to incentivise the right players to join.
But you are almost buying the loyalty.....if player x is good enough to be a big part of getting us up on 20k per week, our expectation would be that he should be decent enough to play prem football where the average weekly goes up considerably and it stops another club thinking “he’s good, we will only need to offer him 25k”.
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TheJacko2000

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2021, 01:48:33 PM »
Had Lai had a coherent 5 year plan for the club (rather than running with the last of Peace's short term fixes) we would now be benefitting from the fruits of that plan.

I am 90% certain any level of competent execution of a plan would have resulted in us being either in the top end of the Championship or the bottom half the Premier League. That is not a radically different outcome to the series of short term fixes that have been worked through across the last 5 years. However we would be on a more solid footing be more salable as a club and maybe a little bit better insulated against the next external shock. We might also have saved a whole bunch of money.

Which does make you wonder if this talk of a long term plan is an overblown fan construct. We appear to have got to the same place with the hands-off Lai and not fit for purpose Dowling.
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seteefeet

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2021, 02:32:28 PM »
The truth is the long term plan has not changed in a decade, don't overspend and be prepared for failure. It's not the long term plan that most fans want but that doesn't mean it's not one.

The truth is the utopian long term plan that is hailed by many is just fanciful and has too many moving parts.

Young upcoming manager - Too risky and, I don't care what anyone says, if we end up scrapping for survival in the Championship, no way they survive for the sake of a long term project.

Bring through youth - The youth have to be good enough for starters. Edwards and Leko, have been given chances but, despite being very decent footballers, just aren't at the level, whilst the likes of Brown, Ferguson and Barry have been poached.

Progressive football - We did that with Mowbray and, to a lesser degree RDM and Bilic but neither translated into the Prem.

We had a perfect chance to tick all of the above boxes with Darren Moore, who despite being one of our own and re-instilling a bit of pride and belief, was sacked with the club 4th in the table, a decision that was applauded by probably 50% of posters on here, despite completely derailing our season.

Like it or not Allardyce gives us the best chance of getting us back up and then keeping us there under the restrictions of our long running, long term plan, of doing it on a shoestring

skyclad99

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2021, 03:05:03 PM »
Opened this thread hoping the club had published one😂
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KingKoren

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2021, 03:12:06 PM »
The only time I ever felt we were entering a premiership campaign as a solid, experienced outfit, with a reliable (if unpopular) manager at the helm, we got relegated.

Planning is crucial don't get me wrong but you can't underestimate luck. There are only so many things that can be controlled. One bad spell of injuries, one poor season of recruitment, a successful manager and/or technical director being poached away ect. Someone will argue we could have planned better for the last one however there's never a guarantee the replacement will be as successful, no matter how diligent your scouting. Due to finances (or should I say lack of) I don't see how we ever progress from where we are. Even if you get everything right (which is a fantastical thinking) we are pushing it to advance from where we are currently.

Realistically we'll have the talent and financial power to be successful in the championship next season. Every relegated team this season may well be promoted if Bournemouth win the play-offs.  If Allardyce goes a lot will hinge on his replacement, if he stays, it may depend on his determination to get us back up and how much influence he can exert over the owners to recruit some adequate replacements. Either way we should be competitive unless we have a dreadful summer transfer window.

FallOutBoy

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2021, 04:22:30 PM »
Planning is crucial don't get me wrong but you can't underestimate luck. There are only so many things that can be controlled. One bad spell of injuries, one poor season of recruitment, a successful manager and/or technical director being poached away ect. Someone will argue we could have planned better for the last one however there's never a guarantee the replacement will be as successful, no matter how diligent your scouting. Due to finances (or should I say lack of) I don't see how we ever progress from where we are. Even if you get everything right (which is a fantastical thinking) we are pushing it to advance from where we are currently.

I read all that, and I see 'You might fail, so why bother trying?'. It's defeatism. We shouldn't have a long-term plan because we might have a couple of players miss a few games with injury.

There is an Americanism that if you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail, and it's true. We can't control everything, but we can decide our identity as a football club. We can identify a style of football we want the play, and put the players and coaching staff in place to achieve that; we can then judge whether they succeed or fail, but the next manager / head coach / technical director has to prefer the same style. As it is we lurch from pillar to post, never deciding on a style, never setting long-term goals and achievements, and ultimately the 'Little Old Albion' idiots come along to trot out their balls about how we should be grateful. We're well within the top 20 in the all-time table, even now. We had more trophies than Chelsea until Abramovich rolled his tanks up and started firing money at all and sundry. Just because our lowest ebb happened at a point at which most of us started following / became aware of the club it seems to give us a false impression of our standing in the game.

We aren't going to become an all-conquering force but we can at least decide on an identity, and put staff in place at all levels to achieve that. This squad is comprised of players chosen by Tony Pulis, Alan Pardew, Darren Moore, Slaven Bilic, Sam Allardyce, Luke Dowling, Nicky Hammond, and probably a couple of others I've missed. You can't keep recruiting like that and expect to have long term success.

Choose a way you wish to play. Employ managers and coaches to train and play that style throughout the club, at all levels and ages. Recruit players that match that style, operating within or to your budget but never going beyond it. Take a chance on players from outside the UK / the lower leagues as you can. Accept that sometimes you're going to fail and sometimes you're going to succeed. But always follow the principles of what you hope to achieve and how you want to be perceived as a football club.

And for Gods sake, try to reach out to people and create new fans.

seteefeet

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2021, 04:35:38 PM »
I read all that, and I see 'You might fail, so why bother trying?'. It's defeatism. We shouldn't have a long-term plan because we might have a couple of players miss a few games with injury.

There is an Americanism that if you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail, and it's true. We can't control everything, but we can decide our identity as a football club. We can identify a style of football we want the play, and put the players and coaching staff in place to achieve that; we can then judge whether they succeed or fail, but the next manager / head coach / technical director has to prefer the same style. As it is we lurch from pillar to post, never deciding on a style, never setting long-term goals and achievements, and ultimately the 'Little Old Albion' idiots come along to trot out their balls about how we should be grateful. We're well within the top 20 in the all-time table, even now. We had more trophies than Chelsea until Abramovich rolled his tanks up and started firing money at all and sundry. Just because our lowest ebb happened at a point at which most of us started following / became aware of the club it seems to give us a false impression of our standing in the game.

We aren't going to become an all-conquering force but we can at least decide on an identity, and put staff in place at all levels to achieve that. This squad is comprised of players chosen by Tony Pulis, Alan Pardew, Darren Moore, Slaven Bilic, Sam Allardyce, Luke Dowling, Nicky Hammond, and probably a couple of others I've missed. You can't keep recruiting like that and expect to have long term success.

Choose a way you wish to play. Employ managers and coaches to train and play that style throughout the club, at all levels and ages. Recruit players that match that style, operating within or to your budget but never going beyond it. Take a chance on players from outside the UK / the lower leagues as you can. Accept that sometimes you're going to fail and sometimes you're going to succeed. But always follow the principles of what you hope to achieve and how you want to be perceived as a football club.

And for Gods sake, try to reach out to people and create new fans.
That's all very poetic but..... what if we pick the style and it fails? How long do we persevere? Do we accept relegation to League One, for instance, provided we play the right way?

As I said earlier, we could have done all of the above with Moore but we sacked him whilst in a very strong position and a lot of fans backed that decision. How much time would a progressive, young manager get, if he didn't get immediate results.

Personally, I'm with you to a degree, the Pulis years were the worst ever for me, I'd rather lose playing decent football but, that's not the way it works unfortunately.

FallOutBoy

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2021, 05:00:55 PM »
That's all very poetic but..... what if we pick the style and it fails? How long do we persevere? Do we accept relegation to League One, for instance, provided we play the right way?

As I said earlier, we could have done all of the above with Moore but we sacked him whilst in a very strong position and a lot of fans backed that decision. How much time would a progressive, young manager get, if he didn't get immediate results.

Personally, I'm with you to a degree, the Pulis years were the worst ever for me, I'd rather lose playing decent football but, that's not the way it works unfortunately.

Ultimately it's not the style that succeeds or fails, but the way the manager / coaches / players work within that. Some play hoofball and succeed, some play hoofball and fail; some set out to play attractive, passing football and succeed, others set out to play that way and fail. Ultimately it's how a manager adapts his tactics within the set-up that dictate it's success. It could be said (broadly) that Tony Pulis and Gary Megson both set up their teams to play within a similar overall style; to defend well first and foremost, with the team attacking on the break. However the way they set up within that style was rather different; Pulis preferred a narrow back four so would set up with four centre-halves more often than not, while Megson always played bespoke full backs. Likewise, Megson had room in his team for creativity (Jason Koumas, Ruel Fox), whereas Pulis wouldn't have included that type of player except to employ them as a winger; he preferred Matt Phillips-style players who got wide and whipped in crosses towards one or two central strikers.

So if you find yourself in league 1, you find a manager who favours your style of football, but who you believe can adapt that towards a goal of promotion from league 1. You recruit players who you can afford, but you try to find players who suit that style (or are at least adaptable to that style), and who have the potential to achieve promotion and go on to more. Remember that you want your manager, coaches, and players to be attracting attention from other teams; it's a sign that things are going well. And if that manager doesn't work, and you don't achieve your aim, you recruit somebody else who you think is good enough and who works within that style.

My point is that you don't throw out everything just because it hasn't worked one time. You don't go from Pulis to Mowbray (for example) with the same set of players and expect it to work. Different managers have different requirements from their teams, but if you make a decision on an overarching ethos for your football club then you don't abandon it at the first sign of difficulty; you have to see it through.

We have to stop making 180-degree changes in direction every time something doesn't work, and expecting to be successful.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2021, 07:01:47 PM »
The club had a long term plan under JP when we finished top half, don’t invest and don’t try and improve just staying up was the only target
It's easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you got to have is faith and discipline when you're not a winner.

paulosull

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2021, 08:09:46 PM »
Can't have long term plan until we get rid of this uninterested owner.

overseas baggie

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2021, 08:23:43 PM »
I used to believe in having a long-term plan but football is a short-term results business and every manager is 5 or 6 successive defeats away from a sacking.   Better to be pragmatic and whilst having a broad plan of not wanting to play any extreme style of football, it should be easy to recruit a manager who is on the up, who knows how to handle a crisis, and who can motivate a team.   Beyond that it's largely impossible to plan much beyond one season at a time.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 11:17:20 PM by overseas baggie »

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2021, 09:50:49 PM »
I think events of the last couple of years have scuppered pretty much every plan, should this stop the club planning and going fully reactionary? Only with inspiring football people in place and we ain't. We are buggered but on the plus side not as buggered as the rest !
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baggie82

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2021, 09:53:37 PM »
I think the plan should be to keep the squad together (as much as we can), to spend most of what we have next season to try to get automatic promotion at the first attempt and then back Allardyce to get us up and then established in the premiership over the next three years. The key for me, will be keeping players like Pereira at the club.

Albionic

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2021, 09:54:54 PM »
I think the plan should be to keep the squad together (as much as we can), to spend most of what we have next season to try to get automatic promotion at the first attempt and then back Allardyce to get us up and then established in the premiership over the next three years. The key for me, will be keeping players like Pereira at the club.
Think that plan will fall at 2 hurdles (SA and MP) Hope I am wrong on the latter
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