Author Topic: Alan Irvine  (Read 1745900 times)

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timdon

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3725 on: November 11, 2014, 03:42:19 PM »
The problem for me is that the football from us is mind numbingly boring to watch. I am an Albion fan. I don't expect to win every week. But I do like to be entertained and on Sunday there wasn't one single moment of excitement where we even looked remotely like scoring, or a single fast break which got me out of my seat. We were so narrow, so slow, it was easy for a very average side to play us off the park, and it made me very annoyed. But I guess this is all we can expect from AI. He moans about lack of width and lack of intensity, as we all do, the difference being that it is in his power to do something about it but he won't because he believes that this dross is the way to get results. Unfortunately he has been proved right in this respect a few times this season because the luck has gone our way and this will only cement his belief, but the luck will run out and then we are in trouble. I really don't want to see us relegated but I believe we are in deep trouble despite our current position and  I'm not at all convinced that there are 3 teams worse than us.

Quakes Fan

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3726 on: November 11, 2014, 04:07:59 PM »
The problem for me is that the football from us is mind numbingly boring to watch. I am an Albion fan. I don't expect to win every week. But I do like to be entertained and on Sunday there wasn't one single moment of excitement where we even looked remotely like scoring, or a single fast break which got me out of my seat. We were so narrow, so slow, it was easy for a very average side to play us off the park, and it made me very annoyed. But I guess this is all we can expect from AI. He moans about lack of width and lack of intensity, as we all do, the difference being that it is in his power to do something about it but he won't because he believes that this dross is the way to get results. Unfortunately he has been proved right in this respect a few times this season because the luck has gone our way and this will only cement his belief, but the luck will run out and then we are in trouble. I really don't want to see us relegated but I believe we are in deep trouble despite our current position and  I'm not at all convinced that there are 3 teams worse than us.

It defies logic that wins are due to luck and losses aren't.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3727 on: November 11, 2014, 04:36:28 PM »
It defies logic that wins are due to luck and losses aren't.

There is nothing logical about chance/chaos. It is the element of unpredictability that allows for lesser teams to sometimes win against better teams. The reason the teams have formed into a league to play a set number of games is to determine which team is the best one over time. The time factor eliminates luck and chance and balances more towards skill over... time.

Leicester scored an own goal in our favour (lucky bounce). Newcastle scored an outrageous back heel against us (combination luck/skill as he won't score many goals like that in his career). This was unlucky for us and once we are behind we will always struggle to come back.

West Brom have conceded at least twice in their last seven Premier League home defeats.

The Baggies have not won any of the last 24 Premier League home games that they have conceded a goal in.


That last one is a rather shocking stat isn't it. Score a goal against us at home and we simply don't win the game. Also we are leaking goals at home.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3728 on: November 11, 2014, 05:38:44 PM »
Our home form has not been the best for some time now. I think Steve Clarke got the balance right early in his reign when we were winning games at home while playing good football.
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3729 on: November 11, 2014, 07:24:00 PM »
That last stat is truely shocking.

Quakes Fan

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3730 on: November 11, 2014, 07:48:34 PM »
There is nothing logical about chance/chaos. It is the element of unpredictability that allows for lesser teams to sometimes win against better teams. The reason the teams have formed into a league to play a set number of games is to determine which team is the best one over time. The time factor eliminates luck and chance and balances more towards skill over... time.

Leicester scored an own goal in our favour (lucky bounce). Newcastle scored an outrageous back heel against us (combination luck/skill as he won't score many goals like that in his career). This was unlucky for us and once we are behind we will always struggle to come back.

I think that's far from a thorough examination of all possible "luck" in all our games. Are we still blaming Irvine for the Everton goals?


West Brom have conceded at least twice in their last seven Premier League home defeats.

Which means only that the score hasn't been 0-1 in any of those seven games. I don't find that meaningful.


The Baggies have not won any of the last 24 Premier League home games that they have conceded a goal in.

That last one is a rather shocking stat isn't it. Score a goal against us at home and we simply don't win the game. Also we are leaking goals at home.

Ah yes, the "home games in which a goal was conceded" table. Here's last year with only our bottom-half rivals (I didn't feel it was worth my time to find out that Manchester City did better at home than us):

                 W  D  L    PPG
Villa            4  1 10   0.867
Cardiff          3  3  9   0.800
Crystal Palace   2  2  8   0.667
Albion           0  9  6   0.600
West Ham         2  1  9   0.583
Norwich          1  3  7   0.545
Swansea          1  4  8   0.538
Hull             1  2  8   0.455
Fulham           1  3 11   0.400
Sunderland       1  1 11   0.308


That 0 in our win column is shocking? No more so than the 6 in our loss column. It's an example of an obscure statistic taken out of context. We did better than most comparable clubs in home games in which we conceded a goal.

All this reminds me of this post. I really think you should examine these factoids before you attach much significance to them.

timdon

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3731 on: November 11, 2014, 07:57:23 PM »
I think that's far from a thorough examination of all possible "luck" in all our games. Are we still blaming Irvine for the Everton goals?


Which means only that the score hasn't been 0-1 in any of those seven games. I don't find that meaningful.


Ah yes, the "home games in which a goal was conceded" table. Here's last year with only our bottom-half rivals (I didn't feel it was worth my time to find out that Manchester City did better at home than us):

                 W  D  L    PPG
Villa            4  1 10   0.867
Cardiff          3  3  9   0.800
Crystal Palace   2  2  8   0.667
Albion           0  9  6   0.600
West Ham         2  1  9   0.583
Norwich          1  3  7   0.545
Swansea          1  4  8   0.538
Hull             1  2  8   0.455
Fulham           1  3 11   0.400
Sunderland       1  1 11   0.308


That 0 in our win column is shocking? No more so than the 6 in our loss column. It's an example of an obscure statistic taken out of context. We did better than most comparable clubs in home games in which we conceded a goal.

All this reminds me of this post. I really think you should examine these factoids before you attach much significance to them.
So what you seem to be suggesting is that we are doing fine really, all things considered, yes?

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3732 on: November 11, 2014, 08:04:36 PM »
So what you seem to be suggesting is that we are doing fine really, all things considered, yes?

Not fine. I'd like it to get better. I don't think we are playing substantially better than a relegation-zone club. I just have a problem with attributing wins to luck and losses to Alan Irvine.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3733 on: November 11, 2014, 08:10:36 PM »
Out of those teams Cardiff, Norwich and Fulham are no longer in the Prem. That's three team out of ten. Then we have a couple that clearly are doing ok this year West Ham and Swansea and apart from that we are left with the borderline scrap like us, Villa and Sunderland. Also every single one of the teams in that list won more home games than we did last year (4). We won 3 games away. There clearly is room for a lot of improvement.

The previous season we won 9 games at home (and finished 8th despite our appalling run of form that continues to this day starting that winter), mostly due to our fantastic start to the season I guess.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3734 on: November 11, 2014, 08:15:46 PM »
From what i have seen so far this season i have come up with the following conclusions about AI:

The players look fitter than they have for a while,
we can pass and keep  the ball better ( across the park most of the time),
Our defense looks better, but it had to with proper full backs in it.
We have no width at all in our play.
We may as well have a empty bench the use it is with our substitutions during the game.
We have a game plan and if it isn't working we don't have the ability to change it.

Marks out of 10 for him so far = 6

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timdon

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3735 on: November 11, 2014, 08:18:24 PM »
Not fine. I'd like it to get better. I don't think we are playing substantially better than a relegation-zone club. I just have a problem with attributing wins to luck and losses to Alan Irvine.
I suppose the point is that luck (as any poker player will tell you) isn't consistent in the way it works. Overall this season I think we have had more than our fair share of luck and this will balance out at some point. When this happens we are in the poo. I don't just blame AI, I think he is only a small part of the overall problem with the club, but he is responsible for picking the side, preparing the side, motivating the side, and setting up how the side plays, so I don't think it is surprising that people have a pop when we are served up the garbage we had to endure on Sunday.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3736 on: November 11, 2014, 08:25:39 PM »
I would take any bit of luck that goes our way against Chelski. ;)
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3737 on: November 11, 2014, 08:39:39 PM »
Really get the feeling this will be a season similar to Hodgsons, aka some excellent performances on the road, but pretty dismal at home!

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3738 on: November 11, 2014, 09:55:12 PM »
Really get the feeling this will be a season similar to Hodgsons, aka some excellent performances on the road, but pretty dismal at home!

I'll have two pints of what you've just had please  ;D

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3739 on: November 12, 2014, 12:01:27 AM »
I'm a ST holder and I haven't seen us win a home game live since we beat West Ham last April (I declined to travel down from the north west for our demolition of championship standard Burnley). The weekend was a shambles and our home form for the past 15 months has been and is shocking. We stink of a relegation team. The only question for me is will we be in the bottom three or bottom six.

The following sides are nailed on to finish above us: Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Utd, Everton, Spurs, Southampton, Stoke, West Ham, Swansea, Liverpool, Newcastle.

We will finish above Burnley.

That leaves two of us, Sunderland, Hull, Villa, Palace, Leicester and QPR to be relegated which mathematically lives us with at least a 28.57% chance of relegation. QPR Have an expensive team and Redknapp will spend in January if needs be, they are already improving after a terrible start. Villa always seem to sqeak home. Taking just two teams out off the above list increasing our relegation odds to 40%!

Disturbingly we have already played Burnley, Sunderland & Palace at home but could only muster 4/9 pts.

It's no good Irvine bemoaning a lack of drive or intensity when he fills the bench with defensive players. Clarke who gets far too much stick on here always has plenty of attacking options on the bench, as you would expect as it's common sense!

Interesting to see Idaye Brown defending himself as we'll - the longer he is out of the team the lower his confidence will sink.

Also is any other fan sick and tired of professional employees missing the bleeding obvious?

I.e. Statistically we never win without Sess, I don't think we've won a single game he hasn't started since he signed? Secondly Anichebe always contributes from the bench nut is terrible when started from the off. Faced with those two FACTS our highly paid head coach and assistants start with Anichebe and then subb Sess and put him on the wing late on when we all know he needs to be running at the back four in the hole.

It's all so frustrating I could scream - and to think its only November. How many more clueless decisions are we to endure? Plenty I suspect.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3740 on: November 12, 2014, 08:19:53 AM »
I'm a ST holder and I haven't seen us win a home game live since we beat West Ham last April (I declined to travel down from the north west for our demolition of championship standard Burnley). The weekend was a shambles and our home form for the past 15 months has been and is shocking. We stink of a relegation team. The only question for me is will we be in the bottom three or bottom six.

The following sides are nailed on to finish above us: Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Utd, Everton, Spurs, Southampton, Stoke, West Ham, Swansea, Liverpool, Newcastle.

We will finish above Burnley.

That leaves two of us, Sunderland, Hull, Villa, Palace, Leicester and QPR to be relegated which mathematically lives us with at least a 28.57% chance of relegation. QPR Have an expensive team and Redknapp will spend in January if needs be, they are already improving after a terrible start. Villa always seem to sqeak home. Taking just two teams out off the above list increasing our relegation odds to 40%!

Disturbingly we have already played Burnley, Sunderland & Palace at home but could only muster 4/9 pts.

It's no good Irvine bemoaning a lack of drive or intensity when he fills the bench with defensive players. Clarke who gets far too much stick on here always has plenty of attacking options on the bench, as you would expect as it's common sense!

Interesting to see Idaye Brown defending himself as we'll - the longer he is out of the team the lower his confidence will sink.

Also is any other fan sick and tired of professional employees missing the bleeding obvious?

I.e. Statistically we never win without Sess, I don't think we've won a single game he hasn't started since he signed? Secondly Anichebe always contributes from the bench nut is terrible when started from the off. Faced with those two FACTS our highly paid head coach and assistants start with Anichebe and then subb Sess and put him on the wing late on when we all know he needs to be running at the back four in the hole.

It's all so frustrating I could scream - and to think its only November. How many more clueless decisions are we to endure? Plenty I suspect.

Great post mate, spot on! Does anyone know if Lepkowski & Swain read the comments on this forum?

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3741 on: November 12, 2014, 08:57:10 AM »
I'm a ST holder and I haven't seen us win a home game live since we beat West Ham last April (I declined to travel down from the north west for our demolition of championship standard Burnley). The weekend was a shambles and our home form for the past 15 months has been and is shocking. We stink of a relegation team. The only question for me is will we be in the bottom three or bottom six.

The following sides are nailed on to finish above us: Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Utd, Everton, Spurs, Southampton, Stoke, West Ham, Swansea, Liverpool, Newcastle.

We will finish above Burnley.

That leaves two of us, Sunderland, Hull, Villa, Palace, Leicester and QPR to be relegated which mathematically lives us with at least a 28.57% chance of relegation. QPR Have an expensive team and Redknapp will spend in January if needs be, they are already improving after a terrible start. Villa always seem to sqeak home. Taking just two teams out off the above list increasing our relegation odds to 40%!

Disturbingly we have already played Burnley, Sunderland & Palace at home but could only muster 4/9 pts.

It's no good Irvine bemoaning a lack of drive or intensity when he fills the bench with defensive players. Clarke who gets far too much stick on here always has plenty of attacking options on the bench, as you would expect as it's common sense!

Interesting to see Idaye Brown defending himself as we'll - the longer he is out of the team the lower his confidence will sink.

Also is any other fan sick and tired of professional employees missing the bleeding obvious?

I.e. Statistically we never win without Sess, I don't think we've won a single game he hasn't started since he signed? Secondly Anichebe always contributes from the bench nut is terrible when started from the off. Faced with those two FACTS our highly paid head coach and assistants start with Anichebe and then subb Sess and put him on the wing late on when we all know he needs to be running at the back four in the hole.

It's all so frustrating I could scream - and to think its only November. How many more clueless decisions are we to endure? Plenty I suspect.



Same here i have not seen us win since West Ham. If home performances dont improve like i said yesterday i will go to most away games instead and sell my home seat for selective games. I am not coming away feeling deflated and depressed about how we are playing for much longer
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 09:12:49 AM by WBAinDEVON »
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3742 on: November 12, 2014, 09:02:15 AM »
From what i have seen so far this season i have come up with the following conclusions about AI:

The players look fitter than they have for a while,
we can pass and keep  the ball better ( across the park most of the time),
Our defense looks better, but it had to with proper full backs in it.
We have no width at all in our play.
We may as well have a empty bench the use it is with our substitutions during the game.
We have a game plan and if it isn't working we don't have the ability to change it.

Marks out of 10 for him so far = 6

This exactly mirrors my feelings on Irvine, the net effect of the lack of substitutions is problems like Mulumbu and Brown being off the pace and lacking in confidence.
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3743 on: November 12, 2014, 09:04:31 AM »


Same here i have not seen us win since West Ham. If home performances dont improve like i said yesterday i will go to most away games instead and sell my home seat. I am not coming away feeling deflated and depressed about how we are playing for much longer

One of the advantages of moving to Essex is that I don't bother with home games anymore, much rather go away. If we don't win, then I can just drink my self into a happy state  ;D
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crazedwbafan18

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3744 on: November 12, 2014, 09:18:32 AM »
I'm a ST holder and I haven't seen us win a home game live since we beat West Ham last April (I declined to travel down from the north west for our demolition of championship standard Burnley). The weekend was a shambles and our home form for the past 15 months has been and is shocking. We stink of a relegation team. The only question for me is will we be in the bottom three or bottom six.

The following sides are nailed on to finish above us: Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Utd, Everton, Spurs, Southampton, Stoke, West Ham, Swansea, Liverpool, Newcastle.

We will finish above Burnley.

That leaves two of us, Sunderland, Hull, Villa, Palace, Leicester and QPR to be relegated which mathematically lives us with at least a 28.57% chance of relegation. QPR Have an expensive team and Redknapp will spend in January if needs be, they are already improving after a terrible start. Villa always seem to sqeak home. Taking just two teams out off the above list increasing our relegation odds to 40%!

Disturbingly we have already played Burnley, Sunderland & Palace at home but could only muster 4/9 pts.

It's no good Irvine bemoaning a lack of drive or intensity when he fills the bench with defensive players. Clarke who gets far too much stick on here always has plenty of attacking options on the bench, as you would expect as it's common sense!

Interesting to see Idaye Brown defending himself as we'll - the longer he is out of the team the lower his confidence will sink.

Also is any other fan sick and tired of professional employees missing the bleeding obvious?

I.e. Statistically we never win without Sess, I don't think we've won a single game he hasn't started since he signed? Secondly Anichebe always contributes from the bench nut is terrible when started from the off. Faced with those two FACTS our highly paid head coach and assistants start with Anichebe and then subb Sess and put him on the wing late on when we all know he needs to be running at the back four in the hole.

It's all so frustrating I could scream - and to think its only November. How many more clueless decisions are we to endure? Plenty I suspect.

Pretty much how most of us feel deep down, so disappointing, 9/10 times i come away from the hawthorns down in the dumps, something needs to change.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3745 on: November 12, 2014, 09:20:30 AM »
I'll have two pints of what you've just had please  ;D
It's more to do with less pressure and expectancy, we tend to be more solid away from home and this is why i can see us doing better on the road this year.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3746 on: November 12, 2014, 10:19:21 AM »
I think Irvine will be a disaster.  The only thing that can save him is good players, but there doesn't seem to be much action there at the moment.  I'm not on his case, I just have an opinion.

*Apparently* we used to break the season down into blocks of 10 games to enable us to judge performance.  This season I would say lets take the 1st 11 games.  (There's a couple of difficult ones after that, so I'm being kind.)  There's 7 peer teams in there, plus 2 we should be aspiring to compete with and 2 we wont be competing with.  So after 11 games I would like 15 points.  We will need to be around that level for the 1st 3rd (ish) of the season judging from our run in. 
- Anything less than 11 is abject failure. 
- Between 11 and 15, you make a judgement call on whether things are improving or going downwards. 
- 15 or more than you're on course or better.

11 games take us up to early November.  Make a decision then.  If we need to replace Irvine we can do our due dithering and get someone in before Christmas...

13 points from 11 games.  Much better than I expected.  Some positives.  Some negatives.

Positives
We're a lot more organised.  Lescott looks effective (in fact I was feeling positive about the back 4 for a while, but conceding 2 at home every game isn't going to work).  Berahino - I wasn't expecting his start to the season - let's hope he stays focussed.  13 points.

Negatives
('1st choice' defenders excepted) the new signings have failed to have any impact after 3 months (maybe a symptom of signing so late in the window).  Ideye, Samaras, Davidson, Gamboa, Baird have had no impact.  Varela - the same, but maybe injury has stopped him (maybe wishful thinking).  Blanco has looked decent in the cup games I've seen... but didn't make the bench on Saturday, when we desperately needed someone to change the game.  Gardner - I think he flatters to deceive - he runs around and is very busy, but to very little effect - the new Andy Johnson.  The midfield on Saturday was the same that played for most of the last promotion season, 5 years ago - where is the progression?  Without Berahino's goals where would we be?  What has happened to the pillars on which our team was built - Mulumbu, Yacob, McCauley and Olsson?

I have very mixed feelings still.  I'm a long way for calling for Irvine to go, but I think he has to demonstrate that he can build an attacking element into the team, and we really need to improve the home team before I'll properly want to get behind him.  We are workman like and predictable.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3747 on: November 12, 2014, 10:42:40 AM »
13 points from 11 games.  Much better than I expected.  Some positives.  Some negatives.

Positives
We're a lot more organised.  Lescott looks effective (in fact I was feeling positive about the back 4 for a while, but conceding 2 at home every game isn't going to work).  Berahino - I wasn't expecting his start to the season - let's hope he stays focussed.  13 points.

Negatives
('1st choice' defenders excepted) the new signings have failed to have any impact after 3 months (maybe a symptom of signing so late in the window).  Ideye, Samaras, Davidson, Gamboa, Baird have had no impact.  Varela - the same, but maybe injury has stopped him (maybe wishful thinking).  Blanco has looked decent in the cup games I've seen... but didn't make the bench on Saturday, when we desperately needed someone to change the game.  Gardner - I think he flatters to deceive - he runs around and is very busy, but to very little effect - the new Andy Johnson.  The midfield on Saturday was the same that played for most of the last promotion season, 5 years ago - where is the progression?  Without Berahino's goals where would we be?  What has happened to the pillars on which our team was built - Mulumbu, Yacob, McCauley and Olsson?

I have very mixed feelings still.  I'm a long way for calling for Irvine to go, but I think he has to demonstrate that he can build an attacking element into the team, and we really need to improve the home team before I'll properly want to get behind him.  We are workman like and predictable.
good post but who really expected baird and samaras to have an impact,2 very poor additions in my eye.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3748 on: November 12, 2014, 10:47:42 AM »
good post but who really expected baird and samaras to have an impact,2 very poor additions in my eye.

I didn't, and it speaks volumes that Baird and Samaras were selected for the bench ahead of Ideye and Blanco...

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #3749 on: November 12, 2014, 10:51:20 AM »
I didn't, and it speaks volumes that Baird and Samaras were selected for the bench ahead of Ideye and Blanco...

Can't quite get my head around having both Baird and Yacob on the bench. Baird is taking up a space for a more creative player
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