[KN22]

He knows the game. Last night his early change probably saved us from defeat. His initial selection was based on incorrect assumptions about how the dings would set up - which could be seen as an error, but at least he acted quickly ; a lesser manager may not have.

This is where opinions come into any debate. You are praising him for acting as he did during the game, a view you are perfectly entitled to. I, on the other hand, am still annoyed at how we started, something that may well have cost us the victory we so desperately needed.

[WBArgo]

For me, he's done ok and has improved us on Bilic which was the main thing.

Having said that, he hasn't been perfect. Sometimes I think fans look at what managers can't do instead of what they can. My point is, when we get relegated, can we improve upon him? I don't think it's very likely to be honest.

For everyone who says "But look at the Barnsley manager!", what about Cocu at Derby? It's very easy to look at successful, unknown managers in hindsight but the reality of getting a gem is very different.

[Atomic]

I don’t like it because it dismisses people who don’t see the world the way you want them to see it.

No it doesn't. It doesnt dismiss logic and reason. It just dismisses opinion of those that dont offer a realistic view.

I'm 47 years old, I've lived many years listening to complete and utter rubbish based on no foundation. At my time of life I don't tolerate it any more.

Any reasoned debate I am happy to engage in but people with childish attitudes that didnt want Allardyce because he was a Dingle and then look for any tiny reason to try and back up their sad prejudices, however disguised (and they dont get past me), I ain't having.

[TheJacko2000]

I can accept we have improved slightly since he arrived but then you look at last nights selection which he got massively wrong , the performance (non) at Leicester , utter failure to get anything out of Diangana add that to the fact that he has never won promotion directly from the championship and it’s a no from me .
However the decision over his future will be the first massive clue as to the financial aims and ambitions of the club this summer

Can only assume you mean automatic promotion as he has been directly promoted out of the Championship twice in his only 2 full seasons in it.

[Hull Baggie]

I can accept we have improved slightly since he arrived but then you look at last nights selection which he got massively wrong , the performance (non) at Leicester , utter failure to get anything out of Diangana add that to the fact that he has never won promotion directly from the championship and it’s a no from me .
However the decision over his future will be the first massive clue as to the financial aims and ambitions of the club this summer

but he has won promotion twice from the championship and then kept those teams in the Pl, surely that's more important than getting automatic promotion?

[baggiejohn]

Yep. Some are prejudiced against him and you will never convert them, they are small minded people more intent with finding excuses to back up their own prejudices to themselves, than wanting what's best for West Bromwich Albion.

Sorry if that offends but it's perfectly true. They need to improve themselves as people and judge impartially.

I respect opinions that differ if there are sound reasons and logic to them but not when they are as a result of closed minds.

Good Troll 

[boinging_along]

So we've 'only' got to beat Arsenal, Liverpool, West Ham and Leeds on the trot? Sounds reasonable........ unlikely I know but can we have a picture of the look on your face posted to the site if we do it please  ?

I'm not sure a picture of my face is what would be wanted, but yeah sure.

My position is he was brought in to do a job and he's failed at that job - if we fall well short of the 38 points then it's clear that we can't use the "we were unlucky, other teams did brilliantly" excuse.

[TheJacko2000]

I'm not sure a picture of my face is what would be wanted, but yeah sure.

My position is he was brought in to do a job and he's failed at that job - if we fall well short of the 38 points then it's clear that we can't use the "we were unlucky, other teams did brilliantly" excuse.

You appear to be under the impression that 31 points from 25 games is merely doing what was expected.

Christ...

[boinging_along]

I’m not anti Sam, he’s a good manager but I actually feel pretty ambivalent about him staying. We look more solid and competitive than before but If you play devils advocate he has won 4 in 22 since he’s been here. We should have lost to Brighton and Fulham in that run. We couldn’t beat a Newcastle and Wolves team who’s form and confidence was at its lowest ebb when they showed up at the Hawthorns. In games against teams we needed to beat (in the lower half of the table) in the run in we couldn’t beat Burnley,  Sheff Utd, Fulham, Newcastle, Palace, or Wolves.

Exactly, when you read it like that - would you expect other clubs knocking on the door for our manager?  No.

[Atomic]

I'm not sure a picture of my face is what would be wanted, but yeah sure.

My position is he was brought in to do a job and he's failed at that job - if we fall well short of the 38 points then it's clear that we can't use the "we were unlucky, other teams did brilliantly" excuse.

By that logic lets bring in Guardiola now and expect him to keep us up.

It's just nonsense. Nobody with our squad would have kept us up when Allardyce was appointed, nobody.

[boinging_along]

You appear to be under the impression that 31 points from 25 games is merely doing what was expected.

Christ...

He was hired to keep us up, he was offered a 7 figure sum if he did - that's how serious we were.  We have a break in the contract at the end of the season - not usual at all when hiring a long term manager.  Pretty clear what was expected.

I'd say reaching 38 pts is a reasonable target to aim for if your aim is to stay in the league.  Seeing as you think the other clubs above us have done really well this season - then reaching 38pts, even if it meant relegation, could at least mean we felt hard done by.  If we don't get close to that then no way were we staying up.  So we're further away from safety, with a much worse goal difference, and a manager who thinks playing 5 defenders against Wolves would get us a win, and he's failed in his primary aim for the season.   At best it looks like Sam could move us up 1 place in the league. 

Sorry, but I think West Bromwich Albion can do better.  Maybe I'm just more optimistic about the club eh?

[boinging_along]

By that logic lets bring in Guardiola now and expect him to keep us up.

It's just nonsense. Nobody with our squad would have kept us up when Allardyce was appointed, nobody.

We'll never know.  All we do know is that we brought Sam in to do that very job and *he* didn't keep us up. 

And also, just to add, it's not a case of "if we go down we shouldn't keep him" - it's the manner of the relegation, setting us up to play to our weaknesses, refusing to use Diangana, playing Kanu, defending on the edge of our own box, not attacking teams, all this throughout his reign, not just looking at the past handful of games.

[Baggies]

The automatic promotion point is relevant in as much as the play offs are akin to a cup competition sudden death knockout and if you fail to make the top 2 you are statistically more likely to fail than succeed in the playoffs. It’s why I think our aim next season, with our huge financial advantage, is to replicate Norwich and Watford. Finishing top 6 should be a given next season just like it was this season due to the Championship clubs being effectively broke. Can Allardyce with his style of football achieve top 2? He hasn’t managed it so far, despite managing the favourites West Ham the last time out.

As for the analysis of Allardyce’s time here so far, while I agree the squad he inherited was hugely flawed, he was unable to get anything out of the squad for quite a while and even after he made the necessary purchases, his safety first tendencies can be looked at as one of the reasons we only picked up 1 win and 1 goal in the 5 game run that ultimately relegated us. He would need to be less cautious for us to get to the automatics next season, I’m not sure he can going on his career to date.

[TheJacko2000]

He was hired to keep us up, he was offered a 7 figure sum if he did - that's how serious we were.  We have a break in the contract at the end of the season - not usual at all when hiring a long term manager.  Pretty clear what was expected.

I'd say reaching 38 pts is a reasonable target to aim for if your aim is to stay in the league.  Seeing as you think the other clubs above us have done really well this season - then reaching 38pts, even if it meant relegation, could at least mean we felt hard done by.  If we don't get close to that then no way were we staying up.  So we're further away from safety, with a much worse goal difference, and a manager who thinks playing 5 defenders against Wolves would get us a win, and he's failed in his primary aim for the season.   At best it looks like Sam could move us up 1 place in the league. 

Sorry, but I think West Bromwich Albion can do better.  Maybe I'm just more optimistic about the club eh?

Optimism or pessimism has nothing to do with it. I'm a glass half full fan, always have been, what you appear to need is a dose of realism...

[baggiejohn]

By that logic lets bring in Guardiola now and expect him to keep us up.

It's just nonsense. Nobody with our squad would have kept us up when Allardyce was appointed, nobody.

As one of the "small minded people", you'll have to explain that one to me.

I'm pretty sure the reason Allardyce was appointed was to keep us up, seem to recall the "never been relegated" tag was bounded around quite a bit.

So from that brief, he's failed.

Turning now to what happens next.......

It really depends on the owner, ideally he should opt for a re-construct, similar to the one outlined by Standaman recently. Allegedly, he's under great pressure from the Chinese Government to get rid, so I suspect we'll go for a sticking plaster job, to get us promoted one way or another, at minimum cost.

Would I appoint SA for a re-construct? Absolutely not, but as a short term sticking plaster job, probably couldn't think of anyone better.

[boinging_along]

Optimism or pessimism has nothing to do with it. I'm a glass half full fan, always have been, what you appear to need is a dose of realism...

What part of "he was hired to keep us up" and "needing 38 pts is a good target" aren't realistic?

[TheJacko2000]

What part of "he was hired to keep us up" and "needing 38 pts is a good target" aren't realistic?

The 31 points from 25 games part.

[wodenson46]

Yep. Some are prejudiced against him and you will never convert them, they are small minded people more intent with finding excuses to back up their own prejudices to themselves, than wanting what's best for West Bromwich Albion.

Sorry if that offends but it's perfectly true. They need to improve themselves as people and judge impartially.

I respect opinions that differ if there are sound reasons and logic to them but not when they are as a result of closed minds.

Sorry if it offends but definitely pot kettle black. Might I suggest that opening your own mind to your own prejudices and to the fact that you and those that follow the same subjective views, might not have the sole rights to what is best for WBA. Most of what you and others deem to be 'anti Allardyce' is often well thought out reasoned argument, usually backed up with some factual evidence. Just because the 'pro Allardyce' faction seem to have trouble with reasoned argument does not make that reasoned argument less valid than your own subjective opinions.

I completely absolve myself from any of the above debate due to the fact that I was, and am still decidedly, irrationally and vehemently anti Allardyce and I freely admit to my own prejudices. However my mind is far from closed, I do think he has great experience, I believe that he understands the game, even the more modern variants of it, and that he should know how to  build and manage a PL team. But I believe he has not used these abilities to the benefit of WBA

At the time of his appointment, I did not think that he would be any good for WBA, and anything he has done whilst in the job has not altered my thinking. Although the accidental and enforced team selections and tactics against Chelsea and Southampton did raise my hopes that I might be wrong. For me he is Sam Allardyce first, regardless of the needs of the club the team or the players. He has made poor decisions regarding personnel and tactics and defends those poor decisions by placing blame elsewhere. He takes the utmost credit he can for what little success we have had, regardless of the actual, sometimes accidental, circumstances or others efforts behind it. He is for me a  far better BS merchant than he is a manager/head coach of WBA. Unfortunately I see too many otherwise intelligent people falling for his BS

I will add one proviso in that I do not see any much better alternatives for next season but sincerely hope there will be one. 

[wbatillidie]

Saying the players aren't good enough regardless of the manager and nobody would have kept us up is a cop out. Worse teams than us have survived before. I would rather he didn't stay, but I can see the value in keeping him. He has improved us, albeit too late and it would perhaps be silly to undo that at this point. I do find it a bit odd how much praise he's getting for the below average job he has done though.

[Baggies]

Saying the players aren't good enough regardless of the manager and nobody would have kept us up is a cop out. Worse teams than us have survived before. I would rather he didn't stay, but I can see the value in keeping him. He has improved us, albeit too late and it would perhaps be silly to undo that at this point. I do find it a bit odd how much praise he's getting for the below average job he has done though.

I agree on both of those points. It was a defective squad with the lack of a good striker and a defensive midfielder but I did sort of expect Allardyce to make us look more organised than he did in those first 10 games. I also agree that I have found the praise to be a bit much considering the fact we are likely going to finish in 19th place and that he has 4 wins from 22 games.

[boinging_along]

The 31 points from 25 games part.

You think 31 points from 25 games is unrealistic if you want to stay in the league?  That's why he was hired - or are you saying the club didn't hire him to keep us in the league?

Like I said, he was hired to keep us in the league, and if we fall far short of 38pts, then he hasn't achieved that and using other team's form as an excuse doesn't hide that either.  You think that's "unrealistic", my glass is definitely half full because I would say that is a realistic target.  Look at the points we've thrown away against relegation rivals - a couple of wins out of those, a VAR decision here or there, and we'd be right in amongst them now.

[TheJacko2000]

I agree on both of those points. It was a defective squad with the lack of a good striker and a defensive midfielder but I did sort of expect Allardyce to make us look more organised than he did in those first 10 games. I also agree that I have found the praise to be a bit much considering the fact we are likely going to finish in 19th place and that he has 4 wins from 22 games.

Purely on recent form we're likely to finish 18th and pick up a further 5 or 6 points. We needed it to be a 3 horse race with one of the over achieving teams being nearer to us and Fulham. Say a 4 point gap at this stage. Sadly it wasn't to be and 38 points from a standing start of 7 from 13 games was just not a realistic prospect.

You think 31 points from 25 games is unrealistic if you want to stay in the league?

I've struck through the irrelevant part.

Yes it's unrealistic to expect a new manager to take the same team from 0.54ppg to 1.24 ppg over almost double the number of games.

[boinging_along]

Yes it's unrealistic to expect a new manager to take the same team from 0.54ppg to 1.24 ppg over almost double the number of games.

But that's what he was hired to do, and that's the job he accepted.

[Baltic]

After 30 years of organising teams, I'd lean towards it being player quality rather than Allardyce as the cause of our defensive weakness.  SJ has been up and down, but none of the others are worthy of Prem league football.  The decision to waste wages on Ivanovic and not upgrade the defense properly in the summer was clearly a massive mistake.

We are in a very vulnerable situation now and will need an incredible transfer window (not the normal 50/50 hit and miss that most clubs achieve).  Therefore, assuming Allardyce had some input in the selection in January, we need the same success rate again.  So for me he has to stay and with a promotion bonus we can afford to keep him happy.

Over to you Luke.

[timdon]

Purely on recent form we're likely to finish 18th and pick up a further 5 or 6 points. We needed it to be a 3 horse race with one of the over achieving teams being nearer to us and Fulham. Say a 4 point gap at this stage. Sadly it wasn't to be and 38 points from a standing start of 7 from 13 games was just not a realistic prospect.

I've struck through the irrelevant part.

Yes it's unrealistic to expect a new manager to take the same team from 0.54ppg to 1.24 ppg over almost double the number of games.

Pretty pointless appointing him then, as that is exactly the expectation of the Board (and a fair few fans) when we appointed him. No getting away from it, he was given a remit and he has failed to deliver.