Author Topic: Long Term Plan  (Read 1792 times)

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seteefeet

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Long Term Plan
« on: April 30, 2021, 09:30:23 AM »
This gets a great deal of debate so thought it worth a thread of it's own.

What do we define as a long term plan?

Holding onto a younger manager rather than sacking them at the first sign of trouble? Not for me, the manager is but one cog in a bigger wheel and, let's face it, any young manager who achieves success here would be picked off by a richer vulture. We, literally, can't afford, to watch a manager fail in the hope that they will come good. That being said, I still believe the timing of Darren Moore's sacking was beyond stupid and completely derailed our season

Building from bottom up? One philosophy right through the Academy to first team, and bringing our kids through, is a fantastic idea, it's dependant on two things though.
1) Having kids good enough to achieve the level we are at. This is extremely difficult at Champ level and virtually impossible at Prem because the amount of kids that reach that peak early on is very small.
2) If we do find kids that have that potential, they, again will be picked off by richer vultures due to the corrupt system that, not only does nothing to protect against it, but seems to actively promote it.

I would argue that we have had  the same, very successful, long term plan in place for many years and that is one of financial stability.
We don't overspend, our wage structure is well managed and we were pioneers of flexdown contracts.
This, however, has had a two way effect.
It holds us back when we get promoted but
It makes us incredibly strong when we get relegated.

This means we are in a sort of limbo, not good enough to stay up, too good to go down.
The only time we have had any prolonged success (in terms of staying up) was under Pulis and Hodgson, two pragmatic, no nonsense  managers.
That's why I think we have to accept that the ideology of a young, upcoming manager, playing flowing football, is, unfortunately, fanciful at the very least.

This may not sit well with many but, as the financial dice are not loaded in our favour, when it comes to the corruption of the greed league, our best chance of a long term plan seeing fruition may not be with a 30 something Cruyff wannabe, it's more likely a 66 year old, weathered old warhorse.

leeiswba

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2021, 11:44:40 AM »
Every one wants a long term plan apparently, but when we get a young coach in and we are maybe 10th in October the same people will want him gone

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2021, 12:03:41 PM »
That would be a good idea

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2021, 12:04:43 PM »
Every one wants a long term plan apparently, but when we get a young coach in and we are maybe 10th in October the same people will want him gone

Or an ambitious young coach will get poached. Live for the season we’re in I say!

seteefeet

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2021, 12:09:24 PM »
Every one wants a long term plan apparently, but when we get a young coach in and we are maybe 10th in October the same people will want him gone
Seems most people see a long term plan as exclusive to a young coach, however, our bet stints in the prem have been with old dudes.



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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2021, 12:45:19 PM »
Seems most people see a long term plan as exclusive to a young coach, however, our bet stints in the prem have been with old dudes.

And yet ironically enough our longest Premier League winning run of four games came under the stewardship of a relatively youngish coach who had the misfortune to look like a decidedly lived in older dude  ;D .
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2021, 12:51:36 PM »
Identify a way we want to play and stick to it. Then recruit coaches and players to fit this. We've lurched from one extreme to the other over the years. Mowbray to Pulis is as extreme as it can get. I'd like to see us picking up young talented players that we can improve rather than signing or keep giving contracts to has beans' as we've done so often. Each summer we should be adding 2/3 quality starters to improve the side. Sounds easy doesn't it.  :D

leeiswba

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2021, 12:58:38 PM »
Seems most people see a long term plan as exclusive to a young coach, however, our bet stints in the prem have been with old dudes.

That’s why I’m happy with Big Sam, hopefully can take us back then least we have someone who knows what is needed in terms of players & tactics as soon as we get up there for a change instead of having to make a change in the middle of the first season I.e. Di Matteo & Bilic or stick with them and finish bottom like with Mowbray.

leeiswba

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2021, 01:06:11 PM »
Another thing is what club does have a long term plan, heard people say teams like Leicester but that’s only because they are doing ok at the moment. Come November if they are 14th/15th Rogers will probably get the boot. Long term only works if people/ideas are kept when things aren’t going great and I’m not sure of a team who work like this.

Norwich maybe?

seteefeet

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2021, 01:29:36 PM »
Another thing is what club does have a long term plan, heard people say teams like Leicester but that’s only because they are doing ok at the moment. Come November if they are 14th/15th Rogers will probably get the boot. Long term only works if people/ideas are kept when things aren’t going great and I’m not sure of a team who work like this.

Norwich maybe?
I doubt Farke will be offered the same amount of time and patience should they perform the same as they did last time out

Our destiny is determined by money. not personnel, therefore the long term plan is a financial one. No manager will be given money that isn't available but won't be given time if that year's objective is seemingly failing. Tough gig but there's no real alternative.

If we start overspending, on signings and wages, chasing the Prem riches, and fail, we risk doing a Forest or, worse still, a Sunderland.
If we sell assets but don't invest back into the squad or waste our parachute payments, we risk midtable obscurity.

It's a financial balancing act which, up to now, we have handled incredibly well and it seems an awful lot like a long term plan to me.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2021, 04:43:52 PM »
I am not too sure how many clubs have identifiable long term plans.

 I think there some where the short-term plan has worked and we credit a club and it's ownership with having a long term vision that isn't really there. For instance Swansea City were being held up as the model for small to medium sized clubs. At their peak I remember having a conversation with a Swansea fan who was working for a football analytics consultancy. He was very clear that while the sucess they were having was nice there wasn't much backing it up. He was proved right when the project hit the skids.

The key unfortunately is long term stable ownership. It is difficult to commit to say a 5 year plan for something that you don't plan on owning in 2 years time. I guess we had some sort of long term plan until the point Peace wanted to sell up. Lai might have started with one but that got swept away by circumstance as much as anything else.

Those few clubs that might have some sort of longer term vision for instance Norwich, Brentford, and Brighton do have stable long-term committed owners.

Were Lai to hand me the keys tomorrow what would I do? Well not being the a multi-billionaire I have to get the club onto a stable self financing footing regardless of the outcome on the pitch (and you thought Peace was penny pinching).

 If it is a long-term plan it has to be bottom up the first team squad is the outcome of a long term plan not the thing that drives it.

The focus has to be on player development through coaching sports science and analytics. We have to improve and develop players and that does mean clearing pathways into the first team. Yes we will get players picked off but only for a fee. In terms of first team coach it does imply one that works with younger players rather than one that is a short term fix.



 
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johnny Cash

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2021, 05:22:15 PM »
It does seem that when clubs are lauded to some extent have just had things click for a 3-5 year spell and ultimately the status quo returns eventually.

There is a lot of movement by clubs in the championship and below but the only club that really looks like it might have have really changed it’s position in the pecking order without oil money is Leicester in the top flight.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 05:23:59 PM by johnny Cash »

zippyandbungle

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2021, 07:43:44 PM »
I am not too sure how many clubs have identifiable long term plans.

 I think there some where the short-term plan has worked and we credit a club and it's ownership with having a long term vision that isn't really there. For instance Swansea City were being held up as the model for small to medium sized clubs. At their peak I remember having a conversation with a Swansea fan who was working for a football analytics consultancy. He was very clear that while the sucess they were having was nice there wasn't much backing it up. He was proved right when the project hit the skids.

The key unfortunately is long term stable ownership. It is difficult to commit to say a 5 year plan for something that you don't plan on owning in 2 years time. I guess we had some sort of long term plan until the point Peace wanted to sell up. Lai might have started with one but that got swept away by circumstance as much as anything else.

Those few clubs that might have some sort of longer term vision for instance Norwich, Brentford, and Brighton do have stable long-term committed owners.

Were Lai to hand me the keys tomorrow what would I do? Well not being the a multi-billionaire I have to get the club onto a stable self financing footing regardless of the outcome on the pitch (and you thought Peace was penny pinching).

 If it is a long-term plan it has to be bottom up the first team squad is the outcome of a long term plan not the thing that drives it.

The focus has to be on player development through coaching sports science and analytics. We have to improve and develop players and that does mean clearing pathways into the first team. Yes we will get players picked off but only for a fee. In terms of first team coach it does imply one that works with younger players rather than one that is a short term fix.
Slightly off but wasn’t their plan....Michu, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player come from left field and become a clubs fulcrum so fast....then disappear just as quickly..

I actually thing long term plan is a buzz phrase that people who want to appear knowledgable use.....you can always have a good/bad scenario....but my god football is far too fickle to write a 10 or 5 year plan?
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2021, 08:01:11 PM »
I have always been in favour of making a long term plan and sticking to it through the ups and downs. Reading some of the well thought posts on here however has given me food for thought. Football is a unique industry where the financial pressures are so great that any slip ups lead to the abandonment of any long term plan, however well thought out. A club of our size will always have major pressures to regain top flight status after a relegation. As others have said, long term stability at the very top is essential to planning. Sadly we do not have that.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2021, 09:57:53 PM »
I have always been in favour of making a long term plan and sticking to it through the ups and downs. Reading some of the well thought posts on here however has given me food for thought. Football is a unique industry where the financial pressures are so great that any slip ups lead to the abandonment of any long term plan, however well thought out. A club of our size will always have major pressures to regain top flight status after a relegation. As others have said, long term stability at the very top is essential to planning. Sadly we do not have that.

Only to the weak, feckless and unsuccessful football clubs.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2021, 08:09:29 AM »
I agree that football is bad at working long term and planning in general. By it's very nature the game has huge amounts of variance associated with it there is more dumb luck involved than many of those working in the game would readily acknowledge.

However the irony is that the game makes long-term commitments. The academy system is a long term project and clubs commit to 5 year contracts for players and coaches.

The measure of long-term planning is if a club is they don't panic e.g. abruptly change coach playing style and dash out into the market to fix things when a season isn't going as well as it might.
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2021, 08:44:37 AM »
IMO, there's a difference between long term planning in the football pyramid below & above the EPL, mainly due to the huge sums of money required to exist in the EPL & above.

There has been mentions on other topics about how efficient our recruitment has been in terms of player performance against money spent, & yet last season AV spent over £150 million on player recruitment & only missed relegation due to an error in their goal line technology system.
From that, you would say that the player recruitment system needs to be better refined for the less wealthy clubs.

Up to EPL level, long term planning is fairly straight forward & low risk, if club owners & fans have the patience.
Once a club gets into the EPL however, the "investment" & subsequent risk increases exponentially, & it's not difficult to see why owners panic & try a "quick fix" solution.
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2021, 09:29:34 AM »
Long term planning how does that work the elite may be able to do that but the rest of us forget it everything in football is constantly changing owner, manager, players, income depending on what division you're in how do you plan ahead with all that going on?

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2021, 10:10:28 AM »
Do the elite even really do it or do they all just throw money at it?

I can’t really see too much longneck term planning from those either to be honest.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2021, 10:18:44 AM »
There won't be any long term planning until Lai and co are gone , we'll be stuck in this loop for as long as they stay .
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2021, 11:42:36 AM »
I won’t get too bogged down into the definition of “long term plan” as long term could be just a few seasons in some definitions, but for me Dan Ashworth in his time here had a strategy.

In terms of the managers, the club chose attacking managers to get us out of the championship and then to keep us there, opted for more pragmatic people like Hodgson and Clarke.

With signings, Ashworth always looked to pick up the best free transfers whenever they became available, had a clear scouting plan from abroad, would sign at least 1 “player for the future” every year who could develop (Dawson, Dorrans, Mulumbu) and seemed to prioritise higher wages over fees as clubs success seemed to be more aligned to the size of their wage bill rather than what was being spent on headline fees.

I want a director of football to have a clear strategy similar to this, with the added influence of youth players (a clear pathway for how we develop them).
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2021, 12:04:15 PM »
I have always been in favour of making a long term plan and sticking to it through the ups and downs. Reading some of the well thought posts on here however has given me food for thought. Football is a unique industry where the financial pressures are so great that any slip ups lead to the abandonment of any long term plan, however well thought out. A club of our size will always have major pressures to regain top flight status after a relegation. As others have said, long term stability at the very top is essential to planning. Sadly we do not have that.

Good post and one I agree with. The financial rewards are so high nowadays that at the first sight of trouble which may hamper those financial rewards then that long term plan gets chucked into the bin for a lucrative short term fix.

There is no long term plan possible here because we have an uninterested owner. Everything at this club revolves around a takeover. Until that happens then we’ll just live for season to season
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2021, 12:47:51 PM »
Had Lai had a coherent 5 year plan for the club (rather than running with the last of Peace's short term fixes) we would now be benefitting from the fruits of that plan.

I am 90% certain any level of competent execution of a plan would have resulted in us being either in the top end of the Championship or the bottom half the Premier League. That is not a radically different outcome to the series of short term fixes that have been worked through across the last 5 years. However we would be on a more solid footing be more salable as a club and maybe a little bit better insulated against the next external shock. We might also have saved a whole bunch of money.

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zippyandbungle

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2021, 01:28:37 PM »
Had Lai had a coherent 5 year plan for the club (rather than running with the last of Peace's short term fixes) we would now be benefitting from the fruits of that plan.

I am 90% certain any level of competent execution of a plan would have resulted in us being either in the top end of the Championship or the bottom half the Premier League. That is not a radically different outcome to the series of short term fixes that have been worked through across the last 5 years. However we would be on a more solid footing be more salable as a club and maybe a little bit better insulated against the next external shock. We might also have saved a whole bunch of money.
But this is sort of the problem, our variables plus or minus are really small.
In terms of money, if we spent an extra 30-40 mil last term there is no guarantee we would be better off...
Throw 100m at it and you would at the very least expect 40 points with 5 games left....but why would anyone buy West Brom knowing they would need to spend those amounts to tread water.
It’s very complicated and emotive, and everyone wants the same thing .
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2021, 07:56:16 AM »
But this is sort of the problem, our variables plus or minus are really small.
In terms of money, if we spent an extra 30-40 mil last term there is no guarantee we would be better off...
Throw 100m at it and you would at the very least expect 40 points with 5 games left....but why would anyone buy West Brom knowing they would need to spend those amounts to tread water.
It’s very complicated and emotive, and everyone wants the same thing .

It is perfectly reasonable to have a long term plan without blowing the figures you suggest we’ll need.

You do not need a bag of money to execute a long term plan, though sometimes it might help.
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2021, 11:16:12 AM »
The best laid plans can go awry as they are affected by the amount of money that's available to carry them through. Take our last relegation as a case in point. Few if any saw that coming at the start of the season. What's required is a long term policy, an identity.

Our current identity is of a club with little money or legroom to manoeuvre. That's because we're up for sale whilst navigating the perilous undercurrents of Excrement Creek minus a paddle. These two factors are not mutually exclusive.

We won't have a policy to provide a new identity supported by sustainable plans until one of two things happen. Lai regains an interest in all things Albion and sets us on a new course or we are sold and have an opportunity to move forward onto the next chapter of West Bromwich Albion's illustrious history.

We can debate the finer points until the cows come home, have a nap then bog off out and come home again. But we can forget anything about long term planning until our ownership (leadership) is sorted.

Canoe without a paddle or a ship without a rudder? It doesn't really matter as neither will go anywhere fast until they approach rapids or a whirlpool. All we can do is cling onto any impending wreckage and hope for a sturdier rig next time we embark. Bless the good ship Albion and all souls aboard.

First things first though, snot the Dogheads today and take it from there. COYB  8) .
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2021, 11:26:08 AM »
As part of our long term planning Id stop giving seemingly blanket 100% increases in salaries for promotion as well as a big bonus.

We are probably going to be one of the highest payers in the championship on average anyway and players are happy signing in the first place. We should run a scheme where they have a championship wage. 50% increase for promotion and a further 50% for staying up in year one.  .

This idea of automatically double your money for doing your job is silly. As a favourite with parachute money it shouldn’t be needed to incentivise the right players to join.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2021, 12:39:27 PM »
As part of our long term planning Id stop giving seemingly blanket 100% increases in salaries for promotion as well as a big bonus.

We are probably going to be one of the highest payers in the championship on average anyway and players are happy signing in the first place. We should run a scheme where they have a championship wage. 50% increase for promotion and a further 50% for staying up in year one.  .

This idea of automatically double your money for doing your job is silly. As a favourite with parachute money it shouldn’t be needed to incentivise the right players to join.
But you are almost buying the loyalty.....if player x is good enough to be a big part of getting us up on 20k per week, our expectation would be that he should be decent enough to play prem football where the average weekly goes up considerably and it stops another club thinking “he’s good, we will only need to offer him 25k”.
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2021, 01:48:33 PM »
Had Lai had a coherent 5 year plan for the club (rather than running with the last of Peace's short term fixes) we would now be benefitting from the fruits of that plan.

I am 90% certain any level of competent execution of a plan would have resulted in us being either in the top end of the Championship or the bottom half the Premier League. That is not a radically different outcome to the series of short term fixes that have been worked through across the last 5 years. However we would be on a more solid footing be more salable as a club and maybe a little bit better insulated against the next external shock. We might also have saved a whole bunch of money.

Which does make you wonder if this talk of a long term plan is an overblown fan construct. We appear to have got to the same place with the hands-off Lai and not fit for purpose Dowling.
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2021, 02:32:28 PM »
The truth is the long term plan has not changed in a decade, don't overspend and be prepared for failure. It's not the long term plan that most fans want but that doesn't mean it's not one.

The truth is the utopian long term plan that is hailed by many is just fanciful and has too many moving parts.

Young upcoming manager - Too risky and, I don't care what anyone says, if we end up scrapping for survival in the Championship, no way they survive for the sake of a long term project.

Bring through youth - The youth have to be good enough for starters. Edwards and Leko, have been given chances but, despite being very decent footballers, just aren't at the level, whilst the likes of Brown, Ferguson and Barry have been poached.

Progressive football - We did that with Mowbray and, to a lesser degree RDM and Bilic but neither translated into the Prem.

We had a perfect chance to tick all of the above boxes with Darren Moore, who despite being one of our own and re-instilling a bit of pride and belief, was sacked with the club 4th in the table, a decision that was applauded by probably 50% of posters on here, despite completely derailing our season.

Like it or not Allardyce gives us the best chance of getting us back up and then keeping us there under the restrictions of our long running, long term plan, of doing it on a shoestring

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2021, 03:05:03 PM »
Opened this thread hoping the club had published one😂
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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2021, 03:12:06 PM »
The only time I ever felt we were entering a premiership campaign as a solid, experienced outfit, with a reliable (if unpopular) manager at the helm, we got relegated.

Planning is crucial don't get me wrong but you can't underestimate luck. There are only so many things that can be controlled. One bad spell of injuries, one poor season of recruitment, a successful manager and/or technical director being poached away ect. Someone will argue we could have planned better for the last one however there's never a guarantee the replacement will be as successful, no matter how diligent your scouting. Due to finances (or should I say lack of) I don't see how we ever progress from where we are. Even if you get everything right (which is a fantastical thinking) we are pushing it to advance from where we are currently.

Realistically we'll have the talent and financial power to be successful in the championship next season. Every relegated team this season may well be promoted if Bournemouth win the play-offs.  If Allardyce goes a lot will hinge on his replacement, if he stays, it may depend on his determination to get us back up and how much influence he can exert over the owners to recruit some adequate replacements. Either way we should be competitive unless we have a dreadful summer transfer window.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2021, 04:22:30 PM »
Planning is crucial don't get me wrong but you can't underestimate luck. There are only so many things that can be controlled. One bad spell of injuries, one poor season of recruitment, a successful manager and/or technical director being poached away ect. Someone will argue we could have planned better for the last one however there's never a guarantee the replacement will be as successful, no matter how diligent your scouting. Due to finances (or should I say lack of) I don't see how we ever progress from where we are. Even if you get everything right (which is a fantastical thinking) we are pushing it to advance from where we are currently.

I read all that, and I see 'You might fail, so why bother trying?'. It's defeatism. We shouldn't have a long-term plan because we might have a couple of players miss a few games with injury.

There is an Americanism that if you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail, and it's true. We can't control everything, but we can decide our identity as a football club. We can identify a style of football we want the play, and put the players and coaching staff in place to achieve that; we can then judge whether they succeed or fail, but the next manager / head coach / technical director has to prefer the same style. As it is we lurch from pillar to post, never deciding on a style, never setting long-term goals and achievements, and ultimately the 'Little Old Albion' idiots come along to trot out their balls about how we should be grateful. We're well within the top 20 in the all-time table, even now. We had more trophies than Chelsea until Abramovich rolled his tanks up and started firing money at all and sundry. Just because our lowest ebb happened at a point at which most of us started following / became aware of the club it seems to give us a false impression of our standing in the game.

We aren't going to become an all-conquering force but we can at least decide on an identity, and put staff in place at all levels to achieve that. This squad is comprised of players chosen by Tony Pulis, Alan Pardew, Darren Moore, Slaven Bilic, Sam Allardyce, Luke Dowling, Nicky Hammond, and probably a couple of others I've missed. You can't keep recruiting like that and expect to have long term success.

Choose a way you wish to play. Employ managers and coaches to train and play that style throughout the club, at all levels and ages. Recruit players that match that style, operating within or to your budget but never going beyond it. Take a chance on players from outside the UK / the lower leagues as you can. Accept that sometimes you're going to fail and sometimes you're going to succeed. But always follow the principles of what you hope to achieve and how you want to be perceived as a football club.

And for Gods sake, try to reach out to people and create new fans.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2021, 04:35:38 PM »
I read all that, and I see 'You might fail, so why bother trying?'. It's defeatism. We shouldn't have a long-term plan because we might have a couple of players miss a few games with injury.

There is an Americanism that if you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail, and it's true. We can't control everything, but we can decide our identity as a football club. We can identify a style of football we want the play, and put the players and coaching staff in place to achieve that; we can then judge whether they succeed or fail, but the next manager / head coach / technical director has to prefer the same style. As it is we lurch from pillar to post, never deciding on a style, never setting long-term goals and achievements, and ultimately the 'Little Old Albion' idiots come along to trot out their balls about how we should be grateful. We're well within the top 20 in the all-time table, even now. We had more trophies than Chelsea until Abramovich rolled his tanks up and started firing money at all and sundry. Just because our lowest ebb happened at a point at which most of us started following / became aware of the club it seems to give us a false impression of our standing in the game.

We aren't going to become an all-conquering force but we can at least decide on an identity, and put staff in place at all levels to achieve that. This squad is comprised of players chosen by Tony Pulis, Alan Pardew, Darren Moore, Slaven Bilic, Sam Allardyce, Luke Dowling, Nicky Hammond, and probably a couple of others I've missed. You can't keep recruiting like that and expect to have long term success.

Choose a way you wish to play. Employ managers and coaches to train and play that style throughout the club, at all levels and ages. Recruit players that match that style, operating within or to your budget but never going beyond it. Take a chance on players from outside the UK / the lower leagues as you can. Accept that sometimes you're going to fail and sometimes you're going to succeed. But always follow the principles of what you hope to achieve and how you want to be perceived as a football club.

And for Gods sake, try to reach out to people and create new fans.
That's all very poetic but..... what if we pick the style and it fails? How long do we persevere? Do we accept relegation to League One, for instance, provided we play the right way?

As I said earlier, we could have done all of the above with Moore but we sacked him whilst in a very strong position and a lot of fans backed that decision. How much time would a progressive, young manager get, if he didn't get immediate results.

Personally, I'm with you to a degree, the Pulis years were the worst ever for me, I'd rather lose playing decent football but, that's not the way it works unfortunately.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2021, 05:00:55 PM »
That's all very poetic but..... what if we pick the style and it fails? How long do we persevere? Do we accept relegation to League One, for instance, provided we play the right way?

As I said earlier, we could have done all of the above with Moore but we sacked him whilst in a very strong position and a lot of fans backed that decision. How much time would a progressive, young manager get, if he didn't get immediate results.

Personally, I'm with you to a degree, the Pulis years were the worst ever for me, I'd rather lose playing decent football but, that's not the way it works unfortunately.

Ultimately it's not the style that succeeds or fails, but the way the manager / coaches / players work within that. Some play hoofball and succeed, some play hoofball and fail; some set out to play attractive, passing football and succeed, others set out to play that way and fail. Ultimately it's how a manager adapts his tactics within the set-up that dictate it's success. It could be said (broadly) that Tony Pulis and Gary Megson both set up their teams to play within a similar overall style; to defend well first and foremost, with the team attacking on the break. However the way they set up within that style was rather different; Pulis preferred a narrow back four so would set up with four centre-halves more often than not, while Megson always played bespoke full backs. Likewise, Megson had room in his team for creativity (Jason Koumas, Ruel Fox), whereas Pulis wouldn't have included that type of player except to employ them as a winger; he preferred Matt Phillips-style players who got wide and whipped in crosses towards one or two central strikers.

So if you find yourself in league 1, you find a manager who favours your style of football, but who you believe can adapt that towards a goal of promotion from league 1. You recruit players who you can afford, but you try to find players who suit that style (or are at least adaptable to that style), and who have the potential to achieve promotion and go on to more. Remember that you want your manager, coaches, and players to be attracting attention from other teams; it's a sign that things are going well. And if that manager doesn't work, and you don't achieve your aim, you recruit somebody else who you think is good enough and who works within that style.

My point is that you don't throw out everything just because it hasn't worked one time. You don't go from Pulis to Mowbray (for example) with the same set of players and expect it to work. Different managers have different requirements from their teams, but if you make a decision on an overarching ethos for your football club then you don't abandon it at the first sign of difficulty; you have to see it through.

We have to stop making 180-degree changes in direction every time something doesn't work, and expecting to be successful.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2021, 07:01:47 PM »
The club had a long term plan under JP when we finished top half, don’t invest and don’t try and improve just staying up was the only target
It's easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you got to have is faith and discipline when you're not a winner.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2021, 08:09:46 PM »
Can't have long term plan until we get rid of this uninterested owner.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2021, 08:23:43 PM »
I used to believe in having a long-term plan but football is a short-term results business and every manager is 5 or 6 successive defeats away from a sacking.   Better to be pragmatic and whilst having a broad plan of not wanting to play any extreme style of football, it should be easy to recruit a manager who is on the up, who knows how to handle a crisis, and who can motivate a team.   Beyond that it's largely impossible to plan much beyond one season at a time.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 11:17:20 PM by overseas baggie »

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2021, 09:50:49 PM »
I think events of the last couple of years have scuppered pretty much every plan, should this stop the club planning and going fully reactionary? Only with inspiring football people in place and we ain't. We are buggered but on the plus side not as buggered as the rest !
Lovin the championship, just lovin it !

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2021, 09:53:37 PM »
I think the plan should be to keep the squad together (as much as we can), to spend most of what we have next season to try to get automatic promotion at the first attempt and then back Allardyce to get us up and then established in the premiership over the next three years. The key for me, will be keeping players like Pereira at the club.

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Re: Long Term Plan
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2021, 09:54:54 PM »
I think the plan should be to keep the squad together (as much as we can), to spend most of what we have next season to try to get automatic promotion at the first attempt and then back Allardyce to get us up and then established in the premiership over the next three years. The key for me, will be keeping players like Pereira at the club.
Think that plan will fall at 2 hurdles (SA and MP) Hope I am wrong on the latter
Lovin the championship, just lovin it !