[baggie82]

He keeps proving his inabilities.

Last season on the back of everyone's efforts we got automatic promotion and this season we got what we deserved an immediate relegation. It's not realistic to expect a club with our budget over the past 24 months to compete in the premiership, and everyone on here throwing mud at the director of football would do well to remember that and be more realistic in their expectations. I see comments like "not all loan signings have worked out though" which is a fanciful and bizarre mindset. How many players did Alex Ferguson sign that were terrible? The reason I'm reluctant to throw much shade at our DOF is that the clubs performance over the last three seasons has been above or at least consistent with what could be expected given our meagre resources.

[Albionic]

I'd be interested to know what our "churn rate' is compared to other clubs, off to google....

[baggiejohn]

Last season on the back of everyone's efforts we got automatic promotion and this season we got what we deserved an immediate relegation. It's not realistic to expect a club with our budget over the past 24 months to compete in the premiership, and everyone on here throwing mud at the director of football would do well to remember that and be more realistic in their expectations. I see comments like "not all loan signings have worked out though" which is a fanciful and bizarre mindset. How many players did Alex Ferguson sign that were terrible? The reason I'm reluctant to throw much shade at our DOF is that the clubs performance over the last three seasons has been above or at least consistent with what could be expected given our meagre resources.

I can't argue about the meagre resources, but, as I've said before, I'm not sure I'd have gone into the transfer market with only £20 odd million to spend.

In January, we brought in reinforcements for transfer fees of around £1 million, the rest of the spend was on loan fees & wages.

Think you've used the analogy of buying a house in arguments in the past, perhaps last summer was the time to rent instead.

[Oldbury24]

I can't argue about the meagre resources, but, as I've said before, I'm not sure I'd have gone into the transfer market with only £20 odd million to spend.

In January, we brought in reinforcements for transfer fees of around £1 million, the rest of the spend was on loan fees & wages.

Think you've used the analogy of buying a house in arguments in the past, perhaps last summer was the time to rent instead.

You can please all of the people etc......Another thread on here is bemoaning the amount of loans we use to bolster the squad. 

For a club of our status, which is currently in yoyo land, loans and at best loans to perm will be vital.  The key is which loan shark you use....Dowling needs to show he can really use the international market better next year.  We did this to an extent under SA bringing in OK and Diagne so there is hope.

[boinging_along]

You can please all of the people etc......Another thread on here is bemoaning the amount of loans we use to bolster the squad. 

For a club of our status, which is currently in yoyo land, loans and at best loans to perm will be vital.  The key is which loan shark you use....Dowling needs to show he can really use the international market better next year.  We did this to an extent under SA bringing in OK and Diagne so there is hope.

It's difficult though if the loans are a failure then odds on you've not done well.  If they succeed then you start the next season behind the line - you need to spend just to get yourselves back to the promotion squad.

I'm not sure there's an answer really.

[baggiejohn]

You can please all of the people etc......Another thread on here is bemoaning the amount of loans we use to bolster the squad. 

For a club of our status, which is currently in yoyo land, loans and at best loans to perm will be vital.  The key is which loan shark you use....Dowling needs to show he can really use the international market better next year.  We did this to an extent under SA bringing in OK and Diagne so there is hope.

It really depends on the quality of players available in the loans market. At the moment, due to covid, & clubs are trying to unload cost of wages, there's some really good players about even if you restrict yourself to the UK market.
Pretty sure it was the loans market that Jenkins was referring to when he said there would be some bargains to be had.

[baggie82]

It really depends on the quality of players available in the loans market. At the moment, due to covid, & clubs are trying to unload cost of wages, there's some really good players about even if you restrict yourself to the UK market. Pretty sure it was the loans market that Jenkins was referring to when he said there would be some bargains to be had.

It makes sense to case the net as far and wide as possible but that doesn't mean that international market is the holy grail and the answer to all of our problems. The scouting systems of clubs is far improved from the early 2000s when it was easier to pick up a Mulumbu, Yacob and Odemwinge overlooked by others. Allardyce explained that we made enquires for over 200 players in the January window alone. Nobody complained that Harvey Barnes was recruited from Leicester. Ultimately, all we care about is getting the right quality of player in. Although it would help if the club stopped switching managers every summer so that we gave a manager the time and space to build a squad rather than sacking / hiring coaches that don't want to work with the players we have and/or play to their strengths.

[johnny Cash]

Personally I’ve no problem with loans, but they should be a supplement to a squad and not be the core of it. Too much of the team we finished the season with was on loan, which was out of necessity in the end but poor planning and spending elsewhere created that situation.

If I were DOF I’d have a plan to address the first 11 over a three / four year period. It won’t always be possible to follow that plan either but I’d have one in mind.  Any manager would need to buy in to it albeit id also need to be flexible to the managers wants and needs at times too.  That’s one or two times a year though, not 5 signings a window.

The times it’s not possible to follow the plan it is hopefully because a player has excelled and a good fee has come in but some signings will fail.  Loans can help supplement the failures.

 

[Oldbury24]

Personally I’ve no problem with loans, but they should be a supplement to a squad and not be the core of it. Too much of the team we finished the season with was on loan, which was out of necessity in the end but poor planning and spending elsewhere created that situation.

If I were DOF I’d have a plan to address the first 11 over a three / four year period. It won’t always be possible to follow that plan either but I’d have one in mind.  Any manager would need to buy in to it albeit id also need to be flexible to the managers wants and needs at times too.  That’s one or two times a year though, not 5 signings a window.

The times it’s not possible to follow the plan it is hopefully because a player has excelled and a good fee has come in but some signings will fail.  Loans can help supplement the failures.

This does come back to a point I was making earlier.  Are we operating on a DOF model with a coach supporting OR a more traditional model with the manager arranging his own recruitment. Both have worked well for us in the past but what doesn't work is a half arsed version where no one person seem a to be in charge...which is where we ended up last season.

Either trust your DOF and recruitment team to get in the right players for a coach to work with or give that role to a manager   We need to understand where the buck stops.

[boinging_along]

I suppose one fix for the loans is to do what we did with Pierera and have a buy clause built in at a reasonable value.

It'll really limit your loan market though.

[Dexy]

Last season on the back of everyone's efforts we got automatic promotion and this season we got what we deserved an immediate relegation. It's not realistic to expect a club with our budget over the past 24 months to compete in the premiership, and everyone on here throwing mud at the director of football would do well to remember that and be more realistic in their expectations. I see comments like "not all loan signings have worked out though" which is a fanciful and bizarre mindset. How many players did Alex Ferguson sign that were terrible? The reason I'm reluctant to throw much shade at our DOF is that the clubs performance over the last three seasons has been above or at least consistent with what could be expected given our meagre resources.

We fell over the line and only because Brentford blew up , I don't see many throwing mud in all fairness but I do see a list of signings a few pages back since Dowling has been here that the majority are A. Not good enough and B . Poor value for money although net wise that will be masked with SJ and MP leaving and neither were anything to do with Dowling.
You can bring up Barnes ( Dowling wasn't here was then was he ? ) just as I can offer you a Montero or Murphy as his replacement when Leicester recalled him in the Winter window.
Nobody would argue about our lack of Summer funds but I would point back to the season before , Zohore / Grosiki / Austin all on decent money . 2 of those have done very little and we will see a poor return both money wise and on the pitch . I like Austin but bringing him here on a 2 year deal with a one year option and a decent rise if we got up is poor business , its worse when he didn't really suit Bilic's style and eventually lost his place to HRK . There is the arguement we got up so the riches came in but thats not a lot of fun on a matchday when he's not even making the bench and like Zohore we have to pay a big wedge just to get them out on loan .
I wouldn't mind if Dowling had a clear plan but one minute its Austins(short term )then when we need somebody its one for the squad like Kipre who Bilic and Sam wouldn't touch at all .
I can't be the only one worried about a large rebuild via the SJ and MP money with this bloke lurking .

[MarkW]

We fell over the line and only because Brentford blew up , I don't see many throwing mud in all fairness but I do see a list of signings a few pages back since Dowling has been here that the majority are A. Not good enough and B . Poor value for money although net wise that will be masked with SJ and MP leaving and neither were anything to do with Dowling.
You can bring up Barnes ( Dowling wasn't here was then was he ? ) just as I can offer you a Montero or Murphy as his replacement when Leicester recalled him in the Winter window.
Nobody would argue about our lack of Summer funds but I would point back to the season before , Zohore / Grosiki / Austin all on decent money . 2 of those have done very little and we will see a poor return both money wise and on the pitch . I like Austin but bringing him here on a 2 year deal with a one year option and a decent rise if we got up is poor business , its worse when he didn't really suit Bilic's style and eventually lost his place to HRK . There is the arguement we got up so the riches came in but thats not a lot of fun on a matchday when he's not even making the bench and like Zohore we have to pay a big wedge just to get them out on loan .
I wouldn't mind if Dowling had a clear plan but one minute its Austins(short term )then when we need somebody its one for the squad like Kipre who Bilic and Sam wouldn't touch at all .
I can't be the only one worried about a large rebuild via the SJ and MP money with this bloke lurking .

You're right - Barnes came in the summer before Dowling was appointed. All of Big Dave's summer signings were before Dowling came in.

[boinging_along]

My worry is that we get the cash for SJ and MP in but it's not really added to a war chest, just that the same amount will be available and the money will just be absorbed.  Obviously it would never happen, but would be nice for the club to say "we have a £15m budget plus whatever we get on player sales".

[Dexy]

My worry is that we get the cash for SJ and MP in but it's not really added to a war chest, just that the same amount will be available and the money will just be absorbed.  Obviously it would never happen, but would be nice for the club to say "we have a £15m budget plus whatever we get on player sales".

More than anything I think the short term solutions need to stop .

[Dexy]

While there's no cash input from the owner, I think it's likely we'll use the loan market quite extensively again this summer.

Although the players are not yours, there is no long term commitment either, so, in some ways, there's an element of safety built in if they fail.
As you say, we have 4 loan players that we now have to replace, but had we stayed up, the chances are we would have retained them.

I'm confident that this season's loanees will be replaced by 4 other loanees suitable for a season in the Championship.

From a business point of view that makes perfect sense John but actually loading up your squad with loan players each year wouldn't be healthy .
Our better sides in recent years have had a solid spine of longer term players .
To build a base / spine then add a few loan players is the way to go .

[baggie82]

We fell over the line and only because Brentford blew up

It's called success Dexy. I can only pray we fall over the line this season.

I chopped out the rest of your post commenting on the merits of the players we have signed as a) I think your expectations on how successful our transfer activity should be against our resources are unrealistic, b) I don't agree with you on the success of players like Austin etc and c) we have talked about this a million times so don't want to go around the houses again.

The only thing I can guarantee is that whoever we sign this summer that turns out to be a success will be met with cries in a year of "that was nothing to do with Dowling"....as many forum members have a direct line into the club scouting department and transfer negotiations, or that's the impression they like to pass off.

[Dexy]

It's called success Dexy. I can only pray we fall over the line this season.

I chopped out the rest of your post commenting on the merits of the players we have signed as a) I think your expectations on how successful our transfer activity should be against our resources are unrealistic, b) I don't agree with you on the success of players like Austin etc and c) we have talked about this a million times so don't want to go around the houses again.

The only thing I can guarantee is that whoever we sign this summer that turns out to be a success will be met with cries in a year of "that was nothing to do with Dowling"....as many forum members have a direct line into the club scouting department and transfer negotiations, or that's the impression they like to pass off.

I called it a warning , one that between Dowling and Slav they made a mess of in the Summer. If your going to debate with me have the manners not to chop my post , it doesn't look good on you Baggie 82 .  You think Austin , Grosiki and Zohore were good business from Dowling ? Ok if thats your view , that list of signings since Dowling arrived both from him and ones he has over seen says it all and I'm not alone in saying that .
Point B , resources ....biggest budget in the Champs and yes we got up but had players like Austin , Zohore and Grosiki not playing the next season . Zohore barely got a game in that league , all on good deals . That impacts on the next season Premier budget hugely for a club like ours.

[baggie82]

I called it a warning , one that between Dowling and Slav they made a mess of in the Summer. If your going to debate with me have the manners not to chop my post , it doesn't look good on you Baggie 82 .  You think Austin , Grosiki and Zohore were good business from Dowling ? Ok if thats your view , that list of signings since Dowling arrived both from him and ones he has over seen says it all and I'm not alone in saying that .

To answer your query on the three signings your have cherry picked:
-Austin: Without him we would not have got promoted, he was a success, brought in to score the goals to get us up and he pretty much did that.
-Zohore: Failure and waste of money, reeked of a panic buy.
-Grosicki: Very talented player, criminally underused. No substantial transfer fee spent on him. Again he played his part in our promotion season at a point when the squad was declining. There was clearly something going on with his contract and wages last season and there was that farce with him being sold after deadline day in January. We paid £800k for Grosicki - how many times do you a Polish international with 100 appearances for that.

[Dexy]

To answer your query on the three signings your have cherry picked:
-Austin: Without him we would not have got promoted, he was a success, brought in to score the goals to get us up and he pretty much did that.
-Zohore: Failure and waste of money, reeked of a panic buy.
-Grosicki: Very talented player, criminally underused. No substantial transfer fee spent on him. Again he played his part in our promotion season at a point when the squad was declining. There was clearly something going on with his contract and wages last season and there was that farce with him being sold after deadline day in January. We paid £800k for Grosicki - how many times do you a Polish international with 100 appearances for that.

I haven't cherry picked anybody , I use those 3 as they are Dowling lead . We had some usage from Austin but really it was a bad fit from day one on good money .I think saying Grosiki played his part is pushing it other than Hull at home , another decent money that went up in and we'll see little return hence why the club tried to unload him to Forest.
There's a huge list of deals other than those three a few pages back , I'm not saying anything that isn't clearly right there . You can call it mud slinging or what you want , it isn't from me . No structure , no pattern of signings, no forward thinking . Its putting bigger and bigger plasters over weak areas each window .

[baggie82]

I haven't cherry picked anybody , I use those 3 as they are Dowling lead . We had some usage from Austin but really it was a bad fit from day one on good money .I think saying Grosiki played his part is pushing it other than Hull at home , another decent money that went up in and we'll see little return hence why the club tried to unload him to Forest.
There's a huge list of deals other than those three a few pages back , I'm not saying anything that isn't clearly right there . You can call it mud slinging or what you want , it isn't from me . No structure , no pattern of signings, no forward thinking . Its putting bigger and bigger plasters over weak areas each window .

It's all about opinions. If we now sold all the players we have bought over the past two seasons we would end up with a lot more money in than we have paid out and these signings are part of a promotion team.

[GREGMT]

In 2019/20 Bilic earnt WBA a £100m+ pay day.  This wasn't achieved in 2018/19 under Moore and Shan.

People picking holes about whether signings for £5m or less were VFM is small time IMO.

Facts:

- Smith kept Villa up by skin of their teeth spending £100m in one season.
- Parker has spent £100m+ this season and relegated Fulham.
- How were WBA going tostay up this season with a £20m net spend?  Near Impossible.

[Albionic]

It's all about opinions. If we now sold all the players we have bought over the past two seasons we would end up with a lot more money in than we have paid out and these signings are part of a promotion team.

I would normally be more aligned to your view 82, BUT,

1 exceptional talent tips the scales dramatically in that equation, remove Periera and then judge?

[baggie82]

In 2019/20 Bilic earnt WBA a £100m+ pay day.  This wasn't achieved in 2018/19 under Moore and Shan.

People picking holes about whether signings for £5m or less were VFM is small time IMO.

Facts:

- Smith kept Villa up by skin of their teeth spending £100m in one season.
- Parker has spent £100m+ this season and relegated Fulham.
- How were WBA going tostay up this season with a £20m net spend?  Near Impossible.

Well said GREGMT. When standing back and looking at everything as whole I don't see any correlation between the attitude of some on here to our DOF and what is realistic. Alex Ferguson, the greatest manager of all time signed Bebe, Kleberson, Taibi, Diouf, Obertan & Djemba-Djemba.

[WorcsWBA]

As Dowling's still here, I assume they're not going to sack him before a new manager is appointed and, presumably, not this summer. As he's the only one on the Board that knows anything at all about football. perhaps they don't want to be having to replace him and the manager at the same time?

Getting rid of Dowling now would easily delay the appointment of a manger by a month or even longer. He should really have gone a month ago.

[GREGMT]

Well said GREGMT. When standing back and looking at everything as whole I don't see any correlation between the attitude of some on here to our DOF and what is realistic. Alex Ferguson, the greatest manager of all time signed Bebe, Kleberson, Taibi, Diouf, Obertan & Djemba-Djemba.

Exactly. 

How can all signings at a football club be a success?  It's impossible! 

Just highlights what an exceptional job Dan Ashworth did in that 8 year period.

Trouble is people are expecting this as the norm, when instead it was an exceptional set of circumstances.