Poll

How would you rate Luke Dowlings tenure to date (26 may 2021)

Roaring success, we'll be lucky to keep him
2 (1.8%)
Doing well given the limitations he has to work under
9 (8.1%)
Ok
16 (14.4%)
Poor, could be doing better overall
49 (44.1%)
Abject, needs to be fired or walk,
35 (31.5%)

Total Members Voted: 111

Voting closed: June 05, 2021, 12:28:58 PM

Author Topic: Luke Dowling  (Read 132005 times)

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seteefeet

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #425 on: February 09, 2021, 11:35:52 AM »
I picked up an interesting and somewhat enlightening snippet from Joe Masi's podcast. You may question Masi's insight but whatever he does put out there is generally well sourced and he doesn't take flyers on bits of ill-informed gossip.

His understanding of how recruitment works is that the Head Coach gives Dowling a list of players and it is Dowling's job to get the players. If for whatever reason he can't get a player on the list then it is down to Dowling to suggest an alternative . To get further insight Masi has tried to get an interview with Ian Pearce Albion's head of recruitment but apparently Pearce does not do media.

I am fairly certain this is how Pulis worked with Hammond. Equally it kind of makes sense of the our recruitment across the last couple of seasons.

It is wrong on many levels. Why is it like this? I'm not sure but I suspect it goes back to the ownership and what they inherited from the Pulis era and was reinforced by Williams. It might and should have changed under Jenkins but maybe there were other fires to put out and without the ability to do something else Head Coach led recruitment is the default.
Who should it be then, the coach or the DoF? Surely a collaborative approach is the way to go.

If the coach has autonomy and requests players that we can't afford (Watkins), or don't want to come (Robinson), then where do we go? He would have to spend so much time drawing up his list of alternatives to alternatives etc. he would have no time for the players he already has.

If the DoF has autonomy then the coach will be constantly outraged by decisions made "over his head" and players he didn't want (Grosicki / Kipre)

The two most prominent examples of both this season:
Bilic held out for Grant despite him being over-priced and ultimately not suited to our style.
Hegazi sold without Bilic's knowledge.

What we need is a clear plan and structure, where the coach and DoF work as a team, they are on the same side after all.
We need DoF with a clear philosophy, who recruits accordingly whilst the coach has to become interchangeable as, if we do badly he will be sacked, if we do well he could be poached. The only way we have a manager long term is if we become incredibly mediocre, so we need a system that allows us to change coach with minimum disruption. It's all a bit "Brentford" on the face of it, but, one crucial part that is missing for them is that they haven't tried it in the Premier League.......yet.

To end on a positive though, next season is the optimum time to change. We have a manager out of contract, we have maximum parachute payments, we have saleable, but replaceable, assets and the nucleus of a squad that has achieved promotion before. Just get a competent, forward thinking DoF and the sky's the limit.  :D


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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #426 on: February 09, 2021, 11:37:47 AM »
Kipre , Grosicki and Zohore alternatives then if true and appalling ones to in terms of Bilic wouldn't touch two of them .
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #427 on: February 09, 2021, 12:19:44 PM »
A cooperation between professional people should be possible but we all know that when it comes down to football opinions it will be difficult more often than easy, one has to have the final say, surely, and make the decision on who and what and how. For me it ought to be the head coach. Obviously that is not the case, but in the event of the major disaster, it seems to be the coach that most often carries the can. Oh and if the situation is the case as Masi describes, what is the point of 'head of recruitment' ? or is he just the bean counting management stooge that seems to proliferate in most unsuccessful business operations. You know, the guy that causes most problems, gets the least flak and seems to survive under the radar even when the dirty stuff hits the rotating mechanical stuff, and none of sticks to him. Pearson 'doesn't do media' indeed! He should be forced to do media or forced out. If he is 'head' of recruitment then he has a lot to answer for. Get him up there, the Purdey bolt action Safari's are loaded and ready to go.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 12:21:57 PM by wodenson46 »

Standaman

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #428 on: February 09, 2021, 01:03:23 PM »
If I was designing this with a blank sheet of paper with nobody in situ I would start with Director of Football. They build everything around a basic style template the club's budget and it's short to medium term objectives.

In terms of recruitment it is wholly in the DoF's court. They run the recruitment team of scouts and analysts that work to the style template compile lists of alternatives targets. They also manage the pathways to the first team for academy graduates.

The DoF also hires the Head Coach again they work to a basic style template so their style is compatible with the players on the books and the likely recruits. The Head Coach works with the squad they have a role in recruitment but is largely restricted to assessing the existing players. The dialogue is largely about the positions and roles that need strengthening not the who.

Ultimately if a player needs to be sold because of financial or contractual reasons that is down to the DoF and this is not done "over the Coach's head" it isn't his call. 
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stuvetti

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #429 on: February 09, 2021, 01:26:34 PM »
If I was designing this with a blank sheet of paper with nobody in situ I would start with Director of Football. They build everything around a basic style template the club's budget and it's short to medium term objectives.

In terms of recruitment it is wholly in the DoF's court. They run the recruitment team of scouts and analysts that work to the style template compile lists of alternatives targets. They also manage the pathways to the first team for academy graduates.

The DoF also hires the Head Coach again they work to a basic style template so their style is compatible with the players on the books and the likely recruits. The Head Coach works with the squad they have a role in recruitment but is largely restricted to assessing the existing players. The dialogue is largely about the positions and roles that need strengthening not the who.

Ultimately if a player needs to be sold because of financial or contractual reasons that is down to the DoF and this is not done "over the Coach's head" it isn't his call.

Excellent contribution and really what we had in the days of Dan Ashworth. Peace recognised that if the Coach made all the decisions about selection and style of play, the next man in might possibly bin that and the financial consequences are then huge. If the incoming manager doesn't fancy the cohort of players he inherits there is then a "fire sale" and the costs of re-recruitment, which are then considerable.

We need to get back to that model, but as above it starts with a good DOF and a style of play that will endure.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #430 on: February 09, 2021, 01:28:32 PM »
If I was designing this with a blank sheet of paper with nobody in situ I would start with Director of Football. They build everything around a basic style template the club's budget and it's short to medium term objectives.

In terms of recruitment it is wholly in the DoF's court. They run the recruitment team of scouts and analysts that work to the style template compile lists of alternatives targets. They also manage the pathways to the first team for academy graduates.

The DoF also hires the Head Coach again they work to a basic style template so their style is compatible with the players on the books and the likely recruits. The Head Coach works with the squad they have a role in recruitment but is largely restricted to assessing the existing players. The dialogue is largely about the positions and roles that need strengthening not the who.

Ultimately if a player needs to be sold because of financial or contractual reasons that is down to the DoF and this is not done "over the Coach's head" it isn't his call.
Exactly. In this instance though Stan, who identifies the DoF?
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wodenson46

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #431 on: February 09, 2021, 02:08:06 PM »
If I was designing this with a blank sheet of paper with nobody in situ I would start with Director of Football. They build everything around a basic style template the club's budget and it's short to medium term objectives.

In terms of recruitment it is wholly in the DoF's court. They run the recruitment team of scouts and analysts that work to the style template compile lists of alternatives targets. They also manage the pathways to the first team for academy graduates.

The DoF also hires the Head Coach again they work to a basic style template so their style is compatible with the players on the books and the likely recruits. The Head Coach works with the squad they have a role in recruitment but is largely restricted to assessing the existing players. The dialogue is largely about the positions and roles that need strengthening not the who.

Ultimately if a player needs to be sold because of financial or contractual reasons that is down to the DoF and this is not done "over the Coach's head" it isn't his call.

Straightforward common sense as usual Standaman Sir!

Except for one thing. Is it possible our beloved football club could ever contemplate arranging anything so relatively simple and workable, let alone get the right people in the right places.

Something similar must have been in place with Dan Ashworth and eventually uncle Roy for a while, but was under JP so was very limited, but good whilst it lasted. What you describe could be even better if the initial appointments were of the required standard, made by an interested and more than solvent ownership. The change we urgently need starts right at the top. Fancy a go?

seteefeet

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #432 on: February 09, 2021, 02:25:35 PM »
Exactly. In this instance though Stan, who identifies the DoF?
That is the million dollar question!
Would have been Jenkins but now should be Ken, I guess, but exactly what qualifications does he have to oversee such an appointment? Seems Dowling has found himself a very favourable position but doesn't have the intelligence to play it out.
The right way forward is to build around the DoF and, with the people above him being clueless, Dowling has the potential to build something around his role and make himself almost indispensable, yet instead he lurches from one disaster to another. That in itself suggests he's not the man for the job!

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #433 on: February 09, 2021, 04:36:53 PM »
The Director of Football ideally needs to be a 'football' man with a deep understanding of the game and the industry, and who has business management skills. Sorry if people are bored of me giving the example,  but Bayern Munich have got it spot on. (Rumminigge, Hoeness and and now Oliver Kahn). Their Directors of Football are all ex top footballers, with roots at the club, and who have business management experience. So they are able to assess football talent, understand the football recruitment market and have a business finance backround.

Ideally we'd have somebody like Bomber Brown, but sadly, like nearly all ex players, they don't go on to develop their business management skills.
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #434 on: February 09, 2021, 04:45:11 PM »
The Director of Football ideally needs to be a 'football' man with a deep understanding of the game and the industry, and who has business management skills .......... Ideally we'd have somebody like Bomber Brown, but sadly, like nearly all ex players, they don't go on to develop their business management skills.

If any new DoF requires the opening skill set I think we can safely assume that Jonathan Greening is very firmly out of the running regardless of further training or whether he'd want the gig or not. Don't let him near the till ;D .
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Standaman

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #435 on: February 09, 2021, 06:15:16 PM »
As everyone is falling over themselves to point out the DoF is appointed by the CEO and the board.

Plainly there is a lack of confidence in the current ownership. There are two factors firstly ensuring the operating parameters are set and each role within the hierarchy has the right level of authority and autonomy. Secondly appointing the right person to the post of DOF.

To some extent the two issues are entwined. Without the right structures in place you won't find the right candidate for the role I wouldn't sign up to the current hotchpotch arrangement nor would a heavyweight DOF.

Finding the right candidate does not require those making the appointment to be steeped in football folklore. There are plenty of DOF's and while not having the public profile of Head Coaches they aren't exactly hidden. Albion even in the Championship is an attractive proposition maybe not for the Rangnick's of this world but for many other competent practitioners.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #436 on: February 09, 2021, 06:16:55 PM »
I have thought for a while that alongside encouraging players to get their coaching  badges whilst still playing; that the more academic and better suited should be encouraged and helped to get qualifications and training perhaps a Business or Management degree, to channel them into the boardroom side of the game. That way the next generation of DoF are qualified academically whilst having the footballing knowledge to go with it.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #437 on: February 09, 2021, 06:33:50 PM »
I have thought for a while that alongside encouraging players to get their coaching  badges whilst still playing; that the more academic and better suited should be encouraged and helped to get qualifications and training perhaps a Business or Management degree, to channel them into the boardroom side of the game. That way the next generation of DoF are qualified academically whilst having the footballing knowledge to go with it.
Give it Robson-Kanu then, can't be any worse than seeing him warm up on the hour mark.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #438 on: February 09, 2021, 06:55:47 PM »
With our demise, it was Bilic and Dowling also Allardyce and Dowling.
Common denominator? I shall leave it for yourselves to decide.
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #439 on: February 09, 2021, 07:08:17 PM »
With our demise, it was Bilic and Dowling also Allardyce and Dowling.
Common denominator? I shall leave it for yourselves to decide.
Why can't Lai see it?

The common denominator is probably the budget. But it appears that none of the 4 mentioned in your post are good enough either, though I still have hopes for Allardyce now he's got the 4 players in.
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #440 on: March 07, 2021, 04:06:50 PM »
Hopefully packing his bags , more than played his part in this mess and several rubbish costly signings in the last few seasons .The thought of him sat with a new manager grinning makes me feel sick .
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #441 on: March 07, 2021, 04:11:49 PM »
Just seen on Twitter the u18’s got spanked by Palace 7-1 yesterday & the U21’s are bottom of the league. Dowlings academy restructure is going well then.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #442 on: March 07, 2021, 04:19:00 PM »
To think how much free reign we gave this man and look what he gave us back in return. I dont think his higherups have any clue who to replace him with though.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #443 on: March 07, 2021, 04:19:54 PM »
Has he gone yet, I see his predecessor is doing a stirring job at Celtic.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #444 on: March 07, 2021, 04:21:46 PM »
To think how much free reign we gave this man and look what he gave us back in return. I dont think his higherups have any clue who to replace him with though.
Thats the biggest issue for me , they don't know where to turn . He still want's outing though .
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #445 on: March 07, 2021, 04:21:56 PM »
To think how much free reign we gave this man and look what he gave us back in return. I dont think his higherups have any clue who to replace him with though.

I guess in essence we are back to square one aren't we? The way the club is run is a joke. Modern Football is rubbish  :D
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #446 on: March 07, 2021, 04:23:27 PM »
Thats the biggest issue for me , they don't know where to turn . He still want's outing though .

Absolutely. Not a football wise-head above him. Thats why we are in the doo-doo.

I guess in essence we are back to square one aren't we? The way the club is run is a joke. Modern Football is rubbish  :D


Seems that way sadly. They need to appoint someone who has got a clue about football, not more number crunchers.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #447 on: March 07, 2021, 05:33:54 PM »
Has he improved the quality of the squad since he's been here? No, it's gone backwards.

With Bilic gone in January, did he provide the quality of signing necessary for a survival fight? No, they all came from Allardyce.

Since his changes to the Academy, have we improved any? No, we've gone backwards. At an alarming rate.

This man is part of the problem at the club, and we need a solution.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #448 on: March 07, 2021, 06:46:42 PM »
Has he improved the quality of the squad since he's been here? No, it's gone backwards.

With Bilic gone in January, did he provide the quality of signing necessary for a survival fight? No, they all came from Allardyce.

Since his changes to the Academy, have we improved any? No, we've gone backwards. At an alarming rate.

This man is part of the problem at the club, and we need a solution.

100% agree with this. And who is profiting from the Academy restrcuture - Villa.
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #449 on: March 07, 2021, 06:50:59 PM »
& arguably we're not even getting a return on investment by player sales

We got £1m from Leko, we'll probably get the same for Sam Field. Rodgers went to City for a decent fee. We've had fees for the likes of Tyler Roberts, Kemar Roofe, Chris Wood, etc that keep the academy in business.

The answer isn't getting rid of the position either, it's having a joined-up, long-term approach.