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Are you in favour of vaccine passports?

Yes
No
Yes in certain circumstances
Not fussed either way

Author Topic: Vaccine passports  (Read 44334 times)

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TheJacko2000

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #150 on: June 08, 2021, 12:26:56 AM »
Indoctrination? I don't remember the exact logistics but didn't you star in a  videod presentation where members of the public attended a football match under test conditions where attendance required a negative Covid test, the wearing of a face mask, an allotted time of arrival and scheduled order of exit not long back  ;D  ;) ?

I didn't wear a mask Dan... and no it wasn't a test event so I didn't need a negative test either. Aside from queuing to get in and not being able to get a pie it was just like any other game except I had 3 seats to myself...
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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #151 on: June 08, 2021, 10:58:48 AM »
if you have had 2 jabs you should be allowed to travel abroad, i hear this morning the government want you to holiday in the uk. its a conn
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Albionic

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #152 on: June 08, 2021, 12:22:19 PM »
I’m sorry but this notion of the health system not being able to cope is nonsense.

The very idea a disease with a 0.15% infection fatality rate can bring the NHS to its knees is shocking to be honest. I propose it is more the protocols that have impacted the nhs due to self isolation/testing etc - staff absenteeism has been at record highs in the time of need, coupled with the serious impact as mentioned in the “pressure points in the nhs”-https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/pressure-points-in-the-nhs

The Nightingale project cost us over half a billion pounds. It’s naive to think this was going to be our saving grace and whatever idiot signed off on it needs to face public inquiries, as you mentioned there were never enough staff to facilitate this plan and due to the protocols there’s not been enough staff in the normal nhs facilities to cope and care for people.

Birmingham nightingale cost £66million and treated 0 people...

I’m sorry but the statistics don’t suggest that. Long term affects could well be post viral fatigue syndrome experienced again in a statistically minor amount of people. Never has a disease had this much focus from the whole world since HIV/AIDS and the amount of science that seems to have been repurposed to fit the scare agenda is quite frightening.

The 0.15% infection fatality rate is not the issue which overloads hospitals though, its
a) the seriously ill for long periods of time blocking beds
b) the medium to seriously ill who need intensive treatments
c) the large number of people with prior conditions exacerbated by Covid......

unless of course you think NHS staff are making it all up to elicit some bizarre sort of sympathy.

The 0.15% is likely attributable to the excellent care and attention of the medical industry, I dread to think what the 0.15% would be if we were less fortunate in the Uk
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section5

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #153 on: June 08, 2021, 01:04:36 PM »
The 0.15% infection fatality rate is not the issue which overloads hospitals though, its
a) the seriously ill for long periods of time blocking beds
b) the medium to seriously ill who need intensive treatments
c) the large number of people with prior conditions exacerbated by Covid......

unless of course you think NHS staff are making it all up to elicit some bizarre sort of sympathy.

The 0.15% is likely attributable to the excellent care and attention of the medical industry, I dread to think what the 0.15% would be if we were less fortunate in the Uk

The study was for the global infection fatality rate at the start of the pandemic with data taken from epicentres.....It’s a GLOBAL not LOCAL infection fatality rate which is 0.03-0.04% for under 70 years... if you actually looked at the data you’d understand that higher income countries naturally have lower mortality rates than lower income countries in general due to facilities, access to health care, infrastructures etc... so 0.15% general global rate, likely lower in the U.K. as it’s in the highest income bracket of countries.

I suggest you’ve not read what I’ve put or the statistics from the BMA report that I quoted called “pressure points in the nhs”...

Just incase you missed it here’s some startling snippets...
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/pressure-points-in-the-nhs

The BMA estimates that, between April 2020 and March 2021, there were:

3.37 million fewer elective procedures
21.4 million fewer outpatient attendances.

While the overall median waiting time for treatment decreased to 11.6 weeks in March 2021, the total number of patients waiting over 18 weeks for treatment increased again to 1.76 million.

Moreover, the number of patients waiting over one year for treatment hit 436,127 in March and has risen 378-fold since March 2019. This figure has consistently risen since March 2020 and is now the highest it has been since August 2007.

This 14-year high highlights the scale of unmet need in a significant portion of the waiting list, with patients having been de-prioritised for care and experiencing extremely long waits.

This decrease in cancer treatment and screening is unacceptable given the Government’s statements that cancer care would be unaffected during the pandemic.

There is irrefutable evidence that cancer treatment was severely affected during the first peak of COVID-19 hospitalisations. All measures need to be put in place to prevent such large activity drops occurring as we grapple with the larger second peak.

Remind me what is it that we were meant to protect for 3 weeks?? The backlog is astonishing..

Another report:
https://www.bma.org.uk/media/2841/the-hidden-impact-of-covid_web-pdf.pdf

“ The COVID-19 outbreak has had a huge impact on core NHS services. In order to free up enough capacity to deal with the initial peak of the pandemic, the NHS was forced to shut down or significantly reduce many areas of non-COVID care during April, May and June 2020.

This, combined with fewer patients seeking care during lockdown, means that there has been a significant drop in elective procedures, urgent cancer referrals, first cancer treatments and outpatient appointments.

The full impact of this drastic reduction in routine NHS care in England is only now emerging. Millions of patients living with health problems (including life-threatening conditions such as cancer) have been affected, with their treatment postponed or cancelled.

And millions of patients will have missed vital opportunities to receive initial assessment and diagnosis for health problems in the first place. This is the hidden impact of the COVID crisis – patient safety is being severely compromised not just by the virus itself, but by the knock-on effects of an unprecedented disruption to NHS services.

The BMA estimates that in April, May and June 2020 in England there were:
– between 1.32 and 1.50 million fewer elective admissions than would usually be expected
– between 2.47 million and 2.60 million fewer first outpatient attendances
– between 274,000 and 286,000 fewer urgent cancer referrals
– between 20,800 and 25,900 fewer patients starting first cancer treatments following a decision to treat
– between 12,000 and 15,000 fewer patients starting first cancer treatments following an urgent GP referral.

This outcome was avoidable. Although a pandemic on the scale of COVID-19 was always likely to cause major disruption to health services, the drastic extent to which the NHS had to shut down routine care is a consequence of over a decade of underinvestment and (in the case of public health and social care) cuts to services. As a result, NHS capacity has lagged behind many other EU countries, including in terms of bed numbers, critical care facilities, workforce numbers (with 10,000 medical vacancies in the NHS in England in 2019) and resources in primary and community care. The NHS was already in crisis before the pandemic hit, as the BMA consistently warned.

We estimate that up to 1.5 million elective procedures have not occurred during the pandemic, leading to a significant worsening of health for many patients whose procedures have been cancelled and a stressful situation for GPs unable to refer their patients on for specialist care.

First outpatient attendances
These attendances are the first time a patient was seen by a consultant. We estimate that up to 2.6 million may have not occurred during the pandemic, indicating a large backlog of increasingly urgent care needs.

Urgent GP cancer referrals
The number of urgent GP cancer referrals is up to 286,000 less than what would be expected during the period. This is due to a combination of patients not presenting and GPs having difficulty referring those who do; many of these untreated and undetected cancers’ prognoses will worsen over time and require more urgent treatment.”

BMA reports suggesting it not me saying the NHS staff are “making it up”. It’s a bit of a pathetic response.I suggest you actually read some of these studies instead of trying to hit me with some narrative when I’ve mentioned nothing to say anybody has been making anything up. I actually try to deal with statistics and facts.. such as my point with the Nightingale facilities yet you fail to give an adequate response to that? What is the point of your response?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 01:08:21 PM by section5 »

MarkW

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #154 on: June 08, 2021, 01:54:03 PM »
Section5, he wasn't talked about mortality, it was talking about morbidity. Just because you don't die, doesn't mean you aren't taking up a bed.

My partner is a doctor so I think your point about the delay to treatments is entirely valid, but I think you're railing against an opposition which isn't really there. As another poster said, no-one is "pro-lockdown", in the same way that no-one is "pro-abortion". It's just that sometimes difficult choices have to be made.
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TheJacko2000

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #155 on: June 08, 2021, 02:17:40 PM »
Section5, he wasn't talked about mortality, it was talking about morbidity. Just because you don't die, doesn't mean you aren't taking up a bed.

My partner is a doctor so I think your point about the delay to treatments is entirely valid, but I think you're railing against an opposition which isn't really there. As another poster said, no-one is "pro-lockdown", in the same way that no-one is "pro-abortion". It's just that sometimes difficult choices have to be made.

When you begin with a falsehood everything that follows has doubt cast upon it.
- anon.

A quick Google search shows the part of your post I've highlighted is patently untrue. There are plenty of people who are pro both of those things.
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Albionic

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #156 on: June 08, 2021, 04:18:13 PM »
The point of my post was that i cannot reconcile that a 0.15% death rate is a basis for arguing that the NHS being stressed was not a real situation
a) your clarification that 0.15% is a global measurement and as we are a wealthy state (ergo our death rate is likely lower) further exacerbates the point
b) I prefer to acknowledge the testimony of the experts at the coalface (health professionals), than 3rd party interpretations of reports by statisticians and academics. That might be right or wrong but its my stance.
c) i am in no way dismissing the consequences of prioritisation of Covid patients, i have myself last a long term mate to cancer during this period and it may be a different outcome could have happened but the call was made by the professionals as to who got treatment.
d) i suggest to you that the success (or not) of the covid prioritisation will only be measured accurately when long term data of annual death rates is available perhaps only in 5 / 10 years time.

I am not saying that your assertions are wrong, you may well be proven correct but until such time as proof positive can be shown I prefer to believe the health professionals did what they thought was correct and to a lesser degree the government implemented policies (often flawed) in good faith.

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baggiemart

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #157 on: June 20, 2021, 02:00:29 PM »
The problem we have regarding the vrus and lockdowns is the capacity of hospitals.

I have never heard the facts about how the population has grown in this country from 60 million in 2000 to 66 million in 2021. Thats a growth of 10%. Also take into account that the average person id also living longer.
So since 2000 governements should have been building more hospitals and employing more doctors and nurses so that now in 2021 we would have 10% more medical staff and 10% more hospitals which would have increased as the population increased. If they had done that there would never have been a reason to have a lockdown as we would have had enough resources within the NHS to cope.

This lockdown happened because suuccessive governments have failed to invest properly in the NHS.  Yes they have probably threw more money at it but that has shown the inefficincies becausr throwing more money at it has just been a waste.

TheJacko2000

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #158 on: July 19, 2021, 02:40:16 PM »
So now freedom day is upon us, what does the future look like, I'm wholly against vaccine passports, and feel they are a huge infringement of civil liberties. I don't think a Conservative government will risk fully going there.

Other countries however seem dead set on adopting them, so I envisage a future of fractured populations, divided by medical status, very concerning if its happening to you, and hopefully we see further uprisings around the world in response.

Oh and try not to get this one locked too please...
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OldburyWBA

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #159 on: July 19, 2021, 02:42:46 PM »
If this one goes like the other then it will be locked so please stick to the topic vaccine passports.
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gazberg

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #160 on: July 19, 2021, 02:45:52 PM »
Completely against them, won't stop COVID19 in the slightest. Pointless.

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #161 on: July 19, 2021, 02:51:14 PM »
No vaccine, no vaccine passport, no foreign hols  ;D (if/when we get back to some semblance of order)
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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #162 on: July 19, 2021, 03:14:59 PM »
Completely against them, won't stop COVID19 in the slightest. Pointless.
Maybe not but those who’ve been double dosed will know they are in an environment with likeminded folk which will give them 80%/90% certain that they won’t contract Covid there, add to that it will help to nail down places where an outbreak is more likely to have originated and I don’t see what’s wrong with it. Basically it’s helping others to feel comfortable in the chosen surroundings !
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BaggiePhil

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #163 on: July 19, 2021, 03:16:44 PM »
Should we apply vaccine passports to people coming from abroad?

tommcneill

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #164 on: July 19, 2021, 03:17:05 PM »
Vaccine passports is a terrible idea.....im completely against them. Its another way to divide people and create an 'us and them' situation
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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #165 on: July 19, 2021, 03:27:41 PM »
It literally involves downloading an app on your phone, and showing it to whoever needs to see it, matters none to me whatsoever. If it gives me more 'freedom' then I will gladly show it, likewise I gladly had both jabs for the same reason.
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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #166 on: July 19, 2021, 03:47:52 PM »
I already have a vaccine passport and have used it frequently (Yellow fever / Dengue / tetanus / TB / Malaria .....), adding another stamp is not an issue.
It hasn't restricted me in anyway what so ever.

Should be mandated for foreign travel in and out bound IMO

Human rights argument is clap trap in my opinion.
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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #167 on: July 19, 2021, 03:53:56 PM »
For those who say it infringes their civil liberties and human rights, on a practical level how does it actually affect you?

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #168 on: July 19, 2021, 03:59:22 PM »
For those who say it infringes their civil liberties and human rights, on a practical level how does it actually affect you?
Its terrible, instead of going on a plane, you now have to show your phone with an app on it before you go on said plane!

I think its only a problem to the anti-vaccers as they may not be allowed their 'freedom' on their terms
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TheJacko2000

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #169 on: July 19, 2021, 04:12:44 PM »
For those who say it infringes their civil liberties and human rights, on a practical level how does it actually affect you?

It depend if you have been vaccinated surely...

If you haven't then it has the potential to impact all areas of your life.
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Albionic

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #170 on: July 19, 2021, 04:17:51 PM »
It depend if you have been vaccinated surely...

If you haven't then it has the potential to impact all areas of your life.

yes you are right, but those who CHOOSE not to be vaccinated have to deal with the consequences of THEIR decision,
Those who get medical advice not to vaccinate would be so vulnerable that they wouldn't travel in the main I imagine, there may have to be reciprocal arrangements for the exceptions i would imagine.
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TheJacko2000

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #171 on: July 19, 2021, 04:24:26 PM »
yes you are right, but those who CHOOSE not to be vaccinated have to deal with the consequences of THEIR decision,
Those who get medical advice not to vaccinate would be so vulnerable that they wouldn't travel in the main I imagine, there may have to be reciprocal arrangements for the exceptions i would imagine.

There shouldn't be any consequences. That's the whole point, you cannot create a two tiered society based on an experimental medical intervention that the majority don't need. This is a disease that kills a miniscule proportion of those infected by it.
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Albionic

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #172 on: July 19, 2021, 04:31:05 PM »
There shouldn't be any consequences. That's the whole point, you cannot create a two tiered society based on an experimental medical intervention that the majority don't need. This is a disease that kills a miniscule proportion of those infected by it.

Not going there, if that is your opinion of the situation you are welcome to it.
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TheJacko2000

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #173 on: July 19, 2021, 04:42:23 PM »
Not going there, if that is your opinion of the situation you are welcome to it.

That is the situation. Nothing I wrote is an opinion aside from the view that government should not intentionally create 2 tiered societies.
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Albionic

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Re: Vaccine passports
« Reply #174 on: July 19, 2021, 04:48:10 PM »
That is the situation. Nothing I wrote is an opinion aside from the view that government should not intentionally create 2 tiered societies.

Still not going there ! :-)
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