Author Topic: Alan Irvine  (Read 1234783 times)

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Albion79

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2725 on: September 16, 2014, 02:17:43 PM »
Have to say i think Irvine is on a hiding to nothing but i think we need to get some perspective.

I dont know of one person who wanted him as coach (i didnt want him either) and i still dont think he is the right person for the job but he has to be given some time to prove himself, not 4 league games and a cup match! (Which by hook or by crook we won)

Whoever came in was going to have a massive job, the last 18 months upto this summer had been drab, there appeared to be a culture and mentality within the club and with the players we got rid of it was a chance for a fresh start.

A fresh start doesnt happen overnight, i know he is getting a lot of stick for new players not playing but none of us know their fitness levels, we dont work with them everyday so its to easy to say throw them in. Players who were signed preseason (Wisdom, Poco, Baird, Gardner) have all featured reguarly so it shows he isnt tied into some having to pick the existing players that were there and they rule the roost. Lescott played Pre-season and got injured, thats not Irvines fault.

For those saying chuck them in, Samaras and Davidson as far as i know are the only ones who played since May when they played at tge World Cup, even then they were out by end of June and clubless til middle of August so they could of done training on their own but its not the same as a preseason. Blanco  and Varela i dont think had any real preseason so they are playing catchup and if an example is needed, Ideye (who came in a bit before Samaras, Davidson, Blanco and Varela) and did do some training still looks yards off the pace and the other lads are even further behind him!

It is frustrating as we all want to see the best players we have but these blokes havent played in the premiership before (which is widely acknowledged as completely different to anywhere else in terms of pace and stamina) and worst thing is to chuck them in when they arent fit and they get injured after an hour and out for weeks, Morrison Saturday had gone by the hour and they game bypassed him. I only play Sunday league level nowadays but was lucky enough to play at a good standard and the higher you go, fitness and sharpness becomes even more crucial, even now if i have a few weeks off over Xmas next game back i am struggling.

Basically you would hope if Irvine had the new signings available they would play, i am sure he wants to win games as much as anyone. I would hope that the new signings would maybe play another closed doors game this week and then be ready for Sunday, Spurs last season spent over £100m on new signings and they never really gelled, Liverpool this season have lost 2 of their first 4, Man United were poor there first few games, but given time they will come good, although they have better players than us, the same thing applies - it dont happen overnight.

What we have seen so far Irvine hasnt given us a great deal to get excited about, however he is still having to play 75% of last seasons squad who have been in poor form for 18 months and probably very low on confidence, we have a lot of new players to come in who can freshen it up and so lets judge then. I think he has made mistakes, the first 2 x games were positive, but since then we have got worse, however the best coach in the world cannot do much if people make individual errors like we have done, what he can do when he has the players available is replace those who make the errors.

As i say i dont expect Irvine to succeed,  i think even if we won the next 4, the next defeat people will be straight back onto him because he is Alan Irvine and he isnt an exciting name, Pepe Mel was worshipped by some yet he had 20 odd games in charge i think and i would say out of those we were decent in about 5 maximum,  Irvine has been decent in 2 out of 5, so maybe he does deserve a bit more time.

Whoever came in had a massive job and i think would of struggled, yet the atmosphere at the game Saturday was poisonous, thats where we as fans need to look at ourselves in my opinion, i have always said if a player does something stupid like punching someone, boo him, if the players arent trying (which it looked as though they didnt lots of times last season) let them know, boo them, but when they are trying and just either a) not good enough or b) make mistakes (which we all do) whats the point? We all groan or moan if somebody does something wrong but the prolonged booing, jeering, etc is pathetic and on Saturday you could sense it before the game and it set the tone. The players have to give something for us to cheer about, but although Swansea was a shocker, the 2 x league games prior to that against Sunderland and Southampton i think the players had gave enough that they at least deserved support against Everton rather than the booing and jeering that took place.

TheJacko2000

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2726 on: September 16, 2014, 02:32:02 PM »
The scales have tipped too far with the supporters. I cannot see him turning them around, he needs two wins minimum from the next 4 games. If we fail to beat Burnley there will be no return. That said I didn't think the atmosphere was as bad Saturday as some are making out, it was just very flat. If anything it was far worse in the Oxford game.
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VVVAlbion

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2727 on: September 16, 2014, 02:34:07 PM »
Have to say i think Irvine is on a hiding to nothing but i think we need to get some perspective.

I dont know of one person who wanted him as coach (i didnt want him either) and i still dont think he is the right person for the job but he has to be given some time to prove himself, not 4 league games and a cup match! (Which by hook or by crook we won)

Whoever came in was going to have a massive job, the last 18 months upto this summer had been drab, there appeared to be a culture and mentality within the club and with the players we got rid of it was a chance for a fresh start.

A fresh start doesnt happen overnight, i know he is getting a lot of stick for new players not playing but none of us know their fitness levels, we dont work with them everyday so its to easy to say throw them in. Players who were signed preseason (Wisdom, Poco, Baird, Gardner) have all featured reguarly so it shows he isnt tied into some having to pick the existing players that were there and they rule the roost. Lescott played Pre-season and got injured, thats not Irvines fault.

For those saying chuck them in, Samaras and Davidson as far as i know are the only ones who played since May when they played at tge World Cup, even then they were out by end of June and clubless til middle of August so they could of done training on their own but its not the same as a preseason. Blanco  and Varela i dont think had any real preseason so they are playing catchup and if an example is needed, Ideye (who came in a bit before Samaras, Davidson, Blanco and Varela) and did do some training still looks yards off the pace and the other lads are even further behind him!

It is frustrating as we all want to see the best players we have but these blokes havent played in the premiership before (which is widely acknowledged as completely different to anywhere else in terms of pace and stamina) and worst thing is to chuck them in when they arent fit and they get injured after an hour and out for weeks, Morrison Saturday had gone by the hour and they game bypassed him. I only play Sunday league level nowadays but was lucky enough to play at a good standard and the higher you go, fitness and sharpness becomes even more crucial, even now if i have a few weeks off over Xmas next game back i am struggling.

Basically you would hope if Irvine had the new signings available they would play, i am sure he wants to win games as much as anyone. I would hope that the new signings would maybe play another closed doors game this week and then be ready for Sunday, Spurs last season spent over £100m on new signings and they never really gelled, Liverpool this season have lost 2 of their first 4, Man United were poor there first few games, but given time they will come good, although they have better players than us, the same thing applies - it dont happen overnight.

What we have seen so far Irvine hasnt given us a great deal to get excited about, however he is still having to play 75% of last seasons squad who have been in poor form for 18 months and probably very low on confidence, we have a lot of new players to come in who can freshen it up and so lets judge then. I think he has made mistakes, the first 2 x games were positive, but since then we have got worse, however the best coach in the world cannot do much if people make individual errors like we have done, what he can do when he has the players available is replace those who make the errors.

As i say i dont expect Irvine to succeed,  i think even if we won the next 4, the next defeat people will be straight back onto him because he is Alan Irvine and he isnt an exciting name, Pepe Mel was worshipped by some yet he had 20 odd games in charge i think and i would say out of those we were decent in about 5 maximum,  Irvine has been decent in 2 out of 5, so maybe he does deserve a bit more time.

Whoever came in had a massive job and i think would of struggled, yet the atmosphere at the game Saturday was poisonous, thats where we as fans need to look at ourselves in my opinion, i have always said if a player does something stupid like punching someone, boo him, if the players arent trying (which it looked as though they didnt lots of times last season) let them know, boo them, but when they are trying and just either a) not good enough or b) make mistakes (which we all do) whats the point? We all groan or moan if somebody does something wrong but the prolonged booing, jeering, etc is pathetic and on Saturday you could sense it before the game and it set the tone. The players have to give something for us to cheer about, but although Swansea was a shocker, the 2 x league games prior to that against Sunderland and Southampton i think the players had gave enough that they at least deserved support against Everton rather than the booing and jeering that took place.
A well thought out and articulated post but agree that you are wasting your time. Rationality is something that is rare in some fans and Irvine will never be accepted now no matter what is achieved. His next loss will be expected to be his last one no matter when it is or who it is against.  We currently have fans wanting him to lose.
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2728 on: September 16, 2014, 02:36:06 PM »
The scales have tipped too far with the supporters. I cannot see him turning them around, he needs two wins minimum from the next 4 games. If we fail to beat Burnley there will be no return. That said I didn't think the atmosphere was as bad Saturday as some are making out, it was just very flat. If anything it was far worse in the Oxford game.
Four league matches. Finely balanced scales.

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TheJacko2000

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2729 on: September 16, 2014, 02:55:38 PM »
Four league matches. Finely balanced scales.

No signs of fight, decent football, attacking focus, tactical nous and 4 games to come 3 of which we would normally expect to get very little from and another the fans will accept nothing less than 3 points. Then it becomes 8 league games, add that to the cup debacle (performance wise) and a possible exit from the competition next Wednesday and suddenly it doesn't look so knee jerk.

Fair play to you mate for fighting your corner and sticking to your principles but I have to ask you why you think the man deserves us to give him time, how has he earned the prestigious office he finds himself holding, because nobody seems to know. The best scenario is to get him out of the club asap, because he is doomed to fail. Ask Alex McLeish, or Hodgson at Liverpool (managers with much better track records); if the fans don't want you, you won't succeed.
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2730 on: September 16, 2014, 03:18:39 PM »
No signs of fight, decent football, attacking focus, tactical nous and 4 games to come 3 of which we would normally expect to get very little from and another the fans will accept nothing less than 3 points. Then it becomes 8 league games, add that to the cup debacle (performance wise) and a possible exit from the competition next Wednesday and suddenly it doesn't look so knee jerk.

Fair play to you mate for fighting your corner and sticking to your principles but I have to ask you why you think the man deserves us to give him time, how has he earned the prestigious office he finds himself holding, because nobody seems to know. The best scenario is to get him out of the club asap, because he is doomed to fail. Ask Alex McLeish, or Hodgson at Liverpool (managers with much better track records); if the fans don't want you, you won't succeed.
I have no affinity for the man nor was I part of the recruitment process so don't know the reason for his appointment.
As Albion79 so eloquently put it,  I haven't seen a great deal different to what I would have expected had we appointed any other manager at this point.
I am becoming disillusioned with our support,  oureexpectations and our treatment of the team and other employees.  Greed League has a lot to answer for.
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2731 on: September 16, 2014, 03:41:06 PM »
Worth noting that any compensation package we would have to pay should he get the boot won't be much as I beleive he is only on a 12 month contract
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2732 on: September 16, 2014, 04:02:04 PM »
Whatever the real reason, Irvine has had a limited pool of players to choose from (or he chose to choose from) for these first games.  I do not like what I have seen so far, but let's judge him from now onwards when he has a full pack to deal from.  That will tell us what he is really like.  If that proves to be much the same as we have already seen then so be it.  But let's see what the real Irvine is before we condemn him.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2733 on: September 16, 2014, 04:10:04 PM »
Whatever the real reason, Irvine has had a limited pool of players to choose from (or he chose to choose from) for these first games.  I do not like what I have seen so far, but let's judge him from now onwards when he has a full pack to deal from.  That will tell us what he is really like.  If that proves to be much the same as we have already seen then so be it.  But let's see what the real Irvine is before we condemn him.
Clearly Peace saw something in him beyond the Preston/SheffWed technocrat (failed), hope it comes to the fore soon!

PS mrmojorisin, is your screen name the anagram of Jim Morrison from LAWoman?

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2734 on: September 16, 2014, 04:12:25 PM »
I would hope that the new signings would maybe play another closed doors game this week and then be ready for Sunday,
Some of them could have played in yesterday's U21 game, but none of them did. Irvine seems to be waiting for them to get match fit but without them appearing in matches! It's hard not to conclude that the more attack-minded they are, the more time he seems to think they need before being regarded as fit enough to start. He had no choice but to put Bobby in, as there would be even more uproar if he carried on leaving him out after we'd paid £10 for him.

Pepe Mel was worshipped by some yet he had 20 odd games in charge i think and i would say out of those we were decent in about 5 maximum,  Irvine has been decent in 2 out of 5, so maybe he does deserve a bit more time.
Pepe Mel had 17 games "in charge" I think. He didn't get to sign players or have a full pre-season with the squad, so your comparison between him and Irvine is unfair in my opinion.

Whoever came in had a massive job and i think would of struggled, yet the atmosphere at the game Saturday was poisonous
That was always going to be a danger when Peace decided to bring him in. You'd be hard pushed to find a fan who wanted Irvine to come in, and what they've seen so far makes it look like they were right, hence the poisonous atmosphere. The only thing that might conceivably change it is to see him introduce a much more attack-minded approach, but has he got it in him, when his attitude has always been to fear the opposition?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 04:15:22 PM by WorcsWBA »

TheJacko2000

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2735 on: September 16, 2014, 04:22:30 PM »
Mel took points of Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Chelsea, Swansea. Didn't drop points to rivals like Cardiff and Norwich. We then knew we were safe and the last few games we went through the motions.

Irvine has avoided dropping points to rivals Sunderland and has taken points off Southampton. If Irvine gets 17 games I don't expect him to match Mel's record and that's without an end of season malaise, no recruitment and no preseason. What irks me most is his approach to games. We look like we're afraid to go for it and that is down to the guy who drills them all week. I can never imagine we will score 3 goals against anyone under Irvine, never mind take a 3 goal lead.
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2736 on: September 16, 2014, 04:24:18 PM »
Clearly Peace saw something in him beyond the Preston/SheffWed technocrat (failed), hope it comes to the fore soon!

PS mrmojorisin, is your screen name the anagram of Jim Morrison from LAWoman?

It certainly is.  The Doors - best band ever.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2737 on: September 16, 2014, 04:39:50 PM »
I think Jacko got it spot on when he used Mcleish at Villa and Hodgson at Liverpool as examples, if the fans dont want you, you havent got much of a chance, it wont be the only reason he fails but it certainly wont help.

The actual passing and work rate has been okay for most of the season, the problem is there is no cutting edge to it, we knock it around but dont create anything or trouble the opposition, the players who tend to hurt the opposition are attacking players, and we have only been able to get one of our new attacking players on the pitch (Ideye) like somebody said above when he is a position to pick from the full squad judge then, we have Varela, Blanco, Samaras and Gamboa (sort of) who will massively increase our attacking options.

I know somebody said about the under 21's playing last night, maybe the first team have a friendly tomorrow or thursday where all the new boys, plus those coming back from injury get a runout together instead of the only 1 or 2 allowed for the under 21's.

The problem is if we sack Irvine, because of the expectation we now have there will always be a large number of fans who dont want the person appointed as each have labels, Pulis - Long Ball, Sherwood - Managed for 5 minutes, Mackay - seems to have issues, Jol - too old, etc, etc, etc and based on how we have treated Irvine, the new manager if they dont mould 11 new players into the squad and produce attacking entertaining football from the start then they should be sacked after 5 games, because thats how Irvine is being treated.

As i have said previous i didnt want Irvine and i dont think he will succeed, however i felt the same about a certain Gary Megson, gave him a chance (as most fans did back then even if hardly anybody wanted him) and its fair to say he didnt do too bad! Lets at least give Irvine a chance instead of people saying after 5 games he has to go!

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2738 on: September 16, 2014, 05:06:45 PM »
I think your right, the level of expectation is high at the moment, as we have 'survived' and beyond for a few season now in the top flight, and we are used to decent football.

Irvine was a shocking choice at the time, tempered by some much needed new signings, however the very short 'honeymoon' period is over, and unfortunately for Irvine he has to get a result and quick, followed by some good performances on the pitch (not just in training), as this is something we pride ourselves on at the Hawthorns.

Lets hope he can pull it around, or we make a change sooner rather than later, to drag it on just to save face of the chairman won't wash with the supporters.

Sadly Irvine's days are numbered and were from the day he joined, however I am hopeful (heart more than head), that by Christmas all this will be behind us and we'll have a 'manager' in charge who knows what he is doing.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2739 on: September 16, 2014, 05:32:48 PM »
Going on what we have seen during Pre season and so far i hope Jack Russell is taking note wherever he is , and to think he used to call Steve Clarke a "Dour Scot" ! ;D
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2740 on: September 16, 2014, 05:45:21 PM »
Going on what we have seen during Pre season and so far i hope Jack Russell is taking note wherever he is , and to think he used to call Steve Clarke a "Dour Scot" ! ;D
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2741 on: September 16, 2014, 08:08:43 PM »
It really is up to Alan Irvine now, the ball is firmly in your court. Stop rolling out the 'not match fit' excuses to not play a more attacking side and grow some balls. I fear he hasn't got it in him though and will be gone by the Liverpool game at the latest. 

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2742 on: September 16, 2014, 08:55:57 PM »
we've been playing poor since the christmas period of clarkes reign. we didn't so much as finish 8th we fell back into 8th. if the teams below us had gone on a good run we would've definately finished lower. this means we've been constantly playing rubbish ever since and the only constants at the club since then have been downing and keily. so if irvine gets the boot these two have to go aswell or we'll still be playing the same tepid unimaginative football we've become used to . also if we've got any chance of bringing in a better quality coach e.g. jol or  pulis  they'll only come if they can bring their own staff in, people who they can trust my only bad feeling about that is i can't see peace breaking  up the old pals act so we may get another poor appointment.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2743 on: September 17, 2014, 12:29:10 AM »
It is quite interesting what a bit of research shows rather than relying on gossip on internet forums.

His "failures" in a bit more context.

Made manager of Preston when they were 21st in the division and fighting a relegation battle and finished 15th, failure?  Following season got them in the play offs, failure? Sacked in 2009 when in 16th position (ended in 17th) and Preston fans demonstrated about his sacking, failure?
Appointed Sheff Wednesday manager 9 days after getting the sack from Preston (impressive turn around) when they were in 22nd but didn't keep them up. Failure?
Was the 7th manager of Sheff Wednesday in 10 years, prior to his appointment SW avoided relegation on the last day of the season, then finished 12th and were in a relegation spot when he joined. They went into administration 3 months after he arrived and was dismissed by a new chairman a month after he arrived at the club with the club in 15th. Arguably his time at Sheff Wed was a failure, but in the context of the club at the time anything but failure would probably have been a miracle.

I think that is very unfair - internet forums are just a medium for fans to give their views - and I am not too quick to write of the views of those who have actually watched a lot of what he has to offer (a lot more than most football people would have seen).

Sheffield Wednesday fans (and to a lesser extent Preston fans) told us what to expect about his football. Admittedly Preston fans did not really want him to go and did support him, although I think you haven't really given the full story about the position Preston were in when Irvine took over - they had finished 5th, 4th and 7th in the 3 seasons leading up to Irvine taking over and he took over only a few months into the new season so it was a false position going on their previous record and their squad at the time.

The fact that the football served up at the moment, right down to the shape of our midfield, is exactly what Sheff Wednesday fans said that it would be, hints that they did have a point and it was not merely "internet gossip".
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2744 on: September 17, 2014, 12:35:30 PM »

Well it's 12:34pm and he's still here......

I knew that photocall was the wrong idea :)

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2745 on: September 17, 2014, 02:19:57 PM »
Can someone get a message to him.All he has to do to save his job is attack the oppositions goal, anything can happen from there
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2746 on: September 17, 2014, 02:31:19 PM »
It certainly is.  The Doors - best band ever.

Mr Mojo rising, got to keep on rising.....gold.

All this talk about AIs past is almost irrelevant at this stage because we have seen his team play. It doesn't look good, you can say its injuries, new squad players etc but the football has been negative, substitutions all be it some forced have IMO been poorly timed e.g against Everton one nil down crying out for changes nothing until two nil down and he takes an attacker off for another attacker and his starting line ups devoid of creativity e.g what has Sess done to deserve the cold shoulder.

The past is important but not as important as the next 5 games, we need a couple of wins.

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2747 on: September 17, 2014, 03:45:34 PM »
I think every manager once appointed deserves a chance, Irvine was always on a hiding to nothing if he didn't start well. Fans are generally fickle, if we won alot of games people wouldn't care but he isn't winning.

While his experience with Preston and Sheff Wed doesn't bode well you have to judge on what he does at the moment. The evidence so far is not in Irvine's favour! His team selection and tactics seem to suggest he wants a point and we will attempt to play on the break with a rigid defensive system (how we can break with a midfield of Gardner, Dorrans, Morrison and Brunt is beyond me). Gary Monk at Swansea said at Chelsea "we always want to play on the front foot" you just don't get that impression with Irvine. I guess its hard to start on the front foot when we have let in goals in the first 6 minutes in 3 of our games :(

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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2748 on: September 17, 2014, 04:08:32 PM »
I've been in the give him time camp..I still am..... just.

what I have been disillusioned with is line ups especially against Everton. Lescott plays 90 mins against Hull and according to Irvine plays well yet doesn't even make the match day squad, Blanco and Gamboa on the bench, no Sessegnon no Varela. All players who would've improved the line up.

He is far too reactive rather than trying to be proactive. After 60 minutes of huffing and puffing against Everton it was obvious to everyone we needed some pace and quality. Instead he waits until we are 2-0 down and gives the subs 15 minutes to do something.

I wish he would succeed but I'm beginning to agree with those who say he's out of his depth at this level.
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Re: Alan Irvine sacked by Albion
« Reply #2749 on: September 17, 2014, 04:11:56 PM »
He was never qualified for such a high profile job, and he is clearly out of his depth.

I doubt he'll forego his pay-off and fall on his sword.

But, here's hoping!