Author Topic: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?  (Read 10569 times)

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TheJacko2000

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We've now conceded 2 goals in each of our last 5 home matches.


Despite people saying individuals playing well, and the defensive shield supposedly having a revelation season it isn't borne out by the stats or the facts.


What is the solution, if any?
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2019, 05:30:09 PM »
We've now conceded 2 goals in each of our last 5 home matches.


Despite people saying individuals playing well, and the defensive shield supposedly having a revelation season it isn't borne out by the stats or the facts.


What is the solution, if any?

Don't think there is an issue, top of the league, Hegazi to step in when needed, plenty of full back cover.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2019, 05:41:09 PM »
Top of the league, both Charlton goals had a bit of luck. 

If you go by your usual judgements then we were 2-1 up, Brunt comes on and we draw 2-2... #JustSaying

(And no, I'm not blaming the result on Brunt)

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2019, 05:49:36 PM »
There is definitely a problem, people are just choosing to ignore it due to the fact we’ve only lost once this season.

We have a goalkeeper who excels in close shot stopping but can’t save anything 20+ yards. That’s a big problem. His kicking is all very inconsistent. He’s our biggest problem that we still haven’t fixed from last season.

CB wise, Ajay is improvement on Dawson but still has lapses in concentration.. see 94th minute today. Bartley is poor, Hegazi should replace ASAP.

Full backs we are strong although Furlong is essentially a Right midfielder when we have the ball and Ferguson turns into a CB of a back 3. I do like Gibbs and I think he should come back into the team when not injured, he gives us a different attacking quality.

Livermore I think actually does a good job and has been much more improved this season
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2019, 05:58:29 PM »
We have conceded far too many goals and we have only managed two clean sheets all season and absolutely none at home.

Yes we are top of the league but it's concerning how vulnerable we look at times. I think both Barnsley and Charlton have identified our weaknesses and exploited them this week. I think Sawyers is a great footballer but he gives the ball away very cheaply at times, why didn't he let the ball go out of play before Charlton won the pen? He also doesn't seem to track his man particularly well.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2019, 06:11:41 PM »
As i've said on another thread, full-backs in their natural positions. Gibbs when fit starts every time for me and if not fit Townsend or even Brunt. Ferguson and Furlong battle for the RB spot.

Bring in Hegazi, harsh on Bartley but basically he's better. I'd even be tempted to go with Hegazi in for one of the midfielders with Ajayi pushed alongside Livermore and a CB pair of Hegazi and Bartley.

If we did the above we'd have to sacrifice one of Sawyers, Periera, Diangana or Phillips. I'm not paid to make that decision!
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2019, 07:43:04 PM »
Top of the league, both Charlton goals had a bit of luck. 

If you go by your usual judgements then we were 2-1 up, Brunt comes on and we draw 2-2... #JustSaying

(And no, I'm not blaming the result on Brunt)
Me and jack have regularly locked horns, but in his defence....on this one you’ve mentioned today’s bad luck (fair enough) but his point about 10 conceded in 5 home games is not down to luck nor a one off

It does feel a bit weird being top and feeling so annoyed, but this team could and should be better off ( in points) than we are
During this season many occasions people have praised Slav for making relevant in game changes...does it mean we are not setting up properly to start with?
I still believe our keeper is way below our standard required for promotion, but he made a couple of saves and got a clean sheet and it felt that no one was allowed an opinion on him anymore
Ajayi, if you watch each match...it’s Bartley that goes forward for the blocks (great one today) and the clearing headers....I’m not knocking ajayi, just maybe he’s not a natural CD ....could the answer be Bartley with Hegazi .....or even the three ?
Ferguson.....3 matches ago he’s world class and spurs will need30m, I’m not levelling all or any of the issues at him particularly but he’s young and playing in an alien position on his wrong foot ....sometimes you play the position not the player, look when England had scholes wide left ...waste
Austin ....useless , I know some will try and defend him but he does nothing and looks shot ....however for some reason Slav keeps with him, for me we need someone like Shane long , he holds the ball well and chases down like a man possessed , I’m not sure Gayle works in this set up, but if we went 352 or 442 with willock/Gayle and long (or either with Zohore) I think we would tear the league up....and keep the ball further up the field

I think sawyers and Livermore are ok, if anything it’s the “ballers” that may be the problem, should we play krovinovic and one of pereira / Phillips/Diangana until we have locked the defence problems down?

Anyway around, the point is valid, the goals against need to stop
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2019, 08:01:19 PM »
For me the big issue defensively starts up front teams know Austin isn’t going to do them for pace in behind  so they are able to squeeze 10 yards and pressure our midfield in particular Perriera and Diangana . If we had someone with pace who can run behind the opposition wouldn’t be able to squeeze as we would pick them off .

Another issue tactically is that by playing 2 right footed players on the left hand side of our defence it has left us noticeably unbalanced in the last 2 games .

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2019, 08:10:36 PM »
It’s great being top & playing attractive football is just brilliant, however a lack of clean sheets is a concern & means we are under pressure to score more than once in every game.
I know it’s a cliche, but  ‘goals win games, defence wins titles’ is very true.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2019, 08:26:44 PM »
For all the nice football this side screams out for a ball winner in the Mulumbu/Yacob mould . In many ways the current side reminds me of Mowbrays side , weak at key times.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2019, 08:49:50 PM »
For all the nice football this side screams out for a ball winner in the Mulumbu/Yacob mould . In many ways the current side reminds me of Mowbrays side , weak at key times.

Yet Mowbray's team bought the only Silverware to the club ever seen in my lifetime and we're top of the league and realistically can improve drastically so it's weird that we're all here looking for a solution to our problems that are without doubt there.

Someone said something great - play the position. Gibbs and Hegazi in will improve things i think.

I also think we need to address both ends of the pitch, i'm not a Johnstone fan and as much as i rate how Austin has been for us and i don't see a has-been, we need a goalscorer up top. If he had bagged 4 or 5 more we would most likely be looking at a better lead. I hope he starts hitting the net regularly soon.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2019, 08:55:38 PM »
Yet Mowbray's team bought the only Silverware to the club ever seen in my lifetime and we're top of the league and realistically can improve drastically so it's weird that we're all here looking for a solution to our problems that are without doubt there.

Someone said something great - play the position. Gibbs and Hegazi in will improve things i think.

I also think we need to address both ends of the pitch, i'm not a Johnstone fan and as much as i rate how Austin has been for us and i don't see a has-been, we need a goalscorer up top. If he had bagged 4 or 5 more we would most likely be looking at a better lead. I hope he starts hitting the net regularly soon.
Without going over old ground that side was badly found out in the middle the next season.
Getting carried away but if we got up (if) , I've often found myself thinking the Livermore / Sawyers pairing won't be strong enough . I'm not sure its fully working now in all honesty despite both playing well at times this season.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2019, 09:15:12 PM »
Leeds have the opposite problem, loads of clean sheets and struggling to score.

For me we are not clinical and ruthless enough.  Man City play open, expansive football but often they'll get an unassailable lead by 70mins which takes care of the whole match.  When this happens the opposition get deflated, lose confidence.

As was the case today, we are hanging on with a slender lead due to missed chances, which makes the defence / keeper nervous.

IMO the missing piece in the jigsaw is a top striker at this level, which actually will allow us to concede fewer and record more clean sheets.

Anyhow, we have 2 players to come back who'd walk into other teams; Gibbs and Hegazi.



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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2019, 10:45:25 PM »
We want attacking football which we are getting ? A midfield of two with a Yacob or Mulumbu type won't allow us the deep lying play-maker type that Sawyers is. If we want fluent incisive football which involves a deep lying play-maker and uses Pereira's talents centrally then the current formation is fine and Livermore has done well this season.

As said above, it's the missed chances/ lack of killer instinct that is costing us a couple of points here and there. 

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2019, 12:58:37 PM »
Yet Mowbray's team bought the only Silverware to the club ever seen in my lifetime and we're top of the league and realistically can improve drastically so it's weird that we're all here looking for a solution to our problems that are without doubt there.

Someone said something great - play the position. Gibbs and Hegazi in will improve things i think.

I also think we need to address both ends of the pitch, i'm not a Johnstone fan and as much as i rate how Austin has been for us and i don't see a has-been, we need a goalscorer up top. If he had bagged 4 or 5 more we would most likely be looking at a better lead. I hope he starts hitting the net regularly soon.
Thanks 😊

Agree about the striker and keeper, if we had 2 more clean sheets and could finish our chances with a slightly better conversion rate we would be 6-9 points clear
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2019, 01:06:36 PM »
Now we've had a few replies here is what I think. The goal keeper isn't good enough and I hope Bilić will do a Bielsa in January and look to replace.


Gibbs has to play left back, if he's not available then it's Townsend or Brunt.


I'm not too fussed who out of Ferguson and Furlong plays on the right they're both good enough.


The much maligned Kyle Bartley is, despite that block yesterday an accident waiting to happen and not a natural left sided centre back. Hegazi comes in for me immediately. Ajayi keeps his place as it's a massive plus to have a bit of pace at the heart of the defence.


I think midfield is a massive problem defensively and maybe I should have included Sawyers in the thread title.


It has become the fashionable thing to talk up Jake Livermore, no idea why as the improvements to his game under Bilić are just that he now gets basic passes right and doesn't hide as much in possession. What he doesn't do is offer any protection to the back four and goalkeeper whatsoever. We are crying out for a 'Kante-lite', all action, tenacious, massive engine, who can win the ball and then give it simple to Sawyers to play out. Mulumbu in his youth.


Livermore isn't it, Field definitely isn't it, Barry isn't, and I've come round to thinking neither Brunt or Krovinović (who would both improve us going forward compared to Livermore) would be anything but further detrimental to a leaky defence.


In summation January isn't about a striker for me. It's about a goal keeper and a defensive midfielder. I hope Slaven is of a mind.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2019, 01:43:10 PM »
Bilic made a huge mistake yesterday in not picking Hegazi. I accept that Bartley actually had a good game yesterday but one swallow doesn't make a summer. Quality and consistency wins you leagues / gets you promoted. We have evidence over 46 games last season and the opening dozen or so games this season that Bartley isn't consistently good enough. We conceded two goals again against Barnsley, yesterday was ideal time to re-introduce Hegazi, Slaven, for me, bottled it. If he / anyone else thinks we can keep conceding the number of goals we do and get promoted I'm afraid they are wrong, it won't happen.

Gibbs isn't the answer at left back, defensively he's terrible. He may be decent on the ball but we have to become more solid, Gibbs won't help us in that regard.




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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2019, 01:44:22 PM »
Slav seems happy to abdicate the front and centre of midfield and let teams come on to us we defend about the 30-35 yard area, when we regain the ball we then use our pace and skill to break on the oppo,
It’s working at the moment as we are top but the signs are there that it’s been sussed out, I think the strength in depth we have is helping as Slavs subs against tiring teams almost invariably come good
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2019, 03:23:46 PM »
Slav seems happy to abdicate the front and centre of midfield and let teams come on to us we defend about the 30-35 yard area, when we regain the ball we then use our pace and skill to break on the oppo,
It’s working at the moment as we are top but the signs are there that it’s been sussed out, I think the strength in depth we have is helping as Slavs subs against tiring teams almost invariably come good
It the being sussed out thing that worries me, a bit like last year, as the season goes on our soft centre could well cost us big time like the passing out from the back did - we haven't played any of the really strong teams at home yet either.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2019, 03:29:31 PM »
I agree Gibbs/Townsend should come in for Ferguson, and they will have to now that he is out for a few games.

Hegazi should be in already for Bartley, no idea why he isn't. Hegazi is a far superior player in every respect. While Bartley has been better than last season with a run of games and less pressure to play out from the back, he is still an accident waiting to happen. The opposition know this, both Barnsley and Charlton closed down everyone in our side except Bartley who they gave time to play it out and make a mistake (though to be fair Ajayi made a pretty major one yesterday which I am not sure for the life of me how they managed to cock up).

With those two changes I think we would look a lot better.

We do seem to get over run in midfield a lot, but I guess that's just the way Bilic likes to play. He doesn't seem to mind sacrificing the midfield in favour of having the wingers and Pereira playing a free role. It does mean we get cut open at will at times even against Barnsley.

Might be worth giving Phillips a go upfront while Zohore is out, as I don't think Austin is suited to the three behind him at all. Once Zohore is fit he should be up there for me, at least he has pace.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2019, 04:20:55 PM »
No argument that Hegazi should come back. I would however bring him back on the left side of centre and play Bartley on the right. What he does with Ajayi is his decision but I genuinely believe that Hegazi and Bartley should play. And yes I would always play Gibbs when fit, Townsend when Gibbs is not available.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2019, 05:55:13 PM »
No argument that Hegazi should come back. I would however bring him back on the left side of centre and play Bartley on the right. What he does with Ajayi is his decision but I genuinely believe that Hegazi and Bartley should play. And yes I would always play Gibbs when fit, Townsend when Gibbs is not available.
Have to, reluctantly, agree, Hegazi in for Ajayi for me. Never seen  Ajayi play DM but would hope he is better than Livermore so could just fall into place. Will see if a natural left footer at LB gives us better balance at the back but, despite loving Ferguson, I think it might. Just need to sort the striker conundrum but would like to see Willock make the bench at least.
All that said, we are too of the league, having lost one game so it is about improving and getting better rather than solving any sort of crisis. Loving football at the minute.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2019, 06:12:25 PM »
Wouldn't mind a back three to accommodate our natural wingbacks in Furlong and Gibbs. Ferguson Bartley and Hegazi, Semi moved into midfield to partner Romaine as for striker I'd be willing to see how Phillips goes least he knows where back of the net is.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2019, 06:15:53 PM »
Wouldn't mind a back three to accommodate our natural wingbacks in Furlong and Gibbs. Ferguson Bartley and Hegazi, Semi moved into midfield to partner Romaine as for striker I'd be willing to see how Phillips goes least he knows where back of the net is.

I was in the process of typing the same as the first part of that, would solve a lot of issues, not least of which is having some bite & pace in central midfield, this formation has to worth a trial
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2019, 06:42:01 PM »
I knew it would eventually come to suggestions of any change to get rid of Livermore, as prompted by Jacko's OP.
Disgraceful.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2019, 06:53:57 PM »
I knew it would eventually come to suggestions of any change to get rid of Livermore, as prompted by Jacko's OP.
Disgraceful.
Why is it disgraceful to suggest a change in personnel? Should we just play the same 11 for 46 games?
What has Livermore done to exempt him from criticism?

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2019, 07:15:07 PM »
Why is it disgraceful to suggest a change in personnel? Should we just play the same 11 for 46 games?
What has Livermore done to exempt him from criticism?
Non above criticism, but in imo Livermore is less of a pressing need to sort than both
Austin
Johnstone

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2019, 07:29:35 PM »
Non above criticism, but in imo Livermore is less of a pressing need to sort than both
Austin
Johnstone
Don't disagree but it still doesn't make it a disgraceful suggestion.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2019, 07:31:41 PM »
I go to all away games, where I have seen us gain 15 points  from 7 games whilst conceding only 5 goals. We play with the same core squad every week but for some reason in home games we seem quite casual, bordering on careless, early in the game . I do not see this at away games, where the team seems more focused.  It has got to the point where on arriving at an away game , I am always confident of the team getting a result, but at home I am always very nervous irrespective of the perceived strength of the opposition.
Opposition teams are more physical when they come to the Hawthorns, because they know that if they are anything less than 100% competitive they will most likely get beaten, and any complacency amongst our players gives them the edge.
Maybe the disparity about goals conceded at home versus away is more about mind-sets than formations.
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iwastherein68

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2019, 07:38:08 PM »
Why is it disgraceful to suggest a change in personnel? Should we just play the same 11 for 46 games?
What has Livermore done to exempt him from criticism?
The changes in personnel suggested are almost always directed at the expense of Livermore, Bartley, and Johnstone, who in my humble opinion are no more responsible for goals conceded at home than anyone else in the team.  Livermore the main target and his performance levels have been very good this season.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2019, 07:50:12 PM »
The changes in personnel suggested are almost always directed at the expense of Livermore, Bartley, and Johnstone, who in my humble opinion are no more responsible for goals conceded at home than anyone else in the team.  Livermore the main target and his performance levels have been very good this season.
That's where we disagree I'm afraid, I don't think Livermore has been "very good" since he's been here.
Your opinion though so is in no way *disgraceful* just different to mine.
I have been critical of Bartley but, as you'll see from my post, I believe he has improved enough to stay in ahead of Ajayi.
 Livermore is still, however, a weak link.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2019, 08:13:16 PM »
I knew it would eventually come to suggestions of any change to get rid of Livermore, as prompted by Jacko's OP.
Disgraceful.

not "any change to get rid of Livermore" at all, more a few thoughts on how to get the best balanced side out of the squad.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 10:19:20 PM by Albionic »
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2019, 10:16:52 PM »
Jacko mentioned that midfield is a massive problem and that he should have included Sawyers in the thread title. I think it would also be relevant to include Pereira in the debate. I love watching the bloke play, but he is obviously a very attacking No.10 rather than a genuine midfielder. If sides come to the Hawthorns with 3 genuine midfield players and plenty will, then we will be outnumbered in midfield.

Being outnumbered / over-run in midfield is nothing new. It happened more last season when we played with two central midfielders and sometimes Rodriguez and occasionally Barnes in the No.10 / withdrawn striker role.

If we want Pereira getting on the ball a lot in a central position then it gives our overall midfield balance an attacking bias. At least with our current personnel and tactics we usually have the bulk of possession and create a good number of decent chances during a game.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2019, 01:29:58 AM »
In the words of the great 20th century philosopher Spike Milligan "If was going there I wouldn't start from here"  In other words if defensive solidity is a tactical priority you don't hire the players we did in the summer and even if you hire Diangana and Pereira you don't put them on the pitch at the same time and you don't play Sawyers in a double pivot.

Whoever is in the back half of this team is tactically more exposed than any other defensive unit since the Mowbray years. In that context shuffling the personnel might not change a lot.   
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2019, 09:15:40 AM »
with our stats so far its hard to justify not giving Bond a run out in goal for 3 matches.

I'd drop Bartley - permanent accident waiting to happen

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2019, 09:20:22 AM »
As a starting point you need to get Hegazi back into the side and it comes either at the expense of Bartley or Livermore who are the weak links in the side still. Livermore looks better now he can get about the pitch, but he still isn't a defensive midfielder, I am not sure what he is, but he can't pass or tackle. You either play Bartley and Hegazi at the back and put Ajayi into the defensive midfield berth or you slot Hegazi alongside Ajayi.

We are crying out for a natural ball winner in the midfield to break up play and screen the defence who are far too exposed currently.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2019, 09:22:56 AM »
Some comments from an article on Livermore...

"In the recent game against Barnsley, Livermore proved a vital cog in Slaven Bilic’s well-oiled machine that came back from two goals down. The 29-year-old had possession of the ball 7.7% of the time, the third-highest of any player on the pitch. Livermore also contributed defensively making the joint-most blocks and the third-most clearances out of the Baggies side as they rescued a draw (via WhoScored).

Overall this season, the former Hull City man has shown exactly why he is far more valuable than £10m, starting every game in the second-tier. He’s averaged the most tackles of any West Brom player, showing his ability in shielding the back four."

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2019, 09:26:55 AM »
And just checked WhoScored.com, to be fair, Ferguson averages more tackles per match now, 2.4 to 2.1, the next after Livermore is Furlon on 1.8.  Livermore also has the joint most blocks this season with Phillips.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2019, 12:59:08 PM »
The problem is while the individuals are doing OK, they aren't working well as a system. We look too open and are to easy to move the ball through.

Swap Barry, Gibbs, and Hegazi for Livermore, Ferguson, and Bartley and I think we'll look much better.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2019, 01:10:09 PM »
The problem is while the individuals are doing OK, they aren't working well as a system. We look too open and are to easy to move the ball through.

Swap Barry, Gibbs, and Hegazi for Livermore, Ferguson, and Bartley and I think we'll look much better.

I think Sawyers and Livermore are doing a good job tbh.  You've got to remember that we push Phillips, Periera and Diangana on a fair bit so the two of them have an awful lot of ground to cover.  Sawyers tends to hold more letting Livermore support the front players when we get good possession.  If we get turned over quickly then Sawyers has been excellent at covering ground.

Barry just hasn't got the legs to play in there consistantly and he tended to play the deeper Sawyers role more last season.  We'll end up more exposed with Barry in there.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2019, 10:25:22 PM »
You have to accept that if you want to play free-flowing attacking football, you will leave more gaps at the back. You have just 10 outfield players and they can't be everywhere all the time. If you look at the teams which have conceded less goals than us, they have all scored alot less (apart from Preston which have a siimilar stats).

If you really want to tighten up in defence, then the team has to play alot more compact and deep, restrict players making runs forward. Ultimately, you are back to 2 banks of 4 in front of the keeper with certain players not allowed to cross the half way line.  And we're back to watching 1-0's, 0-0s and 0-1s.

Judging by the attendances, its fairly obvious which style of football most people prefer  to watch. And we're still top of the league. 
 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 10:28:30 PM by alex1 »
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2019, 10:42:50 PM »
Sorry but a few have said it now, that it's the sacrifice for decent football.


Just not true.


There is a massive chasm of possibilities between grinding out 1 nil wins and conceding 2 goals every home game. They are not a binary choice.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2019, 11:02:18 PM »
Sorry but a few have said it now, that it's the sacrifice for decent football.


Just not true.


There is a massive chasm of possibilities between grinding out 1 nil wins and conceding 2 goals every home game. They are not a binary choice.


I'm glad you wrote this because it saves me a job.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2019, 11:44:34 PM »
Sorry but a few have said it now, that it's the sacrifice for decent football.

Just not true.

There is a massive chasm of possibilities between grinding out 1 nil wins and conceding 2 goals every home game. They are not a binary choice.

OK Pulisbal (for want of a better phrase  :)), is an extreme example of defensive football, but you can't get away from the fact that gaps are left the more players that make runs forward. Not even super athletes are able to get back every time. It depends on the balance a manager chooses between attacking and defensive players. How many holding midfield players, how many are allowed to get forward into the box and help set up chances. 

The football played by Billic involves full backs getting forward, Ajayi has a certain freedom, and all the midfield can be found around the opposition box when we are attacking. Its ages since the entertainment value at The Hawthorns has been as good as this season, and that's down to Billic, the players he's attracted, and his attacking philosophy. I know it involves risks, and individual errors are maybe fatal, but so what, we're still top of the league, and if we had a more prolific goalscorer, we'd be further ahead.     
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 11:46:43 PM by alex1 »
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2019, 12:16:24 AM »
I’ll be honest I was very critical of Johnstone last season and at the start of this I thought he wasn’t good enough, however he has proved me wrong so far. My issue was how many points he actually won us last season, this season I genuinely believe he has won us at least 4 points so tbh calling for him to be dropped now is downright ridiculous. Bartley I’m not a fan of either and I happen to be one who thinks hegazi is the best centre half in the division on his day however Bartley has started the season well and deserves his place at the moment. Livermore again I think hasn’t lived up to his hype since he has been here however he looks leaner and more athletic this season.

How can fans seriously be questioning the manager when it’s a few days before the start of November and we have lost 1 game all season. What exactly do you want from this club and it’s players???

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2019, 08:08:48 AM »
If anyone thinks that our defence is a problem then we can always get Pulis back.....

For me the fact that we are conceding comes with the territory. I am not sure we can have the football we are currently enjoying and a water tight defence. Pulis wanted athletes who could run back in a second to defend whereas Slaven has gone for the skill factor. Neither goal on Saturday was the fault of the defence, a 'non penalty' and an unfortunate clearance/deflection. I have faith in the team and it is apparent for all to see that, unlike the past few seasons, this means something to them, they are working together and supporting each other.

I really am not sure why we have threads like this, micro analysing certain individuals and blaming them for goals. Its football, it happens......lets just enjoy it. 
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2019, 09:19:38 AM »
If anyone thinks that our defence is a problem then we can always get Pulis back.....

For me the fact that we are conceding comes with the territory. I am not sure we can have the football we are currently enjoying and a water tight defence. Pulis wanted athletes who could run back in a second to defend whereas Slaven has gone for the skill factor. Neither goal on Saturday was the fault of the defence, a 'non penalty' and an unfortunate clearance/deflection. I have faith in the team and it is apparent for all to see that, unlike the past few seasons, this means something to them, they are working together and supporting each other.

I really am not sure why we have threads like this, micro analysing certain individuals and blaming them for goals. Its football, it happens......lets just enjoy it.
Have to agree that the system leaves us vulnerable, this is why all of the back 5 have received plaudits this season, for playing well, when the goals against suggests otherwise. It's a sacrifice worth taking though for he potency it gives at the other end.
That doesn't mean we can't analyse it and look for improvements.
I know a lot of people get upset at the stick that Livermore, Bartley and Johnstone get, and yes, they have all had good spells this season, but, to me, they are all players that we should look to improve upon.
Hegazi will be an immediate improvement and should come back asap.
Ferguson being out will allow us to see if a natural left footer gives us better balance and I would like to see us try an alternative to Livermore in CM, maybe Krov, maybe Ajayi as I'm not convinced it will make us weaker.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2019, 09:29:51 AM »
There is definitely an issue in my opinion but I don’t think it’s a huge one and I don’t think it needs huge changes.

We aren’t getting over run in midfield generally, we are controlling games and are the better side over 90 minutes.  We have spells where we are under pressure and we just need to take a step back and get on the ball in those spells.

We won’t keep letting in two a game, I expect we’ve just been punished more at home than we are likely to be over the course of a season.

Hegazi for Bartley and Gibbs for Ferguson will hopefully see a positive change. I think we should also take 5-10 minutes sitting a little deeper as an entire team when under pressure until we can take the sting out and get back on the front foot.

It’s disappointing because we could and probably should be in a far more dominant position.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2019, 10:06:38 AM »
I am by no means a Livermore fan but if we have midfield defensive failings as I consider we have, then I attribute them much more to Sawyer than to Livermore.  The latter does at least get some ball winning tackles in albeit not frequently enough for my liking whereas Sawyer very rarely wins a straight-forward 50:50 tackle let alone one when the opposition is actually in possession of the ball.   

The first question is does Sawyer's contribution to our attacking game more than make up for his perceived defensive failings.   I do not think the answer is an unqualified yes so the next question is who can replace him to provide the additional defensive requirements but can also make a comparable contribution to our attacking game.   Unfortunately I do not think we have anyone who could fill that role - we all know we have lacked a decent box-to-box midfielder for years - so it seems to me we either stay with the Livermore/Sawyer combination and rely on our attacking players to consistently score sufficient goals to make up for our defensive failings or change our formation to a more defensive set-up.

On balance I think we are best served to stay pretty much with what we have but look seriously in January to bringing in a really good all-round midfielder or get that striker who would score those extra goals which would almost certainly lead to a reduction in the pressure on our defense.




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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2019, 10:57:34 AM »
What a bizarre post, I can't believe anyone who watches us regularly can so epically fail to see what Sawyers brings to this side.  Staggering.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2019, 12:24:57 PM »
I've really enjoyed the analysis and debate on this thread - the forum at its best.

As others have mentioned, we play quite an attacking style that leaves the defensive unit exposed: full backs get forward, wide players stay quite high and press high and our number 10 also stays and presses high. At times our defensive unit numerically is a 5. We still however can and should be conceding less goals, especially the way in which control most games.

A weakness defensively is Sawyers. I think (without going back over the goals conceded to analyse) that runners run off the back of him too easily and also that he is often dragged wide (as our wide players play high) when he would be better served protecting the centre of the pitch. Sawyers is however the heartbeat of this side and the key cog and what he brings to is in terms of passing ability, dictating the tempo and playmaking is worth his defensive deficiencies in my view, which of course can be worked on. A good way to counter this would be to field an outstanding ball winning midfielder alongside him. Livermore is having a good season but is not an outstanding ball winner. If we compare him to other midfielders in other possession based teams, you can see from the tackles per game (source: whoscored.com) where he lies:

WBA = Livermore 2.1
Fulham = Arter 2.6/ Reed 1.4
Leeds = Phillips 4.1 
QPR = Cameron 1.3/Scowen 2.4

Livermore makes a good amount of tackles per game but like I said, is not outstanding like say a Kalvin Phillips and getting an outstanding ball winner would help us for sure. I think Livermore is good at our level but should we go up, we would need upgrading.

As others have mentioned, whilst Bartley is having a good season, I think replacing him with a better ball playing centre back, which Hegazi is, could also help cut out a couple of goals against but that is without any science. Bartley has better passing stats than Ajayi this year in terms of pass completion and being dispossessed but as we all know, Ajayi strides forward and also looks to play more progressive balls forward than Bartley, again no statistical evidence to back this up though.

I also agree with the points that it could also be a mentality thing and also the way in which the opposition approach us. Whilst we are conceding too many goals, I don't feel overly concerned, especially as we are scoring them too.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2019, 12:38:29 PM »
so boiled down, do we want 4-3 or 1-0 ?

The latter for me.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2019, 02:29:22 PM »
As Pulis proved it's easy to win 1-0 by way of corners until you're sussed.  What's exciting about this team is the opposition doesn't know where danger is coming from.

Sawyers is not a great defensive player but his ability to turn with the ball and shield it stands out from last season when the midfielders couldn't get rid of it quickly enough.  Usually their haste gave the ball away and continually put the pressure back on the defence.   Sawyers's pass completion might not look the best but he is making more ambitious, forward passes.. 

Bartley would be OK at right-sided CB but Hegazi should be brought in at left CB  but when he's ready.  We don't know his condition: he may be rusty or even still moving gingerly on his operated ankle.  When he can return then I suppose Slav could move Bartley right one position and try Ajayi as defensive midfielder.

Myself I would discard Austin ( Lambert mark 2) and Zohore and put Phillips at centre forward.  This would enable us to field 2 nippy and tricky wingers  (Edwards and Diangana).

We need to have the adaptability to switch between systems during a match (e.g. 4-3-3 when swamped and then 4-2-3-1 when the pressing  tires.)

Whatever happens, I think it's an improvement on last season when I felt that if we went a goal down in the second half there would be no way back with our limited capability and tactics up front.
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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2019, 02:47:58 PM »
As Pulis proved it's easy to win 1-0 by way of corners until you're sussed.  What's exciting about this team is the opposition doesn't know where danger is coming from.

Sawyers is not a great defensive player but his ability to turn with the ball and shield it stands out from last season when the midfielders couldn't get rid of it quickly enough.  Usually their haste gave the ball away and continually put the pressure back on the defence.   Sawyers's pass completion might not look the best but he is making more ambitious, forward passes.. 

Bartley would be OK at right-sided CB but Hegazi should be brought in at left CB  but when he's ready.  We don't know his condition: he may be rusty or even still moving gingerly on his operated ankle.  When he can return then I suppose Slav could move Bartley right one position and try Ajayi as defensive midfielder.

Myself I would discard Austin ( Lambert mark 2) and Zohore and put Phillips at centre forward.  This would enable us to field 2 nippy and tricky wingers  (Edwards and Diangana).

We need to have the adaptability to switch between systems during a match (e.g. 4-3-3 when swamped and then 4-2-3-1 when the pressing  tires.)

Whatever happens, I think it's an improvement on last season when I felt that if we went a goal down in the second half there would be no way back with our limited capability and tactics up front.


Saw him last night he's absolutely fine. He was a bit rusty with a couple of passes first half, which you'd expect after a lay off but other than that he was absolutely faultless. One thing both he and Ajayi give you is an ability to defend one on one which Hegazi demonstrated more than once last night. He's a rolls royce and whilst I admire to an extent Slaven's loyalty to his players, Hegazi simply has to partner Ajayi at the back.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2019, 02:51:43 PM »
When he can return then I suppose Slav could move Bartley right one position and try Ajayi as defensive midfielder.


This. This is what I think our approach should be.
Livermore has been fine this season, but I still think as a player he is limited.

I'd want to see Bartley and Hegazi paired at centre-back, with Romaine and Ajayi in front of them.
Our wing-backs can cycle through whomever suits the opposition at the time.

Johnstone is absolutely fine, better than fine. One of the better 'keepers in the league as far as I'm concerned.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2019, 03:02:11 PM »
Lads there is no way Ajayi is going to move into midfield and rightly so. I do wish people would get that idea out of their heads. The way we play we are reliant on his pace at the back. Ajayi was brought into the club to play centre back and that's where he will stay.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2019, 03:03:19 PM »

I'd want to see Bartley and Hegazi paired at centre-back, with Romaine and Ajayi in front of them.


Whilst I have called for a ball winning upgrade on Livermore at some stage, I wouldn't be moving Ajayi into midfield. His pace allows us to play high up the field and with his ability on the ball and how adept he is at carrying the ball, he is every inch the modern day centre back with huge upside back there. Although in his mid-twenties, he hasn't played many full seasons, if any, solely as a centre back and I think he will get better and better.

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Re: Johnstone, the back four and Livermore. A bigger problem than it seems?
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2019, 11:04:25 PM »
What a bizarre post, I can't believe anyone who watches us regularly can so epically fail to see what Sawyers brings to this side.  Staggering.

He's a class act, if he had been here last season we would have gone up without question, the centre of the pitch was a big problem last season, its been addressed this and now we're just lacking that goalscorer.
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