[California Dreaming]

Where do people get that the club owes Lai anything? From the 2020 accounts, West Bromwich Albion Group Ltd do not have any inter-company debt owing to West Bromwich Albion Holdings Ltd (the company that holds Lai’s 88% shareholding in WBA Group Ltd.
He could, of course, pay himself (and all other shareholders) a dividend out of reserves (£32m at July 2020) but has shown no indication of doing so.

[paulosull]

Can anyone answer me this, how is it that club finance's appear to be so dire? Match day revenue is a small percentage of yearly earnings. Think I saw somewhere that its about £7.5 million annually, we should be fiush with funds after promotion and parachute payments and getting high earners of books.

[paulosull]

Where do people get that the club owes Lai anything? From the 2020 accounts, West Bromwich Albion Group Ltd do not have any inter-company debt owing to West Bromwich Albion Holdings Ltd (the company that holds Lai’s 88% shareholding in WBA Group Ltd.
He could, of course, pay himself (and all other shareholders) a dividend out of reserves (£32m at July 2020) but has shown no indication of doing so.

so club has got £32 million in bank?

[MarkW]

Can anyone answer me this, how is it that club finance's appear to be so dire? Match day revenue is a small percentage of yearly earnings. Think I saw somewhere that its about £7.5 million annually, we should be fiush with funds after promotion and parachute payments and getting high earners of books.

From our accounts:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08528749/filing-history/MzI5NzQ3ODI0NmFkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0

For the season ending in our promotion from the Championship (31st July 2020), we made a loss of £23.8m. The report says the loss was due to promotion bonuses and bottom line losses due to Covid.

Income from media activities fell by over £12m, partly due to the reduction in parachute payments, but also the rebate the Broadcasters requested. Apparently there's another penalty of £7m for promoted clubs, too.

Wages increased to £66.9m from £46.8m in June 2019, mainly due to promotion bonuses/clauses.

I'm not an accountant or well versed in going through the accounts, but I can't see where we have £32m just sitting around doing nothing.

[LiamTheBaggie]

Can anyone answer me this, how is it that club finance's appear to be so dire? Match day revenue is a small percentage of yearly earnings. Think I saw somewhere that its about £7.5 million annually, we should be fiush with funds after promotion and parachute payments and getting high earners of books.

The £7m figure will include match days and merchandise.

The match day is around £4m and that has been another loss to the finances.

Our last season at this level saw us turnover £53m whilst posting huge losses of £23m.

Our wage bill at the last set of accounts had risen to £66m and does not take into account the further increase to wages through our summer business last season - nor the £25m we spent in fees.

We also had to give £10m to the Covid refund.

I wouldn’t say we’re flush. Better position than most but still uncomfortable in a post Covid world.

[baggiejohn]

From our accounts:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08528749/filing-history/MzI5NzQ3ODI0NmFkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0

For the season ending in our promotion from the Championship (31st July 2020), we made a loss of £23.8m. The report says the loss was due to promotion bonuses and bottom line losses due to Covid.

Income from media activities fell by over £12m, partly due to the reduction in parachute payments, but also the rebate the Broadcasters requested. Apparently there's another penalty of £7m for promoted clubs, too.

Wages increased to £66.9m from £46.8m in June 2019, mainly due to promotion bonuses/clauses.

I'm not an accountant or well versed in going through the accounts, but I can't see where we have £32m just sitting around doing nothing.

We don't, the reserves include property values.

As far as I am aware, a company can only pay a dividend from profits.

[paulosull]

Hold on even with being in prem club lost money? That can't be right.

[johnny Cash]

Hold on even with being in prem club lost money? That can't be right.

Prem accounts won’t be out for a while. Reporting period doesn’t end for a week then they’ll have months to compile and submit the accounts to companies house.

[LiamTheBaggie]

Hold on even with being in prem club lost money? That can't be right.

Nobody has said that..

[paulosull]

Nobody has said that..

well if financial stable why haven't we addressed our short comings on pitch? So far we have acquired a loan signing and two free's all welcome, while Gibbs reported to be on 65 k, Austin on 50k and HRK on North of 30 k have all left club along side Harper, Field and Edwards who would all be on decent contracts. All I'm hearing is that we have to sell our to prized assets to bring monies into club. Doesn't look like our short stay in prem has boosted the coffers if anything it's laid the cupboards bare.

[LiamTheBaggie]

well if financial stable why haven't we addressed our short comings on pitch? So far we have acquired a loan signing and two free's all welcome, while Gibbs reported to be on 65 k, Austin on 50k and HRK on North of 30 k have all left club along side Harper, Field and Edwards who would all be on decent contracts. All I'm hearing is that we have to sell our to prized assets to bring monies into club. Doesn't look like our short stay in prem has boosted the coffers if anything it's laid the cupboards bare.

Promotion to the premier league is roughly £100m a season with the remaining monies paid in parachute payments should clubs go down.

That £100m can be easily accounted for - upon promotion the way bill was £66m - it is not inconceivable that this increased to near £70m. We spent up to £25m on fees which takes us to £95 and we had to give a further £10m to the Covid recovery fund.

I think the first set of parachute payments are around £45m - that may just cover the wage bill that as you say will have been slashed following Gibbs and co leaving.

It’s not hard to see why the club needs to sell some of the family gold to increase the funds we have to play with..

Someone with greater financial insight will give you the true parachute payment figures, but you’re basis is there.

There really is not a pot of gold that were sitting and hiding away.

[skyclad99]

The thing that worries me is that many think we will be cash rich once we sell the family gold. My fear is that anything raised will go towards balancing the books first, and anything left will possibly be made available to VI for players. So when MP & SJ are sold, we may not be acquiring the big time players some may be expecting.

[paulosull]

Promotion to the premier league is roughly £100m a season with the remaining monies paid in parachute payments should clubs go down.

That £100m can be easily accounted for - upon promotion the way bill was £66m - it is not inconceivable that this increased to near £70m. We spent up to £25m on fees which takes us to £95 and we had to give a further £10m to the Covid recovery fund.

I think the first set of parachute payments are around £45m - that may just cover the wage bill that as you say will have been slashed following Gibbs and co leaving.

It’s not hard to see why the club needs to sell some of the family gold to increase the funds we have to play with..

Someone with greater financial insight will give you the true parachute payment figures, but you’re basis is there.

There really is not a pot of gold that were sitting and hiding away.

what about transfer incomings surely we had monies owed on Rondon, Dawson, Rodriguez to name a few.

[California Dreaming]

so club has got £32 million in bank?

No. Profit is not the same as cash. The £32m is our cumulative profits built up over several years which in theory could be paid as a dividend. We would have to borrow to do this and it almost certainly won’t happen.
Remember these accounts are 12 months so don’t reflect where we are now. We may have made a small profit in 2020/21 but probably not added much to our cash balance. We will almost certainly lose money this season and with continuing uncertainty over gate receipts, caution in the transfer market, at least until we sell someone. Is inevitable.

[California Dreaming]

what about transfer incomings surely we had monies owed on Rondon, Dawson, Rodriguez to name a few.

At 31/7/20 we were owed 7.2m for player transfers. Unfortunately we owed 18m on players we had bought in previous seasons ( probably includes Periera), so that’s another 10 million cash out of our accounts last season.

[LiamTheBaggie]

what about transfer incomings surely we had monies owed on Rondon, Dawson, Rodriguez to name a few.

That was accounted for in our summer rebuild where we spent the best part of £20m to get out the division

[boinging_along]

For such an allegedly 'well run club', we never seem to have any money.

[baggiejohn]

No. Profit is not the same as cash. The £32m is our cumulative profits built up over several years which in theory could be paid as a dividend. We would have to borrow to do this and it almost certainly won’t happen.
Remember these accounts are 12 months so don’t reflect where we are now. We may have made a small profit in 2020/21 but probably not added much to our cash balance. We will almost certainly lose money this season and with continuing uncertainty over gate receipts, caution in the transfer market, at least until we sell someone. Is inevitable.

Not sure where you're getting the £32 million from?

WBAFC haven't made a profit for some time now, & certainly nowhere near an accumulated profit of £32 million


If you look at the notes on the accounts of WBAFC, WBA Group & WBA Holdings, the highest level company is notified as WBA Holdings.
In the accounts for WBAFC & WBA Holdings, under creditors there is clearly a debt to Group Undertakings of around £23 million, & under debtors an amount of around £4.7 million owed to WBAFC by Group Undertakings.

[baggiejohn]

The thing that worries me is that many think we will be cash rich once we sell the family gold. My fear is that anything raised will go towards balancing the books first, and anything left will possibly be made available to VI for players. So when MP & SJ are sold, we may not be acquiring the big time players some may be expecting.

There is that possibility, but I suspect the policy will be to strengthen the team in a bid for promotion.

What they won't want to do is increase the debt, & IMO, they will be reluctant to pay the same level of transfer fees as last season.

[skyclad99]

There is that possibility, but I suspect the policy will be to strengthen the team in a bid for promotion.

What they won't want to do is increase the debt, & IMO, they will be reluctant to pay the same level of transfer fees as last season.

I think with what we have at the moment, and with a few low price additions, we will have enough to get out of this division. The acid test will be next year if we go up. That will be the window of opportunity for Lai to sell, or else we are going to repeat the same sorry cycle once again. However, I agree with you, money will be their god and they will not want to have the debt, or increase it.

Less said about the loan the better   

[California Dreaming]

WBA Holdings is Lai’s company that owns 88% of WBA Group. The published accounts sent to shareholders are WBA Group - these show no inter-company debt. The 22m shown as ‘company’ in the 2020 accounts is probably owed to WBA Football Club Ltd, 100% owned by WBA Group Ltd - you can tell this because it disappears on consolidation into the higher level Group accounts.
And yes, we have £31565k in the p&l account under ‘capital and reserves’ in the balance sheet.

[johnny Cash]

Not sure where you're getting the £32 million from?

WBAFC haven't made a profit for some time now, & certainly nowhere near an accumulated profit of £32 million


If you look at the notes on the accounts of WBAFC, WBA Group & WBA Holdings, the highest level company is notified as WBA Holdings.
In the accounts for WBAFC & WBA Holdings, under creditors there is clearly a debt to Group Undertakings of around £23 million, & under debtors an amount of around £4.7 million owed to WBAFC by Group Undertakings.

It was YE July 2017 we announced pre tax profits of £38m.

One thing I’ve noticed from 2016 (pre lai) is we paid a dividend to the holding company of £28m.  The E&S had a story in 2019 that supposedly explained it:

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2019/01/24/mysterious-27m-cash-transfer-between-west-brom-accounts-explained/

Obviously Lai then bought us and I wonder if it is in fact that money that has some point gone back in to the club accounts appears as money due to the owner?

I’m ok at reading / interpreting single year accounts, but where they move between companies and over multiple years i lose a grip on things because I don’t know enough about it all. Could anyone shed any light on this?

That might it’s just club money knocking around rather than money that should be due to Lai as such? (And that if he was to take it the S4A members would also be due?)

[bidbaggie]

WBA Holdings is Lai’s company that owns 88% of WBA Group. The published accounts sent to shareholders are WBA Group - these show no inter-company debt. The 22m shown as ‘company’ in the 2020 accounts is probably owed to WBA Football Club Ltd, 100% owned by WBA Group Ltd - you can tell this because it disappears on consolidation into the higher level Group accounts.
And yes, we have £31565k in the p&l account under ‘capital and reserves’ in the balance sheet.

Hi - sorry if I have quoted this incorrectly as this is my first post but not sure where the 31,565k comes from.  On the 13 month accounts ended 31/7/20 I have seen, the group balance sheet in WBA Holdings Ltd shows "capital and reserves" of 34,349k

24m of this is actually share premium account which isn't a distributable reserve.  The only amount that could be taken out as a dividend approx. £10m

[paulosull]

For such an allegedly 'well run club', we never seem to have any money.

that's my feeling also promotion seems to do little to our fortunes

[TheJacko2000]

that's my feeling also promotion seems to do little to our fortunes

Our flex contracts sort of work against us (while preventing serious issues upon relegation if they weren't there)... They flex down to the maximum we can afford in the Championship and flex up to the maximum we can afford in the Premier League, would be nice to have some wiggle room in both divisions...