Poll

How would you rate Luke Dowlings tenure to date (26 may 2021)

Roaring success, we'll be lucky to keep him
2 (1.8%)
Doing well given the limitations he has to work under
9 (8.1%)
Ok
16 (14.4%)
Poor, could be doing better overall
49 (44.1%)
Abject, needs to be fired or walk,
35 (31.5%)

Total Members Voted: 111

Voting closed: June 05, 2021, 12:28:58 PM

Author Topic: Luke Dowling  (Read 131901 times)

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BalisPen

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2020, 06:48:20 PM »
Regarding Dolwing, I am undecided as to his efficacy.

He clearly sanctions great signings that should go up in value, but he counters that with absolute garbage like Zohore and Austin.

We will really see how he does next summer one the likes of Gibbs, Austin and Co and their wages are out the door.

If we go down this, it will hurt, but not as much as the financial disaster staying down would be.

Best case scenario we stay up and worse case we go down with very saleable players in mp and gd and maybe grant.

Getting out of the championship is always hard, but last season proved we could do it with a bad defence and attack and not winning in our last 4 games, so it should be possible again so if get stronger slowly by yo yoing, so be it .

Oldbury24

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2020, 02:22:06 PM »
If we had looked abroad more, we would probably have signed more foreign players.
[/quote]

Can you provide a recent example of a striker that has come into the PL as an "unknown" or been a bargain buy from a foreign league and been successful by scoring 10+ goals?  The only player i can think of in recent memory is Pukki and he had been around the block, including failure at Celtic.  Ajeti was the last name of that type we were linked with but he ended up at West Ham for £8m, warmed the bench for a year and ended up in Scotland at a £3m loss.

We hit the jackpot with Odenwingie but feel like he spoiled us.  It's a tough transition to the championship and then a massive step up to the PL so those deals tend to be the exception to the rule.   


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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2020, 03:34:32 PM »
If we had looked abroad more, we would probably have signed more foreign players.


Can you provide a recent example of a striker that has come into the PL as an "unknown" or been a bargain buy from a foreign league and been successful by scoring 10+ goals?  The only player i can think of in recent memory is Pukki and he had been around the block, including failure at Celtic.  Ajeti was the last name of that type we were linked with but he ended up at West Ham for £8m, warmed the bench for a year and ended up in Scotland at a £3m loss.

We hit the jackpot with Odenwingie but feel like he spoiled us.  It's a tough transition to the championship and then a massive step up to the PL so those deals tend to be the exception to the rule.

It's not about being unknown, as every player has some level of notoriety, especially thanks to the internet. It's about looking at who is available from those countries who could come in and do a job, something which Dowling, by and large, seems reluctant to do.

You look at the fact that big clubs have had to sell to balance the books over the last few years, Valencia and Porto being the most recent examples; there are players in those squads that we could sign that would improve us, for less money than we would pay for a domestic-based player of a similar level.

baggie82

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2020, 03:46:01 PM »
It's not about being unknown, as every player has some level of notoriety, especially thanks to the internet. It's about looking at who is available from those countries who could come in and do a job, something which Dowling, by and large, seems reluctant to do.

You look at the fact that big clubs have had to sell to balance the books over the last few years, Valencia and Porto being the most recent examples; there are players in those squads that we could sign that would improve us, for less money than we would pay for a domestic-based player of a similar level.

Both of those clubs are part of the Mendes axes and Porto in particular has turned into a Wolves feeder club. Players from either that would improve us, would not want to play for West Brom and if they are even half decent Mendes will manage them and he only moves players around his carousel of clubs, including Wolves. Your example doesn’t hold any water, unfortunately.

I think it’s more of a credible argument to identify specific players from abroad that our rivals have signed who we could have afforded and attracted and would improve the team, but once you start looking at it with real world examples rather than a theory you can see just how difficult it is. As I said earlier, Bielsa with the biggest contact book in World football, backing from owners and an obsession for the game across the World relied on Patrick Bamford to lead his attack for two seasons.




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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2020, 03:49:48 PM »
It's not about being unknown, as every player has some level of notoriety, especially thanks to the internet. It's about looking at who is available from those countries who could come in and do a job, something which Dowling, by and large, seems reluctant to do.

You look at the fact that big clubs have had to sell to balance the books over the last few years, Valencia and Porto being the most recent examples; there are players in those squads that we could sign that would improve us, for less money than we would pay for a domestic-based player of a similar level.

Ok.....take out "unknown" from my question and lets just stick with bargain.  What is a bargain?  What is cheap?  In the current market it would still appear to be anything under or around the £10m mark - taking an example of Villa paying £8.5million for Watsamatta.     

So who do Valencia or Porto have that could come in and do a job for us (bear in mind the job is goal scoring in the PL or Championship) for less than £10m.  Or even as your suggesting less than we will be willing to pay for Grant, which i'm only guessing is probably about £12-15m up front again? At least with Grant you are buying guaranteed Championship goals and the genuine potential for PL goals. 




baggie82

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #80 on: September 21, 2020, 04:22:08 PM »
Ok.....take out "unknown" from my question and lets just stick with bargain.  What is a bargain?  What is cheap?  In the current market it would still appear to be anything under or around the £10m mark - taking an example of Villa paying £8.5million for Watsamatta.     

So who do Valencia or Porto have that could come in and do a job for us (bear in mind the job is goal scoring in the PL or Championship) for less than £10m.  Or even as your suggesting less than we will be willing to pay for Grant, which i'm only guessing is probably about £12-15m up front again? At least with Grant you are buying guaranteed Championship goals and the genuine potential for PL goals.

To further demonstrate your point look at the colossal sums Villa wasted on players scouted from abroad last season.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2020, 05:36:56 PM »
Have been enjoying watching "All or Nothing: Tottenham Hotspur"

Here is a quote from Daniel Levy "Fans, general, just have no comprehension of just how hard it is to physically do a transfer"

That from a high profile Chairman and club with some financial clout
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2020, 05:40:50 PM »
Have been enjoying watching "All or Nothing: Tottenham Hotspur"

Here is a quote from Daniel Levy "Fans, general, just have no comprehension of just how hard it is to physically do a transfer"

That from a high profile Chairman and club with some financial clout

Then got the deal with Inter pretty quick

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #83 on: September 21, 2020, 05:54:03 PM »
Then got the deal with Inter pretty quick

Inter got a quality player at a very good price, because the player, wanted to leave and would have left for nothing at the end of the season. Hardly, an example now is it?
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #84 on: September 21, 2020, 05:58:22 PM »
Both of those clubs are part of the Mendes axes and Porto in particular has turned into a Wolves feeder club. Players from either that would improve us, would not want to play for West Brom and if they are even half decent Mendes will manage them and he only moves players around his carousel of clubs, including Wolves. Your example doesn’t hold any water, unfortunately.

I think it’s more of a credible argument to identify specific players from abroad that our rivals have signed who we could have afforded and attracted and would improve the team, but once you start looking at it with real world examples rather than a theory you can see just how difficult it is. As I said earlier, Bielsa with the biggest contact book in World football, backing from owners and an obsession for the game across the World relied on Patrick Bamford to lead his attack for two seasons.

If you genuinely believe all of that, then it is pointless trying to continue this argument.

Of the last 30 players to leave Porto, either on loan or permanently, 2 went to Wolves. Only one of whom was a Mendes client.

Porto aren't going to refuse to sell anybody a player, so long as they get an acceptable bid. Even if they're a Mendes client.

They might not want to play for West Brom, but a year or two at West Brom can get them where they want to go. Just like a year or two at Wolves can.

This is the reality of the situation. But you keep complaining about how bent the Dingles am.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2020, 06:01:55 PM »
Inter got a quality player at a very good price, because the player, wanted to leave and would have left for nothing at the end of the season. Hardly, an example now is it?


Technically it was exactly an example of a transfer but I'm being pedantic  ;D

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #86 on: September 21, 2020, 06:44:49 PM »

Technically it was exactly an example of a transfer but I'm being pedantic  ;D

I know and so was I  :D
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #87 on: September 21, 2020, 06:58:47 PM »
If we had looked abroad more, we would probably have signed more foreign players.


Can you provide a recent example of a striker that has come into the PL as an "unknown" or been a bargain buy from a foreign league and been successful by scoring 10+ goals?  The only player i can think of in recent memory is Pukki and he had been around the block, including failure at Celtic.  Ajeti was the last name of that type we were linked with but he ended up at West Ham for £8m, warmed the bench for a year and ended up in Scotland at a £3m loss.

We hit the jackpot with Odenwingie but feel like he spoiled us.  It's a tough transition to the championship and then a massive step up to the PL so those deals tend to be the exception to the rule.

Jimanez
Mane
Richarlison
Son
Arnautovic
Milivojevic
Mahrez
Ighalo
Ayew
Pelle
Benteke
Bony
Cisse
Remy

Going back to the 2014 season, all of the above signed from abroad and have gone on to score double figures (some for one season, others for multiple).

It's not a guarantee of course, but it does give you a wider range of options, rather than being s*** or bust on one expensive English option.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #88 on: September 21, 2020, 07:02:50 PM »
Jimanez
Mane
Richarlison
Son
Arnautovic
Milivojevic
Mahrez
Ighalo
Ayew
Pelle
Benteke
Bony
Cisse
Remy

Going back to the 2014 season, all of the above signed from abroad and have gone on to score double figures (some for one season, others for multiple).

It's not a guarantee of course, but it does give you a wider range of options, rather than being s*** or bust on one expensive English option.

Yes but would any of them been available to sign for the 20th club in the premiership with a minuscule budget? How many of those would have signed for the club favour for relegation and accepted a relegation release clause? How many of those players attracted transfers fees in excess of what we have to spend?

baggie82

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #89 on: September 21, 2020, 07:19:19 PM »
If you genuinely believe all of that, then it is pointless trying to continue this argument.

Of the last 30 players to leave Porto, either on loan or permanently, 2 went to Wolves. Only one of whom was a Mendes client.

Porto aren't going to refuse to sell anybody a player, so long as they get an acceptable bid. Even if they're a Mendes client.

They might not want to play for West Brom, but a year or two at West Brom can get them where they want to go. Just like a year or two at Wolves can.

This is the reality of the situation. But you keep complaining about how bent the Dingles am.

You call it an argument, I call it a debate. Name me a single Porto player available this summer that we could have signed that would have wanted to play for us that would be better than who we have brought in. You'll be kicking dust trying to find a workable example. Ironically that is against the backdrop of Porto struggling, I watch a fair bit of the Premier Liga.

Now I'm going to go off on a slightly detailed tangent about Mendes and his relationship with Porto as you raised it, which interplays with the earlier poster referring to Daniel Levy moaning that fans have no idea how complex transfers are.

What your post fails to appreciate is that it is common place in Portugal for players to have third party ownership with Mendes. Jota was one of them. Mendes has more power than the club. Porto don't get much choice in the matter when Mendes owns shares in the players. What happens is club X (one of Mendes carousel of clubs, we are not on the list) bids for the player. Porto then can accept or reject, BUT if they reject they have to buy out the Agent's share of the players rights, they can't afford to do so, so they have no actual choice but to accept if Mendes wants the deal to go through and he engineers all of these deals, all related with each other, moving players around 6/8 clubs in Europe. Typically you have Mendes representing the selling club, the player and the buying club. Just for good measure to make things even more dodgy the owners of wolves own a stake in Mendes agency, so when they buy a Porto teenager for £35m who has played two games (who even does that) Mendes gets a ridiculous 25% cut of the transfer fee, being £7m, that goes back into his agency, and the wolves owners get a slice back of their own cash as they part own the agency.

The interesting thing about the Portugese league is that the top clubs by law have to publish the transfer details,  that's why we know that Mendes got a 25% cut of the Porto £35m teenager deal from a couple of weeks back (rather than the standard 10% commission) and co-owned Jota before moving him onto Wolves and then Liverpool.

Wolves have 13 Portuguese players, all managed by Mendes. His power is unrivalled, Jose Mourhino works for the bloke, when Mourinho managed Madrid Mendes had his own office in the training ground. Similar process is underway at Spurs now. It's one of the key reasons Levy took Mourinho on, because of his relationship with Mendes.

You can read about it yourself here: https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/football-leaks-wolverhampton-conflict-of-interest-a-1239829.html

Then in this environment you have Downing representing an unfashionable club with a meagre budget.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 07:22:51 PM by baggie82 »

Oldbury24

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #90 on: September 21, 2020, 07:22:24 PM »
Jimanez
Mane
Richarlison
Son
Arnautovic
Milivojevic
Mahrez
Ighalo
Ayew
Pelle
Benteke
Bony
Cisse
Remy

Going back to the 2014 season, all of the above signed from abroad and have gone on to score double figures (some for one season, others for multiple).

It's not a guarantee of course, but it does give you a wider range of options, rather than being s*** or bust on one expensive English option.

A decent list. Jiminex was closer to £40m and Son over £20m but there are a number there that did come in at that £10-12m some have gone onto bigger and better and some dropped off a cliff.   However i guess with our  limited budget we need as much certainty as possible.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #91 on: September 21, 2020, 07:25:13 PM »
Did a single one of those players sign for a newly promoted club that was the favourite for relegation? That alone kills the list, which isn't particularly big when you consider it takes in not one summer but several transfer windows.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #92 on: September 21, 2020, 07:26:06 PM »
It is oh so easy to criticise, and fans have ever right to do so.

But I would suggest that those fans, being hyper critical,  should take a deep breath and try to analyse and consider the restrictions and constraints that Dowling is having to work under. He has probably made some good signings and not so good signings, but what head of recruitment hasn’t?

Those being hyper critical, if you know for definite, and not just criticising out of frustration, that he is deliberately being obtrusive, then please share that with me, so that I also can be hyper critical with good reason.
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #93 on: September 21, 2020, 07:30:24 PM »
Did a single one of those players sign for a newly promoted club that was the favourite for relegation? That alone kills the list, which isn't particularly big when you consider it takes in not one summer but several transfer windows.

Lots of them signed for lower table clubs. Players aren’t always that bothered about league position, not when we are often offering double what clubs are offering in Europe. If you can’t get a move to one of the top 5 sides in Italy, Spain or Germany, you are usually more likely to earn big money at the bottom English club than a mid table one elsewhere.

As for the list being small, if you looked at the list of strikers signed from the lower leagues in the same period, it would either be the same, or even less.

The point is we are losing out on a lot of the potential market by not looking there. We might get a good striker from the domestic market, but we give ourselves a better option if we look both home and abroad, rather than just in one.
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #94 on: September 21, 2020, 07:39:17 PM »
Lots of them signed for lower table clubs. Players aren’t always that bothered about league position, not when we are often offering double what clubs are offering in Europe. If you can’t get a move to one of the top 5 sides in Italy, Spain or Germany, you are usually more likely to earn big money at the bottom English club than a mid table one elsewhere.

As for the list being small, if you looked at the list of strikers signed from the lower leagues in the same period, it would either be the same, or even less.

The point is we are losing out on a lot of the potential market by not looking there. We might get a good striker from the domestic market, but we give ourselves a better option if we look both home and abroad, rather than just in one.

It is no more than conjecture of a few on here that we are not looking at players who are based in other leagues, yet you make that point as if it is a fact. It has been reported over the weekend and today that we are in talks with Rennes to sign Niang. We haven't suddenly decided he's a target because he was a flop at Watford three years ago in a short loan spell, we have obviously watched his progress in ligue 1 and decided he has the quality and development to now damages teams in the premiership. I remember him at Milan and not being too impressed. So I was shocked pleasantly by just how good he looked in his goals reel for the last two years at Rennes and his recent stats.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #95 on: September 21, 2020, 07:50:03 PM »
It is no more than conjecture of a few on here that we are not looking at players who are based in other leagues, yet you make that point as if it is a fact. It has been reported over the weekend and today that we are in talks with Rennes to sign Niang. We haven't suddenly decided he's a target because he was a flop at Watford three years ago in a short loan spell, we have obviously watched his progress in ligue 1 and decided he has the quality and development to now damages teams in the premiership. I remember him at Milan and not being too impressed. So I was shocked pleasantly by just how good he looked in his goals reel for the last two years at Rennes and his recent stats.

Hmmmmmmm you call it conjecture, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

As jacko and a few others have said, Niang is known to Dowling from his Watford days, it is even how the local press have reported it. If you look at our list up to this point, those that are publicly known are Grant, Gray, Deeney and Samatha, 4 domestic based players, plus Niang from abroad who was with Dowling at Watford.

If there is evidence that Dowling has a varied international scouting network then ok, but in nearly 3 seasons here, there is no evidence up to this point that he does. The only evidence we have is that Dowling signs players from the domestic market, which ties in with his previous track record at Watford where he was brought in as a domestic market expert to compliment Watford’s owner’s self professed understanding of foreign markets.

If I said to you that Burnley don’t look in the foreign markets, you wouldn’t call that conjecture would you?
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #96 on: September 21, 2020, 08:03:12 PM »
Hmmmmmmm you call it conjecture, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

As jacko and a few others have said, Niang is known to Dowling from his Watford days, it is even how the local press have reported it. If you look at our list up to this point, those that are publicly known are Grant, Gray, Deeney and Samatha, 4 domestic based players, plus Niang from abroad who was with Dowling at Watford.

If there is evidence that Dowling has a varied international scouting network then ok, but in nearly 3 seasons here, there is no evidence up to this point that he does. The only evidence we have is that Dowling signs players from the domestic market, which ties in with his previous track record at Watford where he was brought in as a domestic market expert to compliment Watford’s owner’s self professed understanding of foreign markets.

If I said to you that Burnley don’t look in the foreign markets, you wouldn’t call that conjecture would you?

There is no point discussing the transfer window from last season in the championship, which was an entirely different remit, unless you want to acknowledge what a good job everyone involved did. Forest signed players galore from the continent, how did they get on compared to us?

Moaning that Dowling knows about Niang from his Watford days is mind-numbing. He played 16 times for Watford and has 209 games elsewhere. He left Watford over three years ago. Do you seriously not think we have been more interested in his form at Rennes for the past two seasons?

The owners of Watford also owned Udinese and Granada, so a large number of players were recycled between all three clubs, you don't seem aware of that yet are trying to judge Dowling business this summer on the shenanigans at Watford.

I've said a few times that moaning about Dowling this summer with the transfer window open and our business unfinished is a classic case of fans moaning for the sake of it. He has a limited budget, lots of players to bring in and a club with limited appeal to many of our first choice targets. Once the window is closed and the players have bedded in we can judge how successful a window it has been.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #97 on: September 21, 2020, 09:12:00 PM »
Have been enjoying watching "All or Nothing: Tottenham Hotspur"

Here is a quote from Daniel Levy "Fans, general, just have no comprehension of just how hard it is to physically do a transfer"

That from a high profile Chairman and club with some financial clout

I have berm watching it too and the narcissistic levy is one talk. He ruined the upward trajectory of the best player we've produced for years with one derisory bid after another.

Transfers are hard. A buyer asks seller how much is so and so through an agent or whoever and then they should decided if they want to pay the price or walk away.

Levy uses the London press to release info to unsettle a player to save a few quid, but when it comes to him selling he wants top dollar.

I so wanted Ericksson to go on free when it happened but stupid inter came in in Jan and stupidly paid £20m and then hardly played him.

Transfers can be complicated when dealing with 3rd party ownership, but it doesn't really effect our clubs.

If levy makes a transfer complicated it is because he he trying to screw the other club.

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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #98 on: September 21, 2020, 09:16:47 PM »
i hadn't realised Eriksson wasn't getting played (astonishing),. Loan ?

(its a joke !)
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Re: Luke Dowling
« Reply #99 on: September 21, 2020, 09:18:07 PM »
I have berm watching it too and the narcissistic levy is one talk. He ruined the upward trajectory of the best player we've produced for years with one derisory bid after another.

You really think Levy was responsible for Berahino wasting his talent? His own team mates at Albion and Stoke thought he was a tool of the highest order. Morrison punched him. The Stoke players wouldn't talk to him. He spent his time inhaling hippy crack laughing gas. Compare that to Zaha who has begged to let go from Palace for two years and still turns it on every week.