Author Topic: Steven Gerrard  (Read 1613 times)

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Baggies

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Steven Gerrard
« on: April 30, 2020, 11:24:16 AM »
I've had a few conversations (mainly online) in recent weeks about Steven Gerrard and I think i'm in the minority in my belief that despite being good, there are midfieders in the last 20 years who have been comfortably better.

My own view is that he has a great engine, he could drive a team forward, he could score goals and he was versatile, however he played for one club side his whole career who played to his strengths and built teams around him. He played lots of hollywood passes but I don't believe his game was suited to breaking down stubborn, compact defences, as tight, intricate passing wasn't really part of his game.

You saw this play out when he was with England, where he looked distinctly average for most games he played, even if it was a very unbalanced midfield when he was with Lampard/Beckham/Scholes. His over reliance on long passes was shown up when playing for England and not having the foreign players around him who could do more of the intricate, patient build up work.

As I say, I think i'm in the minority as people seem to put a lot of emphasis on his versatility, saying he played most positions in his career, that he didn't have great players around him, and always pushing the "name a more complete midfielder" line, but I don't really think a jack of all trades, master of none is somebody i'd put in the top bracket.

It's all opinions I suppose.
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albion59

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2020, 02:58:39 PM »
Lampard over Gerrard all day long.

zippyandbungle

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2020, 06:45:56 PM »
I've had a few conversations (mainly online) in recent weeks about Steven Gerrard and I think i'm in the minority in my belief that despite being good, there are midfieders in the last 20 years who have been comfortably better.

My own view is that he has a great engine, he could drive a team forward, he could score goals and he was versatile, however he played for one club side his whole career who played to his strengths and built teams around him. He played lots of hollywood passes but I don't believe his game was suited to breaking down stubborn, compact defences, as tight, intricate passing wasn't really part of his game.

You saw this play out when he was with England, where he looked distinctly average for most games he played, even if it was a very unbalanced midfield when he was with Lampard/Beckham/Scholes. His over reliance on long passes was shown up when playing for England and not having the foreign players around him who could do more of the intricate, patient build up work.

As I say, I think i'm in the minority as people seem to put a lot of emphasis on his versatility, saying he played most positions in his career, that he didn't have great players around him, and always pushing the "name a more complete midfielder" line, but I don't really think a jack of all trades, master of none is somebody i'd put in the top bracket.

It's all opinions I suppose.
If you put him up against the best of his era
Zidane more skill
Beckham was a better crosser
Scholes was better postionally
Keane better at tackling
Lampard better at shooting
Iniesta / Xavi better at passing
Even mulumbu would do him on engine
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TheJacko2000

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2020, 07:55:23 PM »
Comedy thread, won an FA Cup final and Champions League final virtually on his own.


To turn Zippy's post on it's head: A better athlete than Zidane; better passer, tackler, runner, goal scorer, than Beckham; better tackler, engine than Scholes; better passer, runner, goal scorer, set-piece taker than Keane; better everything than Lampard except eye for goal; better tackler, better shot, better crosser than Xavi and Iniesta; Will give you Mulumbu...


Steven Gerrard was the complete midfielder. No one in world football touched him in that he could do everything. Master of all Trades would be a better description.
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albion59

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2020, 08:14:25 PM »
Comedy thread, won an FA Cup final and Champions League final virtually on his own.


To turn Zippy's post on it's head: A better athlete than Zidane; better passer, tackler, runner, goal scorer, than Beckham; better tackler, engine than Scholes; better passer, runner, goal scorer, set-piece taker than Keane; better everything than Lampard except eye for goal; better tackler, better shot, better crosser than Xavi and Iniesta; Will give you Mulumbu...


Steven Gerrard was the complete midfielder. No one in world football touched him in that he could do everything. Master of all Trades would be a better description.
Xavi was the most complete midfielder i have ever seen he won the champions league the Euro's and the World cup on his own! He made Barcelona and Spain the teams they where. As for your observation that  Gerrard could do everything better than Beckham, so could I!!  :D

zippyandbungle

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2020, 09:04:09 PM »
Comedy thread, won an FA Cup final and Champions League final virtually on his own.


To turn Zippy's post on it's head: A better athlete than Zidane; better passer, tackler, runner, goal scorer, than Beckham; better tackler, engine than Scholes; better passer, runner, goal scorer, set-piece taker than Keane; better everything than Lampard except eye for goal; better tackler, better shot, better crosser than Xavi and Iniesta; Will give you Mulumbu...


Steven Gerrard was the complete midfielder. No one in world football touched him in that he could do everything. Master of all Trades would be a better description.
Mulumbu 😊
Seriously, if all the midfielders mentioned were available and FFP decreed you could sign one ....at their peak....who would Man City sign ?
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TheJacko2000

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2020, 09:48:06 PM »
Mulumbu 😊
Seriously, if all the midfielders mentioned were available and FFP decreed you could sign one ....at their peak....who would Man City sign ?


Gerrard.


Zidane if they didn't have De Bruyne.
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gazberg

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2020, 10:03:07 PM »
Stevie G was an immense player on his day. He could do it all. He single handedly dragged Liverpool to victory in Europe. May not have been THE best technically but was not too far from anyone at anything whther it be passing, shooting, tackling etc . No one could match his all-round play for me in his prime.

When Gerrard was in his prime Pele said something along the lines of he is the most complete footballer in the world. That is validation enough for me.

iwastherein68

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2020, 04:27:38 AM »
Great player, lacking personality, and not a very nice geezer in my humble opinion.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 07:14:29 AM by iwastherein68 »
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Baggies

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2020, 09:09:54 AM »
Again though, the rationalle for Gerrard being great seems to be his versatility, but then you could point to Ryan Giggs, Bastian Schweinsteiger and Wayne Rooney as players who were able to play a number of roles during their careers and yet don't get spoken about in thr same way.

I think my main question marks come from his time in an England shirt. If Gerrard was the complete midfielder, why couldn't he perform despite being surrounded by other players who had won all of the top honours (Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, Rooney, Lampard, Beckham, Scholes, Owen).

I think there is more to be said for a specialist who can give you 10/10 in one role rather than somebody who can do a lot of roles at 7 or 8 /10.
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TheJacko2000

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2020, 11:45:19 AM »
Again though, the rationalle for Gerrard being great seems to be his versatility, but then you could point to Ryan Giggs, Bastian Schweinsteiger and Wayne Rooney as players who were able to play a number of roles during their careers and yet don't get spoken about in thr same way.

I think my main question marks come from his time in an England shirt. If Gerrard was the complete midfielder, why couldn't he perform despite being surrounded by other players who had won all of the top honours (Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, Rooney, Lampard, Beckham, Scholes, Owen).

I think there is more to be said for a specialist who can give you 10/10 in one role rather than somebody who can do a lot of roles at 7 or 8 /10.


He got over a hundred caps, was England captain, he drove the 5-1 against Germany and dragged us through 2 major Championships. His international career was excellent despite being hampered by them not using an Alonso type (Barry) alongside him to fit Lampard in the team.


I'd be interested to hear who you thought had a decent England career?
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baggiebof

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2020, 12:02:05 PM »
I disagree with you Baggies, I thought Gerrard was genuinely terrific. Agree regards intricate play to an extent but I think this came to Gerrard later under Rafa when he started playing in behind Torres.

With the England career, I think there are many factors from club rivalry (touched upon by Gerdinand in a BT Sport interview, poor tactical setups by managers and perhaps a misremembering of his career for England which was good, if not reaching the same heights as his club career.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2020, 12:12:21 PM »
I don’t think many did have a good England career Jacko. Beckham and Owen had good spells in an England shirt earlier in their career and the defenders always held their own but I always felt English players looked worse in an England shirt, compared to when they got to play with their continental colleagues at their club sides. Post tournament analysis from that time always showed that England sides completed less passes than the other top sides and had less possession and chances created.

That’s partly why I don’t class any England midfielder or striker from that generation as being in the conversation for best of their generation. They were still good - Lampard was one of the best goal scoring midfielders around, Beckham had the best cross/long pass in the world as well as being in the top 5 free kick takers in the world and Gerrard was of course one of the most versatile midfielders in the world, but their performances when out of their comfort zone always made me feel that they relied on their Spanish/Brazilian/French/Portuguese colleagues to plug gaps in their games when in club sides that allowed them for focus on what they were good at and thrive. They needed the foreign players to make their game work, where as their colleagues could fit into different sides and not lose something from their game.

I’m not saying I think I’m definitely right about this, as there are other factors at play. Maybe the longer English seasons without the winter break negatively impacted their time in an England shirt, or the failure to correctly use the likes of Scholes, Carrick, Barry and Hargreaves to give the England sides more balance. Besides, it is all theoretical as there is no sure fire metric for measuring who was better than who.

I’ve just never been able to shake the view that Gerrard was a classic example of an English produced player who’s game was developed by playing on full size pitches from age 9, where you benefited from bursting through into wide open space and where long balls and a good shot were your go to’s, rather than having to develop puzzle solving by playing longer on small pitches without much space. He was good, but I think there was a level of player above him from that generation, whereas the majority of English football fans feel he was in the top category (with many arguin he was the best midfielder of his generation).
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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2020, 01:12:02 PM »
Gerrard is a very British failure. He get's lambasted for not being quite as good as he might have been rather than celebrated for how good he was. Equally a generational talent as an 8 couldn't play along side the other and to mind slightly better talent of Frank Lampard not because it was an unfathomable conundrum but because none of the national team coaches had the wit to figure it out. Clue a deep sitting playmaker.

As football has developed tactically a central midfield 3 can carry a specialist but the other 2 are by default are generalists to an extent otherwise you are pushing forwards and wingers to cover the space and functions that would otherwise be filled by the central midfielders. In the dear old 4-4-2 the central two are either generalists or frankly it's a mess they weren't and it was. 

Too frequently England team selection has been by acclimation of the eleven best players or somehow a player's club performances have justified recognition as an act of tokenism rather than an actual team picked to fit some sort of coherent tactical template. To his credit Southgate as a coach has not indulged the clamour for x or y player to be recognised.

As a player he probably spent too long at Liverpool and needed a different footballing environment certainly one where he wasn't so central to the club. I often feel the great obsession with the British "captain fantastic" does those burdened with the weight of expectation no favours be that Robson, Gerrard or Shearer.
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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2020, 04:24:49 PM »
Stevie G ..... single handedly dragged Liverpool to victory in Europe.

Ok, we'll forget about the introduction of Hamann and the contribution of Dudek.
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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2020, 04:28:30 PM »
Ok, we'll forget about the introduction of Hamann and the contribution of Dudek.

You know what i mean. No Stevie G no Champions League no matter who else they brought on.

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Re: Steven Gerrard
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2020, 05:34:12 PM »
Was definitely a top tier player in the Premier League.

The thing that stood out to me was listening to an interview ahead of a World Cup as England captain. He was on about young players coming into the squad and saying how he had to tell them how important it was; that they can't fail and lose and play badly. Basically seemed like he was having them focus on all the negative they shouldn't be doing; which wouldn't be my ideal method of leadership.