WestBrom.com
Off Topic => General Football & Sports => Topic started by: Fritzl Palace on June 24, 2021, 04:32:13 PM
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Officially announced by the club as our new head coach on a four year contract. Great news and look forward to seeing what he brings to us in terms of style of play and results
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/albion-appoint-valerien-ismael-head-coach
West Bromwich Albion are delighted to confirm the appointment of Valérien Ismaël as the club’s new Head Coach.
Ismaël has signed a four-year contract at The Hawthorns after Albion agreed a compensation package with Barnsley. The Frenchman guided the Tykes to an impressive fifth-placed finish in the Sky Bet Championship last season.
The 45-year-old is set to arrive in the United Kingdom later this week and will follow Government COVID-19 quarantine rules prior to joining his first-team squad for pre-season training.
Chief Executive Officer, Xu Ke, also known as Ken, is delighted to have recruited Ismaël and is confident the former Nuremberg, Wolfsburg, LASK and Barnsley boss is the right man to lead Albion into the new campaign and beyond.
He said: “I am delighted to welcome Valérien to The Hawthorns. Valérien has established a reputation as an excellent coach and I have been impressed by his professionalism, enthusiasm and hunger to succeed. His performance last season with Barnsley, and his coaching career to date, all point to a man who has a long, successful career in front of him. It is my hope that he is with us for at least the next four years.
“I am confident that by working together we will be able to achieve our goal of returning to the Premier League, but success is earned by building on strong foundations, and our plans must now look further into the future. For too long we have focused only on what is immediately in front of us. This means we have often neglected our long-term aspirations.
“We are all aware of what will be required in order to be successful and player recruitment will be of the utmost importance. Valérien and I will immediately focus on preparing the squad for the new season, working together with Ian Pearce, our Head of Recruitment, to secure talented transfer targets who will strengthen us for the challenges ahead, ensuring fans are once more proud to support this great club.
“I am excited to be working with Valérien and I am sure we will soon establish a strong relationship that will be to the benefit of the football club and its supporters.â€
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Joseph Masi Tweeted
BREAKING: Valerien Ismael is Albion's new head coach. He has signed a four year deal at The Hawthorns... #wba
Joseph Masi
@JosephMasi_Star
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Welcome aboard the Good Ship Albion Valérien, I wish you every success
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Joseph Masi Tweeted
“I feel really proud to have accepted this challenge and after talking with Ken about the project here, and how we would integrate a new identity, I’m ready to get to work. I feel a big responsibility but I’m ready for this job and I am delighted to be here." #wba
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On Albion’s current squad and player recruitment, the former Barnsley boss said: “We have a good mix of young and experienced players in this squad and for sure we will need some new faces in certain positions - but the only massive change here will be the way we play and the formation.
Change of formation coming then !
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Joseph Masi Tweeted
“My first task is to implement a new identity that the fans can enjoy and one where they can see the players are there for each other and give everything to win games. We have a clear plan and vision of where we want to go." #wba
CEO Ken: "I am confident by working together we will be able to achieve our goal of returning to PL but our plans must look further into the future. For too long we have focused only on what is immediately in front of us. This means we have often neglected long-term aspirations."
Ken ctd: Player recruitment will be of the utmost importance. Valérien & I will immediately focus on preparing the squad for the new season, working together with Ian Pearce, our Head of Recruitment, to secure transfer targets who will strengthen us for the challenges ahead."#wba
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Welcome Valerien and good luck! I hope you are able to persuade the owners to part with some of their millions. You have a major rebuilding job in front of you.
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Welcome to the club Valerian!! Let's hope it's a successful stay
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Joseph Masi Tweeted
“My first task is to implement a new identity that the fans can enjoy and one where they can see the players are there for each other and give everything to win games. We have a clear plan and vision of where we want to go." #wba
CEO Ken: "I am confident by working together we will be able to achieve our goal of returning to PL but our plans must look further into the future. For too long we have focused only on what is immediately in front of us. This means we have often neglected long-term aspirations."
Ken ctd: Player recruitment will be of the utmost importance. Valérien & I will immediately focus on preparing the squad for the new season, working together with Ian Pearce, our Head of Recruitment, to secure transfer targets who will strengthen us for the challenges ahead."#wba
Nice to hear them talking about long-term aspirations instead of short term fixes as seems to have been our way of operating for quite some time now. Establishing an identity would be very welcome
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Definatley a change in tack. Slaven got only a two yeat contract, looks like this is more of a long term appointment.
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Welcome Valerian!
Excited too see what you bring
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Great to have finally appointed someone. I think this is a really exciting appointment. Good statement from Ken too with regards to having a more long term plan.
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Gruess dich Valerien! Viel Spass und Erfolg bei der Albion!
(just in case he's reading)
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Welcome Valerien and good luck, you are going to need it ;)
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"Why 5pm? Whats wrong with 4:37pm? Why does it have to be exactly on the hour?"
I was so so close ;D
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That's a relief then - welcome Valérien! I'm highly delighted by this news and the 4 year contract does send out a statement of intent by the club (reinforced by Ken's comments). It's a shame that Valérien's abroad at present and will have to quarantine (10 days?) when he returns to the UK, but there's stilll plenty he can do during that time anyway. It'll also give some Albion fans time to learn to spell his name properly! ;D
Just to repost some stats for those who are concerned at the type of football we might be seeing, here are the figures for 70% of the games he's managed so far in his career:
I put it to you that averaging 2.1 goals for a game is unlikely to be the result of boring, attritional football.
Let's get behind him as he builds a side that we can all feel proud of! Hopefully the Board will be a help rather than a hindrance in this regard....
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Brilliant appointment. In Ken we trust
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It's refreshing to hear them talking about looking past the ends of their noses for the first time. Only took 5 years but better late than never.
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Nice to hear them talking about long-term aspirations instead of short term fixes as seems to have been our way of operating for quite some time now. Establishing an identity would be very welcome
Indeed, I'm very pleased to see that Ken has acknowledged that and am intrigued to see what they do to progress it.
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Joe Chapman
@ChapmanJ92
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8m
Valerien becomes the first Albion boss to cost the club a compensation fee since Di Matteo from MK Dons in 2009. Albion have had ten managers since. #wba
10 Free transfers in 12 years !
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Anything about assistants/ backroom staff
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Happy that we've got the deal all sorted.
I like what I read in his first interview piece on the official site. Sounds like there's going to be a shake-up and the players will be learning a new way of playing and will have to improve their fitness and motivation.
About time we had a bit of shape up or ship out (to a degree). Let's hope for a successful few years, at least most fans seem to be behind the appointment so that's a good start :)
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Four year deal that is a long term commitment. We now looking like it is Ken and Val show for the foreseeable future. Looks like the DOF role will be split up among CEO Head Coach Head of Recruitment and Head of Academy at first glance.
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https://twitter.com/henrywinter/status/1408091062170787846
An interview he gave last month but I can't see it all, anyone with a Times account ?
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The 4 year contract will send a message to any prima-donnas at the club who think they can sit around half-bothered waiting for him to get the push.
I personally cannot see a few players fitting into a high tempo, all energy system (Phillips / Sawyers and Zohore for starters)
The rhetoric is good, lets hope he gets off to a good start as that will set the tone for his tenure.
Like his words on young players too
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Welcome Valerian!
4 years deal...Seems the board have a long term plan this time.
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Exciting appointment and well worded statement. I’m optimistic for the season ahead, which is far more than I could say a month ago, or even a week ago.
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Four year deal that is a long term commitment. We now looking like it is Ken and Val show for the foreseeable future. Looks like the DOF role will be split up among CEO Head Coach Head of Recruitment and Head of Academy at first glance.
Yes, I'd say they're adopting a flatter management structure. Good to see the owners are taking a longer term view in building a more robust football club, that will be more attractive to a buyer.
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Athletic have put up an article about him just. They spoke to various people who have worked with him.
To summarize:
Very strong leadership qualities, you would ride into battle for him.
Commands respect. CLear in what he wants and expects.
Understands the game very well from playing days as well as young managerial career.
Plays to his squads strength while pressing and passing
Then the usual about making it unpleasant for anyone to play his teams
Also says will demand a lot from Ken, won't accept complacency from him.
Sounds good to me.
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Welcome to the Albion Valerian and good luck!
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Welcome Valérien, a positive appointment by the sounds of it and what I have researched so far.
Good words from the statement which are the things we want to hear. Lets hope we take the actions to back it up.
Think it's very importnat to get new players in asap so they can learn the tactics. For too long we have waited until end of the window to sign players that need 3/4 weeks to get up to speed.
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Welcome to the new chap whoever he is I've never heard of him which isn't necessarily a bad thing better than the constant manager merry go round, here's hoping.
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Delighted we have a new manager and look as if we are going to try and give him the tools to do the job.
Really pleased with the appointment and the fact that the board seem to be looking forward.
Anybody know if he's bought his own back room staff with him?
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Oh yeah Athletic article also said in true Albion style we tried to get him cheaper than the £2m clause and Barnsley generously offered to let us pay £250k of the £2m on finance which we declined.
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Welcome to Valerien.
I was pleased when we appointed Bilic, a shame for whatever reasons it didn't work out!
I wanted something different to what was on offer on the management roundabout, some of the available options were disappointing to say the least.
We've got something different, the guys got a 4 year contract. We all recognise there is a lot of work to do, let's get behind Valerien and the team and see where we go. A long term plan is needed let's give this guy a chance!
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As one of the 17, I'm delighted he's finally joined us. It seems through pure luck and no little incompetence we've ended up with a very positive appointment and a genuine feel good factor.
Wilder no doubt would have done a good job, but he would have been expensive and probably in conflict with the board over funds. At least now we have made a real commitment to Valerien and therefore he has more time and a great opportunity to enhance his career with us.
It feels to me like the early Megson days. We've under performed last year and the new guy is not going to take any prisoners. At last we'll have the fittest team and will still be fighting in injury time instead if caving in.
However, our squad is still threadbare so patience is required, but overall I'm really excited to see what he does.
Welcome Ishmael
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Athletic have put up an article about him just. They spoke to various people who have worked with him.
To summarize:
Very strong leadership qualities, you would ride into battle for him.
Commands respect. CLear in what he wants and expects.
Understands the game very well from playing days as well as young managerial career.
Plays to his squads strength while pressing and passing
Then the usual about making it unpleasant for anyone to play his teams
Also says will demand a lot from Ken, won't accept complacency from him.
Sounds good to me.
Sounds good to me too. We could do with more dynamism and drive around the place on the playing side, and it looks like we're going to have that in spades. Excellent!
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Sounds good to me too. We could do with more dynamism and drive around the place on the playing side, and it looks like we're going to have that in spades. Excellent!
Indeed mate. I think some have had it far too easy at our club for too long. With the departure of Dowling this is the fresh slate the club/we needed.
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N.B. (to some) his name is "Valerien" (Valérien to be exact) and not "Valerian" (which is a herb)! :D
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I’m a little on the fence because I know so little about him, but I’m far happier than I thought I would be. Some of the options were horrendous.
It’s good to see hear Ken talk about the future I hope it’s not just What we want to hear. The comment on short term decisions seems an obvious dig at Dowling. I also wouldn’t read to much in to a four year deal either. I’d be amazed if there isn’t a clause which means if we are outside the play offs in the championship the deal he can be paid off for a set amount. On the flip side I imagine if a prem club wants him they can take him for a set amount so swings and roundabouts.
Interesting weeks ahead. I expect Mowatt to sign next.
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Wow 4 year contract, our Ken means business, glad to hear of an actual plan that seems to be about to take place.
I like the sound of him and his ideas
I feel positive about this and welcome Val to the Hawthorns, good luck mate.
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To do list:
1) Offer Perreira a ridiculous promotion bonus to stay
2) Tell Sawyers to lose the chewing gum or find another club
3) Get 3 or 4 decent midfielders in
It's either going to be brilliant or complete disaster, can't see this being a boring season
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Oh yeah Athletic article also said in true Albion style we tried to get him cheaper than the £2m clause and Barnsley generously offered to let us pay £250k of the £2m on finance which we declined.
Not wanting to sound negative, but if someone did try to poach him before the 4 years, they would have to pay us compensation, but if we sacked him, we'd have to pay him off for the years on his contract?
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Interesting weeks ahead. I expect Mowatt to sign next.
Mowatt should really be a no-brainer given our existing central midfield "options", and he's aged 26 rather than being over the hill. Let's get him in before someone else signs him - I'm sure Valérien has said as much to Ken!
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Not wanting to sound negative, but if someone did try to poach him before the 4 years, they would have to pay us compensation, but if we sacked him, we'd have to pay him off for the years on his contract?
I'd say you are right Alex. We will have set a release clause in his contract i imagine. If we sack him then we got years of wages to cover.
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Just read the bbc news article and Valérien sounds like a man with a plan. After all the positive noises from Ken I hope that he and the board have the courage to back him, even when it gets a bit rough
I am ok with this appointment, left field but interesting, and what we need to be honest
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I wonder if Ken has mentioned he is just about to sell his two best players yet?
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To do list:
1) Offer Perreira a ridiculous promotion bonus to stay
2) Tell Sawyers to lose the chewing gum or find another club
3) Get 3 or 4 decent midfielders in
It's either going to be brilliant or complete disaster, can't see this being a boring season
Yes. This is his definitely a very high priority. He's bound to know that anyway so I'm talking like a pillock. Anyway, welcome Valerien! I'm really looking forward to a new dawn and finally banishing the awful Pulis era and the affect its had on our reputation and the divisions within the fan base. Happy Baggie!!
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I’m pleased they’ve made a decision. I’ve no idea whether I’m delighted or not because I haven’t a clue whether he’ll be any good.
I do think he has a massive task on his hands. A club that the owners don’t want, and a team that IMO is miles short of being promotion contenders with weaknesses right through the spine front to back.
Good luck mate. You’ll need it.
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https://twitter.com/henrywinter/status/1408091062170787846
An interview he gave last month but I can't see it all, anyone with a Times account ?
Here's some of it:
"Ismaël draws from many of the managers he played for. “Felix Magath was fearless,†he says of his former Bayern coach. “Ottmar Hitzfeld had this feeling for the group [at Bayern]. Thomas Schaaf at Werder Bremen always gave players the feeling they were the best of the world in their position. There are influences but I have found my own way with my own mentality.â€
His players love him. “Because I am real. I was a player, so I understand everything going on in the head of the player. If they are ready to follow my way, I give everything for the player. The first rule is intensity. Without intensity we are average. Intensity to work as a swarm altogether. If one slips we’re all dead. We attack altogether, we defend altogether.
“I create a work ethic for the guys and they push each other. They recognise straight away when a player didn’t run, they’ll say, ‘You have to run.’ They started to develop wining [Oops! Times - dear, dear] mentality.
“They are privileged to be a footballer and they have to respect that. They can reach something great but you have to stay focused for the young player. I say to them, ‘You have to discover your greatness with your responsibility to your performances.’
They are a band of young brothers on a mission, the likes of the emerging Jasper Moon (20), Callum Styles (21), Toby Sibbick (21), Mads Andersen (23), Callum Brittain (23) and Conor Chaplin (24), alongside more experienced players such as Cauley Woodrow (26). “The youngest team in the league, average 23 years old. Unbelievable,†Ismaël says. “The team spirit is incredible. Without that mentality you can’t reach the play-offs in the Championship."
Bienvenue Valerien
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Tweet (https://twitter.com/SteveMadeley78/status/1408096667945951236) from Steve Madeley: "Bit of clarity on a couple of things people have raised. Ismael will be bringing in backroom staff - announcements to follow. And Ismael's Covid quarantine will be completed in time for the start of pre-season training. #WBA"
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Not wanting to sound negative, but if someone did try to poach him before the 4 years, they would have to pay us compensation, but if we sacked him, we'd have to pay him off for the years on his contract?
Yes, that's how it works, big incentive for the club to give him time and having invested in buying him out of the contract we probably had to protect our position with a long contract.
We are in for the long haul here or it get's expensive very expensive.
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Yes, that's how it works, big incentive for the club to give him time and having invested in buying him out of the contract we probably had to protect our position with a long contract.
We are in for the long haul here or it get's expensive very expensive.
Indeed. If you're prepared to pay £2m in compensation then you have to be willing to commit to a lengthy contract and give it time even if there are some dodgy periods. Fasten your seat belts and enjoy the ride!
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To do list:
1) Offer Perreira a ridiculous promotion bonus to stay
2) Tell Sawyers to lose the chewing gum or find another club
3) Get 3 or 4 decent midfielders in
It's either going to be brilliant or complete disaster, can't see this being a boring season
I'm not sure that Ismael will want one player to be on extremely different terms than the rest as by the Times excerpt I posted above he seems to be team focussed. Agree this will not be boring.
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I don't want to get carried away but some of the names and the mess we have gone through as had me in despair, but I think this is a really good positive appointment, well done Ken now just back the man.
I feel like its Christmas.
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Does any one know if he speaks good English because I like to hear the managers ideas and comments on a match whether I agree with them or not.
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Pleased it has been done. Bit odd that he was given a 4 year deal. A 12 month rolling contract would have made more sense. From comments on OS sounds like Ken will be effectively running transfers / acting as DOF alongside him.
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Does any one know if he speaks good English because I like to hear the managers ideas and comments on a match whether I agree with them or not.
From 38 seconds onwards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8fkGpJfZCA
Edit: Also, it'll be better than this now as he's been here for a year practicing
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Happy with the deal. Shows the club must be willing to back him in the market if they’ve given him 4 years.
Glad we have given someone a chance too.
If he signs Mowatt in the next week then thinks will start to look a lot better.
From being resigned to Wagner 2 weeks ago, I’m happy we’ve got Ismael .
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From 38 seconds onwards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8fkGpJfZCA
Edit: Also, it'll be better than this now as he's been here for a year practicing
Here's another interview from May this year, just after Barnsley's first play-off game against Swansea. He sounds a bit like Arsene Wenger, whose voice/accent I do quite like!
Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-5ANFQB7ZE)
For anyone who's unaware, Valérien is 6'3" and stocky - I'm sure few argue with him! On top of that his mother is an Alsation.......as in the Alsace region of France! :D
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Great news, well done to all concerned. Welcome to our club.
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Welcome to The Hawthorns Valérien Ismaël.
Reading his comments and his record as a coach, we can look forward to an exciting time.
Just hope he is backed properly by Lai and the board.
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Welcome Valerien Ishmael now get Lai to release purse strings and get us back where we belong ;D
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Very pleased, delighted in fact. If it doesn't work out then so be it but at least the club have put foundations in for a long-term plan and acknowledged some of the mistakes of the past. Invest in permanent you g promising players with a Manager that is hungry with his best years ahead. Add some investment to the club Infrastructure wherever possible and that is all a club like ours can really do. If the leadership commit to this which seems to be the intent following today then I will not criticise the club at all if the project should fail.
It's been a huge few weeks for the club, and I can't believe the luck we've had in losing Dowling followed by the appointment of a promising and hungry manager. Wagner would have been a collosal mistake and McInnes and Co were not the solutions. I feel similar to when Bilic took us on and at the time felt so very lucky Alex Bloody Neil had the cheek to turn us down. Its those types of Manager that turn fans away from a club. Whilst bosses such as Megson Moore Bilic and now hopefully Ismael get the fans proud and in stands each week.
I have been really disappointed at the standard of coverage on Albion. When the likes of Joe Masi defended Dowling it must only be because they were one of the few individuals that offered access and some (clearly limited) inside knowledge. Dowling has been awful and a truly mediocre professional. The club have got away with so much and the lack of scrutiny and quality in covering such an important period has remained ddisappointing from journalists with an actual brief to cover the Albion. When you have the likes of Goldberg and Lepkowski leading the narrative in their own voluntary time you just know standards have been low for too long. I can include fans such as myself when considering the lowering of expectations I have had on where the club could progress to. I have a feeling this Manager will expect more and not just from players but from senior management and possibly both the media and fans too.
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Welcome to big Val, hopefully the club can target the right players to play his football.
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Here's another interview from May this year, just after Barnsley's first play-off game against Swansea. He sounds a bit like Arsene Wenger, whose voice/accent I do quite like!
Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-5ANFQB7ZE)
For anyone who's unaware, Valérien is 6'3" and stocky - I'm sure few argue with him! On top of that his mother is an Alsation.......as in the Alsace region of France! :D
Wenger comes from the Alsace region which would explain his accent.
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Delighted we have a new manager and look as if we are going to try and give him the tools to do the job.
Really pleased with the appointment and the fact that the board seem to be looking forward.
Anybody know if he's bought his own back room staff with him?
It's been inferred during negotiations that he is bringing people with him - no names or confirmation as yet.
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Have warmed to this over the last week or so.
However I watched the two play-off games and Barnsley were appalling. Just basically hoofed the ball from the back to the front. That won't wash with our purists unless of course we are top/2nd from early doors.
Mowatt looks a potentially good signing on a Bosman, having watched his highlights I was surprised how good he was, his dribbling and passing skills and weighs in with a few goals.
He generally plays a 3-4-3 without a specific defensive midfielder so I doubt we'll pursue Yokuslu now.
Johnstone or Palmer in goal.
Ajayi - Bartley - O'Shea with Kipre competing and maybe Bryan if he signs.
You would think Furlong/Townsend/Snodgrass and Phillips would compete for the two wide roles in the 4 with.
We need to sign two central midfielders who are mobile. So Mowatt if he signs and A N Other. Maybe Hamer or Longstaff. Can't see Livermore and Sawyers having the legs for Val.
Then we have Pereira if he stays (if not we'll need to replace him) Robinson, Grant, Diang and a new striker - maybe a Diagne type competing for the front 3.
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Very exciting news!!
Welcome to the club Valerien...
Great to see such positivity in everything surrounding this - the length of deal, what sounds like a commitment to a playing style, and the general levels of support, including on here.
At last I'm really excited for the new season after months of blah.
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Very pleased, delighted in fact. If it doesn't work out then so be it but at least the club have put foundations in for a long-term plan and acknowledged some of the mistakes of the past. Invest in permanent you g promising players with a Manager that is hungry with his best years ahead. Add some investment to the club Infrastructure wherever possible and that is all a club like ours can really do. If the leadership commit to this which seems to be the intent following today then I will not criticise the club at all if the project should fail.
It's been a huge few weeks for the club, and I can't believe the luck we've had in losing Dowling followed by the appointment of a promising and hungry manager. Wagner would have been a collosal mistake and McInnes and Co were not the solutions. I feel similar to when Bilic took us on and at the time felt so very lucky Alex Bloody Neil had the cheek to turn us down. Its those types of Manager that turn fans away from a club. Whilst bosses such as Megson Moore Bilic and now hopefully Ismael get the fans proud and in stands each week.
I have been really disappointed at the standard of coverage on Albion. When the likes of Joe Masi defended Dowling it must only be because they were one of the few individuals that offered access and some (clearly limited) inside knowledge. Dowling has been awful and a truly mediocre professional. The club have got away with so much and the lack of scrutiny and quality in covering such an important period has remained ddisappointing from journalists with an actual brief to cover the Albion. When you have the likes of Goldberg and Lepkowski leading the narrative in their own voluntary time you just know standards have been low for too long. I can include fans such as myself when considering the lowering of expectations I have had on where the club could progress to. I have a feeling this Manager will expect more and not just from players but from senior management and possibly both the media and fans too.
No luck re Dowling and Ismael. Leadership and decisiveness from Ken. Long may it continue.
I hope the project includes a 2nd tier on the Halfords!
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I really don’t want to pour any cold water on some of the excited optimism - we deserve a bit of relief after the past 18 months of poor football and COVID.
After 50 years of watching I’ve seen a lot happen and dozens of managers (32 not counting caretakers and three people we appointed twice!), so forgive me for saying that I’d prefer to wait for the essential signings to give us a chance and the subsequent results before getting too excited about yet another new coach. It could all end in tears and statistically he’s extremely unlikely to see out a four year contract (even though I like the idea of some stability it will always depend on results. Lose too many games and he goes, whatever the contract).
I hope as much as everyone else he’s a huge success and the goodwill he brings lifts us all. It’s desperately needed. But I’m not getting carried away - I’ve been disappointed too often. At least it numbs some of the pain if you don’t expect quite so much. But there’s a massive amount to do - we got 26 points last season.
Good luck Valerian. I have a feeling you’ll need it. We all wish you well!
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Ajayi - Bartley - O'Shea with Kipre competing and maybe Bryan if he signs.
Joe Bryan? is he rumoured?
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Joe Bryan? is he rumoured?
Kean Bryan Sheffield United
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Kean Bryan Sheffield United
Ahhh, thank you Aztech!
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It's been a fabulous couple of weeks for the club let's be honest. Dowling out the door was an enormous boon. Ken seems switched on and decisive and has made a very astute appointment and he's invested heavily in his man.
I never wanted Wilder, I was crestfallen by Wagner and with LD in situ fully expected a Neil or McInnes as fallback. That would have set us back years imo.
I'm a very happy Baggie 😊
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It's been a fabulous couple of weeks for the club let's be honest. Dowling out the door was an enormous boon. Ken seems switched on and decisive and has made a very astute appointment and he's invested heavily in his man.
I never wanted Wilder, I was crestfallen by Wagner and with LD in situ fully expected a Neil or McInnes as fallback. That would have set us back years imo.
I'm a very happy Baggie 😊
I'll get back to you after our summer player recruitment.
Much Ieft to do...
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It's been a fabulous couple of weeks for the club let's be honest. Dowling out the door was an enormous boon. Ken seems switched on and decisive and has made a very astute appointment and he's invested heavily in his man.
I never wanted Wilder, I was crestfallen by Wagner and with LD in situ fully expected a Neil or McInnes as fallback. That would have set us back years imo.
I'm a very happy Baggie 😊
I have to agree with you here mate.
I feel exactly the same way!
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Possibly the most underwhelming managerial appointment for a very long time
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Possibly the most underwhelming managerial appointment for a very long time
It might go horribly wrong, but I don't think there will be anything underwhelming about his time here!
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Pleased it has been done. Bit odd that he was given a 4 year deal. A 12 month rolling contract would have made more sense. From comments on OS sounds like Ken will be effectively running transfers / acting as DOF alongside him.
I'm not sure many coaches would come to Albion on a rolling 12month contract. A 4 year deal; although unusual for Albion; is a sign of support and wanting a long term appointment. 12 month contracts with this club IMO would discourage a lot of coaches.
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Possibly the most underwhelming managerial appointment for a very long time
Really ? Please explain why.
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I'll get back to you after our summer player recruitment.
Much Ieft to do...
That’s my feeling. He needs the players to do a job. All managers do.
He hasn’t got them at the moment. Not by a long way.
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Possibly the most underwhelming managerial appointment for a very long time
I was underwhelmed with every candidate mentioned ... to be honest I knew very little about Ismael, though from what I've read and heard I'm optimistic.
Out of interest, who would you not have been underwhelmed by ?
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Possibly the most underwhelming managerial appointment for a very long time
Underwhelming? We've just paid £2m for a guy who took Barnsley from the brink of League 1 to the brink of the Prem. This is a club who have appointed Alan Irvine, Alan Pardew, Tony Pulis and were looking at David Wagner and Alex Neil a few weeks ago.
For the first time in a long time I'm not embarrassed by the decision making at the club.
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Not disappointed by this. Definitely not an underwhelming appointment. It may not succeed but seems to be what we need, so all the very best of luck Valérien Ismaël, welcome to WBA.
Lots of work to be done, and not sure if you will be given the resources, or that some of our support and leadership will have the patience to allow the unavoidable mistakes in the longer term rebuild.
Really hope this is just what it appears to be, and is the beginning of a more enlightened and extended period of success for our club. COYB
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Possibly the most underwhelming managerial appointment for a very long time
We've tried the overwhelming candidates and ended up where we are today.
We're trying a new, and frankly a very welcome, new approach.
We've had the Pulis's, the Pardew's, Irvine's, Allardyce's, the old and what we thought was safe options.
We needed to change direction, we've done that. Lets just support the bloke and see where we go.
There's a lot to be done to turn this mess around.
The club are making the right noises, now they need to walk the walk.
I for one am really looking forward to what this guy can do with a few clever additions to this squad.
Roll on 7th August.
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Who's the last manager that lasted 4 years?
It's different that's for sure, could be a disaster or a masterstroke, I'll sit back and enjoy the ride and hopefully it's an enjoyable one.
Nice to hear talk about long term plans for the club rather short term fixes that get us nowhere.
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Welcome to The Hawthorns, Valérien. I’m sure it was my vote that started the ball rolling. :P
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Definatley a change in tack. Slaven got only a two yeat contract, looks like this is more of a long term appointment.
Paying Barnsley the compo fee over 4 years probably like Grant and Huddersfield
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We've tried the overwhelming candidates and ended up where we are today.
We're trying a new, and frankly a very welcome, new approach.
We've had the Pulis's, the Pardew's, Irvine's, Allardyce's, the old and what we thought was safe options.
We needed to change direction, we've done that. Lets just support the bloke and see where we go.
There's a lot to be done to turn this mess around.
The club are making the right noises, now they need to walk the walk.
I for one am really looking forward to what this guy can do with a few clever additions to this squad.
Roll on 7th August.
Let's just hope we equip the Latest with the tools to do the job otherwise, despite the wel written and thought out posts, like your own, then what's the point?
A gamble but one that I'm happy to see over the likes of a few of our targets.
Now. Players! Let's see what happens...
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https://twitter.com/henrywinter/status/1408091062170787846
An interview he gave last month but I can't see it all, anyone with a Times account ?
HENRY WINTER | VALÉRIEN ISMAËL INTERVIEW
‘My first rule is intensity, to work as a swarm – if one slips, we’re all dead’
Henry Winter meets Valérien Ismaël, whose Barnsley side have been the surprise package of the Championship season and are aiming for a Premier League place via the play-offs
Ismaël joined Barnsley from Austrian side LASK in October and has taken them from 21st in the Championship to the play-offs
Ismaël joined Barnsley from Austrian side LASK in October and has taken them from 21st in the Championship to the play-offs
MARK ROBINSON FOR THE TIMES
Henry Winter
, Chief Football Writer
Friday May 07 2021, 5.00pm, The Times
One of the most remarkable managerial achievements of the season has unfolded at Barnsley. Valérien Ismaël has guided the youngest side in the Sky Bet Championship — whose most recent starting XI cost only £5 million to assemble — from 21st when he arrived in October to a play-off place. Ismaël’s team play high-octane, quick-pressing football, and only Thomas Tuchel’s half-time tactical and personnel changes at Oakwell kept Chelsea in the FA Cup after their fifth-round meeting.
The MP for Barnsley Central, Dan Jarvis, sent Ismaël a letter congratulating him on being a real tonic to the town during the Covid pandemic. “Many have suffered greatly here but the fantastic performance of the team has provided light in the dark,†Jarvis wrote. Ismaël is beginning to appreciate the impact more as restrictions lift. “I can meet more people now,†he says. “I feel their pride. I see on social media what’s going on but it’s not the same feeling as when you meet the people, and see the pride in their eyes.
“Last week I was in Marks & Spencer and two old ladies came to me and said, ‘Thank you for all the good things.’ They were really polite, asked for an autograph. They were really proud to see what the boys give on the pitch.
“The feeling was great for me, the feeling that we are on the right way here to give pride to people in a tough time. People recognise that it’s not just because we won the game but the way we play. The boys give everything, and this is what people love. Even if we don’t win they recognise the energy, intensity and hard work, and they say, ‘OK, we stay with you.’
“We have such an emotional connection with the fans. Our fans being back will be massive. They will set more energy free in the players. They want to see the players play with courage and heart. This is my way. A few teams can dominate the opponent in possession. My team can dominate the opponent with physicality, with intensity.
“I’m proud of what we’ve done so far and this story is a contrast to the [European] Super League. Barnsley’s story is about having the chance to compete and deserve to be where we are because we give everything. It is the underdog mentality.
“The Super League was just about the elite, to play among themselves and ‘We don’t want to have anyone else with us’, just about the big money. But this is not the real story of football. The story of football is competition. The truth is on the pitch all the time. Everything is possible. We feel we’ve given people hope back and the vision that times will be better.â€
He knows the pressure on communities during the pandemic. “Friends of mine lost their jobs, they work in restaurants and have to close the restaurant. So we have to help each other. We try with my family to help people where we can. My family’s still in Munich. I miss them. January and February were really hard with the new mutations, they close everything, and we were five weeks apart from each other.
“I’m in England, and try to help where I can, speak to people, make donations.†Ismaël even gave £200 to a local brass band at risk of falling silent. “I do it to help, to give the people hope. And I do this with heart.
“People in Barnsley work hard. There was so much snow one day on the training pitch and everyone at the club worked to clear the park for the players. That showed me, ‘This is Barnsley.’ It was good for the players to see that, and after that you respect the staff even more.
“The passion for football in this country is unbelievable. I’m even more aware of that after the Super League. You see how powerful football is with the fans. It’s something special. I never felt that anywhere else, even in Germany or France. It’s a big, big passion as well there but here it’s not a passion, it’s a life. It’s all about football here.â€
So how did Ismaël get here? It’s quite a story. Now 45, he was born in Strasbourg, his father from Guadeloupe and his mother from Alsace. “My father was in the army, and my mother worked as a secretary in an insurance company,†he recalls. “My parents divorced when I was three. The values [he was taught] were wake up early, work hard, work again and don’t be satisfied. My drive started in my childhood.
“It was not easy. I grew up with racism. The racism was direct to me, at school, the area I lived, everywhere. It was all the time, especially a game with other opponents was worse. I developed something special to fight against the racism. Sometimes I fought back physically. For sure, at school. I had to show my strong mentality and fight but the best way is to become someone in life, to reach something that your family is proud of, and to show everything is possible.
“I developed a stronger mentality because I knew I had to do more than the other boys to be recognised. I was not the best player at that time, but my mentality was my strength. Every time I came through problems it was through my mentality.â€
Ismaël knows many black coaches watch him, willing him to succeed. “If I can inspire some coaches then I’m very glad about that,†he says. “It drives me. It’s more about equality, that everyone can have the chance to be a manager. You then have to take your chance.
He agrees with last weekend’s “important†social media boycott, to encourage companies to act against online abuse, but with a caveat. “You need to do this consistently, not just to make [campaigns] one or two days a year,†he says. “English football now understands that the fight against racism won’t be finished tomorrow. It will take a long, long time. The first part is education.â€
Having emerged at local grassroots club Holtzheim, near Strasbourg airport, Ismaël’s playing career took off at Racing Strasbourg. Crystal Palace came calling in January 1998, making the tall centre back their record signing at the time, for £2.75 million. His introduction was painful, encountering Robbie Savage, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink and Vinnie Jones in the first three of his 16 games for Palace.
“It was always my dream to play in England,†he recalls. “It was unfortunately a difficult experience. I was 22. It was too early. It was the first time away from home, without family, without friends. I tried to give my best. Maybe if it was summer transfer it would have been much easier for me to integrate, find a house, do pre-season, adapt. I then got injured.â€
He was sold to Lens, for £1.3 million, and rebuilt his career, returning to Strasbourg, then on to Double glory at both Werder Bremen and Bayern Munich. “The only thing I didn’t reach in my career was to play for my country,†he reflects. “I played in Les Espoirs [France Under-21, in 1996 and 1997] with Thierry Henry, Patrick Vieira and [David] Trezeguet. I was proud when France won the World Cup [in 1998]. I was in England, injured, on my couch, with my knee up, after the surgery.â€
As he established himself more, Ismaël felt France would beckon when Raymond Domenech, his coach with Les Espoirs, was promoted to the senior role in 2004. “He said he wanted to try every player, young players, and I was a champion with Bremen, so I thought, ‘OK now, this is the ticket to have the chance to play for my country.’ But I never got the chance to show that. It was a shame for me.â€
That drive simply transferred itself to his managerial career, taking him from Hannover to Nuremberg, Wolfsburg and Apollon Smyrnis in Greece, before he led the Austrian side LASK to the round of 16 of the Europa League last season, where they were knocked out by Manchester United.
Ismaël draws from many of the managers he played for. “Felix Magath was fearless,†he says of his former Bayern coach. “Ottmar Hitzfeld had this feeling for the group [at Bayern]. Thomas Schaaf at Werder Bremen always gave players the feeling they were the best of the world in their position. There are influences but I have found my own way with my own mentality.â€
His players love him. “Because I am real. I was a player, so I understand everything going on in the head of the player. If they are ready to follow my way, I give everything for the player. The first rule is intensity. Without intensity we are average. Intensity to work as a swarm altogether. If one slips we’re all dead. We attack altogether, we defend altogether.
“I create a work ethic for the guys and they push each other. They recognise straight away when a player didn’t run, they’ll say, ‘You have to run.’ They started to develop wining mentality.
“They are privileged to be a footballer and they have to respect that. They can reach something great but you have to stay focused for the young player. I say to them, ‘You have to discover your greatness with your responsibility to your performances.’
They are a band of young brothers on a mission, the likes of the emerging Jasper Moon (20), Callum Styles (21), Toby Sibbick (21), Mads Andersen (23), Callum Brittain (23) and Conor Chaplin (24), alongside more experienced players such as Cauley Woodrow (26). “The youngest team in the league, average 23 years old. Unbelievable,†Ismaël says. “The team spirit is incredible. Without that mentality you can’t reach the play-offs in the Championship.
“Even a world-class team like Chelsea had problems with our intensity. I said to the players, ‘If you can do this against Chelsea then you can do this against anyone in the Championship.’ It was a game-changer for us. We stayed focused on our game, not on the name of the shirt.
“Yes, we respect Chelsea. Yes, we know they are the better team but we have our principles. We saw after the first half they changed. We forced that. It was the first time the players realise it is worth giving everything because we are so close to beating Chelsea.†After their narrow defeat by the Premier League club, Barnsley won their next seven games.
“The hunger to win drives me,†Ismaël says. “That’s why I wake up in the morning, to do my job, to win, but the good thing is when I win, I want to know why I win. In football, you can have a lucky day and win but to win consistently means you need to have a plan. Every manager has his philosophy. Pep Guardiola has one philosophy, Jürgen Klopp has one, José Mourinho has one, but they have the same thing in common, they are winners. This is what we want to reach, to win with consistency.â€
This weekend brings the hardest test in the Championship, Norwich City, and Ismaël will be pushing Barnsley to maintain their momentum. “My players are aware of my mentality: ‘Don’t be satisfied.’ I said to them, ‘This season could be special, you have to believe and keep the momentum going.’ We have to give everything.â€
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Good luck Val, give us joy on the pitch and off the Valium.
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Really pleased by the appointment. Was surprised by the 4 year contract but it does show that we are planning for the future (to a degree).
Looking forward to how the season unfolds.
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He certainly talks the talk and I like what he says. I only hope he is given sufficient time and resources. I’m actually quite excited to see what he brings to the team !
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Really pleased by the appointment. Was surprised by the 4 year contract but it does show that we are planning for the future (to a degree).
Looking forward to how the season unfolds.
Same here, pleased with the appointment but pretty shocked by the 4 year contract to be honest, just hope it doesn't come back to bite us.
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Possibly the most underwhelming managerial appointment for a very long time
Underwhelming?
That's when you don't look further than your own training ground and appoint an assistant coach who's had no experience of being the manager. That's underwhelming and cheap.
At least the club has shelled out on a manager who has had some success in the league we are in this season.
I don't know how this is going to turn out and I have expressed some doubts on this board but I'm just relieved we have gone out and engaged a manager instead of scratching around for a cheap option.
We need to get behind the club and the manager now.
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Can't remember a signing, of any sort, that has united the board as much as this. It's doomed I tell ya. ;)
Really happy on all aspects of this. firstly the man himself, seems like a good fit for our club, likes to bring everyone together with an all for one, one for all, mentality which should go down well when we get back in the ground. Secondly the length of contract, makes a statement of intent to at least try and build something long term and, thirdly, Ken! A lot of people thought he was just a freeloader who knew nothing about football and maybe the canteen staff were better placed to pick the new manager. Well it appears that there's more to him than meets the eye, so that's another positive. If he keeps going like this he'll need his own song. 8)
Could the stars be aligning on a new dawn? :)
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Have warmed to this over the last week or so.
However I watched the two play-off games and Barnsley were appalling. Just basically hoofed the ball from the back to the front. That won't wash with our purists unless of course we are top/2nd from early doors.
Mowatt looks a potentially good signing on a Bosman, having watched his highlights I was surprised how good he was, his dribbling and passing skills and weighs in with a few goals.
He generally plays a 3-4-3 without a specific defensive midfielder so I doubt we'll pursue Yokuslu now.
Johnstone or Palmer in goal.
Ajayi - Bartley - O'Shea with Kipre competing and maybe Bryan if he signs.
You would think Furlong/Townsend/Snodgrass and Phillips would compete for the two wide roles in the 4 with.
We need to sign two central midfielders who are mobile. So Mowatt if he signs and A N Other. Maybe Hamer or Longstaff. Can't see Livermore and Sawyers having the legs for Val.
Then we have Pereira if he stays (if not we'll need to replace him) Robinson, Grant, Diang and a new striker - maybe a Diagne type competing for the front 3.
This is the thing that concerns me to be honest. Whilst I am happy with this appointment, if things go to plan and we are at the top of the league from the start then everything will be fine. However, if we start to have a run of indifferent results then the 'long ball' tactic will very quickly come to the fore.
I am quite pleased with this appointment as it is a risk, it feels good and it is not from the usual list of 'also rans' currently doing the rounds looking for jobs. I would like to think that VI will have a better quality of player to bring in [as well as the ones who are already here], and when the going gets tough he does have a plan B and C.
Overall pretty happy and now looking forward to renewing my two STs'.
Good luck Valerien!
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According to Alan Nixon, Palace were keen on him:
Alan Nixon
@reluctantnicko
·
10m
Ismael was … until they decided to go sexy instead. Hey ho.
Quote Tweet
Joe
@Joe57535191
· 16m
Replying to @reluctantnicko
What about Steve Cooper? Seemed a front runner at the start then faded
https://twitter.com/reluctantnicko/status/1408337675069931521
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On reflection this is the appointment I hoped for from the outset. It is the appointment that we should have made across the last 6 appointments. I don't mean specifically Valérien Ismaël but the type of coach he is and a coach at this stage of his career.
He has a clear style of play and it is a progressive one. He has experience as coach roughly 10 years to date but has more of a career in front of him than behind him. He is first and foremost a training ground coach and works with players not only as a group but improves them individually. To some extent he is a long term appointment and Ken's comments on the club focussing too much on what is right in front of us might prove to be a watershed moment (only if backed up by actions)
Let's deal with the thorny issue of compensation and contract length. Or the first steps along a different path. A 4 year contract does show a commitment and intent. To some degree it follows on from the initial investment in buying out Ismael's contract with Barnsley we need to protect that investment.
I don't think it is a good appointment because we have paid compensation to get him. I will never ascribe to the "showing ambition" school of thought i.e. the move was ill considered but it cost the club a bunch of money so at least it showed ambition. Show me joined up thinking even if it is cheap joined up thinking rather than flashy ambition with no substance.
When we could recruit freely from Europe there was never any need to pay compensation for a Head Coach because the pool was vast and there were always good coaches available (it's not the pools fault we didn't hire them). The restrictions on recruitment we face as a Championship club are such that the dynamic has changed and I think we should credit the club for realising that and acting accordingly. For those who still wish to criticise the club for being "cheap" I will point out that while Ismael cost £2m Steve Cooper might have been available for £4m so Ismael is still the cheap option.
I am delighted with the appointment but I will add a note of caution. This is long term and as such patience will be required the squad will be learning a whole new style of play and there will be player churn so I suspect it will be slow burn in the first season we won't really hit our stride until Christmas.
However I am genuinely looking forward to a new beginning.
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Possibly the most underwhelming managerial appointment for a very long time
Pardew. Mel. Irvine.
All far more underwhelming than Ismael.
We've given a young, continental, up-and-coming coach with a clear and successful playing philosophy a four year contract.
If you're underwhelmed, I'd be curious who you think would be the appointment that would get you excited?
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Just hope that the fans remember that for his style to work it will take some time (especially with how unfit some of our players appear to be).
I don't expect to be promoted this season but I just want to see improvements in the work ethic and the way the players conduct themselves.
I was worried at the end of last season we would be sucked into another relegation battle. I have moved away from that thought and now very much optimistic.
I just wished we could have gotten this sorted a few weeks ago, but it is what it is.
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HENRY WINTER | VALÉRIEN ISMAËL INTERVIEW
‘My first rule is intensity, to work as a swarm – if one slips, we’re all dead’
Henry Winter meets Valérien Ismaël, whose Barnsley side have been the surprise package of the Championship season and are aiming for a Premier League place via the play-offs
Ismaël joined Barnsley from Austrian side LASK in October and has taken them from 21st in the Championship to the play-offs
Ismaël joined Barnsley from Austrian side LASK in October and has taken them from 21st in the Championship to the play-offs
MARK ROBINSON FOR THE TIMES
Henry Winter
, Chief Football Writer
Friday May 07 2021, 5.00pm, The Times
One of the most remarkable managerial achievements of the season has unfolded at Barnsley. Valérien Ismaël has guided the youngest side in the Sky Bet Championship — whose most recent starting XI cost only £5 million to assemble — from 21st when he arrived in October to a play-off place. Ismaël’s team play high-octane, quick-pressing football, and only Thomas Tuchel’s half-time tactical and personnel changes at Oakwell kept Chelsea in the FA Cup after their fifth-round meeting.
The MP for Barnsley Central, Dan Jarvis, sent Ismaël a letter congratulating him on being a real tonic to the town during the Covid pandemic. “Many have suffered greatly here but the fantastic performance of the team has provided light in the dark,†Jarvis wrote. Ismaël is beginning to appreciate the impact more as restrictions lift. “I can meet more people now,†he says. “I feel their pride. I see on social media what’s going on but it’s not the same feeling as when you meet the people, and see the pride in their eyes.
“Last week I was in Marks & Spencer and two old ladies came to me and said, ‘Thank you for all the good things.’ They were really polite, asked for an autograph. They were really proud to see what the boys give on the pitch.
“The feeling was great for me, the feeling that we are on the right way here to give pride to people in a tough time. People recognise that it’s not just because we won the game but the way we play. The boys give everything, and this is what people love. Even if we don’t win they recognise the energy, intensity and hard work, and they say, ‘OK, we stay with you.’
“We have such an emotional connection with the fans. Our fans being back will be massive. They will set more energy free in the players. They want to see the players play with courage and heart. This is my way. A few teams can dominate the opponent in possession. My team can dominate the opponent with physicality, with intensity.
“I’m proud of what we’ve done so far and this story is a contrast to the [European] Super League. Barnsley’s story is about having the chance to compete and deserve to be where we are because we give everything. It is the underdog mentality.
“The Super League was just about the elite, to play among themselves and ‘We don’t want to have anyone else with us’, just about the big money. But this is not the real story of football. The story of football is competition. The truth is on the pitch all the time. Everything is possible. We feel we’ve given people hope back and the vision that times will be better.â€
He knows the pressure on communities during the pandemic. “Friends of mine lost their jobs, they work in restaurants and have to close the restaurant. So we have to help each other. We try with my family to help people where we can. My family’s still in Munich. I miss them. January and February were really hard with the new mutations, they close everything, and we were five weeks apart from each other.
“I’m in England, and try to help where I can, speak to people, make donations.†Ismaël even gave £200 to a local brass band at risk of falling silent. “I do it to help, to give the people hope. And I do this with heart.
“People in Barnsley work hard. There was so much snow one day on the training pitch and everyone at the club worked to clear the park for the players. That showed me, ‘This is Barnsley.’ It was good for the players to see that, and after that you respect the staff even more.
“The passion for football in this country is unbelievable. I’m even more aware of that after the Super League. You see how powerful football is with the fans. It’s something special. I never felt that anywhere else, even in Germany or France. It’s a big, big passion as well there but here it’s not a passion, it’s a life. It’s all about football here.â€
So how did Ismaël get here? It’s quite a story. Now 45, he was born in Strasbourg, his father from Guadeloupe and his mother from Alsace. “My father was in the army, and my mother worked as a secretary in an insurance company,†he recalls. “My parents divorced when I was three. The values [he was taught] were wake up early, work hard, work again and don’t be satisfied. My drive started in my childhood.
“It was not easy. I grew up with racism. The racism was direct to me, at school, the area I lived, everywhere. It was all the time, especially a game with other opponents was worse. I developed something special to fight against the racism. Sometimes I fought back physically. For sure, at school. I had to show my strong mentality and fight but the best way is to become someone in life, to reach something that your family is proud of, and to show everything is possible.
“I developed a stronger mentality because I knew I had to do more than the other boys to be recognised. I was not the best player at that time, but my mentality was my strength. Every time I came through problems it was through my mentality.â€
Ismaël knows many black coaches watch him, willing him to succeed. “If I can inspire some coaches then I’m very glad about that,†he says. “It drives me. It’s more about equality, that everyone can have the chance to be a manager. You then have to take your chance.
He agrees with last weekend’s “important†social media boycott, to encourage companies to act against online abuse, but with a caveat. “You need to do this consistently, not just to make [campaigns] one or two days a year,†he says. “English football now understands that the fight against racism won’t be finished tomorrow. It will take a long, long time. The first part is education.â€
Having emerged at local grassroots club Holtzheim, near Strasbourg airport, Ismaël’s playing career took off at Racing Strasbourg. Crystal Palace came calling in January 1998, making the tall centre back their record signing at the time, for £2.75 million. His introduction was painful, encountering Robbie Savage, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink and Vinnie Jones in the first three of his 16 games for Palace.
“It was always my dream to play in England,†he recalls. “It was unfortunately a difficult experience. I was 22. It was too early. It was the first time away from home, without family, without friends. I tried to give my best. Maybe if it was summer transfer it would have been much easier for me to integrate, find a house, do pre-season, adapt. I then got injured.â€
He was sold to Lens, for £1.3 million, and rebuilt his career, returning to Strasbourg, then on to Double glory at both Werder Bremen and Bayern Munich. “The only thing I didn’t reach in my career was to play for my country,†he reflects. “I played in Les Espoirs [France Under-21, in 1996 and 1997] with Thierry Henry, Patrick Vieira and [David] Trezeguet. I was proud when France won the World Cup [in 1998]. I was in England, injured, on my couch, with my knee up, after the surgery.â€
As he established himself more, Ismaël felt France would beckon when Raymond Domenech, his coach with Les Espoirs, was promoted to the senior role in 2004. “He said he wanted to try every player, young players, and I was a champion with Bremen, so I thought, ‘OK now, this is the ticket to have the chance to play for my country.’ But I never got the chance to show that. It was a shame for me.â€
That drive simply transferred itself to his managerial career, taking him from Hannover to Nuremberg, Wolfsburg and Apollon Smyrnis in Greece, before he led the Austrian side LASK to the round of 16 of the Europa League last season, where they were knocked out by Manchester United.
Ismaël draws from many of the managers he played for. “Felix Magath was fearless,†he says of his former Bayern coach. “Ottmar Hitzfeld had this feeling for the group [at Bayern]. Thomas Schaaf at Werder Bremen always gave players the feeling they were the best of the world in their position. There are influences but I have found my own way with my own mentality.â€
His players love him. “Because I am real. I was a player, so I understand everything going on in the head of the player. If they are ready to follow my way, I give everything for the player. The first rule is intensity. Without intensity we are average. Intensity to work as a swarm altogether. If one slips we’re all dead. We attack altogether, we defend altogether.
“I create a work ethic for the guys and they push each other. They recognise straight away when a player didn’t run, they’ll say, ‘You have to run.’ They started to develop wining mentality.
“They are privileged to be a footballer and they have to respect that. They can reach something great but you have to stay focused for the young player. I say to them, ‘You have to discover your greatness with your responsibility to your performances.’
They are a band of young brothers on a mission, the likes of the emerging Jasper Moon (20), Callum Styles (21), Toby Sibbick (21), Mads Andersen (23), Callum Brittain (23) and Conor Chaplin (24), alongside more experienced players such as Cauley Woodrow (26). “The youngest team in the league, average 23 years old. Unbelievable,†Ismaël says. “The team spirit is incredible. Without that mentality you can’t reach the play-offs in the Championship.
“Even a world-class team like Chelsea had problems with our intensity. I said to the players, ‘If you can do this against Chelsea then you can do this against anyone in the Championship.’ It was a game-changer for us. We stayed focused on our game, not on the name of the shirt.
“Yes, we respect Chelsea. Yes, we know they are the better team but we have our principles. We saw after the first half they changed. We forced that. It was the first time the players realise it is worth giving everything because we are so close to beating Chelsea.†After their narrow defeat by the Premier League club, Barnsley won their next seven games.
“The hunger to win drives me,†Ismaël says. “That’s why I wake up in the morning, to do my job, to win, but the good thing is when I win, I want to know why I win. In football, you can have a lucky day and win but to win consistently means you need to have a plan. Every manager has his philosophy. Pep Guardiola has one philosophy, Jürgen Klopp has one, José Mourinho has one, but they have the same thing in common, they are winners. This is what we want to reach, to win with consistency.â€
This weekend brings the hardest test in the Championship, Norwich City, and Ismaël will be pushing Barnsley to maintain their momentum. “My players are aware of my mentality: ‘Don’t be satisfied.’ I said to them, ‘This season could be special, you have to believe and keep the momentum going.’ We have to give everything.â€
Cheers for the info. An interesting read.
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Just hope that the fans remember that for his style to work it will take some time (especially with how unfit some of our players appear to be).
I don't expect to be promoted this season but I just want to see improvements in the work ethic and the way the players conduct themselves.
I was worried at the end of last season we would be sucked into another relegation battle. I have moved away from that thought and now very much optimistic.
I just wished we could have gotten this sorted a few weeks ago, but it is what it is.
If he had followed Bilic then It would have been a major concern, Allardyce did address it to a point though so don't expect major issues.
I imagine, and hope, that he will give everyone a chance to prove their suitability and, you never know, some that we wouldn't expect may really step up. On the face of it though, there are a few where that would seem unlikely.
I have a sneaky feeling, he may take a look at Zohore. He has the physicality and pace. If he can add the right mentality and stamina, who knows.
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If he had followed Bilic then It would have been a major concern, Allardyce did address it to a point though so don't expect major issues.
I imagine, and hope, that he will give everyone a chance to prove their suitability and, you never know, some that we wouldn't expect may really step up. On the face of it though, there are a few where that would seem unlikely.
I have a sneaky feeling, he may take a look at Zohore. He has the physicality and pace. If he can add the right mentality and stamina, who knows.
if he can't recognise a donkey then we are screwed, Zohore hopefully will be moved on by Valerien.
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I think the litmus test of a good coach is taking the players he inherits even those largely discarded by his predecessors and getting the most out of them while they are under contract to the club. That is not to say that everybody will fit in and that there won't be some player churn this summer but as a modus operandi we have to move away from the bomb squad mentality and using it as a way of managing the group as a whole.
Maybe he doesn't get a tune out of Zohore but it would be really helpful if he could get him up to the 3rd striker rotation level. That is better for us and the player rather paying him to leave to God knows where.
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I think the litmus test of a good coach is taking the players he inherits even those largely discarded by his predecessors and getting the most out of them while they are under contract to the club. That is not to say that everybody will fit in and that there won't be some player churn this summer but as a modus operandi we have to move away from the bomb squad mentality and using it as a way of managing the group as a whole.
Maybe he doesn't get a tune out of Zohore but it would be really helpful if he could get him up to the 3rd striker rotation level. That is better for us and the player rather paying him to leave to God knows where.
Hopefully he will let every single player on our books know they have a clean slate on Monday. There is a decent player in Harper somewhere and probably in Zohore too. I don't mean he should treat anyone with kid gloves, and from what he's said and done previously I can't see that anyway, and if those two and any others like Sawyers really can't/won't buy into his plans and want away, it should be done with a handshake and as quickly and cleanly as possible so he can get on with his project and get the new faces in.
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Just hope that the fans remember that for his style to work it will take some time (especially with how unfit some of our players appear to be).
I don't expect to be promoted this season but I just want to see improvements in the work ethic and the way the players conduct themselves.
I was worried at the end of last season we would be sucked into another relegation battle. I have moved away from that thought and now very much optimistic.
I just wished we could have gotten this sorted a few weeks ago, but it is what it is.
While I agree with the sentiment re patience. It didn’t take him too long at Barnsley, won 5 and drew 1 of his opening 10 games in charge after they hadn’t won in their first 6.
He is of course due the patience of the fans but make no mistake anything less than top 6 is a failure. He has my full support and I’m excited to see what he can make of us.
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The main unknown factor at present is Pereira, will he still be here? But I have high hopes for Diangana, Robinson, and Grant to step up to the plate big time next season. Looking forward to some entertainment personally to get the shrine rocking again....that will have an enormous impact on players confidence, and confidence can be everything for a footballer.
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The main unknown factor at present is Pereira, will he still be here? Bit I have high hopes for Diangana, Robinson, and Grant to step up to the plate big time next season. Looking forward to some entertainment personally to get the shrine rocking again....that will have an enormous impact on players confidence, and confidence can be everything for a footballer.
I would count our phillips if he want to get on board with the new style of play Valley will bring. One of out better players under Sam.
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1. Dowling gone.
2 A exciting promising young coach brought in.
3. Statement released addressing our recent short sightedness.
4. Looking at bringing in young promising players proven at championship level who could quite possibly make the step up in Mowatt, Longstaff and Wilson.
What a week! It's no coincidence Dowling has gone and we have got ourselves a very good coach and are after players long before their 30s.
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Ismael comment with Henry Winter. “I create a work ethic for the guys and they push each other. They recognise straight away when a player didn’t run, they’ll say, ‘You have to run.’ They started to develop wining mentality."
Well that will scare the sh.. out of Sawyers!
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Wonder when there will be a video interview on the club website and if we have a press conference planned
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Wonder when there will be a video interview on the club website and if we have a press conference planned
He's in quarantine for 10 days.
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He's in quarantine for 10 days.
You would think, in this day and age, that there would be a way to communicate face to face with each other. 🤔
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Apparently he’ll be with the team for when they return. You can pay for a 5 day release test so I imagine the club will fork out the £50 for it!
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Apparently he’ll be with the team for when they return. You can pay for a 5 day release test so I imagine the club will fork out the £50 for it!
What? Another £50 on top of £2,000,000 compensation and a four year contract? At the Albion? Wow! The times they are a changing.......
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Apparently he’ll be with the team for when they return. You can pay for a 5 day release test so I imagine the club will fork out the £50 for it!
Loving the confidence you have in the board! ;D
Nah ,i read the same he will be there to take day 1 of pre-season.
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A big warm welcome Valerien. Seriously thinking about a pair of season tickets now. Going to be interesting to see a distinct culture and long-term vision develop. We’ve been fire fighting for so long. I really hope we get back to being a proper club again. Good luck to you!
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You would think, in this day and age, that there would be a way to communicate face to face with each other. 🤔
Obviously I meant the presser as opposed to the interview...
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He's in quarantine for 10 days.
Thanks
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Possibly the most underwhelming managerial appointment for a very long time
Benitez didn’t return the call.
Wonder who you were expecting ?
For me it’s the right choice - an up and coming manager with a style of his own.
Makes a refreshing change IMO.
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I'm really pleased with this appointment, it makes a nice change to actually go for someone on the upwards curve of their career rather than the downwards!
A big bug bear of mine over the team for a good few seasons now has been the apparent lack of fight in the players. Too often in big must win matches they just don't have the fight in them to get a result and the opposition always look like they want it more. I can forgive a lack of technical skill but a lacklustre attitude is just so poor in a professional sportsman.
I have high hopes Valerien can turn this around, even if it takes a bit of time. I think we have a very interesting season ahead of us!
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I'm really pleased with this appointment, it makes a nice change to actually go for someone on the upwards curve of their career rather than the downwards!
A big bug bear of mine over the team for a good few seasons now has been the apparent lack of fight in the players. Too often in big must win matches they just don't have the fight in them to get a result and the opposition always look like they want it more. I can forgive a lack of technical skill but a lacklustre attitude is just so poor in a professional sportsman.
I have high hopes Valerien can turn this around, even if it takes a bit of time. I think we have a very interesting season ahead of us!
Agree with this I can accept a player failing to do something due to a lack of ability but there is no excuse for a lack of effort hopefully under this guy we won't be seeing half hearted performances this season.
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Really buzzing over this appointment haven't been this enthusiastic since Moga signed.
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Possibly the most underwhelming managerial appointment for a very long time
It’s a risk. Underwhelming no. Madness is to do the same thing again and again hoping for a different result. Appointing most of the other candidates for me would have been repeating our previous mistakes. This time we have really taken a chance. I think it’s brave not underwhelming and really hope it pays off.
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It’s a risk. Underwhelming no. Madness is to do the same thing again and again hoping for a different result. Appointing most of the other candidates for me would have been repeating our previous mistakes. This time we have really taken a chance. I think it’s brave not underwhelming and really hope it pays off.
That's how I feel, at least we're actually doing something instead of just hedging to try scrape another season in the Prem. Maybe by accident, who cares, a few weeks time we're off again and I am looking forward to after the last few years.
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There must be a fair chance that Valérien will bring Joseph Laumann with him to The Hawthorns as one of his assistants, as he brought him to Barnsley when he was first appointed. Here's some info about Laumann from the Barnsley Chronicle (https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/19757/new-coach-laumann-pleased-to-work-with-ismael-for-first-time):
"New coach Laumann pleased to work with Ismael for first time
Joseph Laumann has been friends with Valerien Ismael for several years but had never worked with him until they were both appointed by Barnsley last week. The 37-year-old Moroccan-born German played and coached mainly in the lower divisions of German football and was introduced to the new Reds head coach who took him along to Oakwell.
Laumann told the Chronicle: 'We got in touch when he was working with Wolfsburg (where Ismael was manager in 2016/17). A friend of mine was his analyst. We have stayed in touch and talked about football. I knew I would be his coach in his next job. It is the first time we have worked together but it feels like we have done it for years. We fit well together.'
Laumann was excited to work in English football. He said: 'I have been to London a couple of times. The last time we tried to get tickets for Boxing Day but we couldn’t. I watched many games on TV, the Premier League is the best league in the world. The Championship is a big, big step for everyone and everyone wants to come here to step a foot in English football. If you get the opportunity to work there, you take it.'
'I have a wife and two kids who stay at home. It is OK, I can focus on my work. It is the first time I am alone. I have a good connection with Valerien because he is in the same situation.'
Ismael and Laumann are working with existing first team staff Adam Murray and Tonda Eckert. Laumann said: 'They are both a big help. Adam knows everything about the club. They both have good competence and they are very open. We are a team. 'I am not coming to say ‘I am the assistant.’ We work all three together. The basis was already there in the squad for the football we want to play, the mentality and the physicality is good. We want to make changes but the basis is good'.â€
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Being completely honest I don’t know too much about him. I knew Barnsley had overachieved and through then incredible knowledge I have gathered on him (Wikipedia) he has done well at other clubs. To be honest I am quietly hopeful and optimistic. I have always felt alot of our managerial appointments lacked any creativity or adventure. We have been the home for the same cycle of British coaches who are underwhelming. From what I’ve read he seems like someone who will do things his way and clear out any dead wood. He likes younger hungry players who he can mould into a team. His teams are fit and play on the front foot. We can often be so logical and pragmatic when it comes to football but it’s more often than not about heart and feeling. I have a good feeling about Ismaël. I also had a good feeling about the last episode of line of duty so....who knows :)
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The £2m we got for Mogga has finally been spent.
Personally, I am in 2 minds as to whether we should have paid such a high figure when Wilder was available for nowt.
But, I am certain Wilder would have been on much higher wages so it may even itself out.
In event I hope Valerian shows some steel and guides up back to where we belong.
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Underwhelming? We've just paid £2m for a guy who took Barnsley from the brink of League 1 to the brink of the Prem. This is a club who have appointed Alan Irvine, Alan Pardew, Tony Pulis and were looking at David Wagner and Alex Neil a few weeks ago. For the first time in a long time I'm not embarrassed by the decision making at the club.
I'm pleased Valérien has been appointed but posters claiming they are ecstatic are no more rational than other forum members being underwhelmed. Nothing has happened, no transfer activity, no games. The appointment may be a success, a failure or something in-between, we have absolutely no idea.
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Who's the last manager that lasted 4 years? It's different that's for sure, could be a disaster or a masterstroke, I'll sit back and enjoy the ride and hopefully it's an enjoyable one.
Nice to hear talk about long term plans for the club rather short term fixes that get us nowhere.
Being given a 4 year contact and lasting 4 years is a very different matter. How many years did Alan Pardew last at Newcastle after signing a 8 year contract?
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I'm pleased Valérien has been appointed but posters claiming they are ecstatic are no more rational than other forum members being underwhelmed. Nothing has happened, no transfer activity, no games. The appointment may be a success, a failure or something in-between, we have absolutely no idea.
Some of the hyperbole around the signing of Ismael may be more down to the fact that he's young, did well at Barnsley in a short space of time and was relatively successful at his other clubs and that the club have offered him a 4yr deal which may or may not be because of a long term plan. There's a lot of relief involved that it wasn't given to Appleton or McInnes.
I'd think of it as hopeful excitement.
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I'm pleased Valérien has been appointed but posters claiming they are ecstatic are no more rational than other forum members being underwhelmed. Nothing has happened, no transfer activity, no games. The appointment may be a success, a failure or something in-between, we have absolutely no idea.
Please be sure to let us know when we're allowed to talk about him then! ;D
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Please be sure to let us know when we're allowed to talk about him then! ;D
This time next year we will have a decent idea if the the appointment was wise or not - presuming we don't sack him in December.
Hence I'm not going to be critical of anyone who is underwhelmed or excited at this stage.
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The £2m we got for Mogga has finally been spent.
Who's Mogga?
I hate it when names are shortened and I don't know who we're talking about
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Who's Mogga?
I hate it when names are shortened and I don't know who we're talking about
Tony Mowbray
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I like what he’s said so far. He and the club have made the right noises so far, which is refreshing. The proof will ultimately be in the pudding and we’ll see what we do in the transfer market.
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I'm pleased Valérien has been appointed but posters claiming they are ecstatic are no more rational than other forum members being underwhelmed. Nothing has happened, no transfer activity, no games. The appointment may be a success, a failure or something in-between, we have absolutely no idea.
You're quite right in what your saying but I like the fact he's young I like that he wants the team to high press and to do so be fit as a butchers dog he did well at Barnsley all in all he looks liks a manager on the way up instead of down.
Time will indeed tell but whoever we signed as manager success is not guaranteed.
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You're quite right in what your saying but I like the fact he's young I like that he wants the team to high press and to do so be fit as a butchers dog he did well at Barnsley all in all he looks liks a manager on the way up instead of down. Time will indeed tell but whoever we signed as manager success is not guaranteed.
I don't disagree with any of that. All eyes on the transfer window now, keep Pereira and spend wisely and I fancy our chances.
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Think a lot of people are excited by the ones we didn't get as well as an overwhelming feeling of relief we have someone with potential and I do agree we have to wait and see, but I don't get the chance to get excited very often so do excuse me.
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I don't disagree with any of that. All eyes on the transfer window now, keep Pereira and spend wisely and I fancy our chances.
Keep Pereira with a high press style and we could be incredible this season. Of course we don't know but I do know I'm full of anticipation for the first time in about 18 months.
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Keep Pereira with a high press style and we could be incredible this season. Of course we don't know but I do know I'm full of anticipation for the first time in about 18 months.
Not only keep Pereira but also keep our England international goal keeper and Player of the Season, Sam Johnstone!
:D
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No thank you. Imperative we keep MP. We have nobody else even close to his value to the team regarding goals, assists and creativity.
SJ easily replaceable - money far more useful than a keeper who needs a very big bucket to catch the ball with.
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Ridiculous comment on Sam , sad to read on this board. The lad has done brilliantly the last year.
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Ridiculous comment on Sam , sad to read on this board. The lad has done brilliantly the last year.
But he hasnt! Good short range shot stopper, but poor footwork, poor in the air, poor at long range shots, in my opinion. Yes he is an England keeper, but nothing will convince me he is anything special. He is limited.
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Really looking forward to see some interviews with him this week and the players returning to training
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Not only keep Pereira but also keep our England international goal keeper and Player of the Season, Sam Johnstone!
:D
Nah, Johnstone’s being sold.
Looking forward to seeing where he ends up. Fingers crossed he doesn’t end up seeing out the last year of his contract with us, lol! 🤞🏻
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Ridiculous comment on Sam , sad to read on this board. The lad has done brilliantly the last year.
He conceded 76 goals.
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He conceded 76 goals.
and also made the most saves in the division, above average goalkeeper behind a shocking defence for the most part of the season.
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He conceded 76 goals.
Would have been a lot less with a competent defence and a lot more had he been as limited as you state
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Scott Carson conceded 67 goals in the Pem' behind a Mowbray midfield and defence.
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Anyway, back to Val.
Anybody seen him yet?
When will we hear from him?
I'm more positive with his appointment.
He seems an inventive thinking person with ideas that I like the sound of.
I want early signings of our own players, young players with talent who are hungry, no starving for recognition and success.
Players who want to play for WBA and are proud to play for us and have a team spirit with a siege mentality and are mentally strong.
From what I've read about Val I think he could be the man.
I love the fitness upgrade and high press I don't really know about his formation preferences, you guys know that my preferred set up is 352,but I'm excited by our choice and give him my backing.
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Would have been a lot less with a competent defence and a lot more had he been as limited as you state
Wrong thread to go on about this but I wanted to point out that I’ve not stated anything other than the amount of goals he let in, so don’t makes things up
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Anyway, back to Val.
Anybody seen him yet?
When will we hear from him?
I'm more positive with his appointment.
He seems an inventive thinking person with ideas that I like the sound of.
I want early signings of our own players, young players with talent who are hungry, no starving for recognition and success.
Players who want to play for WBA and are proud to play for us and have a team spirit with a siege mentality and are mentally strong.
From what I've read about Val I think he could be the man.
I love the fitness upgrade and high press I don't really know about his formation preferences, you guys know that my preferred set up is 352,but I'm excited by our choice and give him my backing.
He’s not in the country and has to go through quarantine so I presume his first media engagements will be once pre-season commences. Even the interview process was conducted remotely - he hasn’t met Ken face to face yet.
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Wow, thanks for the info '82.
I would think he's been given the sp and would have an idea who he wants
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I did see something to the effect that his quarantine would be done and dusted by the time the players are back in training
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I did see something to the effect that his quarantine would be done and dusted by the time the players are back in training
That was said in an article somewhere yeah, but what day are they back?
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That was said in an article somewhere yeah, but what day are they back?
I thought I'd seen something somewhere saying that they were back tomorrow, but I've not been able to find it again today. 3 or 4 weeks ago the local journos said the players would be back in early July, but they didn't know the date. If the players are back tomorrow, there will undoubtedly be photos on the Club website.
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I thought I'd seen something somewhere saying that they were back tomorrow, but I've not been able to find it again today. 3 or 4 weeks ago the local journos said the players would be back in early July, but they didn't know the date. If the players are back tomorrow, there will undoubtedly be photos on the Club website.
It's 6 weeks to the first league game so they surely have to be back tomorrow.
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It's 6 weeks to the first league game so they surely have to be back tomorrow.
Yes they are back tomorrow
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'If' the press reports regarding Pereira have any truth to them then Ismael's first press conference just got a whole lot more awkward.....
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Yes they are back tomorrow
Pereira must have flown back yesterday then as he was in Lisbon over the weekend with Krov.
When Albion announced Val's appointment it stated he would arrive later 'this week' ...so Friday, Saturday or Sunday.
I would expect there to be something out on the OS today therefore, if not a little worrying!
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The lack of photos on the official site, or any reference to the players being back, suggests that they haven't returned to training today after all. We'll have to see what tomorrow brings...
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The lack of photos on the official site, or any reference to the players being back, suggests that they haven't returned to training today after all. We'll have to see what tomorrow brings...
E&S usually reports and shows photos when we are back in too to be fair
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Val isolation ends Thursday, all players back in for training then according to the E&S, players are in today for C19 tests only.
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Mowatt to have a medical later this week according to John Percy.
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Mowatt to have a medical later this week according to John Percy.
Ideal signing on a free transfer. From the little I have seen, a quality left foot and a bit of everything about him, box to box midfielder who will score a few. Downside - not the quickest or strongest to thrive in the premiership, but that's another story, and not important, only promotion is.
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Nice to see us moving the free transfer market as there are bargains to be had and Mowett seems a very, very shrewd and logical move and immediately means we aren’t relying on the much maligned Livermore Sawyers “axis.â€
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From what I’ve seen of Mowatt and from reports I’ve read online, on a free as well. It’s a shrewd signing.
Should add impetus and energy to the midfield.
He’s an all round good player
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There's nothing particularly earth-shattering in this new article (https://www.wba.co.uk/news/oshea-excited-ambitious-ismael) quoting Dara O'Shea on the official website, but I was impressed by the section in bold as it would appear that Valerien has been speaking to all of the players individually by phone ahead of the start of pre-season training on Thursday.
"Dara O’Shea says he is looking forward to Albion’s upcoming 2021/22 Sky Bet Championship campaign under the leadership of Head Coach Valérien Ismaël. The 22-year-old Baggies defender has amassed 52 appearances for the club since making his debut in 2019 and is excited to help to implement a different footballing identity at The Hawthorns next term under his new ‘ambitious’ boss.
Albion’s Irishman says the aim next term is bouncing back to the top flight at the first time of asking, a journey in which he hopes to be a key figure in. “I’m looking forward to playing under our new Head Coach,†said Dara. "I think it’s exciting when a new Head Coach comes in. He looks very ambitious and he has an identity and a way he wants to play. It all seems good and positive for the club.
I spoke to him a few days ago on the phone. It sounded really good what he was saying and the way he wants the club to go forward and the way he wants us to play is exciting.
I feel fit and I’m raring to go for pre-season now. I do like pre-season, but I also don’t. As every player will say, the running aspect is not enjoyable, but it’s good to be back and good to get going again. To get promoted straight back to the Premier League would be the main goal for next season, and to play regular football as well will be my personal goal.
I went away with Ireland at the start of the summer for an international. I had 10 days there which was good. Then I had two weeks off, relaxed and went to Portugal for a bit and switched off away from football. Ireland was good. It was very positive; we got a win, which we’d been waiting to get for a while now and it was a good training camp in nice weather as well."
As for "as every player will say, the running aspect is not enjoyable", I think they'll need to find a way to enjoy it, as I'm sure Valerien will want a "can do" attitude from all of the players towards his training methodologies and style of play.
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I think O’Shea could be one of the big winners of the Ismael reign. He does play a very good long pass, has a bit of pace and can play in a 3 man defence if Ismael chooses to do so.
Him, Ajayi and Kipre might all do well.
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I think O’Shea could be one of the big winners of the Ismael reign. He does play a very good long pass, has a bit of pace and can play in a 3 man defence if Ismael chooses to do so.
Him, Ajayi and Kipre might all do well.
Sorry but i would have to disagree that O'Shea has pace Baggies! Apart from the odd clanger it's the thing he misses most for me.
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There's nothing particularly earth-shattering in this new article (https://www.wba.co.uk/news/oshea-excited-ambitious-ismael) quoting Dara O'Shea on the official website, but I was impressed by the section in bold as it would appear that Valerien has been speaking to all of the players individually by phone ahead of the start of pre-season training on Thursday.
As for "as every player will say, the running aspect is not enjoyable", I think they'll need to find a way to enjoy it, as I'm sure Valerien will want a "can do" attitude from all of the players towards his training methodologies and style of play.
I think they'll be looking at plenty of German style triple sessions in warm/hot weather, with plenty of people parting with the contents of their stomachs as a result....maybe difficult to find a way to enjoy it until it's all done and hopefully the team can reap the benefits.
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Scott Carson conceded 67 goals in the Pem' behind a Mowbray midfield and defence.
off topic however Carson also got dropped for Kiely that season.
also that team was much more on the attack and keep possession (just didn't have a striker) compared to season just gone where we were under pressure for 85 of the 90 minutes.
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off topic however Carson also got dropped for Kiely that season.
also that team was much more on the attack and keep possession (just didn't have a striker) compared to season just gone where we were under pressure for 85 of the 90 minutes.
Kiely only played 3 games in the PL that season (08/09) Carson played 35.
Pleased that Ismael has been in contact with the players individually, sounds like a good man manager.
As others have said hopefully his fitness/training regimes will make us a lot fitter than we were for large parts of the last 2 seasons.
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Needs to get his coaching staff sorted asap, we let our head of sports science go last week, no replacement yet and pre-season is starting, not good.
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Tom Ross has just stated on his Twitter page good luck to our new boss and see you on Monday.
Looks like his first press conference could be on Monday then
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Just out of interest about Val.
I wonder what his salary was at Barnsley compared to the Albion, anybody any idea?
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https://twitter.com/valerien_ismael/status/1411008784558964736?s=21 (https://twitter.com/valerien_ismael/status/1411008784558964736?s=21)
Brilliant tweet that, I know lip service is good & what happens are the results on the pitch but from the early signs I think we’ve got ourselves a good manager here. Knows how to get the fans onboard, trying to get a feel for the fabric of the cub etc.
I’m really really looking forward to next season.
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https://twitter.com/valerien_ismael/status/1411008784558964736?s=21 (https://twitter.com/valerien_ismael/status/1411008784558964736?s=21)
Brilliant tweet that, I know lip service is good & what happens are the results on the pitch but from the early signs I think we’ve got ourselves a good manager here. Knows how to get the fans onboard, trying to get a feel for the fabric of the cub etc.
I’m really really looking forward to next season.
I couldn't agree more - fabulous stuff!
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https://twitter.com/valerien_ismael/status/1411008784558964736?s=21 (https://twitter.com/valerien_ismael/status/1411008784558964736?s=21)
Brilliant tweet that, I know lip service is good & what happens are the results on the pitch but from the early signs I think we’ve got ourselves a good manager here. Knows how to get the fans onboard, trying to get a feel for the fabric of the cub etc.
I’m really really looking forward to next season.
Can’t fault that at all.
Fair play to him, as others have said it’s a good early way to get the fans on board. Add to that one or two decent signings and everything feels a little bit better.
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Love the pics of him with bomber and brunty. Something just feels right with this appointment, feels like he’s embracing the whole club.
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The man seems to ooze class from the legends tweet to the work with the foundation, if his manager skills match this we are going straight back up
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This looks like a perfect fit .Feels like something exciting is about to happen. In all the time of supporting the Albion ,I've never known a photo being taken with all the staff at the training ground . Let's hope it's a New beginning.
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This looks like a perfect fit .Feels like something exciting is about to happen. In all the time of supporting the Albion ,I've never known a photo being taken with all the staff at the training ground . Let's hope it's a New beginning.
Darren Moore done it.
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First official video of the gaffer on the OS
I like what I hear so far
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First official video of the gaffer on the OS
I like what I hear so far
I did until he said we are basically going to revise the squad and see if we have what we may need in the academy. It doesn't fill me with confidence he is going to be able to bring players in that we need.
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I did until he said we are basically going to revise the squad and see if we have what we may need in the academy. It doesn't fill me with confidence he is going to be able to bring players in that we need.
Wouldnt read too much into it hes saying if their good enough their old enough
Might be another ferguson already at the club
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I did until he said we are basically going to revise the squad and see if we have what we may need in the academy. It doesn't fill me with confidence he is going to be able to bring players in that we need.
I thought he was just saying that he wants to evaluate the existing senior players first and also see if anyone in the Academy looks like they might be able to step up. I'm sure it won't take him long to see where the problems lie. As he said earlier in the interview, he wants to get us to a stage as quickly as possible where he feels we're competing, so he's not going to mess around.
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Totally right approach starts with those already at the club and looks to promote from the academy/under 23's. Does not start with a shopping list of favourites and work backwards. Music to my ears. Yes I know we have picked up Mowatt from Barnsley but he fills a very obvious gap.
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Just watched the interview, if he gets his way it will be a shake up. Don’t think we will carry any passengers. He clearly has a way to play and everything is geared to that end. Seems like the youngsters if good enough will get a chance too.
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I'm loving what I see of Val so far.
He came across very well in his interview and said everything I wanted to hear including the fact that he's clearly not going to be afraid of promoting youth from within. If he thinks they're good enough they'll get their chance.
He's learned all about the history of the club already, spoken to just about everyone you'd want him to speak to including Brunty and Bomber and that will ingrain "Albion" into him.
He doesnt seem the type to do things by halves and the way he's started he doesn't come across as someone who is not in it for the long run.
10/10 .......... so far!
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He doesnt seem the type to do things by halves and the way he's started he doesn't come across as someone who is not in it for the long run.
10/10 .......... so far!
I agree entirely. His tweet posted earlier today (https://twitter.com/valerien_ismael/status/1411618801574088707) simply said:
"Focus on the process @WBA #WorkHard"
with the tweet being accompanied by 2 photos (one indoors and one outdoors) showing him explaining his ethos to the players. If some of them are unable to do what he wants them to, it won't be because they don't understand what's required of them. Rather, it'll be because of their inability or unwillingness to do it. If they can't hack it in either (or both) of those respects, they need to go sooner rather than later.
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Impressed so far. Making the right noises, meeting the right people. OK it's propaganda, what they want you to see, but my first impressions are, that he's keen. I wish him all the best, let's all get behind him and hope he gets the resources and the application from all concerned to get it right on the pitch! Good luck Valerien.
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Love what I'm seeing from him at the moment, some great stuff from the tour of the club, it just feels so positive you can touch it.
Lets all get behind this guy ,it won't be boring.
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Liking the vibe of this guy, a latter day 'Megson' perhaps ?
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Liking the vibe of this guy, a latter day 'Megson' perhaps ?
Totally leftfield and totally what we need at this moment........
Looking forward to this season now.
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Just hoping the players buy into VI as enthusiastically as much of the support base. If they don't there's a number of players we're going to find tough to move on and replace. All of the very best Valerian.
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Liking the vibe of this guy, a latter day 'Megson' perhaps ?
There is only one ;)
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I thought I'd take a look at what Ismael was working with at Barnsley and LASK and to what degree he shaped those squads. At both clubs he inherited the squads with no opportunity to influence the personnel before the season kicked off. In effect he had two January windows to change personnel and one player arrived at LASK and three this January at Barnsley.
Whatever he has achieved he has achieved with other coaches players. That begs the question as to how close to the playing style were the squads he inherited?
At both clubs there was a preponderance of younger players. At Barnsley the oldest player in the squad was 30 and Alex Mowatt at 26 was one of the more experienced players. The age profile at LASK was similar.
Looking at the two squads and allowing for the fact they are playing in very different leagues it strikes me they were very similar in terms of quality. Most of the LASK players wouldn't look out of place in the Championship and visa versa in both cases any outstanding talent would migrate pretty quickly to the German Bundesliga or the Premier League so by default they aren't elite level players but they are far from the worst.
The key difference between the two squads is the level that they are competing at. Barnsley have one of the lower budgets in the Championship so generally they are competing against better resourced teams so are probably at a talent disadvantage whereas LASK are a lot closer to the norm in the Austrian Bundesliga where only RB Salzburg have talent advantage and they are miles ahead of the rest.
In terms of style he did inherit squads that had worked with coaches that had similar philosophies to his own in Gerhard Struber at Barnsley and Oliver Glasner at LASK. However he did opposite things with the teams. At LASK he was more possession orientated than Glasner but at Barnsley he introduced greater verticality to the play and even more aggressive pressing than his predecessor. Which is an interesting tactical response to the challenges in front of him and here it needs to be stressed in both cases with the exact same group of players.
How does this compare to the situation at the Albion?
Tactically we are a about as far away from a high press than it is possible to be. The squad's lowest common denominator is passive low block in defence with vague possession orientated aspirations in attack which is a net result of four different coaches being allowed free reign without any overriding style template.
In terms of personnel this is the best squad he has worked with or least ways the most expensively assembled. He hasn't managed players that have cost their club £10m plus or anything close to it.
With regard to age profile it is considerably older and more experienced than the squads he had at either LASK or Barnsley. On balance it is not as old as it used to be but it is not as young as it needs to be. A high pressing game in a league with a heavy work load is no country for old men.
This is his biggest challenge with any group of players he has taken over. However unlike his previous roles he can add to the group but as discussed elsewhere the changes won't be as wholesale as many want them to be. The core of what he is working with is already in the building.
I suspect it will be still very much on a tactical learning curve when we start the season. Pre season friendlies are all well and good but tactical plans only become stress tested when they are subject to the intensity of competitive games.
I remain optimistic about this appointment but it does need to be given time.
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But will the pressures here be greater than his previous posts?
At Barnsley he was just about survival: anything else being a bonus.
At West Brom he will be expected to achieve promotion.
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But will the pressures here be greater than his previous posts?
At Barnsley he was just about survival: anything else being a bonus.
At West Brom he will be expected to achieve promotion.
Expectations are different but if the team is under performing the pressures are the same. If Albion are 10th in the Championship the glass is less than half full if Barnsley are 10th then the glass is more than half full. Yet there is genuine pressure to keep Barnsley in the Championship there are consequences for not doing so. Likewise for not getting Albion promoted during the parachute payment period.
I try not to read too much into interviews but in he was bowled a reasonably soft question on promotion which any new coach at West Brom would answer "we expect to challenge etc..." Ismael's response batted promotion away with words to the effect we get the system right we get the tactics right and the players right then we are ready to fight for promotion. This is not ducking the question but focussing on what he as a coach and the squad can do to achieve the aim not the aim. This is fairly revealing.
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The club have appointmented Ron Gourlay to help with transfers. Almost replacing Dowling. Will be interesting to see who rolls out with Val on the press conference.
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At least he is being realistic:
ISMAEL EXPECTS JOHNSTONE, PERIERA DEPARTURES
New West Brom boss Valerien Ismael admits he expects Sam Johnstone and Matheus Pereira to leave The Hawthorns.
Goalkeeper Johnstone and forward Pereira were the two stand out performers despite Albion’s dismal season as they finished second bottom.
Johnstone – linked with West Ham and Arsenal – is currently away with England ahead of Wednesday’s Euro 2020 semi-final with Denmark while Pereira is back in training with the Baggies but Ismael is not preparing to work with them for long.
He said: “It’s not a secret, Sam Johnstone and Matheus Pereira are the two players who can leave. It’s my expectation they will leave.
“I don’t need the best players, I need the right players and even if they leave we will find the right solution.
“After I signed I had some video calls with all the players and it was the first time I spoke with Matheus, we spoke openly about the situation. I don’t have a problem. It’s very simple, you are in or you are out. But, if you are in, you are 100 per cent. At the minute he is 100 per cent focused and I can’t say anything else.
“We will see (with Johnstone). As soon as he’s finished (at the Euros) we will see. I hope for everyone it will be very long until he comes back. At the minute the focus is on the Euros for him. We are really proud. We’ll have a talk when he comes back.â€
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He said: “It’s not a secret, Sam Johnstone and Matheus Pereira are the two players who can leave. It’s my expectation they will leave."
Some people might be concerned by this comment, for instance they might interpret it as Valerien saying that he doesn't want either of those players to stay. I think it's much more likely that it's an "English as a second language" thing and what he actually meant is what you get if you substitute "can" with either "could" or "might". Any concern about the comment should then be defused and what he said is simply being realistic about the situation that we're in, as Baggie79 has observed.
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It will be interesting to see what comes out from the press conference over the next day or two, but I think I heard Joe Masi say he had mentioned Diangana and Grant as two players who could fit quite well into his system (at 23 years, they do seem the right age bracket for him too). He also apparently mentioned academy players in his interview and there is a feeling he will promote a few into his match day squads.
I had a small sample peak at his time with LASK and Barnsley and it seems he quite often substitutes his entire front 3 each game, suggesting he expects them to run themselves into the ground with the high press. This bodes well for Grant, Diangana and Robinson who should be assured of a lot of game time, but might also suit the likes of Rico Richards, Tom Fellows and Rayhaan Tulloch who may get early chances to impress from the bench.
I’m interested to see what he does with the strike force, seeing as we currently only have one senior centre forward in Zohore on the books. Surely he can’t convert a 27 year old Zohore into a high pressing forward at this stage? Can you imagine if he somehow worked a miracle. If not, we will either need 2 new strikers this window or somebody like Morton or even Reyes Cleary might get more game time than expected.
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Some people might be concerned by this comment, for instance they might interpret it as Valerien saying that he doesn't want either of those players to stay. I think it's much more likely that it's an "English as a second language" thing and what he actually meant is what you get if you substitute "can" with either "could" or "might". Any concern about the comment should then be defused and what he said is simply being realistic about the situation that we're in, as Baggie79 has observed.
Totally agree with you, but i'd be disappointed in anyone spinning this to be negative. His intent is clear.
For what its worth, I think selling MP is the right move. We're 1 unlucky tackle from not having him or the funds. SJ i think 90% of Albion fans are agreed is currently over valued by the market. Thanks for everything and good luck lad!
With those funds, the three outstanding position can all get solid, genuinely good players and the team can be upgraded as a whole.
Yet more straight talking common sense logic from Val. I love to see it.
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Totally agree with you, but i'd be disappointed in anyone spinning this to be negative. His intent is clear.
For what its worth, I think selling MP is the right move. We're 1 unlucky tackle from not having him or the funds. SJ i think 90% of Albion fans are agreed is currently over valued by the market. Thanks for everything and good luck lad!
With those funds, the three outstanding position can all get solid, genuinely good players and the team can be upgraded as a whole.
Yet more straight talking common sense logic from Val. I love to see it.
No problem with either of them leaving.
Huge problem with trusting our hierarchy to adequately replace them.
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I don't think there was anything particularly revelatory about today's press conference. In terms of Ismael's approach that is fairly clear. It is also clear that he is running the rule over the players that already in the building. You and I might doubt some of the players ability to adapt, but which of our last 4 coaches ever played a high press? The players haven't failed in a high press system they have never been asked to play in one. We will wait and see but I don't the impression that we will go to the market for a whole new team.
The updates on transfer dealings do add some clarity. We all know that Johnstone and Pereira are likely to be subject to offers and if those offers are acceptable then they will leave. Yet Ismael made it clear that while they remain Albion players they are expected to be 100% in and thus far they are.
It is starting to look like logical joined up thinking has arrived.
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Although the acid test will be the outcome of competitive game time the pre season fixtures should prove revealing for what we can expect.
I'd still be surprised to find the squad we start the season with has no further additions from that point through to when the summer window closes.
Interesting times, at least it shouldn't be boring. So 'play that funky high press Ismael'..... there's got to be a song in there somewhere, just saying like ;D .
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Interesting he’s said a few times about our youth.
Think Morton may be around the first team, from the reports I’ve seen he never stops running and pressing. That may just win VI over and earn him a squad place.
Does anyone know if many of our under 18s signed pro deals? Players like Iroegbunam were excellent and highly thought of but I can’t find anything to suggest he signed a deal, rumours he might be heading to villa.
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Interesting he’s said a few times about our youth.
Think Morton may be around the first team, from the reports I’ve seen he never stops running and pressing. That may just win VI over and earn him a squad place.
Does anyone know if many of our under 18s signed pro deals? Players like Iroegbunam were excellent and highly thought of but I can’t find anything to suggest he signed a deal, rumours he might be heading to villa.
Richards signed one but not sure about the rest and I can't find anything about Irogbunam's contract situation. Worrying if he's not tied down. Another British club would have to pay us compensation if they poached him but we really don't want to keep losing our best academy talent.
Rico Richards signed a 3 year deal last year and sounds like he's training with the 1st team pre season. Not sure about the rest.
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Richards signed one but not sure about the rest and I can't find anything about Irogbunam's contract situation. Worrying if he's not tied down. Another British club would have to pay us compensation if they poached him but we really don't want to keep losing our best academy talent.
Rico Richards signed a 3 year deal last year and sounds like he's training with the 1st team pre season. Not sure about the rest.
Heard something the other day about Iroegbunam and a club down the road but hoping it weren’t true. Had a look and can’t see him signing a deal for us.
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Interesting he’s said a few times about our youth.
Think Morton may be around the first team, from the reports I’ve seen he never stops running and pressing. That may just win VI over and earn him a squad place.
Does anyone know if many of our under 18s signed pro deals? Players like Iroegbunam were excellent and highly thought of but I can’t find anything to suggest he signed a deal, rumours he might be heading to villa.
The retained and released list article on the official website stated he was offered a contract.
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I've been wondering who the ginger lad in all the training videos was...I clearly forgot about Callum Morton.
As other have said, I think he'll be in and around the squad
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Gutted if Iroegbunam leaves for Villa. Getting the impression Villa are making a concerted effort not just to take our best youngsters, but to send a bit of a message to move arguably their biggest (academy) rival off their patch and maybe to try to put it out of business (by making the club question if it's sustainable).
Bit of a bully boy move but entirely in keeping with them as a club.
For what it's worth, Iroegbunam fits Ismael's system from what I can see of him, so looking at it without emotion, it makes way more sense for him to stay here rather than go to a club where he will be swallowed up, as Villa already have arguably the best youth side in the country and not too many have broken through recently. I expect however that if they want him, he will go, just like a host of others in the last 2 years.
Thanks Dowling.
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Is there a concrete link to Iroegbunam and them?
Have to say - in the academy game some weeks ago against them he was outstanding for us. Would be a real shame if he departed.
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Is there a concrete link to Iroegbunam and them?
Have to say - in the academy game some weeks ago against them he was outstanding for us. Would be a real shame if he departed.
Joseph Masi
@JosephMasi_Star
Lots going on transfer wise at #wba. I understand the club are interested in signing Trevoh Chalobah. Youngster Tim Iroegbunam, though, has rejected a lucrative offer to stay. I understand he's heading to Villa. Promising keeper Josh Griffiths has agreed new terms however.
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Isn't that the 2nd kid in a few months? Must be something like 7 or 8 kids Villa have taken in the last 2 years.
Questions need to be asked around why this keeps happening. Structural failures at the club. Hopefully Ismael can provide the pathways to keep these kids.
As for Ireogbunam, I hope he flops and is released by the end of his contract.
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Isn't that the 2nd kid in a few months? Must be something like 7 or 8 kids Villa have taken in the last 2 years.
Questions need to be asked around why this keeps happening. Structural failures at the club. Hopefully Ismael can provide the pathways to keep these kids.
As for Ireogbunam, I hope he flops and is released by the end of his contract.
That’s what happens when majority of our good youth coaches who have nurtured these kids for years get annoyed and move on to a new club that’s local. They come back and take the talent.
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That’s what happens when majority of our good youth coaches who have nurtured these kids for years get annoyed and move on to a new club that’s local.....
...... for double the money.
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He is pushing all the right buttons such as Foundation,Accademy young players generally,fitness etc we may have unearthed a gem.
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He is pushing all the right buttons such as Foundation,Accademy young players generally,fitness etc we may have unearthed a gem.
*Barnsley may have unearthed a gem ;D
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I think he’s set an incredibly high, almost unbeatable bar in terms of how to navigate your first week as a clubs manager.
It bodes well but Bilic was solid enough at this stuff too and it didn’t translate for long. I’ve still some reservations about the still, I don’t think a carbon copy of Barnsley will work but I’m hopeful he’s adaptable.
I’m cautiously optimistic though
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I think he’s set an incredibly high, almost unbeatable bar in terms of how to navigate your first week as a clubs manager.
It bodes well but Bilic was solid enough at this stuff too and it didn’t translate for long. I’ve still some reservations about the still, I don’t think a carbon copy of Barnsley will work but I’m hopeful he’s adaptable.
I’m cautiously optimistic though
I have high hopes at the moment - I think the dynamics are a better fit for the club.
Ismael is very much a training grass coach with an eye on improving players to fit his very defined style of football. For a club of our resources then improving players is essential. Though he had successes Bilic was never a training grass coach and nor did we have a defined style. Ismael is the opposite to that.
They both have excellent comms skills though - Albion are really marketing his personality in a way they did with Moore.
I’m excited.
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I think he’s set an incredibly high, almost unbeatable bar in terms of how to navigate your first week as a clubs manager.
It bodes well but Bilic was solid enough at this stuff too and it didn’t translate for long. I’ve still some reservations about the still, I don’t think a carbon copy of Barnsley will work but I’m hopeful he’s adaptable.
I’m cautiously optimistic though
Good post, everything looks great so far ala Bilic but the real test is when we are in the thick of it. Hope for nothing but good things of course. COYB
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I don't know why but this new bloke has caught my interest which was at a very low ebb, just a gut feeling but I reckon he will do well.
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I think he’s set an incredibly high, almost unbeatable bar in terms of how to navigate your first week as a clubs manager.
It bodes well but Bilic was solid enough at this stuff too and it didn’t translate for long. I’ve still some reservations about the still, I don’t think a carbon copy of Barnsley will work but I’m hopeful he’s adaptable.
I’m cautiously optimistic though
Interesting that you made the comparison to Bilic, I've recently trawled through the first few pages of his thread, & the comments are almost identical.
Have to say though, I'm pleased that the owners have taken a re-set position, & I really hope that VI works.
It's clear that the UK board, at least, had recognised that the club was on a downward spiral & needed a longer term approach.
I think I share your cautious optimism.
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We will find out in the next few weeks if our 'Stars' buy into his ideas. If not it could be a long season. You cant change an entire squad overnight. Hopefully the youngsters will grasp the bull by the horns and show some of the more experienced players how to step up.
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Another cautiously optimistic from me too.
Glad we've gone with what looks like a plan. Bring it on.
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On the face of it, I'm very pleased we've gone with Valérien and given him a meaty contract, it says we're finally looking forward with a plan rather than reacting to the present.
Obviously now need to see if it works out for us, but I'm cautiously optimistic
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Quotes being attributed to him about our youngsters is music to my ears hopefully these kids might get an opportunity to impress and improve in first team.
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Quotes being attributed to him about our youngsters is music to my ears hopefully these kids might get an opportunity to impress and improve in first team.
Yes and no. I am slightly concerned that Lai / Ken have decided to sell off all the players of value and have given Valerien a remit to build a young and much less experienced team; which would lead to us essentially doing a Birmingham City. Academy players supporting the squad like Ferguson did is great, but rotating them into the side in place of the core players would be a disaster.
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Yes and no. I am slightly concerned that Lai / Ken have decided to sell off all the players of value and have given Valerien a remit to build a young and much less experienced team; which would lead to us essentially doing a Birmingham City. Academy players supporting the squad like Ferguson did is great, but rotating them into the side in place of the core players would be a disaster.
So far Lai seems to have been true to his word about the football side of things being self-financing. We haven't yet got any evidence of any sort of sale of player assets where the profit doesn't stay in the football coffers and re-invested in some way.
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So far Lai seems to have been true to his word about the football side of things being self-financing. We haven't yet got any evidence of any sort of sale of player assets where the profit doesn't stay in the football coffers and re-invested in some way.
Agreed but the recent times story about what they were allegedly cooking up with Periera has shaken my confidence.
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Not unhappy with what I am hearing at the moment, but this is not the acid test. Wishing and hoping, and if anything somewhat optimistic, but reserving judgement until we have some competitive matches under our belt.
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The 14 minute video posted on the official site (https://www.wba.co.uk/news/watch-extensive-footage-valerien-ismaels-albion-introduction) this afternoon, which shows the highlights of Valerien's introduction to the various areas of the club, is definitely worth watching. It certainly made me feel even more positive about our new head coach!
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Bomber: It was 280 goals. From midfield. It's harder.
Unknown: Are you available?
It seems to have got a bit dusty here. Got something in my eye.
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Bomber: It was 280 goals. From midfield. It's harder.
Unknown: Are you available?
It seems to have got a bit dusty here. Got something in my eye.
Unknown? Clearly Brunt said that...
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Unknown? Clearly Brunt said that...
It might have been. I didn't hear his accent.
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It might have been. I didn't hear his accent.
You didn’t need to hear the accent to watch him say it ;D ;D
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It might have been. I didn't hear his accent.
there are only 3 people there...Bomber, Ismael and Brunt.
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there are only 3 people there...Bomber, Ismael and Brunt.
Who was doing the filming then, a drone?! ;D
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Ummm - you could see Chris Brunt's mouth and face move while the words came out at the exact same time in Chris Brunt's voice. Clear conclusion - Chris Brunt said it ;D
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Ummm - you could see Chris Brunt's mouth and face move while the words came out at the exact same time in Chris Brunt's voice. Clear conclusion - Chris Brunt said it ;D
He was miming! ;D
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You didn’t need to hear the accent to watch him say it ;D ;D
When I watched it the person saying it was off camera. You can tell that because I wrote "Unknown".
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When I watched it the person saying it was off camera. You can tell that because I wrote "Unknown".
It must have been cropped because the video I watched Brunt was there saying it on camera.
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I suppose it might also have been video stutter, but when I watched it the focus was on Bomber.
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I finally got around to watching the links Stan flagged up on here last month (the 2 full length LASK vs Basle games from the 2019 Europa league). Certainly worth a watch for those who want an idea of what to expect. There are also extended highlights of other ties, including the 4-1 demolition of a PSV side containing Euro 2020 star Denzel Dumfries.
I watched it on a small screen, usually while multi tasking with something else and I admit that I’m not the most tactically literate and not an authority on analysing games that don’t involve my own teams, but for what it’s worth, here is what I gleaned.
You can definitely see the clear, overriding plan is to win possession as far up field as possible. The front 3, wing backs and central midfielders all work hard to win the ball back in the oppositions half, often doing so around the opponents box.
You can also tell that, like most German coaches who passed their badges at the start of the last decade, he subscribes to the research that suggests most goals are scored on average less than 8 seconds after a team gets possession.
The first leg was away in Switzerland and confusingly I actually watched the second leg first which didn’t help. The tactics deployed in the home second leg were quite different to those in this away leg. They were actually more similar to Ismael’s Barnsley in away games than I expected they would be and I reckon we will see different tactics depending on if we are at home or away. There was a lot of long ball in the away leg, he seems to like his defence to get rid of the ball when it is in their own half. I felt the most common ball seemed to be a percentage ball played long over the head of the opposition right or left back, almost like in rugby and probably with the intention that this would be the easier place to pin a side down and execute the high press. The other ball they seem to like is up to the big centre forward who tries to bring it down or play it off quickly to a supporting team mate.
When they did get possession in the oppositions half however, they did look much more of a footballing team. As you would expect with 2 wing backs, they like to get it out wide and then cross it into the box to win headers. Quite a few goals in the 3 games I saw came from this tactic. They do however like to play quick one touch passes in the box and try to catch the opposition out. I think we will see a couple of impressive goals this season alongside the goals from crosses.
In the home tie vs Basle and the highlights of the PSV home tie, they look a much more footballing team. He still seems to like his sides to clear their lines quickly, but there were less long balls and instead there seemed to be a greater prevalence for the quick one touch passing further down the pitch. Maybe due to the quality of the LASK players, but this tactic did seem to result in a higher percentage of misplaced passed and thus a higher turnover of the ball, but due to their high press it was hard for the opposition to do much with it.
The football in the Basle home leg looked quite frenetic. They once again tried to overwhelm the opposition with how quickly they moved the ball and it seems one touch passing is going to be a thing in some home games. In the PSV highlights, it looked slightly less frenetic and pleasingly they seemed to spend most of the game camped in the PSV half attacking the goal, which considering the two sides strengths is quite impressive. Their chances in the PSV game again came from either dispossessing PSV defenders, or from getting crosses into the box.
In terms of defence, in the home leg more than the away leg I got the impression Ismael had told his defence to avoid passing back to the keeper. They would often hook balls over their own heads and back towards the half way line, or just go for a game of head tennis. When the opposition did get possession, the defending reminded me a bit of the indoor Kabaddi league they showed on Sky a few years ago, with defenders often breaking out from the line to try to win back possession before jumping back into line.
Overall, if he uses the home tactics of the Basle and PSV games, we will be a happy fan base. If we use the away tactics a lot, then we better hope we are winning games 😁.
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The 14 minute video posted on the official site (https://www.wba.co.uk/news/watch-extensive-footage-valerien-ismaels-albion-introduction) this afternoon, which shows the highlights of Valerien's introduction to the various areas of the club, is definitely worth watching. It certainly made me feel even more positive about our new head coach!
Seen this now, really interesting. Doing the right things so far like meeting with club legend Tony Brown. I think it will be good fun under this guy.
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Generally agree with Baggies that there are two quite different approaches both high pressing but one very direct and the other much more possession orientated. The former tends to get deployed where the opponents have a talent advantage hence it was the default at Barnsley and in that context both Basel and PSV were on paper stronger than LASK.
Ismael took over from Oliver Glasner whose style was a very direct high press and over time LASK evolved under Ismael but the away leg in Basel was only his 4th game in charge and he had virtually no pre season to work with the players. It also could argued that the Europa League tie was the singularly most important fixture of LASK's season so probably wasn't the game to mess with the well established style.
I suspect we will get LASK this season and if promoted Barnsley next.
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Seen this now, really interesting. Doing the right things so far like meeting with club legend Tony Brown. I think it will be good fun under this guy.
Short term I agree with you, and if we are steamrollering everything before us then happy days, but if we are not and that is either the fault of lack of investment or the fact that our 'style' has been sussed then I think we will get impatient very quickly.
I for one think that it is an imaginative and risky appointment, but I prefer this to the 'safe pair of hands journeymen' available. VI has passion and wants to win things, that will do for me.
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Valerien's style of play comes with very stringent demands of the players, so the sooner any newcomers arrive the more organised we'll be once the season starts. Players coming in after the season starts may find it difficult to fit into his method and also reach the required levels of fitness quickly. Therefore, dragging incoming transfers out until August 31st (or whenever the window closes) would be even worse this time around than in previous seasons.
No doubt people will remember that Pulis went through entire seasons stating that signings made after the season had started never reached the required level of match fitness because they weren't at the club for pre-season mountain climbing, I mean training.
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I now have a mental image of Valerian resplendent in white trainers and Albion baseball cap blowing a whistle repeatedly while the players sprint up and down the French Alps piggyback style to emphasise the importance of fitness and team bonding...... and working aaaaard.......
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Stop it SmethDan
I was having a nice day until just now!
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I now have a mental image of Valerian resplendent in white trainers and Albion baseball cap blowing a whistle repeatedly while the players sprint up and down the French Alps piggyback style to emphasise the importance of fitness and team bonding...... and working aaaaard.......
It's okay I have seen pictures of the players training with a ball under Pulis they wouldn't have introduced a ball for another couple of weeks yet.
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Found this which is an interesting piece (and hopefully accurate, it is quite lengthy)
Forget Barnsley and LASK Linz – Werder Bremen is the true home of Ismaël’s footballing identity
When Sam Allardyce announced his exit from the Hawthorns in mid-May, I can’t say I expected to spend my summer scouring through footage of a domestic double-winning Werder Bremen outfit of the early noughties. And yet, after Albion’s timely appointment of Valérien Ismaël, here I am.
For many of us, Ismaël’s name was a fairly unfamiliar one prior to his appointment. But for those who were aware of his impressive track record at both LASK Linz in Austria, and more recently Barnsley, there was an optimistic sense of intrigue surrounding the appointment.
On one hand, Ismaël could finally offer a floundering West Brom side a long overdue identity, but whilst his commitment to high-intensity gegenpressing would be welcomed by fans and the club’s hierarchy alike, the incredibly direct football on show at Barnsley would be far less palatable.
Thankfully, Ismaël dismissed the idea of employing a similarly pragmatic playstyle in the West Midlands, stating in first press conference: “The philosophy is high-intensity football, high press but with this team we have the possibility to have more control in possessionâ€.
Yet with Ismaël’s Barnsley side representing the total converse to this early promise of controlled possession, can we really glean much from his time in Yorkshire and Austria?
Well, yes and no.
We know that Ismaël tends to favour a 3-4-3 wherever he’s managed, preferring to use attacking, overlapping wingbacks either side of a solid three-man defence, to provide goal scoring opportunities for a front three. His trademark gegenpressing style is central to his footballing philosophy too, so we can obviously expect to see plenty of enthusiastic harrying of the opposition during his tenure.
Beyond that though, Ismaël’s on-field identity is malleable and dependent on the use of the ‘right’ players rather than the ‘best’. It will take a full pre-season to identify the right players in such a unique system; a system inspired by Ismaël’s decorated playing days in Germany (rather than during his managerial career), and surprisingly not from his spell at Bayern Munich either.
No, in fact the Frenchman’s knack for transforming mediocre sides into feared and fancied underdogs stems from his debut season on loan at the Weserstadion: the home of Werder Bremen and also home to one of the most unlikely triumphs in modern German footballing history.
Prior to his memorable stint at Werder Bremen, Albion’s new gaffer carved out a successful, if injury-hampered playing career as a centre back mostly hopping between Ligue 1 and the Bundesliga. Three separate stints at his hometown club of Strasbourg preceded his defining loan move to Bremen at the beginning of the 2003/04 season; a move which would land the then 27-year-old Frenchman an unlikely domestic double in his debut season under club legend Thomas Schaaf.
Now, Thomas Schaaf is probably a name you haven’t heard before – don’t worry you’re not alone – but after casting an eye over his league and cup-winning tactics, the similarities between his and Ismaël’s approach at LASK and Barnsley is uncanny.
Schaaf, a true one-club man at Bremen during his playing days, blew the Bundesliga away with an unconventionally gung-ho attacking style which accentuated the talents of what was a good, rather than great squad. He didn’t need a team of Ballacks or a Pizarros to achieve the perceivably unachievable – he needed the ‘right’ players.
You can probably see where I’m going with this.
After inheriting a Bremen team under serious risk relegation in 1999, Schaaf performed miracles over the coming seasons. He propelled the team from 13th to 7th in his first full season, before recording back-to-back 6th places between 2001 and the spring of 2003. But it was the 2003/04 season where his Bremen side truly came alive.
At the centre of Schaaf’s genius was his tactical setup. His tactic of choice was as unorthodox as it was brave, opting to set up in a 3-3-2-2 formation. Seriously, 3-3-2-2.
In front of the experienced Andreas Reinke in net, Schaaf opted for three centre halves, anchored by Ismaël himself. At an intimidating 6’3, Ismaël was a huge physical and calming presence at the heart of the Bremen defence, a defence which, statistically, ranked 2nd best in the Bundesliga in their title-winning campaign – the season prior to Ismaël’s arrival it ranked 12th out of 18 sides.
To Ismaël’s left was the impressive Serbian, Mladen Krstajić, a rangy left back-turned-centre back whose quiet ascendancy from the domestic Serbian league prospect to Bundesliga heavyweight won many plaudits. Canadian Paul Stalteri, a shorter and more mobile right back who, like Krstajić, transitioned into a centre half and marshalled the right side of the defence behind the marauding right wing-back, Inter Milan loanee, Ümit Davala.
Davala, and his left-sided counterpart Fabian Ernst, bombed up and down the flanks. In many ways, they were typical modern-day wing-backs a decade ahead of their time. Between them in the centre sat Frank Baumann – a classically imposing screening midfielder who was just at home at centre half. He gave, not only Davala and the devastating Ernst the freedom to roam forwards, but much-needed balance to a midfield accommodating two more creative central midfielders ahead of him to influence the game in the opposition’s half.
These midfielders came in the shape of the reliable Krisztián Lisztes, and the supremely talented Johan Micoud. Micoud, in particular, was crucial to Schaaf’s plans. He was the creative link between the industrious defensive players and the deadly forward tandem of Ivan Klasnić, who would later sign for Baggies favourite Gary Megson at Bolton, and the Bundesliga player of the season, AÃlton.
Bremen, in this set up, were incredibly exciting. In 16 of their 34 league games, they scored at least three goals, and they were only shut out three times all season. Their 79 league goals that season was the most by any Bundesliga side since a Lothar Matthaus-inspired Bayern Munich in 1987/88. So where were all these goals coming from in the 3-3-2-2?
Based on some rudimentary research, the simple answer is AÃlton. 28 goals in 33 games speaks for itself, although his goal threat was not news to Bundesliga defenders. He’d already racked up 58 goals in the last four campaigns combined. What was new though, was how he was scoring.
AÃlton’s iconic free-scoring season was underpinned by devastating left-footed finishing, often latching on to whipped, low crosses from the left or swiftly breaching stretched defences on the break. More interestingly though, Bremen’s Brazilian benefited from two players in particular, whose form skyrocketed in that season: Fabian Ernst and Ivan Klasnić.
Previously, both players had been pretty toothless in attacking areas until this point in their Bremen careers. Ernst’s 135 Bundesliga appearances had resulted in only 11 goal contributions from either left back or left midfield. Meanwhile, 23-year-old striker Klasnić had played 35 games in two injury-hit seasons for Die Werderaner, but only started six of them.
However, Schaaf somehow found a way to maximise these underperforming talents. Ernst and Klasnić both recorded 11 league assists in 03/04, only a certain Michael Ballack for Bayern assisted more often (12). Klasnić also popped up with 13 goals, taking his personal goals and assists tally to 24, and Werder’s strike partnership to an eye-watering 60. 60 in a 34-game season. For reference, the famed Gayle (25) and Rodriguez (27) partnership amassed 52 goals and assists combined in our 46-game 2018/19 Championship season…
But what has Bremen’s eighteen-year-old success got to do with Ismaël’s current project at Albion?
Well there are more reasonable comparisons between these two seemingly unrelated sides than you might think…
Despite Werder’s success that year – which included a mammoth 23-game unbeaten run in the league – after a goalless draw with north German rivals Hannover 96 in April of 2004, Ismaël spoke to the media post-game. Clearly disappointed with the result, he declared, “If you want to become a champion you have to score goalsâ€.
Almost two decades on, these words are particularly pertinent as he undertakes his first season at West Brom.
Not only will there be pressure from some sections of the Hawthorn’s faithful to achieve an immediate Premier League return, but there is a stylistic pressure, nay expectation, to get this faltering Albion side scoring far more regularly. Given the vast array of footballing ideals that Ismaël shares with his former boss: their obsession with teamplay, their unwavering belief in selecting the right players for the system rather than the best players and their commitment to a feverish team press with an organised three-man defence, is it time for Bremen 2.0 in B71?
Not entirely, no. That being said, in my very amateur opinion, this iteration of Ismaël-ball will be closer to Schaaf’s Bremen than it will be to Barnsley. The similarities in the playing squads, especially in key roles, are there in abundance.
Townsend and Furlong are made for that Ernst-Davala wing back role, whether in a 3-3-2-2 or the 3-4-3 that Ismaël employed in Yorkshire last season. Neither are known for their defensive acumen, but their offensive play is far better than most second tier full backs and an Ernst-like season for Townsend would be very welcome.
Bartley and Ismaël games are hardly worlds apart. O’Shea is versatile, mobile, and defensively sound à la Stalteri, and rumours of Trevor Chalobah signing for the Baggies are not surprising when you compare him to defensive midfield lynchpin Frank Baumann. Both are 6’3, both represent great ball-wining options in the centre of midfield or in defence.
It may seem farfetched, but I can also optimistically envisage Grant and Robinson linking up in a not too dissimilar fashion to Klasnić and AÃlton, as part of a front three rather than a front two (maybe without the obscene goalscoring records though). Both are mobile, proven goal scorers at this level, and much like Klasnić at Werder before his breakout season, Grant has struggled to find his feet in the West Midlands. You never know.
The most intriguing like-for-like comparison that can be made between squad personnel is that between, new signing Alex Mowatt, a Brunt-esque set piece specialist with a cultured left peg, and Johan Micoud. Micoud was the silky, highly technical, dead ball expert with a cultured right peg who ran the show in Bremen’s midfield, who genuinely garnered Zidane comparisons by Bayern Munich manager Ottmar Hitzfeld during his time in Northern Germany. Whilst I am not actually indirectly likening Mowatt to Zidane, it speaks volumes that Ismaël prioritised Mowatt’s free signing, and has publicly stated that he is relying on him to disseminate his unusual philosophies to the squad on the pitch. With Pereira’s departure from the club becoming increasingly likely, it appears that Mowatt may be the new creative hub of a refurbished Albion midfield.
Individuals aside, Ismaël has to now replicate Schaaf’s ultimate quality: fixing a broken team and revitalising stagnant careers. That is not an easy task given the demanding and cruel nature of Championship football, but a four-year contract represents the club’s ambitious long-term approach to reclaiming its spot in the Premier League.
Bremen wasn’t built in a day. Schaaf won the double in his fourth season, and it may take every year of Ismaël’s contract to achieve the club’s goal of promotion, but as long as the Albion hierarchy trust Ismaël, it’s a very realistic outcome.
A ball hasn’t been kicked yet. There’s only been one confirmed signing too. Yet it’s hard to deny that Ismaël’s face fits at the Hawthorns right now and he’s been making all the right noises regarding the academy, delivering exciting football and developing a culture of hard graft and togetherness.
The tactical and philosophical inspiration from Schaaf is clear wherever Ismaël’s managed before, but the Frenchman will be no pastiche of his one-time gaffer whilst he’s at West Brom. This is his project.
This is Ismaël’s West Brom 1.0.
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Found this which is an interesting piece (and hopefully accurate, it is quite lengthy)
Cheers for posting was an informative read.
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Many thanks for that Albionic. Interesting post, and an informative encouraging read.
It would be first rate if the management gave Valérien the time and resources, and the rest of us were patient and understanding enough to allow the longer term development of Ismaël's West Brom 1.0
Still waiting to see, but with some renewed hope.
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Many thanks Albionic. I had picked up on the Werder Bremen links by digging around on a few German websites. Ismael is apparently still good mates with Frank Baumann from that Werder team, who is now Director of Football there. In fact Ismael was shortlisted for their recent manager's job, though they didn't choose him.
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Exellent post Albionic
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Thanks for posting the article, Albionic. I'm going to be fascinated to see how Valerien sets us up to play, but I'm very confident that it's not going to be dull.
Sadly for Thomas Schaaf, things have gone completely pear-shaped for him since he left Werder Bremen, having been manager there for 14 years.
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This is the second half of the article from Steve Madeley of the Athletic looking at the first month of Ismael's tenure.
Supporters with impressive hearing might have heard some interesting phrases during last weekend’s friendly at Woking.
“Deep option,†“far side†and “Bonucci ball†have all entered the lexicon for players and staff since Ismael took his first training session three weeks ago.
The most noticeable features about training under Ismael, The Athletic has been told, have been the planning and the intensity.
Days off have been few and far between, the published timetable has been adhered to meticulously while sessions have been short, detailed and played at 100mph.
Training is split into two short sessions, each with a clear, tactical objective and separated by a frank “half-time†debrief at the side of the training pitch, often featuring Ismael and a whiteboard.
The whole session, including the debrief, rarely lasts longer than an hour, although there has been a second session in the afternoon. Further, more detailed analysis sessions take place before and after training in the training-ground classroom.
Players have been told Ismael’s commitment to pressing and winning possession high up the field is non-negotiable. Many sessions are dedicated to ensuring everyone understands how the plan works in practice.
And they have been instructed that play in possession will be direct, although so far direct has not meant “long ballâ€. Instead, it has meant playing forward passes early and spending the maximum possible time in opposition territory.
The methods of moving forward have been varied, including the new tactical jargon that Ismael has introduced for team-mates and coaches to offer simple instructions to a player in possession.
“Deep option†advises a direct ball into the central striker in the new 3-4-3 system. “Far side†is code for an early pass to a wide forward when possession is won. And “Bonucci ball†is the phrase for a diagonal pass from a right- or left-sided centre-back to the wing-back on the opposite flank.
Training is tough. “They will be fitter than they have ever been,†The Athletic was told this week by one source with first-hand knowledge of Ismael’s work at Barnsley.
So far, the noises from the Albion camp are positive.
“He’s very clear in what he wants and he takes responsibility for the way we play, which speaks volumes,†says captain Jake Livermore. “It’s the sign of a man who is clear in what he wants to do and previously it’s been unfortunate that we’ve had a lack of direction.
“Now there is a definite style of play that we want to fulfil. I’d imagine it will take time to get us where he wants us to be but we are working hard every day — twice a day at the moment. Everything is being sent to us tactically, video clips and analysis and he’s very clear in what he wants and that gives us the confidence in him.
“It’s very short, very sharp and very intense and then we take our foot off the gas and we go and look at it tactically. Then we go again.â€
Ismael is not the first Albion manager in recent times to try to embrace the staff.
Slaven Bilic did so successfully at the beginning of his reign with morning walkabouts, inclusive management and a caring yet authoritative nature. Alan Pardew tried it with handshakes and a rallying meeting but was quickly dismissed by most staff as a man fond of a gesture.
Ismael, however, has so far galvanised staff who were dispirited in the wake of a dismal 2020-21 campaign that ended in relegation.
He held a group meeting with all training-ground staff to stress the importance of each one to the cause and has made connections with employees beyond the first-team bubble. Staff have been told to call him ‘Val’.
And included in his methods in his early weeks at The Hawthorns has been a commitment to approach the squad with an open mind.
Although Albion appear to be short of cover in the wing-back and central midfield positions, Ismael has identified Ethan Ingram on the right, and particularly Taylor Gardner-Hickman on the left, as members of the youth team who could fill in this season. Portuguese midfielder Quevin Castro was signed for the club’s development group, but he has done enough in training to now be pushing for Championship appearances when the season begins.
Ismael will be judged ultimately on first-team results. But in a small space of time, he has made a big impression.
Lot to unpack there but it all seems to be going well.
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Happy that he's here but needs club to back him in transfer market as no matter what some of our senior pros say he can't polish turds.
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Happy that he's here but needs club to back him in transfer market as no matter what some of our senior pros say he can't polish turds.
No but he can roll them in glitter.
Seems to me that our hands are tied if we don't sell either Sam or Matheus...
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No but he can roll them in glitter.
Seems to me that our hands are tied if we don't sell either Sam or Matheus...
If we don’t sell either we just need a CF to storm this league
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Just had a thought - I know the pills don't help - but it occurred to me that Val with his attention to detail for every player might have been the person to knock some tactical awareness into Harper and produced a good player. Water under the bridge.
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Just had a thought - I know the pills don't help - but it occurred to me that Val with his attention to detail for every player might have been the person to knock some tactical awareness into Harper and produced a good player. Water under the bridge.
On the subject of attention to detail, Harper has been sold to Ipswich.
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On the subject of attention to detail, Harper has been sold to Ipswich.
And NJS is quite aware of that.
Hence the use of “might have been the person†and “water under the bridgeâ€.
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Just had a thought - I know the pills don't help - but it occurred to me that Val with his attention to detail for every player might have been the person to knock some tactical awareness into Harper and produced a good player. Water under the bridge.
Agreed. Selling Harper so close to the new manager coming in seemed a bit odd to me. Val could have done something with him. As you say, water under the bridge.
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As someone already said the massive piece of the jigsaw is a CF and maybe two, early signs are really good and I'm confident , as much as I can be it is Albion, we will get at least one hopefully two
Diangana looks good but grant worries me.
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Think he may have also enjoyed coaching Edwards too
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Think he may have also enjoyed coaching Edwards too
Totally agree. Thought Edwards was the best player we let go recently.
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Totally agree. Thought Edwards was the best player we let go recently.
did we let him go though ??
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did we let him go though ??
Depends how you interpret let him go. I have no links but according to the Twitterarti he was offered lower terms than Harper signed up for a couple of years back. Let him go or gave him an offer he felt undervalued by and could refuse?
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Looking at the signings (or lack of) coming in at the moment it would appear a little like groundhog day.
If we do manage to get promoted next season we'll be saying exactly the same as we are saying now, massive rebuild needed blah, blah.
We've been saying we need this rebuild for ages, anybody have a clue when it begins?
Not a knock at VI by the way.
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Looking at the signings (or lack of) coming in at the moment it would appear a little like groundhog day.
If we do manage to get promoted next season we'll be saying exactly the same as we are saying now, massive rebuild needed blah, blah.
We've been saying we need this rebuild for ages, anybody have a clue when it begins?
Not a knock at VI by the way.
And therein lies the problem.
We are aware that the likes of Grant and Diangana are not good enough for the division above. I have reservations about Grant this season and I certainly think we need another forward. Sawyers, Livermore at al - Championship fodder and nothing more.
As it stands we have a competitive side but a promotion side? And even if we did it wouldn't be pretty next season.
Much still to do.
Over to you, Mr Lai....
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At the moment the squad is weaker than the one Bilic got promoted with...We will need to be patient with VI as we will likely start the new season without too many more additions (at least to get them integrated).
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We live in hope...
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I see the 3 main priorities, a forward, midfielder and cover for the wing backs.
Phillips is an interesting forward option. Personally I think his skillset is more suited through the middle than out wide where he tends to be a one trick pony. He is also a decent finisher. However, 2 goals from 3 friendlies tells you we will struggle without a further reinforcement up front. I'm not at all convinced by Grant and neither am I sure that Tulloch can step up.
Midfield we could do with further creativity, assuming Pereira goes. Costa looks interesting, but may not be quite ready for a full season. At the same time we need a midfielder enforcer in there. I think we will miss Yokuslu, so making an effort to re-sign him would be a smart move. Its difficult to know where Livermore fits in. He is too slow at re-cycling the ball and very rarely spots a clever through pass. And I think its agreed that Yokuslu did a far better job as an enforcer.
Other than that, Furlong and Townsend look capable of doing a decent wing back job, but they need backup for unavailability.
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I see the 3 main priorities, a forward, midfielder and cover for the wing backs.
Phillips is an interesting forward option. Personally I think his skillset is more suited through the middle than out wide where he tends to be a one trick pony. He is also a decent finisher. However, 2 goals from 3 friendlies tells you we will struggle without a further reinforcement up front. I'm not at all convinced by Grant and neither am I sure that Tulloch can step up.
Midfield we could do with further creativity, assuming Pereira goes. Costa looks interesting, but may not be quite ready for a full season. At the same time we need a midfielder enforcer in there. I think we will miss Yokuslu, so making an effort to re-sign him would be a smart move. Its difficult to know where Livermore fits in. He is too slow at re-cycling the ball and very rarely spots a clever through pass. And I think its agreed that Yokuslu did a far better job as an enforcer.
Other than that, Furlong and Townsend look capable of doing a decent wing back job, but they need backup for unavailability.
The key thing is that VI plays a double 8 pivot, not a midfield three, so there isn't room for an "enforcer" (a six), nor a pure playmaker (a ten). He wants all-rounders with energy, which is why Livermore has kept his place.
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The key thing is that VI plays a double 8 pivot, not a midfield three, so there isn't room for an "enforcer" (a six), nor a pure playmaker (a ten). He wants all-rounders with energy, which is why Livermore has kept his place.
Livermore always made sense for VI and his style at this level but i still don't see where Sawyers will fit in other than 4th choice? He will surely get another CM you would think.
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At the moment the squad is weaker than the one Bilic got promoted with...We will need to be patient with VI as we will likely start the new season without too many more additions (at least to get them integrated).
That's debatable really, I think swapping out Sawyers for Mowatt is a great plus for the team. I expect Grant to score more than Austin or HRK too. Remember, the season hasn't begun yet we'll get a few more faces through the door.
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I think there is a difference in approach here. Ismael will work with what he has got he does not expect to have a squad that is hand picked to his exact specifications. He will also work with young players and pick them on the basis of what they do for him and whether or not they adapt to his style of play.
The overall system is much more important than the individuals within it. That is not to say there won't be additions but I don't think we will go out and hire players specifically for depth.
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That's debatable really, I think swapping out Sawyers for Mowatt is a great plus for the team. I expect Grant to score more than Austin or HRK too. Remember, the season hasn't begun yet we'll get a few more faces through the door.
I'm going with the assumption that Pereira and Johnstone leave (thats 2 positions we are weaker in). Pereira is our best player and one of the main reasons we got promoted. Ferguson was better than Furlong and Gibbs was a strong left back for the championship.
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I can see a couple of utility players plus a CF being it now
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The key thing is that VI plays a double 8 pivot, not a midfield three, so there isn't room for an "enforcer" (a six), nor a pure playmaker (a ten). He wants all-rounders with energy, which is why Livermore has kept his place.
We can have players with 'energy', which I interpret as box-to-box, but not at the cost of skill on the ball. That's my main problem with Livermore. I would argue that Yokuslu also got up and down the pitch, but crucially, with more end product.
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I think there is a difference in approach here. Ismael will work with what he has got he does not expect to have a squad that is hand picked to his exact specifications. He will also work with young players and pick them on the basis of what they do for him and whether or not they adapt to his style of play.
The overall system is much more important than the individuals within it. That is not to say there won't be additions but I don't think we will go out and hire players specifically for depth.
That’s the line that VI has come out with, I have my doubts. Quality counts at the end of the day and we were better set up for promotion two years ago. How much did we waste changing manager for half a season in a futile attempt to stay up, £15m? That could have gone on the squad this summer with a settled management that our star players trusted.
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I don't think it is a line, it is what he believes. This will take some getting used to but he not playing games he is not sending messages to the board nor the dressing room these are his views not naively and randomly shared but thought through and clear.
Quality very obviously matters and how direct we are in possession is predicated by how good our players are in relative terms to the opposition. The squad even stripping out Johnstone and Pereira and not adding in a single player is still quite a bit better than the vast majority of squads in the Championship. Derby can barely field an XI. Yet most of our fans are having vapours at the prospect of fielding either Livermore or Sawyers two players who would improve most teams in the division and it is quite likely that we will strengthen as and when Johnstone and Pereira leave.
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I might be giving too much credit and we may have got here by accident. But, I think Ken might have made a very shrewd move. What do we get the VI?
- A fresh approach that has brought hope back to the fan-base.
- Finally someone who will trust our academy players (when warranted).
- A manager who does not spend anytime spinning against his employers and sulking when we refuse to buy another Krovinovic (or whoever).
- A transfer policy based on up and coming players. Clarke, Mowett are in the best 11 players in the Championship for example.
- A consistent playing style that all the players understand and follow.
Its going to be different, but if he gets off to a good start he could become an Atkinson/Megson fans favourite. Here's hoping!
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That’s the line that VI has come out with, I have my doubts. Quality counts at the end of the day and we were better set up for promotion two years ago. How much did we waste changing manager for half a season in a futile attempt to stay up, £15m? That could have gone on the squad this summer with a settled management that our star players trusted.
Not this again... Our management was anything but settled and should have been sacked last pre season.
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I see the 3 main priorities, a forward, midfielder and cover for the wing backs.
Phillips is an interesting forward option. Personally I think his skillset is more suited through the middle than out wide where he tends to be a one trick pony. He is also a decent finisher. However, 2 goals from 3 friendlies tells you we will struggle without a further reinforcement up front. I'm not at all convinced by Grant and neither am I sure that Tulloch can step up.
Midfield we could do with further creativity, assuming Pereira goes. Costa looks interesting, but may not be quite ready for a full season. At the same time we need a midfielder enforcer in there. I think we will miss Yokuslu, so making an effort to re-sign him would be a smart move. Its difficult to know where Livermore fits in. He is too slow at re-cycling the ball and very rarely spots a clever through pass. And I think its agreed that Yokuslu did a far better job as an enforcer.
Other than that, Furlong and Townsend look capable of doing a decent wing back job, but they need backup for unavailability.
I’m all for second, third and even fourth chances - especially when we know a player has ability. Virtually every manager looks at Phillips, sees a player, and thinks he can get a tune out of him.
Usually the song is in harmony about one or two matches in ten. I would be truly stunned and amazed if anything changes this late in his career, given there’s more than a decade’s worth of hard evidence about his performance levels.
The best players are consistent and even on a bad day don’t dip below a certain level. I’m afraid Phillips is quite the opposite, which is why he’s spent his career with clubs that get relegated rather than those higher up the food chain. Talent yes; consistently decent performances, not a chance.
Yes, I have given up on him. I kept hoping for a very long time because of his ability, but the hope expired eventually.
Relying on Phillips shows the poverty of our squad, especially up front.
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And therein lies the problem.
We are aware that the likes of Grant and Diangana are not good enough for the division above. I have reservations about Grant this season and I certainly think we need another forward. Sawyers, Livermore at al - Championship fodder and nothing more.
As it stands we have a competitive side but a promotion side? And even if we did it wouldn't be pretty next season.
Much still to do.
Over to you, Mr Lai....
Grant and Diangana weren't good enough last season, but if we go up they will be a little bit older and wiser and will have been there before. Grant may never make it, but Diangana never really got going again after his injury nearly two years ago, so I still hope he may be able to make the step up.
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Grant and Diangana weren't good enough last season, but if we go up they will be a little bit older and wiser and will have been there before. Grant may never make it, but Diangana never really got going again after his injury nearly two years ago, so I still hope he may be able to make the step up.
Both were fairly decent in there small spells in the Premier League before joining us. It's us that was the mess last season. Grant shouldn't have been used up top in the middle and then both were limited to just cameos once Allardyce was in and their confidence was shot. That is now rebuilding and may take a while.
They boys need to be given a chance and VI will give them that and it also looks like being on the bench and coming on in the front 3 is very important in VI's set up.
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Both were fairly decent in there small spells in the Premier League before joining us. It's us that was the mess last season. Grant shouldn't have been used up top in the middle and then both were limited to just cameos once Allardyce was in and their confidence was shot. That is now rebuilding and may take a while.
They boys need to be given a chance and VI will give them that and it also looks like being on the bench and coming on in the front 3 is very important in VI's set up.
I hate tempting fate, but I am actually backing them both to start paying back their inflated fees this year, the new start might just get them firing properly - let's hope VI can get them up for it
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I’m all for second, third and even fourth chances - especially when we know a player has ability. Virtually every manager looks at Phillips, sees a player, and thinks he can get a tune out of him.
Usually the song is in harmony about one or two matches in ten. I would be truly stunned and amazed if anything changes this late in his career, given there’s more than a decade’s worth of hard evidence about his performance levels.
The best players are consistent and even on a bad day don’t dip below a certain level. I’m afraid Phillips is quite the opposite, which is why he’s spent his career with clubs that get relegated rather than those higher up the food chain. Talent yes; consistently decent performances, not a chance.
Yes, I have given up on him. I kept hoping for a very long time because of his ability, but the hope expired eventually.
Relying on Phillips shows the poverty of our squad, especially up front.
I think two good games in ten is a harsh assesment of Phillips. Since the turn of the year, around the time Allardyce arrived, he has been putting in solid performances, getting through alot of work and sharp enough to set up alot of decent chances.
I think he was struggling more as a classic right winger. His stepover either came off or it didn't, but coming inside has made him more unpredictable. His change of pace helps set up more goal chances.
I don't for a minute think he is a classic target man, which I know alot of fans favour, but I'm more a fan of mobile No.9's that can also get in behind defenders.
At the same time, I think we need a further reinforcement up front, as to be honest, I'm not expecting a lot from Grant or Zohore.
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i dont get the need for a classic old fashioned center forward, I would much prefer a SKP type forward especially if we are pressing high up and getting the ball forward quickly via Diangana / Grant / Robinson.
Do we need to hold the ball up and wait for the HRK / Austin / Zohore types to arrive? don't think so.
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i dont get the need for a classic old fashioned center forward, I would much prefer a SKP type forward especially if we are pressing high up and getting the ball forward quickly via Diangana / Grant / Robinson.
Do we need to hold the ball up and wait for the HRK / Austin / Zohore types to arrive? don't think so.
Call them what you want. We need a consistent and hopefully prolific goalscorer. We don't have either at the moment.
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And therein lies the problem.
We are aware that the likes of Grant and Diangana are not good enough for the division above. I have reservations about Grant this season and I certainly think we need another forward. Sawyers, Livermore at al - Championship fodder and nothing more.
As it stands we have a competitive side but a promotion side? And even if we did it wouldn't be pretty next season.
Much still to do.
Over to you, Mr Lai....
It's horrible to acknowledge but without owners willing to finance the club from deep pockers all we can do is look 12 months ahead. We can't begin to consider if players are good enough for the PL. We need promotion for the money it brings in but unless VI really is special I can't see us being comptetive in the PL under these owners.
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Call them what you want. We need a consistent and hopefully prolific goalscorer. We don't have either at the moment.
I suspect CR played through the middle can cause some damage at this level.
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And therein lies the problem.
We are aware that the likes of Grant and Diangana are not good enough for the division above. I have reservations about Grant this season and I certainly think we need another forward. Sawyers, Livermore at al - Championship fodder and nothing more.
As it stands we have a competitive side but a promotion side? And even if we did it wouldn't be pretty next season.
Much still to do.
Over to you, Mr Lai....
Never going to happen, I am afraid that we are locked in purgatory for the forseeable future......
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i dont get the need for a classic old fashioned center forward, I would much prefer a SKP type forward especially if we are pressing high up and getting the ball forward quickly via Diangana / Grant / Robinson.
Do we need to hold the ball up and wait for the HRK / Austin / Zohore types to arrive? don't think so.
As I understand it, Valerien's targeted long ball style requires a central forward who's good at holding the ball up and can bring the other 2 forwards plus the wing-backs into play. I'm sure he wants this switch of play to usually happen quickly rather than slowly, but the basic requirement of holding the play up seems to be much the same regardless.
On the face of it we don't really have anyone who's good at doing this, so it makes me concerned when people say we only need to sign one central forward. Obviously getting more than one would probably require Zohore to leave (assuming Grant is to be regarded as the left-sided forward, which seems to be his best position), but I just can't see Zohore being up to the task in more than one respect.
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The big problem we have a long with most teams with a limited budget is that agents hold onto their players until the final days of the window and hope for better deals or a bidding war, Most of our deals will inevitably be in that time frame I'm afraid, like it or not.
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As I understand it, Valerien's targeted long ball style requires a central forward who's good at holding the ball up and can bring the other 2 forwards plus the wing-backs into play. I'm sure he wants this switch of play to usually happen quickly rather than slowly, but the basic requirement of holding the play up seems to be much the same regardless.
On the face of it we don't really have anyone who's good at doing this, so it makes me concerned when people say we only need to sign one central forward. Obviously getting more than one would probably require Zohore to leave (assuming Grant is to be regarded as the left-sided forward, which seems to be his best position), but I just can't see Zohore being up to the task in more than one respect.
I think that if Zohore is anywhere near the starting eleven then we are in trouble.
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there is a fair bit of discussion about VI and style of play, recruitment to facilitate the style etc, my biggest concern about this is the clubs hierarchy having the tenacity to stick with a style / plan having recruited to fulfill the managers requirements.
If when the inevitable difficult times happen, the board supports VI and shows patience, we will be ok I think, However there is nothing at all in our recent past to support this view with confidence, we know from history that they will react and look for a quick fix and a new manager will have a different set of requirements. thus plunging us into another cycle of chaotic change and re-build.
I really HOPE the 4 year contract is a sign of change and a more rigid commitment to a plan, HOPE is the the problem, heart says thats what they need to do, head says that they will revert to type. As we all know its the HOPE that kills you.
Time will tell, all we can do is get behind VI and his team and pray the club will do the same through the inevitable adversity when it comes.
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Just watched his post match Blues interview. Jeez does the guy come up for air! ;D
Well done Val, I’m confident about this season.
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I hope to god he isn't as calm as he makes out with his post match comments regarding a striker. Blues were trash today and will be in trouble if they play like that. We need a striker. I'm hoping his comments were so we don't come across as desperate in the market meaning clubs won't try to pull a fast one on us.
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I hope to god he isn't as calm as he makes out with his post match comments regarding a striker. Blues were trash today and will be in trouble if they play like that. We need a striker. I'm hoping his comments were so we don't come across as desperate in the market meaning clubs won't try to pull a fast one on us.
I think he might be serious.
Grant, Grady and Robinson are arguably the best front 3 in the league. Add to that Zohore who is a championship striker, Phillips who can cover across the 3. Wouldn’t be suprised if we strengthened other areas before a striker.
I’d still be looking for a bit nasty centre forward. Diagne would work well in this team.
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I think he is genuinely calm about the squad in general. I think there are a number of aspects to this.
At a basic level it is certainly better than the squads he was working with at LASK or Barnsley. He has a serviceable starting XI and everybody is fit or fairly close to being fit. Equally they seem to have embraced his philosophy and working hard both on and off the pitch. I suspect from his perspective this is far more important than one or two additional signings.
As a club insider he will have a much better understanding of the state of play with regard comings and goings so it is easier for him to be philosophical about these matters than a fan who is clinging to every little bit of click bait on the internet for an update. As such he can park recruitment in the big pile of things he can't do anything about and focus on the things that he can do something about e.g. working with the players he has got rather than fretting about the ones he hasn't got
However almost regardless of what he might think about the squad he is going to be calm in his public statements. To do anything else runs counter to his coaching philosophy.
As a coach he demands a lot form his players and part of the deal is in return he isn't going to throw them under the bus even by implication. He might have 5 games with this squad before the window closes and he has to get the best performances out of it he can and he does not do that by suggesting that he doesn't have faith in them. The team sheet will tell it's own story but the players have to believe that he believes in them.
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Excellent post, Stan.
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At a basic level it is certainly better than the squads he was working with at LASK or Barnsley.
I agree with everything else that you said, but his LASK squad won their group stage and got into the Round of 16 in the Europa League (beating PSV, Sporting Lisbon, Rosenborg and AZ Alkmaar in the process). Are you suggesting our squad would be capable of that?
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Well put Stan. Great summary.
Might I also add to the mix that we supporters have a role to play and should also try to show faith in the selected players on the pitch. It's not going to be easy to try to suppress our normal moaning attitude to certain players and some of us will never take to some players regardless of how things go for them, but maybe a little less vocally critical and a bit more vocally supportive during the games might help.
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The LASK performance in the Europa League Group was possibly one of the single biggest over performances in European competition in the last decade. It was not a case of a small club suddenly unearthing a generation of talent that subsequently being picked off by bigger clubs. Looking at the squad most are still playing at LASK or at a lower level and not a single one of the players is currently playing at any level significantly higher than the Austrian Bundesliga.
In terms of quality you absolutely wouldn't expect them to win promotion from the Championship and haven't replicated the Europa League performances.
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I know its only a friendly but it does seem that the squad are buying into his philosophy and way of playing. In terms of first 11 we need strengthening but its quality on the bench and squad thats most glaring. Last season Val used his 5 subs in a lot of games and with the high press and intensity we will need to utilize the squad. It's not urgent but by Sept 1 we will need a few additions.
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While I'm getting nervous about the budget and our ability to recruit players I think we need, I'm getting more and more confident in Ismael. Something about him feels quite special. His ability to improve average players is making me think he could add some real value to our youth players while also helping the likes of Zohore and Grant to have some impact.
Early days, but it's looking like an inspired choice of manager.
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While I'm getting nervous about the budget and our ability to recruit players I think we need, I'm getting more and more confident in Ismael. Something about him feels quite special. His ability to improve average players is making me think he could add some real value to our youth players while also helping the likes of Zohore and Grant to have some impact.
Early days, but it's looking like an inspired choice of manager.
Agree with this - we also have a clearly defined style of play which we have not had since Pulis.
It is clear we’re going to press and it’s clear it’s going to be aggressive. There will be no half measures.
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With the season about to get underway I'm a little apprehensive about our chances for automatic promotion. Don't think we have strengthened at top of park to get us in top two. Ishmael prove me wrong :P
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I think he might be serious.
Grant, Grady and Robinson are arguably the best front 3 in the league. Add to that Zohore who is a championship striker, Phillips who can cover across the 3. Wouldn’t be suprised if we strengthened other areas before a striker.
I’d still be looking for a bit nasty centre forward. Diagne would work well in this team.
I would argue sheff utd Fulham and even Bournemouth have A better front 3 than ours
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I suspect CR played through the middle can cause some damage at this level.
I keep reading that and thinking "Cristiano Ronaldo" and agreeing.
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There is an article this morning in the Telegraph by Jonh Percy who interviewed Valérie, but it’s behind a paywall.
Does anyone have a subscription and, if so, would you post it here for other members to read please?
Ps the article is titled “ 'I want us to be horrible to play': Valerien Ismael on revolutionising West Brom for a promotion pushâ€
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I did just post it but then remembered someone said it's dodgy to do so? Can anyone clarify if it's ok to copy and paste it, if so i will repaste it.
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You've paid for the content it is entirely yours to do what you wish to do with it. Obviously out of courtesy to the author acknowledge the source. It may inspire others to take up a subscription to the Telegraph.
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I did just post it but then remembered someone said it's dodgy to do so? Can anyone clarify if it's ok to copy and paste it, if so i will repaste it.
Think I’m right in saying the admin are happy for you to copy and paste the story, it’s when people just post the link to the story I think annoys them…
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Ok thanks both, here we are then, from John Percy of The Telegraph :-
It is almost three months since West Bromwich Albion dropped out of the Premier League, but the Valérien Ismaël revolution is already in full swing.
He is sitting high up in the Hawthorns’ Smethwick End outlining his philosophy and vision for the future, and it instantly becomes clear that Albion’s new head coach means business.
Since his appointment in June, Ismaël has grabbed West Brom by the shirt collar and given the club an almighty shake, removing any lethargy and disappointment after relegation.
They start the Championship campaign on Friday against Bournemouth with Ismaël’s reputation high after taking Barnsley to the play-offs last season, utilising a relentlessly energetic, super-pressing approach which was the equivalent of a bludgeon to the senses of opponents.
West Brom will be one of the favourites to achieve promotion and under Ismaël, they aim to become a team nobody will want to face.
“It’s all about high-intensity on the pitch, being unpleasant for the opponent and giving everything for 90 minutes,†he says.
“In our stadium, with our fans, it has to be horrible for the opponent. We have to create an atmosphere of fear when they come here.
“Togetherness is very important and we need everyone. When one slips, we are dead - that is the motto.
“Only a few teams, like Manchester City, Barcelona and Real Madrid, are able to dominate the opponent in possession. My teams are able to dominate any team with intensity, and it doesn’t matter who we are playing.â€
Ismaël is an impressive man, speaking with clarity and total conviction in his philosophy. A former centre-back in his playing days, at nearly 6ft 4in he is someone you want to keep happy.
He is also big on discipline, and made it clear days into his tenure that he would not tolerate any hangover from last season, when West Brom finished second-bottom with only five league wins.
Matheus Pereira, the Brazilian winger, has been frozen out in pre-season after informing the club of his desire to leave.
“We told the players very early on to forget what happened last season,†says Ismaël. “This is a restart for everyone. We are looking forward and it’s clear we need everyone in or out.
“When you are in, it’s 100 per cent. If you’re out, you’re out. We want to work with people who want to work with us and are proud to play for West Brom. This is what I want to see and the message is clear.â€
Ismaël will be 46 in September and has worked as a manager for nearly a decade, with a wide breadth of experiences.
He has fought for promotion in Germany with Vfl Wolfsburg II, guided Austrian club LASK to the round of 16 in the Europa League [where they were beaten by Manchester United] before last season’s remarkable turnaround of Barnsley.
“I believe in my philosophy and over the last two years I’ve played 100 games with it at every level from Champions League qualification, the Europa League group stage and Championship,†he says.
“It’s a journey as a manager. You start the work, you fail or get rejection, then stand up and go again to improve your skills.
“I always knew how difficult it was to do this job but you stay strong and true to yourself.
“I’ve learned so much already. The big difference as a player is that you’re focused on just yourself, staying fit and recovery. As a manager you are responsible for everyone else.â€
His achievements at Barnsley, losing narrowly over two legs in the play-off semi-final against Swansea, were inevitably going to attract interest from rival clubs.
Crystal Palace considered him in their managerial search before appointing Patrick Vieira, but it was West Brom who paid the £2 million compensation fee. Their commitment to him was underlined by the decision to offer a four-year contract.
“Barnsley was a successful story. It was always my dream to work in English football,†he says.
“It was the right choice and now West Brom is the next logical step forward for me as a manager.
“The intensity will not change, whether it is Barnsley or West Brom. The difference [here] is the squad and its quality. My expectation is that we will have more possession here than Barnsley.â€
Ismaël has inherited a squad with a blend of experience and emerging young talent, though some fans do have concerns over the depth.
He has high hopes for record £20 million signing Grady Diangana (“he has huge quality, it could be a massive season for himâ€) and midfielder Alex Mowatt (“the exact profile of player we needâ€), who signed from Barnsley on a free transfer.
Pre-season has been meticulously planned, with short training sessions lasting usually 45 minutes. His players have to be super-fit to play under him, while he expects total professionalism away from the club.
Ismaël is also very reliant on data and analytics, offering a fascinating insight into his philosophy.
“We play 3-4-3 and all the players - the three centre-halves, wing-backs, the No. 6 and front-three - need to hit numbers to make sure we have that intensity,†he says.
“The numbers will be total distance, high-speed and sprinting. After that you have another measure which is the player load.
“When I choose a player he must not drop below the average line. If they do, the question is are they injured or unfit, or do we need another one.
“This is my way to success and the good thing with the data is that you don’t need finance, or an agent telling you things, it’s about finding the right player for the position.â€
Ismaël has fully immersed himself into his new role. Days after his appointment he watched the documentary “Full Throstle†which details the history of the club. He has also met with representatives from The Albion Foundation, the club’s official charity partner.
He lives in nearby Sutton Coldfield, with his family - wife Karolina and daughters Lupita and Cataleya - remaining in Munich, though they are expected to attend the first home game against Luton.
The Ismaël revolution will be televised on Friday, as the 46-game slog begins. “It’s a tough, crazy, but interesting league. There are so many ways to play,†he says.
“Sometimes it’s just about set-pieces so we need to adapt and be flexible. We need to become a more complete team.
“We have the squad to do this and we’ll be completely ready against Bournemouth."
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Masi believes we are still trying to recruit striker and midfielder while Val is happy with what he's got. Think owner will try and placate fans with new arrival.
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In todays E+S it states VI is happy with the squad but would like a striker, Delap is one he would be keen on if made available.
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Thank you for posting the Telegraph article gazberg, much appreciated 👍
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Thank you for posting the Telegraph article gazberg, much appreciated 👍
No worries mate, hope you found something interesting in it!
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Does anyone know where 'Full Throstle' is available. I don't think i've seen it. A quick google search didnt seem to help.
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Does anyone know where 'Full Throstle' is available. I don't think i've seen it. A quick google search didnt seem to help.
My google fu shows 1 available on Ebay
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/1809263841
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My google fu shows 1 available on Ebay
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/1809263841
Thank you.
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Notice he says wingbacks and no. 6 when apparently they're wide midfielders and we're not using a 6 it'll be a double 8...
:) :P
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Thanks for posting that article Gazberg. Good reading, he's certainly a captivating and engaging individual. Can't wait to see his starting 11 and how we do tonight. We may need patience but hopefully we enjoy what we see.
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Notice he says wingbacks and no. 6 when apparently they're wide midfielders and we're not using a 6 it'll be a double 8...
:) :P
Heathen 8)
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Good luck for tonight Val. I'm super excited and impressed with everything so far, I just hope the fans and hierarchy are patient when things get bumpy.
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Its going to be a challenge getting a whole new ethos embedded especially with older players who have "seen them come and seen them go"
Everyone has to have patience, the club have given a 4 year contract so we have to hope they will be supportive and we have a huge role in that, an agitated crowd / fan base can precipitate action, so lets all get on board, Vals blue and white Army !
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Definitely going to be an interesting season ahead regardless. Hopefully it's a successful one. COYB!
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I am cautiously optimistic.
I wouldn't have fancied us with our existing squad with any of the other candidates we were linked to but VI polished a serious turd last season with Barnsley so with slightly better players, if they buy into it, you have to be hopeful of top two.
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Would I be right in saying yesterday was a combination of Klopp meets Pulis? :o
Entertaining football but also very unusual, I haven't seen anything like it before.
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Getting the ball forward into the danger are puts pressure on opponents.
Doing it quickly and economically creates better chances. Taking the chances is the issue for us perhaps. :)
Set pieces are meant to give advantage to the team awarded them, so trying to make the most of these sorts of chances is best practice.
Getting the ball away from danger when defending is a number one priority. Best case is it sets up a quick counter attack creating a chance to score. Probably needs some work
Basic simple soccer facts. Making it simple is essential for the present day player who seems in general to need his thinking done for him. :-*
Above all is the essential core fitness to carry out these relatively simple tasks consistently and for the whole game. This is what WBA are working for at the moment.
Need to do more work on the 'winning' of free kicks and getting opponents punished for their 'misdemeanours'. An absolutely essential part of modern soccer. Maybe need to import specialist coaches from Brazil Italy, or Spain. Each has its own area of specialised activity so perhaps a combination of all three might help. If we can't afford this then having video loops of Fulham Bournemouth Spurs matches analysed and replayed for a couple of hours after training every days compulsory viewing >:(
Definitely not Pulisball. :P
What is not to like? ;D
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Getting the ball forward into the danger are puts pressure on opponents.
Doing it quickly and economically creates better chances.
Set pieces are meant to give advantage to the team awarded them, so trying to make the most of these sorts of chances is best practice.
Getting the ball away from danger when defending is a number one priority.
Definitely not Pulisball.
Okay, if you say not. It sounds like the exact definition of Pulisball, to me,
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This quote from https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/08/09/valerien-ismael-ready-to-ring-changes-for-west-broms-season/
We know we have five very good centre-backs. In that area, we have the choice to pick the player we need.
made me wonder which centre-backs he's been watching and why he hasn't selected them. Of the five I know about - Bartley, Dara, Ajayi, Kipre, and Clark - three are error-prone and three are (IMO) too slow to play his system.
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Okay, if you say not. It sounds like the exact definition of Pulisball, to me,
It is Pulisbal in the sense that Pulis believes in getting the ball forward quickly, i.e. no build up from the back, lots of getting the ball into the opposition box from dead ball situations such as long throws.
However, there is one crucial difference. Pulis relied on a lone target man striker who had little or no support, whilst most of the team sat deep around their own penalty area. VI believes in 3 forwards and in getting numbers forward in support. So although the ball goes forward quickly, more of the game is concentrated in the opponents half. VI is effectively trying to box the opponents into their own half.
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This quote from https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/08/09/valerien-ismael-ready-to-ring-changes-for-west-broms-season/made me wonder which centre-backs he's been watching and why he hasn't selected them. Of the five I know about - Bartley, Dara, Ajayi, Kipre, and Clark - three are error-prone and three are (IMO) too slow to play his system.
Well let's face it, on our budget they are as good as we could attract. Bartley will be key and is the natural leader in the line. Dara continues to improve and is a decent all round defender. Semi has the pace but his passing last season was dangerous at times and that's why Clarke was bought in, he isn't as quick but can hit a pass. Without Clarke it was Kipre given this job. Do they all have an error in them/lack of pace? Yes. Will we see moments of calamity defending this season? Probably. Between them should they offer enough periods of competent defending to challenge at this level? Hopefully.
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Apart from having 3 fast cb the defensive midfielder should also be very fast
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It is Pulisbal in the sense that Pulis believes in getting the ball forward quickly, i.e. no build up from the back, lots of getting the ball into the opposition box from dead ball situations such as long throws.
However, there is one crucial difference. Pulis relied on a lone target man striker who had little or no support, whilst most of the team sat deep around their own penalty area. VI believes in 3 forwards and in getting numbers forward in support. So although the ball goes forward quickly, more of the game is concentrated in the opponents half. VI is effectively trying to box the opponents into their own half.
Agree on this. Rondon was often thirty or forty yards away from the nearest teammate when the ball was hit in his general.direction as Pullis played first and foremost not to lose, rather than to win.
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It is Pulisbal in the sense that Pulis believes in getting the ball forward quickly, i.e. no build up from the back, lots of getting the ball into the opposition box from dead ball situations such as long throws.
I'd forgotten the long throws...
You can add 54% pass completion to the mix as well (I didn't count them myself, just a figure I've seen elsewhere).
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Tony Pulis likes all of his players to be in their own half with one striker lost up front. Ismael likes the entire side to be in the oppositions half with our defenders now playing on the half way line. Kyle Bartley and O'Shea at Bournemouth were positioned were Rondon was under Pulis. Complete switch thank god.
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We now press with people in front of the ball, Pulis was all about men behind the ball.
Chalk and cheese.
Set pieces are an asset to ANY formation, that’s why diving is so prevalent, so no complaints from me re the long throws, I’d rather be watching their defenders panic than ours.
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Having watched the first game and not having much knowledge yet, about this system, I would say the system relies heavily on a sweeping goalkeeper bearing in mind the gap behind our back three.
The ball into the corners caused us trouble first game and would think that as to be worked on but we caused Bournemouth all kinds of trouble in our first competitive match with this system away from home, although you would have thought we were the home side with the pressing, it looks very promising.
Pulisball!, I don't think so.
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There is one similarity with Pulisball is that is very direct and does look to set pieces to generate chances. However there is a huge differences to the safety first approach of Pulis. The movement is completely different players get forward almost recklessly on turnover. Rather than waiting to make sure there is cover in place they have license to join the attack.
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There is one similarity with Pulisball is that is very direct and does look to set pieces to generate chances. However there is a huge differences to the safety first approach of Pulis. The movement is completely different players get forward almost recklessly on turnover. Rather than waiting to make sure there is cover in place they have license to join the attack.
If you're saying that the key thing that makes a style "Pulisball" is a safety first approach, would you also consider Mourinho a Pullisball exponent? Dour football seems to be his thing too (at Chelsea, ManU, Tottenham their fans and others complained about it). Gary Megson? He was a big fan 1-0s.
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If you're saying that the key thing that makes a style "Pulisball" is a safety first approach, would you also consider Mourinho a Pullisball exponent? Dour football seems to be his thing too (at Chelsea, ManU, Tottenham their fans and others complained about it). Gary Megson? He was a big fan 1-0s.
Pullis played not to lose, rarely to win, regardless of opposition. That's what became so painful, it was the same against Bournemouth as Man City. No ambition. No flair. No fun.
Mourihno became a rich man's Pullis no doubt. He has become a parody of the wonderful young manager who fought against the odds to win the CL and then turn Chelsea into a behemoth. Playing not to lose when you have wonderful attacking players at your disposal....he has failed dismally in his last appointments.
Meggo's Albion were a different beast to what TP offered. In the champ his team's could attack and often went at teams from the off, and he bought in some good attacking options, but once we scored they were able to shut up shop. Door locked and no stress.
The difference is intent. VI's Albion may be more direct (and frantic) but there is no doubt there is intent to attack.
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In my recollection Meggos team were based on "we're harder / tougher/ more tenacious and if necessary resolute than you are, but we can also play a bit as well" Meggo could adapt to the situation whereas Tony "the coward" Pulis .....
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Anyone who thought the Bournemouth game was Pulisesque needs popping into a food blender set on max' before being poured down a plug hole. Nothing personal and all that.
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Anyone who thought the Bournemouth game was Pulisesque needs popping into a food blender set on max' before being poured down a plug hole. Nothing personal and all that.
Ha,ha, well done Dan - absolutely no comparison. I can’t think of anything that would remind me of a Pullis style of team - except, except possibly fitness!?
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Well there were the ridiculous time consuming long throw routines, although even they weren't truly TPesque as Delap actually used to be a threat from them, whereas Townsend can barely reach.
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Well there were the ridiculous time consuming long throw routines, although even they weren't truly TPesque as Delap actually used to be a threat from them, whereas Townsend can barely reach.
We did get a goal as a result of a Townsend throw, not directly but still created the opportunity.
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Well there were the ridiculous time consuming long throw routines, although even they weren't truly TPesque as Delap actually used to be a threat from them, whereas Townsend can barely reach.
It was a cunning plan by Townsend. The cleared throw in sat up lovely for him to cross the ball for O'Shea's header. Credit where it's due...... baller that lad ;D .
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But has VI got the players working aaard?
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Pullis played not to lose, rarely to win, regardless of opposition. That's what became so painful, it was the same against Bournemouth as Man City. No ambition. No flair. No fun.
Mourihno became a rich man's Pullis no doubt. He has become a parody of the wonderful young manager who fought against the odds to win the CL and then turn Chelsea into a behemoth. Playing not to lose when you have wonderful attacking players at your disposal....he has failed dismally in his last appointments.
Meggo's Albion were a different beast to what TP offered. In the champ his team's could attack and often went at teams from the off, and he bought in some good attacking options, but once we scored they were able to shut up shop. Door locked and no stress.
The difference is intent. VI's Albion may be more direct (and frantic) but there is no doubt there is intent to attack.
Coloured specs here with Mourinho and his early days . His Porto side were one of the biggest bunch of divers and con artists seen and probably one of the first to do it en masse . It has left a legacy still prevalent in Portuguese football today e.g breathe out on Moutinho and it loos like you have a collapsed lung on your hands at the very least !
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Well there were the ridiculous time consuming long throw routines, although even they weren't truly TPesque as Delap actually used to be a threat from them, whereas Townsend can barely reach.
;D ;D ;D I couldn’t help but laugh at Townesend’s ‘attempts’
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There is one similarity with Pulisball is that is very direct and does look to set pieces to generate chances. However there is a huge differences to the safety first approach of Pulis. The movement is completely different players get forward almost recklessly on turnover. Rather than waiting to make sure there is cover in place they have license to join the attack.
Since yesterday's game, there have been a number of references to VI's tactics in player topics.
I think I've said before, that I have no detailed knowledge of tactical moves, but I can see the outcomes..................
I can see the benefits of moving the ball quickly from front to back, but even under Pulis the long ball was aimed at a target. Under this regime, all I'm seeing is a long ball played into space in the hope that someone will pick it up.
To be honest, at the moment, I'm not seeing scintillating football, 3 of our 5 goals so far have come from set pieces.
If I'm missing nuances, can somebody explain please?
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Since yesterday's game, there have been a number of references to VI's tactics in player topics.
I think I've said before, that I have no detailed knowledge of tactical moves, but I can see the outcomes..................
I can see the benefits of moving the ball quickly from front to back, but even under Pulis the long ball was aimed at a target. Under this regime, all I'm seeing is a long ball played into space in the hope that someone will pick it up.
To be honest, at the moment, I'm not seeing scintillating football, 3 of our 5 goals so far have come from set pieces.
If I'm missing nuances, can somebody explain please?
I think you make a fair point. It is very early days though and I feel things will evolve as time goes by.
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Since yesterday's game, there have been a number of references to VI's tactics in player topics.
I think I've said before, that I have no detailed knowledge of tactical moves, but I can see the outcomes..................
I can see the benefits of moving the ball quickly from front to back, but even under Pulis the long ball was aimed at a target. Under this regime, all I'm seeing is a long ball played into space in the hope that someone will pick it up.
To be honest, at the moment, I'm not seeing scintillating football, 3 of our 5 goals so far have come from set pieces.
If I'm missing nuances, can somebody explain please?
If you want to see the ball played out from the back and through the lines you wont like Valball. I understand people have different preferences on how they like to see the game played.
The Pulis references are unfair though. Pulis set up deep and to contain, Ismael is completely different, high line, front foot. Far more aggressive intent.
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If you want to see the ball played out from the back and through the lines you wont like Valball. I understand people have different preferences on how they like to see the game played.
The Pulis references are unfair though. Pulis set up deep and to contain, Ismael is completely different, high line, front foot. Far more aggressive intent.
As I said, in my original post, I might be missing nuances. I'm trying not to take any side at the moment, just trying to understand what the objectives are.
Pulis wasn't my favorite manager, but his philosophies were pretty simple to understand, as you say, contain, & a long outball to a target man. In that context, I don't think the comparison is unfair.
I understand the principle of a high line & to some extent, the press, but what I expected to see was a rapid fire passing game, not sure I'm seeing that.
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Regarding references to TP we had 18 shots of which 6 were on target. VI goes with 3 forwards. If someone could point out to me when TP did that I would be grateful.
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Early days yet 4 points from two games isn’t a bad start, complacency after going three nil up and lengthy injury probably caused a lack of concentration throughout team. Substitutions didn’t work at all yesterday especially Zohore so hopefully coach will learn from that.
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I think baggiejohn has made some perfectly reasonable points. I think we will pick up plenty of points playing like this, but it’s not going to be without its faults.
After Peterborough we will have played 6 competitive games and the window will be closing so it will be interesting to see where we are at that point. Will IS be trying to adjust the blueprint to better players or if we are heading towards Barnsley 2.0.
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As I said, in my original post, I might be missing nuances. I'm trying not to take any side at the moment, just trying to understand what the objectives are.
Pulis wasn't my favorite manager, but his philosophies were pretty simple to understand, as you say, contain, & a long outball to a target man. In that context, I don't think the comparison is unfair.
I understand the principle of a high line & to some extent, the press, but what I expected to see was a rapid fire passing game, not sure I'm seeing that.
You know how in rugby, a team might kick the ball away to pin the opposition back, and hope to win it back in a better position?
That's what Valball is about.
If we play calculated balls into the channels, we force the opposition to play through us, and then we use the press to win the ball high up the pitch and attack them when the opposition are disorganised. You're at your most vulnerable when you've just lost the ball, and it is what VI builds his tactics around.
So don't expect fast paced passing, as I don't think we'll see so much of it, but when we do win the ball back it will be direct and O would argue exciting.
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There’s more than one way to skin a cat.
I found yesterday to be a thoroughly exciting afternoon.
Any comparison to Pulis is unfair - he’s a million miles apart in style and more importantly attitude.
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Am having a mental breakdown trying to see how Valball is the same as Pulisball! Valball is direct and aggressive. Pulisball is direct but safe safe safe.
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There’s more than one way to skin a cat.
I found yesterday to be a thoroughly exciting afternoon.
Any comparison to Pulis is unfair - he’s a million miles apart in style and more importantly attitude.
Agreed. Think we are in for an ossie ardiles type season personally
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Biggest problem he is going to have to address is when teams get round to playing 451 against us. Our central m/f will then be outnumbered and their wide players will be able to run beyond the wing backs knowing they have cover behind them . I think this is what Luton tried to do 2nd half by bringing Lansbury on.
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Am having a mental breakdown trying to see how Valball is the same as Pulisball! Valball is direct and aggressive. Pulisball is direct but safe safe safe.
Really wouldn't want you to have a mental breakdown on my behalf.
The key word in my argument is "understanding"
I'm not defending Pulis philosophies, just saying I understand them better than I understand VI's.
Mark has put a bit of meat on the bones for me, so maybe I have a better understanding now.
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The main difference for me is that VI sets out his teams to win. Pulis sets up his teams to try not to lose. Totally different mentality.
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Really wouldn't want you to have a mental breakdown on my behalf.
The key word in my argument is "understanding"
I'm not defending Pulis philosophies, just saying I understand them better than I understand VI's.
Mark has put a bit of meat on the bones for me, so maybe I have a better understanding now.
I'll be honest John i've not replied to any post you have made on this subject so rest assured i won't be having one on your behalf. My post was a tad dramatic but i really don't get the comparison in general
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Biggest problem he is going to have to address is when teams get round to playing 451 against us. Our central m/f will then be outnumbered and their wide players will be able to run beyond the wing backs knowing they have cover behind them . I think this is what Luton tried to do 2nd half by bringing Lansbury on.
I think towards the end of the game, Luton were playing a modified 442. Both teams were playing a high line & the field of play from front to back was very narrow. At one stage Luton had 6 players all in a defensive line, with 2 up front on the shoulder of our defence. They were trying to launch balls into the space behind our defence for their forwards to run onto.
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The football we put together for the first hour yesterday was some of the most dominating play I've seen for a long while. Luton were close to crumbling altogether. You could see that on their faces when waiting for the next corner. We should have put the game to bed then.
However, lets not kid ourselves we can play like that for 90 minutes. No team can keep up that intensity all game. Even the likes of Man City or Bayern Munich take their foot off the gas, but what's important is what the team does then. Subs are necessary, but you can't sub the whole team, so the team has to learn to keep possession whilst they are taking a breather.
But we do need sufficient squad depth to make effective subs. Most of all, we need another forward with goalscoring instinct and cover for Mowatt/Livermore, as neither are going to play 46 games.
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Its funny because if you watch Brentford on friday night you can see similarities. Everyone talks about how they play lovely football but they benefited from the high press, long throws, set pieces and playing quickly into a target man (Toney).
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If you want to see the ball played out from the back and through the lines you wont like Valball. I understand people have different preferences on how they like to see the game played.
The Pulis references are unfair though. Pulis set up deep and to contain, Ismael is completely different, high line, front foot. Far more aggressive intent.
Very good analysis. Along with MarkW’s analogy with rugby. Agree with both of you, and there aren’t really many tactical similarities with a Pulis approach.
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When Val plays 2 six foot centre halves at full back and 6 defenders in the first 11 then we can start talking...
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Really wouldn't want you to have a mental breakdown on my behalf.
The key word in my argument is "understanding"
I'm not defending Pulis philosophies, just saying I understand them better than I understand VI's.
Mark has put a bit of meat on the bones for me, so maybe I have a better understanding now.
I think our 3rd goal yesterday was an example of the pressing of the opposition in the final 3rd into mistakes and then swarming them. It was great to watch. Loved it!
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I am loving the football VI is getting us to play. Loving his pride in the fans. If we fail to be promoted it will be because of the owners unwillingness to expand our threadbare squad. She Utd, Fulham and Bournemouth will have all out spent us by the end of the window.
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I am loving the football VI is getting us to play. Loving his pride in the fans. If we fail to be promoted it will be because of the owners unwillingness to expand our threadbare squad. She Utd, Fulham and Bournemouth will have all out spent us by the end of the window.
dont give a toss about the amount spent, far more important is that we build to a plan with the correct players for that plan, Give me a free Mowatt over a £4-8m Zohore all day long
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dont give a toss about the amount spent, far more important is that we build to a plan with the correct players for that plan, Give me a free Mowatt over a £4-8m Zohore all day long
GMac on a free over Rodgers or whatever his name was over in Tangerineville every day of the week. Quality (hopefully) over price tag for me too. Just as well really ;D .
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dont give a toss about the amount spent, far more important is that we build to a plan with the correct players for that plan, Give me a free Mowatt over a £4-8m Zohore all day long
That still doesn't address the fact that the squad is light weight and we need 2 or 3 more players. Saying you don't give a toss about spending but getting the correct players is the most important thing is just saying get good players rather than bad ones. I think we are more likely to get good players if we spend some money. At the moment we haven't bought anyone.If just bringing in players on a free was the best way to build a team no clubs would buy any players.
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Face the facts; we are not a club that can compete in the market for the best players. Therefore we must buy smart by picking up players that the moneyed teams haven't spotted by the use of more comprehensive stats like Brentford OR we must develop and keep our own players (and if possible even conceal them.) This transition can only be over two or three seasons. That's why VI has got a long term contract and why he's not forking out cash on footballers(!?) like Zohore.
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Face the facts; we are not a club that can compete in the market for the best players. Therefore we must buy smart by picking up players that the moneyed teams haven't spotted by the use of more comprehensive stats like Brentford OR we must develop and keep our own players (and if possible even conceal them.) This transition can only be over two or three seasons. That's why VI has got a long term contract and why he's not forking out cash on footballers(!?) like Zohore.
I don't disagree with that but we haven't bought anyone, Nada, Zilch, surely with gaping holes in our squad and having sold MP we could buy someone?We have two seasons of parachute money then we are in big trouble to compete with the other relegated clubs and better funded ones like Bournemouth. Im not asking for Harry Kane just another striker and midfielder. Not a lot to ask is it?
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The football we put together for the first hour yesterday was some of the most dominating play I've seen for a long while. Luton were close to crumbling altogether. You could see that on their faces when waiting for the next corner. We should have put the game to bed then.
However, lets not kid ourselves we can play like that for 90 minutes. No team can keep up that intensity all game. Even the likes of Man City or Bayern Munich take their foot off the gas, but what's important is what the team does then. Subs are necessary, but you can't sub the whole team, so the team has to learn to keep possession whilst they are taking a breather.
But we do need sufficient squad depth to make effective subs. Most of all, we need another forward with goalscoring instinct and cover for Mowatt/Livermore, as neither are going to play 46 games.
You are right about that, but what worried me on Saturday is that we turned into a Sunday league side towards the end. Having battered Luton we did not seem to have a plan B regarding possession and game management.
Also, the Achilles heel is the long ball counter attack. Saw it once on Saturday but thankfully it came to nothing. A team with pace and skill will be our downfall and I am just wondering how many times we are going to accept that.
On the Luton site they called the first half blitzkreig football and thought they were lucky to go in 2-0 down. Thought it should have been 5 or 6!
It’s interesting, I will give Vi credit for that😂
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Do we know how Barnsley played in the last 20 minutes of games under Val? Did they change their style of play in the last quarter of a match? Any stats on goals conceded in the latter part of games? Val must know the issues around playing this way. I presume he doesn't just tell the lads to go out as hard as possible for as long as possible and then just keep his fingers crossed we are far enough in front. Maybe this is what he meant by "we don't need the best the players just the right players"?
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Do we know how Barnsley played in the last 20 minutes of games under Val? Did they change their style of play in the last quarter of a match? Any stats on goals conceded in the latter part of games? Val must know the issues around playing this way. I presume he doesn't just tell the lads to go out as hard as possible for as long as possible and then just keep his fingers crossed we are far enough in front. Maybe this is what he meant by "we don't need the best the players just the right players"?
I think the key for last season was he was able to use 5 subs, to keep the team on the pitch as fresh as possible.
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Also, the Achilles heel is the long ball counter attack. Saw it once on Saturday but thankfully it came to nothing. A team with pace and skill will be our downfall and I am just wondering how many times we are going to accept that.
26 wins and 41 goals conceded in 40 games at Barnsley last season doesn't suggest that his style of play got exposed very often then.
However, as tambag has said, Valerien was able to use 5 subs last season, so how well he can adjust to only being able to use 3 will be crucial. A significant part of that, of course, is who the 3 are - they absolutely mustn't be players who aren't up to the task (e.g. Zohore) or someone filling in in a position where they don't usually play. Players coming on need to fit into the system seamlessly and effectively, otherwise it can easily go to pot.
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I think the key for last season was he was able to use 5 subs, to keep the team on the pitch as fresh as possible.
So has he made any adaptions to the 90 minute plan for the team. He must have planned for the change in substitution rules. Val does also seem to rely on player stats and analysis, so he must have some strategy for the tiredness of players as the game progresses. Maybe I am giving him too much credit or maybe we just don't have the right players, all I know for sure is we don't have enough players.
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Bearing in mind that this was game 2 of a complete culture change for most of these players, I think we have been superb. I was fully prepared for a rocky start, given the drastic change in approach, so 4 points and 5 goals has exceeded my expectations and we will only get better. Our fitness and game management will improve as the players get used to the system and learn to manage their own, in-game, fitness levels.
We still have Reach, Snodgrass, Tulloch and Castro, who have yet to feature, and I have no doubt that we will see new recruits in the next week or so things are looking good I reckon. :)
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In today's local papers they have articles up where VI says he's not worried yet. Still 2 weeks left for transfers. Says he is aware of what is needed. Have a list of players being worked on.
If we stuck with Zohore it would have been suicidal
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Face the facts; we are not a club that can compete in the market for the best players. Therefore we must buy smart by picking up players that the moneyed teams haven't spotted by the use of more comprehensive stats like Brentford OR we must develop and keep our own players (and if possible even conceal them.) This transition can only be over two or three seasons. That's why VI has got a long term contract and why he's not forking out cash on footballers(!?) like Zohore.
You missed the other bit, which is when we are lucky to get the best players we sell them on at 50% of their value in murky deals. Every month that goes buy under this set-up and I fear we are becoming more like Birmingham City.
I don't agree with you by the way that this is a three year transition. In that case we should have kept Bilic and made that decision a year ago. Fact is, we have one season, two max before we run out of parachute payments, at which point we will sink into championship oblivion. So it's get back up asap or get ready for 10-15 years at this level, watching other relegated clubs come down, keep their best players and doing a Norwich / Watford every season.
VI may have a long contract, but we haven't got time for project. He needs to get us up and should be knocking on Ken's for demanding money to bring better players in.
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You really need to get over that Bilic is not here - he was a dead man walking who had no relationship with the board. His days here were numbered and there was not a prayer of him remaining beyond last season.
Ismael will have a remit of getting us up in two years - just like his predecessors. This is a poor division of sides who are severely limited financially. I have seen nothing yet (aside from Fulham) that poses me any cause for concern for the season ahead. Our current crop have reacted well to Ismael’s style and the squad requires some fine tuning. Couple of additions and we’ll be there.
The interesting issue for the club will be to see their reaction if we’re promoted and things aren’t going well. Then we’ll see how committed they are to thisplan
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I never believed the two year plan bs. Just like I don’t believe the words from VI’s mouth mean we aren’t working on deals.
It’s all about managing expectations and man management. What go does it do for VI to publically say he needs players then ask those here to run through walls for him.
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You missed the other bit, which is when we are lucky to get the best players we sell them on at 50% of their value in murky deals. Every month that goes buy under this set-up and I fear we are becoming more like Birmingham City.
I don't agree with you by the way that this is a three year transition. In that case we should have kept Bilic and made that decision a year ago. Fact is, we have one season, two max before we run out of parachute payments, at which point we will sink into championship oblivion. So it's get back up asap or get ready for 10-15 years at this level, watching other relegated clubs come down, keep their best players and doing a Norwich / Watford every season.
VI may have a long contract, but we haven't got time for project. He needs to get us up and should be knocking on Ken's for demanding money to bring better players in.
He can knock on Ken’s door all he wants but if we’ve no money in the kitty he isn’t going to get any! And if we have money in the kitty I’ve grave doubts as to whether he’d get it all !
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I never believed the two year plan bs. Just like I don’t believe the words from VI’s mouth mean we aren’t working on deals.
It’s all about managing expectations and man management. What go does it do for VI to publically say he needs players then ask those here to run through walls for him.
Here's what was in the E&S (https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/08/17/valerien-ismael-west-brom-working-on-transfer-targets/) yesterday, also reported in the Mail and elsewhere:
"Valerien Ismael says Albion are working on potential signings – with the boss expecting the transfer market to pick up next week. The Baggies are known to be on the hunt for a striker before the transfer window closes. Orlando’s Daryl Dike and Man City’s Liam Delap are two players under consideration, the Express & Star understands. But the squad also looks light in other areas with some fans concerned about Ismael’s options in central midfield.
The Frenchman - who has remained calm throughout the window - has insisted he won’t rush into any signings. But he revealed Albion are working on deals ahead of the window closing on August 31.
'We have two weeks until the end of the transfer period' the boss said. 'That is a long, long, time. For sure, from next week everything will go quicker and faster. But at the minute nothing has changed. We are aware of the market. We know exactly what we need. But we need to make sure it is the right decision for us. If we get that feeling it is the right decision, based on the analysis of the last two games, then we will make it happen.
At the minute I am calm because I know exactly what is happening behind the scenes. We are working on the list of players and we will see what we can do'â€.
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Seems calm, professional even. It's almost as though he does this for a living and has a part to play in an ongoing process. Hopefully we're looking at quality additions in the near future.
If not though I'd love to see the look on Ken's face when there's a knock on the door the day after the window closes, there's no quality additions, and Valérien walks through the door without having opened it first ;D .
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He can knock on Ken’s door all he wants but if we’ve no money in the kitty he isn’t going to get any! And if we have money in the kitty I’ve grave doubts as to whether he’d get it all !
just sold Pereira for £17.2 million and got rid of most of our high earners so club should have money to spend.
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Seems calm, professional even. It's almost as though he does this for a living and has a part to play in an ongoing process. Hopefully we're looking at quality additions in the near future.
Agree entirely. The strange think is how many people do this for a living and don’t act this way in public.
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just sold Pereira for £17.2 million and got rid of most of our high earners so club should have money to spend.
We have to remember our income has reduced significantly as well. Also, we may have made a profit on selling Pereira but we will have cash obligations to pay for transfers agreed on deferred terms in the past. I imagine we’re still paying for Grant, Diangana, Zohore, Sawyers etc.
In addition to this - as long as we were comfortable with the liquidity risk of Al Hilal - we will be receiving the Pereira fee in instalments too.
So whilst in terms of FFP we might have lots of headroom in cash terms we might not have a pot to **** in.
I would argue that it might be quite sensible in the current environment to ensure the club is financially sound and not to overstretch ourselves. You can come back at me with the golden paradise of the PL but remember the minute we get promoted that PL money is spoken for - there’s never anything left at the end.
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We have to remember our income has reduced significantly as well. Also, we may have made a profit on selling Pereira but we will have cash obligations to pay for transfers agreed on deferred terms in the past. I imagine we’re still paying for Grant, Diangana, Zohore, Sawyers etc.
In addition to this - as long as we were comfortable with the liquidity risk of Al Hilal - we will be receiving the Pereira fee in instalments too.
So whilst in terms of FFP we might have lots of headroom in cash terms we might not have a pot to p*ss in.
Any transfer fees we pay are likely to be in installments too, unless they're very small, so it's not a one-way street in that regard. Also, you never know but the review panel might deign to give us some money for Ferguson before hell freezes over!
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Happy to be proven otherwise, but I was under the impression that these days, a lot of clubs use intermediary sports banks so that the selling club has access to the funds more quickly.
E.g. WBA sells Pereira to Al Hilal for £17m, spread across 3 payments.
WBA approaches Sports Bank and says "We have guaranteed income for £17m over the next X months/years, so can you give us a loan for that £17m?
Obviously there may be then interest on that loan, so you'd end up losing money overall, but it would give you accessss to the funds straight away.
Fairly sure this is a thing that happens. Not sure if it applies in this case.
Anyway, getting away from VI. I like his together was and prioritising the team over the individual.
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Any transfer fees we pay are likely to be in installments too, unless they're very small, so it's not a one-way street in that regard. Also, you never know but the review panel might deign to give us some money for Ferguson before hell freezes over!
I guess it just comes down to the risk appetite of the board and how much they want to leverage the club. I wouldn’t be surprised if we get 3 loan signings in and then see if we need to strengthen in January.
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really loving this bloke so far, his passion, interaction with the fans and his style is so exciting.
Best league in the world for excitement as usual, i love the Albion again.
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really loving this bloke so far, his passion, interaction with the fans and his style is so exciting.
Best league in the world for excitement as usual, i love the Albion again.
I think it is too. Premiership is way too cagey for my liking, even when we do ok. All the same, can't wait to go up... :-\
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With Sawyers gone some lad asked Nixon if we are looking for replacement he seems to think not as Val is impressed with a couple of youngsters for midfield positions. I’m happy with that but hope we can get striker in.
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With Sawyers gone some lad asked Nixon if we are looking for replacement he seems to think not as Val is impressed with a couple of youngsters for midfield positions. I’m happy with that but hope we can get striker in.
I’ve seen O’Shea and Ajayi mentioned for midfield slots. Let’s face it in this system you don’t need much technical ability. Kick it forward and chase it down.
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I’ve seen O’Shea and Ajayi mentioned for midfield slots.
I can't see that working but, if they're playing there, the depth we have in central defence is diminished. A player having to cover multiple positions is undesirable in such an intense style of play, proper squad depth is needed otherwise we'll find ourselves coming up well short before very long as tiredness, suspensions and injuries inevitably occur.
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I’ve seen O’Shea and Ajayi mentioned for midfield slots. Let’s face it in this system you don’t need much technical ability. Kick it forward and chase it down.
I disagree with that. Of course that's part of the strategy but then you need the likes of Mowatt and Livermore to control the ball and play good balls further up the pitch in attack. Those two are levels ahead of O'Shea and Ajayi in that area, especially Mowatt.
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I can't see that working but, if they're playing there, the depth we have in central defence is diminished. A player having to cover multiple positions is undesirable in such an intense style of play, proper squad depth is needed otherwise we'll find ourselves coming up well short before very long as tiredness, suspensions and injuries inevitably occur.
Unless you have several players who can play both at the back and as defensive midfielders. Then you have depth, more options and flexibility of formation
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I’ve seen O’Shea and Ajayi mentioned for midfield slots. Let’s face it in this system you don’t need much technical ability. Kick it forward and chase it down.
I think there's a danger of expecting that running power and stamina will be enough. I will add to that scoring from set pieces. We also need to score by creating chances by good wing play, from through balls and little give and goes around the penalty box. To do that you need skilful players with a good first touch, and ability to work the ball in tight spaces.
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A breath of fresh air! What a difference a couple of months makes. From the mess of the summer (Wilder, Wagner, Dowling etc) to now is quite something. It's early days and we shouldn't get carried away but Val has made his mark.
One thing I really admire is his obvious desire to coach and make players better. Bar Clarke and Mowatt these are the same players that seemed so flat last season. To instill such a hunger and desire is impressive. Watching Phillips (in the first half) press and chase and his run to get onto Grants cross was to watch a different player.
Great start Val.
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I flipping love Val, to turn us around in such a short space of time after the misery of last season and the general malaise about the place takes something special.
We actually have an identity, we attack teams, we impose our style on them, we try to score goals! Love it. It looks like the players love it too.
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I flipping love Val, to turn us around in such a short space of time after the misery of last season and the general malaise about the place takes something special.
We actually have an identity, we attack teams, we impose our style on them, we try to score goals! Love it. It looks like the players love it too.
Early days but I think we have a gem in Val he has revived my interest in the team just when I had nearly got over the addiction!
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He's a joy to have at the helm.
Hope it builds and builds and we don't lose him to a big six side until we are seventh in the Prem.
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In todays press conference VI has said Clarke is out for 6 weeks and 2 players are out as they have covid.
Joe Chapman
"It's six weeks for Matt Clarke, Val has confirmed today. On top of that, two #wba first team players are isolating having tested positive for COVID. Full story to follow."
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Sign some players, chaps. We are threadbare enough as it is without the Clarke injury and a Covid outbreak
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Thats 3 first teamers out for the Posh game. Let's see what happens.
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In todays press conference VI has said Clarke is out for 6 weeks and 2 players are out as they have covid.
Joe Chapman
"It's six weeks for Matt Clarke, Val has confirmed today. On top of that, two #wba first team players are isolating having tested positive for COVID. Full story to follow."
Worrying that we are three players down.
We don't have the squad depth for a covid outbreak !
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Apparently VI has stated in the conference he's happy with the squad and only wants someone else in if the deal is good. I hope that's just him keeping his cards close to his chest and not a sign of a 'yes man' which the board would love. Ismael doesn't strike me as a 'yes man' though to be fair
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Apparently VI has stated in the conference he's happy with the squad and only wants someone else in if the deal is good. I hope that's just him keeping his cards close to his chest and not a sign of a 'yes man' which the board would love. Ismael doesn't strike me as a 'yes man' though to be fair
I suspect that is just a case of managing expectations with fans, agents and selling clubs as we enter the important part of the window. Also bear in mind that he was previously at Barnsley with an inferior squad and no real resources so even with what he has been given now, he has a much better squad to work with, hence why he may not be as pushy as we would expect to bring more players in; he already has hit the jackpot to a point.
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I suspect that is just a case of managing expectations with fans, agents and selling clubs as we enter the important part of the window. Also bear in mind that he was previously at Barnsley with an inferior squad and no real resources so even with what he has been given now, he has a much better squad to work with, hence why he may not be as pushy as we would expect to bring more players in; he already has hit the jackpot to a point.
Hope you are right and i believe you are. Still need a few more bodies in. Do not want the train to de-rail because we simply don't have the numbers.
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Sign some players, chaps. We are threadbare enough as it is without the Clarke injury and a Covid outbreak
In advocating that we need to sign a minimum of 4 players to give us a reasonable squad depth, I've been mentioning that Covid will be one of the factors sooner or later and here we are already.
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Apparently VI has stated in the conference he's happy with the squad and only wants someone else in if the deal is good. I hope that's just him keeping his cards close to his chest and not a sign of a 'yes man' which the board would love. Ismael doesn't strike me as a 'yes man' though to be fair
Has to be him speaking knowing that there are deals in the pipeline, surely? We have three central midfielders and one of those is a young kid who I imagine has yet to make his professional debut, that simply is not sustainable particularly with the way we now play and that is without looking at the other deficiencies in the squad including a lack of an outright striker (not counting Zohore)
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Worrying that we are three players down.
We don't have the squad depth for a covid outbreak !
All three missing both Arsenal and Peterborough then.
Obviously wishing them a speedy recovery but from a selfish perspective lets hope it is Palmer and Ingram!
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Has to be him speaking knowing that there are deals in the pipeline, surely? We have three central midfielders and one of those is a young kid who I imagine has yet to make his professional debut, that simply is not sustainable particularly with the way we now play and that is without looking at the other deficiencies in the squad including a lack of an outright striker (not counting Zohore)
The board may have asked him before he signed that you will have to manage on frees/loans ,any money we raise will be kept hold of, would you be ok with this? Barnsley to WBA is a big stepup for VI even with no money.
I am hoping it's just kidology and we are working on a few bodies coming in. If we struggle against Posh then it leaves little time to bring people in.
The club struggles to bring anyone in with a 2 year vision planned out let alone the window closing 3 days after Peterborough.
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Desperately hope he’s playing a game of poker here - he must know this tiny, tiny squad isn’t good enough to last for a long battle for promotion.
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I try not to read too much into any Head Coach's press conferences but having seen a number of Ismael's it strikes me that he really does not want to talk about transfers and that would be the case regardless of the circumstances. I think the journalists who cover the club know this, they are going to ask but they absolutely know they aren't going to have a story from the answer they get.
View his comments in that light and they make perfect sense there is no story. "I am happy with the squad and unless the deal is right for the club it won't happen". Where is the story? What is even the follow up question? He is not interested in fuelling speculation nor talking about players he hasn't got.
Setting aside that it might be a clever piece of news management it might genuinely be the unvarnished truth. He has frequently said that he is happy with the players he has inherited and played down the need for transfers.
One way or another we will know for sure in a week's time.
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Disappointed with VI tonight.
Academy kids get a debut to forget - their debut should not be a mauling.
Fans spent good money to watch the reserves - why ever bother going to a cup game ever again?
For some kids, that is their first ever Albion game. What an introduction.
Disrespected the fans and academy kids.
Should have announced he was playing kids before tickets made available. You can blame the club's owner for not investing in the squad and leaving VI little choice but it leaves a bitter taste for me.
I get the league is more important but ffs...
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agree, its fraudulent to charge anything approaching normal prices for games like this anymore.
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Was only a tenner wasn't it??
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I’m actually disappointed with his team selection tonight and he’s given teams a blueprint in how to play against us. Balls over the top and balls down the side of our centre backs. Non of those lads will be pushing our first team which worries me if any of our starting 11 get injured. Val should be on to Ken to get players in because we look well short
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Its certainly not my idea of fun getting a mauling by Arsenal and their arrogant fans, but I don't have a problem with the team VI has put out. There is a far more important game in 3 days at Peterboro and its important the first team players are fresh and not carrying any more injuries. The kids can only have learned from this experience, and its given VI an opportunity to see which ones have potential for the future.
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Was only a tenner wasn't it??
Not the point.
A tenner is a lot to some.
I had friends travel from Stockport - they won't do that again..
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Its certainly not my idea of fun getting a mauling by Arsenal and their arrogant fans, but I don't have a problem with the team VI has put out. There is a far more important game in 3 days at Peterboro and its important the first team players are fresh and not carrying any more injuries. The kids can only have learned from this experience, and its given VI an opportunity to see which ones have potential for the future.
Let's just annoy the fans who make the effort to go then. Are we trying to keep our fans or not? Are we trying to grow our fan base? Do we want young kids to support us or Arsenal?
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He's just done his aftermatch interview. He's not remotely bothered 😂
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Disappointed with VI tonight.
Academy kids get a debut to forget - their debut should not be a mauling.
Fans spent good money to watch the reserves - why ever bother going to a cup game ever again?
For some kids, that is their first ever Albion game. What an introduction.
Disrespected the fans and academy kids.
Should have announced he was playing kids before tickets made available. You can blame the club's owner for not investing in the squad and leaving VI little choice but it leaves a bitter taste for me.
I get the league is more important but ffs...
If you know anything about this manager, his style of play and our first team squad you will have seen this coming. He don't **** about! Get yourself and the kids to our next league game, that'll get em going. Tis modern fotballing life im afraid.
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Let's just annoy the fans who make the effort to go then. Are we trying to keep our fans or not? Are we trying to grow our fan base? Do we want young kids to support us or Arsenal?
We're going to grow our fan base more by being a Premier League club. That's why the game at Peterboro is more important. I can't believe we've lost any fans through tonight's result.
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I’m actually disappointed with his team selection tonight and he’s given teams a blueprint in how to play against us. Balls over the top and balls down the side of our centre backs. Non of those lads will be pushing our first team which worries me if any of our starting 11 get injured. Val should be on to Ken to get players in because we look well short
Balls over the top to Pepe, Lacazette, Sako and Ambethingy etc is not the same as balls over the top to an other champ player.
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Not the point.
A tenner is a lot to some.
I had friends travel from Stockport - they won't do that again..
I know but the price is advertised well before hand and cup games are normally not full strength teams. If people are worried about getting value for money dont buy a ticket. I let my season ticket go for that exact reason, i want to see the colour of Lais money before he sees mine.
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He's just done his aftermatch interview. He's not remotely bothered 😂
What did he say? Not seen it and can’t find the footage
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Balls over the top to Pepe, Lacazette, Sako and Ambethingy etc is not the same as balls over the top to an other champ player.
agree but Arsenal have shown the way to get at our backline and bypass our press .
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I know but the price is advertised well before hand and cup games are normally not full strength teams. If people are worried about getting value for money dont buy a ticket. I let my season ticket go for that exact reason, i want to see the colour of Lais money before he sees mine.
Invisible. If that's your metric for getting a season ticket you won't be back for a while
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Invisible. If that's your metric for getting a season ticket you won't be back for a while
That's fine. I will always support the Albion, long after the fool who owns us is gone but i can also do it with my money in my pocket instead.
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agree but Arsenal have shown the way to get at our backline and bypass our press .
Everyone knows how to do it.....it's the doing it that's more difficult as Barnsleys opponents last year found out.
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agree but Arsenal have shown the way to get at our backline and bypass our press .
The way to do it was obvious before tonight. Clubs have been doing it against Ismael’s sides for a while.
The difference tonight was the academy lads were not physical or good enough to with stand Arsenal when they came forward.
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agree but Arsenal have shown the way to get at our backline and bypass our press .
I don't think its rocket science working out how to beat our high back line and press, but if our defenders and keeper are quick and concentrated it can work. The system worked okay in the 4 previous games.
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I used to use this formation (slightly differently) on FIFA 2005 :P and yes the long ball always beat it if i had slow defenders. As everyone else says there are counters for everything. It's how well it's executed that counts.
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The way to do it was obvious before tonight. Clubs have been doing it against Ismael’s sides for a while.
The difference tonight was the academy lads were not physical or good enough to with stand Arsenal when they came forward.
ball down the side of our defence was killing us all night and this would be what I’d be highlighting as keeper isn’t able to sweep up
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I thought Ismael might be different and go for it. But that side put out tonight was asking to be thumped sadly. I get why he did it the squad is thread bare. Clarke injured robinson with covid i guess he was making a point to the board.
Hopefully the fa cup wont be treated with as much disregard
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ball down the side of our defence was killing us all night and this would be what I’d be highlighting as keeper isn’t able to sweep up
That’s why they needed an experienced head or two around them.
If there’s no pressure on the ball then you drop.
In a normal match I’d be expecting us to press but I’m not sure these kids had the fitness or intensity to do it.
Therefore you drop back and reassess accordingly
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I thought Ismael might be different and go for it. But that side put out tonight was asking to be thumped sadly. I get why he did it the squad is thread bare. Clarke injured robinson with covid i guess he was making a point to the board.
Hopefully the fa cup wont be treated with as much disregard
why not? It’s just as valueless as the Man City participation trophy we just got knocked out of.
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It was fairly clear from the outset that Ismael wasn't remotely interested in the cup and just looked as an opportunity to give some players who needed minutes time on the pitch and blood some of the youngsters. I guess he didn't think he was going to run into a near full strength Arsenal team.
It was almost certainly not a message to the board.
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I actually think he will be disappointed with how the game went as it is the system that is important and not the players all they have to do is believe wholeheartedly in what he wants.
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The team selection emphasized the paucity of the squad though. Castro, Kipre and Reach were on the bench at Blackburn and Button would have played tonight. Beyond the first 11 we don’t have a lot to work with (other than untried youngsters).
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ball down the side of our defence was killing us all night and this would be what I’d be highlighting as keeper isn’t able to sweep up
To play this system and a back 3, the centre backs either side of the 3 must have pace. It is a basic requirement for this season. Our right and left CB were not quick enough.
Ajayi is a perfect fit, which is why it is baffling that we are apparently selling him.
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I hope he takes the FA Cup more seriously, during the first 43 minutes I was growing more and more annoyed at the fact Arsenal were there for the taking...
I understand financially we need to get promoted but I'm guessing like most people on here, haven't seen us win anything (excluding the championship title) and have no idea what that feeling is.
Almost got a taste of it during the summer, and that feeling with the Baggies would be 100 fold.
Really disappointed last night, but onto Saturday...
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So VI has basically said 'no more transfers inwards - unless we move someone out'. So thats ZERO £'s spent in this window. Come January this could well bite us in the backside. I know our owner hasn't made the best decisions during his ownership, but this lack of expenditure could see his investment plummet even further. Its just so short sighted. No one expects us to spend £30m, but a little investment could have gone a long way to securing promotion.
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So VI has basically said 'no more transfers inwards - unless we move someone out'. So thats ZERO £'s spent in this window. Come January this could well bite us in the backside. I know our owner hasn't made the best decisions during his ownership, but this lack of expenditure could see his investment plummet even further. Its just so short sighted. No one expects us to spend £30m, but a little investment could have gone a long way to securing promotion.
Yes it's really dumb. Even another Adam Reach type-signing as protection for Furlong wouldn't go a miss. Let alone actually spending any money.
It's really stupid. I can understand being a bit tight but even Peace knew when he was going too far. In my view, if we back VI then we go up. If we don't then our squad could get exposed and it risks it all.
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Yes it's really dumb. Even another Adam Reach type-signing as protection for Furlong wouldn't go a miss. Let alone actually spending any money.
It's really stupid. I can understand being a bit tight but even Peace knew when he was going too far. In my view, if we back VI then we go up. If we don't then our squad could get exposed and it risks it all.
The way I see it failure to get promotion this season will see the dark days return to West Brom and there will be no way back.
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We have offloaded the following players :
Pereira
Gibbs
Grosicki
edwards
Robson Kanu
Austin
Field
Harper
Leko
+ 4 loan players making a total of 13 players
We have got in 3 players , Mowett, Reach and Castro +2 loan players making a total of 5 players
How much money on saved wages and some of them were big hitters like Gibbs, Pereira, Robson kanu, austin.
have we saved. Now they are saying we can only bring in new players if current players go.
I'm afraid our promising start will gradually diminish as we get injuries and suspensions.
To get out of this league you need a strong squad because some parts of the season you are paying twicw a week and with the type of game we are playing we need a strong fit squad.
Ismael managed to get Barnsley into the play offs by playing this intense style of play but remember there were 2 extra subs last season and he was utilising that .
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We have offloaded the following players :
Pereira
Gibbs
Grosicki
edwards
Robson Kanu
Austin
Field
Harper
Leko
+ 4 loan players making a total of 13 players
We have got in 3 players , Mowett, Reach and Castro +2 loan players making a total of 5 players
How much money on saved wages and some of them were big hitters like Gibbs, Pereira, Robson kanu, austin.
have we saved. Now they are saying we can only bring in new players if current players go.
I'm afraid our promising start will gradually diminish as we get injuries and suspensions.
To get out of this league you need a strong squad because some parts of the season you are paying twicw a week and with the type of game we are playing we need a strong fit squad.
Ismael managed to get Barnsley into the play offs by playing this intense style of play but remember there were 2 extra subs last season and he was utilising that .
As were the opposition ! The equation remains balanced, just different numbers.
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As were the opposition ! The equation remains balanced, just different numbers.
I think his point is that our style of play will knacker our players out quicker than the oppositions, plus rotating them in game potentially reduced the risk of injuries.
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We have offloaded the following players :
Pereira
Gibbs
Grosicki
edwards
Robson Kanu
Austin
Field
Harper
Leko
+ 4 loan players making a total of 13 players........
...... not forgetting Andy Lonergan and Lee Peltier.
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...... not forgetting Andy Lonergan and Lee Peltier.
And Luke Sawyers!
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And Luke Sawyers!
... and Romaine ;) .
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... and Romaine ;) .
Yeah - that's TWO Sawyers! Forgotten him already :D
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We have offloaded the following players :
Pereira
Gibbs
Grosicki
edwards
Robson Kanu
Austin
Field
Harper
Leko
+ 4 loan players making a total of 13 players
We have got in 3 players , Mowett, Reach and Castro +2 loan players making a total of 5 players
How much money on saved wages and some of them were big hitters like Gibbs, Pereira, Robson kanu, austin.
have we saved. Now they are saying we can only bring in new players if current players go.
I'm afraid our promising start will gradually diminish as we get injuries and suspensions.
To get out of this league you need a strong squad because some parts of the season you are paying twicw a week and with the type of game we are playing we need a strong fit squad.
Ismael managed to get Barnsley into the play offs by playing this intense style of play but remember there were 2 extra subs last season and he was utilising that .
I really struggle to count Castro as bringing a player in. He’s under 23’s at absolute best at the moment and I’d say from all his failed trials that he’s on a real low, low wage.
2 permanent signings. It’s a joke.
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I'm afraid our promising start will gradually diminish as we get injuries and suspensions.
And Covid-related absences of course, of which there's likely to be plenty.
To get out of this league you need a strong squad because some parts of the season you are paying twicw a week and with the type of game we are playing we need a strong fit squad.
Ismael managed to get Barnsley into the play offs by playing this intense style of play but remember there were 2 extra subs last season and he was utilising that.
Valerien's system will require the entire squad to be utilised during the season due to tiredness and absences for whatever reason, so he'll need those who come in to be worthy of the task that he wants them to do.
His comments about being happy with the squad as it is do concern me, even though I trust him to know exactly what he needs. If he's saying it as part of some agreed strategy with the board, it would make sense if we're looking to buy players, but not if we're just looking for loans. Indeed it might put some clubs off to hear that we're trying to loan a player from them whilst telling all and sundry that our squad being sufficient, as they might think the player won't get much game time.
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I will be the first to say it, that was simply not good enough In terms of football played. Lucky to win yes, but the football played was dire.
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You don’t play as good as the Sheff Utd game every week and if you do you’re called Man City.
We have players like Kyle Bartley etc what do you expect week in week out?
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You don’t play as good as the Sheff Utd game every week and if you do you’re called Man City.
We have players like Kyle Bartley etc what do you expect week in week out?
Agreed but the basics were poor tonight. l will accept that we had an off night but I cannot see anything that play offs with this style. I know he said it will take time to bed in but that was fire tonight
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We are absolutely fine, players enjoy the style, fans buy it, Ishmael is a beast.
Happy days
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Strange…you see I thought there was some good passages of play.
I thought we were off compared to other games this season granted. But we plugged away, defended well, created chances and had attempts and never gave up and that attitude won us the game.
It’s the essence of Ismael’s team mentality
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What a guy. I have some doubts about his tactics but love his mentality, passion and man management.
I think watching the fergusson bit back it’s a gesture to the official.
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The God of Football. 8)
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Definitely his new nickname ;D
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https://twitter.com/thebaggiesbible/status/1431727914391941331?s=21
One of the best tweets I've seen in a long while. Come on you Baggies!!!
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Agreed but the basics were poor tonight. l will accept that we had an off night but I cannot see anything that play offs with this style. I know he said it will take time to bed in but that was fire tonight
There was too much lobbing it forward and hoping for the best.
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Thought his approach today didnt work out as well as it has done previously. Robinson one of our best players didnt play and our other in mowatt wasnt as good as his other games this season.
However he made bold changes early and proactively. Another 2 weeks with the players so he can get reach hugil molumby and snodgrass up to his desired levels can only be a good thing.
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Got to say Ismael running down the touchline and standing his ground to Ferguson was hilarious. After being a soft touch and rolling over so often this makes a pleasant change. Seeing Fergsuon junior annoyed was a joy :)
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Two weeks to get the new players bedded in and the youngsters ready for bit parts with confidence high. Two home games up next.
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At last, a manager with some passion. :)
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You are never going to look dominant in every game, there's always going to be a pretty large number of games a season you don't play well in but just need to get the points on board one way or the other.
He's had a good start ,he's the least backed manager we've had at this division in all our relegation promotion attempts with the worst squad since 03/04. It's a much harder job for him than others we've had at this level post Megson.
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https://twitter.com/thebaggiesbible/status/1431727914391941331?s=21
One of the best tweets I've seen in a long while. Come on you Baggies!!!
Loved that :D
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Is this the best start we've ever had to a championship season?
How many points is our aim by Christmas?
Say 10 points in every month would give us 53 points to December end
Is this feasible?
What is the average points total by teams that who have been promoted by halfway through the season
I know its only 5 games in but....
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Still very much a work in progress. Sometimes it doesn't go as well as it should, as soon as the battle starts all your plans go to widdershins.
Passing was awful in as non existent. Looked in total panic at times - all created by trying to just be too quick in everything. As high energy high press becomes habitual, ingrained into the technique, it will become second nature and individuals with ability will be able to take the extra millisecond, get their head up and make the appropriate pass at the right time. Our winner was a goal of real quality, as have been some of our others, so we can do it.
VI "the god of football" and his men will get them sorted in time, but in the meantime let's just keep the results coming in to tide things over whilst we get better and better at Valball.
COYB usque in finem, et usque in finem.
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VI "the god of football"
can we change the name of this topic
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I really rate Val"s attitude, the pride and trust he has in our players, himself and our club is great to see and hear
He won't let anyone talk is down, I love that
Anybody know exactly why miniferg threw his dummy out?
I did not that Val stuck his ground and stood up to that little nobody, respect works both ways mate
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https://twitter.com/thebaggiesbible/status/1431727914391941331?s=21
One of the best tweets I've seen in a long while. Come on you Baggies!!!
Absolutely brilliant.
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Absolutely brilliant.
Oh God that’s made me howl. Super duper 😆😂🤣
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Don’t know if this is the right place but you can get 25% of selected hoodies on wba shop using code â€FURLONG†;D
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Fact, Valerien sends opposing managers to sleep!
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https://twitter.com/thebaggiesbible/status/1431727914391941331?s=21
One of the best tweets I've seen in a long while. Come on you Baggies!!!
That's brilliant ;D
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https://twitter.com/thebaggiesbible/status/1431727914391941331?s=21
Love it! :P
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I love his passion, we were not at our best yesterday but still got a result which you have to do to be in the mix.
We will get better no doubt and then we will be a real handful.
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I don't believe that any other manager could have done better with the players he inherited and was allowed to bring in. 4 wins and a draw. 3 of those away from home. Fantastic.
Im reminded of the joke, " Whats the difference between God and a Doctor. God doesn't think he is a Doctor." And after the Peterborough game "Whats the difference between God and Val - Nothing!"
Like he said from the beginning he doesn't need the best players just the right ones and I believe him. I think he can make a silk purse out of a sows ear with his signings. And what is refreshing is when he can't he gets rid.
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Julian Dicks stated in an interview that he felt that VI running down the line to celebrate was disrespectful regardless of it being a last minute winner. Personally i don't see the fuss either way.
In summary also in the interview with Ladbrokes he claims he felt they (Bilic etc)were sacked too soon and also we needed to buy a striker who's going to bag us 20 goals for this EFL season but he wishes us well and likes the club.
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I couldn't give a monkeys if people find it disrespectful - I hope he does it more often.
I honestly don't see what is disrespectful about it to be honest.
Viva Le God.
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I couldn't give a monkeys if people find it disrespectful - I hope he does it more often.
I honestly don't see what is disrespectful about it to be honest.
Viva Le God.
I agree. If the other manager did it against my team i wouldn't give a toss, it's all about being caught up in the emotions of the time and nothing wrong with that.
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That's a bit rich coming from one of the dirtiest players of his age
Where was his respect for his fellow players and players then?
Hes a hypocrite
Who from WBA would listen to anything that joker has to say or offer?
He was a talentless thug
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That's a bit rich coming from one of the dirtiest players of his age
Where was his respect for his fellow players and players then?
Hes a hypocrite
Who from WBA would listen to anything that joker has to say or offer?
He was a talentless thug
That not so long ago was a coach at the club 😂
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Julian Dicks stated in an interview that he felt that VI running down the line to celebrate was disrespectful regardless of it being a last minute winner. Personally i don't see the fuss either way.
In summary also in the interview with Ladbrokes he claims he felt they (Bilic etc)were sacked too soon and we needed to buy a striker who's going to bag us 20 goals but he wishes us well and likes the club.
Didn’t Bilic do something very similar at some point. I swear I can see it happening
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I agree. If the other manager did it against my team i wouldn't give a toss, it's all about being caught up in the emotions of the time and nothing wrong with that.
I agree, but I do think if another manager did it to us you’d see people going mad about it on hear, same as the throws.
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Julian living up to his name, does anyone remember Mourinho at Old Trafford?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOBLwejwPZ8&ab_channel=UEFA
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I agree, but I do think if another manager did it to us you’d see people going mad about it on hear, same as the throws.
I don't see the fuss, it's just living in the moment. When i've managed in Sunday League i've done the same for a late late equaliser and had it done against me. Just natural imo!
A lot of people are overly sensitive i agree.
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Julian living up to his name, does anyone remember Mourinho at Old Trafford?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOBLwejwPZ8&ab_channel=UEFA
Di Canio for Sunderland at St James Park was the best kind of sh!thousing! Watch this for passion
https://youtu.be/7cNGS5-g-F4
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Its the same as players do after scoring, so what's different? Are they being direspectful?
My only caveat is that nobody should celebrate in the face of opposition players or staff.
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Di Canio for Sunderland at St James Park was the best kind of sh!thousing! Watch this for passion
https://youtu.be/7cNGS5-g-F4
LOL, that was OTT and in a local derby away from home did he make it home?
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LOL, that was OTT and in a local derby away from home did he make it home?
He done it for Lazio against Rome as a player so a few Geordie's aint going to bother him, he's a nutter who's scared of no-one that bloke! ;D
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Not forgetting Graeme Souness trying to plant the Galatasaray flag at Fenerbace ;D .
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I love it, hope he does it every time, couldn't care less if bloated face Ferguson takes offence or equally bloated Dicks for that matter.
Sick of all the sterile, polite, cliched nonsense, let's see some real passion and honesty.
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david pleat in that cream suit, shocking. lets hope we see more passion from our head coach, i am sure we will. love it
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We’ve been too nice for too long. Let’s ruffle a few feathers.
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Absolutely nothing wrong with him running down the line. He is a passionate manager.
Love to see it.
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Totally agree Smeth/Tomm
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Julian Dicks stated in an interview that he felt that VI running down the line to celebrate was disrespectful regardless of it being a last minute winner. Personally i don't see the fuss either way.
In summary also in the interview with Ladbrokes he claims he felt they (Bilic etc)were sacked too soon and we needed to buy a striker who's going to bag us 20 goals but he wishes us well and likes the club.
I'm sure Dicks would have found it disrespectful had Bilic done it during a game as well. After all, Bilic was always very calm and relaxed on the touchline...
Jokes aside, Ismael did nothing wrong, he wants the team spirit to grow and has since said he feels it could be a huge moment in the teams mental toughness. He wanted to reinforce what a big moment it is. I'll love it if we go up and he can prove it wasn't a one off last year.
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It is telling that Dicks focusses on the trivia of what a coach does or doesn't on the touchline and the extent of his analysis on the tactical master class that he contributed to at the Hawthorns was everything was fine except we didn't have the mythical 20 goal a season striker (clue Julian most clubs in the Premier League don't).
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It is telling that Dicks focusses on the trivia of what a coach does or doesn't on the touchline and the extent of his analysis on the tactical master class that he contributed to at the Hawthorns was everything was fine except we didn't have the mythical 20 goal a season striker (clue Julian most clubs in the Premier League don't).
I have edited my original post as after reading your comments I felt I hadn't made it clear enough that his 20 goal striker comments were pertaining to this window just gone, not his and Bilic time in the PL here.
My bad.
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Only Salah and Kane scored 20+ league goals last season so I would suggest they are hard to come by ;)
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I have edited my original post as after reading your comments I felt I hadn't made it clear enough that his 20 goal striker comments were pertaining to this window just gone, not his and Bilic time in the PL here.
My bad.
Fine, Dicks slightly less bad but still not particularly insightful or thoughtful. 20 goal strikers (which is an entirely arbitrary number) are almost entirely a function of chances created. Equally a team that has a number of goal threats is harder to play against than a team that has just the one main goal threat. How completely a coach buys into the 20 goal a season striker myth is not a bad benchmark as to how good a coach they are.
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Early days , needs more time but so far I'm not enjoying Val Ball personally .Whacking it , lumping it call it what you want ....
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Gradys withdrawal at half time baffled me looked our best forward even though he’s been playing out of position, think he’s been unfairly treated by Val. Grant should have been pulled as he did nothing.
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Gradys withdrawal at half time baffled me looked our best forward even though he’s been playing out of position, think he’s been unfairly treated by Val. Grant should have been pulled as he did nothing.
Yep agree with you there. Grant was pants today and his penalty was embarassing.
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Unbeaten after 6 games and top of the league. That will do for me.
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Early days , needs more time but so far I'm not enjoying Val Ball personally .Whacking it , lumping it call it what you want ....
if we don’t win the football is rubbish no composure on the ball in final third really worries me and hoof ball is food and drink to well drilled defenders.
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As against Peterborough, no tactical flexibility. Concerning.
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Early days , needs more time but so far I'm not enjoying Val Ball personally .Whacking it , lumping it call it what you want ....
I said it after Peterborough and I’ll say it again, I’m not convinced by Val. That first half was some of the worst football we have played at this level for years. If Pauli’s had been in charge people would have wanted him out tonight for that. This manager will need to find another way to play at home as I’m telling you now, the natives will be quickly restless. I’m sorry but trying every time to score from long throws and smashing it long is not the Albion. Early days but for me the signs are not good
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I said it after Peterborough and I’ll say it again, I’m not convinced by Val. That first half was some of the worst football we have played at this level for years. If Pauli’s had been in charge people would have wanted him out tonight for that. This manager will need to find another way to play at home as I’m telling you now, the natives will be quickly restless. I’m sorry but trying every time to score from long throws and smashing it long is not the Albion. Early days but for me the signs are not good
as someone else posted he needs to be flexible with his formation,team selection (as a couple of players are staying on pitch no mater how they play) and more importantly how we play. Looks like teams are beginning to find us out drop their defenders on to 18 yard box so no balls are played behind them and keep Mowatt out of game as he is our most influential player.
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Post match words from VI
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/ismael-offers-millwall-assessment?fbclid=IwAR2dfHSCEAm1ydWji13D2wWb0dmkDgnzMzmEJoUcnmUi4gi4fvlMr6F6zp4
“We had our opportunities on Saturday, but it wasn’t enough to win the game.
“We have to learn from that game. We will face this type of test plenty of times in the season when opponents come to The Hawthorns.
“They want to make us frustrated and take all of the intensity out of the game.
“Our purpose from that game is to learn from what happened and make sure we maintain our intensity.
“We want to always put the opponent under pressure, like we did in a better way in the second half.
“I think we made too many mistakes. We were unsure in the defensive line and we allowed the opponent to always have a chance of coming back into the game.
“We know we have the quality to score at any time in the game but on Saturday I don’t think our decision making was as good as it could have been.
“We took too many touches and weren’t clinical in the final third.
“At the other end, we conceded too many corners and free-kicks and we knew Millwall would be a threat from those types of situations and that’s where their goal has come from unfortunately.
“Again that is something we have to learn from.
“When we get ourselves ahead, we have to stay on the front foot. We have to take the right decisions and the right direction. We have to be ruthless.
“We wanted to win on Saturday and we weren’t able to do that. We’ve seen how difficult the Championship can be and you have to take it one game at a time.â€
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Post match words from VI
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/ismael-offers-millwall-assessment?fbclid=IwAR2dfHSCEAm1ydWji13D2wWb0dmkDgnzMzmEJoUcnmUi4gi4fvlMr6F6zp4
“We had our opportunities on Saturday, but it wasn’t enough to win the game.
“We have to learn from that game. We will face this type of test plenty of times in the season when opponents come to The Hawthorns.
“They want to make us frustrated and take all of the intensity out of the game.
“Our purpose from that game is to learn from what happened and make sure we maintain our intensity.
“We want to always put the opponent under pressure, like we did in a better way in the second half.
“I think we made too many mistakes. We were unsure in the defensive line and we allowed the opponent to always have a chance of coming back into the game.
“We know we have the quality to score at any time in the game but on Saturday I don’t think our decision making was as good as it could have been.
“We took too many touches and weren’t clinical in the final third.
“At the other end, we conceded too many corners and free-kicks and we knew Millwall would be a threat from those types of situations and that’s where their goal has come from unfortunately.
“Again that is something we have to learn from.
“When we get ourselves ahead, we have to stay on the front foot. We have to take the right decisions and the right direction. We have to be ruthless.
“We wanted to win on Saturday and we weren’t able to do that. We’ve seen how difficult the Championship can be and you have to take it one game at a time.â€
honest assessment to be fair bloke is no mug but think he made poor decision when replacing Grady who was our only threat first half
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I said it after Peterborough and I’ll say it again, I’m not convinced by Val. That first half was some of the worst football we have played at this level for years. If Pauli’s had been in charge people would have wanted him out tonight for that. This manager will need to find another way to play at home as I’m telling you now, the natives will be quickly restless. I’m sorry but trying every time to score from long throws and smashing it long is not the Albion. Early days but for me the signs are not good
I think the first half as a football match regardless of who was playing was complete and utter garbage . There were quite a few by me in the east stand from shall we say the elderly generation who were actually quite vocal in their disapproval of the rubbish served up by us in the first half .
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I said it after Peterborough and I’ll say it again, I’m not convinced by Val. That first half was some of the worst football we have played at this level for years. If Pauli’s had been in charge people would have wanted him out tonight for that. This manager will need to find another way to play at home as I’m telling you now, the natives will be quickly restless. I’m sorry but trying every time to score from long throws and smashing it long is not the Albion. Early days but for me the signs are not good
Oh, don't start on the 'West Brom Way' / 'West Ham Way' etc.... does my head in. You play to win and last time I saw, we are top of the table and unbeaten. Been a fan since the late 70s and the amount of seasons I have seen this so-called 'Albion way' is not that high, in all honesty.
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Yeah saying we must play a certain way etc is nauseating and arrogant.
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VI has some thinking to do after that. He can still play it 3 at the back but perhaps put an extra centre mid player in , wing backs provide the width with 2 centreish strikers , more of a 352 than the 343 we are currently using. It seems a simple adjustment rather than wholesale changing of personnel and tactics . If he’s going to carry on with the same then please give Diangana a chance on the left !
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Some on here may know that my favourite set up is 352
Its an attacking and defensive formation that I like
But, I'm not knocking Val he has his way were unbeaten and top of the league
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Think he needs to give snodgrass a go with maybe molumby and mowatt in a central 3. And try 2 up top perhaps Hugil and Robinson.
Or if he stays as we are he needs to make some changes as i fear that some of the players have gotten complacent that they are going to start the game
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Oh, don't start on the 'West Brom Way' / 'West Ham Way' etc.... does my head in. You play to win and last time I saw, we are top of the table and unbeaten. Been a fan since the late 70s and the amount of seasons I have seen this so-called 'Albion way' is not that high, in all honesty.
I think you're saying that the result is all that matters. I only agree up to a point. Even when Pulis won games, I only tolerated it up to a point, and the same applied with Harford's, Gould's and Little's football and a few others. Val's football is better than any of the above for the simple reason that he gets players forward, we don't stay deep when we have the ball and we create goal chances.
However, it was partly through watching skilful creative players crafting out goal chances or dribbling past defenders, which first attracted me to West Brom. In the ideal world I'd like to see some of those exciting players, as for me, its part of that West Brom identity. But as long as Val's method gets results, I won't be grumbling.
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Oh, don't start on the 'West Brom Way' / 'West Ham Way' etc.... does my head in. You play to win and last time I saw, we are top of the table and unbeaten. Been a fan since the late 70s and the amount of seasons I have seen this so-called 'Albion way' is not that high, in all honesty.
Watching that yesterday reminded me of when we used to play Stoke. I always used to wonder how the Stoke fans could turn up every week and watch that dross. Win or no win.
That's where I am now.
Can I put myself through sitting and watching us launch the ball 50 yards and chase after in in some vane hope that somebody can catch it?
Yesterdays first 45minutes was as bad a game of football as I've ever seen, and I can go back to the 68 cup winning side.
When Pulis was in charge I wasn't fussed wether I went to the games or not.
With all the logistics of getting to the game, traffic and parking issues, I'm slowly getting to that stage again. Win or Lose.
That's from a 35year season ticket holder.
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I’m not sure if it’s a case of recency bias, but the style of play today was nothing like vs Bournemouth, Luton or Sheffield Utd. In all of those games we were quite attacking and were able to engineer chances from more than simply the aerial route. Ismael’s style of play up to this point has been quite entertaining.
The issues seem to be have come about the last few weeks and that could be for one of 2 reasons. Either managers are working how to play vs our system, or my main concern, our system is most effective vs teams who want to play more football against us. The first 3 opponents we faced this season are all eyeing up promotion this year and play football. Blackburn are a footballing side but are maybe weaker and so have to defend a bit more (so a slightly tighter game) and then our last 2 have come against sides more than happy to sit deep and defend.
Against those sort of sides, where the press is nullified, we seriously need to have more in the way of creativity and guile, particularly with the ball on the ground. We can’t keep relying on a one dimensional strategy of getting the ball out to Townsend/the left sided forward to cross a constant stream of crosses in. Milwall dealt with it easily, it was predictable.
Instead, the midfield and forwards need to be able to move the ball between the lines, to pull the opposition defence out of position and to go past a player where needed. Over half of the clubs we play this season - I’d go as far as saying 3in every 4 games will be vs teams who come to defend against us and catch us on the break. Playing the way we have in the last 2 games won’t see us win enough to get top 2.
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I know it's a different system to the Pulis formula but I fear there's a very real danger that the players become too resigned to knowing set pieces including the long throws are our best chances of goals and so not be proactive or bright enough in trying to create something else.
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I’m not sure if it’s a case of recency bias, but the style of play today was nothing like vs Bournemouth, Luton or Sheffield Utd. In all of those games we were quite attacking and were able to engineer chances from more than simply the aerial route. Ismael’s style of play up to this point has been quite entertaining.
The issues seem to be have come about the last few weeks and that could be for one of 2 reasons. Either managers are working how to play vs our system, or my main concern, our system is most effective vs teams who want to play more football against us. The first 3 opponents we faced this season are all eyeing up promotion this year and play football. Blackburn are a footballing side but are maybe weaker and so have to defend a bit more (so a slightly tighter game) and then our last 2 have come against sides more than happy to sit deep and defend.
Against those sort of sides, where the press is nullified, we seriously need to have more in the way of creativity and guile, particularly with the ball on the ground. We can’t keep relying on a one dimensional strategy of getting the ball out to Townsend/the left sided forward to cross a constant stream of crosses in. Milwall dealt with it easily, it was predictable.
Instead, the midfield and forwards need to be able to move the ball between the lines, to pull the opposition defence out of position and to go past a player where needed. Over half of the clubs we play this season - I’d go as far as saying 3in every 4 games will be vs teams who come to defend against us and catch us on the break. Playing the way we have in the last 2 games won’t see us win enough to get top 2.
Spot on this. Strange thing about yesterday for me was I just dont think we played with anywhere near the same energy as those opening 3 games. So many times we won the ball on the turnover and there was a real lack of desire to get bodies forward. Even with the crosses which were coming in think and fast during the second half, I just dont think we was getting enough bodies into the box which is not something we have been guilty of so far this season.
I have no problem with being direct, I just think there has to be a bit more balance to our play which we had in those opening games. I also think he got the front 3 wrong and im hoping he changes it for Derby. My 3 would be Grady left, Hugil central and Robinson on the right.
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Spot on this. Strange thing about yesterday for me was I just dont think we played with anywhere near the same energy as those opening 3 games. So many times we won the ball on the turnover and there was a real lack of desire to get bodies forward. Even with the crosses which were coming in think and fast during the second half, I just dont think we was getting enough bodies into the box which is not something we have been guilty of so far this season.
I have no problem with being direct, I just think there has to be a bit more balance to our play which we had in those opening games. I also think he got the front 3 wrong and im hoping he changes it for Derby. My 3 would be Grady left, Hugil central and Robinson on the right.
I fully agree. There was a lack of intensity for whatever reason. I also agree with your choice of the front three. We have to play with a proper centre forward and Hugill is the only one we have. Phillips continues to blow hot and cold, as he has done for 5 plus years. And he is not a centre forward.
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I believe that the method and style that Val wishes to play works well when it’s implemented correctly. This shows with the performance and result against Sheffield United. However when it’s not implemented 100% it looks awful as yesterday. In my opinion yesterday the intensity and pressing was well short of where it needs to be. I suppose that when you are changing a style it takes more than 5 games to get it embedded into the players. I hope that’s the case and not a lack of buy in from the players.
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I don't think it is a lack of intensity on the part of the players. I think there are teams and Millwall might be the best example that are very happy to sit deep aren't going to play out from the back and as for compressing space that actually helps them because they are most comfortable at defending small spaces against aerial threats. There were occasions when they had the ball and made a couple of passes but at the first hint of a press they leathered it up field there wasn't even an attempt to find a pass.
Verticality and being a threat from set pieces works well when a team is out of defensive shape. Getting the ball forward quickly even in a fairly helter-skelter manner works well against out of shape defences and following this up with good set piece delivery cuts down their options for clearing the ball into touch and pushes them into trying to play out. However if the defence is never out of shape and capable of dealing with set pieces what is in other circumstances is a strength rapidly becomes a hinderance.
Klopp's Liverpool really struggled against us under Pulis. Klopp probably had rarely encountered a team that had so little interest in having the ball. However eventually the penny dropped and in our final meeting with him under Pulis they barely pressed us and just waited for us to give up possession and played through us.
We need to do something similar. Millwall were happy to give us the ball we should accept the gift and work with it to move the defence into places they didn't want to be. On the few occasions we got behind them they were very quickly at sixes and sevens. The penalty came from such a situation albeit one we worked from corner.
I am not entirely surprised this has been a stumbling block. In Ismael's shoes I would focus entirely on getting the basics right and drumming the principles into the squad. However we have now reached the point where he needs to find adaptations to the basic approach.
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Somebody either on this thread or in the post match thread suggested we should consider 3 central midfielders. This does seem a sensible compromise. You would have the wing backs still to provide the width and we could deploy Robinson/Grant/Phillips/Diangana/Tulloch in a slightly wider role if he didn’t want them too narrow, but the 3 man midfield would possibly allow us to deploy a player such as Robert Snodgrass who might be able to put his foot on the ball.
Hopefully Ismael shows some flexibility of approach.
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I don't think the drop off in effectiveness is any lack of effort or buy-in from the players. Just wondering if the somewhat reduced intensity of forward support is about the rest of the team not having the confidence in the present defenders behind them. Maybe trying trying to give some cover and not over committing forward, but resulting in never being in the right place at the right time.
Also think that quite a few have got it right when they cite team selection as well, although obviously there will be differences of detail in opinions. I have felt for some time that Diangana needs at least one other 'footballer' alongside him. Robinson sort of plays that role better than any of the others with us at the moment, so for me they would start. Grant, Phillips, and A N Other filling the other wide role. I have not seen enough of any of the newer guys to see them as anything but cover at the moment so will reserve judgement, but hope at least one is a gem.
Also think we need to remember we are still a work in progress. What we are witnessing is not as some seem to believe "Valball". We are still learning as a team and as a club the first 3 chords, and until we can play these faultlessly and without hesitation, we ain't going to mek no music. Whether the music is classical, jazz, pop, folk, country or c-rap remains to be seen. At the moment it is a bit b flat, but hopefully we can become a bit f sharper as time ticks on.
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...
Also think we need to remember we are still a work in progress. What we are witnessing is not as some seem to believe "Valball". We are still learning as a team and as a club the first 3 chords, and until we can play these faultlessly and without hesitation, we ain't going to mek no music. Whether the music is classical, jazz, pop, folk, country or c-rap remains to be seen. At the moment it is a bit b flat, but hopefully we can become a bit f sharper as time ticks on.
Seems like chopsticks played on a 16-key toy piano from all accounts
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Anyone like myself who wants to see us taking more care in possession and so improving passing quality might be a little concerned by Valerien's post-match comment (https://www.wba.co.uk/news/ismael-offers-millwall-assessment) that "we took too many touches".
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Anyone like myself who wants to see us taking more care in possession and so improving passing quality might be a little concerned by Valerien's post-match comment (https://www.wba.co.uk/news/ismael-offers-millwall-assessment) that "we took too many touches".
Was discussing this with my old man yesterday . Val must have seen a different game to me the whole problem was we didn’t take enough touches .
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Now weve been kind of found out i do worry a tad ongoing
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Was discussing this with my old man yesterday . Val must have seen a different game to me the whole problem was we didn’t take enough touches .
When we did take enough touches it all looked rather pedestrian. Often suffering from a severe lack of movement in front of them.
We really do have to improve with the ball at feet - Robinson certainly helped as he played between the lines and brought some guile to our game.
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Anyone like myself who wants to see us taking more care in possession and so improving passing quality might be a little concerned by Valerien's post-match comment (https://www.wba.co.uk/news/ismael-offers-millwall-assessment) that "we took too many touches".
I know what Val is getting at. In some situations you need a maximum of 2 touches, ideally just one touch. Its how you get the opponent wrong footed. Watch how some of the top footballing sides move the ball around at speed, all with one touch. Gera used to do this perfectly. His one touch would send a forward clear, whereas a lesser player would take 3 or 4 touches, by which time the advantage was lost.
It all comes down to what some call 'technical skills'. Ability to trap and re-cyle the ball quickly and efficiently.
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I know what Val is getting at. In some situations you need a maximum of 2 touches, ideally just one touch. Its how you get the opponent wrong footed. Watch how some of the top footballing sides move the ball around at speed, all with one touch. Gera used to do this perfectly. His one touch would send a forward clear, whereas a lesser player would take 3 or 4 touches, by which time the advantage was lost.
It all comes down to what some call 'technical skills'. Ability to trap and re-cyle the ball quickly and efficiently.
Thank goodness somebody is aware of the methodology VI is attempting to install .
We have no Bobby Hope anyway - the genius he was - he would hopeless in this
System!
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Need to get the ball in quicker from the wingbacks, but it's no good if no-one on the end of it, so, the likes of Mowatt, Diangana, Grant, Robinson, Phillips, plus the opposite wingback need to bust a gut to get in there whenever it goes out wide quickly.
The tempo just wasn't there on Saturday and we kept allowing Millwall to reset their defence. More than once it was purely down to Phillips's obligatory step overs. >:(
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Watched the last two games on ESPN, the quality of football is horrible. We see to be Playing Rugby not football. Position rather than possession seems key
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I know what Val is getting at. In some situations you need a maximum of 2 touches, ideally just one touch. Its how you get the opponent wrong footed. Watch how some of the top footballing sides move the ball around at speed, all with one touch. Gera used to do this perfectly. His one touch would send a forward clear, whereas a lesser player would take 3 or 4 touches, by which time the advantage was lost.
It all comes down to what some call 'technical skills'. Ability to trap and re-cyle the ball quickly and efficiently.
There's a difference between 1 touch passes and how top footballing sides play and smashing it forward with their only touch.
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Watched the last two games on ESPN, the quality of football is horrible. We see to be Playing Rugby not football. Position rather than possession seems key
First half against Millwall was particularly terrible. Then he subs Grady off, our best performer of the front three, crazy decision and replaces him with a lump who never got close to the many crosses thrown into the box second half. We were crying out for a bit of composure and quality on the ball and didn’t get it until Robinson came on, although then he picked up possession and looked for some help and what was he surrounded by? No Pereira to make the difference. We lack quality and have signed a few journeymen players.
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First half against Millwall was particularly terrible. Then he subs Grady off, our best performer of the front three, crazy decision and replaces him with a lump who never got close to the many crosses thrown into the box second half. We were crying out for a bit of composure and quality on the ball and didn’t get it until Robinson came on, although then he picked up possession and looked for some help and what was he surrounded by? No Pereira to make the difference. We lack quality and have signed a few journeymen players.
I'm struggling to see how Pereira could be effective in this system. Val's style of play exactly suits the type of players we can afford.
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Put Robinson in and drop Kipre and everything will be rosy again. We will keep the ball much easier and look way better as a result.
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I'm struggling to see how Pereira could be effective in this system. Val's style of play exactly suits the type of players we can afford.
Your right to say that no footballer can be effective if all we are doing is booting the ball fifty feet into the air. Some of the balls played up to Grady were criminal.
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There's a difference between 1 touch passes and how top footballing sides play and smashing it forward with their only touch.
I think that's what VI was trying to convey with his post match comments, as in we got the latter when he's looking for the former.
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There's a difference between 1 touch passes and how top footballing sides play and smashing it forward with their only touch.
I'll agree with you there. A far as the one touch football I think Val was referring to, I've noticed Mowatt has got the right technique. He doesn't dither when he spots the right through pass. But just lumping it anywhere up the pitch is not going to get us far.
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Played better than Saturday but Derby are a poor side with Oap central defenders which his team couldn’t get the better of. Continuing to throw balls into box was meat and drink for those defenders , Val needs to come up with answers because the football doesn’t look great
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Tactics look very shallow. At Barnsley their opponents knew they would be in for a tough game but they weren't a team that was feared a such, teams didn't change their tactics for them.
As we have more quality they will for us. I'd imagine every team outside the top 6 now will just replicate Peterborough's tactics and happily take a point off us.
If this system is really all Val has then it could be a long 4 years or an expensive payoff.
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Tactics look very shallow. At Barnsley their opponents knew they would be in for a tough game but they weren't a team that was feared a such, teams didn't change their tactics for them.
As we have more quality they will for us. I'd imagine every team outside the top 6 now will just replicate Peterborough's tactics and happily take a point off us.
If this system is really all Val has then it could be a long 4 years or an expensive payoff.
Hopefully your last comment
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Hopefully your last comment
Why? What do you disagree with?
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It's lazy to say that Val only has one way of playing, even in this game we saw a difference between halves. First half was turgid at times, second half we ripped them apart for 40 odd minutes but couldn't take the chances. It's early days.
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It's lazy to say that Val only has one way of playing, even in this game we saw a difference between halves. First half was turgid at times, second half we ripped them apart for 40 odd minutes but couldn't take the chances. It's early days.
I do hope he changes his tactics. I've said it the last 2 games. I do like the guy but that becomes irrelevant if results don't follow.
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It's lazy to say that Val only has one way of playing, even in this game we saw a difference between halves. First half was turgid at times, second half we ripped them apart for 40 odd minutes but couldn't take the chances. It's early days.
Correct.
Patience and football fans don't go together I'm afraid. We're still unbeaten and joint top of the league. Things arent going too badly.
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Are people feeling his system hasn't been sussed and nullified then?
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Why? What do you disagree with?
your last comment was an expensive pay off.
For me this seems the inevitable.
The football is atrocious.
You can see why he was hired by our owners cheap and no budget to work with.
If we did go up it would be embarrassing
It's only tolerable if you win.
I know people keep mentioning it's similar to pulis but I think it's actually worse
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Are people feeling his system hasn't been sussed and nullified then?
Nah, just too many mediocre players looking mediocre. Entirely predictable. Our best goal scorers are Robinson, Grant and Grady and VI keeps dropping them and subbing them at half time for inferior players. We also have no goals in midfield save for Mowatt having given away our star player who would have made the difference.
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your last comment was an expensive pay off.
For me this seems the inevitable.
The football is atrocious.
You can see why he was hired by our owners cheap and no budget to work with.
If we did go up it would be embarrassing
It's only tolerable if you win.
I know people keep mentioning it's similar to pulis but I think it's actually worse
I completely misunderstood you sorry. I actually like the guy but if you can't adapt as a manger you are screwed. The club should have got him a quality striker in at this level no doubt as we are too lightweight up top.
Time will tell if this is a blip or a permanent problem.
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Nah, just too many mediocre players looking mediocre. Entirely predictable. Our best goal scorers are Robinson, Grant and Grady and VI keeps dropping them and subbing them at half time for inferior players. We also have no goals in midfield save for Mowatt having given away our star player who would have made the difference.
Wouldn't argue that we have some mediocre players but at this level we ar easily one of the better teams overall. Also agree he does get the personnel wrong here and there.
Why do you think we persist with lumping the ball at our small forwards who are competing against big lads. It literally makes no sense but the players have been told to do that.
I hope we make changes for Preston
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It's lazy to say that Val only has one way of playing, even in this game we saw a difference between halves. First half was turgid at times, second half we ripped them apart for 40 odd minutes but couldn't take the chances. It's early days.
Totally agree with this. We could and should have won by at least 3 goals based on second half. And it’s not the manager’s fault that we didn’t.
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Good coaches adapt just like good players might need to change it up a bit with another player in midfield and going to back four
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Good coaches adapt just like good players might need to change it up a bit with another player in midfield and going to back four
Yep. Lack of versatility makes us easy to play against. They know what's coming and can plan for it. The answer to our style of play has been shown the last few games
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I am slightly frustrated with the last couple of performances.
Our press has been nullified by the away teams and as such the intensity that Ismael craves is in short supply. Teams are not going to come here and allow us to be over them like a rash therefore we need to adapt.
I am not sure why any head coach worth their salt sees playing long ball to the likes of Robinson, Grant and Diangana who are much better with the ball at feet is the correct way to go against the likes of Wallace, Ballard, Cooper, Jagielka and Davies. That is meat and drink to those 6ft 3 and more defenders.
We are much better when we get the ball down, take some control and play through the opposition. Our best chances tonight came from good movement, overloads out wide clever play from wide men and runners into the box.
Surely Ismael can see that is a better way than the kick and rush of the last 3 games?
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All managers have their way of playing. These days their plan B is to make plan A better.
I dont buy this "we've been found out" lark, it's the Championship, it's a grind and you do have spells where things dont go your way.
You judge over a period of games, not after one or two games where you drop points. People over react and are too quick to do so.
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His comments tonight post match sound promising in the sense he admits there is a problem.
He admits we need to adapt to teams lack of attacking intent against us and just coming here and shutting up shop.
Preston will be interesting.
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His comments tonight post match sound promising in the sense he admits there is a problem.
He admits we need to adapt to teams lack of attacking intent against us and just coming here and shutting up shop.
Preston will be interesting.
Talking of attacking intent Derby could've played for 24 hours tonight and still wouldnt have scored. I dont think I've ever in my life attended a game where I've been less worried about the other team scoring.
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You judge over a period of games, not after one or two games where you drop points. People over react and are too quick to do so.
The fans wasted no time airing their thoughts either. Booed off after each half.
Whilst I agree it was dull as dishwater the two halves tonight were light and day. Certainly didn’t warrant the boos at full time.
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The fans wasted no time airing their thoughts either. Booed off after each half.
Whilst I agree it was dull as dishwater the two halves tonight were light and day. Certainly didn’t warrant the boos at full time.
Agreed. We couldn't have done any more second half. I've no problem with people booing at the final whistle if its warranted but it wasnt tonight.
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Talking of attacking intent Derby could've played for 24 hours tonight and still wouldnt have scored. I dont think I've ever in my life attended a game where I've been less worried about the other team scoring.
They literally were not bothered about scoring. Great point for them
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I read at the start of the year that his Barnsley tactics were just adapted to the team and he would adapt his tactics to the squad.
He has the best player in the league (Diangana) but doesn’t play to his strengths
I’ll let him off atm, but you have to play on the break and use pace of Diangana, Grant, Phillips, Robbo surely ?!
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Wouldn't argue that we have some mediocre players but at this level we ar easily one of the better teams overall. Also agree he does get the personnel wrong here and there.
Why do you think we persist with lumping the ball at our small forwards who are competing against big lads. It literally makes no sense but the players have been told to do that.
I hope we make changes for Preston
VI wants to dominate the territory and keep the play in the opposition box, on the basis that if we have 20 shots and they have three, we win most of the time. Second half we did that better by actually passing the ball to each other. Albeit against a weak and tiring Derby side. What VI didn't count on was big chances falling to Furlong twice and he also screwed things up by subbing our two best goalscorer at half time.
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VI wants to dominate the territory and keep the play in the opposition box, on the basis that if we have 20 shots and they have three, we win most of the time. Second half we did that better by actually passing the ball to each other. Albeit against a weak and tiring Derby side. What VI didn't count on was big chances falling to Furlong twice and he also screwed things up by subbing our two best goalscorer at half time.
I understand the idea behind the system but so do the opposition that's why they don't keep the ball anymore, they lump it back to us to lump it back to them. Teams are now very happy for us to have the ball. They don't want it in their danger areas so they give it right back and we can give it back, repeat ad nauseum.
A lot more football needs to come into this side now. He needs to modify his tactics. We are surely the easiest team for any opposition to prep for currently.They just go 3-4-3 and when the ball comes to our defensive third clear it out back to Albion.
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His system was probably more effective last year with Barnsley as teams would attack them more readily. Our problem is that most teams won't attack us at home.
Lets hope he can find a middle ground that suits us playing at home.
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Open letter to Val:
We don't have an out and out centre forward.
Stop lumping the ball up to the opposition centre halves. We don't have an out and out centre forward.
Play the ball on the floor my neck is killing me.
Get swivel chairs installed in the East and West stands so that we can keep up with the two goalkeepers kicking the ball to each other.
For gawds sake try and keep the ball below waist height for some part of the game, a bit like in the second half last night.
Why did you change to playing on the floor last night then take Robbo off?
See if you can sort out a centre forward for the Jan window.
Did I mention we don't have an out and out centre forward (not one that scores goals anyway)
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Open letter to Val:
We don't have an out and out centre forward.
Stop lumping the ball up to the opposition centre halves. We don't have an out and out centre forward.
Play the ball on the floor my neck is killing me.
Get swivel chairs installed in the East and West stands so that we can keep up with the two goalkeepers kicking the ball to each other.
For gawds sake try and keep the ball below waist height for some part of the game, a bit like in the second half last night.
Why did you change to playing on the floor last night then take Robbo off?
See if you can sort out a centre forward for the Jan window.
Did I mention we don't have an out and out centre forward (not one that scores goals anyway)
Is watching the vertical game more of a challenge in the Halfords? I imagine that if you are not in the front half of the stand a lot of the time the ball is out of sight. Any blanket & flask folks on here ?
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I always back any manager at our club but I wanted Wilder as our new manager and I have seen absolutely nothing to make me change my mind from VI. Two points from Milwall and Derby u18's is simply not good enough no matter how you dress it up and the football is dross to say the least.
I will give him some time to improve the football but I am not convinced he has any wish or ability to do so.
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agree with 79's last post, the football is horrendous and without a winning team sentiment will turn quickly.
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agree with 79's last post, the football is horrendous and without a winning team sentiment will turn quickly.
so like every other manager we’ve had.
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so like every other manager we’ve had.
I'd say most managers but not all. Darren Moore was in charge longer than he should have been purely based on sentiment.
Edit - With how the fans are boo'ing already i'd say he doesn't have that sentiment on his side.
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I'd say most managers but not all. Darren Moore was in charge longer than he should have been purely based on sentiment.
Edit - With how the fans are boo'ing already i'd say he doesn't have that sentiment on his side.
I think you’re vastly overestimating the power fans have in getting a manager fired.
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Val's style of play is essentially suited to the budget we have. It seems that the silky skilled midfielders and dead-eye centre forwards are out of our orbit - VI has a system that can accommodate the players we can afford.
regarding ambition/money Can't see a Russian plutocrat, a Saudi prince or far eastern mega-industrialist being interested in buying a Black country club - lacks the glamour of the West End of London, I guess.
We have to live with it. Would have preferred Neil Critchley and I will not be surprised if Blackpool to upset us when we meet.
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I think you’re vastly overestimating the power fans have in getting a manager fired.
I was referring to your reply to the comment from Tex.
Tex said without results sentiment will turn against VI quickly then you said like every other manager then and i replied about DM. I believe he was kept on longer than he should have been because of who he was to the club. Not because of the fans but because of his connections. I was saying VI doesn't have those so he might find his head on the chopping block a bit sooner.
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I was referring to your reply to the comment from Tex.
Tex said without results sentiment will turn against VI quickly then you said like every other manager then and i replied about DM. I believe he was kept on longer than he should have been because of who he was to the club. Not because of the fans but because of his connections. I was saying VI doesn't have those so he might find his head on the chopping block a bit sooner.
He's got a 4 year contract and our owner is broke so it's actually the opposite.
Whether he loses the goodwill of the supporters is neither here nor there.
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He's got a 4 year contract and our owner is broke so it's actually the opposite.
Whether he loses the goodwill of the supporters is neither here nor there.
I've not mentioned the goodwill of the supporters as being important in the owners reaching their decision. I said that in my post.
Lai is broke. He will sell anyone he can from our squad to fund any call he wants to make. We see that with the Pereira deal daftness.
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I was referring to your reply to the comment from Tex.
Tex said without results sentiment will turn against VI quickly then you said like every other manager then and i replied about DM. I believe he was kept on longer than he should have been because of who he was to the club. Not because of the fans but because of his connections. I was saying VI doesn't have those so he might find his head on the chopping block a bit sooner.
Think VI must have convinced our decision makers that he can deliver, otherwise he wouldn't have been given a four year contract.
I also think he's quite a pragmatic individual, & will find ways of winning football matches with what he's got.
It's clear that the football won't be pretty, but overall, I think he will be able to deliver.
He won't get sacked on aesthetic grounds, that's for sure.
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We played some decent stuff second half but lacked composure when we had the chances to score. Bottom line is that no matter who the manager is that if the players aren't very good then we will struggle and we have too many mediocre players now and lack star quality having given away you know you for no obvious financial reason.
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Think VI must have convinced our decision makers that he can deliver, otherwise he wouldn't have been given a four year contract.
I also think he's quite a pragmatic individual, & will find ways of winning football matches with what he's got.
It's clear that the football won't be pretty, but overall, I think he will be able to deliver.
He won't get sacked on aesthetic grounds, that's for sure.
The manner of football is irrelevant to me personally also John but if the results are consistently not great i don't think Lai will just sit back and watch his investment sink further. Of course Lai is primarily to blame for our position, he's useless. Despite saying that we have seen him get involved twice in recent months though (Wilder appointment and sale of Pereira).
Possible Lai has implemented a compensation limit in Ismaels contract setting a payout in event of sacking to a certain amount. It wouldn't be the first managerial contract to have such a clause but of course this is just me speculating.
I do quite like VI on a personal level and i also hope he sees that things need to change. He has said he does realise that after last night so i am genuinely looking forward to Saturday to see what changes are made.
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I've not mentioned the goodwill of the supporters as being important in the owners reaching their decision. I said that in my post.
Lai is broke. He will sell anyone he can from our squad to fund any call he wants to make. We see that with the Pereira deal daftness.
So he can't afford 3 and a half years compensation. He's not going any where and the style of football won't bother the owner for a second.
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So he can't afford 3 and a half years compensation. He's not going any where and the style of football won't bother the owner for a second.
Why are you bringing up style of football? It's not been mentioned by me. I'm purely talking about results being his potential downfall.
Of course he can afford compensation if push comes to shove, he may not have the cash to hand NOW but he has shown he will fund it from selling some of the squad if he needs too.
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We played some decent stuff second half but lacked composure when we had the chances to score. Bottom line is that no matter who the manager is that if the players aren't very good then we will struggle and we have too many mediocre players now and lack star quality having given away you know you for no obvious financial reason.
Not sure we did lack composure.
Furlong took a touch & looked up before his shot went over the bar, he knew exactly where he wanted to place the ball, it just didn't come off for him.
Bartley's shot was also an attempt to place the ball.
I don't think we should underestimate how well Derby played defensively, especially their keeper.
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Not sure we did lack composure.
Furlong took a touch & looked up before his shot went over the bar, he knew exactly where he wanted to place the ball, it just didn't come off for him.
Bartley's shot was also an attempt to place the ball.
I don't think we should underestimate how well Derby played defensively, especially their keeper.
Derby are an awful side, Blues dispatched them last week no problem. We should have done the same but we failed.
I do feel sorry for Ismael. He is getting no support from the powers above him so he is expected to build a promotion side on free transfers and loans. No way is that going to happen. We will be lucky to get in the play offs.
Some fans are getting carried away. If you look at the results they haven't really been that good. Failed to beat a Bournemouth team with half a team missing, Luton gave us two goals and we beat them by one goal, Blues put 5 past them the following week. Sheffield united were dire but are getting their act together now. A last minute winner against a side that will probably be relegated. Then we fail to beat two sides at home who will finish half way at best and in Derbys case will probably be relegated.
Add to all that a squad that is just too thin. When we get injuries and suspensions it will hit us hard as it already has.
Ismael is doing the best he can but he is fighting a losing battle. When the fans start the booing and chanting, and they will, they should aim it in the right direction and thats not at the manager !!
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Why are you bringing up style of football? It's not been mentioned by me. I'm purely talking about results being his potential downfall.
Of course he can afford compensation if push comes to shove, he may not have the cash to hand NOW but he has shown he will fund it from selling some of the squad if he needs too.
Edit - With how the fans are boo'ing already i'd say he doesn't have that sentiment on his side.
That's why?
No worries, you've somewhat clarified your position now ;D
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It seems odd that almost everyone was up for Valerien's style of football, even after what was a poor performance at Peterborough, and yet now, after a couple of draws, many seem to have changed their mind. We're still unbeaten in the league this season and we created a lot of chances last night in what was a much better performance than in the Peterborough game.
If we'd scored a winner against Derby or Milwall in injury time like we did at Peterborough, would everything be rosy again? If so, fickleness amonst our fans seems to be running rampant.
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It seems odd that almost everyone was up for Valerien's style of football, even after what was a poor performance at Peterborough, and yet now, after a couple of draws, many seem to have changed their mind. We're still unbeaten in the league this season and we created a lot of chances last night in what was a much better performance than in the Peterborough game.
If we'd scored a winner against Derby or Milwall in injury time like we did at Peterborough, would everything be rosy again? If so, fickleness amonst our fans seems to be running rampant.
Bang on
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Bang on
Bang off actually ! Most of what I have read isn't about style or points its about tactics.
Its hard to not be concerned when we play the first half against Derby in the same manner which was ineffective at Posh and against Millwall, Yes we did change it to "football" for the 2nd half but took "footballers" off again concerning.
Its perfectly reasonable to comment on that in my opinion. VI is learning as are the squad, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss that on a forum surely ?
Personally I much preferred the 2nd half performance far more, it gives me hope of progression whereas the first half was frankly very depressing fare.
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It seems odd that almost everyone was up for Valerien's style of football, even after what was a poor performance at Peterborough, and yet now, after a couple of draws, many seem to have changed their mind. We're still unbeaten in the league this season and we created a lot of chances last night in what was a much better performance than in the Peterborough game.
If we'd scored a winner against Derby or Milwall in injury time like we did at Peterborough, would everything be rosy again? If so, fickleness amonst our fans seems to be running rampant.
No, everything wouldn't be rosy. I don't like to see "but we're top of the table" type excuses when there's clearly areas we should look to improve on.
Before the international break our tactics were working - might not be pretty but it was fun to watch, and exciting when we won the ball back so far up the pitch.
Since then we've played 2 teams who have worked us out. Against Millwall we didn't change gameplan at all, just carried on hoofing it up to their big defence who hoofed it back. Against Derby we did the same for 60-70mins, then we tried to get the ball down and only then did we start to carve regular chances out. Just watch the 2 games back again, we didn't close down anywhere near like we did in previous games because the opposition came with a plan that meant the ball wasn't in their third of the pitch for more than about a millisecond.
We need to react to that else it won't be long before you can't justify it with "we're top of the table" or "we're unbeaten".
As with Pulis, while you get results, the style of football can be overlooked. If you don't get the results then awful football will be criticised harder and earlier.
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As with Pulis, while you get results, the style of football can be overlooked. If you don't get the results then awful football will be criticised harder and earlier.
Pulis's style of football is far worse than Valerien's and I could never accept the former, regardless of the result.
All I'm suggesting is that it's early days and things aren't perfect, but we're second nonetheless, so why doesn't everyone give it a bit of time before piling onto the manager?
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Pulis's style of football is far worse than Valerien's and I could never accept the former, regardless of the result.
All I'm suggesting is that it's early days and things aren't perfect, but we're second nonetheless, so why doesn't everyone give it a bit of time before piling onto the manager?
Really, you never celebrated a win under Pulis? The Millwall game was as bad as anything under Pulis.
Anyway, my point is that the reason people are concerned is that, especially against Millwall, we just kept doing the same thing over and over again when it clearly wasn't working.
It's causing discussion because we were warned Val doesn't have much of a Plan B and it appears that may be the case.
The jury is still out though because I thought we played some lovely stuff last 20-30 mins vs Derby so maybe he will consider a different approach where it's needed. Time will tell.
Nobody is calling for his head but if the results dry up, and we keep playing like we did against teams that just out hoof us then fans will be right to criticise the manager.
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Not sure we did lack composure.
Furlong took a touch & looked up before his shot went over the bar, he knew exactly where he wanted to place the ball, it just didn't come off for him.
Bartley's shot was also an attempt to place the ball.
I don't think we should underestimate how well Derby played defensively, especially their keeper.
It was terrible from Furlong, but he's a very poor footballer, so it's not so surprising that faced with an open goal and the luxury of the time to take a touch that he can't even manage to hit the target. Even with someone as limited as Charlie Austin we would have beaten Derby comfortably.
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Amnesia seems to be a perennial problem for football fans. I always find comments like "Its the worst game of football for the last 30 years" or "its worse than anything under______ quite amusing". I have sat through so many terrible games over the years under lots of our managers (Gould, Little, Buckley, Robson, Pulis, Pardew etc)
We are clearly not playing that well at the moment but Val has managed us for 8 competitive games and in the league we are unbeaten.
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Amnesia seems to be a perennial problem for football fans. I always find comments like "Its the worst game of football for the last 30 years" or "its worse than anything under______ quite amusing". I have sat through so many terrible games over the years under lots of our managers (Gould, Little, Buckley, Robson, Pulis, Pardew etc)
We are clearly not playing that well at the moment but Val has managed us for 8 competitive games and in the league we are unbeaten.
You're right mate. There wasnt even anything wrong with the second half performance the other night other than we didnt find the net. It wasnt negative it wasnt crude and it wasnt dull.
People love to moan and they talk absolute rubbish (on social media generally) like when they try and compare Valball to Pulis. Just complete and utter nonsense.
I've seen us get trounced 5 by the likes of Crewe and Grimsby. Now that really was bad.
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It was terrible from Furlong, but he's a very poor footballer, so it's not so surprising that faced with an open goal and the luxury of the time to take a touch that he can't even manage to hit the target. Even with someone as limited as Charlie Austin we would have beaten Derby comfortably.
I'd be interested to know who you think is a good footballer?
Personally, I accept that players sometimes make mistakes.
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It was terrible from Furlong, but he's a very poor footballer, so it's not so surprising that faced with an open goal and the luxury of the time to take a touch that he can't even manage to hit the target. Even with someone as limited as Charlie Austin we would have beaten Derby comfortably.
Austin most likely wouldn't have been in that position though, he's not a RWB.
In fact, none of the chances fell to forwards and that's something that needs addressing. When we started playing football, our two best finishers were not on the pitch.
If we continue to play like we did second half, from the start, when the likes of Grant and/or Robinson are on, they will score.
As it was, we could still have won comfortably, barring an excellent/jammy goalkeeping performance and poor finishing.
If we had carried on in the same vein, in the second half, then I could fully understand all the criticism, but, for me the changes we made, at half time, render the "lack of Plan B" argument moot. The second half was Plan B and, if we'd have took one of the many chances, it would have worked.
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I cannot say that I have enjoyed the last two games, but the overreaction to them has been quite staggering really. Could not believe the boos that I heard at half time and full time the other night :-X
We (at the time) were top of the league and unbeaten this season in seven games in a league that is, quite frankly, mental. We had one awful performance against Milwall who turned up and did a job on us and a poor half against Derby but there were certainly plenty of positives from the second half in that match.
I think we have to factor in that our squad is decent at this level, but it is hardly amazing, Livermore is still bumbling around in the midfield offering absolutely nothing, Furlong is a terrible footballer who is better with head and hands than his feet, we do not have a recognised central striker of note and, with the injuries in defence, we are down to playing a lower Championship at best standard left back at centre back. Compare it to Fulham's squad and it is chalk and cheese, the amount of options they have as well as a proven, international quality centre forward, they have invested and we, as ever, have not.
Keep the faith chaps.
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Austin most likely wouldn't have been in that position though, he's not a RWB.
In fact, none of the chances fell to forwards and that's something that needs addressing. When we started playing football, our two best finishers were not on the pitch.
If we continue to play like we did second half, from the start, when the likes of Grant and/or Robinson are on, they will score.
As it was, we could still have won comfortably, barring an excellent/jammy goalkeeping performance and poor finishing.
If we had carried on in the same vein, in the second half, then I could fully understand all the criticism, but, for me the changes we made, at half time, render the "lack of Plan B" argument moot. The second half was Plan B and, if we'd have took one of the many chances, it would have worked.
I agree with much of what you said, but am struggling with the idea that you and some others have stated that Grant is one of our best two goalscorers/finishers. He's scored just twice for us in approaching 30 appearances now, so whatever he once did for Huddersfield, he's very clearly not doing it for us and that's despite him being played this season in his favourite position. Hugill has a significantly better scoring record than that, as do some of our central defenders!
Grant needs to step up quickly or we should switch Diangana to that side. Valerien won't keep playing anyone who isn't pulling their weight, although I do have a little concern that it doesn't necessarily apply to Livermore. I was also surprised that it was Snodgrass (who's out of contract at the end of the season), rather than Molumby who came on on Tuesday. As we've been stuttering a bit, I think it's time for us to see what Molumby can bring to the party.
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........we are down to playing a lower Championship at best standard left back at centre back.....
I hope you've got a tin hat. Atomic's going up like a mushroom cloud when he reads this descriptor of the pert buttocked one ;D .
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I hope you've got a tin hat. Atomic's going up like a mushroom cloud when he reads this descriptor of the pert buttocked one ;D .
The tin hat is always primed and ready when posting on here ;D
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I for one am concerned over the style of football we have seen so far , some of the passing and hacking is almost non league at times from players we know can do better . The attacking stats can say what they like but lofting balls into keepers hand or defenders heads isn't good enough at all for me , I also believe VI is too quick to make big changes with the forward three ....Grant's not doing enough lets see if he starts at Preston.
All that said it is early still and too soon to get carried away just yet either way , its a project so will need time. (and a real forward ;D )
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I agree with much of what you said, but am struggling with the idea that you and some others have stated that Grant is one of our best two goalscorers/finishers. He's scored just twice for us in approaching 30 appearances now, so whatever he once did for Huddersfield, he's very clearly not doing it for us and that's despite him being played this season in his favourite position. Hugill has a significantly better scoring record than that, as do some of our central defenders!
Grant needs to step up quickly or we should switch Diangana to that side. Valerien won't keep playing anyone who isn't pulling their weight, although I do have a little concern that it doesn't necessarily apply to Livermore. I was also surprised that it was Snodgrass (who's out of contract at the end of the season), rather than Molumby who came on on Tuesday. As we've been stuttering a bit, I think it's time for us to see what Molumby can bring to the party.
Grant was better in the early games though, to be fair, so if we can play like we did second half when he's on the pitch, he can have no excuses.
I'd still rather him on the end of a cross than Furlong. ;)
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Amnesia seems to be a perennial problem for football fans. I always find comments like "Its the worst game of football for the last 30 years" or "its worse than anything under______ quite amusing". I have sat through so many terrible games over the years under lots of our managers (Gould, Little, Buckley, Robson, Pulis, Pardew etc)
We are clearly not playing that well at the moment but Val has managed us for 8 competitive games and in the league we are unbeaten.
There it is! The old I was around in the Buckley era argument etc. Doesn't take away from the fact that the last 3 performances have been poor and certainly don't reflect promotion form
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There it is! The old I was around in the Buckley era argument etc. Doesn't take away from the fact that the last 3 performances have been poor and certainly don't reflect promotion form
We've taken 5 points from those 3 games though, which, extrapolated over 46 games, equates to roughly 77 points which would usually get you into the top 6.
I agree we've been sub-par but it's far from crisis point.
The second half suggests that VI has taken stock of the issue so, hopefully, we will see further improvement on Saturday.
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I hope you've got a tin hat. Atomic's going up like a mushroom cloud when he reads this descriptor of the pert buttocked one ;D .
Ha ha.
No. There's no accounting for people and their opinions, prejudices or agendas.
Mind you, it's nice that Townsend has progressed from being "league one level". ;)
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Really, you never celebrated a win under Pulis? The Millwall game was as bad as anything under Pulis.
No I genuinely never celebrated a win under Pulis. As far as I was concerned, it was the dark ages for us regardless of the result. I haven't looked at the stats, but others have stated what we had about 25 shots against Derby on Tuesday - we'd be lucky to get that in total in 4 games when Pulis was here!
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Ha ha.
No. There's no accounting for people and their opinions, prejudices or agendas.
Mind you, it's nice that Townsend has progressed from being "league one level". ;)
See, I was giving him credit, he has definitely improved in the past couple of seasons, he just remains very limited. Not sure you can call it an agenda really, it is just someone who has watched a lot of football forming an opinion. He is better than Furlong...does that help?
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There it is! The old I was around in the Buckley era argument etc. Doesn't take away from the fact that the last 3 performances have been poor and certainly don't reflect promotion form
6 games in. Really!
Playing way below how well you can play and still not losing does in fact reflect promotion form, don't it?
We all know there are far better performances in the team, and we are making a lot of shooting opportunities. Take a few and see what that does.
Criticism is fine, and if constructive is helpful, but judging a team and a manager on the first 6 games of a completely new system, and condemning a new player after his first kick and something you've read or heard on 'social meeja' is just meaningless.
Come on! Remember this is West Bromwich Albion we support, not Blowing the Big Bucks Billybolax.
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There it is! The old I was around in the Buckley era argument etc. Doesn't take away from the fact that the last 3 performances have been poor and certainly don't reflect promotion form
I generally respond in conversations to the actual questions posted rather than hypotheticals. The comments were “this is worse than anything Pulis served up†and in the match day thread “worse game I’ve seen in 40 yearsâ€. I stated we have amnesia because Buckley, Pardew etc were less than 40 years ago and we had games under Pulis that were atrocious. Also to make a comment like that you have to go back through every game.....
We were Absolutely terrible against Milwall, I was pointing out how those comments always get thrown out with very little evidence....
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See, I was giving him credit, he has definitely improved in the past couple of seasons, he just remains very limited. Not sure you can call it an agenda really, it is just someone who has watched a lot of football forming an opinion. He is better than Furlong...does that help?
God how I hate statistics: But does anybody have any comparison stats for the two of em? I wouldnt think they are too far apart, and both have improved.
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No I genuinely never celebrated a win under Pulis. As far as I was concerned, it was the dark ages for us regardless of the result. I haven't looked at the stats, but others have stated what we had about 25 shots against Derby on Tuesday - we'd be lucky to get that in total in 4 games when Pulis was here!
Not to derail the VI topic but lets not forget Pulis came to us with Boro and stuck 3 past us and could have been 5 that day , he took 6 points off us that season too :o .
I'm all for a new direction , as stated it's too early to judge but Millwall , Peterborough and 45 mins against Derby was classic Pulis in many ways . Lofted balls to nobody or straight on a defenders head are not progressive football traits , we play 3 fowards so we need to be using width and threaded balls imo .
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6 games in. Really!
Playing way below how well you can play and still not losing does in fact reflect promotion form, don't it?
We all know there are far better performances in the team, and we are making a lot of shooting opportunities. Take a few and see what that does.
Criticism is fine, and if constructive is helpful, but judging a team and a manager on the first 6 games of a completely new system, and condemning a new player after his first kick and something you've read or heard on 'social meeja' is just meaningless.
Come on! Remember this is West Bromwich Albion we support, not Blowing the Big Bucks Billybolax.
We've already seen what happens mate, we batter teams. Sheff Utd and Luton. Although these will be dressed up by some as "Oh but Sheff Utd were rubbish then" or "but we gave Luton 2 goals and were lucky to scrape it"
Fact is, we should have had 6 before Luton even got a kick and Sheff Utd were just destroyed.
Of course, it would be mad to hold these performances up as the standard, just as much as it is Millwall and Derby, the status quo is somewhere in the middle and, over the season, results, and points, will reflect that.
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We've already seen what happens mate, we batter teams. Sheff Utd and Luton. Although these will be dressed up by some as "Oh but Sheff Utd were rubbish then" or "but we gave Luton 2 goals and were lucky to scrape it"
Fact is, we should have had 6 before Luton even got a kick and Sheff Utd were just destroyed.
Of course, it would be mad to hold these performances up as the standard, just as much as it is Millwall and Derby, the status quo is somewhere in the middle and, over the season, results, and points, will reflect that.
Entirely sensible and reasonable post !
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For me ,unbeaten after 7 league games shows we are heading in the right direction. It’s all about results , great on those occasions where the performance is spot on as well but just compare it to the last one and a half seasons . The squad certainly in terms of numbers is limited. If we had our time again how many of the squad would we sign again ? Val for me is doing a great job given the players he has to choose from .
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We've already seen what happens mate, we batter teams. Sheff Utd and Luton. Although these will be dressed up by some as "Oh but Sheff Utd were rubbish then" or "but we gave Luton 2 goals and were lucky to scrape it"
Fact is, we should have had 6 before Luton even got a kick and Sheff Utd were just destroyed.
Of course, it would be mad to hold these performances up as the standard, just as much as it is Millwall and Derby, the status quo is somewhere in the middle and, over the season, results, and points, will reflect that.
A good, reasonable, balanced post.
I have some frustrations with the last couple of matches - but lets face it - we would have hammered Derby in that second had we been able to put the ball in the onion bag. Nothing wrong with our performance in that second half.
The second half was far more promising for how it should be going forwards.
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A good, reasonable, balanced post.......
I'm not having this, ban him before it catches on.
Best to nip these kind of things in the bud.......
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I'm not having this, ban him before it catches on.
Best to nip these kind of things in the bud.......
Dangerous precedent, he should know better being an admin ! where is Oldbury when you need him ???
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Dangerous precedent, he should know better being an admin ! where is Oldbury when you need him ???
Indeed. A clear and blatant contravention of. com's soiling the bed policy. I'm confident Old Mother Oldbury will set the correct tone by banning them both with immediate effect. One for forum sedition and the other for dereliction of duty.
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The similarities between Val and Pulis' football are very limited. They both like getting the ball forward quickly, but the crucial difference is that Val expects the team to move up the pitch, whereas Pulis expected one big target man to manage with little or no help. Under Pulis the target man always got hopelessly isolated and outnumbered, so goal chances were always at a premium. Whereas VI wants to maximise our players in and around the oppo penalty box, and so increase the chances of it falling to one of them.
I agree that the long high balls whacked forward are not great to watch,and there is a difference between a 30-40 metre pass and a 30-40 metre hoof. The problem is a 30 or 40 metre pass along the ground has more chance of getting intercepted. Also a number of our players haven't the skillset to deliver 30-40 metre passes. And Val insists on getting the ball forward quickly.
I think its about playing our football in the final third, and having the players up there who are able to craft out chances. To do that you need strength in numbers in the oppo's half and in and around their penalty area, which is what VI is trying to do.
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Like Pullis?? Against Peterborough a CD scored a winner from OPEN PLAY in the 95th minute!! Now tell me it's anyway the same :D
I fo get their are similarities; a direct style and focus on set pieces but there it ends
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Like Pullis?? Against Peterborough a CD scored a winner from OPEN PLAY in the 95th minute!! Now tell me it's anyway the same :D
I fo get their are similarities; a direct style and focus on set pieces but there it ends
remind yourself of that when you are queuing for your neck brace. (joking)
In truth Nothing is as bad as Pulisball, and I cannot see that VI is cowardly in his approach, rudimentary yes, less flexible than I'd like - possibly (time will tell). This is a work in progress and we have to wait and see, but, its good to debate rather than have discussion stifled because all discussion is seen as either criticism or approval, when in fact it can simply be observations.
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remind yourself of that when you are queuing for your neck brace. (joking)
In truth Nothing is as bad as Pulisball, and I cannot see that VI is cowardly in his approach, rudimentary yes, less flexible than I'd like - possibly (time will tell). This is a work in progress and we have to wait and see, but, its good to debate rather than have discussion stifled because all discussion is seen as either criticism or approval, when in fact it can simply be observations.
Sanity and reason ? What's happening to the world ?
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4 decent games that was preceded with a good pre season and the last 3 games have been a little meh. Seems the 2nd half v Derby was good and VI has seen the issues that we as fans have seen.
Grady played on the left and put in a best performance of the season so let’s hope that is his starting position.
I think the formation will always be 3-4-3 but that front 3 can be a variation and was more of a 2-1 sometimes last season withBarnaley and his previous clubs so the front 3 dynamic seems to be the one that has most flexibility.
We’ve hit a sticky patch but I find boos and some of the comments a bit dramatic if I’m honest.
We’d have taken this position at the start of the season.
We’ve had big defensive issues but are currently on just 2 goals conceded in 5 games. I think things are alright.
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Things are going in the right direction. I think we must remind ourselves that we were awful last season, have lost most of our so called best players, spent two tenths of sweet FA on replacements and have yet to lose a league game. I for one would have taken that at the start of season. We can still improve for sure which is also extremely positive.
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My worry is that we will pick up a lot of draws and not many wins playing this way. It limits mistakes at the back and stops teams building attacks, but it also stops us from building attacks and relies heavily on mistakes or steals from the opposition defence as well as the set pieces. What we have seen last three games is that when we come up against a team that has little to no interest in winning against us and would be happy to draw we are unable to beat them playing this way. Perhaps it worked so well at Barnsley because less teams were happy to draw against them.
Ismael needs to be able to respond to this and he is going to have to work on two ways of playing which we can switch between during games else it will be the draws that cost us come the end of the season.
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I'm encouraged by Diangana's form at present, he's starting to look good again and we could have had 2 or 3 against Derby on another night. I'd like us to throw caution to the wind and get as many bodies in the box as possible whenever Grady's let loose on the left......and on that, VI should play him there permanently from now on.
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My worry is that we will pick up a lot of draws and not many wins playing this way. It limits mistakes at the back and stops teams building attacks, but it also stops us from building attacks and relies heavily on mistakes or steals from the opposition defence as well as the set pieces. What we have seen last three games is that when we come up against a team that has little to no interest in winning against us and would be happy to draw we are unable to beat them playing this way. Perhaps it worked so well at Barnsley because less teams were happy to draw against them.
Ismael needs to be able to respond to this and he is going to have to work on two ways of playing which we can switch between during games else it will be the draws that cost us come the end of the season.
Yes the value of draws to us in the chumps is wildly different to in the prem.
In the prem you can almost draw yourselves to safety, (ergo the Pulis "do not lose strategy"). Which is sadly our objective, however,
In the chumps 46 draws would see you relegated most years and most definitely not pushing for an auto promotion / play off spot. which is our objective there. As fans we are absolutely correct to be concerned about home draws in the chumps.
In our last promo season we drew 10 at home and it was our ability to win away (a remarkable 12 away wins) which ultimately got us promoted. We will do well to repeat that away form again this season and therefore need to improve the points yield at home IMO.
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Pulis' guiding principle was that you keep the ball OUT of play for as long as possible as it reduces the goalscoring chances of the opposing team. And then hope to nick a goal or 2 from set plays and hoofing it.
Valball couldn't be more different.
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The next two games will be very interesting. I can't see Preston at home or even QPR as the away side setting up in the same way that Peterborough or Derby did ie changing their whole set up to negate our press resulting in zero attempts at goal for the latter.
As I've said before I think this tactic genuinely took Val by surprise! Few teams will have done this for little Barnsley and I can't see many teams in a technical Austrian league turning to hoofball. To his credit he reacted within the game against Derby and was open about it in the presser after the match.
Unlike "he who should not be named" there can be no doubt Val DOES set out to win every game. Seeing a CD score an injury time winner in open play a few weeks ago was evidence of that and we were bombing on against Derby to the last. It could have ended up a strumping in the end rather than a draw.
The only similarity I can see between the two is operating a direct style to get the ball forward. This is where it ends though as for TP this was a defensive tactic wheras for Val it is very much to attack.
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For me I think he’s already on borrowed time. The fans won’t stomach this type of football simple as
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For me I think he’s already on borrowed time. The fans won’t stomach this type of football simple as
A truly unbelievable comment.
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Be interesting to hear his post match comments and to see what changes he is willing to make if any.
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A truly unbelievable comment.
It’s not mate, I didn’t say it was right, but it’s how modern fans work. The football the last 4 games has been awful.
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Valball isn’t doing it for me if I’m honest at it’s most intense it feels like rush football with little composure on the ball. With no intensity it’s easy to play against as Millwall Derby and Preston have shown, coach needs to start earning his pay as draws will not appease owner who is trigger happy when it comes to firing those at the helm.
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A truly unbelievable comment.
I am not sure it is to be honest. It won’t be long before VI knows our feelings from the terraces.
It’s not pretty to watch and it is not exactly delivering the goods at the moment.
I remain patient and await the point when the team ‘clicks’, but I have doubts about the whole plan.
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Heard someone describe the football as foosball which just about sums it up, whack it up they whack it back and teams are happy to accept the point against one of the 'bigger' teams in the division.
The real issue is I feel like we have set up with the 'B' team from last season, barely any of these players outside the defenders was first choice last season and poor recruitment has left us with a first team squad of forward/midfielders who should be bench options really if we want to be back in the prem.
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A truly unbelievable comment.
He'll see Xmas because we lumped on him.but this 'Bingo ball football is awful to watch lets be honest .
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Fulham have lost 2 of their last 3 wonder what they think
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Just saw someone on Instagram describe it as Pulis football without the ability to defend. I have to agree sadly.
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Heard someone describe the football as foosball which just about sums it up, whack it up they whack it back and teams are happy to accept the point against one of the 'bigger' teams in the division.
The real issue is I feel like we have set up with the 'B' team from last season, barely any of these players outside the defenders was first choice last season and poor recruitment has left us with a first team squad of forward/midfielders who should be bench options really if we want to be back in the prem.
agree mate the lack of quality is really concerning as no system works with inferior players they get found out pretty soon.
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I would hope that Lai wasn't daft enough to offer him a 4 year deal without some kind of compensation limit in the event of it all going tits up. I am not calling for his head to be clear.
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Just saw someone on Instagram describe it as Pulis football without the ability to defend. I have to agree sadly.
when Val style of play gets associated with Pulisball then you know something is wrong.
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Just saw someone on Instagram describe it as Pulis football without the ability to defend. I have to agree sadly.
It’s more ambitious than Pulisbal. Val does at least try to win the game. But the football is one dimensional, hit and hope rubbish. ‘Intensity’ and ‘philosophy’ are buzz words that are losing credibility quickly. We need to get out this league ASAP and he needs to wise up quickly.
The squad is good enough if used properly.
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Val needs a plan B. That's 3 games now on paper we should be winning. It's disjointed. If teams won't allow us to press we need to get the ball down and be creative.
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I’m not overly impressed with val ball Seen more intensity at the bingo all with all the ladies pushing for tickets, least we’ve not started parking the bus and hoping to nick a winner on the break away , to honest how can we press the ball when it’s continually being thumped down our end
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So Val out then...... :(
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Reminder, 8 games into a 46 game season in which we are unbeaten and 3rd in the table. And now talk of the Head Coach, of 8 competitive league games, being sacked from some quarters.
Does this really make sense to anyone?
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So Val out then...... :(
no show owner will have the knives out if we fall out of play off positions and if that happens Jimmy will be given job till summer.
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I keep saying it but Val isn't hearing me
This squad is 352
Keep saying he can still play his pressing game but my system gives a bit more security, can someone have a word please?
I'm a fan of his so I'm not having a go, we're unbeaten and top 3 but...
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Apparently there was an interview with Valerien broadcast on Radio WM before today's game, where Daz Hale asked him about disenchantment expressed on phone-ins by Albion fans about the quality of football. Valerien said something along the lines of "judge me at the end of the season", but did anyone hear all of this interview to be able to share more of what he said?
It's comical to me that many fans put up with Pulisball for 3 seasons without getting the knives out until close to the end and yet are sharpening them for Valerien after just 8 games when we're unbeaten and 2 points off the top. At least, unlike when Pulis was here, we're actually trying to win the games.
We also apparently can't defend, even though we've conceded less than a goal a game so far. ::)
We all know the quality needs to improve and I think Valerien has to shuffle the pack more now that we're stuttering a bit. Perhaps some of the players, being new to this more intensive style of play, are tired and need to be taken out of the firing line (if only our squad was strong/good enough to do this readily without weakening us overall). I was surprised that we only used 2 subs today when, to my mind, we should always use 3 every game.
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Reminder, 8 games into a 46 game season in which we are unbeaten and 3rd in the table. And now talk of the Head Coach, of 8 competitive league games, being sacked from some quarters.
Does this really make sense to anyone?
Your post perfectly sums up why it is outrageous to suggest that the guy is under pressure already. How much money has he been allowed to use on signings for goodness sake.
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Your post perfectly sums up why it is outrageous to suggest that the guy is under pressure already. How much money has he been allowed to use on signings for goodness sake.
Agreed
Hound him out we will end up with Alex Neil or worse
Be careful
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Reading social media comments he isn't 'Big' Val anymore....or 'my gaffer' how fickle we are eh!
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Reminder, 8 games into a 46 game season in which we are unbeaten and 3rd in the table. And now talk of the Head Coach, of 8 competitive league games, being sacked from some quarters.
Does this really make sense to anyone?
Has anyone actually said he should be sacked?
I think at the moment some are questioning the style and how much longer these shoddy displays are going to continue. If it carries on like this what happens then?
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Have been today, and I think that his changes to the team, both pre and in-game were poor decisions.
The continuance of playing Townsend at LCB , and including Reach, has weakened our
left side attack.
Reach is a fine crosser of the ball but weak in his overall play. Valerien strangely will not use Reach to take corners, preferring to use Furlong and Mowatt in that role.
He left out Grant and Robinson and appears to have lost faith in the Diangana, Robinson. Grant threesome that started the season so brightly.
Hughill and Phillips started.
Hughill was truly dreadful, yet stayed on the pitch for the whole game.
Phillips scored and had 2 other decent efforts.
Diangana was taken off for Grant, and Phillips went off for Robinson. but the managers persistance with playing hoofball failed .
Only used two subs again , surely a late introduction of Snodgrass may have opened the key to the door.
Not good enough Val
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Reading social media comments he isn't 'Big' Val anymore....or 'my gaffer' how fickle we are eh!
That's bizarre given that Allardyce won 4 games out of 25 and remains fondly as "Big Sam" in the eyes of some to this day.
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I think some of the comments on here are way over the top. He has got decent players to work with, but we didn't pay any fees for the latest intake, so you can't expect them to be winning 3 or 4 nil every week. We've stayed competitive and not looked the lesser of any of the teams we've played. I think he's still learning what is his most effective team and how to change things around during games.
Today I can't remember Preston really troubling SJ at all. Only for their goal having a lucky reflection, they wouldn't have scored. However, we should have created more chances and I think taking Phillips and Diangana off reduced our potency in the final third.
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I’m no fan of Val ball and have concerns about us going forward. However to put things into perspective we have the same points after 8 games as we did under Bilic. We have a inferior squad now to what we had back then IMO. Any criticism at the moment should be directed at the board for such a pathetic transfer window.
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Well after 4 poor performances against inferior teams coach is still persisting with his tactics and formation even though we have gone from a counter attacking team to a possession based team. Think we need a change of formation which gives us the opportunity to play an extra midfielder
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Apparently there was an interview with Valerien broadcast on Radio WM before today's game, where Daz Hale asked him about disenchantment expressed on phone-ins by Albion fans about the quality of football. Valerien said something along the lines of "judge me at the end of the season", but did anyone hear all of this interview to be able to share more of what he said?
It's comical to me that many fans put up with Pulisball for 3 seasons without getting the knives out until close to the end and yet are sharpening them for Valerien after just 8 games when we're unbeaten and 2 points off the top. At least, unlike when Pulis was here, we're actually trying to win the games.
We also apparently can't defend, even though we've conceded less than a goal a game so far. ::)
We all know the quality needs to improve and I think Valerien has to shuffle the pack more now that we're stuttering a bit. Perhaps some of the players, being new to this more intensive style of play, are tired and need to be taken out of the firing line (if only our squad was strong/good enough to do this readily without weakening us overall). I was surprised that we only used 2 subs today when, to my mind, we should always use 3 every game.
Pulis for his faults was in the Premier League , now we are at a much weaker level than previous seasons with 4 or 5 players who are much better than most players in the division . As with all clubs winning games masks poor performances , bottom line is these players are capable of so much more and this hoof ball / set piece football won't last much longer without results . My own view is its basic and bloody awful to watch but its a new direction and identity which the club has needed for a while now so he needs a fair run but performances need to improve pretty quickly .
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I'm impressed with the way he speaks and with his general conduct since he took charge. I honestly think this is one of the weakest squads we've had in some time in the championship. We've also been unfortunate to have injuries to two centre backs and key players, having two centre backs injured when you play three of them isn't exactly ideal. You can tell by the way he speaks he is driven by his philosophy and by data, he has a winning attitude and if we do get promoted he'll probably be the primary reason we accomplish this. The last few games have been disappointing but he has acknowledged this, we still could have won all of them despite our failings so perhaps we should reflect on this. We won't steamroller everyone we play like we did in some of the opening fixtures, there will be times we need to be more clinical with our chances and produce more quality in the final third to unlock the door. I do hope we find a better way of playing against the lesser sides in the division, they have clearly done their homework and I think it's still too easy to play against us. If teams are happy to surrender possession to us then we absolutely need to make our quality show. Having someone like Snodgrass play in the front 3 and drop into the hole could be a way of doing this, we need someone with a bit more guile on the ball. I think Val will find the solution hopefully sooner rather than later.
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Our squad might be a bit weaker - but that's only down to our board not spending a single penny despite having parachute payments, transfer income and reduced wage bill.
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I like his passion. I like the high press. I like the fact our players at least look for for a change.
I'd prefer if he was a little more flexible with formations, for instance if the wide players are not creating or performing play 2 up top with an extra man in the middle
Things I'd change , Livermore is attrocious. The first thing fat Sam did was to notice our centre midfield was awful and bombed Livermore and Sawyer's out of the team.
He has been let down by the owners regarding transfer funds so I can fully understand why Chris Wilder wasn't appointed.
I can imagine the conversation, what's our transfer pot?
Well we are going to try to sell our best player and our goalkeeper and you can sign free transfers and we want you to get us promoted.
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We’ve outperformed every team except Millwall on XG. Some people don’t like it but it’s normally a decent reflection over a season. We just lack a finisher. Get someone in Jan and it’ll be fine, heck, even carry on this form and we’ll go up as we’re averaging 2 points a game.
Also saw something on Twitter yesterday that we’re having on average 3.4 shots per game in the six yard box, that’s crazy. Bayern munich are the only team that get close to this in the top 5 leagues. Not all from throw ins either - 11 from open play, 9 from corners and 4 from throws. Once we start burying these chances we’ll kill this league. Teams are scared to play against us, Preston didn’t even complete 100 passes yesterday which is outrageous.
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It ain’t all that bad.
A third successive draw for the Baggies means that they have the same record from eight games as Slaven Bilić’s team from two seasons ago, four wins and four draws. Roberto di Matteo is the only Baggies boss to achieved more points from the opening eight games this century.
This season is only the fifth in Albion’s history in which the Baggies have remained unbeaten for the opening eight games of the season. Should they avoid defeat against QPR on Friday evening, it will match the club record of nine games unbeaten from the start of the season.
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My biggest gripe is when you’re playing with wing backs you don’t need proper wide players/wingers as well or else they just run in each other’s way and territory. Be better with an extra midfielder and two more central type strikers or inside forwards
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As i posted a few days ago, the football is dire and patience will be thin. I got shot down by some and yet here we are.
I hope Val learns from this and becomes a better manager, history is not on his side as most mangers/coaches need to be sacked before improving.
I doubt the hierarchy will make any changes until mid season and give him a chance. I begin to wonder if he was one of the few coaches that would work within the zero outlay policy set.
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It ain’t all that bad.
A third successive draw for the Baggies means that they have the same record from eight games as Slaven Bilić’s team from two seasons ago, four wins and four draws. Roberto di Matteo is the only Baggies boss to achieved more points from the opening eight games this century.
This season is only the fifth in Albion’s history in which the Baggies have remained unbeaten for the opening eight games of the season. Should they avoid defeat against QPR on Friday evening, it will match the club record of nine games unbeaten from the start of the season.
Don't be talking like that mate. Some people on here would have you believe that this squad is one of the worst in our history.
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As i posted a few days ago, the football is dire and patience will be thin. I got shot down by some and yet here we are.
I hope Val learns from this and becomes a better manager, history is not on his side as most mangers/coaches need to be sacked before improving.
I doubt the hierarchy will make any changes until mid season and give him a chance. I begin to wonder if he was one of the few coaches that would work within the zero outlay policy set.
Hierarchy won't make any changes as a four year contract takes a lot of paying off. He's shown he's a manager willing to work with frees and loans so another big tick. He has had sucess but is young and can develop
Bottom line is that he is the boards **** or bust card. So get used to him, ain't going nowhere unless we see a catastrophic run of results let alone unbeaten and top 6. And believe me the hierarchy don't give a flying fig what the football is like to watch or what the fans think.
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My biggest gripe is when you’re playing with wing backs you don’t need proper wide players/wingers as well or else they just run in each other’s way and territory. Be better with an extra midfielder and two more central type strikers or inside forwards
I think you'll find most of the top sides play with both. Its absolutely crucial to be able to stretch defences with wide players. However, it becomes too predictable if its just the one delivering crosses. There are many situations where the extra wideman makes an overlap past the winger/wingback and gets right in behind the defence. If its a player who lacks the pace or skill to get past his opposite number, the cross gets delivered from nearer the halfway line, which is generally much less dangerous. That's one slight criticism I have of Townsend.
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Who said the season would be easy? Fulham have lost to Blackpool and Reading. Sheff Utd have been struggling, so it looks like the relegated sides are not finding it easy. But, we're only eight games in, the guy is still finding out who he can and cannot trust. Like most of us, he must be scratching his head about the performances of some at this level, but will deal with it, when he can. Having said that, I feel he himself must be prepared to be more flexible with the tactics during games
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Who said the season would be easy? Fulham have lost to Blackpool and Reading. Sheff Utd have been struggling, so it looks like the relegated sides are not finding it easy. But, we're only eight games in, the guy is still finding out who he can and cannot trust. Like most of us, he must be scratching his head about the performances of some at this level, but will deal with it, when he can. Having said that, I feel he himself must be prepared to be more flexible with the tactics during games
I hope he's not scratching his head because the issue is clear as day. If the opposition get it up the pitch quickly we struggle as it negates our pressing game.
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Hierarchy won't make any changes as a four year contract takes a lot of paying off. He's shown he's a manager willing to work with frees and loans so another big tick. He has had sucess but is young and can develop
Bottom line is that he is the boards **** or bust card. So get used to him, ain't going nowhere unless we see a catastrophic run of results let alone unbeaten and top 6. And believe me the hierarchy don't give a flying fig what the football is like to watch or what the fans think.
So not a plan to build for the future more of a band aid and hope
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I think you'll find most of the top sides play with both. Its absolutely crucial to be able to stretch defences with wide players. However, it becomes too predictable if its just the one delivering crosses. There are many situations where the extra wideman makes an overlap past the winger/wingback and gets right in behind the defence. If its a player who lacks the pace or skill to get past his opposite number, the cross gets delivered from nearer the halfway line, which is generally much less dangerous. That's one slight criticism I have of Townsend.
If your 2 up front are the likes of Grant , Robinson etc both are capable of going wide to me 352 is much more flexible than 343.
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I think you'll find most of the top sides play with both. Its absolutely crucial to be able to stretch defences with wide players. However, it becomes too predictable if its just the one delivering crosses. There are many situations where the extra wideman makes an overlap past the winger/wingback and gets right in behind the defence. If its a player who lacks the pace or skill to get past his opposite number, the cross gets delivered from nearer the halfway line, which is generally much less dangerous. That's one slight criticism I have of Townsend.
This. When you are confronted with a packed, low block defence you need to get to the by-line and play the ball such that the defenders are facing their own goal - that's much trickier for them and easier for nippy attackers to dive in and score. One way of getting to the by-line is having a winger with outstanding skills (e.g. Willie Johnstone) then at least the defence must double-team on him, the other way is using overlapping wingers and full backs.
Just slinging crosses in from 25 yards out is meat and drink to such organised defenders.
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This. When you are confronted with a packed, low block defence you need to get to the by-line and play the ball such that the defenders are facing their own goal - that's much trickier for them and easier for nippy attackers to dive in and score. One way of getting to the by-line is having a winger with outstanding skills (e.g. Willie Johnstone) then at least the defence must double-team on him, the other way is using overlapping wingers and full backs.
Just slinging crosses in from 25 yards out is meat and drink to such organised defenders.
Twas ever thus, get defenders turned around and you will cause them problems. just think about our central defenders even the good ones Jonas / Gmac / Hegazi / Ajayi all better with balls coming into them from the front than having to turn and re-adjust,
I will concede GMac made up a lot for this deficiency with excellent positional sense.
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My biggest gripe is when you’re playing with wing backs you don’t need proper wide players/wingers as well or else they just run in each other’s way and territory. Be better with an extra midfielder and two more central type strikers or inside forwards
That seemed to be happening too much on Sat, yes.
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That seemed to be happening too much on Sat, yes.
I dont think it matters what title they have, in Valball they should all be flooding forward causing confusion and dis-organisation. (kick and chase of yesteryear)
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If your 2 up front are the likes of Grant , Robinson etc both are capable of going wide to me 352 is much more flexible than 343.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not a fan of playing 2 up top. You need to keep a presence in the goalmouth area to meet crosses, and dragging one of your forwards out wide leaves you short.
At the same time you need to create 2 against one situations out wide, where possible, which an overlapping winger/wing back allows.
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You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm not a fan of playing 2 up top. You need to keep a presence in the goalmouth area to meet crosses, and dragging one of your forwards out wide leaves you short.
At the same time you need to create 2 against one situations out wide, where possible, which an overlapping winger/wing back allows.
Surely it depends on who the top two are.
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Surely it depends on who the top are.
JRod & Gayle would never work
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Hopefully we will see Robinson up top on Friday. No idea why he was dropped from the position in the first place. He offers way more than Hugill ever will. Put Philips and Diangana either side of him. Also, stop playing Townsend in the back 3. If Val has 'faith' in our youngsters try one of them as he claims he would. We need a positive display this week, orc the knives will be sharpened.
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We need a positive display this week, or the knives will be sharpened.
Let's revisit Allardyce's first 9 games in charge shall we, when there was a notable lack of knives being sharpened on here. Indeed, as I recall, many were falling over each other to make excuses for him:
Villa: Lost 3-0
Liverpool: Drew 1-1
Leeds: Lost 5-0
Arsenal: Lost 4-0
Wolves: Won 3-2
West Ham: Lost 2-1
Man City: Lost 5-0
Fulham: Drew 2-2
Sheff U: Lost 2-1
W1 D2 L6 F8 A26 Pts 5
The above "achieved" with a grim style of play too.
Let's look at Valerien's record so far:
W4 D4 L0 F14 A7 Pts 16
Yet people are getting ready to sharpen their knives for him dependent on Friday's display? Incredible!
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I think Val will get this right he must have faced a similar problem when he was at LASK as they are one of the bigger draw Austrain teams teams will have come to take a draw from them. In his match comments he’s been consistent in saying it needs to be better in the final 3rd.
I think our big problems stem from the back 3 Ajayi & Bartley have barely been able to keep the ball in play when it’s come at them & if they have been put under any slight pressure it’s just been lumped 40 yards forward to absolutely no one. O’Shea & Clarke have been big misses as they are better on the ball. Semi has been an absolute disaster with the ball at his feet so far this year you’d expect far better considering he used to be a defensive mid.
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Let's revisit Allardyce's first 9 games in charge shall we, when there was a notable lack of knives being sharpened on here. Indeed, as I recall, many were falling over each other to make excuses for him:
Villa: Lost 3-0
Liverpool: Drew 1-1
Leeds: Lost 5-0
Arsenal: Lost 4-0
Wolves: Won 3-2
West Ham: Lost 2-1
Man City: Lost 5-0
Fulham: Drew 2-2
Sheff U: Lost 2-1
W1 D2 L6 F8 A26 Pts 5
The above "achieved" with a grim style of play too. Very few knives were sharpened at that time.
Let's look at Valerien's record so far:
W4 D4 L0 F14 A7 Pts 16
Yet people are getting ready to sharpen their knives for him dependent on Friday's display? Incredible!
Absolutely agree with this . The in over Wolves May have saved him from a certain amount of stick but our performances in majority of other games was dire. I have seen on other platforms some wanting him back , God forbid . If that ever came to pass my season tkt would be going back with a very impolite accompanying letter ! People were warned they may not like Ishmaels style but having lost 2 of what seem to be his first choice defenders to lengthy injuries yet still be unbeaten must say something about what he is trying to do !
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Let's revisit Allardyce's first 9 games in charge shall we, when there was a notable lack of knives being sharpened on here. Indeed, as I recall, many were falling over each other to make excuses for him:
Villa: Lost 3-0
Liverpool: Drew 1-1
Leeds: Lost 5-0
Arsenal: Lost 4-0
Wolves: Won 3-2
West Ham: Lost 2-1
Man City: Lost 5-0
Fulham: Drew 2-2
Sheff U: Lost 2-1
W1 D2 L6 F8 A26 Pts 5
The above "achieved" with a grim style of play too.
Let's look at Valerien's record so far:
W4 D4 L0 F14 A7 Pts 16
Yet people are getting ready to sharpen their knives for him dependent on Friday's display? Incredible!
Mods were quick to shut down Bilic/Allardyce comparison posts so not sure why we're going down this route. However, while it's in play I'll bite: What I'd suggest is take a look at the opposition in that list compared to the also rans we've played this season. Couple it with what had come before and our current expectations. Not a stretch to see why some quarters are already getting antsy.
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What I'd suggest is take a look at the opposition in that list compared to the also rans we've played this season. Couple it with what had come before and our current expectations. Not a stretch to see why some quarters are already getting antsy.
As I recall what came before Valerien arriving was a completely abject relegation, with many of the players who featured regularly during that still being here. Also what came before was a transfer window where the only money we paid in a transfer fee was for the manager.
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What we're our first 9 games results of 20/21 season?
Surely that's the first true comparison and by the way that was in the premier
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I cant believe some of the things I'm reading. Not being rude but it's like being back in the playground as an eleven year old.
I used to have Albion fans down as some of the most knowledgeable in football, now, certainly not (probably) a vocal minority.
Ismael has been in charge for 8 (league games). We have lost none and are joint second and some people are talking about sharpening knives.
Words cant really describe it.
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What we're our first 9 games results of 20/21 season?
Surely that's the first true comparison and by the way that was in the premier
Someone posted on that the other day, almost identical !
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I cant believe some of the things I'm reading. Not being rude but it's like being back in the playground as an eleven year old.........
You must be new here ;D .
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You must be new here ;D .
I might be, dont know anything anymore my brain is just frazzled.
Help!
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I might be, dont know anything anymore my brain is just frazzled.
Help!
Don't be too hard on yourself, when push comes to shove it's probably Jake's fault ;D .
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I cant believe some of the things I'm reading. Not being rude but it's like being back in the playground as an eleven year old.
I used to have Albion fans down as some of the most knowledgeable in football, now, certainly not (probably) a vocal minority.
Ismael has been in charge for 8 (league games). We have lost none and are joint second and some people are talking about sharpening knives.
Words cant really describe it.
Why are you surprised? We had posters calling for Bilic to be sacked after leading a half-decent squad without a goalscorer to 83 points and automatic promotion. The same posters will want Valerien out soon enough. It's what they do - set unrealistic goals, call for managers to be sacked and then moan when the club deteriorates in quality every year. It's the same mindset that has led the Oldham chairman to appoint seven managers in 19 months and to lead them to bottom of league two.
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As I recall what came before Valerien arriving was a completely abject relegation, with many of the players who featured regularly during that still being here. Also what came before was a transfer window where the only money we paid in a transfer fee was for the manager.
Just to say that I totally agree with your last two posts. We have not lost yet whilst players are adapting to a very new system and of course we have lost two very good defenders, especially good in terms of how VI is getting us to play. Keep the faith!!
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Do people genuinely believe we/Ismael have been found out to the point where the style & system are now broken beyond repair?
Some people seem happy to write off the first 4 games as a fluke or anomaly, but then point to the last 4 games as cast iron proof that it doesn't work. I can't see how after just 8 games anyone can judge us/Ismael on anything other than the 8 games as whole, and at least factor in what he did at Barnsley as well.
I'd like to see the style refined slightly, not so much a plan B thats completely differently to plan A, but definitely a tweak to the system when we play teams that are just going to sit deep and not let us press. There were signs of this against Derby in the 2nd half but it's definitely the most pressing issue we need to address at the moment. Personally I'm more of a fan of 3 made up from Robinson/Phillips/Diangana/Grant, not so much because I think Hugill is awful but because I think as a consequence it naturally forces us to play a little bit more football and is more difficult for defences to set up against than Hugill plus 2 wide forwards.
However 8 games in and we're unbeaten (one of only 2 still unbeaten out of 72 EFL clubs) averaging 2 points a game and level on points with 2nd place.... I'm certainly not too down or panicky just yet
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First game of the season on Friday, which I was so looking forward to but now feeling a bit nervous. It's not the performance of the team I'm concerned about, more so the performance of the crowd. The place should be rocking and in full support of a manager only eight games into a forty game season and proving very competetive in the league but I'm hearing from all over that things could "turn".
I will be watching an unbalanced squad with key players missing. Big money was wasted by previous regimes leaving this manager to feed on scraps. He has been given a supposed £40 million strike force but all four of those players were completely binned by the last incumbents at different times. No sh*t we need to be better in the final third and he must have expected a lot more quality to come through once he bedded them in.
I might be talking out of my backside and be in complete agreement with the more negative element of the fanbase on Valball by the end of the match but he deserves more time than this surely.
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.......I might be talking out of my backside.........
If you are then don't sweat it chap as you'll fit in very well around this place ;D .
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I don't see many with knives out but If they have thats what the forum is for just as much as those pro Val right now .
I'm concerned to be honest , there needs to be some entertainment on show not set piece goals or working the ball out wide for yet another lofted cross with 12 bodies in the box . Its boring and predictable , yes a lot of these players were involved in the horror of last season but just as much many played with swagger under Bilic until just after Xmas ...some even played decent football later on under Big Sam . Still very early but there needs to be more actual football played which was my worry having seen Barnsley last season .
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You only have to watch the brilliant goals we scored and our general play in th 5-2 demolition of Chelsea to see how we were able to perform last season. In my opinion, Robinson’s goal was the pick of the bunch - fantastic goal of the season with its build-up and finish.
All the squad players shoul be shown those goals before every training session and every fixture.
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You only have to watch the brilliant goals we scored and our general play in th 5-2 demolition of Chelsea to see how we were able to perform last season. In my opinion, Robinson’s goal was the pick of the bunch - fantastic goal of the season with its build-up and finish.
All the squad players shoul be shown those goals before every training session and every fixture.
Let's be honest a world class player tore the European Champions to shreds like no other player did all season.
How he ended up at that club for that transfer fee I'll never ever understand it.
Harry Kane £100m?????
He was sensational in both seasons for WBA. Now we have Mowatt and Livermore. Is it the Managers fault? Not unless he's missing a trick with Muloumby and Castro.
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Let's be honest a world class player tore the European Champions to shreds like no other player did all season.
How he ended up at that club for that transfer fee I'll never ever understand it.
Harry Kane £100m?????
He was sensational in both seasons for WBA. Now we have Mowatt and Livermore. Is it the Managers fault? Not unless he's missing a trick with Muloumby and Castro.
It's been gone over many times but the European Champions or anyone similar weren't in the slightest bit interested in signing him.
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For me things took a turn with his selection against Arsenal. That was outrageous and it’s been extremely poor ever since. To be found out so soon into the season and to (so far) be unable to adapt is ringing serious alarm bells for me. Very early days of course but it needs to be sorted rapidly and hoof ball is not paying off in recent game. Our form is on a downward trend and needs to be corrected.
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It's been gone over many times but the European Champions or anyone similar weren't in the slightest bit interested in signing him.
Very true. If we look at the European Champions in isolation, last season Pereira outperformed all of Havertz, Ziyech, Mount, Pulisic, Werner etc. It's a total mystery why he was overlooked by the top clubs with that performance level!
Back to the present, just losing Pereira from the last Championship campaign means we are weaker offensively. But Mowatt is better than Sawyers defensively, which should mean less goals conceded.
I just don't see how we can be as entertaining as the Bilic team in the Championship, due to the squad available. The only player who could possibly change it is Castro?
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Very true. If we look at the European Champions in isolation, last season Pereira outperformed all of Havertz, Ziyech, Mount, Pulisic, Werner etc. It's a total mystery why he was overlooked by the top clubs with that performance level!
Back to the present, just losing Pereira from the last Championship campaign means we are weaker offensively. But Mowatt is better than Sawyers defensively, which should mean less goals conceded.
I just don't see how we can be as entertaining as the Bilic team in the Championship, due to the squad available. The only player who could possibly change it is Castro?
Might have been he was demanding wage parity with the Saudi offer
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I cant work out what some of our fans want? We are still unbeaten, we are 3rd in the League, only 3 teams have scored more goals than us, only 2 teams have conceded less than us and yet some fans cant stop moaning.
If after 28 games we are 23rd in the league, and 23 more teams have scored more than us, and 22 have conceded less than us then start to moan and I will be with you, but to start moaning after only 8 games is beyond me. :o
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If you are then don't sweat it chap as you'll fit in very well around this place ;D .
Ha, ha ‘many a true word spoken in jest’ Dan!
I went to Deepdale on Saturday and I am beginning to believe that after over 60years of watching the baggies - like Socrates ‘ I know nothing’
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I cant work out what some of our fans want? We are still unbeaten, we are 3rd in the League, only 3 teams have scored more goals than us, only 2 teams have conceded less than us and yet some fans cant stop moaning.
If after 28 games we are 23rd in the league, and 23 more teams have scored more than us, and 22 have conceded less than us then start to moan and I will be with you, but to start moaning after only 8 games is beyond me. :o
That's the Social Media brigade for you mate!
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Very true. If we look at the European Champions in isolation, last season Pereira outperformed all of Havertz, Ziyech, Mount, Pulisic, Werner etc. It's a total mystery why he was overlooked by the top clubs with that performance level!
Back to the present, just losing Pereira from the last Championship campaign means we are weaker offensively. But Mowatt is better than Sawyers defensively, which should mean less goals conceded.
I just don't see how we can be as entertaining as the Bilic team in the Championship, due to the squad available. The only player who could possibly change it is Castro?
Maybe he has a reputation within the game for being disruptive if he doesn't get his way?
Anyway back to Ismael. He seems as frustrated by the recent performances as anyone. He is without 2 of his key defenders and has chopped and changed the line ups to try and sort things out and get back to the type of performances we saw at the start of the season.
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There was a point raised on the Liquidator podcast which i hadn't considered.
Valball at barnsley was largely played without fans present, as such its likely the aesthetic value being diminished was largely irrelevant and not a measure of success.
Fast forward to the Albion, expectant fans back in grounds, wanting entertaining, a percentage of baggies hankering for "the Albion way", Val now has to deliver results first and foremost, but if not delivering results and failing to entertain could be on a hiding.
Different circumstances / different deliverables.
thoughts?
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Maybe he has a reputation within the game for being disruptive if he doesn't get his way?
Plenty of players down the years have proven difficulty to manage. If you have a good manager it can be done, SAF with Cantona / Redknapp with Di Canio. Koumas was difficult, no doubt.
Back to original topic, this squad is not as naturally gifted offensively as some before. You can talk about formations / tactics all day long but we aren't going to score hatfuls of goals with this team. We need to grind it out.
Best if we just get behind the Manager and Team.
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I cant work out what some of our fans want? We are still unbeaten, we are 3rd in the League, only 3 teams have scored more goals than us, only 2 teams have conceded less than us and yet some fans cant stop moaning.
If after 28 games we are 23rd in the league, and 23 more teams have scored more than us, and 22 have conceded less than us then start to moan and I will be with you, but to start moaning after only 8 games is beyond me. :o
By then promotion is gone. What people are concerned about is the obvious with our tactics. It's clear to anyone that teams have a way of stopping us from playing and we don't appear to have any other option.
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By then promotion is gone. What people are concerned about is the obvious with our tactics. It's clear to anyone that teams have a way of stopping us from playing and we don't appear to have any other option.
I agree that teams may have found a way of stifling us , but, no team has managed to find a way of beating us yet.
We missed a penalty against Millwall, hammered Derby second half and Preston's goal was a flukey deflection. Yes we were poor, in comparison to earlier games and yes, these teams clearly had a plan to spoil, but none of them ever really threatened to get 3 points. Remember, this approach will not suit every team the way it did Millwall and Preston (Derby didn't do it particularly well, they just got very lucky), so it's not as simple as saying we've been "found out", so our opponents still have to have the quality and ability to go down the spoiler route.
If we can cut out the silly mistakes at the back, which getting Clarke back and Bryan bedded in should surely help, and improve our transition through midfield, I have no doubt we will see these draws turned into wins.
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I agree that teams may have found a way of stifling us , but, no team has managed to find a way of beating us yet.
We missed a penalty against Millwall, hammered Derby second half and Preston's goal was a flukey deflection. Yes we were poor, in comparison to earlier games and yes, these teams clearly had a plan to spoil, but none of them ever really threatened to get 3 points. Remember, this approach will not suit every team the way it did Millwall and Preston (Derby didn't do it particularly well, they just got very lucky), so it's not as simple as saying we've been "found out", so our opponents still have to have the quality and ability to go down the spoiler route.
If we can cut out the silly mistakes at the back, which getting Clarke back and Bryan bedded in should surely help, and improve our transition through midfield, I have no doubt we will see these draws turned into wins.
very good points, well made.
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I agree that teams may have found a way of stifling us , but, no team has managed to find a way of beating us yet.
We missed a penalty against Millwall, hammered Derby second half and Preston's goal was a flukey deflection. Yes we were poor, in comparison to earlier games and yes, these teams clearly had a plan to spoil, but none of them ever really threatened to get 3 points. Remember, this approach will not suit every team the way it did Millwall and Preston (Derby didn't do it particularly well, they just got very lucky), so it's not as simple as saying we've been "found out", so our opponents still have to have the quality and ability to go down the spoiler route.
If we can cut out the silly mistakes at the back, which getting Clarke back and Bryan bedded in should surely help, and improve our transition through midfield, I have no doubt we will see these draws turned into wins.
Excellent post
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I agree that teams may have found a way of stifling us , but, no team has managed to find a way of beating us yet.
We missed a penalty against Millwall, hammered Derby second half and Preston's goal was a flukey deflection. Yes we were poor, in comparison to earlier games and yes, these teams clearly had a plan to spoil, but none of them ever really threatened to get 3 points. Remember, this approach will not suit every team the way it did Millwall and Preston (Derby didn't do it particularly well, they just got very lucky), so it's not as simple as saying we've been "found out", so our opponents still have to have the quality and ability to go down the spoiler route.
If we can cut out the silly mistakes at the back, which getting Clarke back and Bryan bedded in should surely help, and improve our transition through midfield, I have no doubt we will see these draws turned into wins.
You don't get promoted by drawing games.
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You don't get promoted by drawing games.
You do get promoted averaging two points a game though?
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Just because we’re unbeaten doesn’t mean we’re not able to criticise where it’s warranted.
There are some legitimate concerns that have appeared within the last four games - against those sides with some of the lowest budgets in this division.
We should not be overlooking those concerns because we’re unbeaten ::)
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It's been gone over many times but the European Champions or anyone similar weren't in the slightest bit interested in signing him.
and our board weren't the least bit interested in keeping him! Negligence.
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Just because we’re unbeaten doesn’t mean we’re not able to criticise where it’s warranted.
Of course. As long as it is constructive and in some way reasonably balanced.
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Can’t believe I’m hearing any negativity at this stage of the season.
With what these owners have done, we are dead ringers on paper for a drop to League One.
Yet 3 games in we were being compared to Leeds for our press, aggression, and energy.
Our youth team being spanked in a pointless EFL cup game shouldn’t worry anyone as it’s literally just a drain on our resource, and then we’ve had a couple of games where the opposition have sat in and frustrated us, which is where we will need to adapt.
That said- this manager is working with a non-ideal squad. We know that injuries would hurt this paper thin team and we’ve already seen it. If he can keep us competitive, he deserves backing in Jan to fire us to the big money league again when hopefully these clowns can sell up and let us move on from a sorry chapter of ownership.
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You do get promoted averaging two points a game though?
True, if we'd started the season the other way around, and gone from 3 disappointing performances to getting wins and showing improvement then yeah, '2 pts a game would be valid'.
If, as some fans are concerned, the opposition have found a way to nullify us and we don't start to put a plan B together, then we won't be averaging 2 pts a game. That's the worry.
Classifying draws against teams like Derby and Millwall as some sort of success, because we remain unbeaten is crazy.
We can either react to the latest performances and say "we need to do better" or we can say "who cares? We're unbeaten". Which do we think Val is doing?
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Of course. As long as it is constructive and in some way reasonably balanced.
I've not seen anything that isn't. People are pointing out the clear issues that we can see.
Your criticism of Livermore doesn't seem constructive or particularly balanced mind. :D
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It will be interesting to see what the reaction is when the 'unbeaten' argument is laid to rest, and I suspect it may be tomorrow night.
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I've not seen anything that isn't. People are pointing out the clear issues that we can see.
Your criticism of Livermore doesn't seem constructive or particularly balanced mind. :D
And nobody is denying the issues, but it's no different to you ignoring the first four games.
I've not seen a single post that says we should just carry on as we are, it's just that some can be "balanced" and look at the season so far, as a whole, and recognise the positives, whilst others take the last 4 games and focus entirely on that to promote doom and gloom.
As for Livermore, suggesting an alternative, to address some of the issues that you are so keen to point out, seems very constructive to me. :D
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It will be interesting to see what the reaction is when the 'unbeaten' argument is laid to rest, and I suspect it may be tomorrow night.
What makes you suspect that?
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What makes you suspect that?
Despite our 'unbeaten' record I have no real confidence in the team Seteefeet. We started well and quickly dissolved into a kick and rush Sunday league side. Not pretty to watch and not that effective. Hailing draws against Millwall and Derby baffles me, if we are going to get out of this league we should be beating them comfortably. QPR are no mugs and I just have this feeling that it will not go well for us tomorrow.
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Despite our 'unbeaten' record I have no real confidence in the team Seteefeet. We started well and quickly dissolved into a kick and rush Sunday league side. Not pretty to watch and not that effective. Hailing draws against Millwall and Derby baffles me, if we are going to get out of this league we should be beating them comfortably. QPR are no mugs and I just have this feeling that it will not go well for us tomorrow.
Is anyone/the majority hailing draws against those sides as great results in isolation though? I think it's more a case of looking at those results alongside our others and judging them as a whole.
So far in 4 games we've been between good and excellent and taken 10 points, winning 3 of the games at a canter. In 4 other games we've been between poor and average, still taken 6 points, could have still easily won the other 3 and at no point have we ever looked like losing any of them.
Of course we're going to lose games this season, but generally speaking so far even when playing badly we look like taking a point at worse. It's all very well saying Valball has been found out, but even if you want to judge us on just the last 4 games, then it seems to me the only way it's been found out is if the other team pretty much sacrifice any chance they have of winning the game and solely try to contain us. On that basis I'd still back us to go up if we play another 38 games where no side tries to actively beat us in the majority of those games.
None of the above means Ismael or the team are without criticism, and of course theres a few valid concerns that have come up from the last 4 games that need to be discussed. Unfortunately they can tend to get lost or lumped in with some of the more hyperbolic statements that appear on here on the same subject.
Anyone expecting us to turn up week in week out and roll these teams over is dreaming, no matter how good the players or manager are thats never going to happen in this league. Booing the side off after an away draw against a solid mid table side who have set out solely to get a point against us smacks of entitlement and of delusion/a lack of understanding in my opinion.
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Despite our 'unbeaten' record I have no real confidence in the team Seteefeet. We started well and quickly dissolved into a kick and rush Sunday league side. Not pretty to watch and not that effective. Hailing draws against Millwall and Derby baffles me, if we are going to get out of this league we should be beating them comfortably. QPR are no mugs and I just have this feeling that it will not go well for us tomorrow.
Fair enough the last three draws have been disappointing but, "no mugs" QPR have drawn 1 and lost 2 of their last 3.
Not saying we will win, but, even based on recent form, we will rightly be clear favourites.
It's easy to look at our recent form, in isolation, and see only negatives, but, if you look at the form of the rest of the league it is far more erratic.
Some are even going as far as saying we won't even make the play offs, well, if we don't, who will? I can't look at the table and envisage 6 teams that will finish above us (neither can the bookies who have us at 1/5 to make the play offs), so there does appear to be an unrealistic level of hysteria going on in certain quarters, based on 3 games, none of which we have even looked like losing.
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Not sure we should be ok with 3 draws and needing a stoppage time goal to beat Peterbrough because we hope the rest of the division will be poorer than us.
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A goal in anytime is good mate.
I think we'll beat QPR 2-1
Val is not stupid he will know what's required he is not afraid to change players or sub them anytime and I applaud that
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Not sure we should be ok with 3 draws and needing a stoppage time goal to beat Peterbrough because we hope the rest of the division will be poorer than us.
We've played 8 though, not 4 and, so far, the rest of the division, bar one, are worse than us.
I am pretty sure if Fulham score a stoppage time winner this weekend it will be "good teams find a way to win" whereas, when it's us it's an indicator that we are rubbish and destined for mid-table :D :D
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Not sure we should be ok with 3 draws and needing a stoppage time goal to beat Peterbrough because we hope the rest of the division will be poorer than us.
We're you happy with 10 points from the first 4 games? I can only assume from your disappointment you literally expect us to win every game we play this season? We're getting extremely picky if we're complaining about the minute we score winning goals in...
At the moment we're not hoping the league is poorer than us (I have to say I don't really understand the comment). We've adopted a style that in the first 4 games teams couldn't cope with and were getting blown away. As a result they have now set up solely to counter that and in the last 4 games they have had a degree of success in doing so. However, in order to combat what we are doing, they have to sacrifice pretty much any chance they have of winning the game themselves.
Over the course of a season if a team plays 46 games and in maybe a dozen or so of them the opposition actually try to win the game, then chances are that side will have a pretty decent chance of going up in May.
Assuming for a minute that the style we saw in the first 4 games has been found out (and thats a huge assumption on the back of 4 games but I'll go with it for now) then the crucial part will be what comes next. Either we find a way to win games against teams that set up for a point, or the teams that are setting up for a point have to find a way to win against us whilst continuing to be as strong defensively.
Generally speaking I'd back us to find a way to win those games first, mainly because as it stands we've been a lot closer to winning all those games then we have been to losing them. We're also very strong at set pieces which become more important in tighter games as we've seen recently.
The style may not be to everyones taste and thats fine, but I think even those who don't like it would concede thats it's a positive and proactive style, in terms of we set out to impose ourselves and our game plan on the opposition. If we were drawing these games because we weren't trying to win them I'd be far more concerned that I am now.
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Seeing as we have been written off based on only taking 6 points from the last 4 games, and assuming that the same applies to the Fulham Globetrotters, who have done exactly the same, the final top 2 should be interesting.
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Seeing as we have been written off based on only taking 6 points from the last 4 games, and assuming that the same applies to the Fulham Globetrotters, who have done exactly the same, the final top 2 should be interesting.
Nobody has written us off. Some are saying that we need to come up with a plan B.
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We're you happy with 10 points from the first 4 games? I can only assume from your disappointment you literally expect us to win every game we play this season? We're getting extremely picky if we're complaining about the minute we score winning goals in...
At the moment we're not hoping the league is poorer than us (I have to say I don't really understand the comment). We've adopted a style that in the first 4 games teams couldn't cope with and were getting blown away. As a result they have now set up solely to counter that and in the last 4 games they have had a degree of success in doing so. However, in order to combat what we are doing, they have to sacrifice pretty much any chance they have of winning the game themselves.
Over the course of a season if a team plays 46 games and in maybe a dozen or so of them the opposition actually try to win the game, then chances are that side will have a pretty decent chance of going up in May.
Assuming for a minute that the style we saw in the first 4 games has been found out (and thats a huge assumption on the back of 4 games but I'll go with it for now) then the crucial part will be what comes next. Either we find a way to win games against teams that set up for a point, or the teams that are setting up for a point have to find a way to win against us whilst continuing to be as strong defensively.
Generally speaking I'd back us to find a way to win those games first, mainly because as it stands we've been a lot closer to winning all those games then we have been to losing them. We're also very strong at set pieces which become more important in tighter games as we've seen recently.
The style may not be to everyones taste and thats fine, but I think even those who don't like it would concede thats it's a positive and proactive style, in terms of we set out to impose ourselves and our game plan on the opposition. If we were drawing these games because we weren't trying to win them I'd be far more concerned that I am now.
Of course, the first 4 games showed that our tactics were different and working. The switch has been when teams have decided to not let us have our own way and instead of playing out from the back, allowing us to press, they've chosen to smash it long and get rid. It puts our (shakey) back line at risk and stops our main approach to games from working. Let's be generous and ignore the win against Peterbrough, that's still 3 games against midtable teams where we've struggled because of that. It seems pretty obvious from watching all the games why we've struggled lately compared to earlier games.
Now, you say the other team has given up hope of winning but to that I'd say, we've still conceded, we've got a back line with Ajayi and Bartley in it, and even if it means the opposition take a point, a point a game won't get us promoted. The fact that neither team looks like winning it isn't a plus point.
So to that end we need to start turning the draws into wins - which is where we agree. To do that, we need to have another option so yeah, it's going to be interesting going forward. I don't see anyone completely writing us off
I don't think people are writing us off as we have a team who can play to a plan B, we just need the manager to push that through. There was glimpses of it against Derby but if we carry on sticking to plan A and not deviating from it then wins are going to be hard to come by.
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We're you happy with 10 points from the first 4 games? I can only assume from your disappointment you literally expect us to win every game we play this season? We're getting extremely picky if we're complaining about the minute we score winning goals in...
At the moment we're not hoping the league is poorer than us (I have to say I don't really understand the comment). We've adopted a style that in the first 4 games teams couldn't cope with and were getting blown away. As a result they have now set up solely to counter that and in the last 4 games they have had a degree of success in doing so. However, in order to combat what we are doing, they have to sacrifice pretty much any chance they have of winning the game themselves.
Over the course of a season if a team plays 46 games and in maybe a dozen or so of them the opposition actually try to win the game, then chances are that side will have a pretty decent chance of going up in May.
Assuming for a minute that the style we saw in the first 4 games has been found out (and thats a huge assumption on the back of 4 games but I'll go with it for now) then the crucial part will be what comes next. Either we find a way to win games against teams that set up for a point, or the teams that are setting up for a point have to find a way to win against us whilst continuing to be as strong defensively.
Generally speaking I'd back us to find a way to win those games first, mainly because as it stands we've been a lot closer to winning all those games then we have been to losing them. We're also very strong at set pieces which become more important in tighter games as we've seen recently.
The style may not be to everyones taste and thats fine, but I think even those who don't like it would concede thats it's a positive and proactive style, in terms of we set out to impose ourselves and our game plan on the opposition. If we were drawing these games because we weren't trying to win them I'd be far more concerned that I am now.
The second of two excellent posts. This division has never been an easy one. We all know that, in terms of quality, it is well below premier league standards. The level of competitiveness in the division however is very strong. VI has gone on record to say that we need 'a few' transfer windows to enable the club to get the players he would like and so far he has had one only. Some of the playing style in recent games has concerned me but I have seen enough to be convinced that this guy will do what has been asked of him. Just seeing our players at least as fit as the opposition has been a positive that we have not had for a while.
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If you read Val's last few interviews, he certainly does not come across as complacent. He probably would share some of the points being made on here. In fact he spelled out quite clearly that we need to work on our finishing and how we improve in the final third.
Clearly he has a basic tactical philosophy which he is not going to change, but I think he is the first to admit it needs to be tweaked to adapt to opponents.
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The image below from training this week, tweeted by the official website today, doesn't suggest that Valerien has adopted a "keep going as you are lads" approach.
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The image below from training this week, tweeted by the official website today, doesn't suggest that Valerien has adopted a "keep going as you are lads" approach.
Who is it they are looking at? Themselves? I can't tell. Hard to read anything into that picture.
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Val has taken over a side that has played negative defensive football for 3 years + now, implemented a totally new style and hasn’t lost a game.(Bilic first few months were the exception).
I always thought the first dozen games would be hit and miss until his methods get ingrained into the players. I’m very confident that we will shortly be a quality side.
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I'm having a Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower moment. I genuinely hadn't realised Albion had been defensive and negative for 3 + years prior to Val's appointment. Thank the Lord I don't go to games 'entirely' sober. Must be a very chastened experience for those who do.
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Seeing as we have been written off based on only taking 6 points from the last 4 games, and assuming that the same applies to the Fulham Globetrotters, who have done exactly the same, the final top 2 should be interesting.
I have not written us off at all. I have concerns about our style of play at present, and in the event we do manage to get promoted then I have real concerns about this style in the Premier and the lack of investment by our current board, where the manager will once again be asked to perform miracles with championship players and bargain basement additions.
I am also hoping that we 'click' and we start to see some reward for all of the possession and shots on target. Written off - no.
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Who is it they are looking at? Themselves? I can't tell. Hard to read anything into that picture.
Think they are watching Escape to Victory.
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I'm having a Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower moment. I genuinely hadn't realised Albion had been defensive and negative for 3 + years prior to Val's appointment. Thank the Lord I don't go to games 'entirely' sober. Must be a very chastened experience for those who do.
You are right. I forgot how exciting Pulis, Pardew and Allardyce football was where we had far more possession than our opponents and spent most of the game camped in their half.
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You are right. I forgot how exciting Pulis, Pardew and Allardyce football was where we had far more possession than our opponents and spent most of the game camped in their half.
Yes, me too! Only the half a season under Bilic has been the exception (as the original poster stated)
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It's interesting he mentions keeping the ball in play in todays interviews. One thing i have noticed is that our centre halves have been heading the ball out of play a lot under zero pressure.
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... It puts our (shakey) back line at risk and stops our main approach to games from working.
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Now, you say the other team has given up hope of winning but to that I'd say, we've still conceded, we've got a back line with Ajayi and Bartley in it, and even if it means the opposition take a point, a point a game won't get us promoted. ....
So this thread is about Valerien Ishmael. The points you make about the central defenders are not of his making. I think with the current squad to get a top six place would be a good result. He does need a plan B but whether the squad can execute that is a moot point. We cannot buy ourselves to promotion and may have to let him build something over two or three seasons. Certainly the academy is not producing the goods and can't find a way to retain the better players. I think we need to let Val and his new team try and turn the oil tanker around.
Fulham and Sheffield Utd who have spent far more than us have had some variable results.
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You are right. I forgot how exciting Pulis, Pardew and Allardyce football was where we had far more possession than our opponents and spent most of the game camped in their half.
OK, we'll conveniently forget what came between along with any with any other moments. Fine and dandy.
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Yes, me too! Only the half a season under Bilic has been the exception (as the original poster stated)
I agree, no goals or entertainment whatsoever when Harvey Barnes, Jay Rodriguez or dare I say it Dwight Gayle were in situ. No need to hanker and whine for players gone by any more then. Chuffed.
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Think they are watching Escape to Victory.
If it gets them a victory let them watch anything they want.
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You are right. I forgot how exciting Pulis, Pardew and Allardyce football was where we had far more possession than our opponents and spent most of the game camped in their half.
Pardew was plus 3 years ago. Dan is quite right. We were kamikaze under Moore and expansive under Bilić. We certainly weren't defensive last season either conceding a league high 76 goals.
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It's interesting he mentions keeping the ball in play in todays interviews. One thing i have noticed is that our centre halves have been heading the ball out of play a lot under zero pressure.
I mentioned this before. Bartley and Ajayi have 50p heads, the ball goes anywhere when they head it. The way we play it needs to be headed into areas where we can compete and win second balls.
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I mentioned this before. Bartley and Ajayi have 50p heads, the ball goes anywhere when they head it. The way we play it needs to be headed into areas where we can compete and win second balls.
Yup Ismael was beside himself 2nd half against Derby everytime the ball went out of play.
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This is an issue of expectation, if you expect us to get out of this division at the first time of asking then we need to improve quickly. A bonus would be to see attractive football not just an aerial bombardment. A bigger bonus would be to feel like we have a plan to stay up if we get promoted.
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Always like to read others views but can't my head around comparing the Premier League where we pretty much can't compete and have to play defensive to a respected but much weaker 2nd tier this time where we should be a threat most games and on the front foot( not looking down at this division either ) .
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Interesting away stats for QPR they have had the bulk of the possession in their games against Reading, Bournemouth, Hull and Middlesbrough scoring on average 2+ away goals a game. They also concede plenty.
Judging by the away stats so far, they ain’t going to sit back or park the bus .
They will go for it ‘ if you score 3 we’all score 4 !! I guess they will play a high line ?
With that in mind - will Val play Diangana, Robinson and Grant.
I have to say, I think he will. Interesting.........QPR look ‘made to measure’
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Valball might be effective in Prem with our players being inferior but to get their the coach needs to adapt his approach because our last 4 performances isn’t cutting it.
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Valball might be effective in Prem with our players being inferior but to get their the coach needs to adapt his approach because our last 4 performances isn’t cutting it.
This team and tactics would get slaughtered in the Prem.
This is my biggest fear. We get promoted and we end up saying the same thing we've been saying for the last 5 years that 'this team needs a massive overhaul'
We know with this owner that isn't going to happen.
Best we can hope for is to Yo-Yo until we get a benefactor
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I agree, no goals or entertainment whatsoever when Harvey Barnes, Jay Rodriguez or dare I say it Dwight Gayle were in situ. No need to hanker and whine for players gone by any more then. Chuffed.
I have to say that you got me there. I completely overlooked what was a very enjoyable spell with those 3 up top. An age thing on my part! Thanks for the ever reliable sarcastic response, you are 100 per cent correct.
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Pardew was plus 3 years ago. Dan is quite right. We were kamikaze under Moore and expansive under Bilić. We certainly weren't defensive last season either conceding a league high 76 goals.
We were incredibly defensive last season, we were just awful at it.
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This team and tactics would get slaughtered in the Prem.
This is my biggest fear. We get promoted and we end up saying the same thing we've been saying for the last 5 years that 'this team needs a massive overhaul'
We know with this owner that isn't going to happen.
Best we can hope for is to Yo-Yo until we get a benefactor
I think this West Brom team is probably the worst team we have had since the Brian Little/ Denis Smith era.
The last few years we have had some shining lights like Pereira then before him Harvey Barnes briefly, Rodriguez and Gayle. But now we seem to be getting worse every season.
This is very worrying because at sometime we have got to stick with a manager and also we have to have some investment from the owner.
The majority of the championship clubs are dependant on the owners support financially. So if our owner is looking at us being a self sufficient club, then the future does not look too good.
I think in time Ismael could do a good job for us but we have to stick with him and he needs financial support from the top.
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This team and tactics would get slaughtered in the Prem.
This is my biggest fear. We get promoted and we end up saying the same thing we've been saying for the last 5 years that 'this team needs a massive overhaul'
We know with this owner that isn't going to happen.
Best we can hope for is to Yo-Yo until we get a benefactor
That's going to be true for most teams though, look at Norwich, lauded by many as the example to follow, yet winless, pointless and 14 conceded after 5, with just 2 scored.
As you say, unless we get a benefactor, yo-yoing is the best we can do. Good thing we are the masters of it. :D
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I think this West Brom team is probably the worst team we have had since the Brian Little/ Denis Smith era.
The last few years we have had some shining lights like Pereira then before him Harvey Barnes briefly, Rodriguez and Gayle. But now we seem to be getting worse every season.
This is very worrying because at sometime we have got to stick with a manager and also we have to have some investment from the owner.
The majority of the championship clubs are dependant on the owners support financially. So if our owner is looking at us being a self sufficient club, then the future does not look too good.
I think in time Ismael could do a good job for us but we have to stick with him and he needs financial support from the top.
I cannot argue that this squad is missing "skill and excitement' the only slight light in that respect is Diangana who is flattering to deceive currently. There is a downward spiral that needs arresting
a) by development of youth and integrating them into the squad and hopefully becoming saleable assets
b) Investment from owner (lol)
c) Clever and profitable acquisition of players with necessary attributes for today and ability to develop for us or a purchaser
Am I confident that any of the above are strengths we can deploy? frankly no.
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I think this West Brom team is probably the worst team we have had since the Brian Little/ Denis Smith era.
In terms of quality you probably aren't as far off as it may initially seem, especially our forwards. Robinson is like a poor man's Rodriguez, may get 10-12 goals, Phillips is probably our next most likely in the goal charts yet he would never have got in upfront in the Barnes, Gayle, Rodriguez era, in fact he was moved to right side of a midfield three. I maintain, for what we need Grant and Diangana are (being polite) not good enough. Hugill is a different "type" and may be beneficial to the system.
Hughes, Roberts would they get in this team? He'll yeah at their peaks.
We are playing a completely different and somewhat unique way, you have to factor that in and Val may make the the collective stronger than the individuals. Let's hope he does.
Fact remains though that our recruitment the last few years has been shambolic. That's not knocking Ken or Val during the last pre season they've been left in a very difficult position.
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We need proper talented footballers, not more hoof-ball merchants....sick of it. We only got into the prem last around because of Pereira, the only times we looked any good in the prem was because of Pereira.... but he needed players around him with the same speed of thought. We denied him that. We came down, we gave him away. And now, without investing in creative midfielders and a genuine striker we're heading for mid-table 2nd Division obscurity just as other illustrious teams have done before us.
I think the next few games will give us a better idea of our future, get Mowatt and Livermore further forward during attacks, give some of our ambitious youngsters a chance if games aren't going well....I'm not optimistic, but I'll support the Baggies til the day I die come what may.
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In terms of quality you probably aren't as far off as it may initially seem, especially our forwards. Robinson is like a poor man's Rodriguez, may get 10-12 goals, Phillips is probably our next most likely in the goal charts yet he would never have got in upfront in the Barnes, Gayle, Rodriguez era, in fact he was moved to right side of a midfield three. I maintain, for what we need Grant and Diangana are (being polite) not good enough. Hugill is a different "type" and may be beneficial to the system.
Hughes, Roberts would they get in this team? He'll yeah at their peaks.
We are playing a completely different and somewhat unique way, you have to factor that in and Val may make the the collective stronger than the individuals. Let's hope he does.
Fact remains though that our recruitment the last few years has been shambolic. That's not knocking Ken or Val during the last pre season they've been left in a very difficult position.
Yep, our recent recruitment in forward areas has been pretty disastrous, particulary Zohore's continued presence, although still time for Grady and Grant to come good.
However he transfers of our main rivals show how difficult it can be to find good attacking players from the "B" list of options. Don't forget an injury to Pulkki last year for Norwich would have left Hugill as the main striker.
Sheff Utd have been playing Billy Sharp ahead of Mcburnie and Brewster who also came in at a combined £40m (not even mentioning Burke).
Bournemouth reportedly spent around £20 m on Solanke and he is only really now showing a return after 4 in 42 in the PL. They also spent £12m on Brooks who now seems to have been replaced by Christie as first pick.
Fulham havnt had to play the strikers game as much due to Mitrovich liking London life enough not to move club but you would have to question if Bobby Decordova-Reid has shown value for the £10m plus paid out.
I'm pretty sure that Val will still be hoping for Dike in his Christmas stocking but if he is valued at £18m that won't happen, we can only hope on some convoluted loan agreement but it just seems unlikely. Who else is out there, and available, that will prove a better option than those we allready have (be realistic, Diagne was never dropping down)? That recent transfer business shows how difficult it can be and why the club is hoping Val can get more out of the collective.
Ps is it ridiculous to still want Gayle to have another 6 months after hes punched Jones? Would he be a fit for Val?
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only chance we get Dike is his relationship with VI, VI's team & Mowatt.
We are not fishing in same pond as Norwich / et al anymore, if, Dike is what he is purported to be, he will attract better offers than us for the reasons above, scarce commodity with plenty of buyers. Out of our market i feel.
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We need proper talented footballers, not more hoof-ball merchants....sick of it. We only got into the prem last around because of Pereira, the only times we looked any good in the prem was because of Pereira.... but he needed players around him with the same speed of thought. We denied him that. We came down, we gave him away. And now, without investing in creative midfielders and a genuine striker we're heading for mid-table 2nd Division obscurity just as other illustrious teams have done before us.
I think the next few games will give us a better idea of our future, get Mowatt and Livermore further forward during attacks, give some of our ambitious youngsters a chance if games aren't going well....I'm not optimistic, but I'll support the Baggies til the day I die come what may.
I see no evidence of this.
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I see no evidence of this.
We'll see. Continuing to draw with clubs like Millwall, Derby & Preston equals mid-table obscurity IMO.
As I said, the next few matches will be very telling on how things are going....but I sincerely hope my pessimism is misjudged!
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I see no evidence of this.
I'm assuming this is 2nd div obscurity as in the championship obscurity. Not League 2
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We'll see. Continuing to draw with clubs like Millwall, Derby & Preston equals mid-table obscurity IMO.
As I said, the next few matches will be very telling on how things are going....but I sincerely hope my pessimism is misjudged!
What about drawing away to Bournemouth and crushing Sheff Utd and Luton?
I think it's fine to have concerns following the last 3 games, but, this level of pessimism is, indeed, misjudged. Hopefully a win tonight will restore your faith. 8)
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We'll see. Continuing to draw with clubs like Millwall, Derby & Preston equals mid-table obscurity IMO.
As I said, the next few matches will be very telling on how things are going....but I sincerely hope my pessimism is misjudged!
Genuinely not having a pop and as Seteefeet has just mentioned I understand your concerns.
However, last season's Champions Norwich drew home and away with Preston and Millwall. And while able to overcome Derby County 1-0 at home they fell on their sword with a 1-0 defeat in the reverse fixture.
As Greavsie would have said 'it's a funny old game' and it's going to be a long old season too. Here's hoping our draws with Preston, Millwall and Derby serve as good omens moving forward as we all want what's best for the Albion.
COYB 8) .
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Genuinely not having a pop and as Seteefeet has just mentioned I understand your concerns.
However, last season's Champions Norwich drew home and away with Preston and Millwall. And while able to overcome Derby County 1-0 at home they fell on their sword with a 1-0 defeat in the reverse fixture.
As Greavsie would have said 'it's a funny old game' and it's going to be a long old season too. Here's hoping our draws with Preston, Millwall and Derby serve as good omens moving forward as we all want what's best for the Albion.
COYB 8) .
Mate that is the absolute stat of the week. Bravo. 8)
If anyone needed a nerve settler before tonight's game that is it.
Don't tell anyone but they drew 1-1 with QPR at home. :'(
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I'm assuming this is 2nd div obscurity as in the championship obscurity. Not League 2
Call me old fashioned....I still refer to the Championship as Division 2....because that's exactly what it is. Who the hell came up with the name Championship?!! :o
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.....Don't tell anyone but they drew 1-1 with QPR at home. :'(
Shhhhh, I didn't mention QPR for a reason......... ;D .
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Shhhhh, I didn't mention QPR for a reason......... ;D .
That's why I only told you! ;)
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That's why I only told you! ;)
Nice one, I think it's best we keep QPR a secret ;) .
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Nice one, I think it's best we keep QPR a secret ;) .
Get a room FFS ! preferably with the curtains drawn.
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What about drawing away to Bournemouth and crushing Sheff Utd and Luton?
I think it's fine to have concerns following the last 3 games, but, this level of pessimism is, indeed, misjudged. Hopefully a win tonight will restore your faith. 8)
We played a Bournemouth team who had half their players missing. Sheffield United are now a totally different side to the one we played and 3-2 against Luton is not a crushing especially as Luton will struggle to make mid table a bit like Derby. Preston, Peterborough and Millwall. Luton also gifted us a couple of goals.
The best result we have had this season is the win at Blackburn.
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We played a Bournemouth team who had half their players missing. Sheffield United are now a totally different side to the one we played and 3-2 against Luton is not a crushing especially as Luton will struggle to make mid table a bit like Derby. Preston, Peterborough and Millwall. Luton also gifted us a couple of goals.
The best result we have had this season is the win at Blackburn.
Lucky we ay bottom o the league bay we mate!
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Lucky we ay bottom o the league bay we mate!
just nice to see a bit of realism in the debate !!!
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Lucky we ay bottom o the league bay we mate!
By some of the comments on here i thought we were!!
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Picking the likes of Livermore and Grant will get the Manager the sack.
Time after time certain players give us zilch.
Personally i'd pay up Livermore in January and free him. Likewise I'd make a financial arrangement to get Grant back to Huddersfield.
No team has outplayed us / been better technically but we cannot score for toffee.
Wake up.Ismael.
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Picking the likes of Livermore and Grant will get the Manager the sack.
Time after time certain players give us zilch.
Personally i'd pay up Livermore in January and free him. Likewise I'd make a financial arrangement to get Grant back to Huddersfield.
No team has outplayed us / been better technically but we cannot score for toffee.
Wake up.Ismael.
Love a premature rant!!
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A win is a win
My prediction was correct for once
Sounded like our pressure cracked them to me
But a quality move won us the game
9 unbeaten 19 points impressive to me might not be great watch but top is pdg
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Didn’t think we would score tonight if I’m honest but an error from their keeper was welcomed.Again the performance had a lot to be desired but quality move for winner with lovely back heal by Hugil which shows we can play football.
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Picking the likes of Livermore and Grant will get the Manager the sack.
Time after time certain players give us zilch.
Personally i'd pay up Livermore in January and free him. Likewise I'd make a financial arrangement to get Grant back to Huddersfield.
No team has outplayed us / been better technically but we cannot score for toffee.
Wake up.Ismael.
Your taxi and coat await you sir.
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Val needed that win tonight.
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Val needed that win tonight.
especially after taking off Grady and not Grant
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Massive for Val. It was better football but still miles away. Far from convinced but pleased we won and hoping the result gives Grant the confidence he needs.
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Well he definitely hasn’t got a plan B and this result will probably rubber stamp his belief in his system, tactics and substitutions. Football is a lot to be desired but he got the result so won’t be too harsh.
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Can we put this Plan B shout to bed? There is nothing else. This is the system, we either get behind it or not. Again tonight will gloss over the problems not with the system but with the personnel.
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I keep hearing this plan b stuff - tonight was plan B and we looked much better for it.
Ignoring our obsession with intensity and focusing on control. We look a much better side when we get the ball down and move it into wide areas quickly. None of this lumping it around *****.
Tonight was much better than anything we’ve seen in recent weeks.
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Your taxi and coat await you sir.
I think the equaliser could be a game changer in the season. In truth we never looked like scoring for 77 mins. We must assert our authority quicker in games, can't afford to concede the opening goal to inferior teams.
If you look at it from QPR's side, their game plan has worked to perfection for those 77 mins.
I stick my neck out and say we are not creating enough centrally. Surely Castro has a part to play this season. 0-6 away to a Premier League's reserves is seriously impressive.
Anyway huge for the Manager. Without tonight's turnaround he'd have been under colossal pressure at Cardiff & Stoke.
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especially after taking off Grady and not Grant
Must admit I would have taken off Grant rather than Grady, who was our most dangerous player in the first half. But well done to Grant especially for the second goal, as at long last he got himself into a pocket of space in front of goal, and then was clinical when he needed to be.
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Anyway huge for the Manager. Without tonight's turnaround he'd have been under colossal pressure at Cardiff & Stoke.
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What a bizarre claim to make....where do you get your ideas from? .. I know we are not the best run or stable club in the country but even we don't sack a manager 12 games into a season when in top 5
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I think the equaliser could be a game changer in the season. In truth we never looked like scoring for 77 mins. We must assert our authority quicker in games, can't afford to concede the opening goal to inferior teams.
If you look at it from QPR's side, their game plan has worked to perfection for those 77 mins.
I stick my neck out and say we are not creating enough centrally. Surely Castro has a part to play this season. 0-6 away to a Premier League's reserves is seriously impressive.
Anyway huge for the Manager. Without tonight's turnaround he'd have been under colossal pressure at Cardiff & Stoke.
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Only from impatient fans.....he as a four year deal and is competing at top of the division. He AINT going nowhere soon unless he chooses to.
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He's doing a good job with a fairly limited squad, sometimes our players could look to put their foot on the ball a bit more (particularly when leading) but otherwise he's doing fine. We're second for goals expected, and bottom for expected goals against so statistically we're stacking up right where he'd want us to be, keep us on those trends and we will be promoted.
He has probably the worst attack we've had at this level since who knows when, at least the Megson years and possibly earlier. Not his fault. Does the best he can under those constraints.
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He's doing a good job with a fairly limited squad, sometimes our players could look to put their foot on the ball a bit more (particularly when leading) but otherwise he's doing fine. We're second for goals expected, and bottom for expected goals against so statistically we're stacking up right where he'd want us to be, keep us on those trends and we will be promoted.
He has probably the worst attack we've had at this level since who knows when, at least the Megson years and possibly earlier. Not his fault. Does the best he can under those constraints.
If our attack is so bad why are the tactics "hoof it forward and let the attackers sort it out"?
I'd suggest Diangana, Robbo, Grant, Phillips aren't that bad and a couple of those would get into most teams in this division.
When other teams just launch it forward as well we suffer from the tactics not really being a good fit for the qualities our attack.
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Anyway huge for the Manager. Without tonight's turnaround he'd have been under colossal pressure at Cardiff & Stoke.
What a bizarre claim to make....where do you get your ideas from? .. I know we are not the best run or stable club in the country but even we don't sack a manager 12 games into a season when in top 5
We were headed for a certain 0-1 loss, until a terrible goalkeeping error that make Johnstone's look minor in comparison. We never looked like scoring.
I'm not happy with a couple of things - we don't have a natural goalscorer anywhere in the team / the centre midfield doesn't create anywhere near enough goal scoring chances.
The knives were out for Ismael all across the "in play chat" (so not just me BTW).
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The in play chat is, in my humble view, the very worst place to gauge a situation. People’s views are instant and not, normally, considered.
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The in play chat is, in my humble view, the very worst place to gauge a situation. People’s views are instant and not, normally, considered.
It's a commentary about what happens at the time. In some ways it's more honest. It would be easy to come away from yesterday's game and the emotion of the result and late goal and be all "another win, we're back top, amazing" but for most of that match we weren't very good and failed to create much.
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I thought it was telling - after reading his post-match comments, clearly irked by the fans voicing their displeasure at taking Grady off - that he didn’t appear to walk around with the players and clap the fans, like he usually does.
Although I didn’t boo, I was extremely unhappy with that change - I’ve been critical of Grady this year and even though his final delivery or pass was woeful, he looked our biggest threat out of the front three. Yet, on the outcome of the game, the manager got it right (with a little bit of help from Dieng ;D).
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5 wins and 4 draws in 9 games and top. If I was the manager of a new team, trying to implement a new style, with not a lot of investment and unbeaten and was getting pelters I’d be unhappy too. Oh and he hardly took over a team high on confidence from the end of last season....
So much to say about the modern era of football, entitlement and “myths†of how football should be played etc.
I rate Diangana and he’s playing better. On the flip side when was the last time he scored or even set up a goal?
The twitter thread of Albion fans on line was embarrassing and funny. 25 mins left Grants horrendous, terrible, the worst player we have had at Albionâ€. At full time “always knew he’d come good, class finisher, only finisher we have got†:)
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If our attack is so bad why are the tactics "hoof it forward and let the attackers sort it out"?
I'd suggest Diangana, Robbo, Grant, Phillips aren't that bad and a couple of those would get into most teams in this division.
When other teams just launch it forward as well we suffer from the tactics not really being a good fit for the qualities our attack.
The stats suggest it works, second highest expected goals in the league.
I didn't say the attack was bad just that compared to our previous attacks it is certainly lacking a lot and that's not Ismael's fault. Previously at least 03/04 onwards we've always had good creators at that level, be that Koumas, Gera, Brunt, Dorrans, Pereira.... We don't have anyone in that mould now and neither do we have a natural 20 goal a season striker in the vain of a Kamara, Phillips or Gayle. People should perhaps temper their expectations in light of that.
Ismael has been dealt the toughest hand a manager has been dealt for us since Megson. He's doing a very solid job so far. Can't really see how people expect him to be doing much better.
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For all those thinking we're not creating enough, worrying about our fragile defence, believing Valerien doesn't know what he's doing and/or generally feeling that all involved are rubbish, here are some shot stats for and against from our league games this season:
| Opponents | Shots For | Shots For
On Target | Shots Against | Shots Against
On Target |
| Bournemouth (A) | 15 | 5 | 7 | 4 |
| Luton (H) | 18 | 6 | 11 | 5 |
| Sheff Utd (H) | 12 | 4 | 5 | 1 |
| Blackburn (A) | 23 | 11 | 7 | 2 |
| Peterborough (A) | 19 | 3 | 5 | 1 |
| Millwall (H) | 11 | 2 | 13 | 4 |
| Derby (H) | 25 | 9 | 4 | 0 |
| Preston (A) | 12 | 3 | 8 | 2 |
| QPR (H) | 18 | 5 | 7 | 4 |
| Totals | 153 | 48 | 67 | 23 |
| Average per game | 17 | 5.3 | 7.4 | 2.5 |
Source: www.whoscored.com (https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/175/Fixtures/England-West-Bromwich-Albion)
Valerien has stated that he wants to see our shot accuracy improve, so we'll see how that pans out in the coming weeks.
Perhaps things might not seem quite so awful now, and those who are readily booing at the games might consider being more patient?
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Weren't the fans booing the decision to sub Grady rather than anything else?
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The in play chat is, in my humble view, the very worst place to gauge a situation. People’s views are instant and not, normally, considered.
Completly agree. Too many fans judge a performance, and players, solely on the current scoreline and nothing else. That's how you get 180 degree changes in opinion over the timespan of a few minutes. In any match luck is a factor, but luck tends to even itself over a longer timescale, like a season.
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Weren't the fans booing the decision to sub Grady rather than anything else?
100%, I have no doubt about that. Yet, I'm sure the manager saw it as a reflection on his judgement and decisions; hence his comments in the after-match presser.
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Completly agree. Too many fans judge a performance, and players, solely on the current scoreline and nothing else. That's how you get 180 degree changes in opinion over the timespan of a few minutes. In any match luck is a factor, but luck tends to even itself over a longer timescale, like a season.
I'm sure when fans are at the ground they don't discuss the match or comment on what they're seeing on the pitch.
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I'm sure when fans are at the ground they don't discuss the match or comment on what they're seeing on the pitch.
but much like any other public space, it's usually filled by people who have no idea what they're talking about. It's like a room of antivaxxers sometimes construing real event to suit their narrative.
you just have to remember that fans are morons and have no idea how football works, then you can syphon out the actually useful info from the sea of (usually negative but sometimes happy clapper) dross.
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Weren't the fans booing the decision to sub Grady rather than anything else?
There were also boos at half-time.
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He was definitely upset with the fans at the final whistle, straight down the tunnel without acknowledging the crowd. Probably been building since the boos at the end of the Derby game. He's probably right to get the huff - given we are unbeaten and second. Some of the crowd are too inpatient and too quick to turn.
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I don't think Albion fans are alone in being too quick to criticise I think it's a reflection of society where people are too quick to moan and pass blame , everything is blown out of proportion.
The wife has just told me two women were fighting at a petrol forecourt brainless comes to mind.
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I’m not necessarily condoning the boos but given the amount of money it costs football fans to follow their club, I do understand why they’d feel frustrated if the football being served up is unacceptable.
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I’m not necessarily condoning the boos but given the amount of money it costs football fans to follow their club, I do understand why they’d feel frustrated if the football being served up is unacceptable.
which is fine, so long as they're prepared to accept the look and sound like a petty child while doing it.
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Spot on Hunnington, the minority who boo are entitled to do so and the rest of us are entitled to criticise them for it. Be interesting to see if the press ask Valérien about his reaction at the final whistle.
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which is fine, so long as they're prepared to accept the look and sound like a petty child while doing it.
I doubt they care what they may be perceived as. They’re annoyed aren’t they!
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I’m not necessarily condoning the boos but given the amount of money it costs football fans to follow their club, I do understand why they’d feel frustrated if the football being served up is unacceptable.
It rather comes down to what they regard as being unacceptable then and how reasonable it is for them to feel that way?
Going back to the start of the season, remember that Valerien was talking about wanting the fans and players to combine to make The Hawthorns a fortress and an unpleasant place for opponents to play at. I'm sure he didn't have in mind the team being booed off at half-time and him being booed when making substitutions. It's also pretty likely that he's not experienced it before, as I very much doubt it happened at either LASK or Barnsley. That might explain to some extent why he was clearly miffed about the booing, despite us winning in the end. That we were unbeaten in our first 8 games prior to this one might also have been in his mind.
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It rather comes down to what they regard as being unacceptable then and how reasonable it is for them to feel that way?
Going back to the start of the season, remember that Valerien was talking about wanting the fans and players to combine to make The Hawthorns a fortress and an unpleasant place for opponents to play at. I'm sure he didn't have in mind the team being booed off at half-time and him being booed when making substitutions. It's also pretty likely that he's not experienced it before, as I very much doubt it happened at either LASK or Barnsley. That might explain to some extent why he was clearly miffed about the booing, despite us winning in the end. That we were unbeaten in our first 8 games prior to this one might also have been in his mind.
You summarise the position well. I think VI was right to be annoyed and the fans who booed let themselves down.
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It rather comes down to what they regard as being unacceptable then and how reasonable it is for them to feel that way?
Going back to the start of the season, remember that Valerien was talking about wanting the fans and players to combine to make The Hawthorns a fortress and an unpleasant place for opponents to play at. I'm sure he didn't have in mind the team being booed off at half-time and him being booed when making substitutions. It's also pretty likely that he's not experienced it before, as I very much doubt it happened at either LASK or Barnsley. That might explain to some extent why he was clearly miffed about the booing, despite us winning in the end. That we were unbeaten in our first 8 games prior to this one might also have been in his mind.
That made me chuckle when you quoted Val saying he wanted the Hawthorn’s to be an unpleasant place. I remember him saying that and no I don’t think that was quite what he had in mind either haha 😆
To answer your original point though, I’m guessing it comes down to the standard these fans expect from West Bromwich Albion.
Personally speaking, I haven’t booed or been overly critical towards Val or the players this season. But I will say this; at times what I’ve seen against Bournemouth, Luton, Arsenal in the League Cup, Peterborough, Milwall, Derby, Preston and QPR last night hasn’t been to the standard I expect from WBA. Not playing in the second tier of English football having just been relegated from the Premier League.
Right now we’re second in the league after 9 games and still unbeaten. No, I don’t personally find the football itself brilliant. But I’m more interested in how we overcome the challenges which will come our way between now and the end of the January 2022 transfer window.
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Football is a passionate game and boos are a manifestation of that, take that emotion away and the atmosphere and the game itself becomes sterile.
Boo on boys, if that’s what your heart says.
Val has big shoulders and, instead of sulking, should be asking “why are these lifelong supporters not happy and what can I do about it?â€
I’ll admit that my in game emotions were anger and frustration. Until we scored. But I am fickle and I make no apology for it, I have 40+ years invested in this club so I’ve earned the right to express whatever emotions I feel.
As it turned out, it was a fantastic result, so the evening ended happy 😃
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I cant work out what some of our fans want? We are still unbeaten, we are 3rd in the League, only 3 teams have scored more goals than us, only 2 teams have conceded less than us and yet some fans cant stop moaning.
If after 28 games we are 23rd in the league, and 23 more teams have scored more than us, and 22 have conceded less than us then start to moan and I will be with you, but to start moaning after only 8 games is beyond me. :o
If you brought a car in Bristol expecting it to get to Manchester , it flew up the m5 past glos ester , Cheltenham and Worcester …..but started to really judder and misfire around Birmingham….are you really going to say “it’s ok because the first 40 miles were 3xcellentâ€, or do you pull in and perhaps make some fixes ?
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Vals wife on twitter 'liking' lots of tweets of fans criticising the booing
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Football is a passionate game and boos are a manifestation of that, take that emotion away and the atmosphere and the game itself becomes sterile.
Boo on boys, if that’s what your heart says.
Val has big shoulders and, instead of sulking, should be asking “why are these lifelong supporters not happy and what can I do about it?â€
I’ll admit that my in game emotions were anger and frustration. Until we scored. But I am fickle and I make no apology for it, I have 40+ years invested in this club so I’ve earned the right to express whatever emotions I feel.
As it turned out, it was a fantastic result, so the evening ended happy 😃
Thing is they booed the substitutions particularly Diangana. Val may have a plan in his head as to how many minutes to give certain players given the intense style and 3 games in a week. Those booing don't know the reasons or thinking behind the decisions whether it's a tactical decision or there is some slight injury being managed so I can understand a manager feeling frustrated with the reaction given that we are not exactly in wheels falling off mode.
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What is a fan supposed to do?
If his her team are not playing well no effort etc etc
We cheer them on and on
But if the team continues to not play well etc a supporter is allowed to criticise surely?
How does one criticise?
It's a bit weird to not criticise to just keep on cheering them on to lose?
Ah well how sad never mind we start again on Tuesday, doing the same thing all over again then suddenly we're In division 3
Boo if you want it doesn't mean you don't love our club just those particular players at that moment in time the trouble is how long do you wait before you boo?
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It's not so much the booing, the supporters rarely get behind the team from the off other than the folks in the Smethwick. Atmosphere shocking until we score has been for years
Better atmospheres when we were losing to the likes of Grimsby and Crewe sadly
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What is a fan supposed to do?
If his her team are not playing well no effort etc etc
We cheer them on and on
But if the team continues to not play well etc a supporter is allowed to criticise surely?
How does one criticise?
It's a bit weird to not criticise to just keep on cheering them on to lose?
Ah well how sad never mind we start again on Tuesday, doing the same thing all over again then suddenly we're In division 3
Boo if you want it doesn't mean you don't love our club just those particular players at that moment in time the trouble is how long do you wait before you boo?
That almost reads like a poem ^^^ ;D
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What is a fan supposed to do?
If his her team are not playing well no effort etc etc
We cheer them on and on
But if the team continues to not play well etc a supporter is allowed to criticise surely?
How does one criticise?
It's a bit weird to not criticise to just keep on cheering them on to lose?
Ah well how sad never mind we start again on Tuesday, doing the same thing all over again then suddenly we're In division 3
Boo if you want it doesn't mean you don't love our club just those particular players at that moment in time the trouble is how long do you wait before you boo?
Do you think 'no effort' has been the case for any prolonged periods of play ? If the wheels are falling off and there's no effort then booing is understandable but we are not even close to that at the moment.
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Boo if you want it doesn't mean you don't love our club just those particular players at that moment in time the trouble is how long do you wait before you boo?
I wonder how many occasions there have been at other clubs when a so far undefeated team in 8 games (that's third in the table) got booed off at half-time?
Although not there in person for much of it, perhaps the booing fans are still dizzy from our marvellous performances and dazzling style of play from last season that led us to concede more goals by some distance than anyone else, with only 3 clubs scoring fewer goals than we did, resulting in us ending up with a goal difference of -41?
We've already won as many games this season as we did in the whole of last season. It actually took us until April 3rd last season to accumulate as many points as we've already got this season. Different division I know, but to be booing the team in these circumstances is unfathomable to me.
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Took a mate, who is a Sheffield United fan with me last night. He couldn't believe the booing at half time.
Honestly, some of the comments I read now, like Ismael would be facing a 'massive two games' had we lost. We are unbeaten.
As middle aged fan, find the gap between myself and fellow Albion fans growing every season, expectation wise, which is really sad. Think I have started to feel that way ever since we first got promoted to the Prem.
For me, as soon as Ismael got job, I thought 'this guy needs at least 2 years to build something'.
And here he is, getting judged after a handful of games he has won or drawn.
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Took a mate, who is a Sheffield United fan with me last night. He couldn't believe the booing at half time.
Honestly, some of the comments I read now, like Ismael would be facing a 'massive two games' had we lost. We are unbeaten.
As middle aged fan, find the gap between myself and fellow Albion fans growing every season, expectation wise, which is really sad. Think I have started to feel that way ever since we first got promoted to the Prem.
For me, as soon as Ismael got job, I thought 'this guy needs at least 2 years to build something'.
And here he is, getting judged after a handful of games he has won or drawn.
100% agree. How people can complain when we are unbeaten and in the top 2 spots is beyond me especially as it's plain to see there is room for much improvement in the squad
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It is becoming increasingly difficult to know what our fans want ? We get rid of a bloke who tried to get his teams to play a passing type game , replace him with a much more frugal , defensive type coach who didn’t fancy stopping , replace him with a very pragmatic type who has guided the team to an unbeaten start and still the natives are restless . Too many moan about certain players ok fine but if we get rid at least give a manager / head honcho time to replace and rebuild . To be after a manager after the start to the season we’ve had is so ridiculous it’s not true except it is . Some fans need to give their heads a wobble and either get behind team and manager or else stay at home and off the keyboard
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I wonder if this issue of booing is getting blown up out of proportion on here. It would have been only a small minority of fans, but in an otherwise quiet stadium, those few fans are enough to be heard.
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As a fan I want my team to entertain me by playing football
I do not care what league we play in
I don’t mind if we win or lose or draw
Even a loss can be great game
It doesn’t matter how many points or wins you have if it’s not entertaining
Even people defending VI admit the football isn’t great
If the football isn’t great what’s the point?
People are booing as they do not enjoy watching the game
If the result was all that mattered why sit there for 90 minutes to wait for it?
Just read about it online or turn up five minutes before the final whistle
The result is meaningless it’s how the result was achieved that were all addicted to
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... especially as it's plain to see there is room for much improvement in the squad
That's what people are complaining about. It's the fact that we struggle to adapt to the opposition and, as you say, it's plain to see.
When we've been beaten and we're outside the top 2 are we allowed to complain then?
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We barely won a game for a year under Bilic and a large percentage of our fans were distraught when he was sacked.
Now our fans are moaning and groaning and have knives out for the manager when we're one of only three unbeaten teams in the whole pyramid.
You couldn't make it up.
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It is becoming increasingly difficult to know what our fans want ? We get rid of a bloke who tried to get his teams to play a passing type game , replace him with a much more frugal , defensive type coach who didn’t fancy stopping , replace him with a very pragmatic type who has guided the team to an unbeaten start and still the natives are restless . Too many moan about certain players ok fine but if we get rid at least give a manager / head honcho time to replace and rebuild . To be after a manager after the start to the season we’ve had is so ridiculous it’s not true except it is . Some fans need to give their heads a wobble and either get behind team and manager or else stay at home and off the keyboard
I don't see that anyone wants him gone, I think that many of us are just frustrated with the style of play. Take the game on Friday night, first seventy minutes was poor, followed by 20 minutes of really good football and a superb outcome. For me the frustration lies with the quality of players we have and the boards lack of financial backing for VI. I sat there on friday and thought to myself 'this team is crying out for someone like Pereira who can run the game from the centre'. VI wants them to play one touch and he was a master at that. I get what VI is trying to do, but he needs the players to do the job, and you don't find them in the bargain buckets.....
For me the acid test will be in January to see if the board back VI financially.
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For me the booing is totally unacceptable.
I really don’t get it.
Unbeaten and in the top 2 is not the time to be booing but to be supporting and encouraging.
Booing substitutions that come about due to a team that currently wasn’t beating a team we should be beating is expected I thought?? And the fact those substitutions gave us a huge platform to go on and win the game shows the booing was absolutely unnecessary
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I don't see that anyone wants him gone, I think that many of us are just frustrated with the style of play. Take the game on Friday night, first seventy minutes was poor, followed by 20 minutes of really good football and a superb outcome. For me the frustration lies with the quality of players we have and the boards lack of financial backing for VI. I sat there on friday and thought to myself 'this team is crying out for someone like Pereira who can run the game from the centre'. VI wants them to play one touch and he was a master at that. I get what VI is trying to do, but he needs the players to do the job, and you don't find them in the bargain buckets.....
For me the acid test will be in January to see if the board back VI financially.
The line you have highlighted refers to Bilic
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As a fan I want my team to entertain me by playing football
I do not care what league we play in
I don’t mind if we win or lose or draw
Even a loss can be great game
It doesn’t matter how many points or wins you have if it’s not entertaining
Even people defending VI admit the football isn’t great
If the football isn’t great what’s the point?
People are booing as they do not enjoy watching the game
If the result was all that mattered why sit there for 90 minutes to wait for it?
Just read about it online or turn up five minutes before the final whistle
The result is meaningless it’s how the result was achieved that were all addicted to
If you aren’t enjoying it don’t go simples ! But to go with the intent of booing as soon as something goes wrong or god forbid the opposition don’t roll over in the first twenty minutes which is the case with some of our support is not only wrong it’s nuts !
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The line you have highlighted refers to Bilic
Sorry, misread it, my bad :(
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I wonder if this issue of booing is getting blown up out of proportion on here. It would have been only a small minority of fans, but in an otherwise quiet stadium, those few fans are enough to be heard.
It was very loud at half time Alex, from all around the stadium.
Not good really - what sort of message does that send to the players?
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As a fan I want my team to entertain me by playing football
I do not care what league we play in
I don’t mind if we win or lose or draw
Even a loss can be great game
It doesn’t matter how many points or wins you have if it’s not entertaining
Even people defending VI admit the football isn’t great
If the football isn’t great what’s the point?
People are booing as they do not enjoy watching the game
If the result was all that mattered why sit there for 90 minutes to wait for it?
Just read about it online or turn up five minutes before the final whistle
The result is meaningless it’s how the result was achieved that were all addicted to
Best kind of football is winning football. Nobody on Friday came out of the ground moaning, the place was buzzing. If we'd played wonderful football but hit the bar/post/keeper plays a blinder and lost everyone would have been frustrated and miserable.
I'm a child of the 70s who missed the golden years. I turned up at the Hawthorns for Buckley, Little, Gould at al. Only bright spots were Ossie and 6 months under Talbot until SGM arrived. Believe me I have seen much, much worse football.
Strikes me that the fan base of today would have been booing Sir Gary by now as his teams were VERY pragmatic in approach. Our years in the PL seem to have left a bizarre feeling of entitlement, teams should just role over and let West Brom tikka takka through them to an easy promotion. Not the real world.
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It was very loud at half time Alex, from all around the stadium.
Not good really - what sort of message does that send to the players?
The boos on the substitution were loud enough to be an embarrasment. Don't think Val was sulking, more giving those booing the middle finger. Fair play.
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It's probably a very contrasting experience for Val as his time at Barnsley would have been unanimous support from their fan base although, saying that, they wouldn't have been in the stadium to watch the football. The expectations are far greater here, justifiably so, however I honestly see very little genuine quality in this team. Grady is our star name and he has been out of form for a long time, apart from that we have some good players for this level but nothing exceptional.
I was reading the match thread on a QPR forum and they were all complaining that they were being outplayed and that they weren't happy with Warbutton's tactics in the game. I think their tactics made complete sense and if their keeper had not made that poor error then they may well have won against an unbeaten team, one of the favourites for promotion, away from home, yet they all seemed unhappy. Fans are seldom pleased and the narrative turns on head if the results are positive, regardless of results the statistics demonstrate that apart from Millwall we really should have won those other games. The agricultural football is only a problem when we're not winning.
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As a fan I want my team to entertain me by playing football
I do not care what league we play in
I don’t mind if we win or lose or draw
Even a loss can be great game
It doesn’t matter how many points or wins you have if it’s not entertaining
Even people defending VI admit the football isn’t great
If the football isn’t great what’s the point?
People are booing as they do not enjoy watching the game
If the result was all that mattered why sit there for 90 minutes to wait for it?
Just read about it online or turn up five minutes before the final whistle
The result is meaningless it’s how the result was achieved that were all addicted to
If we lost the first 9 games in a season but were playing well would you say the result was meaningless cause the team played well?
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We were headed for a certain 0-1 loss, until a terrible goalkeeping error that make Johnstone's look minor in comparison. We never looked like scoring.
So according to your original statement if we had lost 0-1 our next game would have been a 'must-win' for VI to save his job??
Mate you've picked the wrong club to follow...we can't meet your expectations....throw your Albion shirt away and buy a chelsea or man u shirt....as JP accurately summarised, wba natural place in the world is mid table championship....somehow we've outperformed, thanks to SGM and Roy, but it won't last for ever
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So according to your original statement if we had lost 0-1 our next game would have been a 'must-win' for VI to save his job??
Mate you've picked the wrong club to follow...we can't meet your expectations....throw your Albion shirt away and buy a chelsea or man u shirt....as JP accurately summarised, wba natural place in the world is mid table championship....somehow we've outperformed, thanks to SGM and Roy, but it won't last for ever
Can we cut this out about telling people to go and buy other shirts?
Its a forum where views of both sides are allowed, not just one side.
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What is a fan supposed to do?
If his her team are not playing well no effort etc etc
We cheer them on and on
But if the team continues to not play well etc a supporter is allowed to criticise surely?
How does one criticise?
It's a bit weird to not criticise to just keep on cheering them on to lose?
Ah well how sad never mind we start again on Tuesday, doing the same thing all over again then suddenly we're In division 3
Boo if you want it doesn't mean you don't love our club just those particular players at that moment in time the trouble is how long do you wait before you boo?
I don't think being near the top of the league is a sign the team is struggling and a reason to boo the team where do you go from there if they were losing every week .
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So according to your original statement if we had lost 0-1 our next game would have been a 'must-win' for VI to save his job??
Mate you've picked the wrong club to follow...we can't meet your expectations....throw your Albion shirt away and buy a chelsea or man u shirt....as JP accurately summarised, wba natural place in the world is mid table championship....somehow we've outperformed, thanks to SGM and Roy, but it won't last for ever
You made this up, I never said the next match was must win to save the Manager's job. All I said was he'd come under pressure if we lost to QPR and didn't win at Cardiff or Stoke before the international break.
Personally my whole family is Albion going back in time. I watched us lose 2-4 to Woking and 1-2 to Hartlepool.
We are a Championship club with a massive financial advantage over our rivals. I don't need to spell out how vital it is to get promoted this season. Therefore the Manager needs to maximise all available resources to achieve this.
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You made this up, I never said the next match was must win to save the Manager's job. All I said was he'd come under pressure if we lost to QPR and didn't win at Cardiff or Stoke before the international break.
Personally my whole family is Albion going back in time. I watched us lose 2-4 to Woking and 1-2 to Hartlepool.
We are a Championship club with a massive financial advantage over our rivals. I don't need to spell out how vital it is to get promoted this season. Therefore the Manager needs to maximise all available resources to achieve this.
An advantage the club failed to ultilise thus far.
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An advantage the club failed to ultilise thus far.
Our wage bill will be significantly higher than the other Championship clubs except probably Fulham.
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Our wage bill will be significantly higher than the other Championship clubs except probably Fulham.
Our income is signficantly higher too.
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A d Fulham are below us in the league by the way
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Our income is signficantly higher too.
I didn't mention our income.
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I must comment on our gk
I think he's OK and I'm not knocking him but can he speak?
There seems to be no communication whatsoever between him and his defenders or am I imaginig it?
For what its worth I'd cash in on him at Christmas.
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I didn't mention our income.
No, you mentioned the wage bill in comparison to the rest of the division when it comes to us having a financial advantage.
Our wage bill IS higher, but so is our income.
It's absurd not to think that we don't have a financial advantage over pretty much of the division. Actually, if you think we don't, then the only way is if we've been massively mismanaged.
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No, you mentioned the wage bill in comparison to the rest of the division when it comes to us having a financial advantage.
Our wage bill IS higher, but so is our income.
It's absurd not to think that we don't have a financial advantage over pretty much of the division. Actually, if you think we don't, then the only way is if we've been massively mismanaged.
It's because we have a higher income that we can afford to pay higher wages than other clubs so the suggestion that we're not using our advantage isn't strictly true.
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I must comment on our gk
I think he's OK and I'm not knocking him but can he speak?
There seems to be no communication whatsoever between him and his defenders or am I imaginig it?
For what its worth I'd cash in on him at Christmas.
Assuming anyone wants him. There were no takers in the summer. He’ll be decent back up for a Prem side on a free next summer.
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I must comment on our gk
I think he's OK and I'm not knocking him but can he speak?
There seems to be no communication whatsoever between him and his defenders or am I imaginig it?
For what its worth I'd cash in on him at Christmas.
I find this line of debate .......well senseless! and who would you replace him with?
Button!......really. So Super Button is the answer to all our gk problems - if we had any.
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I’ve not seen the media report it yet, but as I said in the match day thread. I believe it’s a record unbeaten start if we avoid defeat Tuesday.
There’s lots to work on but nobody has looked like beating us. I think VI has a solid enough foundation to build on. We are under scoring our xg and conversing more than our xg. Both positive.
I’m not total sold on VI to date on the pitch (off the pitch he’s been brilliant apart from maybe the pereira commments), but some of the criticism so far is over the top and sensationalist, even if there is stuff that shouldn’t be ignored.
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...
We are a Championship club with a massive financial advantage over our rivals. I don't need to spell out how vital it is to get promoted this season. Therefore the Manager needs to maximise all available resources to achieve this.
Do we really have a financial advantage over the likes of Stoke with its Bet365 owners, over Sheffield Utd with its Saudi prince as an owner, over Fulham with its billionaire owner? I don't believe so.
Is it really "vital" to get promoted this season? Would it destroy us to stay in the Championship for one or two more years. What happened last time we went up straightaway?
Maybe we could take a few seasons to become a club with a smart recruitment system and modern fitness methods like Brentford, we'll never compete on spending power.
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If we lost the first 9 games in a season but were playing well would you say the result was meaningless cause the team played well?
If the team were playing well and lost then there isn’t much more they could do? It’s either bad luck an individual error or the players have reached there level the results would be tough to take but I would have enjoyed the football which is what I would have gone to watch not a league leaderboard
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How many games did VI manage at Barnsley with fans in the ground? He will have (i think) taken over a struggling team had fairly immediate improvement and then covid struck, so he may not have been exposed to his decisions being reacted to negatively since LASK ??
Maybe he needs to develop thicker skin ?
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How many games did VI manage at Barnsley with fans in the ground? He will have (i think) taken over a struggling team had fairly immediate improvement and then covid struck, so he may not have been exposed to his decisions being reacted to negatively since LASK ??
Maybe he needs to develop thicker skin ?
Without looking it up I think Barnsley supporters were in attendance for one league game last season. If VI needs to develop thicker skin then our support base needs to adopt the virtues of patience and balanced reflection in equal measure at the same time.
Honestly, I know we're all entitled to an opinion but there's been times this weekend when it's felt like I'm wading top lip deep through a swamp of poorly conceived and unadulterated drivel. One extra fart and I'd have drowned.
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Maybe he needs to develop thicker skin ?
Maybe fans shouldn't be booing when their team is unbeaten after 8 games and sitting third in the table (as was the situation at the time of the boos)? I can most certainly understand him being irked by it.
The shots on goal stats I compiled and posted in this thread on Saturday have been ignored, but what they revealed is that booing fans can only really be being picky about the style of play, because there aren't any other grounds to criticise on. If style of play is their main concern, I'm not sure where those fans were when the likes of Pulis and Allardyce were boring the pants off everyone?
I have quite strong views myself about the way we should play but, as long as our game is based around attacking rather than sitting back, I'm willing to accept a more rustic style of play if it's bringing results and, given that the players are still in the process of adapting to a system that's completely new to them, P9 W5 D4 L0 F16 A8 is more than good enough in my book.
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Maybe fans shouldn't be booing when their team is unbeaten after 8 games and sitting third in the table (as was the situation at the time of the boos)? I can most certainly understand him being irked by it.
The shots on goal stats I compiled and posted in this thread on Saturday have been ignored, but what they revealed is that booing fans can only really be being picky about the style of play, because there aren't any other grounds to criticise on. If style of play is their main concern, I'm not sure where those fans were when the likes of Pulis and Allardyce were boring the pants off everyone?
I have quite strong views myself about the way we should play but, as long as our game is based around attacking rather than sitting back, I'm willing to accept a more rustic style of play if it's bringing results and, given that the players are still in the process of adapting to a system that's completely new to them, P9 W5 D4 L0 F16 A8 is more than good enough in my book.
I agree with your post but I'd like to point out that Pulis was regularly booed and fans weren't allowed in the ground during Allardyce's reign apart from the West Ham game (but I'm sure plenty were booing from their armchairs).
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Maybe fans shouldn't be booing when their team is unbeaten after 8 games and sitting third in the table (as was the situation at the time of the boos)? I can most certainly understand him being irked by it.
The shots on goal stats I compiled and posted in this thread on Saturday have been ignored, but what they revealed is that booing fans can only really be being picky about the style of play, because there aren't any other grounds to criticise on. If style of play is their main concern, I'm not sure where those fans were when the likes of Pulis and Allardyce were boring the pants off everyone?
I have quite strong views myself about the way we should play but, as long as our game is based around attacking rather than sitting back, I'm willing to accept a more rustic style of play if it's bringing results and, given that the players are still in the process of adapting to a system that's completely new to them, P9 W5 D4 L0 F16 A8 is more than good enough in my book.
Well said , Worcs. I am at a loss to understand the thinking behind some these so called supporters.
Like others have said I can only assume that this is the way the World is going, jump on any bandwagon. After a goal we sing ‘The Lord is my Shepherd’ but do we have to take this literally and act as the sheep!!
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I can't believe how many people are ignoring how emotive this game is.
There's 20 odd thousand who went on Friday who would have been building up to it all day, maybe longer, the emotion, the tension and the anticipation growing gradually as kick off nears. We then go a goal down after 40 seconds and it's like an almighty kick in the guts. All the way to half time and we don't really look like we are getting back into it, of course there is going to be discontent, this pent up emotion needs a release.
The exact same fans were overwhelmed with relief when Grant's first went in and then ecstatic at his second.
Football is an emotional rollercoaster, played out live in front of our eyes and our emotions react accordingly, we can't fully enjoy the highs without experiencing the lows. Let people deal with it their own way and you yours.
A bit like this place, it would be boring if we were all the same.
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when I say "Maybe VI needs to develop thicker skin", thats not for now. I agree that even if the football isnt Brazilian in nature its been effective and doesnt currently "deserve / warrant" booing.
BUT at some point we will lose games and then Valball will come under serious scrutiny and the Boo boys will multiply. Then Vl can't get upset, he has to weather it and he will need to have thicker skin. Criticism is part and parcel of the football managers role, they are quick enough to give it out to refs / players / boards / fans etc, so they should expect to receive it (accepted when it is appropriate )
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I can't believe how many people are ignoring how emotive this game is.
There's 20 odd thousand who went on Friday who would have been building up to it all day, maybe longer, the emotion, the tension and the anticipation growing gradually as kick off nears. We then go a goal down after 40 seconds and it's like an almighty kick in the guts. All the way to half time and we don't really look like we are getting back into it, of course there is going to be discontent, this pent up emotion needs a release.
What you're basically saying is that any team that's losing (or maybe even drawing) a home game at half-time should expect to be booed? That would be a sad state of affairs wouldn't it?
As for "we don't really look like we are getting back into it", I think only the final ball was lacking really and we did make plenty of in-roads against them down the flanks on the first half. I don't think it can reasonably be claimed that we didn't look like getting back into it during the first half. We had 7 shots in the first half compared to QPR's 2, it was hardly calamitous.
For me, after an initial brief bounce following the substitutions, the flattest period of the game was during the second half prior to our first goal where we managed only 3 further shots, but all the booing had taken place well before that.
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What you're basically saying is that any team that's losing (or maybe even drawing) a home game at half-time should expect to be booed? That would be a sad state of affairs wouldn't it?
As for "we don't really look like we are getting back into it", I think only the final ball was lacking really and we did make plenty of in-roads against them down the flanks on the first half. I don't think it can reasonably be claimed that we didn't look like getting back into it during the first half. We had 7 shots in the first half compared to QPR's 2, it was hardly calamitous.
For me, after an initial brief bounce following the substitutions, the flattest period of the game was during the second half prior to our first goal where we managed only 3 further shots, but all the booing had taken place well before that.
What I'm saying is that 10-15k fans do not set out with the intention of booing the team they have supported for 10/15/20/30 years. They set out, wanting with every fibre of their being, for us to play well and win, but the emotion gets the better of them. Do they feel a bit embarrassed afterwards, maybe, but football does strange things to people and, if we can't understand that, then who can?
I'm not a booer, never have been, but football still affects my emotions like nothing else in life.
I manage to hold down a job with great pressures and responsibility and I pride myself on my calmness and logical approach. When it comes to football, however, I feel pressure and anxiety at every turn and I can go through pretty much every emotion on a single matchday.
Instead of telling these fans to go and support someone else, we should try to accept that they are just like us, but that some people handle their emotions differently.
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1st half I can only remember the header and Diangana's shot. I genuinely can't remember any other good efforts on goal.
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1st half I can only remember the header and Diangana's shot. I genuinely can't remember any other good efforts on goal.
My main point is to question why so many fans were ready and willing to boo when we'd gone 8 games unbeaten, with a goal difference of +7 and were third in the table? It's not like we were inferior to QPR and were only trailing because we'd let a soft goal in.
The stats show that we haven't had less than 11 shots in any game yet and are averaging 17, compared to an average of conceding just 7 shots against. That being the case, and also us being unbeaten, hardly constituted a crisis that should warrant booing.
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What I'm saying is that 10-15k fans do not set out with the intention of booing the team they have supported for 10/15/20/30 years. They set out, wanting with every fibre of their being, for us to play well and win, but the emotion gets the better of them. Do they feel a bit embarrassed afterwards, maybe, but football does strange things to people and, if we can't understand that, then who can?
I'm not a booer, never have been, but football still affects my emotions like nothing else in life.
I manage to hold down a job with great pressures and responsibility and I pride myself on my calmness and logical approach. When it comes to football, however, I feel pressure and anxiety at every turn and I can go through pretty much every emotion on a single matchday.
Instead of telling these fans to go and support someone else, we should try to accept that they are just like us, but that some people handle their emotions differently.
I don't boo personally, I never have done. I have to say though that your very well thought out post has made me question some of my own behaviour when attending Albion matches. As you say, nothing else in life gets me like watching Albion does. And long may it continue. What cannot be denied is that for VI it is so far so good. A defeat will come soon I am sure (hope to be wrong of course) Our role as fans is to continue to give wholehearted support to the manager and the team that he chooses, whilst continuing to exercise our right to criticise where justified.
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A foolish minority making a small noise in a quiet place is likely to be heard no matter how small or insignificant that minority or their noise is. It is a weapon that should only be used with great care, lest it creates a monster that cannot be easily dealt with. Just look at politics.
Firstly let it be known I am not against booing per se. Booing opponents or officials I really do get, and am fully and vehemently in favour of, deserved or not. I also used to scream abuse at the aforementioned in a very loud voice, parade ground battle roar trained, and still scream at the tv when we are on and I can't attend. the game. The emotive reactions etc I do understand and am subject to more than most- believe me. However booing your own team?
Would any 'supporter' who was booing West Brom during any of the games this season please enlighten me as to:
Who were you actually booing?
Why you felt the need to boo. What were your reasons?
How did you think it would improve the on field efforts of the team you 'support'?
What longer term objectives do you expect to achieve by booing the team you 'support' during a match?
This is not facetious, I really am keen to understand your points of view on the subject. At present I am at a complete loss as to why you are booing a team that is in the middle of a complete change of styles, but with every individual trying to give of his best, even if in some of our eyes it is a limited best. Also a team that has not lost in the first 9 games, has a lot of shots at goal and plays with an attacking intent, and so far this season has not been outplayed in any part of any game. So, please answer my questions so that I can understand why this team and manager is getting your abuse instead of your support.
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I also think fans must realise that we are unlikely to roll teams over early in the game without the help of dodgy defending and goalkeeping as the style VI is implementing will see us hopefully get more on top as the game progresses, which is I suspect is one of the reasons he was doing his fruit at our inability to keep the ball in play against Derby.
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My general rule has always been that any booing should be limited to the full time whistle, if fans are unhappy then it should never be directed at the team during the match or at half-time. Whilst the game is going on, they need our support and if fans feel let down at full time they can then let their voices be heard. That's how I have always acted, even when Crewe beat us 5-1 and fan threw his paper season ticket booklet at Dennis Smith. Although, equally, I appreciate other fans have the right to make a different choice, not that I approve of it.
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A foolish minority making a small noise in a quiet place is likely to be heard no matter how small or insignificant that minority or their noise is. It is a weapon that should only be used with great care, lest it creates a monster that cannot be easily dealt with. Just look at politics.
Firstly let it be known I am not against booing per se. Booing opponents or officials I really do get, and am fully and vehemently in favour of, deserved or not. I also used to scream abuse at the aforementioned in a very loud voice, parade ground battle roar trained, and still scream at the tv when we are on and I can't attend. the game. The emotive reactions etc I do understand and am subject to more than most- believe me. However booing your own team?
Would any 'supporter' who was booing West Brom during any of the games this season please enlighten me as to:
Who were you actually booing?
Why you felt the need to boo. What were your reasons?
How did you think it would improve the on field efforts of the team you 'support'?
What longer term objectives do you expect to achieve by booing the team you 'support' during a match?
This is not facetious, I really am keen to understand your points of view on the subject. At present I am at a complete loss as to why you are booing a team that is in the middle of a complete change of styles, but with every individual trying to give of his best, even if in some of our eyes it is a limited best. Also a team that has not lost in the first 9 games, has a lot of shots at goal and plays with an attacking intent, and so far this season has not been outplayed in any part of any game. So, please answer my questions so that I can understand why this team and manager is getting your abuse instead of your support.
What a cracking post and one I fully agree with. All points so well made and asking pertinent questions. I for one do not boo my team. I get frustrated , yes who doesn’t , but I understand we are also going through a transition period and things sometimes don’t go to plan. We have to trust the players and manager otherwise what’s the point. I have every confidence with the manager and hopefully he will lead us to the promised land ……..
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Not as I boo myself as can’t see the point ,but maybe those people who boo do it out of desperation after a rather insipid first half performance and as a spur maybe to encourage the players maybe to try a bit harder when they come out for the second half ,ie kind of I’ll show these cheeky sods how I can play
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Not as I boo myself as can’t see the point ,but maybe those people who boo do it out of desperation after a rather insipid first half performance and as a spur maybe to encourage the players maybe to try a bit harder when they come out for the second half ,ie kind of I’ll show these cheeky sods how I can play
Over the years on this forum i have seen many posts of people lambasting players. When these players scored the winning goals the posters claimed credit for it!
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I actually feel this forum is not the place to ask why fans booed; they probably aren’t on here as most on this forum can hold a decent conversation about football and understand it’s more than just ratings on the latest edition of FIFA.
The booing came from the upper Brummie mostly; I presume most of these are kids/youngsters who probably think we should just roll over QPR.
As we saw, they are a decent side and one whom I expect to be too 6 come May.
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This is why the game is so good, the emotion, the passion. Just because some fans vent verbally during the game should not be reason to criticize. If everyone went along and passively took whatever was served up and said , well we could be Derby, that would be worse. Although in the USA I was there during our time falling from div 1 to effectively division 3. People booed and moaned and then there was the elation of wembely for the playoff final. It’s because the fans care so much.
The football for the last four games has been terrible, my opinion, and i hope it gets better. The total lack of finesse shown is difficult to watch, second half against QPR was easier to watch. I booed at my computer at half time.
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I actually feel this forum is not the place to ask why fans booed; they probably aren’t on here as most on this forum can hold a decent conversation about football and understand it’s more than just ratings on the latest edition of FIFA.
The booing came from the upper Brummie mostly; I presume most of these are kids/youngsters who probably think we should just roll over QPR.
As we saw, they are a decent side and one whom I expect to be too 6 come May.
I agree with you that the ones that booed are probably not on here, certainly not in any great numbers, and did think before I posted about the general levels of understanding on this forum. This led me hope, as is seeming to be the case, that there might be some genuine insights into possible motives for the booing, and where it came from. Your own observation is a case in point.
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Top 2, unbeaten & a new manager who has not had any real money.
Imagine what he can do if we ever back him properly.
The booing is embarrassing and if you are a boo boy then please stop coming!
That section of out fan base who boo at HT, & boo the subs make me feel embarrassed to support this football club.
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Top 2, unbeaten & a new manager who has not had any real money.
Imagine what he can do if we ever back him properly.
The booing is embarrassing and if you are a boo boy then please stop coming!
That section of out fan base who boo at HT, & boo the subs make me feel embarrassed to support this football club.
What about if fans encouraged their team for the 90 mins no matter what and then got on a fan site and let off steam complaining there. @NJS: idea is patent pending
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What about if fans encouraged their team for the 90 mins no matter what and then got on a fan site and let off steam complaining there. @NJS: idea is patent pending
It's just not human nature mate, unfortunately. Everyone deals with stress differently and for some it manifests as anger / frustration and needs to be released. No-one goes out to boo, it's a reaction to the situation. The reason no-one comes on here or rocks up in the pub saying "I'm a booer and proud" is because it's probably a bit uncomfortable after the event.
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Football emotion defies logic. I’m almost embarrassed about how much I care about 11 men I’ve never met kicking a bag of air into a net more times than another 11 men I’ve never met. I can’t explain why I refer to a ref who’s just doing a job as a ****** or why I love SBT, SKP and SGM (who I’ve never met) and not Don Goodman or Mick McCarthy (who I’ve not met either). In every other way I’m a sensible, well adjusted human being with a positive and kind outlook on life. I’d never dream of being rude to a waitress but will happily scream at someone doing their job on a football field. I’d never dream of hugging and boinging up and down with a complete stranger in any other setting. So, no I don’t boo our team at half time and then cheer them at full time but I can absolutely see why others would do so!
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Football emotion defies logic. I’m almost embarrassed about how much I care about 11 men I’ve never met kicking a bag of air into a net more times than another 11 men I’ve never met. I can’t explain why I refer to a ref who’s just doing a job as a ****** or why I love SBT, SKP and SGM (who I’ve never met) and not Don Goodman or Mick McCarthy (who I’ve not met either). In every other way I’m a sensible, well adjusted human being with a positive and kind outlook on life. I’d never dream of being rude to a waitress but will happily scream at someone doing their job on a football field. I’d never dream of hugging and boinging up and down with a complete stranger in any other setting. So, no I don’t boo our team at half time and then cheer them at full time but I can absolutely see why others would do so!
Great post. I will much to my families bewilderment will be getting up at 2.30 a.m. to watch a midweek match in the second tier of English football. I never booed our players when I was a season ticket holder. The only person who deserves booing in my opinion is the owner. We were told VI would have funds to compete in this league and we haven't spent a penny on a single transfer.
I think VI is great. He has a plan he cares and he appears to put the time and effort into trying to win games. I cant say the same for all our past managers. Get behind him and the team, its got to help us play better and I think that's what our problems has been. Not the style being bad but the execution of the style of play being bad to watch. Booing will not make us play better. I will certainly be cheering the lads on tonight 6000 miles away in my kitchen.
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Ten unbeaten, top of the league. Keep up the great work VI
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Fantastic tonight. The manager has clearly adapted the tactics to suit a short, sharp passing style, and that’s what the fans were crying out for.
The reintroduction of CR7 has supported this change too.
More of this, please!
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Fantastic result to show just how utterly mental it has been to have people questioning this guy.
When you look at how awful we had been under Slav post COVID, those embarrassing first few games under Big Sam, the total farce our board have delivered in summer transfers, this guy coming in and going unbeaten in 10, averaging 2.2 points a game, 2 goals a game and conceding 0.8 per game, and on course to take us to 88 points after 40 games- which is title winning form- is quite remarkable.
As above- I wonder what we could achieve if we backed him and added a few more natural fits to his system.
Think a few people have become to think we’re “entitled†to promotions having been so fortunate to enjoy the past 20 years.
This one will be as hard as any thanks to the board, but looks like we’re in the hunt thanks to the manager.
Good luck and keep fighting for every point V.I
Boing Boing
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Got to give the man credit he saw the problem & rectified it on the training pitch. We’ve seen over the years some managers are too stubborn to change their ways. 10 unbeaten to start off with & you can still see this team has room to improve, he’s galvanised the squad the confidence was rock bottom last year so to turn them round so soon with a completely new style of play is credit to Val & the coaches. Let’s get behind the bloke.
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Very happy he has shown he is adaptable.
Always liked the guy but felt he was hitting his head against a brick wall with the constant long balls. Now we are mixing it up we are less predictable and finding ways to win against teams who are happy to sit back for a point. Keep it up!
Still got 2 of our 3 first choice defenders out injured as well for me in Clarke and O'Shea. More to come from these players at this level.
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He's managed to implement an entirely new style with a lot of the existing players and get them to unbeaten in 10 games, top goalscorers and top of the league.
And this is the infancy of the new style. When it gels completely we will be some force to sop in this division
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10 games in as posted over 2 points a game which should give us automatic spot, unbeaten in league just need to play more on the grass because we show our quality so happy days.
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He's managed to implement an entirely new style with a lot of the existing players and get them to unbeaten in 10 games, top goalscorers and top of the league.
And this is the infancy of the new style. When it gels completely we will be some force to sop in this division
He mixed it up tonight Tom, proving he's not a one trick pony.
For that reason, this is the best performance of the season for me.
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I didn't understand the fans who claimed the manager was under pressure a week ago and I'm not getting hugely carried out after a convincing win tonight as Cardiff were barely championship standard.
The stand-out teams in the league so far this season are us, Bournemouth and Fulham, with Stoke looking menacing and Sheff Utd catching-up. On the plus side for us, some of our better defenders aren't available at the moment who will strengthen the team. Also the 3-4-3 system that Val likes isn't one that opposition teams like facing at this level, as we always have three players in their last third on transition and they happen to be our better players.
So positive signs but a long way to go and Friday is a tough match. Essentially, it's September, so it's very much keep feet on the ground stage of the season.
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He mixed it up tonight Tom, proving he's not a one trick pony.
For that reason, this is the best performance of the season for me.
This, it's what we've been crying out for. If a team decides to sit back and soak up expected long balls it leaves space in front of the defence. In recent games we've just persisted with hitting it long, tonight we got it on the floor and played some lovely passing moved to carve then open.
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Fantastic tonight. The manager has clearly adapted the tactics to suit a short, sharp passing style, and that’s what the fans were crying out for.
The reintroduction of CR7 has supported this change too.
More of this, please!
This for me. In total agreement.
We knew Cardiff wanted a scrappy game and therefore we tried moving the ball quickly and between the lines.
As soon as we got the first goal their game plan of five centre halves went straight out the window.
I’ve never seen an Albion side control a second half like we did by simply keeping possession. It didn’t need full on intensity - controlling a game will provide you with the opportunities.
Much bettter & credit to all.
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A mark of a good manager is one who gets the best out of his players. There are a lot of other managers who would not have this group unbeaten and top of the league. He is adapting well to different opposition and he's very aware about rotating the forwards to keep them sharp and fit for the next game.
Also remember, we lost our best and most creative player in the close season, and some very useful loanees.
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i love his passion thats for sure, reminds me a bit of Klopp at the end of games coming on the pitch
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A great way to celebrate his 46th Birthday!
I think he fully understood our frustrations with not being able to break down stubborn negative sides like Millwall, Derby and to a degree Preston. His post match comments and programme notes made that clear too.
Last night showed he has found a way to play against it.
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A really great performance last night Al deserves a lot of credit he's come here and turned it round for almost nothing
Fantastic effort all round
Another very interesting point and equally as important is his rotation of players I think is very brave and at any time but my point is that by changing the team around keeps them all hungry and happy
It seems like this group all want to play for him and no dissenters or bad apples
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Highlights I saw were much better, it looked like we played the ball on the deck and moved it quickly. A big contrast to Millwall, Derby, Preston.
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a bit of praise coming in
https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1097878131?-11200:789
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a bit of praise coming in
https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1097878131?-11200:789
Nice to see praise from pundits, but for me it certainly wasn't our best performance of the season. I regard that as being either Sheff Utd or Blackburn.
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Nice to see praise from pundits, but for me it certainly wasn't our best performance of the season. I regard that as being either Sheff Utd or Blackburn.
Really? Interesting how opinions vary isn't it? I thought it was easily our best performance.
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Nice to see praise from pundits, but for me it certainly wasn't our best performance of the season. I regard that as being either Sheff Utd or Blackburn.
Sheffield for me too, that was total domination for 90 minute against a very good team, albeit on awful form at the time. Blackburn and Cardiff were great as they were away from home and again, near complete performances. Cardiff were woeful and were there for the taking, which we were only too happy to oblige
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Really? Interesting how opinions vary isn't it? I thought it was easily our best performance.
Winning 4-0 away is a fantastic result, almost as good as it comes, but I feel the extent of the victory was primarily down to the 2 great strikes and Cardiff's immense ineptitude. In general, I don't think we played better than we did against QPR, despite there being no shortage of people seeking to justify those who booed at half-time last Friday!
I remember posting at half-time in the Cardiff game that it hadn't been a pretty sight and then Cardiff came much more into the game until the farcical second goal reduced them to gibbering wrecks for the remainder of the game. Our set pieces were also hopeless throughout the game, when they've generally been of very high quality previously. Therefore, I believe we can play much, much better than that and have already done so earlier in the season.
In saying that, I don't wish to take anything away from Valerien, who I think is doing a top-notch job when you consider the squad he has available.
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Sheffield for me too, that was total domination for 90 minute against a very good team, albeit on awful form at the time. Blackburn and Cardiff were great as they were away from home and again, near complete performances. Cardiff were woeful and were there for the taking, which we were only too happy to oblige
Sheffield are awful. I'd also add that they stuck to their gameplan which was clearly not working - and that made our tactics way more successful. What made the last game a better performance for me, was that it was our change in tactics that tilted the game in our way.
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Our performances so far have been exactly what I expected. I thought it would take a dozen games to get familiar and try to ingrain a new style into the players. As they play this style more and more they will get better. That’s why I think we had a few games where the players took the easy option and resorted to high long ball. I love this high intensity style when played well.
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Our performances so far have been exactly what I expected. I thought it would take a dozen games to get familiar and try to ingrain a new style into the players. As they play this style more and more they will get better. That’s why I think we had a few games where the players took the easy option and resorted to high long ball. I love this high intensity style when played well.
Nail on the head! The style has been questioned when, actually, it is not the style that is the problem, it is the ability of the players to adapt to what VI wants. Based on the Cardiff game, the penny is starting to drop. :)
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Really? Interesting how opinions vary isn't it? I thought it was easily our best performance.
You have to factor in how terrible Cardiff were.
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You can only beat who's in front of you mate
We crushed them forget how poor you think Cardiff are, we didn't allow them to be any good
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Nice to see praise from pundits, but for me it certainly wasn't our best performance of the season. I regard that as being either Sheff Utd or Blackburn.
As often happens, after the crushing second half sparked by a Keystone Cops own goal most seem to have forgotten that we lost our way a bit first half and would have gone in 1-1 but for Furlong's goal line clearance. Not being negative just talking about the reality of football and those sliding doors moments.
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You can only beat who's in front of you mate
We crushed them forget how poor you think Cardiff are, we didn't allow them to be any good
My point was you have to take into account the performance of the opposition when considering what our best display has been so far this season; we didn't need to break sweat to dispatch Cardiff. Whereas at Bournemouth on the opening day we faced genuine quality. Overall I'd agree with an earlier poster, Sheff Utd at home, is probably our best display so far; albeit I think we have been fairly consistent, even in most of the games we failed to win, purely due to missed chances.
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Nail on the head! The style has been questioned when, actually, it is not the style that is the problem, it is the ability of the players to adapt to what VI wants. Based on the Cardiff game, the penny is starting to drop. :)
Yes I agree, we are still in the early stages of progression, Val has hardly been here long enough to hang his coat up.
the improvement is there to see and when we play with such high intensity and the ball is flying around compared to what we have been playing it will take time.
Funny though how its how bad teams were when we give out a good hiding, I have a feeling there may be a few more sides that are going to be poor.
I really like Val and his appetite for the game is brilliant.
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sorry serious concerns with this guy. I did something I have never done before, turned off. A truly dreadful performance
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I don’t rate Val. Shame but I don’t think we will go up under him. We talk about intensity etc but I couldn’t describe our style of play as we’ve been found out early. We didn’t press effectively against Stoke tonight - they just played through and around us.
What does it leave us with - Neanderthal hit and hope. Not for me.
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I think with better recruitment bringing in the right players to fit the system, it could work quite well. It definitely suits being the under dog though, we struggle to break teams down as you need a bit of foot-on-the-ball quality to do that and we instead play just the 2 midfielders.
It’s been a hard watch these last few games.
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Seems to be not much middle ground in his style , either we blitz a team and make a large number of chances or we end up creating little other than lofted balls to nobody or aimless crosses .
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Seems to be not much middle ground in his style , either we blitz a team and make a large number of chances or we end up creating little other than lofted balls to nobody or aimless crosses .
In general we have got more right than wrong this season so far. Somebody correctly said in the match thread that we need to keep it in perspective and not get too hysterical. Really disappointing result and performance but that's football. It's time to lick our wounds, take a break, get some of the injured players back and then go again in a couple of weeks.
In short - no chance I am letting this ruin my weekend and I'm already looking forward to us taking on Blues; so let's get behind Ismael in two weeks.
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Blaming performance on tiredness well if you stick with a core group of 14 players and don’t manage your squad better then tiredness will be a problem. What do the fringe players especially in midfield need to do to be given a chance? Ishmael has favourites that’s for sure only reason Livermore is getting a game IMO.
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In general we have got more right than wrong this season so far. Somebody correctly said in the match thread that we need to keep it in perspective and not get too hysterical. Really disappointing result and performance but that's football. It's time to lick our wounds, take a break, get some of the injured players back and then go again in a couple of weeks.
In short - no chance I am letting this ruin my weekend and I'm already looking forward to us taking on Blues; so let's get behind Ismael in two weeks.
Thin lines , Millwall had enough chances to beat us for example . I'm not keen on the kick and rush style either , these players are capable of better than that .
I'm not massive on changing the forwards about most games or the 60 min double sub when all he changes are the players not the tactics .
Still very early days but If you play limited football you need results more often than not.
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Seems to be not much middle ground in his style , either we blitz a team and make a large number of chances or we end up creating little other than lofted balls to nobody or aimless crosses .
I think if the opposition defence are comfortable dealing with long balls then we struggle. If Hugill is the target man then their defence doesn't even need to be average.
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Ishmael frustrates the hell out of me when things aren’t going are way which is becoming more of an issue, can only think of four games where we played well Bournemouth, Sheff united, Blackburn and Cardiff. The other games have been of a standard slightly better than Stoke. Might seem harsh but when he analysis games what tweaks does he bring to next game nothing from where I’m standing other than swapping out our forward line. Tonight again when midfield was being overwhelmed by Stoke he changed two of his forward, back line looked like conceding with every attack but he did nothing to bolster defence.
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Ishmael frustrates the hell out of me when things aren’t going are way which is becoming more of an issue, can only think of four games where we played well Bournemouth, Sheff united, Blackburn and Cardiff. The other games have been of a standard slightly better than Stoke. Might seem harsh but when he analysis games what tweaks does he bring to next game nothing from where I’m standing other than swapping out our forward line. Tonight again when midfield was being overwhelmed by Stoke he changed two of his forward, back line looked like conceding with every attack but he did nothing to bolster defence.
Who would you bring in to replace the defenders? If you are suggesting bringing on an extra defender, that would have the effect of making the team sit deeper, which wouldn't have created better goal chances. I think his post-match interview is honest. We did look a bit tired.
Furlong and Reach didn't get in behind the Stoke backs enough, and we didn't find the openings down the middle. However, I don't think there's anything basically wrong with Val's tactics.
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Who would you bring in to replace the defenders? If you are suggesting bringing on an extra defender, that would have the effect of making the team sit deeper, which wouldn't have created better goal chances. I think his post-match interview is honest. We did look a bit tired.
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/ismaels-verdict-fridays-loss-stoke
Furlong and Reach didn't get in behind the Stoke backs enough, and we didn't find the openings down the middle. However, I don't think there's anything basically wrong with Val's tactics.
Clarke was on bench so easy fix there take of Townsend as his experiment in back three wasn’t working.
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The sign of a good manager is someone who adapts to the game as it progresses. We were being over run and we’re second to everything in midfield.
Our bout of wisdom was to change two of the three forward players. The equivalent of shuffling the chairs on a sinking ship.
We should have matched them in the midfield and brought on Molumby to replace one of the forwards. We were crying out for an additional body just to bring some control to the game. I appreciate he replaced the injured Mowatt in the end but it was another like for like swap.
Instead we swear by this bloody system which saw us second best. The high press was totally ineffective as Stoke took us on and passed the ball through us. There was no merit at all in persevering with something that clearly was not working.
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I’m surprised Clarke didn’t get a run in the last 15 mins. Would have given him some game time but now he’s got to wait two weeks.
Then again, Mowatt got injured and I guess Val had to bring Molumby on, no other choice.
For me at 0-0 I would have been happy with either of Diangana or Phillips coming on but not both.
It was plain at that time that Stoke had the upper hand so we should have allowed for that.
I would have made the change Phillips for Hugill as he did but would have then brought Clarke on for Reach or Townsend after 65. We still would have had a sub for injuries such as Mowatt’s.
To me Grady is not his old self and really didn’t show any threat when he came on.
We had the chance to bolster our defence a bit and get a point (perhaps even nick it if we were lucky) but we let that chance slip away.
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The sign of a good manager is someone who adapts to the game as it progresses. We were being over run and we’re second to everything in midfield.
Our bout of wisdom was to change two of the three forward players. The equivalent of shuffling the chairs on a sinking ship.
We should have matched them in the midfield and brought on Molumby to replace one of the forwards. We were crying out for an additional body just to bring some control to the game. I appreciate he replaced the injured Mowatt in the end but it was another like for like swap.
Instead we swear by this bloody system which saw us second best. The high press was totally ineffective as Stoke took us on and passed the ball through us. There was no merit at all in persevering with something that clearly was not working.
This , so far is my main issue with Val .
You could almost admire his faith in the system but clearly there have been times its needed changing but instead we get subs on rather than a tweak of formation .
Worrying.
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I do get annoyed that he makes his 2 standard subs in the front lines and then has 1 potential switch to change tactics or for injury. Think today would have been ideal for one of the 2 subs on 60 to be molumby and try win the battle in middle of park.
However perspective is 11 games in we have only lost 1 and are running at 2 points a game. I still think this squad is as poor as any squad we have had at this level minus megson first promotion team.
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The players will, if they have not already, get fed up of his management style.
Last night he was instructing who should take the corners FFS.
Like it matters! Since Clarke limped off at Blackburn we have offered no threat at corners, and Furlong has wasted a lot of energy in wiping the ball and hurling it into nowhere.
Clarke will make a difference on his return, but I despair that we have not tried something a little different in his absence.
I was at Cardiff and watched the players stroll through the game.If they were tired last night then it was due to his training methods and lack of squad rotation.
The decision not to strengthen the midfield when our two were being overun by Stoke's three, was manager negligence, and his constant practice of substituting two of the front three every game, his only offering.
Whilst currently we are averaging a very creditable 2 points per game. I have seen good performances and garbage in equal proportions and the variable seems merely the strength / management nous of the opposition.
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The football under him is terrible when team is not on top and he doesn’t or isn’t willing to change his shape or formation. Even being top of league his style of play is not pleasing on the eye and he seems to have problems in all areas of pitch . Defence looks like it will concede every time they need to defend while midfield seems to not be able to get control of the game and forwards look like they lack confidence in aspects of their play.
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What about the corner routine we have used which is a variation on the Sheringham one? Ajayi had a chance from it one game and there was another occasion when I think GD? received the ball and put it across the 6yd box. Small potatoes I agree but credit where credits due to say there has been no improvisation is just wrong ! Thing with this sort of variation is you can usually only get away with using it once per game.
It's the actual set up pre game that's the problem, no variation at all making it easy for others to plan how to cater for playing against us, indeed O' Neill said Stoke had tried things against Preston with last night in mind.
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The sign of a good manager is someone who adapts to the game as it progresses. We were being over run and we’re second to everything in midfield.
Our bout of wisdom was to change two of the three forward players. The equivalent of shuffling the chairs on a sinking ship.
We should have matched them in the midfield and brought on Molumby to replace one of the forwards. We were crying out for an additional body just to bring some control to the game. I appreciate he replaced the injured Mowatt in the end but it was another like for like swap.
Instead we swear by this bloody system which saw us second best. The high press was totally ineffective as Stoke took us on and passed the ball through us. There was no merit at all in persevering with something that clearly was not working.
Yep excellent post. There is no tactical flexibility that I can see so far.
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Some of this Criticism seems is a bit over the top. Days ago people were praising VIs adaptations and a new club record.
We weren’t at the races yesterday, we were completely off it. it happens to every team in this division every season on multiple occasions. No reason to panic yet.
After the international break, besides Fulham, we’ve got a decent run of fixtures right through until new year and we will head in to them, third at worst.
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Some of this Criticism seems is a bit over the top. Days ago people were praising VIs adaptations and a new club record.
We weren’t at the races yesterday, we were completely off it. it happens to every team in this division every season on multiple occasions. No reason to panic yet.
After the international break, besides Fulham, we’ve got a decent run of fixtures right through until new year and we will head in to them, third at worst.
Well said, the one minute were incredible (post Cardiff) and next minute Val is incompetent (post Stoke) crowd are irrational. I'm as critical as anyone of last nights game but like you say we have done well overall so far.
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As the two posters above me, we need to stay level-headed. We weren't world-beaters after Cardiff and we aren't mid-table-fodder after last night.
One criticism I do have is exactly the same as others though. The Sky Sports pundits pointed out that Stoke could plan to overrun the midfield and that was their biggest threat, if they knew then our coaching team must have. All that in mind, we could all see it was successful so taking Hugill off for Molumby would've worked well with wide forwards tucking in a bit, we needed to try and win the battle there and I do hope over time Val will realise he should change formations.
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Some of this Criticism seems is a bit over the top. Days ago people were praising VIs adaptations and a new club record.
We weren’t at the races yesterday, we were completely off it. it happens to every team in this division every season on multiple occasions. No reason to panic yet.
After the international break, besides Fulham, we’ve got a decent run of fixtures right through until new year and we will head in to them, third at worst.
all clubs get criticism even the very best by their fan base, problem I see is that we don’t know which team will turn up each week and some performances are unacceptable. Since last international break we have accumulated 9 points which is about 1.5 per game that’s mid table form. The high intensity press which makes Valball effective has gone as Stoke played out from the back on numerous occasions and the fabled press was no where to be seen.
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Some of this Criticism seems is a bit over the top. Days ago people were praising VIs adaptations and a new club record.
That's football and that's fans. Things are either brilliant or rubbish. Players who aren't playing are always better than those that are etc.
It happens at every football club.
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I love Marmite and used to eat it on wholemeal toast almost every day. Some days it was more enjoyable than on others. I now eat blueberries, raspberries and walnuts with porridge oats, milled flaxseed and Skyr yogurt almost every day. Some days I prefer it more than others. As ze seagulls follow ze trawler.....
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Like a number of fans I probably want too much too soon. This is a complete change to the system and team and as such it will probably take time to show.if it will be successful. I am going to have to learn patience
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Coventry have thrashed Fulham. If Sheff Utd can beat Bournemouth than I have a suspicion that Val's stock will have gone up a fair bit today! Fingers crossed.
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I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with Val's tactics. Its more about getting the details right. Most of my adult life I've watched Albion teams sitting too deep with one or a couple of forwards having to scrap for balls, usually hopelessly outnumbered. Most of the time it wasn't very successful. At least under Val we are trying to play the game in the opposition half and get numbers forward. Playing a high back line is all part of that, even if it means the keeper has to take chances sweeping up. On stats, for shots I think we may be best in the division.
But its not going to work every match. The players have to be sharp but it must be difficult keeping everyone 100% up for every match when they are coming thick and fast. I think Stoke were slightly more up for it last night. In particular our back line were playing the offside trap, but it needs everyone staying 100% alert, as just being half a second too slow to react can mean the forward is through our back line. Which happened several times last night.
I don't think taking off a forward is the solution, as some people suggested. They are vital in maximising pressure on the opposition goal.
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VI has said players need a break
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/10/04/valerien-ismael-west-brom-need-a-rest/
“The energy was not there to get the result what we wanted,†Ismael said.
“We need to learn, we are frustrated because we wanted more.
“We will come back with a big motivation, we will work hard to put in a better performance – and we will put in a better performance – because we will be fresh against Birmingham.
“The aim is to bounce back straight away.â€
“The result at Stoke doesn’t change anything – we need to breathe, to recover,†the boss said.
“I haven’t seen my family for a number of weeks now.
“My only focus was West Brom.
“I need to see my family, to re-charge my batteries.
“And it’s exactly the same for the players.
“And we will come back fresh and ready to go again.
“We need to keep going, keep moving, keep working.â€
Albion were outplayed by Stoke for long spells on Friday.
But when Sam Johnstone saved a 71st minute penalty from Sam Surridge, it looked as though the Baggies might escape with a point.
In the end, Nick Powell found a winner for the home side.
But Ismael was disappointed his side didn’t kick on following the penalty miss.
“That can normally give you a second energy and put doubt into the opponent,†Ismael said on Johnstone’s penalty save.
“But even the power wasn’t there like usual.
“I think it was tiredness. And now we need to learn from that and recover quick because this is the Championship.
“Stoke are the best team we have played this season so far and they deserved to win, it’s as simple as that. Our performance was not good enough.â€
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A different perspective on how effective, or otherwise, Val's tactics have been so far https://experimental361.com/2021/10/07/scatter-graphics-championship-3-oct-2021/
One for the statistically literate to ponder over which counts me out!
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A different perspective on how effective, or otherwise, Val's tactics have been so far https://experimental361.com/2021/10/07/scatter-graphics-championship-3-oct-2021/
One for the statistically literate to ponder over which counts me out!
Think it tends to show what we all know.
Statistically, we're good, Aesthetically not so good.
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A different perspective on how effective, or otherwise, Val's tactics have been so far https://experimental361.com/2021/10/07/scatter-graphics-championship-3-oct-2021/
One for the statistically literate to ponder over which counts me out!
That is very interesting, thanks Frank. And we come out very well based on the methodology used in the charts. The much maligned defence and goalkeeper certainly do.
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Val's tactics require a stronger squad so that players can be rested when the games come thick and fast. Surely, he must realise that failing any money coming forth from the far east, he must give one or two of the youngsters a chance OR [take a punt | statistically select] on players from lower leagues.
I think we alll know this.
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not to bad for free transfers and loans and no striker.
Please back the man in January.
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Never really sure where to put these general things about multiple players that VI mentions, could we have an injury thread if possible or is that a rubbish idea?
Anyway tonight in his post match VI has said Grady was out with hamstring strain, just didn't want to risk it but will be back for Swansea game and Mowatt has bruised his toe, taken off as precaution.
Other comments from Brum Mail are
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/west-brom-injury-mowatt-diangana-21877369
“It was important to win the game. It was a difficult game, we knew exactly when you see the stats before the game - Birmingham have conceded 12 goals in five games, and we knew they’d change something,†he analysed.
“That was my expectation. They came for a clean sheet, to take a point, to waste time, to frustrate. It was important to stay calm and to continue putting the pressure on.
“I said to the guys at half time - we need to do it better, we need to move the ball quickly, to have quick free kicks and throw ins, to raise the intensity in the game. We have the quality to score at any moment, so be patient.
“Even if it’s 90+, we know we can score at any time and tonight it was the case. I’m delighted after the goal, it was much better. It gave a second breath to the crowd, the players. We managed the game very well.
“There were a lot of positive points. Three points, a clean sheet, a local derby won. Matt Clarke came back after his injury, played brilliantly. Jayson Molumby came in and gave a brilliant performance.
“Now it’s time to recover, because we move quickly against Swansea. We reached our purpose - we wanted to start the next block positively and I hope it’ll give the guys that confidence you need to take the next points.â€
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not to bad for free transfers and loans and no striker.
Please back the man in January.
This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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not to bad for free transfers and loans and no striker.
Please back the man in January.
Agree with this totally
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No issues with the results - they cut the mustard.
The performances though are boring. Tonight was abject from both. Awful game of football.
The results maybe enough for some, but for others… meh.
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No issues with the results - they cut the mustard.
The performances though are boring. Tonight was abject from both. Awful game of football.
The results maybe enough for some, but for others… meh.
You and a few others have unrealistic expectations. Want us to be be top of the league with this squad playing swashbuckling football. Lots of teams will look to make games scrappy against us, particularly at the Hawthorns.
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You and a few others have unrealistic expectations. Want us to be be top of the league with this squad playing swashbuckling football. Lots of teams will look to make games scrappy against us, particularly at the Hawthorns.
Here we go…
I don’t have unrealistic expectations - you’re making your own over exaggerated inference on what I want in an attempt to prove a point.
I want to see more quality and measure in our play - that is not unrealistic.
I want us to keep the ball on the floor and move through the pitch and try to move stubborn opposition defenders.
Games may be scrappy - but we’re contributing to that because our centre halves continuously spank the ball 60 yards up the pitch to a front three who prefer the ball on the floor and not in the air.
That is seriously not unrealistic.
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Here we go…
I don’t have unrealistic expectations - you’re making your own over exaggerated inference on what I want in an attempt to prove a point.
I want to see more quality and measure in our play - that is not unrealistic.
I want us to keep the ball on the floor and move through the pitch and try to move stubborn opposition defenders.
Games may be scrappy - but we’re contributing to that because our centre halves continuously spank the ball 60 yards up the pitch to a front three who prefer the ball on the floor and not in the air.
That is seriously not unrealistic.
You've just said exactly what I was thinking.
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The worry for me is that we are weaker as a squad than what we were last year. We had Pereirra, Yokeslu, Maitland-Niles, Gallagher last season and we've replaced them with inferior replacements.
We were short on quality for the Championship this season so assuming we get promoted we will be at least 7 players short of a decent Prem team next season.
It would appear that our owners business model is to have relative success and failure every other season and just collect the money.
Personally I can put up with that if we have a team and manager that can play football not this dirge that we seem to be watching for 90% of most games now.
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Here we go…
I don’t have unrealistic expectations - you’re making your own over exaggerated inference on what I want in an attempt to prove a point.
I want to see more quality and measure in our play - that is not unrealistic.
I want us to keep the ball on the floor and move through the pitch and try to move stubborn opposition defenders.
Games may be scrappy - but we’re contributing to that because our centre halves continuously spank the ball 60 yards up the pitch to a front three who prefer the ball on the floor and not in the air.
That is seriously not unrealistic.
I might have been a bit unfair identifying your post to make my point. I don't disagree with much of what you say, i.e. we want to see the team pass and keep the ball better but there was definitely way too much negatively and drivel on the match thread yesterday, everyone seems to forget about the opposition and assume that something is wrong if were are not hammering teams every week.
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The worry for me is that we are weaker as a squad than what we were last year. We had Pereirra, Yokeslu, Maitland-Niles, Gallagher last season and we've replaced them with inferior replacements.
We were short on quality for the Championship this season so assuming we get promoted we will be at least 7 players short of a decent Prem team next season.
It would appear that our owners business model is to have relative success and failure every other season and just collect the money.
Personally I can put up with that if we have a team and manager that can play football not this dirge that we seem to be watching for 90% of most games now.
If we got promoted to the PL though we would have 100m+, no covid payments or reductions this time. We'd have no one here over 35k even WTIH the flex up. We know Livermore is our top earner on 40k per week on the PL flex up wage. I'm not saying we'd stay up instantly but with some kind of strategy and a new HALF DECENT DOF we could strengthen and yo-yo till we cement ourselves.
As for VI he has to find a way for us to play around teams who just want us to long ball it. Been saying it since Peterborough. His lack of attacking diversity is worrying.
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I might have been a bit unfair identifying your post to make my point. I don't disagree with much of what you say, i.e. we want to see the team pass and keep the ball better but there was definitely way too much negatively and drivel on the match thread yesterday, everyone seems to forget about the opposition and assume that something is wrong if were are not hammering teams every week.
Would prefer it if you didn't label other supporter's views "drivel" to be honest.
The game was appalling. We had 67% possession, our 2nd shot on target on the 75th minute. We didn't even have half chances in between those. One bit of quick thinking from Livermore, and a bit of skill from Grant doesn't erase the rest of the game.
Let's face it, the 'struggling to score and poor football' has become the norm after those opening 4 games. If we have any plans on challenging for the top 2 then we need to be doing more than we're doing. We're not going to keep this up for an entire season, especially when we pick up injuries and suspensions.
Personally, I think the team is a better footballing team than we're showing. I don't consider that 'negative'.
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If we got promoted to the PL though we would have 100m+, no covid payments or reductions this time. We'd have no one here over 35k even WTIH the flex up. We know Livermore is our top earner on 40k per week on the PL flex up wage. I'm not saying we'd stay up instantly but with some kind of strategy and a new HALF DECENT DOF we could strengthen and yo-yo till we cement ourselves.
As for VI he has to find a way for us to play around teams who just want us to long ball it. Been saying it since Peterborough. His lack of attacking diversity is worrying.
There in lies the problem - The only strategy Lai has is trying to sell the club, with as little additional expenditure as possible. But even as a Premier League club he won't be getting his 200m back. VI got the job ultimately because he did a great job on the cheap with Barnsley. Im not sure he would put up with that philosophy moving forwards.
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Would prefer it if you didn't label other supporter's views "drivel" to be honest.
The game was appalling. We had 67% possession, our 2nd shot on target on the 75th minute. We didn't even have half chances in between those. One bit of quick thinking from Livermore, and a bit of skill from Grant doesn't erase the rest of the game.
Let's face it, the 'struggling to score and poor football' has become the norm after those opening 4 games. If we have any plans on challenging for the top 2 then we need to be doing more than we're doing. We're not going to keep this up for an entire season, especially when we pick up injuries and suspensions.
Personally, I think the team is a better footballing team than we're showing. I don't consider that 'negative'.
Brace yourself for more appalling games, particularly at the Hawthorns when teams come to slow it down, to defend on mass and to turn it into a scrap.
Can I remind you that we scored four at Cardiff which was three matches ago. If you look at the goal difference we are level with Bournemouth on +12 and only behind Fulham on +13. We have scored 21 goals in 12 games. Only Fulham have bettered that so far. What a struggle!
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There in lies the problem - The only strategy Lai has is trying to sell the club, with as little additional expenditure as possible. But even as a Premier League club he won't be getting his 200m back. VI got the job ultimately because he did a great job on the cheap with Barnsley. Im not sure he would put up with that philosophy moving forwards.
I agree but he seems intent on getting a lot of the 200m back or whatever it was. So i think he will end up staying here sadly. I would love nothing more than for him to sell up in the summer if we go up!
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I'm confused. From posts to this site, about 8 out of 11 of our team are not fit for purpose; yet at the same time when judging the manager a majority thinks we have one of the strongest sides in this league and promotion should be a formality(!?)
As far as I can see we have a squad of reasonable Championship standard (bar Hugill) and players that work hard. Ismael's methods get the best out of a squad of this calibre. I am pleasantly surprised we are 2nd in a league where Fulham, Bournemouth, Stoke and Sheffield Utd have the sort spending power that we cannot expect from our owner. VI will need to vary his tactics perhaps after a couple more additions or introductions from the academy.
Saturday's result was possibly lucky as Hogan and Sunjic missed reasonable chances. On the bright side Molunby looked useful - might collect a few cards though.
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Mr Durham strikes again, Tony Pulis with Towels lol .Maybe hes a bit tender because of his beloved posh not doing very well
https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1100279060?-11200:789
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Mr Durham strikes again, Tony Pulis with Towels lol .Maybe hes a bit tender because of his beloved posh not doing very well
https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1100279060?-11200:789
To some he is probably not too far off......
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Mr Durham strikes again, Tony Pulis with Towels lol .Maybe hes a bit tender because of his beloved posh not doing very well
https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1100279060?-11200:789
Can't argue with any of that.
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Can't argue with any of that.
Really?
'There is no football plan whatsoever with Valerien Ismael'
Weather you love him, hate him, or are somewhere in between, to say he has no plan is just wrong.
Personally, I can't see any comparison between Pulis and Ismael.
Ismael teams go out to try and win games. The style is a proactive, and it's clear we go out with a plan to impose ourselves and our tactics which other teams then try to counter.
Pulis teams are the exact opposite. His teams go out to try not to lose the game, and his tactics are reactive. He allows the opposition to set up how they want and then try's to combat it.
Just to clarify as I'm sure nobody wants this turning in to a Pulis debate, I'm not even talking about whose style is better, more effective or more appealing. Simply that at their core and in the way they set about each match with their approaches you would struggle to find two managers so different based on what I've seen of them both so far.
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Mr Durham strikes again, Tony Pulis with Towels lol .Maybe hes a bit tender because of his beloved posh not doing very well
https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1100279060?-11200:789
Reads name, doesn't bother clicking on baity thing.
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I'm confused. From posts to this site, about 8 out of 11 of our team are not fit for purpose; yet at the same time when judging the manager a majority thinks we have one of the strongest sides in this league and promotion should be a formality(!?)
As far as I can see we have a squad of reasonable Championship standard (bar Hugill) and players that work hard. Ismael's methods get the best out of a squad of this calibre. I am pleasantly surprised we are 2nd in a league where Fulham, Bournemouth, Stoke and Sheffield Utd have the sort spending power that we cannot expect from our owner. VI will need to vary his tactics perhaps after a couple more additions or introductions from the academy.
Saturday's result was possibly lucky as Hogan and Sunjic missed reasonable chances. On the bright side Molunby looked useful - might collect a few cards though.
If you were an alien dropping into this site, it would be reasonable to assume, from scanning regular posts that.
Our owner is rubbish and only in it for his own evil gains
Our recruitment is appalling (has been since Ashworth left)
Our manager is a one trick pony who has been found out
Our squad is imbalanced and poor (especially compared to Fulham and Sheff Utd.)
Our goalie is rubbish
2 of our CH's are rubbish
At least 1 of our wingbacks is rubbish (which one depends on who you ask)
Our captain is rubbish
At least 2 of our strikers are rubbish
Our bench is rubbish.
Makes you wonder how we are doing so well 8) :D ;D
"Where did it all go wrong George?" ;)
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Pulis and Ismael are poles apart..
One sets up not to lose and defends at all costs
The other one goes out to win, press and bully the opposition.
In no way are they comparable
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Really?
'There is no football plan whatsoever with Valerien Ismael'
Weather you love him, hate him, or are somewhere in between, to say he has no plan is just wrong.
Personally, I can't see any comparison between Pulis and Ismael.
Ismael teams go out to try and win games. The style is a proactive, and it's clear we go out with a plan to impose ourselves and our tactics which other teams then try to counter.
Pulis teams are the exact opposite. His teams go out to try not to lose the game, and his tactics are reactive. He allows the opposition to set up how they want and then try's to combat it.
Just to clarify as I'm sure nobody wants this turning in to a Pulis debate, I'm not even talking about whose style is better, more effective or more appealing. Simply that at their core and in the way they set about each match with their approaches you would struggle to find two managers so different based on what I've seen of them both so far.
VI is nothing like the capped one style wise, if fact I would say the exact opposite. However Durham does raise some good points. Adder summed our style up yesterday nicely when he called it 'chaos football', because it is. We sit there hoping a bit of football breaks out and we score, and quite often it does.
He also identified my/our biggest fear insofar as this style will never do well in the Premier, but lets get there first and see what our illustrious owner and chairman have up their sleeves.
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Pulis favours the scrum and general set pieces. Valerian's more of a rolling maul kind of guy with a variety of penalty kicks from hand, up and unders and in your face tackles.
In rugby parlance it would be Union versus League. Two games with similarities that have very little in common beyond the shape of the ball. It's football, just not as Durham would like it. Stuff Durham, he's a self absorbed WUM.
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Pulis favours the scrum and general set pieces. Valerian's more of a rolling maul kind of guy with a variety of penalty kicks from hand, up and unders and in your face tackles.
In rugby parlance it would be Union versus League. Two games with similarities that have very little in common beyond the shape of the ball. It's football, just not as Durham would like it. Stuff Durham, he's a self absorbed WUM.
Great analogy Smethdan, but as I don't get out much these days, because my carers have lost the key to one of me leg irons, could you clarify WUM please?
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Great analogy Smethdan, but as I don't get out much these days, because my carers have lost the key to one of me leg irons, could you clarify WUM please?
Apologies, he's a Wind Up Merchant ;D .
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Pulis favours the scrum and general set pieces. Valerian's more of a rolling maul kind of guy with a variety of penalty kicks from hand, up and unders and in your face tackles.
In rugby parlance it would be Union versus League. Two games with similarities that have very little in common beyond the shape of the ball. It's football, just not as Durham would like it. Stuff Durham, he's a self absorbed WUM.
Agree on Durham, he cant seriously believe that and if he does then he is wrong plain and simple.
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Thanks Smethdan, should have been able to work it out, it was in perfect context, and so very true. Durham just desperate to get responses and trying to be cutting edge. Trouble is all he has shown is his total ignorance of football tactics in general and particularly in WBA. If he cannot see that Pulis and VI are at two opposing ends of the tactical spectrum, then he is totally blind or maybe just a londonchester supporter.
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Bloke's got monocular vision ;) .
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Apologies, he's a Wind Up Merchant ;D .
He absolutely is. The amount of people that pay him any attention is frightening.
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Really enjoyed the part where he said pulis got us promoted. Durham is a ladies downstairs area, but in fairness part of his job is to be incendary, thats whats gets people talking and calling in etc
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Really enjoyed the part where he said pulis got us promoted. Durham is a ladies downstairs area, but in fairness part of his job is to be incendary, thats whats gets people talking and calling in etc
Exactly. Can we stop talking about him now?
Damn it, I've only gone and joined in. >:(
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Really?
'There is no football plan whatsoever with Valerien Ismael'
Weather you love him, hate him, or are somewhere in between, to say he has no plan is just wrong.
Personally, I can't see any comparison between Pulis and Ismael.
Ismael teams go out to try and win games. The style is a proactive, and it's clear we go out with a plan to impose ourselves and our tactics which other teams then try to counter.
Pulis teams are the exact opposite. His teams go out to try not to lose the game, and his tactics are reactive. He allows the opposition to set up how they want and then try's to combat it.
Just to clarify as I'm sure nobody wants this turning in to a Pulis debate, I'm not even talking about whose style is better, more effective or more appealing. Simply that at their core and in the way they set about each match with their approaches you would struggle to find two managers so different based on what I've seen of them both so far.
This is so true Jeff.
Cant really add much except to say that I can agree that sometimes we are not a pretty sight! But for sure VI sets out to win games whereas the other guy simply did not.
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I think we’re getting to the point with the likes of Durham that if you have an opinion even remotely inline with his then you should be worried. He’s a hack whose career revolves around taking the dumbest possible position and tricking people into paying him to have an argument.
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I think we’re getting to the point with the likes of Durham that if you have an opinion even remotely inline with his then you should be worried. He’s a hack whose career revolves around taking the dumbest possible position and tricking people into paying him to have an argument.
I think Valball goes over his head chap ;D .
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I think Valball goes over his head chap ;D .
Goes over most players heads for sure, INCOMING !!!
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I think some people need to understand how talk radio works. The host says something reactive, people phone in at a cost and thats how they make money.
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I never listen to talk carp
It's drivel they're only interested in the top 6 and London and their mates and the people they have on it live in the past
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Just please leave
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Just please leave
I don't think you've thought that through!
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It doesn’t bode well at all at the moment.
The press is great when we do it’, and despite conceding two tonight I don’t think the problem is off the ball. Our problems are on it. If we do better with the ball you automatically solve some of the defensive issues.
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I said it when he arrived having seen Barnsley , the football is dire the majority of the time .
Lumping it , hoofing , long ball ....call it what you like.
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Just please leave
That didn’t take long, two defeats, third in the league.
Sack the manager! Obvious course of action to take.
Never mind top quality like Pereira was given away in the summer.
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We just received £17m for a player we should've got £60m for. I think the top 2 has gone, certainly if we lose at Fulham. We need to get Diangana back.
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That didn’t take long, two defeats, third in the league.
Sack the manager! Obvious course of action to take.
Never mind top quality like Pereira was given away in the summer.
It’s the tactics though. No chance Pereira would have got a game in this system.
Val is not the future. He’s the past.
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We just received £17m for a player we should've got £60m for. I think the top 2 has gone, certainly if we lose at Fulham. We need to get Diangana back.
Long way to go. We've had good and bad games. More bad moments than bad games in my humble.
Val isn't Corberan but I'm certainly not even remotley close to writing him off.
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Pulis never churned out anything that bad.
It’s **** poor.
With a bit of luck Barnsley might be looking for a new manager soon…
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Lost me tonight, stubborn, unwilling to change. Dreadful, dreadful football. Squad being absolutely dreadful doesn't help but not looking like getting better.
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That didn’t take long, two defeats, third in the league.
Sack the manager! Obvious course of action to take.
Never mind top quality like Pereira was given away in the summer.
Missing the obvious , we have 4 or 5 players much better than lumping it forward to nobody . I could stomach going longer to the front three if they looked suited to it but they don't , taking Robinson off when he is our most complete attacker says it all .
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And let us not make out that we’re playing this horrendous style of football because of our budget.
This squad are much better than this current brand of mind-numbing ***** that we’re playing.
This is 100% on the head coach.
Swansea tonight are a great example of a side on a limited budget and they were miles better than us tonight. Miles better in style, application and a damn sight easier on the eye.
Most of the division would give an arm and a leg for our players - yet we set them out like that..
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And let us not make out that we’re playing this horrendous style of football because of our budget.
This squad are much better than this current brand of mind-numbing ***** that we’re playing.
This is 100% on the head coach.
Swansea tonight are a great example of a side on a limited budget and they were miles better than us tonight. Miles better in style, application and a damn sight easier on the eye.
Most of the division would give an arm and a leg for our players - yet we set them out like that..
Word for word in agreement.
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Wasn't just poor tonight we've been poor for a while, not just the manager but also most of this team need a kick up the backside.
Apart from Phillips and Livermore the rest was absolutely garbage.
This so called press has disappeared, we create virtually nothing down the flanks and can we put an end to Furlongs long throws because they're a waste of time.
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No chance this guy will last even half of his contract. Another awful appointment.
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And let us not make out that we’re playing this horrendous style of football because of our budget.
This squad are much better than this current brand of mind-numbing ***** that we’re playing.
This is 100% on the head coach.
Swansea tonight are a great example of a side on a limited budget and they were miles better than us tonight. Miles better in style, application and a damn sight easier on the eye.
Most of the division would give an arm and a leg for our players - yet we set them out like that..
Nail on the head , he won't see January at this rate.
Points over performances won't wash at this level.
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we got the team/squad - we got no coach/tactics - get rid asap
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And let us not make out that we’re playing this horrendous style of football because of our budget.
This squad are much better than this current brand of mind-numbing ***** that we’re playing.
This is 100% on the head coach.
Swansea tonight are a great example of a side on a limited budget and they were miles better than us tonight. Miles better in style, application and a damn sight easier on the eye.
Most of the division would give an arm and a leg for our players - yet we set them out like that..
Are you sure? Mowatt looked like a massive miss tonight. TBH Moumby and Livermore struggled big time and we were out manouvered by their midfield. We looked tired the longer it went and they cashed in.
Plenty of moments for the midfield to show their quality on the ball, and they failed the test.
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Nail on the head , he won't see January at this rate.
Points over performances won't wash at this level.
And some of the fans defending this garbage are the ones who criticised Allardyce (in a better division) and Wilder in the summer for their styles.
This is worse.
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We just received £17m for a player we should've got £60m for. I think the top 2 has gone, certainly if we lose at Fulham. We need to get Diangana back.
Top two was unrealistic as soon as we sold Periera, he is the sort of quality you need to get out of this league automatically; you need a bit of star-dust to stand out from the pack. Fulham have a much stronger squad than us and that will really start to show over the Xmas period when the fixtures stack-up. Bournemouth less so but they are winning for fun.
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It’s the tactics though. No chance Pereira would have got a game in this system.
Val is not the future. He’s the past.
What nonsense, Periera would obviously have walked into this side in any system, and played in one of the wide front three roles; in place of Phillips.
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And some of the fans defending this garbage are the ones who criticised Allardyce (in a better division) and Wilder in the summer for their styles.
This is worse.
2 of our best players were missing in Mowatt and Diangana. That would've made a difference.
You know my thoughts on Livermore, many people still think he has quality at this level, in the big picture I think he looks bang average in this division.
The one thing I'm urging the Manager to do is ditch Hugill because he will never be the answer. In short we don't have the tools to play like Barcelona at this level anymore. That ship sailed when we gave away Pereira.
Bilic'a top 2 achievement / 83pts is looking more rosy with every game.
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And some of the fans defending this garbage are the ones who criticised Allardyce (in a better division) and Wilder in the summer for their styles.
This is worse.
I said when Bilic was sacked and Allardyce appointed the club had taken a massive backwards step. The club is rotten at the core.
We can only hope that we somehow achieve promotion this year and end up with new owners.
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Are you sure? Mowatt looked like a massive miss tonight. TBH Moumby and Livermore struggled big time and we were out manouvered by their midfield. We looked tired the longer it went and they cashed in.
Plenty of moments for the midfield to show their quality on the ball, and they failed the test.
We were out manouvered in midfield because this head coach fails to react to what happens on the pitch.
He’s quite happy to watch Molumby and Livermore get over run and stand there with his pre planned changes.
Tiredness? Swansea played a game on Sunday - we had two days extra rest. If this lot are tired then the head coach needs to review what he did in the summer.
We weren’t tired. We were just over run. And the gaffer just watches it happen.
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Top two was unrealistic as soon as we sold Periera, he is the sort of quality you need to get out of this league automatically; you need a bit of star-dust to stand out from the pack. Fulham have a much stronger squad than us and that will really start to show over the Xmas period when the fixtures stack-up. Bournemouth less so but they are winning for fun.
Pereira for all his ability would have struggled with bingo ball and constant lumping from the back , star dust doesnt get used in tactics like this .
Robinson is our most dangerous attacker yet struggles with tactics , lesser MP if you like . Its drone football that sucks any joy out of it .
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What nonsense, Periera would obviously have walked into this side in any system, and played in one of the wide front three roles; in place of Phillips.
Can you respond to the posts without declaring them as nonsense please?
Not sure how many times it needs to be said.
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And some of the fans defending this garbage are the ones who criticised Allardyce (in a better division) and Wilder in the summer for their styles. This is worse.
There is a world of difference between being annoyed with the performance and result on the one hand and comically calling for the manager to be sacked on the other. I know we were garbage tonight, it's clear to me that the limitations of this team are starting to show; as soon as a little bit of quality like Mowatt and Grady are out we look what we are, ordinary.
Nobody can say with any logic that the team has underperformed so far, if anything they have done well to get to 25 points in the first 13 games. Sacking the manager would be futile; and a repeat of what we keep doing over the last two years, underspending, over-expecting and then sacking managers. Amazes me that more of the fan base haven't cottoned on yet. If the board were serious about promotion they would have kept Pereira. That simple really.
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I said when Bilic was sacked and Allardyce appointed the club had taken a massive backwards step. The club is rotten at the core.
We can only hope that we somehow achieve promotion this year and end up with new owners.
Fully agree. It's even more of a circus act now as the squad is even weaker than the one that had no chance of top flight survival last season.
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Absolutly shocking,
Start of the season, people were dubbing him 'you score 3, we score 4' type of manager. For whatever reason its just not clicking. We needed to go out that second half and control the game, a third centre midfielder would have contributed massively to us seeing out the game. This needs to be something he looks at over the next few games.
Hes very stubborn in changing his game plan and that really scares me.
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And the worse bit is we even had to pay good money for him
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Seems this is happening every week with our midfield getting run over Blues bossed our midfield Friday night and we were looking to get result. With his inability to change his system and approach think automatic promotion will be out of our reach.
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And some of the fans defending this garbage are the ones who criticised Allardyce (in a better division) and Wilder in the summer for their styles.
This is worse.
Missed the 2bd half, had a footy match. Was it as bad as it sounds?
No way this guy will last 4 years if he can't change a game
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Pereira for all his ability would have struggled with bingo ball and constant lumping from the back , star dust doesnt get used in tactics like this. Robinson is our most dangerous attacker yet struggles with tactics , lesser MP if you like . Its drone football that sucks any joy out of it .
Yeah, but having players like Pereira would also allow the team to play through the pitch when in possession and link the team together properly. He was a great player so obviously is a massive miss, regardless of the set-up.
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Missed the 2bd half, had a footy match. Was it as bad as it sounds?
No way this guy will last 4 years if he can't change a game
In short yes. Swansea ran riot; we looked awful with Hugil on and with Mowatt out; horror show. Furlong in particularly, was impressively bad. Most professional footballers would have struggled to make that many mistakes had they been trying to.
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In my years watching football at any level I cannot recall a team actually passing the ball back to its goalkeeper from the kick off so that he can launch it down the pitch .
I have an uneasy feeling about this lot that I cannot shake .
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Manager needs to be more flexible in his style and the changes he makes. Todays subs were pants. The press has disappeared so is that down to his doing or are the players ignoring him?
Plenty of changes he could make. He could take one of the front 3 out and get us more control in midfield. He could go back 4 and do a 3 in central mid. Swansea pressed us far better than we did to them.
I think he has a naff squad as bad as we have had at this level for 20 years. We have some players who came for big money grant etc but whether they were worth the money is another question. He wasnt backed in window and i doubt he will get backed if we some how got up. Its a lose lose until the owners sort it out. We cannot axe managers every 6 months
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Yeah, but having players like Pereira would also allow the team to play through the pitch when in possession and link the team together properly. He was a great player so obviously is a massive miss, regardless of the set-up.
Val doesn't play through the middle , never has as far as I'm aware . I often feel we don't make the most of Mowett although not comparing him to MP .
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And let us not make out that we’re playing this horrendous style of football because of our budget.
This squad are much better than this current brand of mind-numbing ***** that we’re playing.
This is 100% on the head coach.
Swansea tonight are a great example of a side on a limited budget and they were miles better than us tonight. Miles better in style, application and a damn sight easier on the eye.
Most of the division would give an arm and a leg for our players - yet we set them out like that..
Bang on. Couldn't agree more.
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And let us not make out that we’re playing this horrendous style of football because of our budget.
This squad are much better than this current brand of mind-numbing ***** that we’re playing.
This is 100% on the head coach.
Swansea tonight are a great example of a side on a limited budget and they were miles better than us tonight. Miles better in style, application and a damn sight easier on the eye.
Most of the division would give an arm and a leg for our players - yet we set them out like that..
Of course the style is down to the head coach, unfortunately the club bought in to his philosophy and are not going to change any time soon.
I don’t like the style of football however I see little point in moaning about it as it is not going to change.
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In short yes. Swansea ran riot; we looked awful with Hugil on and with Mowatt out; horror show. Furlong in particularly, was impressively bad. Most professional footballers would have struggled to make that many mistakes had they been trying to.
Why was Hugill brought on?!?!
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Lai better have had the bloody common sense to have limited to this bloke to a 1 year compo payout if it all went tits up.
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2 of our best players were missing in Mowatt and Diangana. That would've made a difference.
You know my thoughts on Livermore, many people still think he has quality at this level, in the big picture I think he looks bang average in this division.
The one thing I'm urging the Manager to do is ditch Hugill because he will never be the answer. In short we don't have the tools to play like Barcelona at this level anymore. That ship sailed when we gave away Pereira.
Bilic'a top 2 achievement / 83pts is looking more rosy with every game.
Mowatt and Diangana would have been useful but I’m not sure either would have massively influenced the game.
Mowatt would still have been over run - as he and Livermore have in previous games.
Diangana would still be having to try and control the ball at head height or at least chase a channel.
Our issues relate to our set up - granted, some of the personnel can be improved but they’re capable of more than they’re showing.
Supporters would be far more receptive to Ismael if we didn’t treat the ball like a hot potato. There is no reason why we cannot get the ball down at feet and play through the pitch as Swansea did tonight.
Fans would get behind that wholeheartedly - and they wouldn’t be so quick to voice disapproval after a game. If you can see what the club is trying to do it’s easier to get behind. I’m not sure what we’re trying to do..
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I don’t like the style of football however I see little point in moaning about it as it is not going to change.
We may as well shut the forum down then..
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Val doesn't play through the middle , never has as far as I'm aware . I often feel we don't make the most of Mowett although not comparing him to MP .
We play with a high press which is good, I used to hate us playing with a low block all the time.
I don't see our central defenders just lumping it, there is transition through midfield. However, I even said it prior to Stoke how many goal chances have been created from central positions, not many I'll tell you. Mowatt has already scored 2 worldies. How many defence splitting passes are made by Livermore?
We don't have the personnel to.play like Swansea. Criticise Ismael for not replacing Livermore in the Summer if you want? He is not alone but the biggest problem in how we are playing.
Maybe it has to be Snodgrass forming a central 3? Then you have to bench one of Phillips, Grant, Robinson, neither one deserves to be a sub. This problem is compounded when Grady is back.
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Lai better have had the bloody common sense to have limited to this bloke to a 1 year compo payout if it all went tits up.
I very much doubt it, the club is run by people who have little to no idea what they are doing.
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We play with a high press which is good, I used to hate us playing with a low block all the time.
I don't see our central defenders just lumping it, there is transition through midfield. However, I even said it prior to Stoke how many goal chances have been created from central positions, not many I'll tell you. Mowatt has already scored 2 worldies. How many defence splitting passes are made by Livermore?
We don't have the personnel to.play like Swansea. Criticise Ismael for not replacing Livermore in the Summer if you want? He is not alone but the biggest problem in how we are playing.
Maybe it has to be Snodgrass forming a central 3? Then you have to bench one of Phillips, Grant, Robinson, neither one deserves to be a sub. This problem is compounded when Grady is back.
Mate , we've just had four games of Bartley , Semi and even Clarke lumping into the wings . Bloody rugby tactics.
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We may as well shut the forum down then..
If it makes you feel better carry on.
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I very much doubt it, the club is run by people who have little to no idea what they are doing.
I think you are right. I dread to think what state Lai will leave this club in should he ever depart.
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Mate , we've just had four games of Bartley , Semi and even Clarke lumping into the wings . Bloody rugby tactics.
And that press is non existent and has been for weeks - aside from a minute or two in the first half today.
The one redeeming feature to this style and we’re not even doing that.
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I think you are right. I dread to think what state Lai will leave this club in should he ever depart.
My guess is that we will soon become a run of the mill mid table championship side. Pretty much what Jeremy Peace said we were.
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My guess is that we will soon become a run of the mill mid table championship side. Pretty much what Jeremy Peace said we were.
If you aim for it, don't be surprised when you get it.
Lai is reducing this club to less and less every year he is here due to his absolute neglect and lack of care.
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Pulis never churned out anything that bad.
It’s **** poor.
With a bit of luck Barnsley might be looking for a new manager soon…
Pulis absolutely did though.
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If you aim for it, don't be surprised when you get it.
Lai is reducing this club to less and less every year he is here due to his absolute neglect and lack of care.
I agree. Fans who suggest they would not want to be promoted with this style of play would soon be moaning when we become a Birmingham City.
The financial benefit even if you finish bottom next season is a far better option than treading water in the championship.
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Mowatt and Diangana would have been useful but I’m not sure either would have massively influenced the game.
Mowatt would still have been over run - as he and Livermore have in previous games.
Diangana would still be having to try and control the ball at head height or at least chase a channel.
Our issues relate to our set up - granted, some of the personnel can be improved but they’re capable of more than they’re showing.
Supporters would be far more receptive to Ismael if we didn’t treat the ball like a hot potato. There is no reason why we cannot get the ball down at feet and play through the pitch as Swansea did tonight.
Fans would get behind that wholeheartedly - and they wouldn’t be so quick to voice disapproval after a game. If you can see what the club is trying to do it’s easier to get behind. I’m not sure what we’re trying to do..
Anybody would think we were like the 1980s Wimbledon. It's not like this at all. We murdered Derby had 25 attempts but unluckily drew 0-0. We have played good football this season at times, SU at home for instance.
Sometimes the opponent is better on the day. In general if you haven't got the players to play a silky style then what can the Manager do? In the 1990s we had brilliant strikers in Hunt and Taylor but then men behind them were awful - Coldicott, Darby, Flynn, Hamilton etc. Often we went long ball, as the midfield turned over possession. If we signed De Bruyne now, Ismael wouldn't get him to lump it.
So for the critics what can Ismael do now to turn this around? Because its no good just moaning without a coherent plan.
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I agree. Fans who suggest they would not want to be promoted with this style of play would soon be moaning when we become a Birmingham City.
The financial benefit even if you finish bottom next season is a far better option than treading water in the championship.
Spot on. 100m+ next year would have done us the world of good.
I don't think Lai will spend in January either and that will be the nail in the WBA coffin for quite some time.
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What has this bloke said tonight in his presser anyone know?
Something about the front 3 not working and we will not change our style no matter that it was found out months ago?
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Mate , we've just had four games of Bartley , Semi and even Clarke lumping into the wings . Bloody rugby tactics.
So are you going to call out particularly Livermore and to a lesser extent Molumby and Mowatt. Because its their job to link the play. If they can't do it then how is that on the Manager?
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Val reckons we lost control don’t know what game he was watching my thoughts are that in first half we dragged Swansea down to our level and in second they pulled themselves out and dominated us. Davis and Andrews made great points, last season Ishmael had 5 substitutions at his disposal with a younger squad and why didn’t he adjust his high line when it became obvious that Swansea could breach it. Pundits and fans can see the problems why can’t Coach?
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So are you going to call out particularly Livermore and to a lesser extent Molumby and Mowatt. Because its their job to link the play. If they can't do it then how is that on the Manager?
Val doesnt go through the middle ......never has.
Watch how many times we try to hit the wings or final third with hopeful balls . Thats his style.
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What has this bloke said tonight in his presser anyone know?
Something about the front 3 not working
He's right. I said this in the after match debate. If you are going to press it starts with the front three. If they don't do it properly you have a big problem because teams can easily get at you and get disjointed.
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Too many posts for me to respond to individually. General point. This squad's crying out for an incisive, quick passing 433. Sorry to interrupt the meltdown by the way. Please continue ;D .
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He's right. I said this in the after match debate. If you are going to press it starts with the front three. If they don't do it properly you have a big problem because teams can easily get at you and get disjointed.
VI at the time said he was happy with our attacking options with the addition of Hugill. He should have pressed and pressed the board then that we needed a proper CF.
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Strange thing is I like most things about Val and what he's done so far except the actual football side of things .
Pulis in the Premier against top draw players is one thing , this against a skint league of workers is quite the other .
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We could play round the teams at this level. I don't think VI knows how too though. I struggle to accept a manager that cannot counter any another teams tactics in a game.
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VI at the time said he was happy with our attacking options with the addition of Hugill. He should have pressed and pressed the board then that we needed a proper CF.
He may have privately with an eye to being professional and not slagging the board publicly in contrast to his predecessor. I wonder.
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After a great start we just go worse and worse with the second half showing abysmal against an ok team but nothing more.
What's happened to our so called tactics didn't see much of VAl ball there yet again and we've hardly seen it much since the opening few games.
Players lost faith in it ?
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He's right. I said this in the after match debate. If you are going to press it starts with the front three. If they don't do it properly you have a big problem because teams can easily get at you and get disjointed.
If you have a problem with the press then surely it is common sense for the whole team to concede 20 yards or so. Instead we had a high line with no pressure on the ball. Recipe for disaster.
The persistence in continuing with something that wasnt working is naivety of the highest order.
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They would love to have him back
https://barnsleyfc.org.uk/threads/valerien-ismael.301435/
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He may have privately with an eye to being professional and not slagging the board publicly in contrast to his predecessor. I wonder.
He's only got himself to blame then. No time for yes men, nodding dogs or the like.
He might have secured himself a nice, lengthy contract here but if its at the expense of Albion (not just financially) then he can move on swiftly for me.
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Anybody would think we were like the 1980s Wimbledon. It's not like this at all. We murdered Derby had 25 attempts but unluckily drew 0-0. We have played good football this season at times, SU at home for instance.
Sometimes the opponent is better on the day. In general if you haven't got the players to play a silky style then what can the Manager do? In the 1990s we had brilliant strikers in Hunt and Taylor but then men behind them were awful - Coldicott, Darby, Flynn, Hamilton etc. Often we went long ball, as the midfield turned over possession. If we signed De Bruyne now, Ismael wouldn't get him to lump it.
So for the critics what can Ismael do now to turn this around? Because its no good just moaning without a coherent plan.
We don't have the players to play a silky style because the manager doesn't want them. In his own words, he doesn't need the best players, he needs the right players for the system. We prioritised hard workers over footballers because that's what Ismael wanted. He said he was happy with the signings and his squad. The style is on him, and whilst I like him and want him to do well, he's is looking more and more a one trick pony each passing week. We could have numerous ball playing footballers at our disposal, but none of them would get a game. We had one who was nominated in team of the year the last time we were in the division and we sent him out on loan to Stoke.
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https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/10/20/valerien-ismael-disappointed-with-west-brom-defeat/
"My expectation is that we come quickly into the final third and that we push the line high and have an aggressive defence so that the opponent cannot push out of pressure. We didn’t make it well, and it’s the reason Swansea came back in the game and they started better in the second half.
"You need to find a way to stay compact and organised."
Train the shape into them then. That high line tonight was begging to be punished. Called it within 5 mins of the game starting.
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Val doesnt go through the middle ......never has.
Watch how many times we try to hit the wings or final third with hopeful balls . Thats his style.
It's not that simplistic otherwise he'd sign Johan Blake and Usain Bolt to play centre mid and ignore any notion of footballing skill in that area!
The point is Livermore is vastly overrated by most of our fans. He is the elephant in the room.
You can't just pin all the blame on the Manager IMO.
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It's not that simplistic otherwise he'd sign Johan Blake and Usain Bolt to play centre mid and ignore any notion of footballing skill in that area!
The point is Livermore is vastly overrated by most of our fans. He is the elephant in the room.
You can't just pin all the blame on the Manager IMO.
never rated Livermore offers nothing in most games he plays and will blame manager who continues to pick him.
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We don't have the players to play a silky style because the manager doesn't want them. In his own words, he doesn't need the best players, he needs the right players for the system. We prioritised hard workers over footballers because that's what Ismael wanted. He said he was happy with the signings and his squad. The style is on him, and whilst I like him and want him to do well, he's is looking more and more a one trick pony each passing week. We could have numerous ball playing footballers at our disposal, but none of them would get a game. We had one who was nominated in team of the year the last time we were in the division and we sent him out on loan to Stoke.
Getting Barnsley inside the Top 6 last season on their budget was a fantastic achievement.
Similarly Bilic getting us promoted in 2nd was a great achievement, and also might I add playing football in the style Albion fans like to see. Shame on the majority then they thought it right to go for Big Sam and play in the exact style we are using now.
Very few seem to criticise the central midfield yet that is the exact area that's not functioning in terms of passing the ball. I repeat Livermore cannot pass a football accurately over 10 yards. Yet its Ismael's fault?
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The way we played under Big Sam was better than this.
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It's not that simplistic otherwise he'd sign Johan Blake and Usain Bolt to play centre mid and ignore any notion of footballing skill in that area!
The point is Livermore is vastly overrated by most of our fans. He is the elephant in the room.
You can't just pin all the blame on the Manager IMO.
He isn’t. Most of our fans have the same opinion as you on Livermore. Most accept he has deficiencies to his game.
But we do not play this way because he’s in the team. We play this way because this is what the manager wants
Our last manager in this division managed to create a successful footballing team (in parts) with Livermore in it. That was passing through midfield.
The issue is that Ismael’s sides require combativeness and intensity over quality in the middle of the pitch. The idea is get it forward quickly bypassing the midfield.
If VI wanted good technical footballers he’d have kept Sawyers. He didn’t, because quality in that area of the pitch is redundant for his style.
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He isn’t. Most of our fans have the same opinion as you on Livermore. Most accept he has deficiencies to his game.
But we do not play this way because he’s in the team. We play this way because this is what the manager wants
Our last manager in this division managed to create a successful footballing team (in parts) with Livermore in it. That was passing through midfield.
The issue is that Ismael’s sides require combativeness and intensity over quality in the middle of the pitch. The idea is get it forward quickly bypassing the midfield.
If VI wanted good technical footballers he’d have kept Sawyers. He didn’t, because quality in that area of the pitch is redundant for his style.
You know why we were so good last time under Bilic, it was because we had a footballing technician on a very high level, that even excelled last season in a very poor team. He was 10/10 last season,almost perfection.
Livermore (and others) are getting found out for their true level. This man Ismael is a good football manager, Barnsley proves it. If the fans wanted to uphold the true footballing culture of WBA, we'd have never gone for SA (plus Dingle connections). We are moaning about style of play now, yet abandoned all principles with the SA appointment.
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The way we played under Big Sam was better than this.
No it was not. - not these players anyway
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No it was not. - not these players anyway
This is the worst football I've seen in years. Don't get me wrong if it works and is effective I don't care but it's been limping along for months now. He's been found out and has no answer.
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You know why we were so good last time under Bilic, it was because we had a footballing technician on a very high level, that even excelled last season in a very poor team. He was 10/10 last season,almost perfection.
Livermore (and others) are getting found out for their true level. This man Ismael is a good football manager, Barnsley proves it. If the fans wanted to uphold the true footballing culture of WBA, we'd have never gone for SA (plus Dingle connections). We are moaning about style of play now, yet abandoned all principles with the SA appointment.
A good football manager will adapt to what is happening on the pitch. Thus far for whatever reason he has chosen not to. These players are not perfect but they are capable of more than this. Livermore should have been replaced, but the manager likes him. He knows he can't play a defence splitting pass, but he doesn't care because he runs around a lot. These are all his decisions and he is rightly being called out for them. It's still early days and he has time on his hands but there's some seriously worrying signs currently.
Swansea quickly adapted tonight after a terrible start and found a way of hurting us with diagonal balls to beat the high line. There were so many warnings signs that their attacker was going to get in on goal and we did nothing.
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It's not that simplistic otherwise he'd sign Johan Blake and Usain Bolt to play centre mid and ignore any notion of footballing skill in that area!
The point is Livermore is vastly overrated by most of our fans. He is the elephant in the room.
You can't just pin all the blame on the Manager IMO.
One bloke sets us out like this , one bloke keeps picking the same players . The same bloke won't change tactics and the knocking up the sides comes from one bloke. When its good and we put 3 passes of intent together I'll praise Val, most of this season its been dull at best for me.
As I posted elsewhere I think we haven't seen what Mowett is really capable of as the ball misses his feet too much for my liking .
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Dowling warned against this appointment, and sadly for us his opinion was correct. i never ever thought that our squad was suitable for Ismael's style, and he has only added workhouses to the group. I dread to think where the people running my club will take us next.
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Who would you rather have as Head Coach?
Slaven Bilic? Sam Allardyce? Valerian Ismael?
Many posters on this site at very fickle.
Win the next couple of games and Ismael will be the greatest thing since McDonalds invented the Sausage and Egg McMuffin!
Perhaps someone should start an ‘Ishmael Out’ campaign and sit blocking the M5 access roads as a mark of protest.
😜
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VI was never our main target, but in the end he was given the role, I guess because he did a good job with a very limited budget at Barnsley. This is NOT a good reason to offer a man a job. Did anyone in the board room take into account the type of player he had, and what type of player we have? Too many managers only have a Plan A, and VI is one of them. If you don't adapt you will get stiffled, as we have seen in recent games. And his comment about not needing quality but rather the 'right type' of player is odd to say the least. This is akin to buying an F1 team and putting me behind the wheel. Yes I can drive, but not at that level. I fear this will end badly, some time early in the new year if VI doesn't change. My grandson (18 months) has just learnt that square pegs don't go into round holes - Lets hope VI does very soon.
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VI was never our main target, but in the end he was given the role, I guess because he did a good job with a very limited budget at Barnsley. This is NOT a good reason to offer a man a job. Did anyone in the board room take into account the type of player he had, and what type of player we have? Too many managers only have a Plan A, and VI is one of them. If you don't adapt you will get stiffled, as we have seen in recent games. And his comment about not needing quality but rather the 'right type' of player is odd to say the least. This is akin to buying an F1 team and putting me behind the wheel. Yes I can drive, but not at that level. I fear this will end badly, some time early in the new year if VI doesn't change. My grandson (18 months) has just learnt that square pegs don't go into round holes - Lets hope VI does very soon.
So who was our main target?
On your second point this happened when we appointed Allardyce as well which just goes to show how little our esteemed leader and board know about football.
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Our last 8 games have seen us pick up 12 points, mainly against poor lower league opposition. Thats mid table form at best. I'm not being big headed when i say this squad should be comfortably top 2. I think Fulham and Bournemouth are favourites to go up, and then its a complete lottery after that. These players are being let down by VI with his insistence on this horrible playing style. Would any similar manager go into Liverpool and try the same thing, to completely change the style of football away from what suits the squad to something totally different? VI needs to adapt, not the players.
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He is too rigid in his plan. He seems to be unable to change the system according to how the game is going.
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He is too rigid in his plan. He seems to be unable to change the system according to how the game is going.
And now everyone has worked out the plan. Now we will.fund out what he is made of.
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If you have a problem with the press then surely it is common sense for the whole team to concede 20 yards or so. Instead we had a high line with no pressure on the ball. Recipe for disaster.
The persistence in continuing with something that wasnt working is naivety of the highest order.
That's what a number of modern day head coaches do including Guardiola. Their plan B is to make plan A better. It may be stubborn but it isn't necessarily naive.
Val has his way of playing and he won't be changing it. You can see why he said he didn't want the "best" players he needs the "right" players. Unfortunately he doesn't have them in certain areas.
This isn't a short term process.
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Very much a long term project. Signed a 4 year contract and paid £2.5mil for him.
Crazy decision by those in charge.
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Very much a long term project. Signed a 4 year contract and paid £2.5mil for him.
Crazy decision by those in charge.
Thing is we don't have the money for a long term project
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Here we go again.
On the managers back again just like Albion fans do when things Don't go to plan.
Carry on this way and we'll be worse than the Newcastle fans !!!
The blame should not be aimed at the manager.
The club spent zero in the last transfer window and released a load of players. We pulled in a couple of loans and free transfers but basically for a club like us , that was not good enough.
We are one of the biggest clubs in the championship so we should start acting that way when we do our transfer dealings. Its no good going for the likes of Hugill, we should be looking at the top strikers in the championship and league 1.
I think we are not doing that because the hierarchy do not want to spend money. We have probably got one of the smallest capable squads in the division. That showed last night when we made 3 subs in the second half and we brought on Hugill ( one of the worst strikers this club has ever seen), Snodgrass ( a mid 30's past it midfielder) and Reach ( a free from a club relegated from the championship). Not exactly game changing players !!!
Then you have got to look at the players. Ismael can't be blamed for the terrible pass from Furlong which resulted in one of the Swansea goals.
Also lets face facts, we were struggling to get a manager last time probably because of our poor record of sacking managers in the past. A record that is on a par with Sunderland and look what happened to them.
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You can't seriously believe we have one of the smallest, capable squads in this division?
Yes, we haven't spent much, but I don't think that's the issue. Our issue is the tactics, they've been found out and teams are combatting them. Sure, sometimes it still works, but all too often we're left just hitting up and unders and hoping we pick up the second ball. That's all our tactics are.
Add to that the manager doesn't have a plan B, isn't interested in one, has predefined subs and won't react to the opposition in any way, then *that's* why the manager is getting flack.
A team of..
SJ
Furlong Clarke Bartley Townsend
Phillips Mowatt Livermore Diangana
Robinson Grant
while having weak spots is stronger than all but 1 or 2 clubs in this division.
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Baggiesmart - you say 'here we go again, blaming the manager', but who else is responsible for team selection, tactics and substitutions? Its fine blaming the club for not spending, but we have no money apparently and WBA do not do borrowing.
With Pulis you knew what the plan was, with Allardyce you knew what the plan was. I don't know about you but I have no real idea what VI's plan is other than swarm the opposition in their own half and hoof the ball up from the back. Given that option A of the club spending loads of money is off the table, what's your solution to this shambolic fare we are witnessing on a regular basis?
Oh, and I would not want to meet Snodgrass down a dark alley and tell him he is 'past it'....
The last few performances sit firmly with VI, no one else.
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You can't seriously believe we have one of the smallest, capable squads in this division?
Yes, we haven't spent much, but I don't think that's the issue. Our issue is the tactics, they've been found out and teams are combatting them. Sure, sometimes it still works, but all too often we're left just hitting up and unders and hoping we pick up the second ball. That's all our tactics are.
Add to that the manager doesn't have a plan B, isn't interested in one, has predefined subs and won't react to the opposition in any way, then *that's* why the manager is getting flack.
A team of..
SJ
Furlong Clarke Bartley Townsend
Phillips Mowatt Livermore Diangana
Robinson Grant
while having weak spots is stronger than all but 1 or 2 clubs in this division.
No longer is a football clubs performance determined by their starting 11, its about a squad.
Yes I agree its one of the best starting 11 in the division but after those 11 players we haven't got much else.
What happens when you get injuries and suspensions or when you want to change a game by bringing on match changing subs, we can't accomodate that . Your season is determined by the strength of your squad rather than the strength of your starting 11.
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Baggiesmart - you say 'here we go again, blaming the manager', but who else is responsible for team selection, tactics and substitutions? Its fine blaming the club for not spending, but we have no money apparently and WBA do not do borrowing.
With Pulis you knew what the plan was, with Allardyce you knew what the plan was. I don't know about you but I have no real idea what VI's plan is other than swarm the opposition in their own half and hoof the ball up from the back. Given that option A of the club spending loads of money is off the table, what's your solution to this shambolic fare we are witnessing on a regular basis?
Oh, and I would not want to meet Snodgrass down a dark alley and tell him he is 'past it'....
The last few performances sit firmly with VI, no one else.
Today's football is all about money nothing else. Why are Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd always at the top of the table because they spend money. I wouldn't say those 4 managers are the best in the league.
We can't compete with those big hitters but we should be the championship equivalent of those teams. We have just been relegated from the premiership, we just sold our best player for £17 million, we have just got rid of nearly 15 players off the payroll. Financially we are probably better off than most teams in the division but when we go into the transfer market we are acting like something from Oliver Twist, surviving on the scraps nobody else wants like Hugill and Reach.
If we are pleading that we have no money perhaps we should be asking where has it gone !!! We were in the premiership for 9 years without really spending loads of money.
Perhaps Ismael plays those tactics because the players aren't capable of anything else. Oh and by the way I didn't hear many people complaining about his tactics after about 4 or 5 games.
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Seen a few people saying that we don't have the players to play the system which I agree with, surely though it is then down to the manager to adapt his tactics to suit the players not just keep playing one way where its clear they don't suit
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Today's football is all about money nothing else. Why are Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd always at the top of the table because they spend money. I wouldn't say those 4 managers are the best in the league.
We can't compete with those big hitters but we should be the championship equivalent of those teams. We have just been relegated from the premiership, we just sold our best player for £17 million, we have just got rid of nearly 15 players off the payroll. Financially we are probably better off than most teams in the division but when we go into the transfer market we are acting like something from Oliver Twist, surviving on the scraps nobody else wants like Hugill and Reach.
If we are pleading that we have no money perhaps we should be asking where has it gone !!! We were in the premiership for 9 years without really spending loads of money.
Perhaps Ismael plays those tactics because the players aren't capable of anything else. Oh and by the way I didn't hear many people complaining about his tactics after about 4 or 5 games.
Last night's tactics were unrecognisable from those of the first 4 or 5 games. Whilst the high line remains, the press has gone, which means we are vulnerable to the ball over the top, but are not pressurising their defence, which makes it easier for them to carry out, said ball over the top. You can't have one without the other. If we are not committed to the press then we can't keep such a high line, that's basics for me.
I agree we have deficiencies in the squad and recruitment was poor but, IMO, Ish is no longer getting the best out of this group. If his system doesn't suit them, for whatever reason, he has to adapt. None of Grant, Furlong or Livermore etc. will get the sack if he fails, he will, so blaming the players is moot. To be fair, I think he was trying to tweak things slightly, as a reaction to Milwall and Derby etc. but has now got himself into a muddle with some sort of monstrous hybrid. Hopefully, last night was the pinnacle of how poor we can be and we will get back to basics in training.
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Seen a few people saying that we don't have the players to play the system which I agree with, surely though it is then down to the manager to adapt his tactics to suit the players not just keep playing one way where its clear they don't suit
depends on the Manager, Klopp is the classic example of someone who will force players to play his way rather than manage around their weaknesses.
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Think the players he consistently uses look dead on their feet at the minute especially our front three Robinson seems to be running in treacle granted balls flying over his head didn’t help.
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No longer is a football clubs performance determined by their starting 11, its about a squad.
Yes I agree its one of the best starting 11 in the division but after those 11 players we haven't got much else.
What happens when you get injuries and suspensions or when you want to change a game by bringing on match changing subs, we can't accomodate that . Your season is determined by the strength of your squad rather than the strength of your starting 11.
Ok, add the squad to it - it doesn't change much unless you think there's twenty-odd teams in the Championship who have AMAZING benches. I'm pretty sure Peterbrough's bench is going to be quite poor in relation to their first choice team.
The reason I listed that team because, on paper, there's nothing wrong with it. Defence has errors in it but we're pretty strong all over the pitch there and I'd expect us to give every other team in the division a tough game with that lineup and just 'normal' tactics.
What we're doing is allowing Val to drag the attributes of the squad down towards midtable level. He's not getting the best out of the players in my opinion. While his tactics worked early on, and will no doubt come good in a few more games, on the whole it's making football look like a very difficult game.
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Think the players he consistently uses look dead on their feet at the minute especially our front three Robinson seems to be running in treacle granted balls flying over his head didn’t help.
Think Furlong has played every game. May be the reason he looked like a zombie last night.
That's the problem with pre-defined subs, sometimes you need to react to performance. If he had pulled Furlong last night, we may not have lost, we may also have seen that we have a viable young alternative on the bench.
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Today's football is all about money nothing else. Why are Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and Man Utd always at the top of the table because they spend money. I wouldn't say those 4 managers are the best in the league.
We can't compete with those big hitters but we should be the championship equivalent of those teams. We have just been relegated from the premiership, we just sold our best player for £17 million, we have just got rid of nearly 15 players off the payroll. Financially we are probably better off than most teams in the division but when we go into the transfer market we are acting like something from Oliver Twist, surviving on the scraps nobody else wants like Hugill and Reach.
If we are pleading that we have no money perhaps we should be asking where has it gone !!! We were in the premiership for 9 years without really spending loads of money.
Perhaps Ismael plays those tactics because the players aren't capable of anything else. Oh and by the way I didn't hear many people complaining about his tactics after about 4 or 5 games.
There has been much speculation in the past about this. My basic take on it is that Williams and Pulis spent it like they were lottery winners, Jenkins came in, identified the issue and shored up the finances, then left. I am not going to drill down to the exact figures but I imagine that the majority goes on club wages, and what's left [if there is any] either buys the tea club biscuits, or it may go 'elsewhere' ;)
'The money was just resting in my account'
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For my personal interests, Val is suffering a bit from us having Pulis, Pardew and Allardyce as managers within the last few years.
Ask most football fans in the top two leagues who would be in their top 5 managers who they wouldnt want for football entertainment and those 3 would probably feature, we didnt just have 1, we had all 3!
The Pulis years really sucked the enjoyment out of going the Albion for me, it was effective to a point but football is supposed to have some form of entertainment. The Pardew era was just embarrassing and we got Allardyce and for one reason or another never even got to see the benefits of his football, we were caught in between most of the time which made things even worse.
I think if we hadnt had those three managers i may feel different to the way Val goes about things, but as a football fan i would like some enjoyment back at games, we have been and done it with nothing matters but the result, to me there has to be something more, especially at this level.
The early signs were good under Val but once teams sussed us out, they were always going to change against us, on paper we have a very strong championship squad, players such as Furlong, Ajayi, Bartley were getting us promoted a couple of years ago, the likes of Phillips, Snodgrass and Livermore have spent large periods of their career in the premier league, Mowatt was in the team of the year last year i think, Grant scored 24 goals two seasons ago, Robinson earnt himself a £5m million to the prem due to his championship form, Townsend has probably been our most improved player the last two years and two years ago, Grady looked far too good for this level, and we have Englands number two keeper!
Now a lot of those wont be / may not be good enough for the premier league but for where are now, they are better than most, we are newly relegated so teams once they saw how we played wasnt going to bend over backwards to help.
Since the Peterboro game, we do seem to rely on a moment of brilliance to bail us out, its a shame because on the very few occasions we have tried to play with some flair and creativity, we have looked good.
The players do seem to be under instructions as soon as they get the ball to move it on, thats fine as a main approach but it doesnt have to be every time, i am not a fan of passing for the sake of it but there is nothing wrong with passing the ball, trying to lure the opposition out and playing through them from time to time, as well as the more direct approach, give them something to think about because at the moment every team knows how we will play, opposition managers before games even say they know what to expect.
I dont want Val sacked or anything like that, we cant keep doing that, i do expect us to finish around the top 6 because i think we will bully enough teams to get us there, and if we go up, i dont think the owners will really care what style we play.
The commentator said last night Val played this way in his last game for Wolfsburg and left the ground smiling as he knew that was his way forward, and apparently he has said we are only playing at 70% of how he wants us to play at the moment, reading some of the Barnsley fans thoughts, they have said the style doesnt change regardless of the players (and they love Val) so we may sign players who are more suited to it and get better at it, but Val Ball is here to stay.
I expect us to bully our way through the season and get results as we go but as a spectacle i would like to see some moments of play which has flair, skill and creativity (not all the time i know its not realistic) but how we play now just doesnt grab my interest, after not going the games for a 18 months i was buzzing to get back in the ground but already my interest is waning and its starting to feel like a chore again.
Thats just my personal view as i am losing interest in football in general, it doesnt help that our prize for going up is to go and make the numbers up in the league above, thats not the Albions fault, thats just the reality of our position (and same as many others Burnley, Watford, Norwich, etc)
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People of a certain age will remember when we used to sing.
Poor old "anybody", cant play football.
This aint fooball, this is **** all
Very apt today I feel, and down to VI.
Our squad is not very good and has no gifted players, but they can play better football than this garbage.
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https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/10/20/valerien-ismael-disappointed-with-west-brom-defeat/ "My expectation is that we come quickly into the final third and that we push the line high and have an aggressive defence so that the opponent cannot push out of pressure. We didn’t make it well, and it’s the reason Swansea came back in the game and they started better in the second half."You need to find a way to stay compact and organised."
I think VI analysis is broadly correct, Swansea had all the time in the world to pick the ball up around the half-way line and to launch it in-behind our defence, second half we failed to close them down and failed to press them to stop them picking their balls over the top. This was particularly the case down our right hand side where Furlong and Phillips were terrible.
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The way we played under Big Sam was better than this.
Not the collection of games at the start when we lost four or five games with a consecutive scoreline of 25-0 or something. Then we got our act together a little after we signed better players in January. This current team however is far inferior to the resources that Big Sam had to choose from. That was clear last night, you could see how ordinary we looked as soon as Mowat was not playing.
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And some of the fans defending this garbage are the ones who criticised Allardyce (in a better division) and Wilder in the summer for their styles.
This is worse.
Just to be clear
I don’t like allardyce due to his lack of respect for the England job/various issues relating to overspending…not just tactics
I wouldn’t have taken wilder because I belive he is too stubborn, I also wouldn’t have gone after the manager we now have …
It’s great that many are responding to very fair critics of playing style/failure to change…with “We sold Pererira cheap†or “we are thirdâ€â€¦..but they are not fair objections to a real lack of a fresh option or change in tactics
Pererira was going regardless, him and his agents engineered it and we had a few good years out of him before getting 3x what we paid …., add in that even if we got 300m for him, the same fans would be crying that the board wouldn’t spend it anyway ..so leave it there .
The fact that we are 3rd , matters not……we could and should be top , that’s not arrogance, that’s an understanding that we have had opportunities against some pretty tripe opposition to get the points, we somehow conspired not to
The same substitutions at the same times, the embarrassing fan noise when we get a long throw (oh the irony of when we mocked Stoke) the failure to actually be able to adapt ….
By all means , you can all bang the drum about it’s too soon ….but if it ain’t going to work , earlier is always better ?
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One thing that Pulisball and Valball have in common is that it's misery for forwards - particularly those with any talent. On the one hand they hardly ever get a ball to feet from the back or midfield; they have to go chasing it, on the other hand, they have to chase the ball as it's switched between defenders and goalie - no wonder they're shattered after 60 mins. It's as wretched for them as it is for us watching.
I would rather be a mid-table Championship club watching young players half from the academy , half inspired / stats-led picks playing to feet with a morsel of elan rather than this.
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One thing that Pulisball and Valball have in common is that it's misery for forwards - particularly those with any talent. On the one hand they hardly ever get a ball to feet from the back or midfield; they have to go chasing it, on the other hand, they have to chase the ball as it's switched between defenders and goalie - no wonder they're shattered after 60 mins. It's as wretched for them as it is for us watching.
I would rather be a mid-table Championship club watching yound players half from the academy , half inspired / stats-led picks playing to feet with a morsel of elan rather than this.
I don't agree as we have scored and created plenty which is nothing like a Pulis team and I don't think our forwards are particularly shattered after an hour either, but the manager has his thing, he likes to make changes. Back-fired big time last night and Robinson was understandably annoyed to be subbed.
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Not the collection of games at the start when we lost four or five games with a consecutive scoreline of 25-0 or something. Then we got our act together a little after we signed better players in January. This current team however is far inferior to the resources that Big Sam had to choose from. That was clear last night, you could see how ordinary we looked as soon as Mowat was not playing.
Sam only spent about £4m including wages for the half season. It's not like he was Man City'ing it.
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Hardly anyone is bemoaning the actual quality of the midfield in passing the football, they obviously haven't got the technical skill to play champagne football demanded on here.
Why would Ismael tell someone to just lump it, you wouldn't, and not even Barnsley did that. The biggest cumprits in being uncomfortable in possession are Bartley and Livermore. Yokuslu would go a long way to fixing it.
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Hardly anyone is bemoaning the actual quality of the midfield in passing the football, they obviously haven't got the technical skill to play champagne football demanded on here.
Why would Ismael tell someone to just lump it, you wouldn't, and not even Barnsley did that. The biggest cumprits in being uncomfortable in possession are Bartley and Livermore. Yokuslu would go a long way to fixing it.
Champagne football. My word. It’s called a middle ground.
His comments last night are everything I need to know - “get to the final third quicklyâ€.
Nothing around our quality, our lack of control. Just we need to get there quicker.
You keep banging the Yokuslu drum and whilst being a better defensive midfielder than Livermore, he does not transform this team. He’s just an upgrade on getting that ball forward quicker.
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Staggering across various platforms to see all the “ we’d be top of the league with Allardyce “ “ Allardyce would get us promoted easily “ etc etc. Well one bloke thought he couldn’t or else he wouldn’t have turned the job down! Will never be convinced otherwise !!
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And some of the fans defending this garbage are the ones who criticised Allardyce (in a better division) and Wilder in the summer for their styles.
This is worse.
I'm not inclined to get into another who's better/worse than who debate after the long-running and ultimately banned Bilic v Allardyce saga but, as someone who was (and still is) very critical of Allardyce, I'm also not happy with our current level of performance either. Where we were averaging 17+ shots per game until about 4 weeks ago, we've now been reduced to about 10 or 11 per game, with not many on target, and we should be doing better than that if this style of play is working properly.
However, one thing that Valerien did say about last night that's worth emphasising is "we started the game well - good pressing, we forced a lot of long balls, Swansea didn't create a big chance. Our problem throughout the game was our transition. We didn't keep the ball". This does suggest that "hoof it and then run after it" isn't how he wants things to be.
It does need to improve quickly though, as it hasn't been good enough for weeks now. Having said that, only having 4 forwards available, as is the case at present, isn't sufficient if we want to a) have consistent high pressing and b) have proper options to change things around upfront. The forwards will get tired unless we can rotate them more readily than we can at present.
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New Manager incoming :P
https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2021/10/21/roy-hodgson-takes-charge-of-youthful-west-brom-training-at-st-georges-park/
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Champagne football. My word. It’s called a middle ground.
His comments last night are everything I need to know - “get to the final third quicklyâ€.
Nothing around our quality, our lack of control. Just we need to get there quicker.
You keep banging the Yokuslu drum and whilst being a better defensive midfielder than Livermore, he does not transform this team. He’s just an upgrade on getting that ball forward quicker.
So let's get straight, if we changed Manager right now, our midfield is Top 2 material and we can achieve automatic? Because I just don't see it. We don't pass the ball well enough. Yokuslu for Livermore would make a world of difference because his distribution is x10 better.
As for this "getting the ball quickly" its just a lazy statement, I remember us hammering Derby and passing them off the park, we just didn't score.
Against Stoke and Swansea they passed the ball better than us, you would say the likes of Patterson and Allen are better at passing than our men.
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Simple really. Val has to adapt. Too many poor performances to note already this season. I’ve seen no signs of Val having the intuition to really change tactics when we’ve needed him to.
On a side note though, I really do feel the board made a grave mistake in signing Jordan Hugill on loan. That was absolutely NOT the striker we needed.
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I can't believe that anyone thinks our current problems are down to Livermore's distribution. Our getting the ball forward doesn't consist of getting it to anyone in CM, it's all about the defence hitting it into the corners. If we want to improve our distribution we need to look at Bartley/Ajayi. The CM's jobs are to get after the second ball.
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Staggering across various platforms to see all the “ we’d be top of the league with Allardyce “ “ Allardyce would get us promoted easily “ etc etc. Well one bloke thought he couldn’t or else he wouldn’t have turned the job down! Will never be convinced otherwise !!
He knew the reality was that he’d have to try with 13 leaving and that there was nothing in the kitty to replace them. He didn’t fancy a ridiculously difficult task and knew there would be no backing. He knew that many of the players that IV is relying on weren’t up to the task.
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What’s Ted Lasso up to these days?
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I can't believe that anyone thinks our current problems are down to Livermore's distribution. Our getting the ball forward doesn't consist of getting it to anyone in CM, it's all about the defence hitting it into the corners. If we want to improve our distribution we need to look at Bartley/Ajayi. The CM's jobs are to get after the second ball.
Thats it exactly , there's a hint of rugby in these tactics . Its exactly what Barnsley did under Val .
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Thats it exactly , there's a hint of rugby in these tactics . Its exactly what Barnsley did under Val .
Think this hits the nail on the head.
In this day and age, is there really any need to go out with such tedious tactics? It’s not as though we are playing top class opposition every week and for a club that’s just dropped out of the Prem we shouldn’t be adopting this approach.
Unfortunately the club seems to be stuck in a bit of a cross roads at the moment, the ultimate aim is promotion which is all well and good but what’s the point when we capitulate in that league? There needs to be a sense of enjoyment in football at some point otherwise for me as a supporter it’s just going through the motions.
One thing I will say in Val’s defence is that this is probably the poorest squad we have had since the Gary Megaon days. It comes to something when a free transfer from Barnsley is head and shoulders above anything else we have.
Hopefully in January we address the need for a centre forward and in the very near future Diangana improves.
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Looking forward to January where VI may dip into the NFL and sign a couple of 'Punters'.
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I'm not inclined to get into another who's better/worse than who debate after the long-running and ultimately banned Bilic v Allardyce saga but, as someone who was (and still is) very critical of Allardyce, I'm also not happy with our current level of performance either. Where we were averaging 17+ shots per game until about 4 weeks ago, we've now been reduced to about 10 or 11 per game, with not many on target, and we should be doing better than that if this style of play is working properly.
However, one thing that Valerien did say about last night that's worth emphasising is "we started the game well - good pressing, we forced a lot of long balls, Swansea didn't create a big chance. Our problem throughout the game was our transition. We didn't keep the ball". This does suggest that "hoof it and then run after it" isn't how he wants things to be.
It does need to improve quickly though, as it hasn't been good enough for weeks now. Having said that, only having 4 forwards available, as is the case at present, isn't sufficient if we want to a) have consistent high pressing and b) have proper options to change things around upfront. The forwards will get tired until unless we can rotate them more readily than we can at present.
This is the issue for me, he is trying to implement a hybrid where we get it forward quickly, when the opportunity is there, or, if not, we retain possession and transition through the middle. Not a bad plan, if the players are on board and able. At the minute, it seems they are struggling and are doing neither very well which means the high line leaves us incredibly vulnerable. So, he either perseveres, sticks to his guns and works their nads off in training or he reverts back to kick n rush.
Personally, I think the hybrid will be better long term and certainly easier on the eye, just depends if we have the patience to accept poor performances along the way.
Many on here bemoan the lack of a long term vision, perhaps we need to give him time.
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This is the issue for me, he is trying to implement a hybrid where we get it forward quickly, when the opportunity is there, or, if not, we retain possession and transition through the middle. Not a bad plan, if the players are on board and able. At the minute, it seems they are struggling and are doing neither very well which means the high line leaves us incredibly vulnerable. So, he either perseveres, sticks to his guns and works their nads off in training or he reverts back to kick n rush.
Personally, I think the hybrid will be better long term and certainly easier on the eye, just depends if we have the patience to accept poor performances along the way.
Many on here bemoan the lack of a long term vision, perhaps we need to give him time.
If he manages to transition to a more "suitable" approach thats fantastic BUT all the noise from him suggests thats not the direction of travel. If he is adamant that its this kick and rush stuff without compromise, he is going to get drummed out fairly quickly and the 4 year plan will go with him.
When he joined I posted that we as fans will have to be patient when the inevitable difficult patch comes, I stand by that, BUT, I had not anticipated how spectacularly awful the football would be. His problem is that awful football will be tolerated while it gets results, once results go, it has a very, very short lifespan of acceptance. At Barnsley any results were an improvement, here it is so different and he has to either prove us all wrong or compromise.
I cant see him doing either to be honest, but we have to be patient or the numpties at the top will go into chop and change mode again and that is a guaranteed recipe for failure.
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Val has a pass this season, unless we plummit towards the bottom of the league, hes a long term prject and hopefully rhe board treat him so. We hardly have any family jewels to plunder (johnstone and townsend aside i cant see much intrest in our squad) so if we dont go up this year its not a total disaster.
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I've got my doubts over VI. Love how he has been off the pitch, but I've yet to be sold on the pitch and in that respect my opinion hasnt changed.
The big frustration for me at the moment, is that it seems so close to something that could work really well.
Keep the press, swarm and be aggressive out of possession. The way we were in the first few games. That'll work just find at this level. VI can set this up well.
Once we win the ball, adopt a 60/40 approach. 60% of the time, play through the lines and keep the ball on the deck. Mix up being patient and passing it around on the floor, with moving quickly when you have numerical advantages or space.
The other 40% of the time, try the long balls in to channels. We have the players at this level to do both, and the unpredictability will cause teams problems.
We have to give the players the authority and trust to do this, but it also needs a bit of football intelligence, which again, we should be capable of at this level.
If we did that, we could get away without a proper 9 for the time being. There's nothing in the above that our squad shouldn't be capable of implementing in my opinion.
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I think the problem we've got is the players aren't physically capable of maintaining the press. With that in mind we're looking to press and play in phases.
Unfortunately some of the players are clearly pressing and playing out of synch' with their teammates. They're getting caught in two minds and the result is a disjointed hotch potch of a team pattern. When it clicks it clicks.
We just need to click more often than we have of late. A lot more. Let's face it, given we get the ball forward quickly from the back it was never going to be pretty with Bartley and Ajayi's blindfold sling shot approach to passing.
Work in progress......
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I think the problem we've got is the players aren't physically capable of maintaining the press. With that in mind we're looking to press and play in phases.
Unfortunately some of the players are clearly pressing and playing out of synch' with their teammates. They're getting caught in two minds and the result is a disjointed hotch potch of a team pattern. When it clicks it clicks.
We just need to click more often than we have of late. A lot more. Let's face it, given we get the ball forward quickly from the back it was never going to be pretty with Bartley and Ajayi's blindfold sling shot approach to passing.
Work in progress......
A very well balanced post on where things stand at the moment, I agree with it all and it’s where I stand too.
The swarm and high levels of intensity we saw at the start of the season have dropped. I think Val needs a better squad and the ability to rotate starting 11s. He doesn’t yet have that so as Smersh has said we are perhaps seeing a plan B of phased approaches and they just aren’t in sync with each other.
This all needs time and I’ve got a lot more patience to wait and see how it works. We’re 3rd and we’ll and truly in the promotion race and after losing Pereira and bringing in very little quality it’s all I would ask for.
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You would hope we would still win more than we lose the way we are going, and if injuries and a thin squad means that is the play off lottery then so be it. Bournemouth and Fulham could pull away now.
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A very well balanced post on where things stand at the moment, I agree with it all and it’s where I stand too.
The swarm and high levels of intensity we saw at the start of the season have dropped. I think Val needs a better squad and the ability to rotate starting 11s. He doesn’t yet have that so as Smersh has said we are perhaps seeing a plan B of phased approaches and they just aren’t in sync with each other.
This all needs time and I’ve got a lot more patience to wait and see how it works. We’re 3rd and we’ll and truly in the promotion race and after losing Pereira and bringing in very little quality it’s all I would ask for.
I would also agree we arent capable of maintaining the press, but in part that is because we are so poor on the ball. Even being that poor, we are generally having more possession than other sides (other than vs Swansea), so if we were better and got possession to 60-65%, there would naturally be less pressing needed.
How you transition to making that work being a weaker side if we were to get promoted is problem for another day!
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A very well balanced post on where things stand at the moment, I agree with it all and it’s where I stand too.
The swarm and high levels of intensity we saw at the start of the season have dropped. I think Val needs a better squad and the ability to rotate starting 11s. He doesn’t yet have that so as Smersh has said we are perhaps seeing a plan B of phased approaches and they just aren’t in sync with each other.
This all needs time and I’ve got a lot more patience to wait and see how it works. We’re 3rd and we’ll and truly in the promotion race and after losing Pereira and bringing in very little quality it’s all I would ask for.
What’s ya thoughts Smersh?😂
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I don't think it's fitness that has stopped our press working - it's the opposition easily reacting to it. Swansea played far more long balls against us than they have in previous matches. There was a Sky stat in one of our other games showing how recent teams have started to hit 20-30% more long balls than they normally do when they come up against us. It makes sense, tell your defence to hit it long - quickly - then it negates our press and puts pressure on our error prone backline to defend balls over the top.
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What’s ya thoughts Smersh?😂
It's my considered opinion that this Smersh chap's got something about him. Whatever that something is isn't entirely balanced but we can't have everything. Fine lines and all that ;D .
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Apparently they are all working together on a January transfer plan which is great to hear but what Lai will actually sanction is another thing.
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Apparently they are all working together on a January transfer plan which is great to hear but what Lai will actually sanction is another thing.
Transfer plans are great but I'm struggling to remember the last time one of them came together. We tend to lack the imagination and dynamism of the A Team. Wonder how quickly we'll slip through to plan 'Z' this time around.......
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Apparently they are all working together on a January transfer plan which is great to hear but what Lai will actually sanction is another thing.
Did they mention the 'competitive budget?' ;D
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Do you know what, Im all for freedom of speech but the way a few on here who are hypercritical of Val never ceases to amaze me, I comfort myself by thinking that this is a fraction of what supporters are feeling, would some of you be happy if we were 3rd from bottom? Then you can criticise him, but 3rd from top really?
What do you want great play or results?
Sometimes you can't have both in fact it's rare
Cut the fella some slack he's been here weeks out of a 4 year project, he's had no money and given us all something to chear and really think about his methods of play, sure sometimes it's not pretty but only lost 2? Come on get being him
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Do you know what, Im all for freedom of speech but the way a few on here who are hypercritical of Val never ceases to amaze me, I comfort myself by thinking that this is a fraction of what supporters are feeling, would some of you be happy if we were 3rd from bottom? Then you can criticise him, but 3rd from top really?
What do you want great play or results?
Sometimes you can't have both in fact it's rare
Cut the fella some slack he's been here weeks out of a 4 year project, he's had no money and given us all something to chear and really think about his methods of play, sure sometimes it's not pretty but only lost 2? Come on get being him
I'm not sure this negativity applies just to Albion fans or even football just look at the negativity in the media, unreal, unrelenting, this is the first time I have been on since Wednesday as I couldn't be bothered to read the hyperbole that was about to be unleashed because we lost a game even today I just checked in to see how the land lies, a bit rocky ah it.
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Transfer plans are great but I'm struggling to remember the last time one of them came together. We tend to lack the imagination and dynamism of the A Team. Wonder how quickly we'll slip through to plan 'Z' this time around.......
Did they mention the 'competitive budget?' ;D
The cynical Albion fan in me half thinks it's too drum up some half season ticket sales because I think that's going to be hard sell with the style of football we play now but generally Dan you are correct. We have had plans and lists since Dowling was here and virtually nothing ever came of it.
VI wants Dike, we all know it so you would hope we already know whether he's interested in coming or not. Wages shouldn't be a problem as MLS site states he's on 124k a year base salary which is about 90k in pounds. He will ask for 5 figures I'd imagine after a good half season in the EFL last year though. Can't see how long is left on his contract though. I'd guess we are looking at 9-10m to get him with another 6 months of his contract run down.
Skyclad perhaps they were holding the money till Jan and hoping we were still in with a shout of promotion by then by signing frees or loans? I'm being really optimistic here ;D
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It's my considered opinion that this Smersh chap's got something about him. Whatever that something is isn't entirely balanced but we can't have everything. Fine lines and all that ;D .
Wasn’t Smersh one of James Bonds enemies organisations ?
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Wasn’t Smersh one of James Bonds enemies organisations ?
Yes I think they were the ones who didn't tolerate failure and had women with poisoned knives in their shoes. A bit like marriage really.
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Wasn’t Smersh one of James Bonds enemies organisations ?
SMERSH was the original name for SPECTRE in the Ian Fleming novels.
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Yes I think they were the ones who didn't tolerate failure and had women with poisoned knives in their shoes. A bit like marriage really.
You mean Rosa Clebb. Don't go on a date with her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeXAojTEkvg
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We were good today. The press had high energy. I liked his subs they took momentum out game for bristol city.
Think he and his tactice benefited from a fresh pair in central midfield. Which shows he shouldnt be afraid to rotate his players to get the results he wants
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Well done Ishmael cracking performance today and liked that you weren’t impressed with distribution from back line in post match comments keep their feet on the ground. Hopefully Livermore will find he’s got competition his spot and won’t walk back into team next game, delighted for Hugill to get on score sheet and hopefully he will produce the goods on a regular basis.
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The key will be what he does in the next game.
He was forced into changing the central midfielders due to injury and suspension, whilst some of yesterday was down to Bristol being poor it cannot be overlooked that Molumby looked far more mobile than Livermore or Mowatt. In addition Snodgrass combined his experience with quality on the ball which caused havoc.
Its got to be Molumby alongside either Snodgrass or Mowatt for me. If Snodgrass is fit then id make the other two wait for their chance, nothing like competition for places.
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The key will be what he does in the next game.
If Snodgrass is fit then id make the other two wait for their chance, nothing like competition for places.
Agree completely. Amazes me sometimes how easy sometimes players can walk back in to a side, it must be demoralising for the replaced and all the squad players. If either of Mowatt or Livermore deserve to walk straight in, it’s clearly Mowatt.
However as the next match is Fulham, I’d not be surprised to see VI revert. Let’s see if he’s brave enough to leave the captain out.
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Chatting yesterday at the game the argument could be made to have three in midfield against Fulham, but cannot see Val changing tactics.
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Chatting yesterday at the game the argument could be made to have three in midfield against Fulham, but cannot see Val changing tactics.
always thought three in midfield is the better option for us but would Val convert to back four or would he stick with three at back keep two wing backs go three across middle and two up top?
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Agree completely. Amazes me sometimes how easy sometimes players can walk back in to a side, it must be demoralising for the replaced and all the squad players. If either of Mowatt or Livermore deserve to walk straight in, it’s clearly Mowatt.
However as the next match is Fulham, I’d not be surprised to see VI revert. Let’s see if he’s brave enough to leave the captain out.
For me the best 2 passers are Mowatt and Snodgrass. They know how to weight a pass accurately and quickly. If we want the ball played into the feet of our forwards, these 2 will provide most quality. However, ball winning ability is also needed, so this is where Livermore is better. And if you want someone able to cover lots of ground, then Mulumby is the best.
Not an easy selection. If you choose 3 then you probably have to restrict Furlong and Townsend getting forward, or go 2 up front which gives us less firepower in front of goal.
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Has set up today like a lower league team in a 3rd Round FA Cup tie.
As soon as Fulham scored the 1st goal it was all over.
Certain players are not good enough, you know the ones.
Distinctly 3rd favourites for the title.
If the Manager doesn't get his team selection correct then he's going to come under further fire, simple.
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Has set up today like a lower league team in a 3rd Round FA Cup tie.
As soon as Fulham scored the 1st goal it was all over.
Certain players are not good enough, you know the ones.
Distinctly 3rd favourites for the title.
If the Manager doesn't get his team selection correct then he's going to come under further fire, simple.
Whilst I’m no fan of his tactics and how he’s making us play, he’s been a bit unlucky today. That being said that’s part of football and I’m interested to see how he reacts. If he changes nothing then we should sack him tonight
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He needs to learn that this isn’t Barnsley, the attitude of plucky underdog won’t wash and garbage football won’t be tolerated.
If this carries on he’ll be lucky to make January as his football is utter garbage and he can’t even produce the results to make it even close to acceptable.
It’s Tony Pulis, but a level below, and doesn’t even produce the results to back it up. If his name was Fred Smith the banners would be out for his dismissal
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What will todays reason be?
Front 3 not working seems to be his number 1 go to.
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What will todays reason be?
Front 3 not working seems to be his number 1 go to.
He’ll blame anyone but himself or his favourites
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He’ll blame anyone but himself or his favourites
That's what worries me about the guy. He never looks at himself but blames everything and everyone else.
When you do that you don't learn from your mistakes and improve.
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That's what worries me about the guy. He never looks at himself but blames everything and everyone else.
When you do that you don't learn from your mistakes and improve.
Correct Gaz.
What worries me is we paid Barnsley a fair chunk of compensation to get Val and his backroom team then rewarded them with a 4 year contract.
I can’t the board making any changes this season unless we nosedive down the table.
But yes, he capabilities of a manager certainly need questioning given his inability to adapt.
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Correct Gaz.
What worries me is we paid Barnsley a fair chunk of compensation to get Val and his backroom team then rewarded them with a 4 year contract.
I can’t the board making any changes this season unless we nosedive down the table.
But yes, he capabilities of a manager certainly need questioning given his inability to adapt.
Wait for the next home game. If he carries on it’ll dawn on him
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Correct Gaz.
What worries me is we paid Barnsley a fair chunk of compensation to get Val and his backroom team then rewarded them with a 4 year contract.
I can’t the board making any changes this season unless we nosedive down the table.
But yes, he capabilities of a manager certainly need questioning given his inability to adapt.
Reminds me in someway of the Darren Moore situation where everyone could see what was wrong and was killing us (Playing out from back, had been sussed by other teams) but Moore just kept saying i don't care, i'm going to keep doing it no matter how many points it cost us. The arrogance of the man cost him in the end but more importantly it cost us.
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Its one thing playing the 2 in the middle If the 3 up top are a threat , ours aren't . At all .
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Fulham are a better team than our first eleven and then you compound that by the manager getting his selection wrong and then the ref gifting them an opening goal and the final result was inevitable.
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Its one thing playing the 2 in the middle If the 3 up top are a threat , ours aren't . At all .
For me that’s key. Three up top have to frighten the opposition ours are little threat.
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A good manager assessed his players and puts them into a system to suit.
A poor one gets a shoe horn out and expects miracles
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A good manager assessed his players and puts them into a system to suit.
A poor one gets a shoe horn out and expects miracles
This is a naive cliche. There isn’t anything wrong with the way we set up; it’s a quite astute way of overloading the opposition. But if your opponents have better players and a friendly ref then you are in trouble.
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Fulham are a better team than our first eleven and then you compound that by the manager getting his selection wrong and then the ref gifting them an opening goal and the final result was inevitable.
It’s not a case of who’s got the best 11 players though. We’ve lost to teams who’ve had “inferior†players. It’s about adapting at this level, it feels like this game plan backfires if we’re playing a team that has done their homework on us and gets a lead. Today was a mixture of a lack of quality, game plans and luck from refereeing decisions. It’s worrying that we’re not proactive and trying to address the deficiencies in our game which is mostly on the defensive side with the high line in my opinion- teams have sussed it out.
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It’s not a case of who’s got the best 11 players though. We’ve lost to teams who’ve had “inferior†players. It’s about adapting at this level, it feels like this game plan backfires if we’re playing a team that has done their homework on us and gets a lead. Today was a mixture of a lack of quality, game plans and luck from refereeing decisions. It’s worrying that we’re not proactive and trying to address the deficiencies in our game which is mostly on the defensive side with the high line in my opinion- teams have sussed it out.
Fulham got the lead because the ref gave them a penalty that should not have been given, that is nothing to do with doing your homework.
Theron we were chasing the game with inferior players to them.
Of course the manager should be criticised for playing Livermore, Phillips and Hugil when we have better players on the bench
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This is a naive cliche. There isn’t anything wrong with the way we set up; it’s a quite astute way of overloading the opposition. But if your opponents have better players and a friendly ref then you are in trouble.
Explain the refusal to alter our suicidal defensive line and pre planned subs then ?
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VI post match quick summary from Sky:
VI doesn't want to talk about penalty. We gave ball away in possession which leads to penalty. Angry about that not penalty.
1-0 says we still in game and then says embarassing for us to make mistake that Snodgrass did to make it 2-0
2nd half he said we need to raise performance and score first to get back into game but red card was tough to take and led to 3-0
Says too many individual errors and move onto next game. Says needs to speak to squad and pick right players with right mentality for Hull game.
Says we need to improve and not panic, long way to go.
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Fulham got the lead because the ref gave them a penalty that should not have been given, that is nothing to do with doing your homework.
Theron we were chasing the game with inferior players to them.
Of course the manager should be criticised for playing Livermore, Phillips and Hugil when we have better players on the bench
I’d disagree. The Birmingham & QPR games I think we were quite lucky to win, QPR in particular. Stoke sussed us out as did Swansea today. Poor and similar performances against Preston, Derby & Millwall don’t inspire me with confidence from my original point. Undeniably we’ve had a good start to the season but performances & results from the QPR game in general until now have been far from impressive.
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This is a naive cliche. There isn’t anything wrong with the way we set up; it’s a quite astute way of overloading the opposition. But if your opponents have better players and a friendly ref then you are in trouble.
The 3 up top isn't working , both creating or as threats . He doesn't have the players good enough for it no matter how many times he shuffles them around .
We don't look enough of a threat during play despite the three , Townsend is our best threat which is a worry .
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We’ve got worse since the first game. Extremely worrying, can’t see Ismael lasting the season. The league is so poor and we’re only 3rd due to the good start to the season in the first 5 games. Since Peterborough we’ve been awful, grabbed a couple of lucky wins. Even the Cardiff game was comfortable due to a couple of wonder strikes.
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Peterborough found Ismaels system out and that's bottom line cause Stone Cold said so! ;D
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Fulham got the lead because the ref gave them a penalty that should not have been given, that is nothing to do with doing your homework.
Theron we were chasing the game with inferior players to them.
Of course the manager should be criticised for playing Livermore, Phillips and Hugil when we have better players on the bench
Everyone is focussing on the penalty and that’s fair enough but in the build up Karlan Grant had possession for us and was so weak and lost the ball in a bad area .
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Have you looked at our squad?
It is diabolical.
It isn’t good enough for auto promotion yet this guy has played us into the top 3 in the opening third of the season.
We don’t have quality footballers in midfield who will let us dominate the ball, so we play to our relative strengths. It also doesn’t help having a striker who can actually control the ball and link play.
He is far, far from Pulis and I’d like to see him work with some better quality.
Knowing us though we will probably sack him and get some journeyman in like we always seem to do.
You’ve got massive football clubs in this division and the one below who would give a left nut to be in the promotion fight and here we are complaining.
I think he’s punching us above our weight personally.
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Everyone is focussing on the penalty and that’s fair enough but in the build up Karlan Grant had possession for us and was so weak and lost the ball in a bad area .
Then their forward lost possession thanks to a good tackle from Bartley but the ref gave them a pen. otherwise Grant losing the ball would not have resulted in a goal.
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Who in their right mind would take the job if we sacked Ismael now?
He came into a situation with a squad who were abysmal last year and quite unbalanced, with the best player leaving. He wasn't able to spend money or bring many players in - and unfortunately for him, he started well. This led to both the media and fans deciding we were right up there in the mix for automatics. While we're at it, O'Shea is a massive loss for the defense.
The manager is being given no time, no slack, and expectations that are too high. I feel slightly embarrassed at how entitled many albion fans have become. Ownership have mis-managed this team for a long time and now we do not have a playing squad entitled to any position in this league. Diangana cost how much? Have you seen him when he plays? He is tragic - is that Ismael's fault?
I agree with some of the criticism aimed at his personnel decisions - but honestly, the bloke gets no slack and no time to start building his own team. If we sack him, who do we end up with then? As I said, what decent manager looks at us and goes "yeah that's a good idea"? We sack managers like they grow on trees in recent years. Plus he's on a 4 year deal, so I very much doubt we'll want to pay that off.
I just have no idea what Albion fans think we are going to get, or what they expect anybody to achieve with this playing squad; especially whilst the current ownership is in place. I feel that the majority of the criticism should be directed at said ownership; and I find it kind of embarrassing how little support and encouragement the team & manager actually get. It's all moaning, whining and unrealistic expectations. On top of that, the players and manager have to deal with consistent fan pressure every home game, rather than enjoying much support.
Calling to sack the manager after 15 games into a large project, in which he has had very little control over the players at his disposal. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'd forgive him for resenting the fans of this club. Modern football fans are frankly atrocious, and every bit as impatient as they previously criticised the media for being.
Overall, what is the point in sacking him, and what will it take for fans to declare the team and management worthy of their support and confidence? Feels like fans are waiting for an excuse to get on the backs of players and coaches, rather than looking to support them and lift them when we're down.
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Who in their right mind would take the job if we sacked Ismael now?
He came into a situation with a squad who were abysmal last year and quite unbalanced, with the best player leaving. He wasn't able to spend money or bring many players in - and unfortunately for him, he started well. This led to both the media and fans deciding we were right up there in the mix for automatics. While we're at it, O'Shea is a massive loss for the defense.
The manager is being given no time, no slack, and expectations that are too high. I feel slightly embarrassed at how entitled many albion fans have become. Ownership have mis-managed this team for a long time and now we do not have a playing squad entitled to any position in this league. Diangana cost how much? Have you seen him when he plays? He is tragic - is that Ismael's fault?
I agree with some of the criticism aimed at his personnel decisions - but honestly, the bloke gets no slack and no time to start building his own team. If we sack him, who do we end up with then? As I said, what decent manager looks at us and goes "yeah that's a good idea"? We sack managers like they grow on trees in recent years. Plus he's on a 4 year deal, so I very much doubt we'll want to pay that off.
I just have no idea what Albion fans think we are going to get, or what they expect anybody to achieve with this playing squad; especially whilst the current ownership is in place. I feel that the majority of the criticism should be directed at said ownership; and I find it kind of embarrassing how little support and encouragement the team & manager actually get. It's all moaning, whining and unrealistic expectations. On top of that, the players and manager have to deal with consistent fan pressure every home game, rather than enjoying much support.
Calling to sack the manager after 15 games into a large project, in which he has had very little control over the players at his disposal. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'd forgive him for resenting the fans of this club. Modern football fans are frankly atrocious, and every bit as impatient as they previously criticised the media for being.
Overall, what is the point in sacking him, and what will it take for fans to declare the team and management worthy of their support and confidence? Feels like fans are waiting for an excuse to get on the backs of players and coaches, rather than looking to support them and lift them when we're down.
Well
Firstly you said you can’t believe how entitled some fans are, then state that every fan is entitled to their opinion…
But that aside
There are many many managers that would want this job, and do a better job of it .
Your statement thatâ€unfortunately he started well†is a bit strange, wether he we spent money or not, we have one of the strongest teams in the league, and that does not mean that fans have got “too high expectation†but it does mean that they expect the manager being paid a fair whack for managing and motivating a team of professionals on a consistent basis ….does that, however at the moment within 3 consecutive away defeats and some very fortunate wins he really should be looking at his own methods and perhaps opting to change it up a little ……from my perspective our main tactic seems to revolve around a large bath Matt (**** available from dunhelm was £16:99, now £11:99) and basically hoping something happens .
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Who in their right mind would take the job if we sacked Ismael now?
He came into a situation with a squad who were abysmal last year and quite unbalanced, with the best player leaving. He wasn't able to spend money or bring many players in - and unfortunately for him, he started well. This led to both the media and fans deciding we were right up there in the mix for automatics. While we're at it, O'Shea is a massive loss for the defense.
The manager is being given no time, no slack, and expectations that are too high. I feel slightly embarrassed at how entitled many albion fans have become. Ownership have mis-managed this team for a long time and now we do not have a playing squad entitled to any position in this league. Diangana cost how much? Have you seen him when he plays? He is tragic - is that Ismael's fault?
I agree with some of the criticism aimed at his personnel decisions - but honestly, the bloke gets no slack and no time to start building his own team. If we sack him, who do we end up with then? As I said, what decent manager looks at us and goes "yeah that's a good idea"? We sack managers like they grow on trees in recent years. Plus he's on a 4 year deal, so I very much doubt we'll want to pay that off.
I just have no idea what Albion fans think we are going to get, or what they expect anybody to achieve with this playing squad; especially whilst the current ownership is in place. I feel that the majority of the criticism should be directed at said ownership; and I find it kind of embarrassing how little support and encouragement the team & manager actually get. It's all moaning, whining and unrealistic expectations. On top of that, the players and manager have to deal with consistent fan pressure every home game, rather than enjoying much support.
Calling to sack the manager after 15 games into a large project, in which he has had very little control over the players at his disposal. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'd forgive him for resenting the fans of this club. Modern football fans are frankly atrocious, and every bit as impatient as they previously criticised the media for being.
Overall, what is the point in sacking him, and what will it take for fans to declare the team and management worthy of their support and confidence? Feels like fans are waiting for an excuse to get on the backs of players and coaches, rather than looking to support them and lift them when we're down.
Post of the year mate.
If any club needs a takeover it's us. Villa and Wolves have had them. Ambition shown, gates are up, competitive in the PL. We haven't. Only Paul Thompson in 40 years has shown any Ambition for this club. Gates are falling and the club is falling further and further behind our near neighbours let alone other clubs.
The manager is the least of our problems.
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Only one person responsible for our backward slide and that's the owner. He's been a disaster for our club and the sooner he's gone the better, unfortunately that doesn't look like happening anytime soon. You would have thought after selling Pereira for £17m just backing the new manager with another good midfielder and decent goalscorer would be have been doable. Think the defence would JUST about be good enough.
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Who in their right mind would take the job if we sacked Ismael now?
He came into a situation with a squad who were abysmal last year and quite unbalanced, with the best player leaving. He wasn't able to spend money or bring many players in - and unfortunately for him, he started well. This led to both the media and fans deciding we were right up there in the mix for automatics. While we're at it, O'Shea is a massive loss for the defense.
The manager is being given no time, no slack, and expectations that are too high. I feel slightly embarrassed at how entitled many albion fans have become. Ownership have mis-managed this team for a long time and now we do not have a playing squad entitled to any position in this league. Diangana cost how much? Have you seen him when he plays? He is tragic - is that Ismael's fault?
I agree with some of the criticism aimed at his personnel decisions - but honestly, the bloke gets no slack and no time to start building his own team. If we sack him, who do we end up with then? As I said, what decent manager looks at us and goes "yeah that's a good idea"? We sack managers like they grow on trees in recent years. Plus he's on a 4 year deal, so I very much doubt we'll want to pay that off.
I just have no idea what Albion fans think we are going to get, or what they expect anybody to achieve with this playing squad; especially whilst the current ownership is in place. I feel that the majority of the criticism should be directed at said ownership; and I find it kind of embarrassing how little support and encouragement the team & manager actually get. It's all moaning, whining and unrealistic expectations. On top of that, the players and manager have to deal with consistent fan pressure every home game, rather than enjoying much support.
Calling to sack the manager after 15 games into a large project, in which he has had very little control over the players at his disposal. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I'd forgive him for resenting the fans of this club. Modern football fans are frankly atrocious, and every bit as impatient as they previously criticised the media for being.
Overall, what is the point in sacking him, and what will it take for fans to declare the team and management worthy of their support and confidence? Feels like fans are waiting for an excuse to get on the backs of players and coaches, rather than looking to support them and lift them when we're down.
Good post.
Ismael, however, is shooting himself in the foot everytime he plays Hugill and Livermore. Time and again they've shown to be not good enough even for the Championship, we are carrying them.
There are other players on the bench / in the stands who are superior. Everytime this happens it's a slight on the Manager.
We've got virtually no chance of promotion if we start with sub-standard players from here on in.....
Lai doesn't pick the team.
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As have said previously, the board are useless and have appointed a ready made scapegoat.
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Don't think VI has helped himself however this is a huge job we had a pretty poor squad last time out at this level and periera scintillating form pre Christmas got us a long way ahead and then we limped over the line in the end.
Currently our best player left summer the only one near pl quality. The rest are championship level some better than others.
I mean we are starting Hugil up front and he is pretty poor. Our self proclaimed rivals for automatic have mitrovic who Is on route to break goal scoring records at this level the way he is going. Karla Grant might have 7 goals so far but I struggle to think of a game when he's been any good he normally is carried or is hiding. Phillips as throughout his Albion career blows hot and cold. Livermore should have been a reserve option 2 if not 3 years ago and is still starting. Mowatt definitely has something but cannot do it on his own. Molumby young raw with potential- not even our player. Snodgrass could be useful but isn't a long term option and shows how poor our recruitment has been.
Furlong very much a wing back and has improved year on year with us but still better with his head and hands than with his feet which is damning for a footballer. Ajayi gets out of trouble with his pace. Bartley a warrior with a Rick in his game. The best cb starting is another loan player. Kipre hasn't had a run but hasn't shown much... O'Shea huge miss for us and no surprise since his injury that our form has tailed off.
Even if VI got his team selection "right" in the opinion of many of us on here including me we would still have a championship level side. Even if we go up we would need a brand new 11.
As when slaven was in charge we have a unbalanced largely average championship squad (was peace right?) and until the current ownership back somebody they will never recover their money and we will be stuck bouncing about or eventually we will miss the boat to land of money and find ourselves with Sunderland Sheffield Wednesday etc.
The manager has his faults but he needs time and backing for me
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He will get time, the hierarchy have made a long term bet. Lets hope murder ball doesn't kill all the fans enthusiasm.
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2 in midfield is a theoretical set up I think it's OK if you have top players but for the rest of us I think the minimum is 3.
You get outnumbered then with only 3 at the back it's easy to play over and through the lines
If he wants to play 3 at the back with a high li e press it must be 352which as you guys know is my preference
That system is an attacking and defensive formation, but Val won't listen to me
I think if he sticks to his preffered set up we will still win the majority of games but we might have to wait for the top 2's blips
It's Albion we're used to hiding behind the sofa and watching through our fingers, I really want Val to succeed given time and money
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Did the Albion board give Val a 4 year contract because that’s how long it may take him to learn how to adapt as a manager?
I’m still bemused as to why the board went to all that trouble to pay compensation to Barnsley and award Val the 4 year contract, only to provide him with a cart horse like Jordan Hugill instead of Daryl Dike. Just baffles me.
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Did the Albion board give Val a 4 year contract because that’s how long it may take him to learn how to adapt as a manager?
I’m still bemused as to why the board went to all that trouble to pay compensation to Barnsley and award Val the 4 year contract, only to provide him with a cart horse like Jordan Hugill instead of Daryl Dike. Just baffles me.
I imagine that we gave him a 4 year contract because anything less would not have secured his services. Not sure the 'pay as you manage' contract our circus would have liked to have in place would have lured him. I also imagine that the vast majority of our 'competitive budget' that has been referred to has been taken up getting VI in, because there is no evidence to the contrary, ie players arriving.
I wouldn't hold your breathe in the forthcoming transfer window either, I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of Daryl Dike darkening our doorstep anytime soon, but I would absolutely love to be proven wrong.
I am tiring a little of some of VI's post match comments to be honest, I can understand them after a couple of games because the team was still in the learning phase, but they are starting to be the same excuses. Perhaps its a ploy to subconsciously tell the owner that they are not good enough, but the team should know what to do now, and we should be seeing the 'more to come' improvements he has insinuated.
We were beaten by a better side yesterday, and they will find it hard going into the premier league, so with this set up if we do go up and with no financial input from our esteemed leader we are going onto repeat cycle from last season.
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VI is far from perfect but he's trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear he has received no money to buy the players we are desperately short of a striker who can also lead the line and possibly a creative midfielder.
We would probably get away with just a striker one player to turn us into a genuine promotion contender, we all know who D Dike would be the perfect fit will our club do the sensible thing and get him in January somehow I can't see it happening.
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Good post.
Ismael, however, is shooting himself in the foot everytime he plays Hugill and Livermore. Time and again they've shown to be not good enough even for the Championship, we are carrying them.
There are other players on the bench / in the stands who are superior. Everytime this happens it's a slight on the Manager.
We've got virtually no chance of promotion if we start with sub-standard players from here on in.....
Lai doesn't pick the team.
Even this is questionable. I presume you mean Molomby and Robbo? If it is, it tells you everything about our squad depth. One is very untried, the other is NOT a CF in the way VI needs. As much as we all want him to be he makes little impact in that role.
Grady looks almost physically too fragile for this level and we are now at Reach, Bryan, Kipre and Button.
I'm struggling to find those superior players?
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Whilst I agree there has been a lack of investment in new players, we still have one of the highest wage bills in the league. We have some talented players here but we are not playing to their strengths. I’m pretty sure we could have bought in one or two more players but Val seemed happy with the squad.
Bournemouth also lost one of their key players and spent very little in the summer. The difference is they’ve appointed a footballing manager and recruited very well.
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I imagine that we gave him a 4 year contract because anything less would not have secured his services. Not sure the 'pay as you manage' contract our circus would have liked to have in place would have lured him. I also imagine that the vast majority of our 'competitive budget' that has been referred to has been taken up getting VI in, because there is no evidence to the contrary, ie players arriving.
I wouldn't hold your breathe in the forthcoming transfer window either, I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of Daryl Dike darkening our doorstep anytime soon, but I would absolutely love to be proven wrong.
I am tiring a little of some of VI's post match comments to be honest, I can understand them after a couple of games because the team was still in the learning phase, but they are starting to be the same excuses. Perhaps its a ploy to subconsciously tell the owner that they are not good enough, but the team should know what to do now, and we should be seeing the 'more to come' improvements he has insinuated.
We were beaten by a better side yesterday, and they will find it hard going into the premier league, so with this set up if we do go up and with no financial input from our esteemed leader we are going onto repeat cycle from last season.
And doesn’t that make our board look even more incompetent. They’ll blow a budget to secure a 3rd/4th choice manager on a lengthy contract but not provide him with the right tools to work with.
I don’t doubt the January 2022 transfer window will be another disgrace from the Albion. Personally, I feel the Albion fan base need to be more hostile towards this regime in an effort to speed up a parting of company.
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The style we have played so far shows us our most attacking player is our left wing back in Townsend , that can't be right for a side just relegated surely ? .
The majority of the time we miss out the midfield and try to hit the front three when not one of them is really suited to the system , Grant can finish at this level but look at his first touch under pressure .
VI is putting himself under pressure early for my money , you build a system with what you have not the other way around .
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Have you looked at our squad?
It is diabolical.
It isn’t good enough for auto promotion yet this guy has played us into the top 3 in the opening third of the season.
We don’t have quality footballers in midfield who will let us dominate the ball, so we play to our relative strengths. It also doesn’t help having a striker who can actually control the ball and link play.
He is far, far from Pulis and I’d like to see him work with some better quality.
Knowing us though we will probably sack him and get some journeyman in like we always seem to do.
You’ve got massive football clubs in this division and the one below who would give a left nut to be in the promotion fight and here we are complaining.
I think he’s punching us above our weight personally.
Excellent post, some of our fan base need a reality check.
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It's all about promotion on the cheap. Sell club in Prem if possible. Well you know who is going to be bitterly disappointed if we dont go up. VI was never the answer in my opinion. Unfortunately he met with the 'do it on the cheap' criteria our board needed.
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Under this owner we have broken our transfer fee 4 times I think , none under this manager and that doesn’t include wastage on Zohore , still whatever suits an agenda eh !?!?
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Under this owner we have broken our transfer fee 4 times I think , none under this manager and that doesn’t include wastage on Zohore , still whatever suits an agenda eh !?!?
And didn't we make a pigs ear of the lot........
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The style we have played so far shows us our most attacking player is our left wing back in Townsend , that can't be right for a side just relegated surely ? .
The majority of the time we miss out the midfield and try to hit the front three when not one of them is really suited to the system , Grant can finish at this level but look at his first touch under pressure .
VI is putting himself under pressure early for my money , you build a system with what you have not the other way around .
Yes but!
The side that got relegated had I think, 5 players who are no longer with us, and who are the only ones anywhere near the minimum standard we need. They were much better players than any of the the ones VI has to try to cobble into a team today.
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Yes but!
The side that got relegated had I think, 5 players who are no longer with us, and who are the only ones anywhere near the minimum standard we need. They were much better players than any of the the ones VI has to try to cobble into a team today
Agreed and I think many of us (and I include myself) forget this at times. I was all doom and gloom during the summer predicting a very poor season ahead unless we signed a few quality replacements. We didn’t but we made a cracking start anyway. I think we got carried away by our first few performances but they were just papering over cracks.
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Excellent post, some of our fan base need a reality check.
Reality is about the here and now.
GK - England no. 2
Back 3 - All would get into 80% of teams in this league
WB's - Townsend arguably our most consistent performer and most likely to be coveted in Jan. Furlong excellent one week, awful the next but his throw alone would, again, get him into 80% of teams in this league.
CM. Livermore, Snodgrass, Mowatt walk into 90% of teams in this league
Forwards - Robinson, Grant, Diangana 80%, Phillips, Hugill 70%
This is not a terrible squad for the league we are in.
The common denominator is the manager. He just doesn't react well when we are up against it and this is undeniable.
I started the season saying top 6 was nailed on, but top 2 was likely. I now think that top 2 is highly unlikely but top 6 is still nailed on and that is down to the coach, he is just too inexperienced and inflexible. I would, still be happy with that, if I thought it was a progressive, long term plan, but, the more I watch, the more I think the coach is actually making the players look worse, simply because of his lack of vision.
Whichever front 3 he picks struggle because the way we play suits none of them consistently. Some weeks they are unplayable but, against the more savvy managers, they barely get a kick.
If he wants to see out even 1 of his 4 years he needs to adapt.
Mind you, Super Farke will be available soon so surely, we should be doing everything to get him?
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Reality is about the here and now.
GK - England no. 2
Back 3 - All would get into 80% of teams in this league
WB's - Townsend arguably our most consistent performer and most likely to be coveted in Jan. Furlong excellent one week, awful the next but his throw alone would, again, get him into 80% of teams in this league.
CM. Livermore, Snodgrass, Mowatt walk into 90% of teams in this league
Forwards - Robinson, Grant, Diangana 80%, Phillips, Hugill 70%
This is not a terrible squad for the league we are in.
The common denominator is the manager. He just doesn't react well when we are up against it and this is undeniable.
I started the season saying top 6 was nailed on, but top 2 was likely. I now think that top 2 is highly unlikely but top 6 is still nailed on and that is down to the coach, he is just too inexperienced and inflexible. I would, still be happy with that, if I thought it was a progressive, long term plan, but, the more I watch, the more I think the coach is actually making the players look worse, simply because of his lack of vision.
Whichever front 3 he picks struggle because the way we play suits none of them consistently. Some weeks they are unplayable but, against the more savvy managers, they barely get a kick.
If he wants to see out even 1 of his 4 years he needs to adapt.
Mind you, Super Farke will be available soon so surely, we should be doing everything to get him?
Are we even allowed to mention this with a Head Coach in situ? Asking for a French friend 😂
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Reality is about the here and now.
GK - England no. 2
Back 3 - All would get into 80% of teams in this league
WB's - Townsend arguably our most consistent performer and most likely to be coveted in Jan. Furlong excellent one week, awful the next but his throw alone would, again, get him into 80% of teams in this league.
CM. Livermore, Snodgrass, Mowatt walk into 90% of teams in this league
Forwards - Robinson, Grant, Diangana 80%, Phillips, Hugill 70%
This is not a terrible squad for the league we are in.
The common denominator is the manager. He just doesn't react well when we are up against it and this is undeniable.
I started the season saying top 6 was nailed on, but top 2 was likely. I now think that top 2 is highly unlikely but top 6 is still nailed on and that is down to the coach, he is just too inexperienced and inflexible. I would, still be happy with that, if I thought it was a progressive, long term plan, but, the more I watch, the more I think the coach is actually making the players look worse, simply because of his lack of vision.
Whichever front 3 he picks struggle because the way we play suits none of them consistently. Some weeks they are unplayable but, against the more savvy managers, they barely get a kick.
If he wants to see out even 1 of his 4 years he needs to adapt.
Mind you, Super Farke will be available soon so surely, we should be doing everything to get him?
You may well be right about our individual players but I do not see it as you do regarding the manager. I think the issue is more about our lack of a quality creative midfielder and a proper CF
Val has a few hard working midfield players, one who can maybe win the ball, and one or two with greater mobility who can put a foot in and sometimes find the odd forward pass but no really creative midfielders who can regularly see or execute the pass to the feet or into the run of a forward to give him a chance on goal. Never mind players with the supreme ability of MP, just put a Krovi type into this team, get his midfield partner working with him to give him some protection, and watch Diangana's game pick up, watch Robinson get the sort of service to put him through on goal and his goal tally go up, and Grant be in the right place to more often to use his right foot and get even more goals. Add a reasonably skilled CF and watch us go. The defence ain't great, but with players showing for the easy pass in front of them and keeping it simple they will be ok in the Champs. If SJ leaves then we need a keeper with experience and ability to play the sweeper role well, and who is relatively comfortable with the ball at his feet.
VI is doing a good job with what he has managed to get together from free transfers and cheap loans, Him and the team deserve our backing not the back stabbing they are getting from some 'supporters' because we are not playing like a Champions League favourite.
Worry about the prem if we get there.
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Did Val actually want a creative midfielder or another striker? He seemed pretty happy with the squad. He talked about not having the best players but ones that would fit his system. I don’t see how a creative midfielder fits into a side that tries to bypass midfield completely. This is a manager who didn’t want either Pereira or Sawyers our most technically gifted midfielders.
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Did Val actually want a creative midfielder or another striker? He seemed pretty happy with the squad. He talked about not having the best players but ones that would fit his system. I don’t see how a creative midfielder fits into a side that tries to bypass midfield completely. This is a manager who didn’t want either Pereira or Sawyers our most technically gifted midfielders.
Pereira was gone once we were relegated and Sawyers failed us last season as for saying he was happy with the squad that's just a manager towing the club line no manager is ever entirely happy with his squad.
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Did Val actually want a creative midfielder or another striker? He seemed pretty happy with the squad. He talked about not having the best players but ones that would fit his system. I don’t see how a creative midfielder fits into a side that tries to bypass midfield completely. This is a manager who didn’t want either Pereira or Sawyers our most technically gifted midfielders.
I think he just wanted the job and, genuinely, thought he could replicate what he did at Barnsley with a bit extra on top.
What he's found is, ironically, you need the right players, with the right attitude and application, to play that system.
He had the perfect storm at Oakwell, players who rose to the challenge, punched above their weight and played the underdog card to perfection.
What he has now is a squad of, higher paid, seasoned pros, many of whom have played at a higher level, and seen managers come and go. Initially, they bought in, but, it appears the novelty soon wore off and they tired of the high energy, high workrate, relentless pace and squad rotation (specifically front 3).
We now have a neither here nor there hybrid which has lost the press and high energy, yet retained the high line and long ball.
If Val wants to have any chance of succeeding here, he has to find a way of, consistently, getting the best out of his better players#. That, most likely, means considering a change in formation. Has he got it in his locker? If not, I still expect us to comfortably finish top 6 and probably be favourites to win via play offs but, if we don't, I fear he will have few backers for another tilt next season.
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just put a Krovi type into this team, get his midfield partner working with him to give him some protection, and watch Diangana's game pick up, watch Robinson get the sort of service to put him through on goal and his goal tally go up, and Grant be in the right place to more often to use his right foot and get even more goals.
Great example there Wodenson. A by and large ineffective luxury squad player is the answer to Val’s problems. Good shout .
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For being able to turn with the ball, evade his marker and retain possession, in my judgement, Flip was better than Molumby is on current form. Of course as many have said, keeping the ball and passing in midfield doesn't seem to be a desired skill.
Molumby is certainly a better winner of the ball and could certainly replace Livermore
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I think he just wanted the job and, genuinely, thought he could replicate what he did at Barnsley with a bit extra on top.
What he's found is, ironically, you need the right players, with the right attitude and application, to play that system.
retained the high lineHe had the perfect storm at Oakwell, players who rose to the challenge, punched above their weight and played the underdog card to perfection.
What he has now is a squad of, higher paid, seasoned pros, many of whom have played at a higher level, and seen managers come and go. Initially, they bought in, but, it appears the novelty soon wore off and they tired of the high energy, high workrate, relentless pace and squad rotation (specifically front 3).
We now have a neither here nor there hybrid which has lost the press and high energy, yet
retained the high line and long ball.
[/b][/u]If Val wants to have any chance of succeeding here, he has to find a way of, consistently, getting the best out of his better players#. That, most likely, means considering a change in formation. Has he got it in his locker? If not, I still expect us to comfortably finish top 6 and probably be favourites to win via play offs but, if we don't, I fear he will have few backers for another tilt next season.
Nail on the head there mate.
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Nail on the head there mate.
The other point to note is that Val was appointed to replace Struber who is another high press manager, so this was a continuity appointment. Totally different to the situation here. The groundwork had allready been laid regarding style and playing staff.
Probably also worth noting that Barnsley have apparently tried to play in a more unpredictable way this season (quoting a Barnsley player from a presser) playing in a less direct style, and are bottom three having just sacked Val's replacement.
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I think he just wanted the job and, genuinely, thought he could replicate what he did at Barnsley with a bit extra on top.
What he's found is, ironically, you need the right players, with the right attitude and application, to play that system.
He had the perfect storm at Oakwell, players who rose to the challenge, punched above their weight and played the underdog card to perfection.
What he has now is a squad of, higher paid, seasoned pros, many of whom have played at a higher level, and seen managers come and go. Initially, they bought in, but, it appears the novelty soon wore off and they tired of the high energy, high workrate, relentless pace and squad rotation (specifically front 3).
We now have a neither here nor there hybrid which has lost the press and high energy, yet retained the high line and long ball.
If Val wants to have any chance of succeeding here, he has to find a way of, consistently, getting the best out of his better players#. That, most likely, means considering a change in formation. Has he got it in his locker? If not, I still expect us to comfortably finish top 6 and probably be favourites to win via play offs but, if we don't, I fear he will have few backers for another tilt next season.
I wholeheartedly agree with this - great post which accurately portrays my thoughts.
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Agree with Seteefeet
This move was always a better opportunity for VI than it was for us. A very good chance for him to get into the PL and I believe he felt with superior players he would get us up first time of asking.
Sadly his football is very much suited to the plucky underdog club like Barnsley at this level. It does not suit a team going for automatic promotion.
Have just read a new article that's gone up about him on the Athletic. Balanced and fair in my opinion. It says that VI must be more flexible. You cannot just play 1 formation forever and make the same subs every week at 60 mins in. Madeleynsays he needs to see substitutions as a chance to change the game and tactics not just fresh legs.
In defence of VI the article says the club did not provide him with the striker he desperately needs and Hugill is not the answer.
Can't disagree with that tbf
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Great example there Wodenson. A by and large ineffective luxury squad player is the answer to Val’s problems. Good shout .
Good footballers are never a luxury.
NB .my post mentioned a 'Krovi type' ]player, a player with intelligence and skill, not just strength and running, but not necessarily Krovi. Mowatt is our best option right now, a free transfer Championship player. Molumby in time might become the sort of player with these attributes.
Your preference then I take it, would be a midfield full of Livermore style work horses unable to take or make a pass, or retain possession of the ball, or turn away from an opponent, or create space for others, or make or score a few goals, nor be in position to take a short pass from a limited set of defenders and pass or bring the ball forward. A team without any players with the intelligence and ability that would allow us to play through the midfield - something we do not do now because we have only players with limited skills and a collective football intelligence to match your own. Without these types of player we have what we have now. You must be one of the many who are so enjoying the lack of football you are seeing. Or perhaps from your somewhat unnecessarily sarcastic comments obviously not seeng.
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Agree with Seteefeet
This move was always a better opportunity for VI than it was for us. A very good chance for him to get into the PL and I believe he felt with superior players he would get us up first time of asking.
Sadly his football is very much suited to the plucky underdog club like Barnsley at this level. It does not suit a team going for automatic promotion.
Have just read a new article that's gone up about him on the Athletic. Balanced and fair in my opinion. It says that VI must be more flexible. You cannot just play 1 formation forever and make the same subs every week at 60 mins in. Madeleynsays he needs to see substitutions as a chance to change the game and tactics not just fresh legs.
In defence of VI the article says the club did not provide him with the striker he desperately needs and Hugill is not the answer.
Can't disagree with that tbf
Has Madeley been reading .com and Unofficial again? Honestly think both forums should start charging him for royalties......... it would only be fair.
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Has Madeley been reading .com and Unofficial again? Honestly think both forums should start charging him for royalties......... it would only be fair.
It's crazy really. Everyone can see it but VI. Hey ho.
The article states that VI is considered to have great depth of knowledge as well so baffling why he never changes.
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Oddly enough Barnsley have just sacked their head coach as I typed the above.
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It's crazy really. Everyone can see it but VI. Hey ho.
The article states that VI is considered to have great depth of knowledge as well so baffling why he never changes.
He has a belief in this model of football and it's success. He has compromised somewhat, yes because of our opponents approach but also the limitations in the squad to play the way he wants consistently. I have no doubt that with a few additions of his choosing we would go back to full Valball but until those players are in place we will have this hybrid model which understandably doesn't quite have the impact.
What I can't see him doing is moving too far away from those key principles. And as I've posted elsewhere it's interesting that his replacement at Barnsley tried to move away from that direct style to make them more unpredictable all the way down to the bottom three and the sack (even giving that they also lost their best two players it's a big drop).
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He has a belief in this model of football and it's success. He has compromised somewhat, yes because of our opponents approach but also the limitations in the squad to play the way he wants consistently. I have no doubt that with a few additions of his choosing we would go back to full Valball but until those players are in place we will have this hybrid model which understandably doesn't quite have the impact.
What I can't see him doing is moving too far away from those key principles. And as I've posted elsewhere it's interesting that his replacement at Barnsley tried to move away from that direct style to make them more unpredictable all the way down to the bottom three and the sack (even giving that they also lost their best two players it's a big drop).
I accept every manager has a preferred way of playing but he needs to accept he's a player or 2 short of what he needs to make it a success. It's not helping anyone at the moment. Our squad is suited to better football than Valball so not sure why he can't see that.
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Good footballers are never a luxury.
NB .my post mentioned a 'Krovi type' ]player, a player with intelligence and skill, not just strength and running, but not necessarily Krovi. Mowatt is our best option right now, a free transfer Championship player. Molumby in time might become the sort of player with these attributes.
Your preference then I take it, would be a midfield full of Livermore style work horses unable to take or make a pass, or retain possession of the ball, or turn away from an opponent, or create space for others, or make or score a few goals, nor be in position to take a short pass from a limited set of defenders and pass or bring the ball forward. A team without any players with the intelligence and ability that would allow us to play through the midfield - something we do not do now because we have only players with limited skills and a collective football intelligence to match your own. Without these types of player we have what we have now. You must be one of the many who are so enjoying the lack of football you are seeing. Or perhaps from your somewhat unnecessarily sarcastic comments obviously not seeng.
Are we talking about the same Krovinivic? The one I watched in an Albion shirt was a pretty underwhelming performer!
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I accept every manager has a preferred way of playing but he needs to accept he's a player or 2 short of what he needs to make it a success. It's not helping anyone at the moment. Our squad is suited to better football than Valball so not sure why he can't see that.
it’s not though, it was quite successful playing Valball then over time it slowed down, increased the passing numbers with a lot less long balls and tried to start playing from the back and containing play up to the halfway
mark over Val’s preferred thousand mile an hour at all times. We have picked up a few old habits we used to show during the Moore/Bilic eras.
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it’s not though, it was quite successful playing Valball then over time it slowed down, increased the passing numbers with a lot less long balls and tried to start playing from the back and containing play up to the halfway
mark over Val’s preferred thousand mile an hour at all times. We have picked up a few old habits we used to show during the Moore/Bilic eras.
Valball was countered by Peterborough and Val has had no real answer. That means he needs to come up with different ideas. That is his job.
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Valball was countered by Peterborough and Val has had no real answer. That means he needs to come up with different ideas. That is his job.
and he has, not mine or his fault that you didn’t see it. As I said we currently play with habits closer to Bilic than early Val. Unsurprisingly the attack is about as effective.
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and he has, not mine or his fault that you didn’t see it. As I said we currently play with habits closer to Bilic than early Val. Unsurprisingly the attack is about as effective.
I will accept we are not seeing Valball v1.0, BUT what we are seeing is far removed from Bilic style football with possible exception of Brizzle.
Valball v2.0 still negates the need for midfield and requires a target man together with a significant % of aimless balls into "somewhat focal" areas of the pitch. More Allardyce than Bilic.
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and he has, not mine or his fault that you didn’t see it. As I said we currently play with habits closer to Bilic than early Val. Unsurprisingly the attack is about as effective.
He hasnt changed far enough is the point i am trying to make. Yes, it's not endless long ball anymore which is great but it's certainly not anywhere near Bilic side at it's best either.
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I will accept we are not seeing Valball v1.0, BUT what we are seeing is far removed from Bilic style football with possible exception of Brizzle.
Valball v2.0 still negates the need for midfield and requires a target man together with a significant % of aimless balls into "somewhat focal" areas of the pitch. More Allardyce than Bilic.
I understand the rugby union comparison, using the long ball to gain territory.
You would think, having gained territory, we would "swarm" the opposition at the subsequent throw in, but we just don't.
I paid particular attention to that at the Bristol City game.
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He hasnt changed far enough is the point i am trying to make. Yes, it's not endless long ball anymore which is great but it's certainly not anywhere near Bilic side at it's best either.
It's changed more than Val himself would want it to and given any support in the transfer window I would expect the team to end up veering much more back towards Valball than passing out through the lines. I have no issues with this, I was a fan of Slav and we had a fantastic first six months but teams found Slav out as well and we played some pretty average football after the Christmas period. Billic's own side were often not anywhere need his side at it's best.
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I understand the rugby union comparison, using the long ball to gain territory.
You would think, having gained territory, we would "swarm" the opposition at the subsequent throw in, but we just don't.
I paid particular attention to that at the Bristol City game.
yep, we seem to have adopted some form of weird hybrid, territory based but with no follow up? I don't get it personally. Maybe its just the players not deploying tactics correctly ?
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It's changed more than Val himself would want it to and given any support in the transfer window I would expect the team to end up veering much more back towards Valball than passing out through the lines. I have no issues with this, I was a fan of Slav and we had a fantastic first six months but teams found Slav out as well and we played some pretty average football after the Christmas period.
If Val didn't feel he was capable of making this squad work with his tactics he should not have took the job.
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If Val didn't feel he was capable of making this squad work with his tactics he should not have took the job.
Why? He was given a four year contract. That would suggest he is being given the time to shape his own squad. Doesn't seem that long ago that giving a manager time to bring in his own players was the norm.
Now I know we NEED to get back in the PL yesterday and not in four years time but this was specifically in response to your comment on taking the job.
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Why? He was given a four year contract. That would suggest he is being given the time to shape his own squad. Doesn't seem that long ago that giving a manager time to bring in his own players was the norm.
Now I know we NEED to get back in the PL yesterday and not in four years time but this was specifically in response to your comment on taking the job.
If we don't go up this year how is he going to reshape the squad next year with even less money than we have this year?
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If we don't go up this year how is he going to reshape the squad next year with even less money than we have this year?
He has constantly talked about getting the right players and not the best players. And let's face it we can't spend less than our transfer outlay this summer of precisely zero pounds and pence (yes again I know it wasn't zero if you take into account loan fees and wages).
I am though only really playing devils advocate here. I think Val needs time, and I think the owners will give him that as long as we are in the mix. However, I just can't see how he is going to reshape the side enough with the type of backing he got in the summer. I guess January will see some proof and pudding.
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He has constantly talked about getting the right players and not the best players. And let's face it we can't spend less than our transfer outlay this summer of precisely zero pounds and pence (yes again I know it wasn't zero if you take into account loan fees and wages).
I am though only really playing devils advocate here. I think Val needs time, and I think the owners will give him that as long as we are in the mix. However, I just can't see how he is going to reshape the side enough with the type of backing he got in the summer. I guess January will see some proof and pudding.
I understand what you are saying but our transfer network/dealings are abysmal. Val does need time but he also needs money. We have less money than time for my mind.
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Before Saturday we had one of the highest goals scored, and one of the better defense records. I appreciate we are 9 points from the top, but to put it in to context, Bournemouth have now equaled the best start to a championship season ever and the best for 15 years.
I still don't think its far from being a decent system at this level. I certainly don't think the players did it for 4 games and then gave up as has been suggested. I'm not sure it necessarily needs a collection of new players either though.
New players may well help us make it Barnsley 2.0, but I don't think that will ever work for the fanbase here. If VI adapts his tactics then I think we already have 95% of the players for something that will work.
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Here is a thought, VI arrives with a 4 year contract,
Ken:-, who do you need Val?
VI:- dunno till I see them perform BUT my old captain and top prospect Mowatt is out of contract, we would be mugs not to get him
Ken:- OK, we will go for him and re-assess in dec, ok?
VI:- yes but we might have a few probs appear in the interim,
Ken:- Ok assess them quick and we can go loans / kids until Jan, ok?
VI:- yep, by then I will know whats required and we can kick on then.
(Dara injury / Zohore lack of MF cover become the "few probs")
I know I am being mega optimistic in this conjecture, but its somewhat feasible.
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People saying we have to get back into the Prem then what?, we have owners who will not splash out to try and stabilize us in the top league.
Who have stabilized themselves in the top league without a significant outlay I can't think of any team that have played in the Championship in the last ten years who are now a solid prem team apart from West Ham and they have spent money we can only dream about.
The bottom line we are on a loop we try to get promoted to the Prem then are out of our depth when we get there doesn't matter who the manager is clubs with far more money than Albion are struggling in the Prem.
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People saying we have to get back into the Prem then what?, we have owners who will not splash out to try and stabilize us in the top league.
Who have stabilized themselves in the top league without a significant outlay I can't think of any team that have played in the Championship in the last ten years who are now a solid prem team apart from West Ham and they have spent money we can only dream about.
The bottom line we are on a loop we try to get promoted to the Prem then are out of our depth when we get there doesn't matter who the manager is clubs with far more money than Albion are struggling in the Prem.
Financially it keeps the club going and in terms of going up and down i don't care. If we are a top EFL club one season and a poor PL club the next i see nothing wrong with that. As long as we are where we should be in terms of quality.
I certainly would never accept just sitting in this rubbish league for the rest of time. Reducing to less and less year after year until the dark days of league 1 come calling again.
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Financially it keeps the club going and in terms of going up and down i don't care. If we are a top EFL club one season and a poor PL club the next i see nothing wrong with that. As long as we are where we should be in terms of quality.
I certainly would never accept just sitting in this rubbish league for the rest of time. Reducing to less and less year after year until the dark days of league 1 come calling again.
You are a realist because going up and down is about as good as it's going to get for Albion quite what the answer is to improve on that I don't know, I do feel we should use our academy more there is only one sure way to see if the kids are good enough the kid banging the goals in for the under 23s should at least be on the bench and given a few minutes here and there.
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People saying we have to get back into the Prem then what?, we have owners who will not splash out to try and stabilize us in the top league.
Who have stabilized themselves in the top league without a significant outlay I can't think of any team that have played in the Championship in the last ten years who are now a solid prem team apart from West Ham and they have spent money we can only dream about.
The bottom line we are on a loop we try to get promoted to the Prem then are out of our depth when we get there doesn't matter who the manager is clubs with far more money than Albion are struggling in the Prem.
We are in a loop that so many clubs, and their fans crave, to be in. It’s not ideal, but it’s so much better than what other fans are having to deal with. Optimism is still strong with our club. I’m an optimist. That’s the best I can do.
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You are a realist because going up and down is about as good as it's going to get for Albion quite what the answer is to improve on that I don't know, I do feel we should use our academy more there is only one sure way to see if the kids are good enough the kid banging the goals in for the under 23s should at least be on the bench and given a few minutes here and there.
Going up and down is better than slowly succumbing to league 1 or worse in my view KYA.
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Before Saturday we had one of the highest goals scored, and one of the better defense records. I appreciate we are 9 points from the top, but to put it in to context, Bournemouth have now equaled the best start to a championship season ever and the best for 15 years.
I still don't think its far from being a decent system at this level. I certainly don't think the players did it for 4 games and then gave up as has been suggested. I'm not sure it necessarily needs a collection of new players either though.
New players may well help us make it Barnsley 2.0, but I don't think that will ever work for the fanbase here. If VI adapts his tactics then I think we already have 95% of the players for something that will work.
I agree with all of this. We have to give VI plenty of time. We've chopped and changed far too much in the past and I still believe this 'administration' will start to pay off.
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We can just about afford to go up but there is no way on Earth we can afford to stay there. Going up keeps (football) life interesting, provides funding and puts us in the shop window. When the inevitable happens, we have a better chance of getting back than if we had not been in the greed league.
Like KYA I would like to see more home grown players coming through. Ideally to become players for us who are good enough get us up and even hopefully help stabilise us in the prem. Failing this miracle, at least developing into high value sales commodities.
Realistically yo-yoing is the best we can hope for until the prem implodes into something resembling a proper ability based league, rather than the ability to pay league. Or until we get bought by an owner who is a long term West Brom supporter, and is as wealthy as the Saudi royal family.
In the meantime why not give VI the time he needs to continue the improvements in fitness and intensity, and to get the players he needs to improve the speed of thought and passing ability in the team.
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We need money to get the players he needs. We barely have money this season and we won't have any of it next season if we don't go up.
Where is the money for new players coming from? I am happy to be corrected but don't we only get 16m next year or something like that?
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Would help if we had a director of football to help VI better valurs to be had from European and latin American leagues...
We are long overdue a transition and now the only "big earners" are; livermore, snodgrass, Phillips and johnstone. 2 of which are on a free come summer- we may even cash in on johnstone January.
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Would help if we had a director of football to help VI better valurs to be had from European and latin American leagues...
We are long overdue a transition and now the only "big earners" are; livermore, snodgrass, Phillips and johnstone. 2 of which are on a free come summer- we may even cash in on johnstone January.
The owner may even cash in on Johnstone, I suspect we will not be seeing any of that money either unfortunately.
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The owner may even cash in on Johnstone, I suspect we will not be seeing any of that money either unfortunately.
I think the first point may be a given - if he is not going to sign a new deal.
I think your second point is bang on too.
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You are a realist because going up and down is about as good as it's going to get for Albion quite what the answer is to improve on that I don't know, I do feel we should use our academy more there is only one sure way to see if the kids are good enough the kid banging the goals in for the under 23s should at least be on the bench and given a few minutes here and there.
If the club got the reputation for producing talent and playing attractive football in the Championship that would be some sort of achievement even if we eventually had to let the players go. Sales would mean that we wouldn't rely on parachute payments whose future is under threat. Better than the reputation of getting promotion with old pros, loanees and negative tactics and coming straight back down.
I think I would be not ecstatic but content with that. I don't know where developing talent and playing attractive football fits into Val's philosophy. Looks like we have a few seasons to find out.
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i know that this is simply romantic BUT
I much prefer my club to be one known (rightly or wrongly) for being well run, playing attractive football and having 'good" supporters, much rather that than being the butt of "whats the point of wba" jibes.
I have always been very proud to say I support Albion and get generally positive feedback fro fans of other clubs, we seem to be losing this and I find that very sad to be honest.
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i know that this is simply romantic BUT
I much prefer my club to be one known (rightly or wrongly) for being well run, playing attractive football and having 'good" supporters, much rather that than being the butt of "whats the point of wba" jibes.
I have always been very proud to say I support Albion and get generally positive feedback fro fans of other clubs, we seem to be losing this and I find that very sad to be honest.
Unfortunately its only one out of three at the moment Albionic
We already seem to be far removed from the team we had two years ago, and before that even the capped one was securing the services of some quality players [not that he knew what to do with them]. I do genuinely fear for us in the long term.
To cheer myself up I went onto a Norwich fansite earlier, now there is one very unhappy fanbase. It must be soul destroying watching them this year, but that will be us next year in the unlikely event that we do manage to blag a promotion spot.
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Unfortunately its only one out of three at the moment Albionic
We already seem to be far removed from the team we had two years ago, and before that even the capped one was securing the services of some quality players [not that he knew what to do with them]. I do genuinely fear for us in the long term.
To cheer myself up I went onto a Norwich fansite earlier, now there is one very unhappy fanbase. It must be soul destroying watching them this year, but that will be us next year in the unlikely event that we do manage to blag a promotion spot.
Norwich were lauded by many on here as the beacon of the first two and an example of what we should be. How they kept Farke whilst we sacked Bilic, showed long termism. Just shows that it's purely and simply down to money. Well run is great in the Championship but means nothing in the Greed League, you are either rich enough to compete or not.
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I haven't visited here since the Fulham game due to anger etc.
What I will say is this. Although Ismael isn't faultless, I think Saturday against Fulham was a complete write off due to the ref. If you give a side a free penalty and red card then it's almost impossible to do anything against. With this said, I won't judge him on that singular game. Aside from that, we shall see.
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If we don't get 6 pts from these 2 matches going into the break, then more questions are going to be asked.
Hull are totally lacking in confidence, haven't won in how long. Middlesboro have just been turned over by B'ham and Luton back to back.
Surely we are not going to have 2 more starts for Livermore, meaning 3 starts in 7 days?
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We are third in the league which means the manager is doing a good job. If you are complaining about the results then you are not being realistic.
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I am complaining about not picking the best 11 players.
Results will take care of themselves according to who you pick.
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I am complaining about not picking the best 11 players.
Results will take care of themselves according to who you pick.
I'm not happy with his team selection either but he is still doing a good job overall.
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I'm not happy with his team selection either but he is still doing a good job overall.
What happens when Mowatt is available? Livermore and Snodgrass stay in? It's not right.
It's a matter of time before we slip up v better class opposition.
Labouring for 70 mins v a poor team and limping over the line is not good and the reason is that we don't create from central areas, allied to only having one proper striker, who is extremely limited.
The fact that Hugill, is so poor means we need to make the other 10 players count!!!
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Does anyone else have weird feelings towards our club at present? Or is it just me? I reckon this is one of the worst Albion teams I've ever seen (and I've been going since 1968). The football is overall very average and predictable with almost no 'top-flight' quality on display at all, and its extremely dull and boring. Its starting to show in attendances.
And yet, here we are sitting 3rd in the league with every chance of earning promotion!! Hence the weirdness about my mood! Why am I so despondent? We should make the play-offs!
I just looked at the team sheet for the 2007 play-off final against Derby, the midfield was Koumas, Greening, Gera, and Koren....with Phillips up front. Light years away from what we've become IMO!
Thoughts appreciated! :D
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Does anyone else have weird feelings towards our club at present? Or is it just me? I reckon this is one of the worst Albion teams I've ever seen (and I've been going since 1968).
But presumably not between 1985 and 2002?
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Ask yourself this mate
How many teams out of the 92 play great fast flowing interpassing goals galore football?
Answer, very very few
What do you want great football to watch or top of league it always a question of balance
Top of the league for me then Poss good football sometimes
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Ask yourself this mate
How many teams out of the 92 play great fast flowing interpassing goals galore football?
Answer, very very few
What do you want great football to watch or top of league it always a question of balance
Top of the league for me then Poss good football sometimes
Man City and Liverpool and that is probably literally it. Maybe Chelsea. Look at the resources they have.
Watching us against Fulham on Saturday, Fulham didn't play any amazing football any better than we did last night that's for certain.
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Does anyone else have weird feelings towards our club at present? Or is it just me? I reckon this is one of the worst Albion teams I've ever seen (and I've been going since 1968). The football is overall very average and predictable with almost no 'top-flight' quality on display at all, and its extremely dull and boring. Its starting to show in attendances.
And yet, here we are sitting 3rd in the league with every chance of earning promotion!! Hence the weirdness about my mood! Why am I so despondent? We should make the play-offs!
I just looked at the team sheet for the 2007 play-off final against Derby, the midfield was Koumas, Greening, Gera, and Koren....with Phillips up front. Light years away from what we've become IMO!
Thoughts appreciated! :D
You think this team is worse than what we saw under the likes of Talbot, Gould and Buckley?
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You think this team is worse than what we saw under the likes of Talbot, Gould and Buckley?
or smith burkinshaw little allardyce?
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or smith burkinshaw little allardyce?
Or Pulis??
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You think this team is worse than what we saw under the likes of Talbot, Gould and Buckley?
I did say 'one of' the worst in my defence. My concern is that we're heading back towards those bleak days.
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Does anyone else have weird feelings towards our club at present? Or is it just me? I reckon this is one of the worst Albion teams I've ever seen (and I've been going since 1968). The football is overall very average and predictable with almost no 'top-flight' quality on display at all, and its extremely dull and boring. Its starting to show in attendances.
And yet, here we are sitting 3rd in the league with every chance of earning promotion!! Hence the weirdness about my mood! Why am I so despondent? We should make the play-offs!
I just looked at the team sheet for the 2007 play-off final against Derby, the midfield was Koumas, Greening, Gera, and Koren....with Phillips up front. Light years away from what we've become IMO!
Thoughts appreciated! :D
I think you are subconsciously looking at the bigger picture miggybaggy. You know that we are not that good but may get promoted, you also know that if we do go up we will get a new one torn for us on a weekly basis and that we will be back in the is league again by Christmas.
The sides under Buckley, Gould etc were clearly worse but strangely I have very fond memories of Super Bob, Andy Hunt and Mr Sneekes, and I enjoyed those times perhaps more than I should have. It was a time before the business boy moved in and had a lot more honesty about it.
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If the Manager picks Snodgrass / Livermore on Saturday then Boro become favourites IMO.
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Or Pulis??
Or Pardew or Saunders the list goes on.
With all due respect to the topic creator this is an absolutely illogical topic.
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We might have enough to end up in the playoffs but I wouldn't fancy our chances against any of the other play off sides.
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Thought it was Strange interview from VI, best we’ve been in possession?
Maybe statistically in terms of how much we had, but we weren’t good with the ball.
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Thought it was Strange interview from VI, best we’ve been in possession?
Maybe statistically in terms of how much we had, but we weren’t good with the ball.
Yeah I thought he meant % of possession. Just another danger of taking everything at face value when somebody is talking in a language other than their natural one
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I just looked at the team sheet for the 2007 play-off final against Derby, the midfield was Koumas, Greening, Gera, and Koren....with Phillips up front. Light years away from what we've become IMO!
THAT'S the bit. All of those, plus.. where's the Mulumbu in this squad? Even the Brunt, the Morrison, Olsson, Yacob? And that's not even going back to our glory days.
Given VI's resources, we're getting a silk purse.
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Or Pardew or Saunders the list goes on.
With all due respect to the topic creator this is an absolutely illogical topic.
It was me and that's precisely my point though! My own thoughts to where we're at right now are illogical....they don't make sense to me! I think VI is doing a brilliant job with what he's got and I should be pleased and optimistic, and yet I'm worried for our future within the football hierarchy as a whole.
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A find the VI - Pulis debate / comparison ridiculous perhaps comparing VI to Megson in set up terms would be better given allowances for the way the game has changed .
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I think you are subconsciously looking at the bigger picture miggybaggy. You know that we are not that good but may get promoted, you also know that if we do go up we will get a new one torn for us on a weekly basis and that we will be back in the is league again by Christmas.
The sides under Buckley, Gould etc were clearly worse but strangely I have very fond memories of Super Bob, Andy Hunt and Mr Sneekes, and I enjoyed those times perhaps more than I should have. It was a time before the business boy moved in and had a lot more honesty about it.
Thanks, I think you're right....I am looking at the bigger picture and can't stand the thought of us never being in a position to be competitive in the very top flight ever again. But on topic...I believe VI is doing well (mainly) with the players he has.
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Haven't commented in awhile but spend a lot of time seeing reactions on twitter which feel very OTT (Classic Twitter I know) and a lot of outrage at Val, the style of football etc.
I think for me, with our owners, the lack of investment, the ridiculous low fees for youngsters leaving, the dodgy deals that we are still waiting on (Hegazi) and how even after selling Pereira we have only signed loaness and free agents this summer... Im amazing that we are 3rd in all honeslty.
I think Val has done well with this limited squad in terms of strength in depth and even some of the first team names we have who I don't think are good enough.
Some games have been dreadful, but I feel he got a lot of criticism again for how we played last night even though we passed a lot more, kept hold of the ball a lot more and were much much more patient with our play.
Hull came for a point and were very deep and in the end that was a good win. Not amazing but a lot better than some are making out.
With the squads Fulham and Bournemouth have I'm just glad we are only a few wins behind, amazed actually at that.
Keep going Val
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There are apparently issues behind the scenes within the squad and VI.
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There are apparently issues behind the scenes within the squad and VI.
What’s been reported and where?
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We might have enough to end up in the playoffs but I wouldn't fancy our chances against any of the other play off sides.
Why?
We are currently 4 points ahead of 4th, six points ahead of 6th and ahead of them all on current form.
If the league finished now we would be massive favourites to win the play offs.
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There are apparently issues behind the scenes within the squad and VI.
I'd like to hear more about this. It wouldn't surprise me because we are not seeing the enthusiastic high press and pinning back into corners and what not that we had previously seen earlier in the season, it looks a little disjointed.
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Why?
We are currently 4 points ahead of 4th, six points ahead of 6th and ahead of them all on current form.
If the league finished now we would be massive favourites to win the play offs.
Stop talking sense mate!. The moaners don't wanna hear that!
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Why?
We are currently 4 points ahead of 4th, six points ahead of 6th and ahead of them all on current form.
If the league finished now we would be massive favourites to win the play offs.
I wouldn’t fancy us in the play offs at the minute. Some teams will be bouncing to be there, whereas negativity seems to surround us. If we are to finish in the play offs the whole mood needs to be better for us to be successful.
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I wouldn’t fancy us in the play offs at the minute. Some teams will be bouncing to be there, whereas negativity seems to surround us. If we are to finish in the play offs the whole mood needs to be better for us to be successful.
Don't see it that way myself, the players will be looking at a healthy bonus / rise on promotion, just don't see how they wouldnt give their all to reach the promised land.
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I'd like to hear more about this. It wouldn't surprise me because we are not seeing the enthusiastic high press and pinning back into corners and what not that we had previously seen earlier in the season, it looks a little disjointed.
This is all I know at the moment but if I get any further detail on it I will pass it on. What I have heard came from someone close to the squad on a matchday. Think of a pre-match entertainment duo ;)
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This is all I know at the moment but if I get any further detail on it I will pass it on. What I have heard came from someone close to the squad on a matchday. Think of a pre-match entertainment duo ;)
too cryptic for me
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There are apparently issues behind the scenes within the squad and VI.
This was discussed by Madeley (i'm pretty sure it was him anyway) about a week ago.
Of the rumours he said some players very much dislike his style of play, some players quite like it. However no personal problems though he said between the Valball hating players and VI himself. Just a dislike of his play style.
Things could have changed from then though of course.
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There are apparently issues behind the scenes within the squad and VI.
There have always been issues behind the scenes with managers at the Albion, it aye nothing new.
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There are apparently issues behind the scenes within the squad and VI.
At any point in time there are always issues with some faction in an office, on a building site , in the staff room or surprise , surprise in a football club. I await further elucidation.
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At any point in time there are always issues with some faction in an office, on a building site , in the staff room or surprise , surprise in a football club. I await further elucidation.
Well Zohore will definitely be 1, Kipre could be 2, other peripheral players will want to get opportunities. Some will not relish seeing the ball flying over there heads when they want to get it down and play it on the deck (Diangana).
As NJS says its entirely normal and arguably healthy for some to be dis-enchanted.
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If the Manager picks Snodgrass / Livermore on Saturday then Boro become favourites IMO.
I doubt he'll pick Snodgrass as he was quite poor against Hull and awful against Fulham. Livermore stays in on merit.
Ismael has already said that Mowatt won't be risked until after the international break so I'd expect/hope that it's Livermore and Molumby against Boro.
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I doubt he'll pick Snodgrass as he was quite poor against Hull and awful against Fulham. Livermore stays in on merit.
Ismael has already said that Mowatt won't be risked until after the international break so I'd expect/hope that it's Livermore and Molumby against Boro.
Agree 100 per cent. Sadly, Snodgrass isn’t what he was and should be used sparingly.
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Unless we are absolutely desperate I never want to see the combination of these 2 starting together again. It's awful. One of them with Mowatt or Moloumby but not together if we can help it.
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too cryptic for me
He is getting his inside gen from a boiler I think...... ;D
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This is all I know at the moment but if I get any further detail on it I will pass it on. What I have heard came from someone close to the squad on a matchday. Think of a pre-match entertainment duo ;)
Entertainment? At the Shrine? Novel idea. With apologies to Mr V Meldrew - 'I don't belieeeve it!'
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He is getting his inside gen from a boiler I think...... ;D
Ah ! the entertainment bit threw me. Cheers
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Ah ! the entertainment bit threw me. Cheers
I guess its classed as a leak.......
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I think any of the front 3 would be a bit annoyed, simply by the early substitutions and rotation, let alone the constant chasing into the channels.
In fact, I would have had Grant as one of the disgruntled, yet he is on his best run of scoring form, for us, by a mile.
Robinson and Grady look off the pace though, so they could be disgruntled.
Same applies to the back 3 I suppose as the high line leaves then very exposed. In terms of body language Ajayi looks the most out of sorts.
Furlong has also looked desperate a few times of late.
Perhaps Val has taken it on board and adapted, hence the reduction of the press and more playing out from the back. Interesting, although, completely speculative.
On a positive though, if we are 3rd with half the squad sulking, imagine where we'd be with a fully on board bunch!
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I guess its classed as a leak.......
....... that or someone somewhere has air in their pipes.
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I think any of the front 3 would be a bit annoyed, simply by the early substitutions and rotation, let alone the constant chasing into the channels.
In fact, I would have had Grant as one of the disgruntled, yet he is on his best run of scoring form, for us, by a mile.
Robinson and Grady look off the pace though, so they could be disgruntled.
Same applies to the back 3 I suppose as the high line leaves then very exposed. In terms of body language Ajayi looks the most out of sorts.
Furlong has also looked desperate a few times of late.
Perhaps Val has taken it on board and adapted, hence the reduction of the press and more playing out from the back. Interesting, although, completely speculative.
On a positive though, if we are 3rd with half the squad sulking, imagine where we'd be with a fully on board bunch!
For me I don't think VI has done anybody any favours hooking Robinson at the usual 60 min sub (or it seems like it ) , our forwards aren't great but Robinson is the most suited to the front three blend of trying to score or create even if he's struggling a bit plus has both decent pace and stamina going late into games . He must have 4 or 5 assists this season , needs more goals though which may well come now we are trying to keep the ball down a bit more which is pleasing .
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Having revisited the game on the OS, I think that we played quite well. Apart from a few teams, every game in the Championship is going to be a scrap, it will never be pretty but we created a decent number of chances and half-chances (I think these are now known as XG?) Hull City FC has evolved over its sojourn in the Championship into a fine exponent of Pulisball. It couldn't make its late surge pay off because its players aren't used to an attacking mindset whereas with Valball at least the players get more touches near the opponent's goal. Valball does seem to be evolving given the stats
Special mention to Reach and TGH.
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For me I don't think VI has done anybody any favours hooking Robinson at the usual 60 min sub (or it seems like it ) , our forwards aren't great but Robinson is the most suited to the front three blend of trying to score or create even if he's struggling a bit plus has both decent pace and stamina going late into games . He must have 4 or 5 assists this season , needs more goals though which may well come now we are trying to keep the ball down a bit more which is pleasing .
I must be getting my substitutions mixed up because I could have sworn it was Robinson who set Grant up for his goal in the 69th minute before being replaced by Grady Diangana on the 88th :-X .
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....... that or someone somewhere has air in their pipes.
I think boilerman would know all about pressure within the team.....
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Robinson is a hard one for a manager I would guess. He is neither a centre forward nor a wide player he must be very difficult to fit in to a starting eleven so on that basis I can see why he gets regularly hooked particularly for somebody who has a more definite role / position .
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He is getting his inside gen from a boiler I think...... ;D
Or a large bird. ;D
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I must be getting my substitutions mixed up because I could have sworn it was Robinson who set Grant up for his goal in the 69th minute before being replaced by Grady Diangana on the 88th :-X .
Ditto, definitely Robbo squared the ball onto Grant, was a bit surprising Robbo didnt have a pop himself TBH
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Ditto, definitely Robbo squared the ball onto Grant, was a bit surprising Robbo didnt have a pop himself TBH
Quite probably because he’d not long missed a half decent chance .
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I must be getting my substitutions mixed up because I could have sworn it was Robinson who set Grant up for his goal in the 69th minute before being replaced by Grady Diangana on the 88th :-X .6
I meant in general Dan , hence my point about he keeps going stamina wise . Stats may prove me wrong but it feels like Phillips and Grant get longer .
Not one of them is the answer though.
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I meant in general Dan , hence my point about he keeps going stamina wise . Stats may prove me wrong but it feels like Phillips and Grant get longer .
Not one of them is the answer though.
Long response alert ;D .
I've no idea how two bouts of Covid have affected Callum or whether those bouts will catch up with him at a later date. What I do know is it's a long old season and his international manager has already leaned on him quite heavily. Ridiculously so in my opinion as I've mentioned before despite having opportunities to rest him. And he'll do it again.
Phillips and Grant have played more, much more in Grant's case. But neither of them play international football and neither to my knowledge has had Covid. Phillips meanwhile has a very chequered history of injury and loss of form. Different players, different physiques and different personal circumstances with all though.
One forward player who could complain about game time in my opinion is Diangana, another who doesn't play internationally. What he can't argue with is that despite drawing players on to create space for others he hasn't really delivered. One assist and no goals to date. It's also worth remembering he's not particularly robust and requires careful management.
Another forward, one who's quite robust, has even less playing time than Grady. Apart from one goal from a selection of decent chances and some intelligent contributions in build up play, he hasn't really delivered so can't complain either though.
So given we can't rely on anything on a consistent basis from Zohore we've got five first team squad forwards there. Three of whom in Robinson, Phillips and Diangana have varying needs of rotation within a physically demanding system.
Grant is now scoring on a regular basis but Hugill isn't doing much of anything. Other than match rhythm I can't see a problem with rotating them in the way VI has. If anything we'd be better off with five subs and even more rotation. Here's hoping Tulloch can stay injury free and make his claim for a return to match day squads.
Tara a bit 8) .
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Long response alert ;D .
I've no idea how two bouts of Covid have affected Callum or whether those bouts will catch up with him at a later date. What I do know is it's a long old season and his international manager has already leaned on him quite heavily. Ridiculously so in my opinion as I've mentioned before despite having opportunities to rest him. And he'll do it again.
Phillips and Grant have played more, much more in Grant's case. But neither of them play international football and neither to my knowledge has had Covid. Phillips meanwhile has a very chequered history of injury and loss of form. Different players, different physiques and different personal circumstances with all though.
One forward player who could complain about game time in my opinion is Diangana, another who doesn't play internationally. What he can't argue with is that despite drawing players on to create space for others he hasn't really delivered. One assist and no goals to date. It's also worth remembering he's not particularly robust and requires careful management.
Another forward, one who's quite robust, has even less playing time than Grady. Apart from one goal from a selection of decent chances and some intelligent contributions in build up play, he hasn't really delivered so can't complain either though.
So given we can't rely on anything on a consistent basis from Zohore we've got five first team squad forwards there. Three of whom in Robinson, Phillips and Diangana have varying needs of rotation within a physically demanding system.
Grant is now scoring on a regular basis but Hugill isn't doing much of anything. Other than match rhythm I can't see a problem with rotating them in the way VI has. If anything we'd be better off with five subs and even more rotation. Here's hoping Tulloch can stay injury free and make his claim for a return to match day squads.
Tara a bit 8) .
Good posts Dan , didnt mention weights or tots once. ;D
Shorter reply alert , good point about R.O.I and Robinson .
That said out of the 3 or 4 options we have he offers both a chance of a goal ( dipped lately ) or more to the point creating something which as we have little from midfield is key . I'm no fan of 3 up top or this system without the players but Robinson is our best option IMO.
It does seem VI is keen on starting Phillips but he is due his usual dip in form / bull in a china shop .
I think we are both saying Vals attacking options are limited .
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Even against Hull early on, the movement of Robinson and the way he's always looking for the ball is world's away from Hugill. Robinson is always dropping into the little pocket, laying off, spinning in looking for a return pass, etc. If only the rest of the forward line had his awareness of movement we'd look a lot better.
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Sorry I don’t see that in Robinson . I see somebody that doesn’t show for the ball and is distinctly lacking in bravery , has a poor first touch,he’s never prepared to take a whack and win a free kick ,maybe not a popular view but it’s what I see
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Even against Hull early on, the movement of Robinson and the way he's always looking for the ball is world's away from Hugill. Robinson is always dropping into the little pocket, laying off, spinning in looking for a return pass, etc. If only the rest of the forward line had his awareness of movement we'd look a lot better.
I saw that too and commented on it in the in match chat. Complete lack of service from the midfield. I wonder if VI has studied how the ROI manager plays him, both of his goals against Azerbaijan came from him playing in a similar position to Grant and looking for the ball.
Pity we have not got a certain Mattheus Pereira here to supply him.
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Sorry I don’t see that in Robinson . I see somebody that doesn’t show for the ball and is distinctly lacking in bravery , has a poor first touch,he’s never prepared to take a whack and win a free kick ,maybe not a popular view but it’s what I see
Dunno, watch him next time, if there's one thing I wouldn't accuse him of it's hiding from the ball. He never stops making runs looking for it.
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Watched the goal on the highlights. Didn't seat at the game, but Robbo looks across at Grant as the ball comes to him and immediately hits a good pass into his run and Grant converts. Shows real awareness of what is happening around him. Nothing wrong with his first touch in many of the goals he scored in the prem or the champs, or for NI. Remember his goal against Chelsea for us in the prem. I do not think VI has a better option at present, so my preference would unless he is obviously struggling, be to give him the full 90 when possible,
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Dunno, watch him next time, if there's one thing I wouldn't accuse him of it's hiding from the ball. He never stops making runs looking for it.
Got a decent first touch imo too , underated here.
Suspect he might make way for Hugill though with Val switching them around as he does.
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Robbo is an inside right
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Watched the goal on the highlights. Didn't seat at the game, but Robbo looks across at Grant as the ball comes to him and immediately hits a good pass into his run and Grant converts. Shows real awareness of what is happening around him. Nothing wrong with his first touch in many of the goals he scored in the prem or the champs, or for NI. Remember his goal against Chelsea for us in the prem. I do not think VI has a better option at present, so my preference would unless he is obviously struggling, be to give him the full 90 when possible,
Minor point perhaps but Callum Robinson doesn't represent NI on international duty. He represents himself, West Bromwich Albion and the Republic of Ireland (ROI).
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Think VI like previous managers has under utilized Robinson. Considering his lack of game time he has 5 assists. Movement good and never hides.
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Long response alert ;D .
I've no idea how two bouts of Covid have affected Callum or whether those bouts will catch up with him at a later date. What I do know is it's a long old season and his international manager has already leaned on him quite heavily. Ridiculously so in my opinion as I've mentioned before despite having opportunities to rest him. And he'll do it again.
Phillips and Grant have played more, much more in Grant's case. But neither of them play international football and neither to my knowledge has had Covid. Phillips meanwhile has a very chequered history of injury and loss of form. Different players, different physiques and different personal circumstances with all though.
One forward player who could complain about game time in my opinion is Diangana, another who doesn't play internationally. What he can't argue with is that despite drawing players on to create space for others he hasn't really delivered. One assist and no goals to date. It's also worth remembering he's not particularly robust and requires careful management.
Another forward, one who's quite robust, has even less playing time than Grady. Apart from one goal from a selection of decent chances and some intelligent contributions in build up play, he hasn't really delivered so can't complain either though.
So given we can't rely on anything on a consistent basis from Zohore we've got five first team squad forwards there. Three of whom in Robinson, Phillips and Diangana have varying needs of rotation within a physically demanding system.
Grant is now scoring on a regular basis but Hugill isn't doing much of anything. Other than match rhythm I can't see a problem with rotating them in the way VI has. If anything we'd be better off with five subs and even more rotation. Here's hoping Tulloch can stay injury free and make his claim for a return to match day squads.
Tara a bit 8) .
This is a great post mate 👏
I agree entirely too. I’m not too bothered by some of the changes that happen.
In a high press I’d expect to be making a sub at that time, Robbo should be a starter but too many times he goes missing in games, but he does have that knack of producing something from nothing be it a touch, a run, or a finish.
The biggest issue we have is the ST position. I’m not going to criticise Hugill though, he just doesn’t possess all the attributes we need from a ST. Someone like a Marc Antoine Fortune would work well in this side.
VI needs set about fixing that on Jan and the board need to back him with it.
Let’s not forget this is still all new for the players, adjustments here and there from both the manager and the players will continue for a while I think.
Just need to stay in touch, like we are and I think we will come good
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Minor point perhaps but Callum Robinson doesn't represent NI on international duty. He represents himself, West Bromwich Albion and the Republic of Ireland (ROI).
Of course you are correct sir! Not at all minor if you belong to either of those Nations. My failing brain I am afraid for which I humbly (well as humbly as I ever get or have ever been) apologise. :)
edit: By the way thanks for paying enough attention to my ramblings to spot my error 8)
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Even against Hull early on, the movement of Robinson and the way he's always looking for the ball is world's away from Hugill. Robinson is always dropping into the little pocket, laying off, spinning in looking for a return pass, etc. If only the rest of the forward line had his awareness of movement we'd look a lot better.
Yep. Agree with that. Robinson's movement and link up play is what is needed. That is vital in and around the box for setting up chances. Look at how Robinson set up Grant's second v QPR. We can't just rely on Townsend and Furlong crosses from the flanks.
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Is that Livermore dropped from starting line up? Or are my eyes deceiving me :P
Well done gaffer!
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Reports that he is injured.
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Livermore has a tight hamstring so not risking him Masi said
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I'm not surprised - 90 min games back-to-back at his age doesn't work
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He's out his depth I'm afraid.
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He's out his depth I'm afraid.
He is. One trick pony sadly, i quite like the guy on some levels but to have NO plan B or other way of playing is unacceptable.
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This isn’t a good fit between club and manager.
Val’s too inexperienced for me. Even if by some good fortune we went up, we’d sack him early on into the season anyway and start the whole Groundhog Day again.
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He’s got the 3rd best squad in the league sat 3rd in the table. It’s not particularly enjoyable to watch but give this squad to Bilic, Silva, Parker or Farke and I don’t think any of them would finish above that top 2. Let’s be honest, our best players are the likes of Johnstone, Townsend and Grant…
The squad is slowly getting worse and without a change of ownership or an overhaul of the recruitment process then I don’t really get the point in constantly sacking head coaches.
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Rush football clearly doesn’t work when you have over 70% possession lack of ability to change things around is a concern and top two are wandering off into sunset.
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The Val out stuff is absolutely asinine in my opinion. Comfortably 3rd right now. And Fulham and Bournemouth appear to be on record setting paces.
I have no clue what a new manager would accomplish
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Can’t stand watching this football and stubbornness and football isn’t a good mix. Couldn’t understand the appointment at the time and still can’t now. He’s not going anywhere with the investment we’ve made in him unfortunately.
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The Val out stuff is absolutely asinine in my opinion. Comfortably 3rd right now. And Fulham and Bournemouth appear to be on record setting paces.
I have no clue what a new manager would accomplish
Something remotely watchable would be nice.
Players do not look happy or comfortable.
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Something remotely watchable would be nice.
Players do not look happy or comfortable.
what does that even mean?
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I honestly think at this rate we'll drop out of the play-offs if we continue with Ismael.
For me, his first few games were good and his strategy was working. Then teams sussed him out, and his high tempo style just couldn't continue so now we're looking much worse for it. For several games now we've looked poor - and that's win, lose or draw. I would still give him time to turn things round as it's not quite disaster territory just yet and hopefully he changes and tweaks things. However, I am not optimistic.
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what does that even mean?
Just another fan unable to accept that the manager has done a good job to get us up to third.
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Said it before. We won’t go up under this manager. We have zero identity or tactical nous.
Still no idea what the famous philosophy is.
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Boro
Brum
Millwall
Derby (1st half)
Hull
Stoke
QPR
Preston
Peterborough
These are the games that our performances have been at their absolute worst. Every single team could hand the same tape around on how we play - we’re so bloody predictable. The only thing I’ll say is that we’ve somehow squeezed 4 narrow wins out of the above.
You can always play poorly but this is a sustained period of poor performances and coupled with a manager who plays the same way and shows the tactical flexibility of granite, I sense that this isn’t going to change anytime soon.
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Boro
Brum
Millwall
Derby (1st half)
Hull
Stoke
QPR
Preston
Peterborough
These are the games that our performances have been at their absolute worst. Every single team could hand the same tape around on how we play - we’re so bloody predictable. The only thing I’ll say is that we’ve somehow squeezed 4 narrow wins out of the above.
You can always play poorly but this is a sustained period of poor performances and coupled with a manager who plays the same way and shows the tactical flexibility of granite, I sense that this isn’t going to change anytime soon.
Indeed. And fans will vote with their feet. Boro could easily have won it at the end today, and we were lucky against Hull. I worry for our future.
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Time we stopped blaming the manager and started looking at how good some of these players really are. It is very difficult to fashion any sort of side when numerous players cannot do the basics or even look like they know what the basics are . The inability of many to control a ball or pass accurately over 10 yards is mind boggling !!
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Time we stopped blaming the manager and started looking at how good some of these players really are. It is very difficult to fashion any sort of side when numerous players cannot do the basics or even look like they know what the basics are . The inability of many to control a ball or pass accurately over 10 yards is mind boggling !!
It's the setup, most of these players got promoted 2 seasons ago. Even today there were small periods when we got the ball down, passed it around and we looked great for it. Val needs to trust his players to play football and support them with a better set of tactics.
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what does that even mean?
Is it not simple English?
I'll break it down for you.
The football is not remotely good to watch.
If a new manager could get this group of players to play football that was remotely good to watchz.
That would be nice.
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It's the setup, most of these players got promoted 2 seasons ago. Even today there were small periods when we got the ball down, passed it around and we looked great for it. Val needs to trust his players to play football and support them with a better set of tactics.
Controlling a ball , passing to somebody in the same team 10 yards away are nothing to do with systems . Robinson and Grant were absolutely useless not because of the system but because they cannot do the basics with any amount of consistency
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Just another fan unable to accept that the manager has done a good job to get us up to third.
Like you were unable to see that Bilic was doing a bad job? Oh the irony.
I have been supportive of VI but the football now is just confused.
The fans don't look happy and the players don't look happy, that's usually the beginning of the end.
I don't actually want him gone, I want him to wise up and realise that 343 is not the best for these players.
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Tonights post match comments from VI blame our injury list.
Bryan, O'Shea, Mowatt and Livermore all out.
Says once we get some bodies back we have more possibilties to improve performances with Mowatt and Livermore back after break and of course the front 3 need to be better. He knew this when he took the job and then said he was happy we got Hugill. He's not wrong but why keep bringing it up when you knew all about it.
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It's the setup, most of these players got promoted 2 seasons ago. Even today there were small periods when we got the ball down, passed it around and we looked great for it. Val needs to trust his players to play football and support them with a better set of tactics.
“Same players that got us promotedâ€. We are actually on pace for more points this season than our promotion season. 86 vs 83. It’s just that Fulham and Bournemouth are both on record pace and are smashing the league.
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Surely it is part of the head coaches role to improve players and not just depend on getting the “best†players back.
There has to more to being in his job than deciding upon a tactic and getting the best players on the pitch.
I am struggling to see what VI is adding currently
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Controlling a ball , passing to somebody in the same team 10 yards away are nothing to do with systems . Robinson and Grant were absolutely useless not because of the system but because they cannot do the basics with any amount of consistency
Just got back, I agree with you 100%, that's exactly what I got from today's game.
I'm not seeing too much kick and rush or hoofball.
I thought Robinson was unlucky on Wednesday, the things he tried just didn't come off, but today, even the basics were poor, along with most of his colleagues.
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Is it not simple English?
I'll break it down for you.
The football is not remotely good to watch.
If a new manager could get this group of players to play football that was remotely good to watchz.
That would be nice.
but what does "good to watch" mean? it's entirely subjective and you broke down nothing instead just repeated your first point. we tried 1000 mile an hour attack football, people didn't like it, now we're using a slower passing and possession system similar to Moore and Bilic and apparently you don't like that either.
What do you specifically want?
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Surely it is part of the head coaches role to improve players and not just depend on getting the “best†players back.
There has to more to being in his job than deciding upon a tactic and getting the best players on the pitch.
I am struggling to see what VI is adding currently
there really isn't, it's a simple game made to look difficult.
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Some on here want ' good football' wtf is that?
Nice pretty passing football is great but it does not guarantee points, so stop having a go at the new coach
Where did you think we would be in this league by now, I reckon you would be made up with 3rd.
So what's it to be constant bitching about our play or happy in 3rd and waiting for it to click?
Top 2 have to hit their poor form yet I think we're in ours so on the positive side the best is yet to come for us
Were not even halfway yet and the doomsters are chatting that the end of our world is nigh, don't you know we are Albion, its a nightmare being an Albion fan always has been but at least Val is trying to go forward and attack, wait till we get a cf in Jan, just try and stop this constant moaning, if you don't like the football don't go to the match, but you can't stop can you cause your Albion!
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but what does "good to watch" mean? it's entirely subjective and you broke down nothing instead just repeated your first point. we tried 1000 mile an hour attack football, people didn't like it, now we're using a slower passing and possession system similar to Moore and Bilic and apparently you don't like that either.
What do you specifically want?
I've said all along that we are nailed on top 6 and that remains, and, if I was just looking at results, I would probably be happy but, I watch every game, either in the ground or on TV so I want to enjoy watching my team.
I want us to have a plan and a purpose that gets the best out of these players. I want us to adapt when things aren't going well. I want football that gets me off my seat now and again.
What we are seeing now is boring, repetitive, predictable and unproductive. Both Moore and Bilic used different systems, Ishmael point blank refuses and that's what frustrates me. He's losing the fans, hence the boos, and i believe he's losing the players and that never ends well.
Make this clear, I want him to do well but we are getting worse as the games go by.
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Controlling a ball , passing to somebody in the same team 10 yards away are nothing to do with systems . Robinson and Grant were absolutely useless not because of the system but because they cannot do the basics with any amount of consistency
Except we know Robinson can do the basics with consistency, we've seen it. Was Bilic some kind of miracle worker who got Robbo to pass it 10 yards when he can't? We know Grant can, as he's done it at this level.
So what else is it? They've not forgotten how to kick a football. It's much more likely to do with the system. Receiving the ball with your back to goal 35 hards out is very different to having it played in front of you for you to run at defenders.
Having multiple options for passes is very different to only having 1 or 2 closely marked players to pick out. Likewise being in a team that's freely creating chances means you're less likely to try forcing the issue.
Of course, sometimes players just have off days when nothing seems to work out, it doesn't mean they can't pass a ball 10 yards anymore.
Robinson, Grant, Diangana, Phillips are a great set of forwards for pretty much any team in this division. We need a strong CF, and to play to our strengths is all.
If you had to pick the most unsuitable attacking tactic for our forwards you'd pick "just smash it long and let them chase it down".
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Some on here want ' good football' wtf is that?
Nice pretty passing football is great but it does not guarantee points, so stop having a go at the new coach
Where did you think we would be in this league by now, I reckon you would be made up with 3rd.
So what's it to be constant bitching about our play or happy in 3rd and waiting for it to click?
Top 2 have to hit their poor form yet I think we're in ours so on the positive side the best is yet to come for us
Were not even halfway yet and the doomsters are chatting that the end of our world is nigh, don't you know we are Albion, its a nightmare being an Albion fan always has been but at least Val is trying to go forward and attack, wait till we get a cf in Jan, just try and stop this constant moaning, if you don't like the football don't go to the match, but you can't stop can you cause your Albion!
I’ve read the thread and haven’t seen anyone state they want pretty passing football, just something that is effective with our players, this is not.
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Things we have learnt -
1) Interchanging the defenders doesn't really make much difference, they are all pretty much on the same level, however someone like Kipre could get better, while Bartley will decline.
2) We don't have a good striker, Hugill is just not up to it, the rest are wingers playing out of position.
3) Snodgrass is too old as a regular starter, Livermore is not able to start midweek and weekend matches back to back.
4) Mowatt and O'Shea are proving to be a big miss.
In summary, goals and creativity are going to be at a premium until Jan 22 at least. The biggest single thing we can do is pcik the best midfield combination which is Mowatt & Molumby.
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Just another fan unable to accept that the manager has done a good job to get us up to third.
Or another fan with a different opinion to you?
Post something productive rather than having a pop at others. Again.
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We've got Mowett and O'Shea out a d we're still 3rd
How would Fulham and Bournemouth get on with their top 2 players, let's wait and see eh?
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Things we have learnt -
1) Interchanging the defenders doesn't really make much difference, they are all pretty much on the same level, however someone like Kipre could get better, while Bartley will decline.
2) We don't have a good striker, Hugill is just not up to it, the rest are wingers playing out of position.
3) Snodgrass is too old as a regular starter, Livermore is not able to start midweek and weekend matches back to back.
4) Mowatt and O'Shea are proving to be a big miss.
In summary, goals and creativity are going to be at a premium until Jan 22 at least. The biggest single thing we can do is pcik the best midfield combination which is Mowatt & Molumby.
I think that’s accurate except to add that re point 1 a vital factor should be how effective they are at set pieces because that’s where a crucial element of our goals is going to come from without a proper striker.
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“Same players that got us promotedâ€. We are actually on pace for more points this season than our promotion season. 86 vs 83. It’s just that Fulham and Bournemouth are both on record pace and are smashing the league.
That is precisely the point. If only one of those two clubs was smashing the league we’d be top 2 and nobody would be wetting their knickers. We cannot control what those two clubs do except when we play against them.
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I am happy to be corrected as I only watch highlights and streams where you don't get the full picture, but it seems to me that the formation and roles stay set more or less in concrete and each role has quite specific instructions to be followed on pain of the Wrath of Val. If that's the case someone needs to remind him that the one time he blatantly tore up the rule book Ajayi got the winner at Peterboro.
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Thoughts after my first live game...
My main gripe - we looked passive. In our first few games it appeared there was a "philosophy" with an intensity embraced but that has become less and less as time goes on and the identity that VI wanted to embed into the team is either being met with resistance or the players are shattered. Neither is great.
I also feel VI is working with a group of pretty average players with 1 or 2 above average, and we're 3rd, we're not cut off and I'd have taken 6 points from 2nd when he took over. The slip must be addressed though.
I hope the 2 week break now can allow us to recoup, find a best 11 and work very hard with that 11 on the philosophy and intensity. Where's the swarm, can we have that back?
So I sympathise with the fans that go week in week out, the players aren't performing but I hope the boos aren't solely aimed at VI, as I don't believe he deserves that. The board however, they've thrown Val under the bus.
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If player’s’ are tired why isn’t coach utilising his bench? Again we only used two subs yesterday. Rotation of squad is usually at a minimum with only injuries and suspensions affecting first team lineup. Fringe player’s seem to be given little opportunity’s especially the younger lads no matter how team play.
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My personal opinion is that the players aren’t comfortable in what they’re being told to do, there are multiple players being shoehorned into positions they’re struggling to work within rather than the system reflecting their strengths.
Our midfield is constantly outnumbered due to us having an extra centre back, Snodgrass is regular talking to the bench and pointing this out as we struggle to get a grip on the game.
The body language out there is one of struggle, unhappiness and frustration.
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That is precisely the point. If only one of those two clubs was smashing the league we’d be top 2 and nobody would be wetting their knickers. We cannot control what those two clubs do except when we play against them.
You can’t dismiss what Fulham and Bournmouth are doing completely. I think it demonstrates how poor the league is.
I don’t think we should be top two, but I do think we should be better than we are. That might sound silly with us third, but I’d be happier with us in a lower position if believed in progress and process I was seeing.
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All those wanting VI out after what 4/5 months realistically do they think there is anybody better out there not in work ( we won’t pay compo ). Remember to the foreign market is severely restricted to none elite league clubs
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All those wanting VI out after what 4/5 months realistically do they think there is anybody better out there not in work ( we won’t pay compo ). Remember to the foreign market is severely restricted to none elite league clubs
I don't want him out , I want him to be more flexible with his system .
The 3 up top with unsuited forwards and the 2 in the middle is killing us , our most attacking player is the left wing back which says everything to me .
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I don't want him out , I want him to be more flexible with his system .
The 3 up top with unsuited forwards and the 2 in the middle is killing us , our most attacking player is the left wing back which says everything to me .
What Dexy said.
He can be a success here if he becomes more flexibly. If it's just this forever more i don't think we have the money we need to make it work well. Maybe if we get a proper CF in January it will make all the difference but at the moment things are not great.
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All those wanting VI out after what 4/5 months realistically do they think there is anybody better out there not in work ( we won’t pay compo ). Remember to the foreign market is severely restricted to none elite league clubs
I can see 1 person saying this, the danger is if we lose more ground on the top 2, the frustration will increase and the number of people anti VI will increase. Clearly we cannot influence what the top 2 do, so we need to keep winning ....
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All those wanting VI out after what 4/5 months realistically do they think there is anybody better out there not in work ( we won’t pay compo ). Remember to the foreign market is severely restricted to none elite league clubs
Some fans, myself included, are growing increasingly frustrated in Val’s tactical limitations.
If he’s prepared to learn/adjust/adapt his tactics and game management, then I’m prepared to show more patience with him.
All I’m seeing right now is our manager looking completely out of his depth. If the board don’t properly back Val in the January 2022 window, I can’t see us finishing in the top 6 at the end of this season.
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Do we think he would change to a 352?! This would immediately improve us, one of the front 3 out for a central midfielder.
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Where has the intensity gone that we had at start of season that no team could live with us? Even with more possession those levels shouldn’t drop. Fullbacks no longer bomb on and our passing abilities looks laboured, front three for most parts disappear from games with majority of balls bouncing off them as first touch let’s them down. Val has a lot of work to do to improve the teams fortunes as I can’t see us getting promoted with display’s on show at the moment.
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Do we think he would change to a 352?! This would immediately improve us, one of the front 3 out for a central midfielder.
Would be worth a shot. Why play 3 up front when that is our weakest area? If we had 3 good attackers then you could see his logic in persisting but we don't.
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Do we think he would change to a 352?! This would immediately improve us, one of the front 3 out for a central midfielder.
I said this a few weeks ago. Interestingly not one has stepped forward indeed the opposite seems to have happened. My own penny worth is assuming the investment levels continue from the ownership (none) then the scouting/recruitment need to improve almost as much as the forward line ! We should be looking at loans from the big boys all of whom have more players than they are going to need in three seasons !! For what it’s worth the first call I’d make would be a local one see if we can’t have the lad Archer for the rest of the season
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If we can't buy anyone in Jan we should be looking at LOANING the likes of Gayle etc. Actual strikers who can't get a look in at PL but kill it down here.
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Thoughts after my first live game...
My main gripe - we looked passive. In our first few games it appeared there was a "philosophy" with an intensity embraced but that has become less and less as time goes on and the identity that VI wanted to embed into the team is either being met with resistance or the players are shattered. Neither is great.
I also feel VI is working with a group of pretty average players with 1 or 2 above average, and we're 3rd, we're not cut off and I'd have taken 6 points from 2nd when he took over. The slip must be addressed though.
I hope the 2 week break now can allow us to recoup, find a best 11 and work very hard with that 11 on the philosophy and intensity. Where's the swarm, can we have that back?
So I sympathise with the fans that go week in week out, the players aren't performing but I hope the boos aren't solely aimed at VI, as I don't believe he deserves that. The board however, they've thrown Val under the bus.
I don't think VI does "best 11", his "philosophy" is to use the squad.
It can't be coincidence that after Christmas we come to the business part of the season. I believe he's giving experience to fringe players ready for the new year period.
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I still think Val will do a good job for us. And for those saying Val should be sacked :o ask yourself what manager that is available and who the club could afford would do any better with the players we have got.
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I still think Val will do a good job for us. And for those saying Val should be sacked :o ask yourself what manager that is available and who the club could afford would do any better with the players we have got.
No one will do any better unless we sign better forwards I'm absolutely convinced about that.
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Don't suggest any new managers while Ismael is still in post as it would be against forum rules and such posts will be removed.
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No one will do any better unless we sign better forwards I'm absolutely convinced about that.
I'd suggest most wouldn't persist with a front three using totally unsuitable forwards.
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No one will do any better unless we sign better forwards I'm absolutely convinced about that.
We do need a better CF than Hugill but we still have the 4th highest goals for tally with 27.
The goals have somewhat dried up after we stopped the high press, we scored 12 goals in our first 5 games, then 8 in our next 5 as the press dropped off.
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I'd suggest most wouldn't persist with a front three using totally unsuitable forwards.
It was noticeable that we didn't play a flat three yesterday. Diangana and Grant played more infield and deeper than Robinson so it was more of a 3421 formation really.
That's the only way VI will tinker though he'll just subtly modify the starting positions of the front three.
Personally I don't like only two men in the centre of midfield. Val does though.
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It was noticeable that we didn't play a flat three yesterday. Diangana and Grant played more infield and deeper than Robinson so it was more of a 3421 formation really.
That's the only way VI will tinker though he'll just subtly modify the starting positions of the front three.
Personally I don't like only two men in the centre of midfield. Val does though.
Not sure where Grant was supposed to be , terrible on the ball . Grady I thought looked more like it dropping a bit deeper rather than ball's flying at his head . Deep three or not it's not working , fully agree on the two in the middle...a trap Bilic was stubborn on too .
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We do need a better CF than Hugill but we still have the 4th highest goals for tally with 27.
The goals have somewhat dried up after we stopped the high press, we scored 12 goals in our first 5 games, then 8 in our next 5 as the press dropped off.
If you take Grant's goals out of the equation we have 8 goals in 17 games from four other forwards, five if you include Zohore.
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If you take Grant's goals out of the equation we have 8 goals in 17 games from four other forwards, five if you include Zohore.
Why would you take Grant's goals out?
We need an upgrade on Hugill so that we can have a starter who can actually play as a No9 allowing Robinson, Grant, Phillips. Diangana to play either side and cut inside; making better use of their attributes.
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Why would you take Grant's goals out?
We need an upgrade on Hugill so that we can have a starter who can actually play as a No9 allowing Robinson, Grant, Phillips. Diangana to play either side and cut inside; making better use of their attributes.
Because it emphasises how bad the rest of our forwards are. Grant has had a decent goalscoring run of late but when he doesn't score he offers nothing either.
Anyone that thinks just another number 9 is going to transform us I think is going to be disappointed.
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We do need a better CF than Hugill but we still have the 4th highest goals for tally with 27.
The goals have somewhat dried up after we stopped the high press, we scored 12 goals in our first 5 games, then 8 in our next 5 as the press dropped off.
Not sure on stats but it seems to me teams are wise to the bully tactics on set pieces/ throws now .
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Because it emphasises how bad the rest of our forwards are. Grant has had a decent goalscoring run of late but when he doesn't score he offers nothing either.
Anyone that thinks just another number 9 is going to transform us I think is going to be disappointed.
I think Robinson has laid a few on for Grant and he also is adding nothing goal wise at the minute himself , I agree a goal scoring forward isn't the sole answer but would help . For me a 3 in the middle involving Molumby /Snodgrass / Mowatt or Livermore would help hugely.
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I think Robinson has laid a few on for Grant and he also is adding nothing goal wise at the minute himself , I agree a goal scoring forward isn't the sole answer but would help . For me a 3 in the middle involving Molumby /Snodgrass / Mowatt or Livermore would help hugely.
Correct, Robinson has 5 assists and 3 goals in 921 minutes; it is Hugill that has no output.
Of course had we not sold Pereira we wouldn't have these problems and would be in the top two.
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It's the setup, most of these players got promoted 2 seasons ago. Even today there were small periods when we got the ball down, passed it around and we looked great for it. Val needs to trust his players to play football and support them with a better set of tactics.
With Pereira, a magician leading the charge and Bilic, who did an unbelievable job to get a tune out of average players like HRK and the best from the squad. We over-performed that season. This squad is inferior. Val has done a good job to get us up to third.
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Correct, Robinson has 5 assists and 3 goals in 921 minutes; it is Hugill that has no output.
Of course had we not sold Pereira we wouldn't have these problems and would be in the top two.
not necessarily true, in this formation his position doesn’t really exist anymore. On top of that he was *allegedly* trying to force the move himself so its more likely he’d be in Zohore’s position sulking in the U21’s, very similar to what he did at Sporting to get sent here.
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Like you were unable to see that Bilic was doing a bad job? Oh the irony.
I have been supportive of VI but the football now is just confused.
Back on planet earth automatic promotion two seasons ago was an unmitigated success which Bilic deserved enormous praise for, and we had no chance of survival last season. Since then we have been in decline, although Val has done a good job so far with no real transfer budget and a limited squad.
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not necessarily true, in this formation his position doesn’t really exist anymore. On top of that he was *allegedly* trying to force the move himself so its more likely he’d be in Zohore’s position sulking in the U21’s, very similar to what he did at Sporting to get sent here.
Best player in the league could have played anywhere for us and made a massive difference. Players look to leave clubs all the time. Zaha produced the goods again for Palace yesterday, how many times has he asked to leave. Fact is, with him under a long term contract we had the power to keep him if we so wished and for whatever reason we sold him on the cheap. Plainly, the board was not acting in the best interests of the club, but they will continue to have some fans covering for every mistake they make (not a jibe at you by the way). That transfer was about as sensible as Howard Kendall selling Cantona to Man Utd.
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Best player in the league could have played anywhere for us and made a massive difference. Players look to leave clubs all the time. Zaha produced the goods again for Palace yesterday, how many times has he asked to leave. Fact is, with him under a long term contract we had the power to keep him if we so wished and for whatever reason we sold him on the cheap. Plainly, the board was not acting in the best interests of the club, but they will continue to have some fans covering for every mistake they make (not a jibe at you by the way). That transfer was about as sensible as Howard Kendall selling Cantona to Man Utd.
difference with Zaha is he DID leave and proved to be a failure outside of Palace. That can be held over him by palace and I doubt many other clubs are actually that interested in him anymore.
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difference with Zaha is he DID leave and proved to be a failure outside of Palace. That can be held over him by palace and I doubt many other clubs are actually that interested in him anymore.
No premier league side came in for Periera either this summer. Our chairman couldn't wait to get him out the door and the cash in.
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No premier league side came in for Periera either this summer. Our chairman couldn't wait to get him out the door and the cash in.
that’s your opinion. Do you have any evidence that is the case?
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If player’s’ are tired why isn’t coach utilising his bench? Again we only used two subs yesterday. Rotation of squad is usually at a minimum with only injuries and suspensions affecting first team lineup. Fringe player’s seem to be given little opportunity’s especially the younger lads no matter how team play.
I think he was ready to bring on Phillips for Dianga yesterday, but then he scored, so didn't want to dent the lad's confidence.
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I think he was ready to bring on Phillips for Dianga yesterday, but then he scored, so didn't want to dent the lad's confidence.
And rightly so but he could have hooked Grant who was awful again
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Best player in the league could have played anywhere for us and made a massive difference. Players look to leave clubs all the time. Zaha produced the goods again for Palace yesterday, how many times has he asked to leave. Fact is, with him under a long term contract we had the power to keep him if we so wished and for whatever reason we sold him on the cheap. Plainly, the board was not acting in the best interests of the club, but they will continue to have some fans covering for every mistake they make (not a jibe at you by the way). That transfer was about as sensible as Howard Kendall selling Cantona to Man Utd.
I think you meant Howard Wilkinson
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difference with Zaha is he DID leave and proved to be a failure outside of Palace. That can be held over him by palace and I doubt many other clubs are actually that interested in him anymore.
I think you will find plenty of clubs are interested in him. He's one of the few players who has the skill to unlock defences and that is something teams will always want. He probably hasn't left because Palace put a price on his head which few teams were able to achieve. Personally I would have purchased Zaha rather than Grealish if I was Pep.
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Because it emphasises how bad the rest of our forwards are. Grant has had a decent goalscoring run of late but when he doesn't score he offers nothing either.
Anyone that thinks just another number 9 is going to transform us I think is going to be disappointed.
How many would Fulham have without Mitrovic or Bournemouth without Solanke?
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Back on planet earth automatic promotion two seasons ago was an unmitigated success which Bilic deserved enormous praise for, and we had no chance of survival last season. Since then we have been in decline, although Val has done a good job so far with no real transfer budget and a limited squad.
We are very much a side in decline. If you compare this side to the side we had a few seasons back when we had Gayle, Rodriguez, Dawson, Barnes (for half a season), Holgate. All players who have held their own in the premier. This side is no way near as good as that side. Ismael is doing the best he can with no investment. This will be the case in January. We will not spend a penny again in the January transfer window like we did in the summer because the owner doesn't want to invest any money in the side. We may even be stuck with Hugill for the season. So no centre forward and at the same time probably lose some players like Johnstone and maybe some others.
Under the current regime I can't see us making the play offs. I think Automatic has already gone. We have two tough away matches next at Huddersfield and Blackpool. Lose those and teams will be overtaking us.
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given Farke has gone from Norwich the chances of Hugill going back have increased i would think.
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I think we will definitely make the play offs - i think we will do that comfortably.
This is a very poor division. We can be poor but such is the lack of quality in this division we will have too much for some sides.
If this was the championship of a few years ago then I’d be really worried.
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I think we will definitely make the play offs - i think we will do that comfortably.
This is a very poor division. We can be poor but such is the lack of quality in this division we will have too much for some sides.
If this was the championship of a few years ago then I’d be really worried.
Not for me. We are struggling against sides we should be beating easily. Middlesbro, Millwall, derby and Preston at home we should be beating easily. A few sesons ago we were hitting 4 past teams like this and then we only made the play offs ! We are struggling in performances and it seems to be getting worse week by week.
Yes it is a poor divison but that makes us poor as well because we are only drawing against these teams. Millwall, derby and Preston will not be anywhere near the play offs. I think Middlebro will be now they have appointed Chris Wilder. Two tough games coming up away at Huddersfield and away at Blackpool. They will test us . Lets see what happens !!!!
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If player’s’ are tired why isn’t coach utilising his bench? Again we only used two subs yesterday. Rotation of squad is usually at a minimum with only injuries and suspensions affecting first team lineup. Fringe player’s seem to be given little opportunity’s especially the younger lads no matter how team play.
Val’s team yesterday, even having only used two subs, could and should have won that game in the last minute of stoppage time; sadly, Grant can’t pass a football, had he been able to, even Mr Hugill would surely have scored. Robinson and Grant are awful, no first touch and they just don’t seem to be able to master a basic footballing skill, passing!
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Not for me. We are struggling against sides we should be beating easily. Middlesbro, Millwall, derby and Preston at home we should be beating easily. A few sesons ago we were hitting 4 past teams like this and then we only made the play offs ! We are struggling in performances and it seems to be getting worse week by week.
Yes it is a poor divison but that makes us poor as well because we are only drawing against these teams. Millwall, derby and Preston will not be anywhere near the play offs. I think Middlebro will be now they have appointed Chris Wilder. Two tough games coming up away at Huddersfield and away at Blackpool. They will test us . Lets see what happens !!!!
Look who we dropped points too the last time we went up. Barnsley, Wigan, Huddersfield and Charlton ect, it happens. I'd be shocked if we didn't reach the playoffs, like Liam said the quality in this league is abysmal. Unfortunately for us we're probably the third best team in this division and finishing in third place doesn't get you automatic promotion.
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I thought VI was bought in to make us more than the sum of our parts. Wasn’t that his achievement at Barnsley. So far, for me, he has turned us into an afternoon of watching paint dry. The quality of football on display is just plain bad. If we have to suffer this for automatic promotion then maybe it’s worth it. If we suffer a season of this and don’t get promoted I think we are in a mess. I blame the owner more than anyone but Val puts the team out and is measured on results.
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With Pereira, a magician leading the charge and Bilic, who did an unbelievable job to get a tune out of average players like HRK and the best from the squad. We over-performed that season. This squad is inferior. Val has done a good job to get us up to third.
I think that should be down to third 82, that is our current direction of travel. In a few weeks time we will be excited about 4th, or 5th......
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Look who we dropped points too the last time we went up. Barnsley, Wigan, Huddersfield and Charlton ect, it happens. I'd be shocked if we didn't reach the playoffs, like Liam said the quality in this league is abysmal. Unfortunately for us we're probably the third best team in this division and finishing in third place doesn't get you automatic promotion.
The quality in this league is abysmal compared to the premier league but the Championship is still comfortably in the top 10 leagues in Europe....haven't looked it up recently but it's something like 5th as far as richest leagues in Europe go ?
Barnsley, Wigan, Huddersfield and Charlton etc caused us all sorts of problems because they outnumbered and over-ran us in midfield. You don't need huge amounts of quality to be able to do this. There are plenty of very ordinary teams capable of giving us very difficult games. We have to be 'at it' every single game or we'll come a cropper plenty of times.
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The quality in this league is abysmal compared to the premier league but the Championship is still comfortably in the top 10 leagues in Europe....haven't looked it up recently but it's something like 5th as far as richest leagues in Europe go ?
Barnsley, Wigan, Huddersfield and Charlton etc caused us all sorts of problems because they outnumbered and over-ran us in midfield. You don't need huge amounts of quality to be able to do this. There are plenty of very ordinary teams capable of giving us very difficult games. We have to be 'at it' every single game or we'll come a cropper plenty of times.
You are right mate the Championship is a good quality league. People judge it against the PL which is unfair because that is the strongest league in Europe and very probably the world. The Championship is a much higher level than most European leagues and most international football.
Having said that I do think this season it's the weakest it has been for a while there's no Leeds, Villa even Brentford or Norwich of seasons gone by.
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Agree with Liam that we will comfortably make the play offs but it's the method of getting there that is of concern.
Being a yo-yo team, with no backing, means the Prem is a turgid, boring slog, even if we manage to stay up, we would lose far more than we win and the highs would be minimal. I can accept that though as the Championship ride is normally a good one. This season started off the same and Val appeared to be a breath of fresh air with his high intensity, high press tactics. Since Milwall though, it's all gone a bit downhill with changes of tactics and personnel, but, in the main, the quality of entertainment has nose-dived.
What I think a lot of fans are now struggling with, is what we are trying to do, as there's no clear plan. That's the over-riding message I'm getting from my mates. Football fans, in the main, are smart and understand the game, certainly the ones I watch with as they have, like me, 40+ years experience of it and, if things aren't going well, but you can see what we are trying to do, you can stick with it. At the minute I have no clue what our long term plan is, on the pitch, and that's worrying.
The rigidity of 343 is the only constant, yet I think this could be the main issue. We have two decent wingbacks, both capable of getting forward, however, in front of them we have another 3, predominantly, wide players, so we end up looking very good out wide and put in some very good balls but, there's no-one in the middle! We are basically overloading the wings whilst underloading the box.
A switch to 352 or, my choice, 433 could make all the difference but this doesn't appear to even be a consideration.
The other concern is the body language of the players. It was mooted on here that some players were not happy, not sure if that was genuine ITK stuff, or pure speculation, but it's hard to argue with as some players look uncomfortable to say the least.
Val seems a tough guy so he should be able to get his point across and get players to buy in, if they don't then drop them. The fragility of the squad though, may be making this more difficult, hence this, muddled, dull, ambiguous hybrid that we are now seeing.
This can go three ways for me, we either back him and bring in players to suit his M.O. He develops a clear and concise alternative that suits the players we have, or, we get rid and bring in someone new.
The first is unlikely and the third should be unthinkable so it has to be the second option!
Come on Val, use this break to come up with a new plan that puts pressure back on the top 2 and gets me up off my seat again!
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We should have enough to make the play offs, I have even booked a hotel (on free cancellation) near Wembley before the prices shoot up!! ;D
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I think we will make the play offs, but without a massive upturn in quality and consistency I would hate us to go up because it will be an utter embarrassment if we do.
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If we finish outside the play offs, something will have gone horribly horribly wrong.
We have sleepwalked in to third and despite us playing quite poorly, quite often, the only three teams who've looked like beating us, have. Our points return over the last 7 games has been poor (10 out of 21) but even at that rate we would still get to 73/74 points. Agree completely that its how we get there that is going to matter.
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If we finish outside the play offs, something will have gone horribly horribly wrong.
We have sleepwalked in to third and despite us playing quite poorly, quite often, the only three teams who've looked like beating us, have. Our points return over the last 7 games has been poor (10 out of 21) but even at that rate we would still get to 73/74 points. Agree completely that its how we get there that is going to matter.
At the moment I think a finish outside the play offs is very possible. Hopefully the board will back Val in the forthcoming transfer window or else we may as well give up now. I also hope that despite a 5 year contract, our board were smart enough to insert a 'no promotion - no job' clause into it.
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We should have enough to make the play offs, I have even booked a hotel (on free cancellation) near Wembley before the prices shoot up!! ;D
A man with a plan but a little Villeasque if you don't mind me saying ;D .
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A man with a plan but a little Villeasque if you don't mind me saying ;D .
Fail to prepare, prepare to fail ;D ;D plus the emphasis is on free cancellation!
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Fail to prepare, prepare to fail ;D ;D plus the emphasis is on free cancellation!
Stretch limo' on stand by yet given it's too early to book a train ;D ?
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Stretch limo' on stand by yet given it's too early to book a train ;D ?
Didn't think of that one, good shout, I will get on to that after I finish making my cardboard playoff trophy and covering it in kitchen foil! ;D
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At the moment I think a finish outside the play offs is very possible. Hopefully the board will back Val in the forthcoming transfer window or else we may as well give up now. I also hope that despite a 5 year contract, our board were smart enough to insert a 'no promotion - no job' clause into it.
We will have to disagree. Any manager should be able to get this current squad in to the play offs.
In my opinion there is only objectively 3 potentially better squads than ours, and we are 13 points above one of those.
I must be missing the threat others see in the rest of the division. The only threat to us is from within.
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I must be missing the threat others see in the rest of the division. The only threat to us is from within.
Great comment, well put.
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Didn't think of that one, good shout, I will get on to that after I finish making my cardboard playoff trophy and covering it in kitchen foil! ;D
Don't forget the cardboard sign reading "Hugill, Can I have your shirt"!?
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Don't forget the cardboard sign reading "Hugill, Can I have your shirt"!?
Probably not the first time someone’s mentioned Hugill and cardboard in the same sentence. 😂
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We will have to disagree. Any manager should be able to get this current squad in to the play offs.
In my opinion there is only objectively 3 potentially better squads than ours, and we are 13 points above one of those.
I must be missing the threat others see in the rest of the division. The only threat to us is from within.
Do you count our own fan base as “withinâ€? I’m appalled at the attitude of some of our “fansâ€. We stand far more chance of everyone actually gets behind the team and the manager.
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Probably not the first time someone’s mentioned Hugill and cardboard in the same sentence. 😂
You've no idea how important he could prove to be for us. With that in mind I think you ought to 'cut it out' ;) .
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You've no idea how important he could prove to be for us. With that in mind I think you ought to 'cut it out' ;) .
Fully agree Dan, from what I have seen he is definitely a box to box player so could prove vital in the final ;D
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Do you count our own fan base as “withinâ€? I’m appalled at the attitude of some of our “fansâ€. We stand far more chance of everyone actually gets behind the team and the manager.
I think everyone is behind the team and manager overseas, but the quality of football currently on display is very poor, and it is the opinion of many 'fans' that for the squad we have we should be doing better. We have got a pretty strong squad and we know that they are capable of much better things, so to see playground 'hoofball' tactics is disappointing to be honest. We should be beating the likes of Middlesborough, Derby, Preston etc comfortably with this squad. We squeaked past Hull [who could have scored at the end] and Val said it 'was a very difficult game for us' - really? They parked the bus like most teams do. The gegenpress has all but disappeared and sometimes the team look as though they have never met each other before.
The only enemy within is the owner and the board, and we all know that.
I stand by what I say about us possibly missing out on the play offs. There are teams below us who are playing as a team. Coventry and Stoke for example are capable of catching us quite easily. Its not about 'we've got the third strongest squad', its about form and we are lacking in that department at the moment. From one week to the next we have no idea which Albion is going to turn up.
This can easily be remedied by the board supporting Val in the forthcoming transfer window, so lets see how serious they are about promotion.
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As Don Goodman would say, 'fine margins'.
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I appreciate it may upset some but I really do not subscribe to the 'we have a good squad' regime. I think that the options at the back (keeper plus all defenders, including wing backs) supports that theory but not the other two departments. Limited options in central midfield with no obvious play maker, and an extremely limited goal threat in the final third; Phillips past his best, Grant a poor player but with a good finishing capability and 2 centre forwards who just do not measure up to the job description.
Anyone who knows me knows how positive I am about my club but I still think to make the top 6 will be an achievement; one that I think VI will manage to do.
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I stand by what I say about us possibly missing out on the play offs. There are teams below us who are playing as a team. Coventry and Stoke for example are capable of catching us quite easily. Its not about 'we've got the third strongest squad', its about form and we are lacking in that department at the moment.
Talk about hedging your bets !! Of course, there is a possibility of us missing out on the play offs, but do you actually believe that we will or we won't. I think most of us would be pretty surprised if we didn't make top 6.
And with regard to the 2 other teams you give as examples of teams who are capable of catching us easily, Coventry have only gained 1 more point than us over the last 7 games, and Stoke have gained exactly the same as us over the same period, so neither are exactly on scintillating form compared to us.
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Hey kn22, no obvious playmaker , Mowatt ?
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Does not upset me KN22. I see it exactly as you describe. What we do have in central midfield needs at least one quality addition who can press, win the ball, and use it creatively. Up front out wide we may be ok, but just ok, and are completely lacking centrally. All the abilities of our four front men, Diangana, Grant, Phillips and Robinson added together do not come anywhere near making a single centre forward. The other two, Hugill and Zohore, effort but no talent and not much talent but no effort will only benefit the team by being taken off the payroll.
As it stands I think VI has us pretty much where we at best might expect to be. However taking into account the the injuries to key players like Mowatt and O'Shea, and Clarke which could not have been forecast, and the yellow cards, some fair enough others not so fair, to other players which might have been expected. Adding to this the new changes in systems formations and tactics the team are getting used to we are probably closer to the top placings than we should expect at the moment.
We do not yet have the quality in the squad to expect automatic promotion, if we finish in the top six with these players it will be a job well done.
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Does not upset me KN22. I see it exactly as you describe. What we do have in central midfield needs at least one quality addition who can press, win the ball, and use it creatively. Up front out wide we may be ok, but just ok, and are completely lacking centrally. All the abilities of our four front men, Diangana, Grant, Phillips and Robinson added together do not come anywhere near making a single centre forward. The other two, Hugill and Zohore, effort but no talent and not much talent but no effort will only benefit the team by being taken off the payroll.
As it stands I think VI has us pretty much where we at best might expect to be. However taking into account the the injuries to key players like Mowatt and O'Shea, and Clarke which could not have been forecast, and the yellow cards, some fair enough others not so fair, to other players which might have been expected. Adding to this the new changes in systems formations and tactics the team are getting used to we are probably closer to the top placings than we should expect at the moment.
We do not yet have the quality in the squad to expect automatic promotion, if we finish in the top six with these players it will be a job well done.
Can't argue with any of this. It's a totally realistic assessment.
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With Pereira, a magician leading the charge and Bilic, who did an unbelievable job to get a tune out of average players like HRK and the best from the squad. We over-performed that season. This squad is inferior. Val has done a good job to get us up to third.
I said this after achieving promotion; getting 2nd place with that squad was a massive achievement, and it will only become apparent in retrospect.
Unfortunately a lot of Albion fans overrated that squad, as they do this one, leaving Ishmael a hard act to measure up to.
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Hey kn22, no obvious playmaker , Mowatt ?
Is he though? Closest we have to a play maker but hardly all about the silky skills and defence splitting passes. I rate him let’s be clear about that
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I said this after achieving promotion; getting 2nd place with that squad was a massive achievement, and it will only become apparent in retrospect.
Unfortunately a lot of Albion fans overrated that squad, as they do this one, leaving Ishmael a hard act to measure up to.
Nah mate. The only thing in retrospect is Slaven should have been given the bullet sooner instead of the board waiting until mid-December 2020.
Val’s tactics have already been nullified by the poorer teams in this league. How long do you think it’s going to be until all teams in the Championship neutralise the Albion this season…?
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Nah mate. The only thing in retrospect is Slaven should have been given the bullet sooner instead of the board waiting until mid-December 2020.
Val’s tactics have already been nullified by the poorer teams in this league. How long do you think it’s going to be until all teams in the Championship neutralise the Albion this season.
here we go again !
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One thing is certain. He isn’t going anywhere for at least two years. The guys sitting on a four year contract. Albion never pay for a manager. Paying two million for someone and letting him go six months later will never make business sense.
We all know it will have to be virtual relegation for us to sack him.
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I wonder if the club inserted any clauses in his contract allowing a break if targets aren't met? Automatic would be harsh but maybe not making the play offs would be written in....but the way the club is run who knows. I'm firmly in the 'he needs time' camp btw.
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I wonder if the club inserted any clauses in his contract allowing a break if targets aren't met? Automatic would be harsh but maybe not making the play offs would be written in....but the way the club is run who knows. I'm firmly in the 'he needs time' camp btw.
Anyone with a modicum of sense and footballing or business brain would set a compensation limit when handing a 4 year contract out these days.
Going by our top dogs we probably haven't.
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I wonder if the club inserted any clauses in his contract allowing a break if targets aren't met? Automatic would be harsh but maybe not making the play offs would be written in....but the way the club is run who knows. I'm firmly in the 'he needs time' camp btw.
Somehow doubt he would have signed if there was a severance clause against failure to meet targets.
It's more likely that his earnings would be heavily weighted towards success. (Win bonuses etc), with a relatively low basic salary.
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I think we should give the guy time, at least a couple of seasons. Over the past few seasons Albion have been amongst the worse for hiring and firing managers. We are on a par with Sunderland !!!
Albion fans are a fickle bunch. As soon as anything doesn't go to plan they call for the manager to be sacked.
Sometimes you have to be patient and give the guy time. I remember not so long ago that Arsenal fans were calling for Arteta to go when they were struggling at the wrong end of the table. Also West Ham fans were calling for Moyes to be replaced a few seasons ago. Know look at where those teams are now, both in the top 5.
Getting promoted this season would be the worse thing to happen to us because basically we are not good enough to compete in the premier. If you can't compete you should not be there !!
This team is worse than the team that got promoted last time and that team struggled badly. In fact I would say at a certain period during that season we were possible the worse team in premier league history when we getting battered 5 every other week !!!
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I think we should give the guy time, at least a couple of seasons. Over the past few seasons Albion have been amongst the worse for hiring and firing managers. We are on a par with Sunderland !!!
Albion fans are a fickle bunch. As soon as anything doesn't go to plan they call for the manager to be sacked.
Sometimes you have to be patient and give the guy time. I remember not so long ago that Arsenal fans were calling for Arteta to go when they were struggling at the wrong end of the table. Also West Ham fans were calling for Moyes to be replaced a few seasons ago. Know look at where those teams are now, both in the top 5.
Getting promoted this season would be the worse thing to happen to us because basically we are not good enough to compete in the premier. If you can't compete you should not be there !!
This team is worse than the team that got promoted last time and that team struggled badly. In fact I would say at a certain period during that season we were possible the worse team in premier league history when we getting battered 5 every other week !!!
Putting my matchday fickleness to one side, I agree. He has to see out this season minimum, in doing so, I have no doubt we will make the play offs at least. IMO, the sacking of Darren Moore, cost us promotion, due to the timing and the shambolic way we had no alternative lined up, to do the same now would be ridiculous.
In terms of football, it has to be a case of grin and bear it at times, but his comments today have given me heart that, he himself, is having to compromise his ideals due to the ability, or should I say, inability of some of his players. Hopefully, from February, we will start to see a more composed and consistent approach, with a few new faces.
We are a fickle bunch though, myself included, and there will be times where the frustration will overspill and he needs to take that on the chin, as do some on here. It's ok to be fickle, we don't necessarily have to nail our colours to one mast and defend them ferociously. Every game is different, so it is perfectly understandable for our reactions to be.
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Agreed it's ok to be fickle but on the match day, get behind the team, please no booing; we aren't so bad as to deserve that!
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Agreed it's ok to be fickle but on the match day, get behind the team, please no booing; we aren't so bad as to deserve that!
It was more a reference to post match, often intoxicated, rants on here rather than in the ground. I'm not a booer and fully agree with that sentiment.
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Putting my matchday fickleness to one side, I agree. He has to see out this season minimum, in doing so, I have no doubt we will make the play offs at least. IMO, the sacking of Darren Moore, cost us promotion, due to the timing and the shambolic way we had no alternative lined up, to do the same now would be ridiculous.
In terms of football, it has to be a case of grin and bear it at times, but his comments today have given me heart that, he himself, is having to compromise his ideals due to the ability, or should I say, inability of some of his players. Hopefully, from February, we will start to see a more composed and consistent approach, with a few new faces.
We are a fickle bunch though, myself included, and there will be times where the frustration will overspill and he needs to take that on the chin, as do some on here. It's ok to be fickle, we don't necessarily have to nail our colours to one mast and defend them ferociously. Every game is different, so it is perfectly understandable for our reactions to be.
We didn’t go up in 18/19 because we persevered with Darren Moore for too long. We had such good quality in the team too and DM totally messed it up. Shouldn’t have been given the job permanently in hindsight. Too inexperienced.
Besides, the board spoke to Slaviša Jokanović about taking over from DM then balked at his wage demands.
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I think we should give the guy time, at least a couple of seasons. Over the past few seasons Albion have been amongst the worse for hiring and firing managers. We are on a par with Sunderland !!!
Albion fans are a fickle bunch. As soon as anything doesn't go to plan they call for the manager to be sacked.
Sometimes you have to be patient and give the guy time. I remember not so long ago that Arsenal fans were calling for Arteta to go when they were struggling at the wrong end of the table. Also West Ham fans were calling for Moyes to be replaced a few seasons ago. Know look at where those teams are now, both in the top 5.
Getting promoted this season would be the worse thing to happen to us because basically we are not good enough to compete in the premier. If you can't compete you should not be there !!
This team is worse than the team that got promoted last time and that team struggled badly. In fact I would say at a certain period during that season we were possible the worse team in premier league history when we getting battered 5 every other week !!!
Two poor examples there Mart.
The owners of both clubs have actually invested/spent money in the squad, whereas the Albion owner hasn’t.
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We didn’t go up in 18/19 because we persevered with Darren Moore for too long. We had such good quality in the team too and DM totally messed it up. Shouldn’t have been given the job permanently in hindsight. Too inexperienced.
Besides, the board spoke to Slaviša Jokanović about taking over from DM then balked at his wage demands.
If we had gotten rid of him sooner and appointed James Shan, I doubt the outcome would have improved.
As it was, to sack him when we did had nothing but a negative impact, yet we still came within a whisker of Wembley. If we'd kept him I think we would have won the play offs. Just my opinion though, we'll never truly know.
What we do agree on is the terrible timing and forward planning.
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If we had gotten rid of him sooner and appointed James Shan, I doubt the outcome would have improved.
As it was, to sack him when we did had nothing but a negative impact, yet we still came within a whisker of Wembley. If we'd kept him I think we would have won the play offs. Just my opinion though, we'll never truly know.
What we do agree on is the terrible timing and forward planning.
In fairness to Jimmy Shan, out of the 12 games he was in charge - 7 wins, 4 losses and 1 draw was pretty good for a kids football coach.
And it was he who came within a whisker of taking us to Wembley, not Darren Moore.
But yeah mate, I agree with what you’re saying 👍🏻 The timing was terrible. It should have been done sooner. The 0-0 at home to bottom of the league Ipswich was a low for me.
The board were more than aware the Moore/Jones collaboration wasn’t working and yet they dallied for too long. I still reckon Shan stood a better chance of getting us promoted if he’d had a bit more time.
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Same with billic hes over achieving with a largely over rated squad. A lot of summer signings reach hugil squad fillers at best. Still loads of old pros on big money for us; Phillips, Livermore, bartley, johnstone and snodgrass.
Failure to go up and shifting some of the high earners off the books and giving VI some actual support might see better results
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We didn’t go up in 18/19 because we persevered with Darren Moore for too long. We had such good quality in the team too and DM totally messed it up. Shouldn’t have been given the job permanently in hindsight. Too inexperienced.
Besides, the board spoke to Slaviša Jokanović about taking over from DM then balked at his wage demands.
Your think we persevere with every manager for too long !!!
Sometimes you have to give a manager time to build the team in the way he wants to. This takes time. And involves patience.
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So sick of the same old excuses game after game, his gameplan is for underdogs and not one of the better squads in the division. I cant wait for him to go, win, lose or draw I want him out. I know lifelong fans who have been offered free tickets and turned them down due to this dross.
Football is about enjoyment and this is definitely not enjoyable.
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In fairness to Jimmy Shan, out of the 12 games he was in charge - 7 wins, 4 losses and 1 draw was pretty good for a kids football coach.
And it was he who came within a whisker of taking us to Wembley, not Darren Moore.
But yeah mate, I agree with what you’re saying 👍🏻 The timing was terrible. It should have been done sooner. The 0-0 at home to bottom of the league Ipswich was a low for me.
The board were more than aware the Moore/Jones collaboration wasn’t working and yet they dallied for too long. I still reckon Shan stood a better chance of getting us promoted if he’d had a bit more time.
The problem with the Moore/Jones collaboration was Graeme Jones. After leaving us he failed miserably at Luton and caretaker at Newcastle hasn't be any better. It could be that Darren Moore was listening to Graeme Jones too much.
You can argue about the good and bad points of Darren Moore but he was the one who got Gayle and Barnes in for us that season and it was those two who gave us that spark that season.
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Two poor examples there Mart.
The owners of both clubs have actually invested/spent money in the squad, whereas the Albion owner hasn’t.
Its a bit different when you have a boat load of money to invest !
But I will agree about the short comings of our owner. Things work better when you have an owner who is interested and I'm afraid thats how its going to be with this owner. He has no intentions of investing any money, something he said on day one that we will be a self supporting club. So the only way out for me is stand by the current manager, give him time to build a good young side and then maybe will be able to compete in the premier.
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Your think we persevere with every manager for too long !!!
Sometimes you have to give a manager time to build the team in the way he wants to. This takes time. And involves patience.
Moore and Bilić, hell yeah !!
I’m not convinced Val’s going to build anything particularly worth while from what I’ve seen from him so far this season. It’s a really poor Championship and the performances from the Albion have been generally underwhelming.
Happy to be proven wrong of course, but I just don’t think he’s got what it takes to succeed at the Albion in the long term.
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Its a bit different when you have a boat load of money to invest !
But I will agree about the short comings of our owner. Things work better when you have an owner who is interested and I'm afraid thats how its going to be with this owner. He has no intentions of investing any money, something he said on day one that we will be a self supporting club. So the only way out for me is stand by the current manager, give him time to build a good young side and then maybe will be able to compete in the premier.
The thing is Mart, I don’t think Val’s capable of managing a team in the Premier League. Certainly not at the moment. In terms of his current tactical abilities, he’s either not experienced enough or just doesn’t have it in his locker.
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The problem with the Moore/Jones collaboration was Graeme Jones. After leaving us he failed miserably at Luton and caretaker at Newcastle hasn't be any better. It could be that Darren Moore was listening to Graeme Jones too much.
You can argue about the good and bad points of Darren Moore but he was the one who got Gayle and Barnes in for us that season and it was those two who gave us that spark that season.
You’re right about Graeme Jones.
In the end the Albion board pulled Big Dave into a meeting and said you either let Graeme Jones go or you’re both gone. Big Dave chose his friend (which was a loyal and admirable choice) and that was it. They were both went.
Gayle and Barnes were brilliant that season. They really were. Not sure what involvement Darren Moore had in bringing them to the Albion. I’m pretty sure with Dwight it was our offer to pay most (if not all) of his wages that season and Newcastle wanted him off the books to bring in Salomon Rondon on loan.
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Do you know what, you would think that we're on the brink of relegation listening to some posters on here.
Crikey were not even half way through the season yet, oh by the way we're 3rd in the league!
You could moan if you were Derby, the top 2 won't carry on without a blip or 2 will they?
I think we will get Dick Van in January, but we'll see.
If we can get close to 50 points by end of December we'll be in a great position to go up a gear.
Last time I looked we had 32 points 8 matches till end of December that's 24 points to have a go at, we need 18 more to hit 50,thats dropping 6 points, we can do it
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Do you know what, you would think that we're on the brink of relegation listening to some posters on here.
Crikey were not even half way through the season yet, oh by the way we're 3rd in the league!
You could moan if you were Derby, the top 2 won't carry on without a blip or 2 will they?
I think we will get Dick Van in January, but we'll see.
If we can get close to 50 points by end of December we'll be in a great position to go up a gear.
Last time I looked we had 32 points 8 matches till end of December that's 24 points to have a go at, we need 18 more to hit 50,thats dropping 6 points, we can do it
Totally agree mate, some people need to have a reality check and look at the squad he's inherited, thats as well as half the squad in the treatment room.
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Do you know what, you would think that we're on the brink of relegation listening to some posters on here.
Crikey were not even half way through the season yet, oh by the way we're 3rd in the league!
You could moan if you were Derby, the top 2 won't carry on without a blip or 2 will they?
I think we will get Dick Van in January, but we'll see.
If we can get close to 50 points by end of December we'll be in a great position to go up a gear.
Last time I looked we had 32 points 8 matches till end of December that's 24 points to have a go at, we need 18 more to hit 50,thats dropping 6 points, we can do it
I’m with you. I’m no happy clapper, or a gloom doomer. I’m just some guy that cares, but knows when to get concerned. I’ve witnessed too many seasons with The Albion to know anything can happen. Same as any fan, of any club. We’re in good a place. It could be better..but it could be much worse. Saying that, someone meeting at least half the crosses that we’ve delivered, would’ve been handy. I don’t care who, or how it affects our formation, we need a goal scorer. I’m ok till now, but by Easter, I may become concerned. ☺ï¸
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Was discussing Val with my Albion Mate and this is my point
Val needs our support half of this squad are a mis match of Pulis Era, Big Dave and a Few of Slav's players. Val only brought in Alex Mowatt, maybe some of the loans but I think that was more the board. I would happily not get promoted this season let Val Build the team he wants have a crack next season. If we go up back him if we go down let him keep the same squad for Championship then build and try and stay up. It annoys how many fans are turning on them, my dad says this is the first Albion Manager he has known play 3 at the back which does seem to be a Trend at the moment. We further discussed had Val Had Pereira, Gayle, J-Rod and Barnes good we would be on fire combine that with Berahino and other Youth. The problem with this club and this is where I feel sorry for Val he won't get backed we will go up by play off's or if we don't Val will be sacked or not backed then sacked. If we do go up, will he get backed no will it go wrong probably yes will he be here no he will get Sacked. If we as Fans Stand behind Val the owners might get the message to back him, Val seems to be playing a new Trend of 3 at the back with Wingbacks and Pressing. Tuchel plays it at Chelsea and many others have a system similar to it. What we need to do is back VI as he with the Squad he wants we could be exciting. Regardless VI won't get this backing and why because of the Owners the quicker Lai or whoever are gone the better. Overall I hope Val can cause them to leave but it is unlikely. But I for one will back Val, I hope he gets backed so Albion can have a proper crack at the Prem.
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The issue isn't about whether we would be good enough if we went up - We all know the answer to that. The ussie is more like what if we don't go up. The purse strings get tightened even further, and we potentially head down the slippery slope. I'd say more than ever its essential we go up this year. We have to get shot of Lai and that wont happen if we are in the Championship. I have to say I'm not that confident of promotion this season, and I dont expect much to change come the transfer window. I fear we could be in for a long grind.
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The problem with the Moore/Jones collaboration was Graeme Jones. After leaving us he failed miserably at Luton and caretaker at Newcastle hasn't be any better. It could be that Darren Moore was listening to Graeme Jones too much.
You can argue about the good and bad points of Darren Moore but he was the one who got Gayle and Barnes in for us that season and it was those two who gave us that spark that season.
Agree with this, Mart.
I also agree with liverbaggie. We are doing about as well as we can with an incomplete and unbalanced squad and an owner who has no business 'running' the show.
I don't think for a second like most of us that we are quite good enough to go up, but for once in a very long time let's stick with the manager and give him the chance to develop a young and eager squad. I think it will come.
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Agree with this, Mart.
I also agree with liverbaggie. We are doing about as well as we can with an incomplete and unbalanced squad and an owner who has no business 'running' the show.
I don't think for a second like most of us that we are quite good enough to go up, but for once in a very long time let's stick with the manager and give him the chance to develop a young and eager squad. I think it will come.
If we dont go up this season, the bold bit is the only reasonable option left in my opinion.
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I would agree with building a younger squad but the action of giving new contracts to players like Matt Philips contradict this.
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I would agree with building a younger squad but the action of giving new contracts to players like Matt Philips contradict this.
Not really, you always need an element of older heads/experience in a younger squad. Philips is 30 and will be 33 when his contract is up. If/when we find a better replacement for him we could still sell him on for a fee.
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Not really, you always need an element of older heads/experience in a younger squad. Philips is 30 and will be 33 when his contract is up. If/when we find a better replacement for him we could still sell him on for a fee.
I doubt if we could sell him for a fee now, let alone in 3 years.
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I doubt if we could sell him for a fee now, let alone in 3 years.
I think we could get around £1M for him.
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Not really, you always need an element of older heads/experience in a younger squad. Philips is 30 and will be 33 when his contract is up. If/when we find a better replacement for him we could still sell him on for a fee.
And we would be depriving ourselves of probably our most creative forward. Phillips will hit double figure goals this season, which is not to be scoffed at.
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I think we could get around £1M for him.
Well I don't know about that, but even if you're right, that would be a top end figure. What do you suppose some other club would be willing to p[ay for him 3 years down the line?
It was madness in my opinion to give him a new contract and beyond lunacy to give him a 3 year extension. How much that was down to Ismael I don't know, but if he was influential in the decision, it is not a good reflection on his judgement.
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And we would be depriving ourselves of probably our most creative forward. Phillips will hit double figure goals this season, which is not to be scoffed at.
he got 5 in 30 in 2018/19 and 7 in 39 in 2019/20. I'll be delighted if he gets into double figures this season but I doubt he will.
He's never got into double figures in any season in any league. His best is 8 in 44 for QPR in 2015/16.
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And we would be depriving ourselves of probably our most creative forward. Phillips will hit double figure goals this season, which is not to be scoffed at.
Not a chance he will get that many goals.
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Stubborn beyond belief with this system and suicidal high line , will lose his job because of it eventually .
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Stubborn beyond belief with this system and suicidal high line , will lose his job because of it eventually .
Hopefully sooner rather than later. Should never have been appointed. Dreadful football and small time thinking in taking a manager from Barnsley who plays long ball football
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Get rid before it’s too…. Ah it is too late. Terrible appointment.
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Sorry Val, I’ve seen enough.
Job is too big for you and I’m afraid you’re massively out of your depth here.
Best we all move on from this stupid decision ASAP.
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Time was up after Peterborough. One trick pony. Suits certain clubs but not us at this level
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Agree Val needs to be shown the door. The club must act swiftly.
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Rigid 3 up front yet we never look like scoring , 2 in the middle create nothing and get drowned by numbers week in week out .
I accept the squad needs better players but VI isnt doing enough with the players he has , far too easy to play against.
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Yeah, let’s get rid. Then appoint a new guy who will also quickly realise that this squad of players just is not good enough.
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His refusal to even tweak his system is getting really frustrating now. I'd get it if it had worked for us for a decent period of the season, but the reality is that after the first 4 or 5 games we have been awful. It's always hard to pick us as the side with the parachute payments when playing some very ordinary championship sides.
I have sympathy with his in that the options available I'm the squad are very limited, we are crying out for 2 new creative players, but he could try to make it work by playing more midfielders but he is set on this s*** formation.
What's happened to the press? What's the point of a high line if we aren't pressing anymore? He's heading towards a sacking this season and with it the end of our yo yo years.
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Yeah, let’s get rid. Then appoint a new guy who will also quickly realise that this squad of players just is not good enough.
We might get one who can set up a side that doesn't hang itself from the off .
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If we’re going to move him on do it now and get the new one in before Jan window.
Of course this is Albion and he’ll be sacked on Jan 31st.
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Yeah, let’s get rid. Then appoint a new guy who will also quickly realise that this squad of players just is not good enough.
Or could it be the Chinese just have a happy knack of appointing managerial failures at our club.
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We are only going one way with this guy. Dreadful appointment.
This guy plays one way and if it doesn't work is clueless in how to change things mid game. Most of us can tell what substitutions he's going to make and at exactly what time.
Its not working. He should be booted now before January. I wouldn't give this guy a penny to spend in the transfer window.
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Bloke has got his favourites and no matter how they play there a shoe in week in week out, hasn’t given our younger players a sniff. Idiot in China will only act if play offs become a doubt but if you don’t invest in first 11 any coach will be hamstrung.
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Yeah, let’s get rid. Then appoint a new guy who will also quickly realise that this squad of players just is not good enough.
I think many on here do think that the squad is good enough, just that VI is not getting the best out of them. Its almost as though he has lost the dressing room by the looks of it.
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We started well...and now we are falling. We were alright before teams figured us out. Got nothing up front and no defence with an uncreative midfield. Doomed to fail
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Have been prepared to give the bloke time especially due to lack of funds but his stubbornness and the lack of either ability of the players or willingness to adapt will cost him and us.
We've had 3 good performances this season, Sheffield United, Cardiff City and Bristol City, all 3 of those were shocking and offered nothing.
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If we’re going to move him on do it now and get the new one in before Jan window.
Of course this is Albion and he’ll be sacked on Jan 31st.
This is my concern as it would be particularly foolish on the boards part.
Val should really be shown the door tonight. I just have a feeling all’s not well behind the scenes between the squad, manager and coaching staff. If I’m right, the board know this already.
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I think many on here do think that the squad is good enough, just that VI is not getting the best out of them. Its almost as though he has lost the dressing room by the looks of it.
Yep. That’s my thoughts too. The squad aren’t playing for him. We’ve seen it before.
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Time to go for me, been awful bar the first 5 games.
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This is my concern as it would be particularly foolish on the boards part.
Val should really be shown the door tonight. I just have a feeling all’s not well behind the scenes between the squad, manager and coaching staff. If I’m right, the board know this already.
Indeed, as I said at the time the decision not to back Bilic and ultimately his sacking has taken the club back twenty years.
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Have been prepared to give the bloke time especially due to lack of funds but his stubbornness and the lack of either ability of the players or willingness to adapt will cost him and us.
We've had 3 good performances this season, Sheffield United, Cardiff City and Bristol City, all 3 of those were shocking and offered nothing.
Bang on that. When we’ve looked good it’s more the opposition have looked terrible. Only the opening game of the season did we look competitive.
Since the embarrassing PBoro game away it’s been awful.
I really hope they act soon and bring in the Farke, sure he can’t manage in the prem but I’m more concerned about our immediate future now. The prem is a long way away.
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Indeed, as I said at the time the decision not to back Bilic and ultimately his sacking has taken the club back twenty years.
Although Bilić was not without his faults, I can’t help but think Luke Dowling was the real problem. Perhaps with a better technical director or certainly one who had a better working relationship with Bilić, maybe things could have been different…
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Indeed, as I said at the time the decision not to back Bilic and ultimately his sacking has taken the club back twenty years.
You could argue that he was backed by purchasing Grant and Diangana, it went pear shaped after that
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A good manager with tactical knowledge and good man management can make bang average players into world beaters , look at Leeds and Brentford, this guy makes Alan Irvine look like Corberan
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Deluded comments after the game by him.
I expect him to be gone by Monday.
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Deluded comments after the game by him.
I expect him to be gone by Monday.
What’s his excuse this week Phil?
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15 out of 24 in the form table from the last 6. Says it all.
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What’s his excuse this week Phil?
https://www.wba.co.uk/news/ismaels-huddersfield-verdict?fbclid=IwAR01ToneBAaUzgMANkG0cVqPHKQ92xKJM_2IsmCdzUPJLNE_bYfs6zlXHq4
We created so many chances? Give over Val.
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https://www.wba.co.uk/news/ismaels-huddersfield-verdict?fbclid=IwAR01ToneBAaUzgMANkG0cVqPHKQ92xKJM_2IsmCdzUPJLNE_bYfs6zlXHq4
We created so many chances? Give over Val.
Thanks Phil, heard it all before......
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He is just a repeater.
He repeats his excuses.He repeats his selection.
He repeats his style of play.He repeats when he substitutes players at 60 minutes.
No wonder he has been found out, but he is making us a laughing stock.
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Do you really think he is going to be sacked and we end up paying him the rest of his 4 year contract !!!
The way Lai is with his money I can't see that happening at all.
I'm afraid we are stuck with him. But this is Albion fans all over go through a rough spell and they call for the manager to be sacked. How many managers have we had over the last few years !!
You should start looking at the players we have. How many could be classed as premiership players ? The way I see it the answer is probably 1 , Sam Johnstone. These players are no good. I would go as far as to say this squad is worse than the squad he had at Barnsley.
Over the last 13 games we have won 5, drew 4 and lost 4 , 19 points. You can't say that everyone of those games were down to tactics. When a player loses a ball in a crucial area which costs a goal, thats not tactics or when defenders fail to clear the ball or when players get sent off or when strikers fail to hit the target when they are in a good scoring position are not all down to tactics.
Lai has failed to invest money in the team by picking up good championship players or even good league 1 players which could have been funded with the Pereira money. Ismael has been left to carry the can because he wasn't allowed to spend any money in the summer and it will be the same in January.
We are trying to get promoted on free transfers and players at the end of their careers who just want to top up their pension fund. We need to build for the future build a good young side. Take the pain now to prosper in the future. We can only do that with a stable environment.
I can hearing on here that our squad is one of the best squads in the division ......... really !!! We all have to face facts that the players are not good enough. If your players are not good enough it doesn't matter what system you play !
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With a four year deal we are going to have to cough up a lot of money to get rid. We are in free fall right now. No captain at the helm, and the ship is rudderless. We are about to hit the rocks. I'm not happy to say this in any way, but I said when VI name first came up the if he was the answer then I give up what the question was. The club under Lai has made poor decision after poor decision. He will NEVER get his money back. If he cant swallow his pride he wont be getting a fraction of what he spent. I like Val as a person, but has has shown to be totally inflexible with the way he plays. This may not be the best Championship squad we've had but they are way capable of better. At the moment it's Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Unless Val changes overnight, we are struggling to make the play offs, because every team now has a blueprint of how to play against us. Should never have been given the job, but then who in their right mind would want to come in and work under these clowns? Only a chancer, and thats what Val is.
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Do you really think he is going to be sacked and we end up paying him the rest of his 4 year contract !!!
The way Lai is with his money I can't see that happening at all.
I'm afraid we are stuck with him. But this is Albion fans all over go through a rough spell and they call for the manager to be sacked. How many managers have we had over the last few years !!
You should start looking at the players we have. How many could be classed as premiership players ? The way I see it the answer is probably 1 , Sam Johnstone. These players are no good. I would go as far as to say this squad is worse than the squad he had at Barnsley.
Over the last 13 games we have won 5, drew 4 and lost 4 , 19 points. You can't say that everyone of those games were down to tactics. When a player loses a ball in a crucial area which costs a goal, thats not tactics or when defenders fail to clear the ball or when players get sent off or when strikers fail to hit the target when they are in a good scoring position are not all down to tactics.
Lai has failed to invest money in the team by picking up good championship players or even good league 1 players which could have been funded with the Pereira money. Ismael has been left to carry the can because he wasn't allowed to spend any money in the summer and it will be the same in January.
We are trying to get promoted on free transfers and players at the end of their careers who just want to top up their pension fund. We need to build for the future build a good young side. Take the pain now to prosper in the future. We can only do that with a stable environment.
I can hearing on here that our squad is one of the best squads in the division ......... really !!! We all have to face facts that the players are not good enough. If your players are not good enough it doesn't matter what system you play !
Worse than the squad he had at Barnsley? Sorry, but get real. They certainly arent Premiership quality but they are way better than Barnsley squad. It's total misuse of the players available that is the problem. Square pegs in round holes.
Val would have known there wasn't any money to spend, otherwise we would have heard comments.
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Rigid 3 up front yet we never look like scoring , 2 in the middle create nothing and get drowned by numbers week in week out .
I accept the squad needs better players but VI isnt doing enough with the players he has , far too easy to play against.
Think thats fair he has issues with his system but we have a terrible squad. Managers are rigid in tactics and rarely change them. They will die before changing their tactics.
In reality we are very average at this level and limped over line last time and were carried by mateus periera.
3 in midfield or playing tempo stuff with guile and getting down the flanks rather than lumping aimless crosses in the middle when nobody is there.
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I wasn’t entirely against Val’s appointment but my personal choice was the Head Coach he replaced
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Worse than the squad he had at Barnsley? Sorry, but get real. They certainly arent Premiership quality but they are way better than Barnsley squad. It's total misuse of the players available that is the problem. Square pegs in round holes.
Val would have known there wasn't any money to spend, otherwise we would have heard comments.
Well lets see if they are better than Barnsley were last season. They got into the play offs the way we are playing we are going to end up mid table. 19 points from the last 13 matches, keep that up for the next 28 matches will give us an extra 40 points giving us a total of 72 points, thats not going to get you in the play offs !!!
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Well lets see if they are better than Barnsley were last season. They got into the play offs the way we are playing we are going to end up mid table. 19 points from the last 13 matches, keep that up for the next 28 matches will give us an extra 40 points giving us a total of 72 points, thats not going to get you in the play offs !!!
Difference is 'Expectation'. Last season I bet Barnsley had little expectation of achieving much. Most teams that played them would have attacked them, as they were realistically one of the 'lesser' teams. Obviously that would have changed a little towards the end of the season. This season teams aren't playing ball with us, they know how VI sets up, having had a season to learn. His tactics have been rumbled, and clearly are ineffective right now. He stated when he joined that he DIDN'T need quality, he needed players to fit the system. Well, he hasn't got the players to fit his system, yet he still persists, week after week. No plan B, just keep regurgitating the same old dross. Any 'GOOD' manager will adapt to some degree, in order to get the best out of his players. This guy just continues with Plan A, and nothing else.
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As others have said, with this squad of players, there aren't many managers out there, who are going to get more out of them. Johnstone and Mowatt are the only players who would walk into a PL team, maybe Townsend.
I like Val as he is decisive and knows what he's trying to do. At least his intentions are attacking, he aims to play the game further up the pitch, unlike all too many managers we've seen at the Hawthorns. I can't see changing the manager is going to achieve much, unless there is some wonder candidate out there who is available and willing to come in. Even then, there is the small matter of compensation for the 4 year contract.
Also, it was only really Kipre's error ball watching which made the difference today. Its not as if we were beaten by 3 or 4.
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At this level i would suggest that many more managers could string together a better team, striker aside.
This isn't the Champo as we know it. This is a urine poor imitation. The results and performances are massive causes for concern.
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Please remove him.
Hard choice, but we need someone who can actually think on their feet.
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At this level i would suggest that many more managers could string together a better team, striker aside.
This isn't the Champo as we know it. This is a **** poor imitation. The results and performances are massive causes for concern.
The question is are the board going to sack Val now or carry on with him naively hoping things will change…?
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The question is are the board going to sack Val now or carry on with him naively hoping things will change…?
It's impossible to answer that question because the people in charge have no footballing intelligence or business acumen whatsoever it seems from the last 5 years.
The only thing for sure is that VI won't change anything because he cannot,or will not, change anything. Got the footballing depth of a piece of A4 paper.
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I have little sympathy, as he uses Livermore over Molumby.
Molumby and Mowatt is by far the best combination, so if he can't see it, he really is putting his job at risk. It's a long time till January 22, for reinforcements, and its a packed schedule until then.
Fair enough we have an awful strikers in Hugill and Zohore but they're the only proper No 9's, so he has to give one of these minutes.
Overall, he shows little sign of learning on the job. Do I care if he's relieved of his duties soon, no not really!
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It's impossible to answer that question because the people in charge have no footballing intelligence or business acumen whatsoever it seems from the last 5 years.
The only thing for sure is that VI won't change anything because he cannot,or will not, change anything. Got the footballing depth of a piece of A4 paper.
The one thing the board may be worried about is WBA slipping into mid-table obscurity - which is where we’ll go with Val!
The Chinese can’t afford for that to happen. The financial loss they’d be forced to take to sell WBA, I just cannot see them going along for that ride.
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We are witnessing our long term demise. Yes we’re 3rd but it’s not great and we are closer to 7th than we are 2nd. The gap is growing bigger rapidly. We have no star players anymore.
The 20’s will be a long decade.
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The one thing the board may be worried about is WBA slipping into mid-table obscurity - which is where we’ll go with Val!
The Chinese can’t afford for that to happen. The financial loss they’d be forced to take to sell WBA, I just cannot see them going along for that ride.
You give them too much credit IMO. I think Lai viewed this season as a chance to claw back his money on paper. He owes 5m and he sold Pereira for 17m which is roughly what his leadership has cost us the last few years, 22m of losses.
Come the end of the season we may not be in the red technically but without any financial input and VI in charge we will almost certainly still be a EFL club which even if in the black is worth far less than a PL newcomer with a small amount of debt.
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You give them too much credit IMO. I think Lai viewed this season as a chance to claw back his money on paper. He owes 5m and he sold Pereira for 17m which is roughly what his leadership has cost us the last few years, 22m of losses.
Come the end of the season we may not be in the red technically but without any financial input and VI in charge we will almost certainly still be a EFL club which even if in the black is worth far less than a PL newcomer with a small amount of debt.
The bottom line with our Chinese owners, as with most owners of football clubs, is money. They cannot afford for WBA’svakue to nosedive even further.
They’re not adverse to sacking managers either. What they haven’t learnt is getting the timing of dismissals right.
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The bottom line with our Chinese owners, as with most owners of football clubs, is money. They cannot afford for WBA’svakue to nosedive even further.
They’re not adverse to sacking managers either. What they haven’t learnt is getting the timing of dismissals right.
I've got a feeling or hope rather that Lai accepts he won't get his money back but if he wants a good chunk of it back we need to be in the PL next season.
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I've got a feeling or hope rather that Lai accepts he won't get his money back but if he wants a good chunk of it back we need to be in the PL next season.
This is exactly the Groundhog Day / Eat, Sleep, Repeat situation the club and we as fans face each season under our Chinese owners.
Can’t believe they were stupid enough to give Val and his backroom staff a 4 year contract. Mind you, knowing the Albion, I bet they’re on peanuts. And you know the saying - you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
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We were better than Huddersfield and never in a million years should have lost.
However, there is clearly a problem with goalscoring.
If Ismael was picking the correct players and maximising chance creation, then few would have complaints.
Livermore is just a stopper not a creator, so the Manager is creating an unnecessary problem for himself.
That is absolutely nothing to do with the Chairman and 100% the Manager's responsibility.
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Deluded comments after the game by him.
I expect him to be gone by Monday.
I expect you to be disappointed.
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This is exactly the Groundhog Day / Eat, Sleep, Repeat situation the club and we as fans face each season under our Chinese owners.
Can’t believe they were stupid enough to give Val and his backroom staff a 4 year contract. Mind you, knowing the Albion, I bet they’re on peanuts. And you know the saying - you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
If Bilic was on 1m this guy wont be on that but if they havent put in a set amount of compensation they are dumber than thought possible. This move was always the bigger winner for VI than us.
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I said this in the aftermatch but think its worth stating again:
"We are playing a very high line with slow defenders with little pressure on the ball, what do you expect. Everyone can see this apart from this clueless and stubborn manager. If you have slow defenders that are good in the air you play them in a deep four and at least you have a solid base to build from but again its there for all to see but apparently not Val.
It's the first rule of management that the formation should fit the players you have and not try to shoehorn players into a system they cant play. Get this clown out of our club asap. Rant over!!"
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The dire football coupled with poor results must put him at risk. Doubt the owner will see it that way though
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No variation from getting the ball out wide to give them time to reset the defense so it's 6 defenders against 1 forward does not work. Not with this forward line. A Bednar type striker is needed if he wants to play that style.
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I said this in the aftermatch but think its worth stating again:
"We are playing a very high line with slow defenders with little pressure on the ball, what do you expect. Everyone can see this apart from this clueless and stubborn manager. If you have slow defenders that are good in the air you play them in a deep four and at least you have a solid base to build from but again its there for all to see but apparently not Val.
It's the first rule of management that the formation should fit the players you have and not try to shoehorn players into a system they cant play. Get this clown out of our club asap. Rant over!!"
I didn't watch the game but immediately cringed when I saw Kipre started over Ajayi. Whilst Ajayi was shaky in the Premier League, he proved with Bilic that he's a top defender at this level. I know he's not perfect but I don't know why he's not played more often.
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Can't play high line offside trpas with 3 slow CBs. Madness.
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Will he follow Ole Gunnar Solskjaer onto the dole queue?
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Will he follow Ole Gunnar Solskjaer onto the dole queue?
Lai will never have a cheaper or easier route of this division than this season so he needs to make a call and think whether he's going to risk a little to 'win it all' or risk nothing and lose it all.
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I think the coach will be given time and that is solely down to the compensation they paid to Barnsley, makes the play offs this season will be seen as success.
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I think he will and should be given time, i'm sick of us pulling the trigger every time. Easy for me to say though when i don't pay to watch us week in week out.
But he has to show more flexibility with that formation.
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I think automatic promotion may already be beyond our reach. And we know what a lottery the play offs are. I fear we have blown it big time, and are about to limp into obscurity once more, unless VI finds the magic formula, which I doubt will happen. Yes its doom and gloom, but I'm struggling to see anything else right now. Poor manager, no money to spend, owner that only cares about selling but wont or cant invest to help the club. Seriously, who would want to manage at our club??
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I think automatic promotion may already be beyond our reach. And we know what a lottery the play offs are. I fear we have blown it big time, and are about to limp into obscurity once more, unless VI finds the magic formula, which I doubt will happen. Yes its doom and gloom, but I'm struggling to see anything else right now. Poor manager, no money to spend, owner that only cares about selling but wont or cant invest to help the club. Seriously, who would want to manage at our club??
Correct, and remember 83 points and second place wasn't good enough last time at this level with players like Hal Robson Kanu. A section of our fans got what they wanted and two managers later just look how successful the club is after following their genius blueprint. We are well on our way to be ing a mid-table championship team without resources to compete for promotion.
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Bournemouth beaten by Derby today. I wonder if Parker facing calls for his dismissal.
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Bournemouth beaten by Derby today. I wonder if Parker facing calls for his dismissal.
In fairness to Scotty Parker, he hasn’t just lost 4 away games on the bounce. Plus his football is palatable.
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Bournemouth beaten by Derby today. I wonder if Parker facing calls for his dismissal.
Parker is doing much better than Val with a similar level of squad IMO.
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Parker is doing much better than Val with a similar level of squad IMO.
Only slightly better. And that can quickly change with a couple more defeats for B'mouth. Its worse to get beaten by Derby than by Huddersfield. I watched the last part of today's game and B'mouth were getting more players forward than us, but like us, just couldn't finish. Its too knee jerk to be talking about dismissal when we are top 3.
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Only slightly better. And that can quickly change with a couple more defeats for B'mouth. Its worse to get beaten by Derby than by Huddersfield. I watched the last part of today's game and B'mouth were getting more players forward than us, but like us, just couldn't finish. Its too knee jerk to be talking about dismissal when we are top 3.
We won't be top 3 for much longer with VI at the wheel.
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To me, the defense picks the ball up in their half and there is no outlet for them so they play it sideways or back...then back to midfield who see no outlet so back it goes until it's played out wide where it's 3 against 1 as this formation has been telegraphed since mid September.
This is what needs to be worked on.... immediately or the season will drift away.
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To me, the defense picks the ball up in their half and there is no outlet for them so they play it sideways or back...then back to midfield who see no outlet so back it goes until it's played out wide where it's 3 against 1 as this formation has been telegraphed since mid September.
This is what needs to be worked on.... immediately or the season will drift away.
You can see that Bosh, as can others. And yet, Val’s too damn stubborn to do anything about it. It’ll cost him his job.
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Parker is doing much better than Val with a similar level of squad IMO.
Parker has Solanke leading the line who has scored 15 goals this season. We have Hugil. Case closed.
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Parker has Solanke leading the line who has scored 15 goals this season. We have Hugil. Case closed.
What has Solanke got to do with all of VI daft decisions, lack of tactics, refusal to change etc? Case re-opened.
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Getting rid is probably going to cost between 5 and 8 million ……….nope nor me !
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Getting rid is probably going to cost between 5 and 8 million ……….nope nor me !
Lai is incredibly, incredibly, incredibly, incredibly dumb if he hasn't limited compo. No way VI is on 1m a year. If he is, well, then we go back to my opening sentence.
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Keep seeing about chances made , this side this season does not make what I would call clear chances , not loads anyway to say we get it forward quick and have 3 up top .
I don't call hopeful crosses or corners/throws chances either.
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He has seen his team booed off the pitch, he has governed over losing the last 4 away games and yet he still repeats what he has done wrong.
Unbelieveable.
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Keep seeing about chances made , this side this season does not make what I would call clear chances , not loads anyway to say we get it forward quick and have 3 up top .
I don't call hopeful crosses or corners/throws chances either.
I just looked at the highlights (on HTFC ifollow, so not edited in our favour) It was all us, we just can't score goals.
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Massive week upcoming for this Manager, Blackpool (A) & Forest (H). If we have 2 limp performances and fail to win its hard to see him staying on.
It will also get very toxic with the fans and they might start taking frustration out on individuals.
There is virtually no one backing Livermore on here, any numbers must be sub 10%. Yet he's trying to get the ban overturned with a view to carrying on picking him.
I can see it ending in tears and everyone pulling in different directions.
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Only slightly better. And that can quickly change with a couple more defeats for B'mouth. Its worse to get beaten by Derby than by Huddersfield. I watched the last part of today's game and B'mouth were getting more players forward than us, but like us, just couldn't finish. Its too knee jerk to be talking about dismissal when we are top 3.
A strange post 8pts is massively better they can lose the next two games and still be second whereas if we have a couple of defeats we could well be out of the top six .
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Lai is incredibly, incredibly, incredibly, incredibly dumb if he hasn't limited compo. No way VI is on 1m a year. If he is, well, then we go back to my opening sentence.
He will be on at least 1m per year, probably more, in my opinion. I have no facts at all to back this up but this is a crazy industry.
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What has Solanke got to do with all of VI daft decisions, lack of tactics, refusal to change etc? Case re-opened.
Similar level of squad? Just the comparison between.CF's suggests this is not the case.
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I think he will and should be given time, i'm sick of us pulling the trigger every time. Easy for me to say though when i don't pay to watch us week in week out.
But he has to show more flexibility with that formation.
I totally agree and do watch all home games together with some away. He has to be given time to build his own squad and that doesn’t happen overnight. Clearly results need to pick back up but the points we have from 18 games is not disastrous. More in game flexibility would be nice but the lack of any kind of centre forward or creative midfielder would hamper any team.
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We are now getting what we deserve. Too many fans calling for the manager to be sacked after a few bad games.
The reality of the situation is that we have been going downwards for a few seasons and the only way to stop it is to get some stability within the club and build a good young side which will take time , probably 2 or 3 seasons.
When we came down 1st time we had a great team and we were on the right track. In fact the 1st part of that season we were probably the best team in the division and that was a tough championship. If you look at the top 6 that season, Norwich, sheffield united, Leeds, us, Villa and frank lampards Derby. Anyone of those sides would walk away with this league. Since then we have gone backwards. Gayle went back, Rodriguez was sold, Dawson was sold. We bought in Pereira who got us promoted almost single handed without him we would never have made the play offs. But now there is nothing, no spark, no team.
We need to rebuild. Forget about promotion because we will never compete anyway and just get battered every other match by 5 like we did last time.
So just give this guy time get a plan where we blood the youngsters and maybe bring in some of the better league 1 players and then mould a team together capable of winning this division in the next 2 years.
All we have been in the last 2 seasons is a place for over the hill mediocre ex premier players getting a final pay packet and a place for free transfers. You can't build anything substantial on that.
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Can't add too much to what everyone can seem to see is the main issue, our lack of PlanB. Except one thing - perhaps we have not had the rub of the green with lady luck since Cardiff, dodgy red cards included, so perhaps we can hope for something going our way in the next couple of games to kick start a revival.
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It's been a while since I managed people, but I found the "kis (keep it simple) principle" to be a useful guideline.
I also wouldn't profess to have a detailed understanding of modern football tactics, but from observations:
We line up with 3 at the back, 4 in midfield & 3 at the front.
When we attack, the 2 wide midfield players push forward to give us 5 at the front
When we defend the 2 wide midfield players drop back to give us 5 at the back, at the same time 1 or 2 of the front players come into the midfield areas to retrieve the ball, which can come from either a ground or aerial route.
Now this, to me, is a pretty complex process, so to add on another one or two similarly complex processes would be absolutely mind blowing, even as an elite sportsman.
So I can see why VI doesn't have a plan B, we just need to get better at plan A.
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We are now getting what we deserve. Too many fans calling for the manager to be sacked after a few bad games.
The reality of the situation is that we have been going downwards for a few seasons and the only way to stop it is to get some stability within the club and build a good young side which will take time , probably 2 or 3 seasons.
When we came down 1st time we had a great team and we were on the right track. In fact the 1st part of that season we were probably the best team in the division and that was a tough championship. If you look at the top 6 that season, Norwich, sheffield united, Leeds, us, Villa and frank lampards Derby. Anyone of those sides would walk away with this league. Since then we have gone backwards. Gayle went back, Rodriguez was sold, Dawson was sold. We bought in Pereira who got us promoted almost single handed without him we would never have made the play offs. But now there is nothing, no spark, no team.
We need to rebuild. Forget about promotion because we will never compete anyway and just get battered every other match by 5 like we did last time.
So just give this guy time get a plan where we blood the youngsters and maybe bring in some of the better league 1 players and then mould a team together capable of winning this division in the next 2 years.
All we have been in the last 2 seasons is a place for over the hill mediocre ex premier players getting a final pay packet and a place for free transfers. You can't build anything substantial on that.
It’s impossible to build a young home-grown side, at least one good enough to go up. Any good young players will just get picked off by the bigger clubs, have their heads turned and they’re gone because they’ll run their contracts down. That’s where we are in the food chain I’m afraid. The best we can hope for is to sell well, scout well and reinvest whatever windfall player sales we generate.
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Similar level of squad? Just the comparison between.CF's suggests this is not the case.
TBF i have said many times to not get a quality CF is not VI fault but aside from that one position we are similar overall.
A few of our problems are VI own doing. We should be closer, a lot closer.
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I just looked at the highlights (on HTFC ifollow, so not edited in our favour) It was all us, we just can't score goals.
Tell me a glaring chance or a bad miss / great save ?
Another game where we created next to nothing other than sticking crosses on Sarrs head , its a fact its another keeper who has had little to do .
Teams sit deep and hunt in numbers because they know how we set up creates little from midfield and the front three are totally unsuited , frustrating that we seem to be doing this to ourselves as the main man is fixed on this formation sadly .
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It's been a while since I managed people, but I found the "kis (keep it simple) principle" to be a useful guideline.
I also wouldn't profess to have a detailed understanding of modern football tactics, but from observations:
We line up with 3 at the back, 4 in midfield & 3 at the front.
When we attack, the 2 wide midfield players push forward to give us 5 at the front
When we defend the 2 wide midfield players drop back to give us 5 at the back, at the same time 1 or 2 of the front players come into the midfield areas to retrieve the ball, which can come from either a ground or aerial route.
Now this, to me, is a pretty complex process, so to add on another one or two similarly complex processes would be absolutely mind blowing, even as an elite sportsman.
So I can see why VI doesn't have a plan B, we just need to get better at plan A.
Three months into the season and the performances are getting worse, not better.
Val wasn’t the fourth choice manager for no reason. He’s a really poor footballing tactician.
Here’s a useful keep it simple principle for Val - should he not pick up at least 4 points in the next two games…pack his bags and show him the door!
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Three months into the season and the performances are getting worse, not better.
Val wasn’t the fourth choice manager for no reason. He’s a really poor footballing tactician.
Here’s a useful keep it simple principle for Val - should he not pick up at least 4 points in the next two games…pack his bags and show him the door!
If we sack him and have to pay up his 4-year contract then we sure won’t be getting a striker in January!
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Three months into the season and the performances are getting worse, not better.
Val wasn’t the fourth choice manager for no reason. He’s a really poor footballing tactician.
Here’s a useful keep it simple principle for Val - should he not pick up at least 4 points in the next two games…pack his bags and show him the door!
He's signed a four year contract and we paid 2 million for him: he's going nowhere.
I can't stand the idea of sacking another a manager - I just wish he'd change/modify/become more flexible. However, we see no sign of this...
Judging by his aftermatch comments, it'll be more of the same for the next two. Really worrying.
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Tell me a glaring chance or a bad miss / great save ?
Another game where we created next to nothing other than sticking crosses on Sarrs head , its a fact its another keeper who has had little to do .
Teams sit deep and hunt in numbers because they know how we set up creates little from midfield and the front three are totally unsuited , frustrating that we seem to be doing this to ourselves as the main man is fixed on this formation sadly .
From memory:
Bartley had two good chances, headed one wide the other hit a HTFC player
Matt Clarke headed just wide
Townsend had a shot over the bar
Furlong hit a shot wide.
Should have had a penalty when one of our players was pushed to the floor.
In all that time HTFC had 2 shots, one of which they scored from.
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Three months into the season and the performances are getting worse, not better.
Val wasn’t the fourth choice manager for no reason. He’s a really poor footballing tactician.
Here’s a useful keep it simple principle for Val - should he not pick up at least 4 points in the next two games…pack his bags and show him the door!
OK, given the players we have, what would you do differently?
As I've said previously, I have no claims to understand advanced football tactics.
I understand why VI adopts the tactics he does, even though I don't particularly like the resulting aesthetics.
As I see it we have two problems;
We have the highest number of goals conceded from mistakes in the championship.
We also are top of the league for expected goals, which would suggest that we are creating chances but not converting them.
Cut out our mistakes at the back, and convert more of our chances & we're back in contention.
What we're experiencing at the moment is poor results, the aesthetics has never been good during VI's tenure.
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Given the increasing clamour for Valerien to be sacked, perhaps it's time to roll out a few stats. Firstly, his win percentage (league only) is currently 50%. I appreciate that sustaining that over a lengthy period for a club like ours is nigh on impossible but, to find an Albion manager who was in charge for 18 games or more who achieved a higher or equal win percentage than that during his time with us, you have to go back to Ossie Ardiles. Prior to that, it was Jesse Carver (1952-53) and before that...well there wasn't anyone.
Secondly, some people persist with comparing our current style of play to that of Pulis. We had 20 attempts on goal yesterday (as an aside, I think it's reasonable to regard a goal attempt as a chance) and I suspect that we never had 20 attempts on goal in a single game when Pulis was here, but I'm willing to be proven wrong if someone is determined enough to do so! The respective styles of play of Ismael and Pulis are simply not comparable in my view.
The "get the ball forward quickly and chase it down" style that there was too much of earlier in the season has gone, to the extent that we've now significantly dominated possession in a number of recent games, yesterday being an example (64.4%). Despite that change, the balance between the number of attempts for and those against has generally continued to be significantly in our favour.
People keep fretting about our high defensive line and yet only 2 clubs have conceded fewer goals than we have (Fulham and Bournemouth), so things don't appear to be anything like as bad defensively as some are making it out to be.
At the other end, for all the comments about our powder-puff attack and us creating a dearth of chances, only 4 teams have scored more goals than we have (Fulham, Bournemouth, QPR and Blackburn). 3 of those 4 clubs have individual players who've scored at least 14 goals so far.
Consequently, our goal difference remains the third best in the division.
Some other stats from whoscored.com (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022)
- Average shots for per game: 2nd (15.6)
- Average shots against per game: 1st (8 )
- Average possession percentage: 6th (53.5%)
- Average pass success percentage: 23rd (66.2%)
The final stat above is being improved upon lately of course (it was 79% yesterday).
Rather than dishing out endless brickbats to the manager, perhaps greater criticism would be more appropriately aimed at the Board for failing to sign a striker in the summer who would be capable of scoring 10+ goals?
If people regard the above stats and being third in the table as being deserving of the sack, perhaps the Club needs to switch to a model where managers only get a 6 month initial contract to determine whether the fans like them or not and then they get jettisoned if more than 50% of the fans want them to go, otherwise they get a longer contract. I'm sure such a short-termist approach would reap dividends..... ::)
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How do we know he did not get exactly what he asked for. Lots on here defending the lack of a striker but the whole game plan and turgid tactics are definitely VI . I don’t think the board will sack him but I think they made a mistake.
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Given the increasing clamour for Valerien to be sacked, perhaps it's time to roll out a few stats. Firstly, his win percentage (league only) is currently 50%. I appreciate that sustaining that over a lengthy period for a club like ours is nigh on impossible but, to find an Albion manager who was in charge for 18 games or more who achieved a higher or equal win percentage than that during his time with us, you have to go back to Ossie Ardiles. Prior to that, it was Jesse Carver (1952-53) and before that...well there wasn't anyone.
Secondly, some people persist with comparing our current style of play to that of Pulis. We had 20 attempts on goal yesterday (as an aside, I think it's reasonable to regard a goal attempt as a chance) and I suspect that we never had 20 attempts on goal in a single game when Pulis was here, but I'm willing to be proven wrong if someone is determined enough to do so! The respective styles of play of Ismael and Pulis are simply not comparable in my view.
The "get the ball forward quickly and chase it down" style that there was too much of earlier in the season has gone, to the extent that we've now significantly dominated possession in a number of recent games, yesterday being an example (64.4%). Despite that change, the balance between the number of attempts for and those against has generally continued to be significantly in our favour.
People keep fretting about our high defensive line and yet only 2 clubs have conceded fewer goals than we have (Fulham and Bournemouth), so things don't appear to be anything like as bad defensively as some are making it out to be.
At the other end, for all the comments about our powder-puff attack and us creating a dearth of chances, only 4 teams have scored more goals than we have (Fulham, Bournemouth, QPR and Blackburn). 3 of those 4 clubs have individual players who've scored at least 14 goals so far.
Consequently, our goal difference remains the third best in the division.
Some other stats from whoscored.com (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022)
- Average shots for per game: 2nd (15.6)
- Average shots against per game: 1st (8 )
- Average possession percentage: 6th (53.5%)
- Average pass success percentage: 23rd (66.2%)
The final stat above is being improved upon lately of course (it was 79% yesterday).
Rather than dishing out endless brickbats to the manager, perhaps greater criticism would be more appropriately aimed at the Board for failing to sign a striker in the summer who would be capable of scoring 10+ goals?
If people regard the above stats and being third in the table as being deserving of the sack, perhaps the Club needs to switch to a model where managers only get a 6 month initial contract to determine whether the fans like them or not and then they get jettisoned if more than 50% of the fans want them to go, otherwise they get a longer contract. I'm sure such a short-termist approach would reap dividends..... ::)
Pretty sure Val said he was happy with the squad prior to the summer transfer window closing. Those were his words I believe, not the WBA board.
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OK, given the players we have, what would you do differently?
As I've said previously, I have no claims to understand advanced football tactics.
I understand why VI adopts the tactics he does, even though I don't particularly like the resulting aesthetics.
As I see it we have two problems;
We have the highest number of goals conceded from mistakes in the championship.
We also are top of the league for expected goals, which would suggest that we are creating chances but not converting them.
Cut out our mistakes at the back, and convert more of our chances & we're back in contention.
What we're experiencing at the moment is poor results, the aesthetics has never been good during VI's tenure.
Val would do better adopting a formation that incorporates a flat back four, so either 4-5-1 or 4-4-2. That would probably go a long way in reducing the mistakes at the back.
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Pretty sure Val said he was happy with the squad prior to the summer transfer window closing. Those were his words I believe, not the WBA board.
Post modified - Dexy.
He was hardly likely to go throwing his weight around within a couple of months of being appointed. It's not like he has a long managerial history to give him much influence over the Board.
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Val complained that we had 20 shots but only 2 on target but highlights didn't show one good chance a lot being trying to head loose balls with no pace.
The only good effort was Taylor Hickman's shot from just outside the area.
Incidentally we should have had a penalty and Kipre should concentrate on defending rather than appealing for offside.
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Given the increasing clamour for Valerien to be sacked, perhaps it's time to roll out a few stats. Firstly, his win percentage (league only) is currently 50%. I appreciate that sustaining that over a lengthy period for a club like ours is nigh on impossible but, to find an Albion manager who was in charge for 18 games or more who achieved a higher or equal win percentage than that during his time with us, you have to go back to Ossie Ardiles. Prior to that, it was Jesse Carver (1952-53) and before that...well there wasn't anyone.
Secondly, some people persist with comparing our current style of play to that of Pulis. We had 20 attempts on goal yesterday (as an aside, I think it's reasonable to regard a goal attempt as a chance) and I suspect that we never had 20 attempts on goal in a single game when Pulis was here, but I'm willing to be proven wrong if someone is determined enough to do so! The respective styles of play of Ismael and Pulis are simply not comparable in my view.
The "get the ball forward quickly and chase it down" style that there was too much of earlier in the season has gone, to the extent that we've now significantly dominated possession in a number of recent games, yesterday being an example (64.4%). Despite that change, the balance between the number of attempts for and those against has generally continued to be significantly in our favour.
People keep fretting about our high defensive line and yet only 2 clubs have conceded fewer goals than we have (Fulham and Bournemouth), so things don't appear to be anything like as bad defensively as some are making it out to be.
At the other end, for all the comments about our powder-puff attack and us creating a dearth of chances, only 4 teams have scored more goals than we have (Fulham, Bournemouth, QPR and Blackburn). 3 of those 4 clubs have individual players who've scored at least 14 goals so far.
Consequently, our goal difference remains the third best in the division.
Some other stats from whoscored.com (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022)
- Average shots for per game: 2nd (15.6)
- Average shots against per game: 1st (8 )
- Average possession percentage: 6th (53.5%)
- Average pass success percentage: 23rd (66.2%)
The final stat above is being improved upon lately of course (it was 79% yesterday).
Rather than dishing out endless brickbats to the manager, perhaps greater criticism would be more appropriately aimed at the Board for failing to sign a striker in the summer who would be capable of scoring 10+ goals?
If people regard the above stats and being third in the table as being deserving of the sack, perhaps the Club needs to switch to a model where managers only get a 6 month initial contract to determine whether the fans like them or not and then they get jettisoned if more than 50% of the fans want them to go, otherwise they get a longer contract. I'm sure such a short-termist approach would reap dividends..... ::)
This is sort of where I am with the current situation. Whilst he is trying, I do think Ismael has to be a little more inventive with patterns of play and means of attack; we are a bit too functional which leads to slow possession out to the wing back to cross. Whilst we are creating chances, they've not been clear cut at all recently.
A good target man striker who is a threat in the box aerially goes a long way for this side I feel. It's a long season and whilst Ismael's chosen style of play isn't my favourite, he is here now on a long deal, he is doing ok and is worth backing in my view.
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From memory:
Bartley had two good chances, headed one wide the other hit a HTFC player
Matt Clarke headed just wide
Townsend had a shot over the bar
Furlong hit a shot wide.
Should have had a penalty when one of our players was pushed to the floor.
In all that time HTFC had 2 shots, one of which they scored from.
This is exactly my point , not one of those is a clear cut chance . Bartleys were half chances at best , Townsend's was half , I think you mean TGH effort which was our nearest but didnt hit the target . Clarke should have done better granted . Ward missed a absolute sitter for 2 nil.
The above sums my point up , all half chances from defenders and mainly from lofted balls or set pieces .
Theres little from midfield because Val doesn't set up that way or can't see past Livermore and again nothing from the revolving front three . Poor .
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Given the increasing clamour for Valerien to be sacked, perhaps it's time to roll out a few stats. Firstly, his win percentage (league only) is currently 50%. I appreciate that sustaining that over a lengthy period for a club like ours is nigh on impossible but, to find an Albion manager who was in charge for 18 games or more who achieved a higher or equal win percentage than that during his time with us, you have to go back to Ossie Ardiles. Prior to that, it was Jesse Carver (1952-53) and before that...well there wasn't anyone.
Secondly, some people persist with comparing our current style of play to that of Pulis. We had 20 attempts on goal yesterday (as an aside, I think it's reasonable to regard a goal attempt as a chance) and I suspect that we never had 20 attempts on goal in a single game when Pulis was here, but I'm willing to be proven wrong if someone is determined enough to do so! The respective styles of play of Ismael and Pulis are simply not comparable in my view.
The "get the ball forward quickly and chase it down" style that there was too much of earlier in the season has gone, to the extent that we've now significantly dominated possession in a number of recent games, yesterday being an example (64.4%). Despite that change, the balance between the number of attempts for and those against has generally continued to be significantly in our favour.
People keep fretting about our high defensive line and yet only 2 clubs have conceded fewer goals than we have (Fulham and Bournemouth), so things don't appear to be anything like as bad defensively as some are making it out to be.
At the other end, for all the comments about our powder-puff attack and us creating a dearth of chances, only 4 teams have scored more goals than we have (Fulham, Bournemouth, QPR and Blackburn). 3 of those 4 clubs have individual players who've scored at least 14 goals so far.
Consequently, our goal difference remains the third best in the division.
Some other stats from whoscored.com (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022)
- Average shots for per game: 2nd (15.6)
- Average shots against per game: 1st (8 )
- Average possession percentage: 6th (53.5%)
- Average pass success percentage: 23rd (66.2%)
The final stat above is being improved upon lately of course (it was 79% yesterday).
Rather than dishing out endless brickbats to the manager, perhaps greater criticism would be more appropriately aimed at the Board for failing to sign a striker in the summer who would be capable of scoring 10+ goals?
If people regard the above stats and being third in the table as being deserving of the sack, perhaps the Club needs to switch to a model where managers only get a 6 month initial contract to determine whether the fans like them or not and then they get jettisoned if more than 50% of the fans want them to go, otherwise they get a longer contract. I'm sure such a short-termist approach would reap dividends..... ::)
Genuine question , are you actually sitting through these 90 mins or just waving online stats ?.
Trouble with stats is they can be bent to show what you like , I've seen a side create very little over the last 4 away defeats and score one goal . I've also seen 4 goalkeepers have very little to do only collect routine lofted set pieces or crosses , I've also seen big, lumbering defenders dominate our forwards because our only open play tactic is working it wide and putting crosses in when we don't have a forward any good at all in the air .Stats don't tell you that.
The football is different from Pulis but he was up against top draw players not a very weak 2nd tier , VI is more like Bobby Gould right now for my money .
Not into sackings at all but this bloke is hanging himself with his stubborn attitude regarding systems and certain players .
Absolute dross to watch If I'm being honest right now.
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Genuine question , are you actually sitting through these 90 mins or just waving online stats ?.
Trouble with stats is they can be bent to show what you like , I've seen a side create very little over the last 4 away defeats and score one goal . I've also seen 4 goalkeepers have very little to do only collect routine lofted set pieces or crosses , I've also seen big, lumbering defenders dominate our forwards because our only open play tactic is working it wide and putting crosses in when we don't have a forward any good at all in the air .Stats don't tell you that.
The football is different from Pulis but he was up against top draw players not a very weak 2nd tier , VI is more like Bobby Gould right now for my money .
Not into sackings at all but this bloke is hanging himself with his stubborn attitude regarding systems and certain players .
Absolute dross to watch If I'm being honest right now.
Great post Dexy, my sentiments exactly, we are losing to bang average teams now, and four away defeats in a row at this level is a damn disgrace.
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I feel like this is a key week for VI , Huddersfield was another stumbling poor performance with the same mistakes as recent months . These players don't look comfortable playing this style , we should be playing better football than we are at this level with all due respect and I think they know it . I don't agree with booing but can understand it to a degree , for what we have to pay to watch over a season this isn't good enough .
Unless VI changes things ( or Livermore's ban stands ) i suspect we'll limp to maybe a draw and a loss then VI will really be in the danger zone .
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Genuine question , are you actually sitting through these 90 mins or just waving online stats ?.
Trouble with stats is they can be bent to show what you like , I've seen a side create very little over the last 4 away defeats and score one goal . I've also seen 4 goalkeepers have very little to do only collect routine lofted set pieces or crosses , I've also seen big, lumbering defenders dominate our forwards because our only open play tactic is working it wide and putting crosses in when we don't have a forward any good at all in the air .Stats don't tell you that.
The football is different from Pulis but he was up against top draw players not a very weak 2nd tier , VI is more like Bobby Gould right now for my money .
Not into sackings at all but this bloke is hanging himself with his stubborn attitude regarding systems and certain players .
Absolute dross to watch If I'm being honest right now.
Appreciate this post wasn't aimed at me, but I thought your sentence in bold was worth commenting on.
It's absolutely true that the football under VI is a difficult watch & although the approach is different, it's the same difficult watch as Pulis was.
The performance statistics from both managers tend to suggest that the tactics work more often than not.
I can absolutely buy into the argument that the football is dross, but the majority of our losses are down to individual mistakes, so it's difficult to argue that the tactics are wrong.
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Appreciate this post wasn't aimed at me, but I thought your sentence in bold was worth commenting on.
It's absolutely true that the football under VI is a difficult watch & although the approach is different, it's the same difficult watch as Pulis was.
The performance statistics from both managers tend to suggest that the tactics work more often than not.
I can absolutely buy into the argument that the football is dross, but the majority of our losses are down to individual mistakes, so it's difficult to argue that the tactics are wrong.
Its awful and predictable to watch John , every game we try the same two things . Its not working and hasn't for quite a number of months now , there is also a duty to entertain to a degree at this level knowing that if we go up it will be backs to the wall most weeks .
You say individual errors , the high line is killing us and forcing mistakes out of our own defenders for starters .
The last four away games I'd say we have been broken through 6 or 7 times , thats down to VI .
The 2 in the middle , again a poor tactic from VI . We get outnumbered most games yet its still the same , we create next to nothing from centre midfield and at this level thats not good enough .
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It’s impossible to build a young home-grown side, at least one good enough to go up. Any good young players will just get picked off by the bigger clubs, have their heads turned and they’re gone because they’ll run their contracts down. That’s where we are in the food chain I’m afraid. The best we can hope for is to sell well, scout well and reinvest whatever windfall player sales we generate.
It's not impossible because you have given the answer yourself. Any good youngsters put on long contracts. If premier clubs come sniffing just put a large transfer fee on the player and stick to it. Then if they go at least we will have the funds to reinvest on new players.
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Genuine question , are you actually sitting through these 90 mins or just waving online stats ?.
I don't go anymore for financial and, more recently, health issues but I do see games on Sky at the moment when they're shown live. I accept that the considered views of those who do go should rightly carry more weight.
Not into sackings at all but this bloke is hanging himself with his stubborn attitude regarding systems and certain players .
Absolute dross to watch If I'm being honest right now.
I've regularly written about my disdain for sacred cows over the years and felt that Valerien would be someone who wouldn't continue in that vein but, unfortunately, he has with regard to Livermore and it frustrates me greatly. Just because someone is captain doesn't give him a divine right to be picked every week regardless of performance levels.
We've lost our high-pressing intensity and I think the only thing that will bring that back now is greater squad rotation. It'll be interesting to see what happens with that when we have another 3 games this week.
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I don't go anymore for financial and, more recently, health issues but I do see games on Sky at the moment when they're shown live. I accept that the considered views of those who do go should rightly carry more weight.I've regularly written about my disdain for sacred cows over the years and felt that Valerien would be someone who wouldn't continue in that vein but, unfortunately, he has with regard to Livermore and it frustrates me greatly. Just because someone is captain doesn't give him a divine right to be picked every week regardless of performance levels.
We've lost our high-pressing intensity and I think the only thing that will bring that back now is greater squad rotation. It'll be interesting to see what happens with that when we have another 3 games this week.
See as I posted stats can be bent all over , yes we are in the the right areas of late but do very little with it ....our genuine good chances wouldn't make good reading right now. Far too easy to play against.
I too didn't think VI would allow certain players to dip below the level needed yet still get picked nor be as stubborn on certain tactics . I can only see this going one way.
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I don't go anymore for financial and, more recently, health issues but I do see games on Sky at the moment when they're shown live. I accept that the considered views of those who do go should rightly carry more weight.I've regularly written about my disdain for sacred cows over the years and felt that Valerien would be someone who wouldn't continue in that vein but, unfortunately, he has with regard to Livermore and it frustrates me greatly. Just because someone is captain doesn't give him a divine right to be picked every week regardless of performance levels.
We've lost our high-pressing intensity and I think the only thing that will bring that back now is greater squad rotation. It'll be interesting to see what happens with that when we have another 3 games this week.
Dare I say that Allardyce spotted it straight away??? ;D
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Dare I say that Allardyce spotted it straight away??? ;D
Allardyce spotted many things wrong straight away wrong with the club whatever anyone thinks of him.
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Allardyce would have been the perfect man to take us forward as I stated to much derision at the time but it was never going to happen as he would have wanted money to spend which we clearly weren't about to give him as we are what we are, sadly.
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Allardyce spotted many things wrong straight away wrong with the club whatever anyone thinks of him.
The football wasn't great with Allardyce. Even half chances would have been savoured in some of his Pulis type games.
It's said we have a squad comparable with Bournemouth but the obvious and glaring Hugill-Solanke comparison aside, Billings is so much better than Livermore, Kilkenny better than Molumby and Brooks as good as Mowatt - not forgetting that waiting in the wings is HalesOwen's own Morgan Richards.
Since the departure of Pereira, do we even have anyone to compare with Marcondes?
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I could back Ismael and make a case for him staying had I been able to recognise what we're trying to do on the pitch.
Unfortunately, we just look totally out of sorts caught between two very contrasting styles.
The unique selling point to his appointment has been jettisoned yet we have retained the formation and high defensive line.
There has definitely been a change in emphasis within the last couple of weeks - the kick and rush element has gone from our play and we seem intent on trying to keep the ball more.
However, our possession is extremely basic. We consist of trying to work the ball into wide areas for a beyond average forward line.
It almost feels like we're keeping the ball for the sake of it but not actually moving up the pitch as a team. It doesn't help that one of our midfielders is so poor in possession of the ball.
I've seen a number of sides over the last couple of weeks who when they've retained possession move it with a bit of purpose. They might be lacking in quality but you can see what they've worked on. Coventry, Blackburn, QPR, Forest, Stoke as examples. I wouldn't say they are sides with barnstorming quality in this division. They would probably jump at the chance to get some of our players. Yet they seemingly look better coached than we do.
The real saving grace is that this is a very poor division - if this was a championship of a yesteryear then we would be stuffed.
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Val would do better adopting a formation that incorporates a flat back four, so either 4-5-1 or 4-4-2. That would probably go a long way in reducing the mistakes at the back.
Val has said he wants sufficient players attacking the opposition goal, but I have a feeling both of your formations would mean the back line dropping deeper. To keep up the pressure on the oppostion goal we need players getting forward.
If the back line drops deeper, you create a larger void in midfield, so the defenders just hoof it forward. Also you allow the opposition control of the midfield.
It comes down to, do you a) drop deep and create a large void in midfield, or b) do you play a high line, play the offside trap , but (unlike Saturday) stick with any runners until the ref blows his whistle for offside? I much prefer b) but the defenders have got to be sharp enough to cover any runners and SJ has to be alert and come out when necessary.
I for one am pleased that at last we have a manager who wants to play the game in the opposition half. Of course it can go wrong, but I'd rather that than being stuck in your own half and hope to nick a 1-0.
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The football wasn't great with Allardyce. Even half chances would have been savoured in some of his Pulis type games.
It's said we have a squad comparable with Bournemouth but the obvious and glaring Hugill-Solanke comparison aside, Billings is so much better than Livermore, Kilkenny better than Molumby and Brooks as good as Mowatt - not forgetting that waiting in the wings is HalesOwen's own Morgan Richards.
Since the departure of Pereira, do we even have anyone to compare with Marcondes?
I think Marcondes is ok but nothing special. Would have had him on a free though!
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We are now getting what we deserve. Too many fans calling for the manager to be sacked after a few bad games.
The reality of the situation is that we have been going downwards for a few seasons and the only way to stop it is to get some stability within the club and build a good young side which will take time , probably 2 or 3 seasons.
When we came down 1st time we had a great team and we were on the right track. In fact the 1st part of that season we were probably the best team in the division and that was a tough championship. If you look at the top 6 that season, Norwich, sheffield united, Leeds, us, Villa and frank lampards Derby. Anyone of those sides would walk away with this league. Since then we have gone backwards. Gayle went back, Rodriguez was sold, Dawson was sold. We bought in Pereira who got us promoted almost single handed without him we would never have made the play offs. But now there is nothing, no spark, no team.
We need to rebuild. Forget about promotion because we will never compete anyway and just get battered every other match by 5 like we did last time.
So just give this guy time get a plan where we blood the youngsters and maybe bring in some of the better league 1 players and then mould a team together capable of winning this division in the next 2 years.
All we have been in the last 2 seasons is a place for over the hill mediocre ex premier players getting a final pay packet and a place for free transfers. You can't build anything substantial on that.
I agree in principal, but is the money for the rebuild. We can't keep our best youngsters so will have to look elsewhere to some degree.
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Val is clearly struggling (the majority of the players he inherited) but I will always advocate giving the manager time. If we think just changing the manager is the solution to West Brom's future we are kidding ourselves. Each of the recent managers have had a somewhat fractious relationship with the hierarchy, maybe the manager hasn't always been the problem. There is so much wrong above Val its scary...
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Val is clearly struggling (the majority of the players he inherited) but I will always advocate giving the manager time. If we think just changing the manager is the solution to West Brom's future we are kidding ourselves. Each of the recent managers have had a somewhat fractious relationship with the hierarchy, maybe the manager hasn't always been the problem. There is so much wrong above Val its scary...
I don't necessarily want to change the manager, I just want the manager to change.
No-one lauded Lai when we were winning at the beginning of the season, so it's difficult to blame him now we are poor. This is the same squad, and manager, that hammered Sheff U, Luton, Cardiff and BC.
Val knows what he has to work with and that won't change until January so he has to adapt. He either goes full on back to the basics of intense press and kick and rush, or, if he wants to go down the possession route, he has to pick players that are comfortable on the ball and play them in a formation that both maximises and protects them.
At the minute we are doing neither and it's all very discombobulated.
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The thing is with Albion we usually pick the right manager at the right time. Of recent ones only Pardew was a complete disaster and totally wrong for us. Billic was great but we pulled the trigger too soon and Big Sam was a lottery ticket with the players we had. How I wished he’d have stayed for this year though, we’d be a lot more in touch with the top 2. Sure the football wasn’t great but he knew how to organise a team which is where Val is completely out of his depth presently.
Managers start to lose players when they don’t see the results of the ideas you are giving them. I hate to say it but a few look like they’ve lost all faith in his tactics.
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I don't necessarily want to change the manager, I just want the manager to change.
No-one lauded Lai when we were winning at the beginning of the season, so it's difficult to blame him now we are poor. This is the same squad, and manager, that hammered Sheff U, Luton, Cardiff and BC.
Val knows what he has to work with and that won't change until January so he has to adapt. He either goes full on back to the basics of intense press and kick and rush, or, if he wants to go down the possession route, he has to pick players that are comfortable on the ball and play them in a formation that both maximises and protects them.
At the minute we are doing neither and it's all very discombobulated.
Your first sentence sums it up perfectly.
I don't want Ismael sacked - I want him to change.
He's a likeable bloke, lets hope he changes, but given what I've seen I don't suspect he will.
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We can rant on about Valerien Ismael all we like but fundamentally we do not have a well-run club and haven't since Peace got shot of us. We have an absentee owner who is the front for a number of stakeholders in the holding company. His man over here on point has not exhibited any evidence that he understands football. Over the past few years the single and overriding objective has been to get hold of Premier league money at the expense of anything else like long term development or attractive football.
When we replaced Ashworth with the contracts lawyer Garlick is the point where we gave up any pretence at long-term re-structuring and development.
It's easy to hurl brickbats at the manager but his masters are a completely uninspiring mess without any vision. All we can do is support our team without booing and hope Val and his team can make the best of a bad job.
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We can rant on about Valerien Ismael all we like but fundamentally we do not have a well-run club and haven't since Peace got shot of us. We have an absentee owner who is the front for a number of stakeholders in the holding company. His man over here on point has not exhibited any evidence that he understands football. Over the past few years the single and overriding objective has been to get hold of Premier league money at the expense of anything else like long term development or attractive football.
When we replaced Ashworth with the contracts lawyer Garlick is the point where we gave up any pretence at long-term re-structuring and development.
It's easy to hurl brickbats at the manager but his masters are a completely uninspiring mess without any vision. All we can do is support our team without booing and hope Val and his team can make the best of a bad job.
True. The worst thing we did was selling for Pereira for £17m, which was 1/3 of his true value.
However, Ismael is making life hard for himself by picking Livermore and Bartley. The football is ineffective and the results poor. There is little sign he is learning on the job.
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Dare I say that Allardyce spotted it straight away??? ;D
Given his 4 wins in 26 games and an appalling goal difference, it's all he did spot.
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I could back Ismael and make a case for him staying had I been able to recognise what we're trying to do on the pitch.
Unfortunately, we just look totally out of sorts caught between two very contrasting styles.
The unique selling point to his appointment has been jettisoned yet we have retained the formation and high defensive line.
There has definitely been a change in emphasis within the last couple of weeks - the kick and rush element has gone from our play and we seem intent on trying to keep the ball more.
However, our possession is extremely basic. We consist of trying to work the ball into wide areas for a beyond average forward line.
It almost feels like we're keeping the ball for the sake of it but not actually moving up the pitch as a team. It doesn't help that one of our midfielders is so poor in possession of the ball.
I've seen a number of sides over the last couple of weeks who when they've retained possession move it with a bit of purpose. They might be lacking in quality but you can see what they've worked on. Coventry, Blackburn, QPR, Forest, Stoke as examples. I wouldn't say they are sides with barnstorming quality in this division. They would probably jump at the chance to get some of our players. Yet they seemingly look better coached than we do.
The real saving grace is that this is a very poor division - if this was a championship of a yesteryear then we would be stuffed.
Totally Agree with this, we didn't press at all and haven't for a long time.
definitely in the middle of two styles at the moment and look a totally different team to the one that scared teams to death in the first four games.
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Allardyce spotted many things wrong straight away wrong with the club whatever anyone thinks of him.
Yes he did. Sadly he didn’t fix any of them and left like a bullet from a gun when he knew the budget for this season.
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I'm not going to be able to catch up with all the posts on this thread since Saturday but I get the general impression Val's been sent to the naughty corner ;D .
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Yes he did. Sadly he didn’t fix any of them and left like a bullet from a gun when he knew the budget for this season.
Who can blame him?
Should he have forked out for the players personally?
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Ismael now has a chance to play mowatt and molumby and hopefully that new look midfield with more technical ability and energy and save his own neck.
I credit him for playing TGH the other day. He can earn even more credit by giving young Cleary a chance on the bench.
Perhaps go back to robinson grant and diangana like how we started the season when we were at our best?
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True. The worst thing we did was selling for Pereira for £17m, which was 1/3 of his true value.
However, Ismael is making life hard for himself by picking Livermore and Bartley. The football is ineffective and the results poor. There is little sign he is learning on the job.
Agree to some extent with Greg, but Livermore and Bartley are probably not much, or even no worse than the options we have in their positions. We have a very poor squad. In midfield those that may have talent lack experience, and the experienced ones are not now, over-endowed with talent. The best defensive option is injured and so is possibly the second best. We have lacked a 'striker' and/or a centre forward for many seasons now. The spine of the team is weak, and has been for at least the last 3 maybe 4 seasons now. We do not have the players to play the expansive passing style we would all like to see. Investment has not been forthcoming to address this and when we did, through a stroke of fortune partially cover the cracks with MP, but for various, possibly valid reasons let him go for nowhere near his value at the time. The club is fast approaching being no longer fit for purpose, young players seem be increasingly losing interest in a future with us. The short term approach of ownership is being reflected and matched by some of the support who constantly honking for a change of manager every five minutes are beginning to sound more like the fish eating 'big club' down the road.
Although now not at all expecting, nor sure I am particularly bothered, about a swift return and stay in the cash-induced sunshine of the premier league, I will always be a Baggies man. I hope that our results and playing style will eventually be more pleasing, but I am not yet ready to be over-critical of VI who does appear to have changed a bit to suit what we have and needs time and money to work the miracle we are hoping for. As supporters we can only give him time.
So in the meantime I will still keep dragging myself to the shrine when my health allows, and will still carry on yelling vocal support for our lot (all of em), and criticising (abusing) inept/bent officiating in a very loud voice. Might even in true baggies style, even applaud good play by opponents; when the navy blue and white stripes in my heart and behind my eyeballs allow me to see it.
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Who launched the phrases "We can score anytime" or "we can score when we want to? "
We have scored 13 goals this season in 14 of our matches and it is obvious we don't have a top goalscorer
and even if we did we are hardly creating good opportunities.
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Who can blame him?
Should he have forked out for the players personally?
Of course not. I am not a fan thats all and, despite our current woes, am glad he did leave.
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Of course not. I am not a fan thats all and, despite our current woes, am glad he did leave.
Fair enough mate but his team was superior to the one he inherited IMO. Can't really say more than that without going over old ground which no one wants or needs.
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Fair enough mate but his team was superior to the one he inherited IMO. Can't really say more than that without going over old ground which no one wants or needs.
Aaaahhaaaah men.....
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Never wanted him,but always willing to give someone some time once appointed certainly have absolutely no faith in him now to turn this around, if anything he’s made us and the players worse.
People on the after match (aftermath) thread on about we need a striker, there’s a bloke called Robinson who keeps being picked and scores for Ireland, he also quite like playing against small teams like Chelsea ……maybe we should be in for him?
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I feel like this is a key week for VI , Huddersfield was another stumbling poor performance with the same mistakes as recent months . These players don't look comfortable playing this style , we should be playing better football than we are at this level with all due respect and I think they know it . I don't agree with booing but can understand it to a degree , for what we have to pay to watch over a season this isn't good enough .
Unless VI changes things ( or Livermore's ban stands ) i suspect we'll limp to maybe a draw and a loss then VI will really be in the danger zone .
I'm 50% correct so far , can see Forest pulling us apart if we arent careful .
Yes his strikers are poor but the way we set up limits our midfielders and I for one am sick of seeing lofty balls bouncing about in the box with our 6ft plus defenders falling on their arses trying to get a shot away .Months of that is partly why they don't have much confidence in front of goal .
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the last two months have been very poor, he will be given a lot more time but i fear our season will be over by the time anyone from China notices.
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the last two months have been very poor, he will be given a lot more time but i fear our season will be over by the time anyone from China notices.
They will notice when cash starts dropping , empty seats at home are becoming a bit more regular . They can fiddle the total all they like crowd wise .
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This bloke needs to go. The players we have do not suit him. We cannot afford the players he needs. It is a mis-match of the highest order.
Club wouldn't pay compo for Steve Cooper or someone else and ended up paying more for VI. Panic stations nonstop for the last 5 years since Lai took over.
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Please get rid of this clown
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I’m afraid yes he has to go. To raw and naive. Not ready to manage at this level. I wanted him to do well but it’s not going to happen.
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Not into early sacking but this bloke hangs himself , stubborn beyond belief.
Never heard this much booing so early .
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Not one tactical change all season. We’re getting worse as a team and individually. Got to go.
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He has to go for me. Absolutely clueless, ok he did well at Barnsley with no expectations, though now he is being found out. No tactics, kick and run. ********
Makes Tony Pulis look a football genius.
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His changes make us worse, clearly fell out with snodgrass so we’ve just ended up with Mowatt in centre mid with Reach some kind of left winger/centre mid hybrid. Awful
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Worst of all is the bloke accepts no responsibility. Came in as this big, honest tough talking guy but cowers in every post match interview.
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Not one tactical change all season. We’re getting worse as a team and individually. Got to go.
Only time we get a change is when we go to 10 men
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Coach? How did he get his badge?
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Coach? How did he get his badge?
He's got one. The '3-4-3 press' badge. Failed the rest.
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We’ve had 6 head coaches since we binned off Pulis, we’ve been consistently ***** throughout all of them. The only enjoyment I’ve had from watching us play in the last 7-8 years were the games when Pereira was on form, besides that it’s been dull and uninspiring.
We could sack VI tonight but there’s nobody who could come in and turn this club around when we have no money to spend and our recruitment is so poor.
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Genuinely hoping he realises he is killing his career here as well as killing us. A mutual parting of ways would be best for both parties.
Not many will be watching him ruin this squad, at this level, and think he's a good manager.
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Bye Val. Time to go
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Waiting for the usual intensity and philosophy buzzword rubbish that wore l thin after his third interview. Can’t wait for the same formation and 60 minute substitution in the next game. Got to go.
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This is becoming laughable. VI is lost. His only tactic doesn't work and he is either incapable or incompetent when it comes to managing. Mid table at best if he's still here in May. Unbelievably bad appointment. But as I've said before, no manager worth his salt was going to be interested and I fear there will be even less wanting to be employed by these muppets running the club. This is a complete cluster****
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I, along with many others on here i'm sure have managed even at Amateur level and if you can't adapt, you lose.
A professional manager with 1, and only 1 strategy, is not a manager to me.
Get him gone.
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We’ve had 6 head coaches since we binned off Pulis, we’ve been consistently s***e throughout all of them. The only enjoyment I’ve had from watching us play in the last 7-8 years were the games when Pereira was on form, besides that it’s been dull and uninspiring.
We could sack VI tonight but there’s nobody who could come in and turn this club around when we have no money to spend and our recruitment is so poor.
We seem to have changed from the pressing game we were playing first few games, yet we were winning games and suffocating teams with the press. We changed when teams backed off which is fine. Now teams are playing through us so why not revert to what we were? No tactical changes in games, no movement, can’t convert changes we do get. He’s not giving youth a chance, that hugill miss at the end falls to cleary and we’re leaving with 3 points.
Trust me when I say, if we don’t go up this year we are stuck in this league. We are skint and the three teams that come down will be strong in this league whereas we will cut costs again. Get a proper manager in that adapts to his players and we’ll have a chance. This league is so poor and we’re making a pigs ear of it.
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I find it staggering, absolutely beyond belief that our performances and now results have been so bad yet no tactical change. It’s frankly unbelievable. It’s like Val won a competition to manage the team with zero experience.
Today he’s saved by the fact we went to ten men
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His Sky interview in summary:
"Point satisfactory after red card
Hugill should score
4 Clear chances to score, need to take chances
Tough game but felt we controlled it
Need to get over the line, problem since day 1
Will work with the boys, glad to have a week to work on finishing for Cov game.
Lot of games till Jan window. We can score goals but not at the moment. Jan window far away"
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Pundits nailing it. We’re not creating genuine chances and it’s down to style of play.
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Just seen on sky we have 12 points from the last 10 games. Jesus, I knew it was bad, but didn’t realise it was that bad. He’s surely on the brink
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Agree Gaz, but can’t see it happening.
Nor can I see anyone who was recently in Norfolk happening
Didn't Jokanovich and Sheff Utd come to a mutual parting of ways? A small amount of compo paid. Both sides admit it hasn't worked out. Both walked away before damage was done.
Been here before with Bilic. When the damage is done, it's done. No way back.
Ismael and the club/players do NOT fit.
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VI out. Didn't think I'd say it but what more proof do you need.
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There seems to be a real swell of people calling for him to leave.
I think this is going to gain traction
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Agree Gaz, but can’t see it happening.
Nor can I see anyone who was recently in Norfolk happening
I am qualified and available on this basis
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Looks like he's lost the players as well as the fans, they do not look happy and haven't looked happy for a while. No plan B and seems like he's threw Plan A out the window as well, hasn't been backed by the board but hasn't helped himself either. Needs to go now.
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Didn't Jokanovich and Sheff Utd come to a mutual parting of ways? A small amount of compo paid. Both sides admit it hasn't worked out. Both walked away before damage was done.
Been here before with Bilic. When the damage is done, it's done. No way back.
Ismael and the club/players do NOT fit.
Jokanovich has gone from Sheff Utd?!
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Jokanovich has gone from Sheff Utd?!
Yes Lewis, yesterday.
Players didn't suit his style and no money to get who he wanted so both sides were sensible and called it a day.
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Jokanovich has gone from Sheff Utd?!
Yep, Paul Heckingbottom appointed
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Yes Lewis, yesterday.
Players didn't suit his style and no money to get who he wanted so both sides were sensible and called it a day.
There in lies the problem. Our club hasn't done anything sensible for years
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I actually didn't know that, interesting.
I don't trust anybody in this club to make a decent appointment.
For me it would be a meeting this week asking him about his "philosophy" and why he never changes tactics and makes the same subs. I'd also apologise for Hugill and promise a decent CF in January if he can be more flexible tactically and say if you show no flexibility and results don't change then a CF in January will be irrelevant to you my friend.
Managers have to change in all jobs, I'm a manager and i've had to change. It's part of being a manager; adapting to what you have and playing to people's strengths in any occupation.
Come on Val - sort it out!!
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You are a glass half full person Lewis!!
Val won't change because he can't. This is all he has.
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Look what Steve Cooper has done with that Forest squad. We can only look on with envious eyes.
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You are a glass half full person Lewis!!
Val won't change because he can't. This is all he has.
You are a glass half full person Lewis!!
Val won't change because he can't. This is all he has.
I think it's down to a third mate after tonight!
I think the problems go far deeper than Val and I'm just not confident we'd see any improvement. We need fundamental changes through the club or it will just be the same old cycle.
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To repeat from history....GO, you have sat too long.
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I think it's down to a third mate after tonight!
I think the problems go far deeper than Val and I'm just not confident we'd see any improvement. We need fundamental changes through the club or it will just be the same old cycle.
Problems goes deeper than Val? Yes in full agreement but that doesn't mean Val can't be improved on.
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Jesus and his Dad would struggle with this forward line
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Problems goes deeper than Val? Yes in full agreement but that doesn't mean Val can't be improved on.
Yes.
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Look what Steve Cooper has done with that Forest squad. We can only look on with envious eyes.
What they were worse than us and no more attacking than under Hughton .
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Jesus and his Dad would struggle with this forward line
They'd get five loaves and two fishes playing better than this shower. Sorry, I've had too much water turned into wine.
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Pundits nailing it. We’re not creating genuine chances and it’s down to style of play.
Thats my issue , you can chuck stats at me on here all you like but genuine clear chances are few and far between.
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Jesus and his Dad would struggle with this forward line
They might not insist on swinging in crosses to 4 forwards who can't head the ball between them .Again and again.
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Look what Steve Cooper has done with that Forest squad. We can only look on with envious eyes.
I have been and didn’t see what he’s done with that Forest squad. Please explain.
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What they were worse than us and no more attacking than under Hughton .
Unbeaten in 12 or whatever. Doing better than Val with worse players.
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They might not insist on swinging in crosses to 4 forwards who can't head the ball between them .Again and again.
It’s the only chance we’ve got of scoring with this forward line they couldn’t create diddly squat by playing football , possible exception of Diangana . When a chance does come the standard of finishing is woeful , think Grant early second half !
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I have been and didn’t see what he’s done with that Forest squad. Please explain.
He's turned them from relegation certs into a team that could possibly finish above us. Steven Reid got them their first win though I believe. He's working with worse tools and getting better results in simple terms.
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They might not insist on swinging in crosses to 4 forwards who can't head the ball between them .Again and again.
We cross the ball from one side of the pitch and the other wide forward doesn't get into the box. Our CM's don't get into the box which is probably as a result of fear of leaving a gaping hole in the middle as we only have two in there. The central striker is usually somewhere near the edge of the box.
It must be 7 or 8 times now this season where we've delivered terrific crosses across the six yard box and no one ever gets on the end of them. No one has the instinct to and they don't read the play.
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Unbeaten in 12 or whatever. Doing better than Val with worse players.
Don’t think they are worse ,I’d take Grabban and Johnson over our forwards all day ,
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Don’t think they are worse ,I’d take Grabban and Johnson over our forwards all day ,
Yes I agree on the forwards that's a given but everywhere else not for me.
They were awful till Cooper took over and on a roll. That's the effect he's had on them. What would you suggest has turned their fortunes around from being absolutely garbage to a solid top half team?
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Worst manager I’ve seen, how he’s got this job I’ll never know, nothing changes, won’t even try little things like Diangana on the left. He’s an absolute clown and we need to get rid now.
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Remember at the start of the season everyone said at least with Valball it will be exciting, unpredictable and take your breath away?
Well it's entirely predictable, the opposition managers won't have an easier time in pre match prep, they know what's coming but worse than that they know he can't do anything else regardless of how the games going.
It's certainly not exciting, they can't pass to one another and as for taking my breath away I should be so lucky not to have to witness this garbage at my club that I am going to have to support till my dying day due to being born on the concrete jungle.
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Yes I agree on the forwards that's a given but everywhere else not for me.
They were awful till Cooper took over and on a roll. That's the effect he's had on them. What would you suggest has turned their fortunes around from being absolutely garbage to a solid top half team?
Players attitudes it has been pretty well documented the players didn’t like Hughton for whatever reason . Worrall has been touted as a good centre half for a while . The number 11 played for a promotion winning team last season , Spence is highly regarded , whatever we think of Bong he’s played Premier league football, personally I’ve always thought Lolley was decent and he only makes the bench so the basis is there with us midfield and attacking wise we desperately need replacements
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Just hasn't worked out has it
Going back to page 1 of this thread I think we were all pretty excited and looking forward to something different
Sad its ended the way it has but looks like it's the end of the road
Be surprised if Val is still in charge by the time we play his old club on 17.12
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I thought it was better than Blackpool, we were better than Forest on attempts and expected goals, we should have won narrowly. Forest are a more accomplished team than Blackpool. We also had 10 men for last 20 mins.
However, the moment Ismael slots Livermore back into the team, will be when I want him gone. We are clearly a better with Molumby in not Livermore. Livermore is a centre back now. So don't do it Val.
The forwards clearly have a crisis of confidence currently. Anyone who has played sport will have experienced it themselves.
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We cross the ball from one side of the pitch and the other wide forward doesn't get into the box. Our CM's don't get into the box which is probably as a result of fear of leaving a gaping hole in the middle as we only have two in there. The central striker is usually somewhere near the edge of the box.
It must be 7 or 8 times now this season where we've delivered terrific crosses across the six yard box and no one ever gets on the end of them. No one has the instinct to and they don't read the play.
Its so , so predictable . How many keepers have had to work hard against us this season ?
Vals pretty much a one trick pony other than set pieces , the forwards are lacking quality but no less than these Bobby Gould tactics . I don't like the booing but that and empty seats tell their own story .
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Players attitudes it has been pretty well documented the players didn’t like Hughton for whatever reason . Worrall has been touted as a good centre half for a while . The number 11 played for a promotion winning team last season , Spence is highly regarded , whatever we think of Bong he’s played Premier league football, personally I’ve always thought Lolley was decent and he only makes the bench so the basis is there with us midfield and attacking wise we desperately need replacements
Do you think there's an element that these players do not want to or perhaps cannot play his style though?
I do, which one im not sure. All I know Val needs about 20-30m worth of players probably and that's not going to be forthcoming so VI and the club are just banging heads against brick walls.
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We cross the ball from one side of the pitch and the other wide forward doesn't get into the box. Our CM's don't get into the box which is probably as a result of fear of leaving a gaping hole in the middle as we only have two in there. The central striker is usually somewhere near the edge of the box.
It must be 7 or 8 times now this season where we've delivered terrific crosses across the six yard box and no one ever gets on the end of them. No one has the instinct to and they don't read the play.
They are only terrific crosses if they are aimed at someone or an incoming runner. Its about players being on the same wavelength. Crosses are a waste if they're just hit blind.
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I thought it was better than Blackpool, we were better than Forest on attempts and expected goals, we should have won narrowly. Forest are a more accomplished team than Blackpool. We also had 10 men for last 20 mins.
However, the moment Ismael slots Livermore back into the team, will be when I want him gone. We are clearly a better with Molumby in not Livermore. Livermore is a centre back now. So don't do it Val.
The forwards clearly have a crisis of confidence currently. Anyone who has played sport will have experienced it themselves.
Sorry, but I don’t agree with you at all.
At Blackpool we created chances but couldn’t put them away. Tonight was absolutely horrible, depressing football. Their keeper didn’t make a single save.
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12 points from 10 games is the measure of VI. Too many people blaming players etc when the issue is VI. All the nonsense about val ball and how exciting it was, what a load of. We are being out coached each game by mediocre teams and any improvement one game is quickly lost by the next. The substitution at60 mins is just predictable. The introduction of Hugil is depressing because you know how his game will go. I think we need a change
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They are only terrific crosses if they are aimed at someone or an incoming runner. Its about players being on the same wavelength. Crosses are a waste if they're just hit blind.
Crosses are hit into areas, good strikers anticipate crosses. If you listen to Alan Shearer he will always tell you that. Good goalscorers gamble and keep making those runs as Bomber Brown mentioned on WM tonight as well.
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Sorry, but I don’t agree with you at all.
At Blackpool we created chances but couldn’t put them away. Tonight was absolutely horrible, depressing football. Their keeper didn’t make a single save.
16 shots to 9 in our favour, only had same numbers for 70 mins. You have to look at the opposition, Forest were much better than Blackpool.
I think with this exact team, we'll eventually turn a corner. We've still had 58 attempts over 3 matches. Luck will turn eventually and some of those will go in. We need.to wheel and deal in January.
Phillips, Livermore, Snodgrass and Hugill for me are the 4 that haven't done enough and will be commanding massive wages for this division, we need to get rid.
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16 shots to 9 in our favour, only had same numbers for 70 mins. You have to look at the opposition, Forest were much better than Blackpool.
I think with this exact team, we'll eventually turn a corner. We've still had 58 attempts over 3 matches. Luck will turn eventually and some of those will go in. We need.to wheel and deal in January.
Phillips, Livermore, Snodgrass and Hugill for me are the 4 that haven't done enough and will be commanding massive wages for this division, we need to get rid.
We extended Phillips contract a few months ago.
I know, unbelievable!
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It’s the only chance we’ve got of scoring with this forward line they couldn’t create diddly squat by playing football , possible exception of Diangana . When a chance does come the standard of finishing is woeful , think Grant early second half !
If its the only chance its because VI is so stubborn with his system . 3 in the middle would help us but no chance of that .
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I thought we had a set piece coach, if so he needs sacking tonight along with whoever is coaching the forwards. Only one earning his wage currently is the keeping coach
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Crosses are hit into areas, good strikers anticipate crosses. If you listen to Alan Shearer he will always tell you that. Good goalscorers gamble and keep making those runs as Bomber Brown mentioned on WM tonight as well.
Its a two way thing. Yes, good strikers anticipate, gamble if you like, but the crosser also bears responsibility. He has to be aware where his teamates are. If they are nowhere near the ball its a wasted cross. Sometimes a crosser should be trying to cut the ball back. To be fair, Townsend did that a couple of times v Blackpool, but Mowatt blasted one into Row Z.
Generally, far too many crosses are poor. Another example tonight. Grant centred behind Furlong, who had to swivel backwards before sending his shot into Row Z.
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The lack of tactical variation is baffling. 343 in every single minute of every single game… regardless of flow of game, opposition tactics, score line, players at disposal on bench. Like for like substitutions after 60 and 75 mins every single week.
Being principled is one thing. Steadfastly refusing to have a plan B despite 10-12 weeks of relative failure is quite another.
Zero creativity through the middle. Can’t adapt to the demands/opportunities a game presents. Football by numbers in the hope tactical consistency will override lack of in-game management.
If a team is leaving gaps for a no.10 to exploit? No changes to system. If an opposition full back is consistently out of position? No ability to make changes to exploit. If endless crosses aren’t yielding anything as we have no suitable strikers to play that way? LUMP IT IN THE EFFIN BOX LADS!
Don’t want him to fail but he is failing. if plan B is to stick to plan A then you’re getting sacked fella.
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I thought it was better than Blackpool, we were better than Forest on attempts and expected goals, we should have won narrowly. Forest are a more accomplished team than Blackpool. We also had 10 men for last 20 mins.
However, the moment Ismael slots Livermore back into the team, will be when I want him gone. We are clearly a better with Molumby in not Livermore. Livermore is a centre back now. So don't do it Val.
The forwards clearly have a crisis of confidence currently. Anyone who has played sport will have experienced it themselves.
Never far from your thoughts is he? Even after watching that garbage you still have to pursue the guy who didn't play. Clearly better with Molumby ? really?
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In life you get what you pay for. We can’t be giving Ismael much😩
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Never far from your thoughts is he? Even after watching that garbage you still have to pursue the guy who didn't play. Clearly better with Molumby ? really?
Of course we have been worse with Livermore recently. He has 1 assist and 0 goals all season in a team going for promotion. Molumby is the future, will get better. Livermore is yesterday's man, old slow and little skill.
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Realistically then, despite the stupidly long contract, a defeat to Coventry and it’s surely pack your bag time?
I get the fact our team isn’t great, but just concentrate on the manager, one who hasn’t changed a system in a game once all season, it’s pathetic, stubborn and laughable. I can’t even remembering him switching any players around on the pitch whilst keepi BG the formation, it’s Sunday league stuff.
The owners are terrible, the players a poor version of what we’ve had before, but ultimately the manager is the poorest of the lot in my opinion, his ‘philosophy’ just wouldn’t happen in any other club, in any other job even. It’s just, this doesn’t work, but I’ll continue anyway as it may come right in 3 years time in League 1. Absolute garbage and cannot understand how he’s still her. Pundits can all see it, players it looks like can see it too.
There were plenty of options in the Summer, there’s a handful now, how we’ve got this guy is as embarrassing as having Hugill as our only striker.
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This was an important week for us with three very winnable games. Seven points would have been acceptable, but we got 2 - that's relegation form. The addition of one striker is not going to change this, that is one hell of a mess on the pitch and it is apparent that the players are not buying into the system.
There was a caller on WM last night who summed it up for me. She said 'three years ago I was watching Dwight Gayle and Harvey Barnes, two years ago I was watching Matteus Pereira, and now I am watching Jordan Hugill'. Says it all for me.
Surely the clowns on the board can see that we are going to miss any chance of promotion by a country mile at this rate?
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Of course we have been worse with Livermore recently. He has 1 assist and 0 goals all season in a team going for promotion. Molumby is the future, will get better. Livermore is yesterday's man, old slow and little skill.
Cannot say I have seen the difference to be honest, Jake has not been in our last two performances and we were rubbish in both. I am not seeing anything in Molumby that clearly makes him better at this time.
We all get that you don't like Jake, but to go on about him when we turn out two poor displays like that [which fielded virtually everyone's first choice midfield duo] is pointless.
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Of course we have been worse with Livermore recently. He has 1 assist and 0 goals all season in a team going for promotion. Molumby is the future, will get better. Livermore is yesterday's man, old slow and little skill.
Not sure if you were at the game last night? Absolutely no way did Molumby play well. You wanted Jakes contract cancelled when he was harshly sent off last week. Shall we do same with Molumby? Just asking…..
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Not sure if you were at the game last night? Absolutely no way did Molumby play well. You wanted Jakes contract cancelled when he was harshly sent off last week. Shall we do same with Molumby? Just asking…..
Did Molumby touch the ball?
At least Livermore never hides.
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Did Molumby touch the ball?
At least Livermore never hides.
Not many times, and did nothing positive when he did touch the ball.
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Livermore cannot play 90 mins, we lose games late on with him playing like Stoke and Swansea away. Molumby is the future, Livermore is the past.
We carve out more shots on goal with Molumby. Posted 41 shots in the last 2 games and you want Livermore, so we can be even more defensive and have less shots?
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Realistically then, despite the stupidly long contract, a defeat to Coventry and it’s surely pack your bag time?
I get the fact our team isn’t great, but just concentrate on the manager, one who hasn’t changed a system in a game once all season, it’s pathetic, stubborn and laughable. I can’t even remembering him switching any players around on the pitch whilst keepi BG the formation, it’s Sunday league stuff.
The owners are terrible, the players a poor version of what we’ve had before, but ultimately the manager is the poorest of the lot in my opinion, his ‘philosophy’ just wouldn’t happen in any other club, in any other job even. It’s just, this doesn’t work, but I’ll continue anyway as it may come right in 3 years time in League 1. Absolute garbage and cannot understand how he’s still her. Pundits can all see it, players it looks like can see it too.
There were plenty of options in the Summer, there’s a handful now, how we’ve got this guy is as embarrassing as having Hugill as our only striker.
It will make no difference if they sack the manager, which I think they won't because of the length of his contract, the players are just rubbish. They are the ones we need to get rid of !!!
There is people on here criticising the manager because of his tactics but its those tactics that has produced 60 shots at goal over the past 3 games. Of those 60 shots only about 12 were on target and none were goals. How on earth can you blame the manager for the poor shooting of our forward players !
If you look at the last three matches if we had converted just 10% of the shots we had we would have scored 6 goals. 2 in each match, 9 points and this board would have changed its tone !!
Can you blame the manager for Hugill ballooning the ball over the bar in the last minute when he should have at least got it on target. Can you blame him for Molumby jumping into a tackle when he was already on a yellow card !!!
It was like last season when Big Sam came in, we were still getting battered until he got his loan players in during January.
As far as the manager options are , Ismael was our 4th choice. Do you think managers will be queueing up to take the job !!! Look at the managers we have had over the last few seasons. We have probably had more managers than any other club which will put a lot of managers off coming here.
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You pick any stat you like to say if this happened etc. the facts are he’s in charge of a team playing horrible football and early results have tailed off. He’s tactically useless (only has one) and for me it’s apparent the players have lost faith, they are being asked to do stuff that they can’t do and it’s a complete shambles. This is the worst manager we could have hired, no question.
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Couple of general points having skim read the thread. If we didn't create any clear cut chances last night I must have imagined those ballooned attempts from Grant, Hurlong and Hugill. How Dandy Darnell gets into that side ahead of TGH after his debacle of a performance at Blackpool is beyond my level of comprehension.
We can mention anticipation as much as we like, but crosses played into a box when none of our players are there serve little purpose beyond hoping for own goals or corners via deflections or to highlight a lack of central forward options. Neither are sensible tactics so this is where in game intelligence comes into play.
And what is this tactical ploy where Johnstone hangs onto the ball with a view to passing to Clarke once he has a man on him? Who cloned Diangana with a clueless child and who's telling Robinson to take extra touches? I honestly don't have a clue beyond confused thinking and poor decision making. This can't all be down to the manager. We've got too many players hiding in plain sight.
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You pick any stat you like to say if this happened etc. the facts are he’s in charge of a team playing horrible football and early results have tailed off. He’s tactically useless (only has one) and for me it’s apparent the players have lost faith, they are being asked to do stuff that they can’t do and it’s a complete shambles. This is the worst manager we could have hired, no question.
Thats true the players are being asked to do what they are not capable of doing .............. PLAYING FOOTBALL !!
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We could do a lot better than this guy. Heck I would be begging the last manager to come back on a 6 month deal. It really is that bad.
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Couple of general points having skim read the thread. If we didn't create any clear cut chances last night I must have imagined those ballooned attempts from Grant, Hurlong and Hugill. How Dandy Darnell gets into that side ahead of TGH after his debacle of a performance at Blackpool is beyond my level of comprehension.
We can mention anticipation as much as we like, but crosses played into a box when none of our players are there serve little purpose beyond hoping for own goals or corners via deflections or to highlight a lack of central forward options. Neither are sensible tactics so this is where in game intelligence comes into play.
And what is this tactical ploy where Johnstone hangs onto the ball with a view to passing to Clarke once he has a man on him? Who cloned Diangana with a clueless child and who's telling Robinson to take extra touches? I honestly don't have a clue beyond confused thinking and poor decision making. This can't all be down to the manager. We've got too many players hiding in plain sight.
I agree with this, BUT Forrest also had their fair share of chances too (Grabban at the very end) plus one striker missed a sitter in the air second half and they had a decent shot Johnstone tipped over. In the first half they had a good counter that their winger messed up badly too, with another chance from a sloppy pass by Bartley.
My point is, a draw was fair in the end, as it was against Blackpool. We're not doing enough to beat the opposition and we still don't make enough chances. If we'd have had triple their chances then fair enough but it wasn't the case. Ultimately we just don't do enough in attack and that's why we are where we are.
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We could do a lot better than this guy. Heck I would be begging the last manager to come back on a 6 month deal. It really is that bad.
Yes it is. THAT bad.
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We desperately need a proper goal scorer. This team transforms with one. Forest aren’t a bad side at this level, and yet until the sending off we could barely string a pass together and still controlled the game.
With that said, Until Jan VI needs to work with what he’s got and find some tactics going forwards that suit what we have and create better chances. He’s looking like a poor manager at present who had got away with having better players but now it’s catching up with him.
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Until Jan VI needs to work with what he’s got ...
While I agree with what you are saying I don't believe VI is going to get anything worth having in January. Not with short-arms-deep-pockets running the $#1T-show.
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He needs to be replaced in my opinion, but please recruit a new manager before pressing the button. No Morrison / Brunt combo thank you.
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Heck I would be begging the last manager to come back on a 6 month deal. It really is that bad.
I love how nothing last season was Allardyce's fault (4 wins in 26) and yet everything this season is Ismael's fault (4 defeats in 20).
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I agree with this, BUT Forrest also had their fair share of chances too (Grabban at the very end) plus one striker missed a sitter in the air second half and they had a decent shot Johnstone tipped over. In the first half they had a good counter that their winger messed up badly too, with another chance from a sloppy pass by Bartley.
My point is, a draw was fair in the end, as it was against Blackpool. We're not doing enough to beat the opposition and we still don't make enough chances. If we'd have had triple their chances then fair enough but it wasn't the case. Ultimately we just don't do enough in attack and that's why we are where we are.
Cheers for the reply, your first paragraph may inadvertently have highlighted my point. For me Grabban walks into our team as the starting central forward. He's better equipped for that role than Phillips and a better fit for our system than Hugill.
And yet he fails to convert a late chance against an exhausted ten man side. As for Johnstone's save it was a good reaction to a deflection off Clarke as opposed to a response to a wonderfully crafted shot.
In an ideal world and with the apparent wage budget at our disposal Grabban shouldn't even be getting on for us from the bench though. I disagree that we didn't create enough to win last night because we clearly did.
The game itself was played in poor conditions. It still wouldn't have been remotely easy on the eye regardless but the chances to win were there for the taking. The fact they weren't taken was down to poor technique rather than at times eye bleedingly stubborn tactics.
The issue isn't just aesthetic it goes higher. I don't enjoy this mish mash of styles. I don't enjoy watching players taking the wrong options during games and I enjoy the fact that some of them are on our books far less. The real problems at Albion are higher up the food chain than Valerian Ismael. And as for the style of football itself he didn't recruit himself.
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Cheers for the reply, your first paragraph may inadvertently have highlighted my point. For me Grabban walks into our team as the starting central forward. He's better equipped for that role than Phillips and a better fit for our system than Hugill.
And yet he fails to convert a late chance against an exhausted ten man side. As for Johnstone's save it was a good reaction to a deflection off Clarke as opposed to a response to a wonderfully crafted shot.
In an ideal world and with the apparent wage budget at our disposal Grabban shouldn't even be getting on for us from the bench though. I disagree that we didn't create enough to win last night because we clearly did.
The game itself was played in poor conditions. It still wouldn't have been remotely easy on the eye regardless but the chances to win were there for the taking. The fact they weren't taken was down to poor technique rather than at times eye bleedingly stubborn tactics.
The issue isn't just aesthetic it goes higher. I don't enjoy this mish mash of styles. I don't enjoy watching players taking the wrong options during games and I enjoy the fact that some of them are on our books far less. The real problems at Albion are higher up the food chain than Valerian Ismael. And as for the style of football itself he didn't recruit himself.
Thanks for that Dan. Entirely my thoughts put to paper far better then I could - particularly the very last sentence !
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Agree with all of this Dan. I thought we bossed the game from start to sending off and honestly can’t remember Johnstone having anything serious to do until we went down to 10men. 11 v 11 we managed to create 3 or 4 good chances that we were wasted Grant and Furlongs being the most obvious .
The biggest problems at the club are way over VI’s head . We are a rudderless ship gliding towards the rocks with nobody manning the bridge or looking in the least bit likely to be able to. Xmas 4 game period and then the transfer window looming and not a scoob doo who is running the club or what the approach and plan is.
Unfortunately our fan base seems to think we should be in the automatic promotion race with a vastly inferior squad to last time and a squad which has been decimated in numbers ,quality and depth.
Do I think VI is a good / great coach no do I think the squad would do better under somebody else , not really , do I see the point in sacking him only if he has totally lost the dressing room, but based strictly on results no , am I happy with performances again no but I place the blame more on the players and the above mentioned squad limitations than I do on VI . Also I see no glaringly obvious realistic replacement waiting in the wings
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I love how nothing last season was Allardyce's fault (4 wins in 26) and yet everything this season is Ismael's fault (4 defeats in 20).
Just this - well said sir!
Plus what it cost in financial terms to bring the Allardyce effect here is one of the reasons we have nothing to spend now. But even he realised we were so short of talent up front and in the middle of the park that even the loan of a couple of standard ability professionals to add to the brilliance of MP was essential to getting even those four wins.
VI has no MP and nothing like Yokuslu or Diagne so he has to get the whole lot of them playing with more intensity than the opposition to try to make up for the general lack of talent. It is not pretty but basically it's all we have, until suitable additions can be made to help enhance what little talent we do have in the team. Oh and it will have to have no costs attached as well won't it? Can't see it happening myself, but doubt if changing the manager is the answer.
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I’ve seen enough to know that this man is not going to change anything and is going to persevere with this mind numbing, depressing boring style of football. You have to work with what you have and if you cannot shoe horn them into what you want then you need to change.
Val out.
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Feel free to correct me, last night was the first time I have managed to watch a whole game on a decent picture for a while.
So we have 4 players instructed to stay out wide, 2 forwards and 2 full backs, none of whom expect Townsend seem able to hold onto the ball for more than about 3 seconds. This leaves us overrun in midfield when we lose the ball. Also almost all of our forwards are better receiving the ball deep and running with it - certainly Grant, Robinson, Phillips and Diangana (when he doesn't trip over his own feet these days), but they are told to stay as far forward as possible and wait for the ball to be launched at their station.
Hugill might be good at something, I'm not sure, maybe tiling or mending bicycle tyres.
It's stupid to just not change something during matches, something, anything, it was basically embarrassing last night.
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I’ve seen enough to know that this man is not going to change anything and is going to persevere with this mind numbing, depressing boring style of football. You have to work with what you have and if you cannot shoe horn them into what you want then you need to change.
Val out.
Problem is Liam this squad is so poor nobody else is likely to do any better . Change for changes sake is not a good option. Just who realistically do you think is going to take the job with this owner . If the sacking did come to pass I know who I would like to see given the job but i would like him to get more than 20 games !
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I’ve seen enough to know that this man is not going to change anything and is going to persevere with this mind numbing, depressing boring style of football. You have to work with what you have and if you cannot shoe horn them into what you want then you need to change.
Terrible finishing aside, how many attempts at goal do we need to have before it becomes entertaining? Only Fulham are averaging more attempts on goal than we are this season in the Championship.
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The issue isn't just aesthetic it goes higher. I don't enjoy this mish mash of styles. I don't enjoy watching players taking the wrong options during games and I enjoy the fact that some of them are on our books far less. The real problems at Albion are higher up the food chain than Valerian Ismael. And as for the style of football itself he didn't recruit himself.
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The biggest problems at the club are way over VI’s head . We are a rudderless ship gliding towards the rocks with nobody manning the bridge or looking in the least bit likely to be able to. Xmas 4 game period and then the transfer window looming and not a scoob doo who is running the club or what the approach and plan is.
Unfortunately our fan base seems to think we should be in the automatic promotion race with a vastly inferior squad to last time and a squad which has been decimated in numbers ,quality and depth.
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A fish rots from the head and this club has been slowly rotting for some time. Managers with negative and unattractive tactics trying to make silk purses out of ageing sows ears. It's a cliche' but I fear that it's going to have to get worse before it gets better. At some point Mr Guochuan and his mates are going to realise that they are going to recover less and less of their rash investment the longer they leave it. Some on this site mentioned 5 years and that may be right.
In view of that perhaps we should lower our sights on promotion and this would some experimentation with academy players.
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For what it's worth, I don't think we are losing the middle of the park.
By playing a high line, we're compacting the play into 3/4 of the playing area, & most of that is in our opponents half.
They pull men back to defend that area, so you end up up with congestion, with very limited routes to goal.
IMO we need to use more of the pitch, & pull the opponents players out of position, focus more on what we do off the ball.
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A lot of interesting and valid suggestions on here. I hereby recommend half of the westbrom.com board for the position of head coach/manager blah blah as you all have more strategic depth than VI.
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For what it's worth, I don't think we are losing the middle of the park.
By playing a high line, we're compacting the play into 3/4 of the playing area, & most of that is in our opponents half.
They pull men back to defend that area, so you end up up with congestion, with very limited routes to goal.
IMO we need to use more of the pitch, & pull the opponents players out of position, focus more on what we do off the ball.
You have hit the proverbial nail on the head Baggiejohn. There is as you say the need to expand the playing area, and pull opponents away from their comfort zones, to create the space for a goal chance. What we do off the ball is essential to this, but to do it properly you need intelligent running and vision from a number of players. Few if any of our squad have the natural abilities to do this and though it can to a certain extent be coached it will then still be slow and lack fluidity for a long time.
Another option is to move the ball very quickly, preferably one, but no more than two touches This also needs vision and awareness, as well as the ball skills to control the ball quickly under pressure and either execute or take the pass. Again skill sets this squad are not over endowed with.
Ideally we would eventually be able to have a mix of both, and also be able to add it it to the occasional high tempo high press game we are trying to implement at present. It has to start somewhere and we may well be on the first step, or we might need to go back a bit first. But it will not happen without investment in better players, hopefully also with additions from our young teams. It will probably only be one at a time and we must be patient. We can succeed but it will take time, and not every player we try, loan or buy will be any good, for every huge success there will be a Hugill; or a Zohore. Recruitment is also a prime area requiring improvement.
I see none of this happening under the present ownership, but how do we get them out without further damage to the club, or how do we convince them that greater investment is a better option for getting a return than their present stance?
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Terrible finishing aside, how many attempts at goal do we need to have before it becomes entertaining? Only Fulham are averaging more attempts on goal than we are this season in the Championship.
It’s easy to throw around statistics.
If I have a shot from 25 yards which hits row ZZ of the Birmingham Road End then that counts as an attempt.
These attempts that everyone continues to throw around as justification of the rubbish we’re watching also includes blocked shots.
There is nothing to our play - there is no pattern of play - there is limited movement - we do not create overlaps or overloads - we do not play in between the lines of the opposition defence/midfield.
Our sole tactic seems to be crosses from Townsend and Furlong to a front three who are ill equipped to play that way. Or we are reliant on the opposition making a pigs ear of their defending.
If you think that is entertaining and you’re happy to pay and watch it then be my guest.
I personally think it’s rubbish.
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For what it's worth, I don't think we are losing the middle of the park.
By playing a high line, we're compacting the play into 3/4 of the playing area, & most of that is in our opponents half.
They pull men back to defend that area, so you end up up with congestion, with very limited routes to goal.
IMO we need to use more of the pitch, & pull the opponents players out of position, focus more on what we do off the ball.
We aren’t losing the middle generally, I agree. Swansea, Fulham and a couple of other games we have, but generally speaking we aren’t.
We are causing our our problems at the back in open play (I saw someone tweet we’ve only conceded once this season from a set piece which is incredible in the championship) but above all else we’ve been terrible in attack.
We’ve more problems with the ball than without it, which is a bizarre thing to say about a football team.
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These attempts that everyone continues to throw around as justification of the rubbish we’re watching also includes blocked shots.
Are you certain that blocked shots are included? If they are, it does seem that all blocked shots are regarded as being off target.
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Are you certain that blocked shots are included? If they are, it does seem that all blocked shots are regarded as being off target.
Yes. They’re included within the overall shots.
A breakdown of last night was 16 shots with three on target. There was 9 off target and 4 blocked shots.
People keep referencing these 60 attempts we’ve had and how it must be down to our poor finishing and whilst that may be true, across the last 3 games 25 of these 60 attempts have been blocked! Entirely misleading.
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Are you certain that blocked shots are included? If they are, it does seem that all blocked shots are regarded as being off target.
Yes, any attempt is counted.
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It’s easy to throw around statistics.
If I have a shot from 25 yards which hits row ZZ of the Birmingham Road End then that counts as an attempt.
These attempts that everyone continues to throw around as justification of the rubbish we’re watching also includes blocked shots.
There is nothing to our play - there is no pattern of play - there is limited movement - we do not create overlaps or overloads - we do not play in between the lines of the opposition defence/midfield.
Our sole tactic seems to be crosses from Townsend and Furlong to a front three who are ill equipped to play that way. Or we are reliant on the opposition making a pigs ear of their defending.
If you think that is entertaining and you’re happy to pay and watch it then be my guest.
I personally think it’s rubbish.
Pretty much my view sadly , he's a bad fit and most of it comes from being stubborn .
The thought of being given some of his players and a long term future of these tactics / style is not appealing at all .
Beyond basic .
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It’s easy to throw around statistics.
If I have a shot from 25 yards which hits row ZZ of the Birmingham Road End then that counts as an attempt.
These attempts that everyone continues to throw around as justification of the rubbish we’re watching also includes blocked shots.
There is nothing to our play - there is no pattern of play - there is limited movement - we do not create overlaps or overloads - we do not play in between the lines of the opposition defence/midfield.
Our sole tactic seems to be crosses from Townsend and Furlong to a front three who are ill equipped to play that way. Or we are reliant on the opposition making a pigs ear of their defending.
If you think that is entertaining and you’re happy to pay and watch it then be my guest.
I personally think it’s rubbish.
This XG statistic seems to have become the new sexy thing in football .. I dont pay any attention to it , it doesnt tell me anything about quality of shots etc . Maybe the XG ones amongst the world of football can explain to me how many actual outstanding saves the goalkeepers of Huddersfield , Blackpool , and Forest have made . It does not tell me how short of confidence our forwards are yet my own eyes tell me Robinson and Diangana are regressing at an alarming rate. That has nothing to do with XG its down to what they are being asked to do and the coaching to go with it.
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It does not tell me how short of confidence our forwards are yet my own eyes tell me Robinson and Diangana are regressing at an alarming rate. That has nothing to do with XG its down to what they are being asked to do and the coaching to go with it.
Robinson has been disappointing of late, but he wasn't being selected by us when he was doing so well in the internationa;s, which I'm sure will have rankled him. Diangana hasn't really done much since our last promotion season has he, so his regression pre-dates the arrival of VI?
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At the end of the day VI picks the starting XI. It's his call. He chooses the tactics and formations. He can change any of this whenever he likes - but he doesn't. He continues with a system that clearly isn't working. It's no good quoting me that we have had 5000 shots in the last 4 games etc etc. If virtually all of them are off target. I'd rather have 7 'good' chances than loads of half chances, which we are creating. Our midfield offers nothing with regards creativity, and gets overrun, but yet VI does nothing to changes things. Just because it worked at another club doesn't mean it will work here. It's nice to see VI give some of the youngsters a go - Oh wait a minute he doesn't does he? Gardner-Hickman plays when Furlong is injured or suspended. If we have players doing well in the U23's can't we try them? What is there to lose, we can't win at the moment with the Senior players. He is failing at the minute so try something different? Good managers can react when things aren't going well, but this guy just plows out the same old dross every week, with the same old excuses. I could forgive him if i could see he was trying different formations etc. Why is it supporters always seem to be able to see when things aren't working but managers can't?
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We are a professional football clubs and basically the playing members are employed to save goal,stop goals,make goals or score goals.
If any player is picked to perform the particular job he is employed for and doesn't do it he should be replaced by someone with the same skill for which he is employed.
In view of this if a person selected to score over a period of time doesn,t why is he not replaced with a person with the same skill even if he is a young player who perhaps has not even made his debut.
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This XG statistic seems to have become the new sexy thing in football .. I dont pay any attention to it , it doesnt tell me anything about quality of shots etc . Maybe the XG ones amongst the world of football can explain to me how many actual outstanding saves the goalkeepers of Huddersfield , Blackpool , and Forest have made . It does not tell me how short of confidence our forwards are yet my own eyes tell me Robinson and Diangana are regressing at an alarming rate. That has nothing to do with XG its down to what they are being asked to do and the coaching to go with it.
Agree completely about the XG statistics, like most football stats they are based on far too small an information base, and are unreliable in the lack of detail.
On the other issue Perhaps Robinson and Diangana are being asked to do whatever it is that is causing them to regress because they are the only ones in the squad that can do that job, or simply do it best. As mentioned many times the squad is actually not particularly high on football intelligence nor adaptability. It is also a very thin squad with few first choice options.
This is where it gets complicated. Diangana is far better on the left as a winger, but is on the right sharing the role with Phillips, because Grant is poor on that side and Robinson is central. Robbo has some instinct for goals and attacking passes but is not a central striker. Unfortunately there is no one in the first team squad who is an improvement in that position which again he also shares with Phillips. Phillips is better wide right than central. Robinson is also a far better right sided option than where he is presently playing. It is all part of the effort to play Grant in his best place because he has scored and looked most dangerous there. If we were able to get hold of a decent cf and a midfielder who could not just run around but actually create a bit and help Mowatt out, then we would have options all through the attacking third. Diangana/Grant on the left, Robbinson/Phillips on the right, playing off a cf who can win a header, hold up, lay off or score a few. All in front of two mids who can read the game, get the odd tackle in, support the forwards, see and hit a pass, create a chance and score a couple themselves. Just two half decent players might make a big difference, but they have to be the right players. Hopefully in the near future a couple of u23 lads could step up and help out at cf particularly, or any of the other options for parts of a game as well.
My belief is that it is doable. VI has the January transfer window to prove if he can get us competitive with a more aesthetically pleasing improved balance of high press and better passing, but will need to be backed fully. Whether or not the board and the 'support' are prepared to do it is the question, especially if we need a couple of seasons in the Championship to prepare properly for a premiership excursion with half a chance of staying up.
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Terrible finishing aside, how many attempts at goal do we need to have before it becomes entertaining? Only Fulham are averaging more attempts on goal than we are this season in the Championship.
Exactly. I didn't see much wrong with the performance last night, save for our inability to score. Same at Blackpool in the week. We lack an out and out goalscorer. Last time at this level we had Pereira to make up for that; but without his magic we are no more than a play-off squad; which is why we are third in the league.
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Only Blackburn of top 14 have won today.Fulham were lucky to draw at Preston and QPR haven't played.
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Would like to know which people thought was the better performance , last night or previous home game v Boro’
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Would like to know which people thought was the better performance , last night or previous home game v Boro’
Last night definitely; against better opposition as well. Restricted them to next to nothing, another consecutive clean sheet and created more than enough to have won the game comfortably.
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On the Championship form table, Our form over the last 10 games has us 18th in the championship , level with derby Luton and Huddersfield. Birmingham are 12th. How is this OK? People need to stop blaming the board and previous management and start with the coach. This is just unacceptable.
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Where to start?
Is there any direction or leadership at club? No. Are the players good enough? On the whole no. Is the manager a tactical messiah? No
Not sure sacking val is worth while unless he has lost the players. I think you could bring in pretty much anybody and it wouldnt make much difference.
We have a lot of older players on too much money; snodgrass livermore for example probably on 60-70k between them at this level. We have 2 "strikers"; Zohore has done anything since he came here 2 years ago, Hugil again we might be looking at toward 60k a week for just those 2. We could finanxe half a team of younger technically better players just removing those 4 off the books. I could add Phillips as in the too old overpaid but sadly he still is one of the most versatile and technically better players we have. Which is damning really- as at some point you have to upgrade on players...
Val could go 2 up top 1 in the number 10 position. He could go midfield 3, he could go back 4. His stuborness is wearing very thin with me. However we cannot keep changing managera or we become a poisoned chalice and nobody wants the job.
Another thing we have grant, Robinson and Diangana who i am also quite sure get paid pretty well for this level and yet they all supposedly are at their best wide left forward. Who sanctioned all that?
We had a big clean out last summer and im hoping we can get shot of some more January to finance some sort of rebuild. If not we will limp along until summer and hit playoffs at best if we are lucky. As the crux of it for me is we dont have players suited to VI and we cannot bring them in. So either get somebody to work with the dross we have or back him and get on the clean out.
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When you assess Val as a tactician, you only have to look at is in game interaction, which is zero. He may as well not be there.
The formation is rigid and set in stone, as are the players roles within it, with no switching of flanks etc. The subs appear pre-defined, right down to the timing, and I can't think of a single time where he has reacted to what's happening on the pitch, unless forced by injury or a sending off. If he stayed at home with his feet up, would we know the difference, I doubt it.
This sums up his stubbornness, inflexibility and limitations for me, unfortunately these are the very traits that will get him sacked, eventually, as there is no sign that he will change.
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When you assess Val as a tactician, you only have to look at is in game interaction, which is zero. He may as well not be there.
The formation is rigid and set in stone, as are the players roles within it, with no switching of flanks etc. The subs appear pre-defined, right down to the timing, and I can't think of a single time where he has reacted to what's happening on the pitch, unless forced by injury or a sending off. If he stayed at home with his feet up, would we know the difference, I doubt it.
This sums up his stubbornness, inflexibility and limitations for me, unfortunately these are the very traits that will get him sacked, eventually, as there is no sign that he will change.
You are right. There is no point him attending the games. Me and you can stand there and go 3 4 3. 2 subs in the 60th and 1 more if we have a man sent off or inured after that.
It's not rocket science
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This XG statistic seems to have become the new sexy thing in football .. I dont pay any attention to it , it doesnt tell me anything about quality of shots etc . Maybe the XG ones amongst the world of football can explain to me how many actual outstanding saves the goalkeepers of Huddersfield , Blackpool , and Forest have made . It does not tell me how short of confidence our forwards are yet my own eyes tell me Robinson and Diangana are regressing at an alarming rate. That has nothing to do with XG its down to what they are being asked to do and the coaching to go with it.
So xG tries to add a measure of both quality and quantity of shooting chances, so rather than saying "we had 20 shots, so we deserved a goal", we can say "despite us having 20 shots, they were poor quality chances so an average team would have only scored 0.7 goals".
Now that probably will make you think something - you can't have 0.7 of a goal.
Well that's because xG is a probability - it's the probability you'd score in a game, so over 10 games with 0.7 xG, we'd expect to see 7 with a goal, and three without.
The other thing, is it's always better to create a few high quality chances than loads of poor quality. Yes, maybe that 30 harder will fly in twice a season, but you only need one or two high quality chances in a game to make a material difference (well, you do unless Hugill is presented with the chance!)
Far too often we take poor shots, particularly from the outside of the area, rather than working a better opportunity. The chance Furlong spurned was probably our best move, and resulted in a chance where we should have done better.
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Grant scored a superb goal against Brighton last season when he was stood in centre of penalty area so why don't we try him as centre forward and put Diagana on left wing where we have seen him make and score great goals?
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It basically comes down to the fact that these players are no good.
It doesn't matter what system you play these players are no good.
Think back 12 months, we were getting battered every other match by 5. Probably for that period we were the worse team in premiership history and in danger of conceding over 100 goals in a season. That team was made up with the majority of this team. It was only when big sam got his loan players in that we improved.
So a bunch of players who keep getting battered in the premiership how do you think they willdo any good in the championship. I know there is a large gulf between the 2 leagues but not that much.
We need to stick with the manager and start building for the future.
There is no way we will get a good striker during January to ease our problems. We are in a position where we will attract either a striker at the end of his career or one who is on the way up probably from league 1. All the top strikers from the Championship will move to premier league clubs at the end of the season. It happens every year. A lot of the foreign players are hit or miss. You might get a good one like we did with Odemwingie or you could end up with a donkey.
Apart from that our owner will not spend any money so the only way out is to blood the younsters, take the pain now and build a better future.
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It basically comes down to the fact that these players are no good.
It doesn't matter what system you play these players are no good.
Think back 12 months, we were getting battered every other match by 5. Probably for that period we were the worse team in premiership history and in danger of conceding over 100 goals in a season. That team was made up with the majority of this team. It was only when big sam got his loan players in that we improved.
So a bunch of players who keep getting battered in the premiership how do you think they willdo any good in the championship. I know there is a large gulf between the 2 leagues but not that much.
We need to stick with the manager and start building for the future.
There is no way we will get a good striker during January to ease our problems. We are in a position where we will attract either a striker at the end of his career or one who is on the way up probably from league 1. All the top strikers from the Championship will move to premier league clubs at the end of the season. It happens every year. A lot of the foreign players are hit or miss. You might get a good one like we did with Odemwingie or you could end up with a donkey.
Apart from that our owner will not spend any money so the only way out is to blood the younsters, take the pain now and build a better future.
Id be happy to along with a lot of this if the football wasn't so predictable and the manager could tweak his in game tactics .
We'll go down the flanks
We'll cross to 3 forwards who can't head it
We'll play 3 4 3
We'll make subs on the hour mark but the shape will stay the same
Livermore will start when available
Opposing keepers and defenders will pluck balls out the air
We'll put 4 bodies in the 6 yard box on corners.
I don't agree with it but I've never known so much booing from our fans so early in a managers reign .
Its football by numbers each game , boring in many ways for my money .
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Unbeaten in 12 or whatever. Doing better than Val with worse players.
Unbeaten in 6 (5 draws and 1 win). Lost at home to Fulham 4-0 24th October.
We are in a rut and something needs to change. As I keep saying it's not so much the managers playing style that's the problem it's the players inability to carry it out.
When they were playing the style correctly we were top of the league and winning nearly every game, once the decided it was too hard to press with intensity and also started just lumping it up from the back missing out the midfield that's when the problems started.
I'd rather we kept the manager and got rid of some of the players that can't/won't play his way.
Ismael is the 7th manager since we got rid of Pulis and the football is no better and hasn't been any better other than a brief spell under Moore and a brief spell under Bilic....maybe changing the manager won't improve anything?
Totally agree with this from baggiemart
It basically comes down to the fact that these players are no good.
It doesn't matter what system you play these players are no good.
Think back 12 months, we were getting battered every other match by 5. Probably for that period we were the worse team in premiership history and in danger of conceding over 100 goals in a season. That team was made up with the majority of this team. It was only when big sam got his loan players in that we improved.
So a bunch of players who keep getting battered in the premiership how do you think they willdo any good in the championship. I know there is a large gulf between the 2 leagues but not that much.
We need to stick with the manager and start building for the future.
There is no way we will get a good striker during January to ease our problems. We are in a position where we will attract either a striker at the end of his career or one who is on the way up probably from league 1. All the top strikers from the Championship will move to premier league clubs at the end of the season. It happens every year. A lot of the foreign players are hit or miss. You might get a good one like we did with Odemwingie or you could end up with a donkey.
Apart from that our owner will not spend any money so the only way out is to blood the youngsters, take the pain now and build a better future.
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Id be happy to along with a lot of this if the football wasn't so predictable and the manager could tweak his in game tactics .
We'll go down the flanks
We'll cross to 3 forwards who can't head it
We'll play 3 4 3
We'll make subs on the hour mark but the shape will stay the same
Livermore will start when available
Opposing keepers and defenders will pluck balls out the air
We'll put 4 bodies in the 6 yard box on corners.
I don't agree with it but I've never known so much booing from our fans so early in a managers reign .
Its football by numbers each game , boring in many ways for my money .
Probably right and I've never held our fan base in such low regard, too many entitled whingers.
I don't agree with you that the football is boring either; we miss a goalscorer up front, not much else is wrong with the current set-up.
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Probably right and I've never held our fan base in such low regard, too many entitled whingers.
I don't agree with you that the football is boring either; we miss a goalscorer up front, not much else is wrong with the current set-up.
Personal opinion , lets just say its predictable.
Too many defenders / keepers are having a easy game against us for my liking .
While Mowatt is no Pereira I think he's better than a dog chasing a bone as our CMs are in this style .
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Probably right and I've never held our fan base in such low regard, too many entitled whingers.
I don't agree with you that the football is boring either; we miss a goalscorer up front, not much else is wrong with the current set-up.
Totally agree.
Some of our fans are a joke. They moaned about the football earlier in the season but we're playing differently now and they still moan, basically because they decided they didn't like VI right from the start. Don't get me wrong everyone is entitled to criticise if it's constructive but a lot of stuff is poison. A lot of these are the same fans that were outraged about Bilic's sacking after about three wins in a calendar year. Its just crackers. We are third in the table not in the bottom six.
I haven't seen the attendance for the Forest game I couldn't find it initially and gave up looking but the number of empty seats was embarrassing. So much for supporting your club.
The football we are playing at the moment is predictable, I agree with that but is not unattractive now. Two good forwards and this team is as good as any in the division.
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Personal opinion , lets just say its predictable.
Too many defenders / keepers are having a easy game against us for my liking .
While Mowatt is no Pereira I think he's better than a dog chasing a bone as our CMs are in this style .
surely we bought Mowatt because of his performances for Barnsley and he can play the way Ismael wants to play though?
The too many players aren't playing the way Ismael wants and that's the problem. Ismaels style is about high intensity pressing, winning the ball back high up the pitch or if the opposition lump it forward our defenders win the ball and play it through midfield out to the wingbacks, not just bypass midfield and lump it forward to no one (which is what they started doing against Peterborough and most games since then).
Having 3 strikers that could actually play as a unit rather than all being about 5 yards apart on the left hand side would also help as would them breaking a sweat to get into the box when Townsend/anyone is bursting past his man looking to cross it.
I think the main reason Ismael picks Livermore and Mowatt in midfield is that they understand how he wants to play.
Baggie 82 and Atomic are right we are a goal scorer or two away from being right back in contention for automatic promotion.
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Totally agree.
Some of our fans are a joke. They moaned about the football earlier in the season but we're playing differently now and they still moan, basically because they decided they didn't like VI right from the start. Don't get me wrong everyone is entitled to criticise if it's constructive but a lot of stuff is poison. A lot of these are the same fans that were outraged about Bilic's sacking after about three wins in a calendar year. Its just crackers. We are third in the table not in the bottom six.
I haven't seen the attendance for the Forest game I couldn't find it initially and gave up looking but the number of empty seats was embarrassing. So much for supporting your club.
The football we are playing at the moment is predictable, I agree with that but is not unattractive now. Two good forwards and this team is as good as any in the division.
Excellent post. Some of our so called fans are embarrassing.
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surely we bought Mowatt because of his performances for Barnsley and he can play the way Ismael wants to play though?
The too many players aren't playing the way Ismael wants and that's the problem. Ismaels style is about high intensity pressing, winning the ball back high up the pitch or if the opposition lump it forward our defenders win the ball and play it through midfield out to the wingbacks, not just bypass midfield and lump it forward to no one (which is what they started doing against Peterborough and most games since then).
Having 3 strikers that could actually play as a unit rather than all being about 5 yards apart on the left hand side would also help as would them breaking a sweat to get into the box when Townsend/anyone is bursting past his man looking to cross it.
I think the main reason Ismael picks Livermore and Mowatt in midfield is that they understand how he wants to play.
Baggie 82 and Atomic are right we are a goal scorer or two away from being right back in contention for automatic promotion.
As posted , I think Mowatt is better than what we've seen . Your point on the players not playing how he wants , does that not show you a few things ? To my mind the 3 up top doesnt work no matter who is in it , thats plain stubborn to stick to it . Why do these players look half hearted now as opposed to early season ? ( most of them ) .
Something , somewhere isn't right .
I wouldnt defend any of this lot but at the same time Val diesnt help himself at times , its football by numbers for sure.
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As posted , I think Mowatt is better than what we've seen . Your point on the players not playing how he wants , does that not show you a few things ? To my mind the 3 up top doesnt work no matter who is in it , thats plain stubborn to stick to it . Why do these players look half hearted now as opposed to early season ? ( most of them ) .
Something , somewhere isn't right .
I wouldnt defend any of this lot but at the same time Val diesnt help himself at times , its football by numbers for sure.
the 3 up top was working fine at first. Before the Stoke game we'd scored 20 goals, since then we've scored 7.
I think the players look half hearted because we've abandoned the high intensity press and results have got worse. The decision to abandon it I doubt was Ismael's choice as it's a cornerstone of his philosophy. I would assume that it came from some of the players who since they got there way have been responsible for even poorer results and performances.
The players were saying how hard they found his training earlier in the season.
I agree Mowatt is better than we've seen in the last 10 games or so but that coincides with the lack of following the managers philosophy to the letter...which they were mostly doing when we were playing better and scoring.
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Totally agree.
Some of our fans are a joke. They moaned about the football earlier in the season but we're playing differently now and they still moan, basically because they decided they didn't like VI right from the start. Don't get me wrong everyone is entitled to criticise if it's constructive but a lot of stuff is poison. A lot of these are the same fans that were outraged about Bilic's sacking after about three wins in a calendar year. Its just crackers. We are third in the table not in the bottom six.
I haven't seen the attendance for the Forest game I couldn't find it initially and gave up looking but the number of empty seats was embarrassing. So much for supporting your club.
The football we are playing at the moment is predictable, I agree with that but is not unattractive now. Two good forwards and this team is as good as any in the division.
IMO the weather, difficulty in getting there & the televised Friday night fixture had a bigger influence on the attendance than the football.
I do agree though, the derogatory and insulting comments from some of our fans are embarrassing.
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Unbeaten in 6 (5 draws and 1 win). Lost at home to Fulham 4-0 24th October.
We are in a rut and something needs to change. As I keep saying it's not so much the managers playing style that's the problem it's the players inability to carry it out.
When they were playing the style correctly we were top of the league and winning nearly every game, once the decided it was too hard to press with intensity and also started just lumping it up from the back missing out the midfield that's when the problems started.
I'd rather we kept the manager and got rid of some of the players that can't/won't play his way.
Ismael is the 7th manager since we got rid of Pulis and the football is no better and hasn't been any better other than a brief spell under Moore and a brief spell under Bilic....maybe changing the manager won't improve anything?
Totally agree with this from baggiemart
Yes, you are correct. I thought i heard Sky yesterday say they were unbeaten. I checked though and 1 loss in 12, sounds like a good record to have. Superior to VI current record whichever way you slice it.
What's clear to me is that VI only has 1 way to play and he needs significant investment to do that. Seems like he's not going to be given that so whats the point in keeping him?
Problem with these managers who have a almost niche, set in stone way of playing is getting rid of their players after they are gone. It took years to recover from Pulis transfer dealings. Then Bilic came in and flip flopped it 360, now we again have an unbalanced squad due to him and Dowling bickering.
If we back VI then we are just going to get his players and no doubt he will be gone in a few years regardless.
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the 3 up top was working fine at first. Before the Stoke game we'd scored 20 goals, since then we've scored 7.
I think the players look half hearted because we've abandoned the high intensity press and results have got worse. The decision to abandon it I doubt was Ismael's choice as it's a cornerstone of his philosophy. I would assume that it came from some of the players who since they got there way have been responsible for even poorer results and performances.
The players were saying how hard they found his training earlier in the season.
I agree Mowatt is better than we've seen in the last 10 games or so but that coincides with the lack of following the managers philosophy to the letter...which they were mostly doing when we were playing better and scoring.
I don't the 3 up top have ever really settled if im honest , doesnt help with have 3 wingers really .
Dropping the press , I doubt thats due go the players , Vals far too stubborn for that .
I'm quite honest that I don't enjoy his football , I certainly don't agree with points over performances every week but J wouldn't want this core group to see another manager off .
That said he has to be more flexible himself.
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I know football has become a business, but its supposed to be 'entertaining' isn't it?. The most entertaining part of a game is when we score? But we don't score. Ultimately we all want to win, but i want to feel that buzz when im at a game, with players showing heart as well as skill. I can forgive losing if the team has given 100% and tried to play actual football. My god I've seen some poor Albion teams in my time, in the 80's. Now VI stated he wanted players at the club that suited his system - At the moment he only has a handful at best that would suit it. So until he signs (Unlikely with this board) players that he actually wants, why cant he adapt, as well as the players? I wonder what Morrison makes of all this, as a i cant believe this is his style of football either. Now non of us knows whats gone on between Snodgrass and VI. Maybe he has voiced his concern to VI about how the system isn't working? Who knows. But it must have certainly ruffled VI's feathers if he's now on the transfer list. Is this the beginning of the end for VI,m only time will tell. But 'IF' he is slowly losing the senior players he is going to be fighting an uphill, and ultimately losing battle. I don't like player power, but we've seen it in the past, and the manager almost always loses. Yes I think some of these players need a rocket up their backsides, because they are paid very very handsomely to represent the club, but VI has to find a 'middle' ground for now, until he gets 'his' squad assembled (Given time and money of course). I have calmed down since friday, but VI has to bend a little if he is to maintain his position. January will tell if the club are prepared to back him or not. I think he needs to get shot of several players, but thats not realistic in the January window. It's going to be an uphill battle both on and off the pitch. If we fail to bring in a good striker (or 2), and a creative midfielder I fear the worst.
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Yes, you are correct. I thought i heard Sky yesterday say they were unbeaten. I checked though and 1 loss in 12, sounds like a good record to have. Superior to VI current record whichever way you slice it.
What's clear to me is that VI only has 1 way to play and he needs significant investment to do that. Seems like he's not going to be given that so whats the point in keeping him?
Problem with these managers who have a almost niche, set in stone way of playing is getting rid of their players after they are gone. It took years to recover from Pulis transfer dealings. Then Bilic came in and flip flopped it 360, now we again have an unbalanced squad due to him and Dowling bickering.
If we back VI then we are just going to get his players and no doubt he will be gone in a few years regardless.
Yes Coopers current record is better than Ismael's current record but we are still 12 places and 9 points better off. If you compare Ismael's start with Coopers start Ismael has the better tally. In his 12 games so far Cooper has got 21 points, in his first 12 games Ismael got 25 points. Who's to say Forest won't have a slump in form to match ours?
I agree that Ismael needs to be backed and I think we will get at least 2 players in January that he wants which will improve things for us.
He can then continue to rebuild in the Summer, no point in giving a manager a 4 year deal if we are going to sack him after less than half a season.
Surely a good player can adapt to any managers style of playing though? These players were playing fine until it seems they decided it was too hard to carry on implementing what the manager wanted.
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24 X 8 feet.
Last time I looked that's the size of a goal.
How much training do you need to hit that?
Val said he's got a week to sort it out
To me, all of our players need to practice shooting at goal from all angles
Then in a championship match shoot on site from anywhere
Hes banged into the players heads about the system that he wants, if any player sees a shot that's on for him have a go, test their goalie
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I don't the 3 up top have ever really settled if im honest , doesnt help with have 3 wingers really .
Dropping the press , I doubt thats due go the players , Vals far too stubborn for that .
I'm quite honest that I don't enjoy his football , I certainly don't agree with points over performances every week but J wouldn't want this core group to see another manager off .
That said he has to be more flexible himself.
so who's it down to, surely it can't be down to Ismael? If he's decided to drop the cornerstone of his philosophy then he can't be "too stubborn" can he?
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so who's it down to, surely it can't be down to Ismael? If he's decided to drop the cornerstone of his philosophy then he can't be "too stubborn" can he?
Is it fully dropped though ? , we've seen it in parts .
It is hard to apply a press when teams sit so deep , I'll standby my view I'd be suprised if it was VI unless the players are ignoring the plan from the first whistle .
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Yes Coopers current record is better than Ismael's current record but we are still 12 places and 9 points better off. If you compare Ismael's start with Coopers start Ismael has the better tally. In his 12 games so far Cooper has got 21 points, in his first 12 games Ismael got 25 points. Who's to say Forest won't have a slump in form to match ours?
I agree that Ismael needs to be backed and I think we will get at least 2 players in January that he wants which will improve things for us.
He can then continue to rebuild in the Summer, no point in giving a manager a 4 year deal if we are going to sack him after less than half a season.
Surely a good player can adapt to any managers style of playing though? These players were playing fine until it seems they decided it was too hard to carry on implementing what the manager wanted.
I just don't see him being backed, not VI fault of course but i don't see Lai opening the wallet.
Hopefully i'm wrong but who knows where we will be by then? We are sliding fast.
I hear you regarding the good player bit but the players were here before VI and VI knew what players he was going to have. If he couldn't see they would not suit him why come?
If he's lost the players then it's game over regardless.
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Just don’t see how this squad is seen as the problem. We do not have a lower champ squad, our form is down to one person.
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Some of our fans are a joke. They moaned about the football earlier in the season but we're playing differently now and they still moan, basically because they decided they didn't like VI right from the start. Don't get me wrong everyone is entitled to criticise if it's constructive but a lot of stuff is poison. A lot of these are the same fans that were outraged about Bilic's sacking after about three wins in a calendar year. Its just crackers. We are third in the table not in the bottom six.
I'm not sure if there's a consensus on what fans prefer as a style of play. Over the past 10 years, plenty of fans don't like:
- Tippy-tappy
- Long ball
- Defensive
- Gung-ho
- High pressing
- Sitting deep
- Isolated forwards
- Too many forwards
It used to be the case that the only thing that most fans like is winning, with the style of play being secondary. However, even that has changed this season for whatever reason - Val started getting it in the neck even when we were unbeaten for the first 10 games.
As the style of play seems to have increased in importance again, there doesn't seem to be a style that has the backing of the vast majority of fans. Ultimately, fans being so fickle isn't going to give the club a good reputation in the game, even if you exclude the likely lack of prestige that the owner/board have.
Increasingly, our fans seem to be unwilling to give new managers more than a few games before turning on them. Surely we need to find a way to become more patient again?
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Yes, you are correct. I thought i heard Sky yesterday say they were unbeaten. I checked though and 1 loss in 12, sounds like a good record to have. Superior to VI current record whichever way you slice it.
Would you agree we were much the better side yesterday until Molumby was sent off? At half-time we'd had 10 goal attempts to their 1. At the time Molumby was sent off, we'd had 14 goal attempts to their 4. We were better than them up until the dismissal changed the flow of the game. Even after than, we defended well to get the draw and should have won it at the death.
Basically, if we don't win some people are now regarding everything being wrong with Val's style of play and his management ability.
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Just don’t see how this squad is seen as the problem. We do not have a lower champ squad, our form is down to one person.
We are third in the league, with two better squads above us.
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We are third in the league, with two better squads above us.
Exactly!
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Would you agree we were much the better side yesterday until Molumby was sent off? At half-time we'd had 10 goal attempts to their 1. At the time Molumby was sent off, we'd had 14 goal attempts to their 4. We were better than them up until the dismissal changed the flow of the game. Even after than, we defended well to get the draw and should have won it at the death.
Basically, if we don't win some people are now regarding everything being wrong with Val's style of play and his management ability.
I'd say we were edging it. I think we had spells in control and so did they but we were slightly better off overall. Some of the garbage passing etc was unforiveable regardless.
Yes i feel we were better when we went down to 10
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Exactly!
Problem is, if you take away our good start (first 6 games or so) then we'd be bang in the middle of the league which is where we're heading. We've just drawn with Boro, Forest and Blackpool and look just as good/bad as them. I don't think playing this well will keep us in the play-offs and our points gap is shrinking with each game passing.
For what it's worth, I still think the ownership is the main problem, but Ismael HAS to change something as it's not working.
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West Brom Xtra saying 3/4 senior players had bustups with VI over performance and playing style not working.
Upto you whether you believe it or not of course. We know 1 is Snodgrass.
Wonder if this will force him to turn to the top talent in the U23s?
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Surely he's got to have a shot at forming his own team? We have to see whether he can attract some players over the winter break and over the summer. I can't think of what type of manager will want to come to a club with our record of manager dismissals except old gaffers who think they can squeeze a final pay packet from the game.
If you know at B71 you're only going to get half a season to form a team and inculcate your ideas before the fans turn on you - why would you come?
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Surely he's got to have a shot at forming his own team? We have to see whether he can attract some players over the winter break and over the summer. I can't think of what type of manager will want to come to a club with our record of manager dismissals except old gaffers who think they can squeeze a final pay packet from the game.
If you know at B71 you're only going to get half a season to form a team and inculcate your ideas before the fans turn on you - why would you come?
VI needs big money to make those changes though. Where is it coming from this season? There will also be a lot less money next season if we don't go up.
I don't think any of us expected him to have only 1 way of playing. We knew he had a preferred way but 1 is ridiculous. He did know that though before he took the job. Praying for a mutual miracle.
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West Brom Xtra saying 3/4 senior players had bustups with VI over performance and playing style not working.
Upto you whether you believe it or not of course. We know 1 is Snodgrass.
Wonder if this will force him to turn to the top talent in the U23s?
I think it’s clear something has happened. Only one loser when the players turn.
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I think it’s clear something has happened. Only one loser when the players turn.
Yes but this is the Albion, we will continue walking down the wrong path until money has been squandered and hope is lost.
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Two other dissenters names being mentioned are a Robinson and Ajayi, allegedly
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It's so odd, virtually everyone can see it but Val. He is a strangely stubborn man putting his neck through the noose every week.
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VI is a fan of Livermore & Bartley as captain & vc, arranged a contract extension for Matt Phillips.
Mowat played under VI at Barnsley
Johnstone is having his best form ever under VI.
Not sure who the senior players are who've had a bust up.
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Reminecent of 1963 when the players revolted because Hagan (manager) refused to let the players train in tracksuits at sub zero temperatures in the big freeze of 1963.
They wouldn’t train and eventually they were allowed tracksuits for training and they played much better in the following games. Maybe some truth in the player revolt with Val ??
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Have seen it reported that Robinson whilst not exactly over the moon has patched up the original fall out with VI. If Ajayi is the other one I reckon most on here would say he deserved to be left out which is usually at the root of disagreements between players and managers
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Always easy to blame the manager If you're a poor player or being left out. Systems don't win games players do (Brian Clough)
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A lot of people don’t think he’ll lose his job, I have a feeling he won’t see New Year at the Albion without a serious upturn in form.
The board must realise this is the easiest championship in decades. If I was on that board I’d be seriously talking to other candidates now and seeing what the lay of the land is.
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Reading most of these posts, anybody would think we were bottom rather than third. No-one has conceded fewer goals than us and, for all our deficiencies in the final third, only Fulham have had more goal attempts than us. Our goal attempts also aren't disproportionately from outside the penalty area either. Other than a recent failure to shoot accurately, there's nothing to suggest that the style of play is fundamentally failing.
With the number of goal attempts we're having, improved finishing will improve matters significantly and I believe things will change for the better soon. Those not interested in stats can look away now. Consider these from our past 6 games:
| Goal Attempts For | Goal Attempts Against |
| Hull (H) | 17 | 9 |
| Middlesbrough (H) | 9 | 6 |
| Huddersfield (A) | 20 | 6 |
| Blackpool (A) | 25 | 13 |
| Forest (H) | 16 | 9 |
| Total | 87 | 43 |
There is no major crisis here, just a recent lack of composure in the final third which can be corrected. Middlesbrough was dire, but the Blackpool game stands out most for me. Apart from big-time charlies supporting much bigger clubs than us, I wonder how many other clubs have finished games with boos and chants of "sack the board" after having 25 attempts on goal in a mid-season game which wasn't lost? That's not to denigrate the immense and impressive effort put in by the fans during that game prior to that, but the torch & pitchfork mentality seems to be taking hold swiftly and my view is that it simply isn't warranted.
As for alleged rebelling players, they need to remember how much they're paid every week to do the job required by their manager, just like many posters here have to for a tiny fraction of what they get.
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Reading most of these posts, anybody would think we were bottom rather than third. No-one has conceded fewer goals than us and, for all our deficiencies in the final third, only Fulham have had more goal attempts than us. Our goal attempts also aren't disproportionately from outside the penalty area either. Other than a recent failure to shoot accurately, there's nothing to suggest that the style of play is fundamentally failing.
With the number of goal attempts we're having, improved finishing will improve matters significantly and I believe things will change for the better soon. Those not interested in stats can look away now. Consider these from our past 6 games:
| Goal Attempts For | Goal Attempts Against |
| Hull (H) | 17 | 9 |
| Middlesbrough (H) | 9 | 6 |
| Huddersfield (A) | 20 | 6 |
| Blackpool (A) | 25 | 13 |
| Forest (H) | 16 | 9 |
| Total | 87 | 43 |
There is no major crisis here, just a recent lack of composure in the final third which can be corrected. Middlesbrough was dire, but the Blackpool game stands out most for me. Apart from big-time charlies supporting much bigger clubs than us, I wonder how many other clubs have finished games with boos and chants of "sack the board" after having 25 attempts on goal in a mid-season game which wasn't lost? That's not to denigrate the immense and impressive effort put in by the fans during that game prior to that, but the torch & pitchfork mentality seems to be taking hold swiftly and my view is that it simply isn't warranted.
As for alleged rebelling players, they need to remember how much they're paid every week to do the job required by their manager, just like many posters here have to for a tiny fraction of what they get.
The booing isn't just about the performances , its about how the club has been run for the last four seasons .
It might be your view its not warranted but these fans pay their money and follow the club all over the country .It wouldn't be my choice just yet as bored as I've been but I can understand parts of it .
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I'm shocked it's taken this long for the boo'ing to begin.
As Dexy says above, this is not just about VI. This is about 5 years of self-destructive ownership and management.
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The booing isn't just about the performances , its about how the club has been run for the last four seasons .
It might be your view its not warranted but these fans pay their money and follow the club all over the country .It wouldn't be my choice just yet as bored as I've been but I can understand parts of it .
I completely accept that they're fully entitled to their opinions moreso than other Albion fans, but the running of the club isn't likely to improve any time soon, most likely until there's a change of ownership, so is this going to happen at every game win, lose or draw?
Also, is it possible that the negativity is having an impact on the players and affecting their composure? Ideally, they shouldn't let it get to them, but it isn't unusual in such circumstances.
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As Sexy says above, this is not just about VI.
Is there something we should know?! ;D
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Is there something we should know?! ;D
;D
Not sure what's happened there I deffo typed Dexy!
Edited it thanks
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I completely accept that they're fully entitled to their opinions moreso than other Albion fans, but the running of the club isn't likely to improve any time soon, most likely until there's a change of ownership, so is this going to happen at every game win, lose or draw?
Also, is it possible that the negativity is having an impact on the players and affecting their composure? Ideally, they shouldn't let it get to them, but it isn't unusual in such circumstances.
On the other hand though if we don't make our feelings clear on how the club is run at the minute ( poorly) then it just carries on . Probably won't make much difference but maybe the 'saving face culture ' might change our fortunes a bit .
No I don't think it's upset the players too much , poor performances were slipping in before voices were raised at games .
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I'm shocked it's taken this long for the boo'ing to begin.
As Dexy says above, this is not just about VI. This is about 5 years of self-destructive ownership and management.
As frustrating as VI is at times ( and in my view it will cost him his job ) he is only the tip of the iceberg .
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As frustrating as VI is at times ( and in my view it will cost him his job ) he is only the tip of the iceberg .
I agree. Said it for Bilic and Allardyce too. These guys ain't perfect and the problems are from above them. Saying that it doesn't mean we should persevere with them when things go downhill either.
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There's a lot of 'burying our heads in the sand' since Lai took over. It's not good enough
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Lai is not going anywhere, so unless a miracle occurs in January I do t see how we improve under VI
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I agree. Said it for Bilic and Allardyce too. These guys ain't perfect and the problems are from above them. Saying that it doesn't mean we should persevere with them when things go downhill either.
That said they are the ones who coach and set them up , you have to use what you have and I'm not convinced VI has done that yet , the 3 up top annoys me when not one of them is a proper striker ( not mentioning Hugill ! ) and they look disjointed most games . The press can be done with a 4 3 3 or a 4 2 3 1 so thats not an excuse really , frustrating .
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Keep seeing the board will do this the board will see that, what board? Ken appointed VI after Lai vetoed Wilder, the Chinese hate to lose face so the lack of coherent management offield is unlikely to make or be listened to regarding football decisions.
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West Brom Xtra saying 3/4 senior players had bustups with VI over performance and playing style not working.
Upto you whether you believe it or not of course. We know 1 is Snodgrass.
Wonder if this will force him to turn to the top talent in the U23s?
It’s not a new issue, see my post on this thread from 4th November.
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That said they are the ones who coach and set them up , you have to use what you have and I'm not convinced VI has done that yet , the 3 up top annoys me when not one of them is a proper striker ( not mentioning Hugill ! ) and they look disjointed most games . The press can be done with a 4 3 3 or a 4 2 3 1 so thats not an excuse really , frustrating .
Vi could do so much more than he is doing but he refuses so I've run out of patience with the guy personally
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It’s not a new issue, see my post on this thread from 4th November.
Yes I do recall you mentioning it in the past. Thanks for heads up. Now it seems the player names are coming out
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It seems he has 11 roles in his imagination and the players are instructed to fill one of them, no questions, no deviation. For example, when struggling to break down teams like Derby and Forest who were playing without any real presence up front we still had three CBs strung across the back. Maybe it is his relative inexperience, he wants to be in control of everything.
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People on here say VI is stubborn and won't change and others say he's not using the pressing tactics so much. Personally I think that there has been a marked difference between start of the season and the present day. He seems to have recognised that teams have sussed the continuous ball over the top bombardment and mixes it up with working it out to the wings. What he can't do is play through the middle because he has no deft, sharp turning midfielders like Krov and MP. Molumby brings energy and we hope that he can prove that he's much more skillful than Livermore; glimpses but jury's out on him.
I was doubtful about his style at the start but we can't dismiss VI after just half a season, we're becoming a laughing stock. We need to give him a chance to evolve with maybe some modest recruitment.
... and there's no money seemingly
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Talk in the latest Liquidator podcast that VI is skating on thin ice and the Coventry game might have a bearing on his short term future
https://podfollow.com/1506558908/episode/5c2b511bd44a8fd69680ba09719bfc72b2f4e438/view
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Quelle surprise........
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Talk in the latest Liquidator podcast that VI is skating on thin ice and the Coventry game might have a bearing on his short term future
https://podfollow.com/1506558908/episode/5c2b511bd44a8fd69680ba09719bfc72b2f4e438/view
I listened to it this morning.
IMO it's a mouthpiece for S4A.
I didn't agree with Goldberg when he said Friday's game was rubbish.
I though Hugill's miss on Friday was bad, but I'm not going to nail him to a cross for it. Rudiger, a Champions League footballer, missed a similar one for Chelsea yesterday.
He's saying that the club is opaque & yet claims that VI is skating on thin ice.
I'm not saying that some of the points they make are not valid, but they have to sensationalise everything, it's as though Goldberg & Lepkowski have agendas.
Tend to think you get a much more balanced response from other local Journos.
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Lepkowski seems to be making he’s going/ let’s get rid bullets on Twitter without ever quite going so far as he wants rid himself , agree with John he seems to have an agenda
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I listened to it this morning.
IMO it's a mouthpiece for S4A.
I didn't agree with Goldberg when he said Friday's game was rubbish.
I though Hugill's miss on Friday was bad, but I'm not going to nail him to a cross for it. Rudiger, a Champions League footballer, missed a similar one for Chelsea yesterday.
He's saying that the club is opaque & yet claims that VI is skating on thin ice.
I'm not saying that some of the points they make are not valid, but they have to sensationalise everything, it's as though Goldberg & Lepkowski have agendas.
Tend to think you get a much more balanced response from other local Journos.
Pretty much agree with all this
There seemed a similar agenda towards the end of Slavs reign
However Big Sam could do no wrong it seemed
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Pretty much agree with all this
There seemed a similar agenda towards the end of Slavs reign
However Big Sam could do no wrong it seemed
Not listened to it yet but will this afternoon.
I agree with both on many issues past and present but there is an air with Lepkowski that having worked in media circles and at the club that he feels a level above the listeners (fans) and that any inside info they do divulge seems to get watered down to the bare minimum.
Goldberg comes across as a genuine fan with no agenda whether you agree with him or not.
Onto VI, his stubborn nature will cost him his job if it continues no doubt about it. I'm more than happy with the 3 CB's and wing backs it's the central midfield link to the attack and the front 3 themselves which we all seem believe is the glaring issue...apart from the coaching team :o
And with certain players showing reservations whether it's shape, intensity, patterns of play - whether you believe it's right or wrong them putting their opinions out there they are being proven right. The body language of our front 3 throughout a game is obvious that they don't believe in the tactics, Diangana taking 10 mins to walk round the pitch was confirmation of that not that we needed such concrete evidence :-[
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I listened to it this morning.
IMO it's a mouthpiece for S4A.
I didn't agree with Goldberg when he said Friday's game was rubbish.
I though Hugill's miss on Friday was bad, but I'm not going to nail him to a cross for it. Rudiger, a Champions League footballer, missed a similar one for Chelsea yesterday.
He's saying that the club is opaque & yet claims that VI is skating on thin ice.
I'm not saying that some of the points they make are not valid, but they have to sensationalise everything, it's as though Goldberg & Lepkowski have agendas.
Tend to think you get a much more balanced response from other local Journos.
The distinction is that Rudiger is a defender so finishe's like that are no surprise. Infact as a defender he's scored twice as many goals as Hugill so far this season. In 11 season Hugill has only got double figures 3 times.
What on earth were the club thinking about to sign a player like him.
That said we sign at least one dudd every season.
If we drop out of the top six I think Vals days will be numbered
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I think we are already at a crossroads in Vals tenure.
The optimist in me thinks there is a long term plan, the realist isnt so sure.
Its really unlike Albion to pay compo for somebody and to hand out four year deals, so maybe the plan is give Val the four years to build a team to get out this league and be ready for the premier league.
The current squad i think is one of the best in this league but thats more of a reflection on how poor the league is, i would imagine most clubs would want our squad and its certainly in the top 6 so where are now is probably about right.
I think should we go up, we are going to be like last season and get found out again, out the current squad i dont think there are many who will get any better, being decent to good championship players is their level.
I think Johnstone has shown he can do it at premier league level (but probably wont be here next season) O Shea has time on his side, Clarke should we sign him i think may be okay depending who is alongside him and Townsend has bucked the trend in that he has got better with age.
Moloumby should we sign him too i would like to think will improve, at the moment i think he seems a younger version of Livermore, he gets around the pitch, works hard but i havent seen much quality. I am unsure on Mowatt, he has scored a couple of cracking goals and takes a good set piece and similar to Moloumby, would probably benefit with a real good quality player alongside them, rather than workhorses.
Diangana still has time on his side but its well over 18 months since he hit any sort of form, and i think Robinson would be a squad player should we go up, he is good at times but not consistent enough, we can get away with that at this level.
Some of the others will probably be okay for a year or two at this level and be okay as subs if we got to the premier league and be used in certain games / situation,s i think thats why the likes of Phillips, Bartley and Furlong were given extra contracts, Phillips and Bartley certainly in a couple of years time i would hope will be moved on as the squad will hopefully of evolved and they arent going to get better.
I think Val has a unique way of playing and for it to work, you need everybody on board and buying into it 100% of the time, it started well but once we struggled and there were signs the system wasnt working, it did seem the players wasnt happy, i know there are reports of fallouts but the players body language lately suggests they arent happy and enjoying things.
However, a lot of these players were the same ones who laboured towards the end under Bilic and for the first couple of months under Big Sam seemed to give up, so i think they are more of the problem than any manager.
The crossroads is do you give the manager time to revamp the squad, knowing it will take time and that there isnt much money to spend, and that your relying on his contacts and nous or do you get rid of the manager which is much easier and cheaper than revamp the squad, but also know that should they get promoted, they are likely to come back down with a whimper and also that if they dont like the next manager, they have a history of letting managers down.
The optimist says that Val has been brought in on a four year deal because the club knows we need a revamp and these players will struggle to get us up and wont keep us up should we even get there, he has given the current squad a chance and by now will know who is onboard with his ways and who isnt, the problem will be i imagine it will take a few windows to get the squad full of Val type players, and time isnt on managers side normally, lets hope we are going to buck the trend.
I think at the moment he has tried to compromise a bit with the current squad by playing more football whilst trying to stick to the formation he swears by, its a bit in the middle, neither one way or another and, a bit of mix and match at the moment and recent form shows it isnt working, it doesnt reflect well on Val or the players.
The board have a decision to make, crowds dont matter as much financially as they used to but seeing more and more empty seats and booing becoming a regular matchday thing, doesnt look great for us as a club or a brand. Val cant exactly come out and say that he wants to get rid of a load of these players as he may need them for a bit and they just gave up under Big Sam when he said a similar thing, i am not sure they are busting a gut right now, but Val probably is having to tow the line right now.
I would give him January, let him do some trading if we can, maybe cash in on a Robinson, Grant or Diangana, we would get some fees for one of them, they are all pretty much the same player, they all have the pros and cons, Grady and Grant are a couple of years younger than Robinson so maybe that would come into the thinking as they could improve.
Also Ajayi has had a poor season, his redeeming feature seems to be his pace, but we could get a decent fee for him i imagine and he isnt playing and he hasnt played well when he has.
I know it sounds very football manager but if we could sell a couple of players, and sign 4 or 5 Val type players, i would be keen to see how that worked out, i am not convinced by Val yet but i would like to see a manager given time and see what they can do as we have kept chopping and changing the last few years and we are back to where we were.
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Big Val has a 4 year contract in his pocket
How people on here can say get rid so soon is quite ridiculous
He will be a success at albion, some people want change for change sake
What do you want, beautiful on the eye football?
Results?
Or new manager?
Look at the stats please
Where are we in the league? Oh yes 3rd!
Fed up of the negativity, Val has been here 5 minutes, ffs.
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...I am not convinced by Val yet but i would like to see a manager given time and see what they can do as we have kept chopping and changing the last few years and we are back to where we were.
About where I am with all of this. We clearly cannot afford to pay him off anyway and I'm tired of the manager merry go round that we have had for god knows how long now; it's got us nowhere.
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The last ten games has seen us enter a relegation battle in the form table. 12 points from ten games. That for a club which has aspirations of being promoted is not good enough. In that time we’ve managed a paltry 7 goals though our defensive record remains good.
It is clear there is some frustration on the pitch too - the team are caught in a mixture of styles and we seemingly have reports of player fall outs too.
Granted we need some additional quality into this squad, but the make over that some are expecting to happen is not going to happen. We also cannot operate with a head coach who is seemingly struggling to get his methods across and does not have the buy in of those players otherwise we lose those parachute payments and any prospect of returning.
I am not seeing anything on the pitch that resembles a club destined to be promoted - nor am I witnessing anything that suggests to me that the players are buying into Val’s methods.
I know some like to mention the budget as our excuse for not taking action but our budget has been no different to many sides in this league who have spent very little. Our players would also be courted by many in this division and improve their sides. The difference is those clubs seemingly appear better coached than we do on far less resources than we have and that for me is a grave concern.
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About where I am with all of this. We clearly cannot afford to pay him off anyway and I'm tired of the manager merry go round that we have had for god knows how long now; it's got us nowhere.
In the latest Liquidator podcast, Chris Lepkowski said he would be very surprised if there wasn’t a break clause of some description and consequence in Val’s contract that either side could activate
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In the latest Liquidator podcast, Chris Lepkowski said he would be very surprised if there wasn’t a break clause of some description and consequence in Val’s contract that either side could activate
Allardyce, Pardew and I’m pretty sure Bilic all had similar in their contracts.
Not sure whether it’s a standard practice or whether something we’ve committed too given the length of contract.
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Perfectly justifiable concerns Liam and for the record I don't think our squad's anywhere near as bad as some would suggest. At the same time we have some glaring deficiencies and a couple of very mediocre players taking up a fair old chunk of the wage bill and layaway transfer policy.
As is the case with every squad in the Championship we've also had some notable absentees due to injuries and suspensions. Running a lean ship's one thing, running it on a skeleton crew is another. Wim down to the bare bones in midfield and (apparently) have a revolt in the dressing room.
To be perfectly honest I'm more than a little sick and tired of dressing room unrest. Whatever the players thoughts on the manager and his tactics they're supposed to be professionals. So be professional. The amount of bosses I've liked are very few and far between but it never stopped me giving of my best.
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I think we are already at a crossroads in Vals tenure.
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The board have a decision to make, crowds dont matter as much financially as they used to but seeing more and more empty seats and booing becoming a regular matchday thing, doesnt look great for us as a club or a brand.
Gate receipts at Championship level make up a significant part of the club's income stream.
Income from media (discounting parachute payments) tend to be very small in comparison to EPL.
I believe we get around £1 million per home match shown on TV.
That being the case, I can't see the board tolerating falling gate receipts or a reduction in televised games for long.
On the other hand, allegedly our allocation for the Coventry game on Saturday has sold out.
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Top post Liam , I'm torn really as I'm sick of this group of players being mentally weak and failing . There's a few way past their best yet sit here on decent money and fooling another manager .
That said I'm less than convinced by VI and that goes back to watching his Barnsley side last season , I'm not at all convinced a striker or two will be a cure .
The fact our most attacking player is often Townsend says a lot ( then he gets shunted to CB when needed ) .
A mess made of two or three things right now .
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Top post Liam , I'm torn really as I'm sick of this group of players being mentally weak and failing . There's a few way past their best yet sit here on decent money and fooling another manager .
That said I'm less than convinced by VI and that goes back to watching his Barnsley side last season , I'm not at all convinced a striker or two will be a cure .
The fact our most attacking player is often Townsend says a lot ( then he gets shunted to CB when needed ) .
A mess made of two or three things right now .
It’s not going to help that we’re giving new deals to players whose contribution is minimal. Doesn’t do much hope for a rebuild anytime soon.
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At some point we have to stick with a manager through a bad patch or else nothing will change.
Since being relegated Darren Moore had a good six months, bad 2 months, still 4th in the league - sacked
Slav - we were top the game before going into lockdown, we wasnt great after lockdown but still got promoted automatic with a high points total and good scoring and defensive record, a indifferent start to the next season with a sub standard squad, yet still only 3 points from safety - sacked.
Big Sam it seems left of his accord but each of those managers have been completely different to the others meaning they want different types of players to play their own preffered style, so we end up with a mix and match squad full of players from three different managers, then add in the type of players Val wants, there is no foundation or continuity.
I know it happens at a number of clubs but it seems Albions aim is to be a stable premier league club again so Lai can sell, we got relegated four seasons ago and we are in the same position we were then which shows the hire and fire approach isnt working.
If val does stay and we go up with this squad, we know there isnt going to be huge sums to spend, So the majority of this squad will still be there probably around this time next year when Val gets sacked for us being in the bottom three and then we get a new manager in and the whole process is repeated.
It would be great if Val was able to say to the players i am here to stay, you can either buy in and stay or we will move you on but very few will go to better teams than Albion as they are mainly decent championship level players.
We dont have a director of football and that approach hasnt worked well for some time anyway, we need to say to a manager build a team that can go up and stay up, because our previous approach wasnt working, the majority of these players have got two managers sacked and one decided he didnt want to work with them anymore so at some point those players need to be moved on.
I think its being reported we have structured our finances inline with three years parachute money so why not take advantage of that approach, let a manager have time, give him a few windows to put his stamp on things.
I am hoping that the club have realised that with this group of players it doesnt matter who the coach is, even if we go up, we wont stay up and they wont be able to sell and get anything back like what they paid, however january and next summers window gives us chance to do a bit of trading and revamp the squad, it wont happen overnight and mistakes will be made but i would like to see us at least give it a go!
I am not convinced by Val but if we paying some other club compo and putting him on a long deal (even with a break) we have to give him a chance to build a team.
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In the latest Liquidator podcast, Chris Lepkowski said he would be very surprised if there wasn’t a break clause of some description and consequence in Val’s contract that either side could activate
YEs very common now to limit compensation and rightly so.
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YEs very common now to limit compensation and rightly so.
It's likely that the contract would have a heavy performance related content based on results.
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It's likely that the contract would have a heavy performance related content based on results.
Well if VI isn't careful he will be approaching his cut off very soon.
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Lepko nowadays know's the inside track on nothing in particular and is just creating air time. Why would a manager sign a four year contract with detremental clauses on compo and or performance?? I'm afraid it's just wishful thinking here on the part of some.
A four year contract means GOING NOWHERE unless the wheels totally come off and we lose touch with the top 6 completely. That might happen and then we can discuss again, but to talk about him being sacked when he has the third best squad in the league (arguably) in third place is just nonsense.
Neither will the owners give a monkeys toss about empty seats. The income from those few seats comparative to other streams is miniscule and West Brom will continue to get good air time as we are still a slightly bigger fish in this smaller pond.
I don't know about long term plans and squad rebuilding but like him or loathe him it would appear the owners went **** or bust on the fella and will have to give him time.
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Lepko nowadays know's the inside track on nothing in particular and is just creating air time. Why would a manager sign a four year contract with detremental clauses on compo and or performance?? I'm afraid it's just wishful thinking here on the part of some.
A four year contract means GOING NOWHERE unless the wheels totally come off and we lose touch with the top 6 completely. That might happen and then we can discuss again, but to talk about him being sacked when he has the third best squad in the league (arguably) in third place is just nonsense.
Neither will the owners give a monkeys toss about empty seats. The income from those few seats comparative to other streams is miniscule and West Brom will continue to get good air time as we are still a slightly bigger fish in this smaller pond.
I don't know about long term plans and squad rebuilding but like him or loathe him it would appear the owners went **** or bust on the fella and will have to give him time.
As he was fourth choice at best with the opportunity to manage a much bigger club unfortunately for him he would accept anything. He would be on a twelve month payoff at very best for him.
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Down to fourth now and with the next game away to Coventry there is a good chance we could be out the playoffs in the next couple of rounds of matches.
We’ve been on the decline since the Arsenal game. We need to get rid now.
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Frazzle you talk a lot of sense.
People say give him time and money ( if he's definitely getting a load of money then fair enough, i can't see it personally), yet most of these people say we can't afford to sack him. Which is it guys?
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Down to fourth now and with the next game away to Coventry there is a good chance we could be out the playoffs in the next couple of rounds of matches.
We’ve been on the decline since the Arsenal game. We need to get rid now.
You can’t criticise us when we’re 2nd…
We’re still 3rd in the league…
We’re still 4th in the league…
It’s a horrible slippery slope when it starts…
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Sometimes when you invest, you make a bad decision. You either have to cut your losses and take it on the chin and recover elsewhere or watch your investment turn to nothing over time.
I know what most people would do but Lai is something else. Scary stuff.
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You can’t criticise us when we’re 2nd…
We’re still 3rd in the league…
We’re still 4th in the league…
It’s a horrible slippery slope when it starts…
And if he showed any inclination to try something new then I’d be willing to stick by him, but not adapting tactics for the opposition before or during the game and expecting the form to change is madness I’m afraid.
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Frazzle you talk a lot of sense.
People say give him time and money ( if he's definitely getting a load of money then fair enough, i can't see it personally), yet most of these people say we can't afford to sack him. Which is it guys?
I haven't seen anybody writing give him a load of money, we all know it doesn't exist - maybe what's due on a meagre budget. Time yes. Is his replacement going to get "a load of money"; it's xmas time, maybe a genie will appear. If we don't go up at the end of this season maybe the sense of entitlement will subside to levels commensurate with the size of budget and club.
I did remark on Barnsley's MO just before he was appointed but once appointed, he has to be given a season, surely?
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And if he showed any inclination to try something new then I’d be willing to stick by him, but not adapting tactics for the opposition before or during the game and expecting the form to change is madness I’m afraid.
When we typically out shoot the opposition by pretty much 2:1, what exactly needs to be changed apart from being more successful in front of goal?
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The problem is with keep sacking managers where does it end?
If we sack Val tomorrow, get somebody new in, have a similar run of results for the next four months, still 3rd or 4th in the table come March, do we sack the new man?
Appoint someone else in March, if we finish in the playoff positions come May, sack him too?
We are on a bad run of form, a very bad run but most teams of our level have bad runs, we arent a great side, we will have poor runs of form, we will also have good runs of form, we started the season very well, you dont give managers new contracrs if they have a good run, same as you shouldnt sack them during a bad run, especially when that bad run has still led to us being 4th in the table.
I dont like Vals style at the moment but i wasnt complaining when we putting 2 past Bournemouth, 4 past Sheffield United, 3 past Luton, teams did suss us out a bit and Val certainly has to adapt but these players seemed quite happy when things were good well, but soon as things got a bit tough they seemed to stop trying as much, it did for Darren Moore and it did for Bilic.
I would prefer to judge Val and his style when he has more of his own players instead of a few freebie squad players and loans, i imagine the last few months have taught Val a lot about our squad and their attitudes and mentality.
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Lepko nowadays know's the inside track on nothing in particular and is just creating air time. Why would a manager sign a four year contract with detremental clauses on compo and or performance?? I'm afraid it's just wishful thinking here on the part of some.
A four year contract means GOING NOWHERE unless the wheels totally come off and we lose touch with the top 6 completely. That might happen and then we can discuss again, but to talk about him being sacked when he has the third best squad in the league (arguably) in third place is just nonsense.
Neither will the owners give a monkeys toss about empty seats. The income from those few seats comparative to other streams is miniscule and West Brom will continue to get good air time as we are still a slightly bigger fish in this smaller pond.
I don't know about long term plans and squad rebuilding but like him or loathe him it would appear the owners went **** or bust on the fella and will have to give him time.
Couple of things............
We have allegedly paid around £2million compensation for VI, plus an undisclosed sum for his support staff.
It's highly unlikely that we would compound that by offering him a package that wouldn't have a high performance related content.
Media income in the Championship is tiny in comparison to the EPL , so the board would absolutely be interested in gate receipt income.
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I haven't seen anybody writing give him a load of money, we all know it doesn't exist - maybe what's due on a meagre budget. Time yes. Is his replacement going to get "a load of money"; it's xmas time, maybe a genie will appear. If we don't go up at the end of this season maybe the sense of entitlement will subside to levels commensurate with the size of budget and club.
I did remark on Barnsley's MO just before he was appointed but once appointed, he has to be given a season, surely?
Most managers wouldn't need a load of money to get this squad playing better. I'd say a good manager would walk in and be adaptable and play to their strengths or even just squeeze more out of the existing players like Cooper at Forest.
The only thing can moan about it lack of a quality proper CF. Most of our issues are his own doing in terms of losing squad support. Being out thought etc
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When we typically out shoot the opposition by pretty much 2:1, what exactly needs to be changed apart from being more successful in front of goal?
Spot on. I’d be far more worried if we weren’t creating chances. Saw Charlie Austin playing very well for QPR tonight and Andre Gray score a worldie winner. If we’d kept Austin and signed Gray rather than Hugill my hunch is that we’d still be top 2.
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I'd say a good manager would walk in and be adaptable and play to their strengths or even just squeeze more out of the existing players like Cooper at Forest.
That's the same Forest & Cooper that we had out-shot by 14 attempts to 4 up to the point that Molumby was sent off?
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That's the same Forest & Cooper that we had out-shot by 14 attempts to 4 up to the point that Molumby was sent off?
Most of our attempts are garbage though.
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That's the same Forest & Cooper that we had out-shot by 14 attempts to 4 up to the point that Molumby was sent off?
yeah, we out shot them, 14 to 4 but what was the final score? Oh 0-0. We could have had 50 shots to their 4 but if we don't score it doesn't really matter! The only stat that counts in a game is the goals for and the goals against coulmn.
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Turning out to be another poor appointment. Lose to Coventry and I expect he will be gone.
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Most of our attempts are garbage though.
Precisely this.
We can shoot from 30 yards and whether it is blocked, on or off target it counts as a shot.
Folk continue to mention this shot count and celebrate it as a success and justification of what we’re doing. They never consider that the actual chances and level of football is extremely poor.
I think, from memory, against Forest we had one clear cut chance which was at the end of the game with Hugill
But the stats say we had 16 shots, regardless of whether they’re blocked, on/off target so it must be thoroughly entertaining..
It is poor.
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Turning out to be another poor appointment. Lose to Coventry and I expect he will be gone.
That's the crux of it really. Every appointment has failed at some level
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Precisely this.
We can shoot from 30 yards and whether it is blocked, on or off target it counts as a shot.
Folk continue to mention this shot count and celebrate it as a success and justification of what we’re doing. They never consider that the actual chances and level of football is extremely poor.
I think, from memory, against Forest we had one clear cut chance which was at the end of the game with Hugill
But the stats say we had 16 shots, regardless of whether they’re blocked, on/off target so it must be thoroughly entertaining..
It is poor.
There is an argument that says we lack creativity, IMO the number of shots we have disproves that argument.
The quality of our shots though is poor, even in the warm ups, the number of misses are incredibly high.
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Most of our attempts are garbage though.
Your point was that Cooper/Forest = marvellous and Ismael/Albion = appalling, but how the game actually went didn't reflect this.
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You can’t criticise us when we’re 2nd…
We’re still 3rd in the league…
We’re still 4th in the league…
It’s a horrible slippery slope when it starts…
He was criticised when we were second. He was criticised when we were third. He will continue to be criticised if he doesn't turn things around and rightly so should that be the case.
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Precisely this.
We can shoot from 30 yards and whether it is blocked, on or off target it counts as a shot.
Folk continue to mention this shot count and celebrate it as a success and justification of what we’re doing. They never consider that the actual chances and level of football is extremely poor.
I think, from memory, against Forest we had one clear cut chance which was at the end of the game with Hugill
But the stats say we had 16 shots, regardless of whether they’re blocked, on/off target so it must be thoroughly entertaining..
It is poor.
Hugill, Furlong and Grant should all have been on the score sheet given very presentable chances. That's before we get to set pieces and our central defenders who simply aren't delivering.
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yeah, we out shot them, 14 to 4 but what was the final score? Oh 0-0. We could have had 50 shots to their 4 but if we don't score it doesn't really matter! The only stat that counts in a game is the goals for and the goals against coulmn.
Hence me saying that we need to improve our play in the final third. Our current record is W9 D7 L4, which would give us 78 points if repeated over the full season, only 5 less than we got in the Bilic promotion season. Does anyone believe that the current squad is better than the one Bilic had?
Yes we've faltered of late in front of goal, but our passing and possession has improved recently due to an alteration made by Val to our style of play, and no-one has conceded fewer goals than us. In fact we've allowed the lowest number of shots against in the entire division. I posted our attacking stats in another thread on Saturday, which disproved the regularly trotted out claim that our goal attempts are primarily speculative efforts from outside the box.
People had it in for Val when we were unbeaten after 10 games and scoring an average of 1.8 goals per game, so what's happened since then had just meant that they've added jagged edges to their already sharpened blades. We just need to improve in front of goal and the wins will return.
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He was criticised when we were second. He was criticised when we were third. He will continue to be criticised if he doesn't turn things around and rightly so should that be the case.
We could be 6th by the weekend chaps.......
Lets see how bulletproof he is then.
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And we could be third again
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We could be 6th by the weekend chaps.......
Lets see how bulletproof he is then.
This thread is proof positive that he's not remotely bulletproof ;D .
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It's the same old story from the fickle Albion fans.
If we are not top of the table playing wonderful football then we should sack the manager. I can't remember the last manager that all the fans got behind. Instead there are always a large majority calling for the manager to be sacked. it's a bit pathetic and sad really.
I haven't checked but we have probably had more managers in the last 10 years then any other side.
If you think we get a successful side by keeping changing manager then you should think again.
These players are basically no good. I don't think even Pep or Klopp would get these top of the championship.
Having seen QPR last night they look a far better side than us and they have strikers who will score goals.
If we lose on Saturday at Coventry and Blackburn beat Preston at home we will be 6th with plenty of other teams just behind us in the table.
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What's fickle about criticising a style of play or being concerned at the prospect of falling out of the top six when you're one of the promotion favourites?
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What's fickle about criticising a style of play or being concerned at the prospect of falling out of the top six when you're one of the promotion favourites?
Fickle is calling for the managers head when anything goes wrong but really its the players !!!
Yes we may drop out of the top 6 because thats where these players deserve to be.
None of our players are good enough to get into the top 3 teams with the probable exception of Johnstone.
We need to address the real problem and that is not the manager but the players !!
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Fickle is calling for the managers head when anything goes wrong but really its the players !!!
Yes we may drop out of the top 6 because thats where these players deserve to be.
None of our players are good enough to get into the top 3 teams with the probable exception of Johnstone.
We need to address the real problem and that is not the manager but the players !!
So is your cunning plan to get rid of all the players bar Sam [who probably is going] and let Val buy a new team? I think I can see a problem there.....
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We need to address the real problem and that is not the manager but the players !!
Are you not concerned that we have a manager who only has one tactic? Ignore the players for a second, we do the same thing, week in-week out, regardless of the variables.
Teams doing the same thing over and over again will inevitably get found out, as it appears we have, so the emphasis is on us to make changes. They only need to be subtle, nothing major, but on the evidence so far he simply can't/won't do it and we are suffering.
Our players are better than 8 points in 8 games against some of the dross we've faced, we're just predictable and easier to play against than we should be.
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So is your cunning plan to get rid of all the players bar Sam [who probably is going] and let Val buy a new team? I think I can see a problem there.....
Well one way or another that's whats got to be done because these players are taking us no where.
We will be extremely lucky to make the play offs, automatic has already gone.
We have got to build a new team based on the youngsters and getting some good league 1 players.
So the answer to your question is yes over time get rid of these players because as I have said before they are not good enough to get us out of the league and not to mention stay in the premier. Last time these players were in the premier they were getting battered every other match. So what do you do if by some miracle we get promoted !!!!
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Fickle is calling for the managers head when anything goes wrong but really its the players !!!
Yes we may drop out of the top 6 because thats where these players deserve to be.
None of our players are good enough to get into the top 3 teams with the probable exception of Johnstone.
We need to address the real problem and that is not the manager but the players !!
All of our players HAVE been in a top 3 team for the first 19 games this season.
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Fickle is calling for the managers head when anything goes wrong but really its the players !!!
Yes we may drop out of the top 6 because thats where these players deserve to be.
None of our players are good enough to get into the top 3 teams with the probable exception of Johnstone.
We need to address the real problem and that is not the manager but the players !!
And Townsend. And maybe O'Shea when fit. But if you'd said that none of our players bar these two or three would be good enough for the Premier League it would have been more accurate.
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Are you not concerned that we have a manager who only has one tactic? Ignore the players for a second, we do the same thing, week in-week out, regardless of the variables.
Teams doing the same thing over and over again will inevitably get found out, as it appears we have, so the emphasis is on us to make changes. They only need to be subtle, nothing major, but on the evidence so far he simply can't/won't do it and we are suffering.
Our players are better than 8 points in 8 games against some of the dross we've faced, we're just predictable and easier to play against than we should be.
That's the problem that you can't see, No our players aren't better than 8 points in 8 games. We are easier to play against because we are no good.
Do you really think a different manager will make these players into an automatic promtion team. Do you think a new manager will turn one of our strikers into a 20 goal a season man because thats what is needed. Do you think a new manger will turn one of our midfielders into a Pereira. Because the last two seasons when we were in the Championship those 2 factors got us into the play offs and also got us promoted !!!
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All of our players HAVE been in a top 3 team for the first 19 games this season.
But not now and maybe not again this season !!!
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It's not about top 2 for me. Whilst I always felt we would challenge, Fulham and Bournemouth have more cash and better squads (strikers) so 3rd wouldn't have been a disaster.
However, we should not be at risk of falling out of the top 6. Not with our squad and budget (2nd biggest wage bill?) compared to the rest of the League which is basically on it's backside. For us to finish 7th would be an absolute crime against football and that's what Val needs to address, he needs to come up with a plan to consolidate top 6 and, if possible, at least give the top 2 a run for their money.
With QPR winning and Cov up next, he's on very thin ice but I genuinely hope we pummel them and he gets a stay of execution.
If there are players, deliberately, hampering him, then they need to be out as that is a despicable insult to every single Albion fan. Said in another thread I would rather see a committed kid than a smirking, overpaid, lazy, so called, pro, thinking he can manipulate our team to cover his inadequacies.
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Fickle is calling for the managers head when anything goes wrong but really its the players !!!
Yes we may drop out of the top 6 because thats where these players deserve to be.
None of our players are good enough to get into the top 3 teams with the probable exception of Johnstone.
We need to address the real problem and that is not the manager but the players !!
Slightly over dramatic use of the exclamation marks if you don't mind me saying (!). I hate the term fickle. It's ok to question things and have concerns. It's even ok to not like the style of play. That isn't being fickle, it's having a point of view. So we're clear I haven't called for the manager's head.
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And Townsend. And maybe O'Shea when fit. But if you'd said that none of our players bar these two or three would be good enough for the Premier League it would have been more accurate.
I don't know about that. Maybe O'Shea in the future. Don't know about Townsend. He has played well this season but I still don't think he is up to the level of Gibbs when we were first in this league.
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Slightly over dramatic use of the exclamation marks if you don't mind me saying (!). I hate the term fickle. It's ok to question things and have concerns. It's even ok to not like the style of play. That isn't being fickle, it's having a point of view. So we're clear I haven't called for the manager's head.
Maybe not you but there are always Albion fans calling for the managers head when things don't go as planned. He has not been in the job 6 months yet and its not that he has gone and wasted millions in the transfer market.
Pep didn't win the title in his 1st season. It took Klopp a few seasons for him to win the title. And at a lower level Warburton at QPR has developed a good QPR side ( with 2 of our ex strikers !!) which has took him a couple of seasons.
So we should be giving the manager some kind of support.
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I think Val has shifted our style of play. There's definitely less launching it over the top but not exclusively. I agree the formation has remained the same, I would like to see 4-3-3 but at the moment who thinks we have 3 decent, genuine midfielders?
As someone else said it's good to keep the negative comments here and not on matchdays as the players will think that the boos are directed at them which is so counterproductive. the shots on goal might not have been "good" chances" but it is some proof that the players are trying.
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There has to be some middle ground.
We have been out the top 3 for less than 24 hours, its not really a crisis, same as when we were scoring for fun and top the start of the season, it didnt mean we were going to steamroll the whole league.
The championship is a unusual league, we are one of the better teams in a poor league and should probably be around the top 3 or 4, certainly top 6 and thats where we are.
I am with Baggiemart, the players are the ones who need changing, it wont happen overnight, it will take quite a few transfer windows but you need the same manager in place to do that and give stability as all managers want different players.
Whether its Val or somebody else, the players need to be changed, if Val was to go before xmas that would be three managers in a year, two sacked, one decided he didnt want to work with them, all different types of manager too, so maybe the managers arent the problem.
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Some keep on saying it's a poor league, how why do folks think that?
On their day the old adage is anyone can beat anyone, even in the premier league.
Val has been with us for 19 games
Hes had to put up with a squad that was relegated last season, no money to spend and some are moaning because we are not top 2, I just don't get what they want
I've said it before do you want pretty or results?
I do believe that we will bring in a person who is capable of getting into the right positions and scoring goals, once that happens we will be challenging top 2
Fulham and Bournemouth have not had injuries like we have or major changes wait till they have their bad spells, Whi h I think are beggining to show
Have faith in the man, if your still not happy at Christmas don't go to watch, why should Val go?
He doesn't go to work everyday to lose does he?
It's just my opinion I know but let's give him a chance
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Maybe not you but there are always Albion fans calling for the managers head when things don't go as planned. He has not been in the job 6 months yet and its not that he has gone and wasted millions in the transfer market.
Pep didn't win the title in his 1st season. It took Klopp a few seasons for him to win the title. And at a lower level Warburton at QPR has developed a good QPR side ( with 2 of our ex strikers !!) which has took him a couple of seasons.
So we should be giving the manager some kind of support.
Think it's more to do with expectations than being fickle. I'm not easily pleased but at the same time I didn't really have a high level of expectation once the window had closed.
I realised the style of play would be brutal at times yet didn't fully appreciate just how eye scratchingly boring some games would be either. It's about balance for me.
Hoped for promotion more than expected it and looking at the relative squads thought the playoffs was doable. Throw in a few goals, get some points and I'm ok generally.
I think a lot of Albion supporters are the same. Some would suggest that's small time and lacking in ambition. I prefer to think of it as being realistic. Don't forget, this place is a relatively small sample board of opinion.
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I am fickle. It is an absolute requirement as a football fan, IMO.
The definition of fickle is: changing frequently, especially as regards one's loyalties or affections.
So, what's the difference between questioning a manager or a player?
If I say that I liked Livermore last season, but not so much now, that is fickle by definition.
If I say I liked Val for the first few games but now not so much, then that is also fickle by definition.
We are all fickle, accept it and embrace it, we need it to survive the Albion rollercoaster. You can't just nail your colours to one mast and dig your heals in, the game and every component within it changes too quickly.
The only thing that's constant is the club itself.
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We cannot and will not get anywhere by changing Head Coach/ Manager every 20 games just because of style , team selection either . If VI goes before Xmas this will be what the 3 rd manager to fail to get to 25 league games in a very short space of time , unacceptable in my book barring criminal convictions and not a good incentive to attract better .If it happens we will be in danger of becoming the Watford of the Midlands !
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We cannot and will not get anywhere by changing Head Coach/ Manager every 20 games just because of style , team selection either . If VI goes before Xmas this will be what the 3 rd manager to fail to get to 25 league games in a very short space of time , unacceptable in my book barring criminal convictions and not a good incentive to attract better .If it happens we will be in danger of becoming the Watford of the Midlands !
For the record I do not want him gone at the moment. He deserves the January transfer window and, more importantly, he deserves to be backed by our esteemed board.
I would however like him to be a bit more flexible during matchdays.
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For the record I do not want him gone at the moment. He deserves the January transfer window and, more importantly, he deserves to be backed by our esteemed board.
I would however like him to be a bit more flexible during matchdays.
Pretty much my feelings ,not only is backing by the board deserved and necessary but he needs to be backed by the fans and the players to .
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Think it's more to do with expectations than being fickle. I'm not easily pleased but at the same time I didn't really have a high level of expectation once the window had closed.
I realised the style of play would be brutal at times yet didn't fully appreciate just how eye scratchingly boring some games would be either. It's about balance for me.
Hoped for promotion more than expected it and looking at the relative squads thought the playoffs was doable. Throw in a few goals, get some points and I'm ok generally.
I think a lot of Albion supporters are the same. Some would suggest that's small time and lacking in ambition. I prefer to think of it as being realistic. Don't forget, this place is a relatively small sample board of opinion.
Really good post Dan, think you have to be in contention for Diplomat of the year.
IMO, success at sport, along with other competitive elements of life, is highly dependant on confidence. What goes on between the ears is just as important as the mechanics.
What I'm seeing is, not a load of rubbish players, but players lacking in confidence.
This period is going to be a major test of VI's competence as a people manager, probably far more than his tactical ability.
He has to get buy-in from the players first.
I've said many times, even going back to the Pulis thread, that the majority of fans want results first & finesse second.
A win on Saturday would have a massive positive effect on the football club as a whole.
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Some keep on saying it's a poor league, how why do folks think that?
On their day the old adage is anyone can beat anyone, even in the premier league.
Val has been with us for 19 games
Hes had to put up with a squad that was relegated last season, no money to spend and some are moaning because we are not top 2, I just don't get what they want
I've said it before do you want pretty or results?
I do believe that we will bring in a person who is capable of getting into the right positions and scoring goals, once that happens we will be challenging top 2
Fulham and Bournemouth have not had injuries like we have or major changes wait till they have their bad spells, Whi h I think are beggining to show
Have faith in the man, if your still not happy at Christmas don't go to watch, why should Val go?
He doesn't go to work everyday to lose does he?
It's just my opinion I know but let's give him a chance
All for giving him a chance, god knows some stability is long overdue, BUT, he has to sort out his intransigence and predictability. The squad may / may not be good enough, but there are 2 teams on the pitch and we have to either adapt to the opposition and their tactics or make them adapt to ours, I see no evidence of this from VI and it will cost him unfortunately.
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We've been changing managers for years and only changed the Chairman once in 20 years.
Seems there's some levelling up to do.
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Stability would be a good thing, but we have to be with the right coach. I would suggest Hodgson and Pulis were a safe pair of hands, although the football with Pulis was tedious, Clark looked OK as well but football is a very unforgiving industry. Stability with the wrong coach is a disaster and there is the dilemma, VI could turn out OK but it does not look it at the moment and i fear if we lose the season we could be in for a long stay here. I think the owners desire to get their money back will be the factor here. if the results don't improve quickly it be the end of VI, better managers/coaches have been given the boot for less.
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All for giving him a chance, god knows some stability is long overdue, BUT, he has to sort out his intransigence and predictability. The squad may / may not be good enough, but there are 2 teams on the pitch and we have to either adapt to the opposition and their tactics or make them adapt to ours, I see no evidence of this from VI and it will cost him unfortunately.
Almost every game we're playing now, even during this bad run, we're significantly outshooting the opposition, also having more posession than them and continuing to allow only a low number of attempts on our goal, so I'm not really sure what it is that we need to be adapting to?
In my view, the problem we have is that, whereas we were scoring from a higher proportion of our goal attempts earlier in the season, now we're not. That's not a consequence of opposition tactics, but because:
a) our players have become goal-shy for some reason
b) the quality of our set pieces (corners, throw-ins and free-kicks) has declined noticeably
c) we need to pass better in the final third
Address those, plus avoid key injuries/suspensions, and I believe that we'll be on our way again before long.
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The true test of any good manager is how they cope with a bad run.
Pulis was a master at it, a couple of bad results and he'd just put 10 behind the ball (instead of the standard 9) and grind out a draw, which, in the top flight was usually acceptable. This, of course, was unless it was the end of the season, then he actively encouraged a bad run so that expectations for the next season did not get silly!
Roy also had a knack of stopping a slide before it got out of hand.
It was, however, very much the end of Clarke and Bilic, and not just here for the latter. They just couldn't seem to find answers when up against it.
Val needs a go to, to get back to winning ways. He's tweaked it in recent weeks and it's not paying off so he, perhaps, needs to strip back and follow his instinct. Might not be pretty, but, if we start winning again, there would be far fewer detractors. His main issue seems to be getting the players on board and personally, I would bomb anyone not fully committed and promote from within.
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The true test of any good manager is how they cope with a bad run.
Pulis was a master at it, a couple of bad results and he'd just put 10 behind the ball (instead of the standard 9) and grind out a draw, which, in the top flight was usually acceptable. This, of course, was unless it was the end of the season, then he actively encouraged a bad run so that expectations for the next season did not get silly!
Roy also had a knack of stopping a slide before it got out of hand.
It was, however, very much the end of Clarke and Bilic, and not just here for the latter. They just couldn't seem to find answers when up against it.
Val needs a go to, to get back to winning ways. He's tweaked it in recent weeks and it's not paying off so he, perhaps, needs to strip back and follow his instinct. Might not be pretty, but, if we start winning again, there would be far fewer detractors. His main issue seems to be getting the players on board and personally, I would bomb anyone not fully committed and promote from within.
And there is the biggest issue, VI has to work with what he has got. Bombing out players in a thin squad is suicide. it also a necessary attribute of most coaches outside of the big six/seven clubs.
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I have no real issue with VI but I can not see why he is not playing some of the youngsters or why he dropped Gardner Hickman after two very acceptable performances and why he refuses to play Diagana in his best position.
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Almost every game we're playing now, even during this bad run, we're significantly outshooting the opposition, also having more posession than them and continuing to allow only a low number of attempts on our goal, so I'm not really sure what it is that we need to be adapting to?
In my view, the problem we have is that, whereas we were scoring from a higher proportion of our goal attempts earlier in the season, now we're not. That's not a consequence of opposition tactics, but because:
a) our players have become goal-shy for some reason
b) the quality of our set pieces (corners, throw-ins and free-kicks) has declined noticeably
c) we need to pass better in the final third
Address those, plus avoid key injuries/suspensions, and I believe that we'll be on our way again before long.
Agree with most of what you say, but IMO, one of the consequences of VI's tactics is a very congested penalty area.
A combination of our attacking & our opponents defensive formations mean that play is funneled into the 6 yard box, from there it's really difficult to get a decisive shot away.
I've said on another topic that VI has to find a way of moving defenders around to ease that congestion.
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We create lots of poor quality opportunities. The numbers make that clear. We seem to take the first shooting opportunity rather than being slightly more patient and getting an easier goal. How many shots have we had where it's basically a tap in at the back post? Not many in recent weeks!
Not all shots are created equally!
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“Time For a Reality Check At Albionâ€
A decent article and reproduced below
All is not perfect at West Bromwich Albion, but if you performed a quick search on Twitter and other social media, you could be forgiven for thinking that there was a full-blown crisis at the club. Obviously, in some fans’ eyes, that is exactly what it is, but I think it is time for a reality check to fully appreciate where the club is and what we, as Baggies fans, should expect.
Firstly, I must point out that I am far from satisfied with Albion’s current situation, both in terms of our performances this season and in terms of the overall direction of the club over the past five years. I am not a “happy clapper†as some would term anyone who would prefer to get behind their club rather than criticise but, despite recent below par results, I do not see a benefit to sacking Valérien Ismaël at this stage of the season. Moreover, while events could easily make me look stupid very quickly, I do not think that particular nuclear button will be pushed any time soon.
In this opinion piece, which turned out to be longer than I had originally anticipated, I seek to explain why I believe that Big Val is not about to be sacked and, moreover, why I think he shouldn’t be.
Long term appointment
My principal reason for believing that Big Val’s job is not under pressure just yet is that it would go completely against the rationale behind the decision to appoint him. While I don’t necessary credit the club hierarchy with a huge amount of football know-how, no one in their right mind would pay £2m to secure a head coach from his previous club, hand him a four year contract and then sack him less than four months into a new season with the club in the top four.
Furthermore, the club’s CEO, Xu Ke (aka Ken), made one of the very few pronouncements of his tenure at the time saying “I am confident that by working together we will be able to achieve our goal of returning to the Premier League, but success is earned by building on strong foundations, and our plans must now look further into the future. For too long we have focused only on what is immediately in front of us. This means we have often neglected our long-term aspirations.†That suggests to me that Ken is planning on giving Ismaël more time than one transfer window and twenty games.
Obviously, he isn’t calling all the shots and Guoachan Lai, assuming he remains the majority shareholder, could step in as he did when blocking the appointment of Chris Wilder thereby triggering Luke Dowling’s departure, and if the rumours of unrest in the dressing room prove to be true, such an intervention may be more likely, but I personally feel that is unlikely. Financially, it would be a massive hit and it would also be admitting to a big mistake, something rare in Chinese culture as it is considered a show of weakness.
Having said that, the workings in the board room of the club are so veiled in secrecy that it is almost impossible to second guess what they might do. It’s not clear how they came to appoint Big Val in the first place, whether they had any advice from knowledgeable football people – despite his success with Barnsley, it was a bit left field for them to have come up with his name without some experienced help. So if someone helped in selecting him, perhaps that same person may be offering advice on what to do next.
It’s an evolution
Having outlined why I think Ismaël won’t be sacked, next onto why I don’t think he should be. The main reason is the same – I’m not blind to the drop in form and results, but it is too soon to consider getting rid of him, even without the financial implications. Even without Ken’s accompanying statement, it was obvious to me that his appointment was a long term play. The choice of a coach with a specific philosophy is necessarily a long term project and, while those that made the decision may not have realised it at the time, Val-ball was never going to suit all the players in the existing squad and, given that a complete overhaul would have been next to impossible both financially and practically in the short term, there was always going to be a gradual evolution of the playing staff which would necessarily take several transfer windows.
So how does that stack up against a desire to return to the Premier League at the earliest opportunity? On the face of it, it doesn’t unless the majority of the playing staff can adapt to the new philosophy. The early signs were promising but, as time has gone on, some key deficiencies have emerged, the most stark being the absence of a central striker attuned to play the way Val wants – the Frenchman had no doubt hoped that Ken Zohore would be able to do that, something that was quickly found to be beyond him.
Nonetheless, results up to the end of September had been good – let’s not forget that Albion were unbeaten in their first ten league games, a new club record – although there had been signs that the Baggies were struggling to break down defensive teams, although the 4-0 demolition of Cardiff City seemed to have alleviated those fears to a degree.
Since then, of course, results have dipped, some would say alarmingly. Albion took 22 points from their first ten games, a tally that saw them top the table. The next ten has seen them take just 12 points, a record that puts them 17th in the 10-game form table, and the chief reason has been the failure to score goals.
In an excellent statistical analysis in The Athletic early last week, Steve Madeley and Mark Carey highlighted how Albion’s numbers had changed over the season and the tenth game, the 4-0 win at Cardiff, looked to be something of a watershed. The difference between the rolling average of xG for and against was at its highest, while the rolling averages of pass completion percentage was at its lowest and the passes per defensive action (PPDA) number, a measure of pressing intensity was also at its best. All those statistics have returned from their extremes since then.
Average xG for is still consistently higher than the xG against, although Albion are not converting as well, while pass completion has increased markedly at the expense, to a degree, of the pressing intensity.
Statistics don’t show everything but these do match my own observations of how the tactics have altered. Early in the season, there was a definite approach to get the ball forward quickly and, while it was closer to percentage football than any football purist would like to see, it did have success although in the games against Derby, Millwall and Peterborough, it looked to be less effective as the opposition sat deep.
After those struggles, there looks to have been a conscious decision to pass the ball through midfield much more and, whether it was intentional or not, this did result in an overall drop in intensity. It was a less than subtle change in approach but, other than in the match against Bristol City, it hasn’t really had the desired effect. When we came up against teams that did not sit deep, such as Stoke City and Swansea City, the lack of pressing intensity played into the opposition’s hands and, coupled with some below par performances from individuals, the Baggies were second best and beaten.
For me, it is only in the last few matches that the intensity has started to come back, almost as if Ismaël has been looking to get back to his principles that had become diluted in recent weeks. At Blackpool, in particular, I felt Albion’s pressing was much better than it had been but they failed to capitalise on a number of decent situations when winning the ball back in the opposition half. I think that the tactics employed in the last few matches have been good, but that the players have ultimately made key mistakes in the final third either missing chances or failing to find the right final ball.
Tactical inflexibility
One of the main criticisms of Ismaël has been his inflexibility. I would counter that he has tweaked the approach by playing more passing football, but I accept that he is wedded to his 3-4-3 formation. However, it is not an inflexible formation and I think there have been multiple in-game variations. We’ve seen the left-sided centre back get forward, particularly when Townsend has played there, and the front three are often interchanging, switching wings and playing deeper.
The call for someone to play in the number ten role is moot, in my opinion, as the front three are given enough flexibility to to occupy that position when needed. While one of them may play centrally more often than not, it is not a fixed role, at least not with the personnel currently available. The other two generally move around, switch from one side to another and come deeper. They may not always do the right thing, but the point I am making is that I do not believe it to be a formation issue.
Having said that, the formation does not suit Grady Diangana because he is best employed very wide. Grady is at his best with chalk on his boots, able to attack an isolated full back – he is too easily crowded out when receiving the ball more centrally. The issue with Ismaël’s formation is that the width is provided by the wing backs, and he doesn’t have the defensive ability to perform that role, so he inevitably plays more centrally and struggles. I was calling for Grady to get more game time earlier in the season but, now that he has, I understand why he was being used sparingly. He is trying to adapt, and I have seen signs of him becoming stronger on the ball, but he is not there yet.
Next to the call to play a back four rather than a back three. Under Slaven Bilić, Albion played a back four with attacking full backs but, more often than not, it was only one of the full backs that attacked at any one time – there were always three defensive players. Ismaël is effectively doing the same thing and, were he to switch to a back four, the ultimate difference would be to restrict one of the wing backs and bring in a different midfielder at the expense of a central defender. The centre backs offer both aerial protection and an aerial attacking threat on set pieces, and I do not accept that a switch to a back four is inherently a more attacking line up.
Underdog football
A final word on tactics is to address the accusation that Val-ball is essentially “underdog footballâ€. In some circumstances, it undoubtedly is, but given our desire to play in the Premier League, is that a bad thing? Despite a late season wobble, Albion were promoted under Bilić playing passing attacking football but, after being promoted, it was clear that the Croat’s brand of football was not going to keep them up without a massive investment in better players. It was the same under Tony Mowbray in the 2008/09 season. I would much prefer to see Albion play passing football but the reality of the club’s current situation is that a more pragmatic approach is required. It was only the introduction of a more pragmatic style under Roy Hodgson that Albion were able to bridge the gap and become an “established†Premier League team, that and some excellent work in the transfer market.
When I look at what Ismaël is trying to put in place, I see a system that could adapt better to the demands of the top flight, albeit there would need to be personnel changes to make it work. As we found out against Arsenal in the Carabao Cup, the high line is the most dangerous element of the system that would need to be tweaked, but the general principle of high intensity and high pressing is a solid base to start from.
The other point to note is that you don’t need world beaters to implement a disciplined approach such as Val-ball – you need the right type of players, and Albion don’t have enough of those even at this level, but such players should be within the grasp of a club such as ours. Much as it pains me to say so, we have to look at the likes of Burnley as a model if we want to stay in the Premier League for more than a season or two.
While there are no guarantees, I think that Ismaël’s philosophy has more chance of success in the top flight than a pure passing style for a club of Albion’s resources. It would still be a tough ask, but a firm footballing philosophy built on solid foundations seems like a better approach than lurching from one head coach to another with completely different styles as the club has done in recent years.
Dressing room unrest
Moving away from tactics and onto the rumours of dressing room unrest. Rumours are just that at the moment, and if the dressing room was happy when the team was on a run of four without a win, I would be concerned.
The one fact we can reference is that Robert Snodgrass has not been involved in the last three games having started the previous four. Val has refused to comment on why and one journalist has reported that Snodgrass has been told he can leave. With both Molumby and Livermore suspended for the trip to Coventry on Saturday, I guess we will get some further insight when the team is announced.
Other than that, however, there have been some loose suggestions that some players are upset but I certainly don’t see a lack of effort on the field that would point to a problem, so until such time as I do, I will treat the rumours as just rumours.
Summary
In summary, I believe that the Valérien Ismaël project is a work in progress but the tactical set up of the team is not as inflexible and one dimensional as some commentators and fans believe. Hugill is not good enough, but there’s not much we can do about that until January, but had Robinson, Grant and Phillips performed better in recent weeks, we would not be on a run of four winless games and the current “crisis talk†would be much muted.
There will always be some fans who will not like what Ismaël is trying to do, and it’s unlikely they would be happy if we were five points clear at the top, but for the majority, an upturn in results will be enough. Obviously, if that doesn’t happen soon, the discontent will grow and the club may feel forced to act, or they may not if they still believe in their project.
At this stage, I don’t think the team is far away from turning their current run around, and the confidence of one victory will inevitably grow. I also believe Val deserves the January window, with appropriate support, to bring in one or two more players not least a striker worthy of the name.
Ismaël may well still get sacked, and some will rejoice, but it would leave the club significantly poorer and no further forward than they were when Bilić was appointed. We’d all like new owners but that situation is not going to change anytime soon; in the meantime, the club needs a medium-to-long term plan and a vestige of stability. Ismaël is at the heart of what could be a successful plan if given time – is it really time to abandon that?
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We create lots of poor quality opportunities. The numbers make that clear. We seem to take the first shooting opportunity rather than being slightly more patient and getting an easier goal. How many shots have we had where it's basically a tap in at the back post? Not many in recent weeks!
Not all shots are created equally!
There have been too many overhit crosses of late, including along the ground, otherwise you might have seen a few tap-ins! It can't even be blamed on one player in particular, they all seem to take it in turns to do it. Hopefully the work that's being done on our attacking play this week will improve that.
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“Time For a Reality Check At Albionâ€
A decent article found in the link below
https://brummieroadender.com/baggies-comment/time-****-at-albion/
That's from 2015, did you post the right link?
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That's from 2015, did you post the right link?
For some reason the link keeps defaulting to the 2015 article, so I’ve pasted the article in the original post above.
Thank you for letting me know 👍
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The players have lost faith in the manager and the system and are going through the motions at very best, you cant get rid of the players as they are on huge wages that clubs wont pay or they are bobbins and nobody wants them so the players arent going anywhere which leaves only one solution to try and save the season and that unfortunately is that. I just hope they do it soon so any incumbent has a say in any transfer business no matter how little that might be.
I absolutely hate the prem anyway so what do I care!
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The players have lost faith in the manager and the system and are going through the motions at very best, you cant get rid of the players as they are on huge wages that clubs wont pay or they are bobbins and nobody wants them so the players arent going anywhere which leaves only one solution to try and save the season and that unfortunately is that. I just hope they do it soon so any incumbent has a say in any transfer business no matter how little that might be.
I absolutely hate the prem anyway so what do I care!
Can’t say I’m a huge fan of Ismail at the moment but at the same time what do we do? Get a manager in every 15 games see if the players actually fancy playing for him? Or shall we just give the players the job of choosing a manager that they can be bothered to play for?
Them lot are worse than the manager and need to pull their finger out whether they like him or not
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Sometimes we have to ask what is best for the club ?
Personally I would hate to see this team promoted this season. The players are just not up to the standard of the premier league and there is no way that we will get any decent players in to help that situation. That's because the owner will refuse to spend any money for better players and also we will not attract any decent players. maybe some players who have a couple of years left before retirement.
We need to take this time to build a team to compete in the premier. Last season was a total embarrassment when we were getting battered 5 every other game.
Any money we get from promotion will go straight to Lai while we are left watching other teams increase their goal difference.
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Sometimes we have to ask what is best for the club ?
Personally I would hate to see this team promoted this season. The players are just not up to the standard of the premier league and there is no way that we will get any decent players in to help that situation. That's because the owner will refuse to spend any money for better players and also we will not attract any decent players. maybe some players who have a couple of years left before retirement.
We need to take this time to build a team to compete in the premier. Last season was a total embarrassment when we were getting battered 5 every other game.
Any money we get from promotion will go straight to Lai while we are left watching other teams increase their goal difference.
What's best for the club is that we are in the PL as much as we can be.
Primarily it gives us maximum opportunity to get Lai out
Secondly it gives us more money to gradually improve the squad bit by bit. We are back to yo-yo club status now since Lai took over.
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WEST BROM: SILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN – STATE OF THE BAGGIES
Another decent article and worth a read imo
https://www.otbfootball.net/west-brom-silence-is-not-golden-state-of-the-baggies/
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What's best for the club is that we are in the PL as much as we can be.
Primarily it gives us maximum opportunity to get Lai out
Secondly it gives us more money to gradually improve the squad bit by bit. We are back to yo-yo club status now since Lai took over.
The problem with what you have said is that it won't get Lai out because if the club has more money coming in why would he give that up and we all know he paid over the odds for the club so no one will come in and give him what he paid for the club.
Following on from that the last time when we were in the premier we didn't improve the squad. All we did was pay over the odds for 2 players who are not exactly setting the Championship alight ! Promoted teams will never attract top players, even if they have the money because its the expectation of what the club can achieve. This is something Newcastle will find out.
For me I don't enjoy being a Yo Yo club.
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The problem with what you have said is that it won't get Lai out because if the club has more money coming in why would he give that up and we all know he paid over the odds for the club so no one will come in and give him what he paid for the club.
Following on from that the last time when we were in the premier we didn't improve the squad. All we did was pay over the odds for 2 players who are not exactly setting the Championship alight ! Promoted teams will never attract top players, even if they have the money because its the expectation of what the club can achieve. This is something Newcastle will find out.
For me I don't enjoy being a Yo Yo club.
He wants out of the club. It's well documented. He just wants most of his money back. He's out of his depth and knows he won't make a penny from this club.
The Bilic/Dowling tit for tat stuff was abysmal yes. No one is saying we will attract top players.
I am saying we need to go up, improve, come down, improve, go up and look at staying up realistically.
No one enjoys being a yo-yo club but it's better than being EFL garbage. It's also irrelevant what any of us enjoy individually against the long term future of the club.
If you don't like it then don't go, go back when you do. That's what i'm doing currently myself.
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The problem with what you have said is that it won't get Lai out because if the club has more money coming in why would he give that up and we all know he paid over the odds for the club so no one will come in and give him what he paid for the club.
Following on from that the last time when we were in the premier we didn't improve the squad. All we did was pay over the odds for 2 players who are not exactly setting the Championship alight ! Promoted teams will never attract top players, even if they have the money because its the expectation of what the club can achieve. This is something Newcastle will find out.
For me I don't enjoy being a Yo Yo club.
So would you rather a further reduction of resources and a potential steady drop through the divisions?
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The problem with what you have said is that it won't get Lai out because if the club has more money coming in why would he give that up and we all know he paid over the odds for the club so no one will come in and give him what he paid for the club.
Following on from that the last time when we were in the premier we didn't improve the squad. All we did was pay over the odds for 2 players who are not exactly setting the Championship alight ! Promoted teams will never attract top players, even if they have the money because its the expectation of what the club can achieve. This is something Newcastle will find out.
For me I don't enjoy being a Yo Yo club.
If going up is no good and yo-yoing is no good, what's the alternative?
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If going up is no good and yo-yoing is no good, what's the alternative?
Yes go up but go up when you know when you can realistically compete.
So do that you have either got to build a good side in the championship which will take more than one season or if you do get promoted spend big and if you spend big you need spend in excess of £100 million and we know thats not going to happen.
We spent over £30 million last time which we have now found out was a waste of money.
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Yes go up but go up when you know when you can realistically compete.
So do that you have either got to build a good side in the championship which will take more than one season or if you do get promoted spend big and if you spend big you need spend in excess of £100 million and we know thats not going to happen.
We spent over £30 million last time which we have now found out was a waste of money.
We don't decide when we can realistically compete. It happens through planning and small stage improvement.
5 years of yo-yo'ing between EFL or PL or 5 years of being EFL, which will give us the most resources to move forward?
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Yes go up but go up when you know when you can realistically compete.
So do that you have either got to build a good side in the championship which will take more than one season or if you do get promoted spend big and if you spend big you need spend in excess of £100 million and we know thats not going to happen.
We spent over £30 million last time which we have now found out was a waste of money.
Are you advocating that we deliberately stay down?
Even £100m would nowhere near guarantee staying up, look at what Villa spent and only stayed up by default.
Football is a lottery for clubs with our finances, we have to try and maximise every situation, however, we also have to act quickly when things go wrong. We don't have the money to invest in a long term project that has no guarantee of success. That's why we live season to season and change managers at the drop of a hat.
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Yo yo ing is going to be even less attractive if/when Parry gets his way and parachute payments are removed/ amended. It will be harder to keep decent players , harder still to build for the Prem in the EFL .
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Yes go up but go up when you know when you can realistically compete.
So do that you have either got to build a good side in the championship which will take more than one season or if you do get promoted spend big and if you spend big you need spend in excess of £100 million and we know thats not going to happen.
We spent over £30 million last time which we have now found out was a waste of money.
I'm not sure you can pick and choose when to be promoted and what measure determines "realistically compete"?
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Thanks for posting that time for a reality check article AF.
It was a good read and pretty much sums up how I feel.
Sadly the 'Val out' brigade seem to be better at shouting than the rest of us.
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I'm not sure you can pick and choose when to be promoted and what measure determines "realistically compete"?
Realistically competing means not getting battered every other match by 5 goals, not being on course to let in 100 goals in a season. I know I didn't enjoy watching that and yes you can choose when to get promoted.
If you start a plan of action of developing young players into a team and merge them with good division 1 players and give yourself 2 seasons to build that team, then if you win promotion you have built a good side to hopefully compete.
I don't know if you have noticed but each year we get relegated we end up having a weaker team each time.
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Realistically competing means not getting battered every other match by 5 goals, not being on course to let in 100 goals in a season. I know I didn't enjoy watching that and yes you can choose when to get promoted.
If you start a plan of action of developing young players into a team and merge them with good division 1 players and give yourself 2 seasons to build that team, then if you win promotion you have built a good side to hopefully compete.
I don't know if you have noticed but each year we get relegated we end up having a weaker team each time.
That's because Lai is clueless. Get him gone and we have a chance of moving on.
We GENERALLY improved year under year with Peace, on tight budgets as well.
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Realistically competing means not getting battered every other match by 5 goals, not being on course to let in 100 goals in a season. I know I didn't enjoy watching that and yes you can choose when to get promoted.
If you start a plan of action of developing young players into a team and merge them with good division 1 players and give yourself 2 seasons to build that team, then if you win promotion you have built a good side to hopefully compete.
I don't know if you have noticed but each year we get relegated we end up having a weaker team each time.
Sorry but that's just not realistic. To many "ifs" and "hopes" for it to be a genuine plan.
Also, any young player that we, successfully, develop is going to become instantly attractive to teams with more cash, whether we win promotion or not. Even if by some miracle, we did manage to go up, and keep this team of wonderkids, there's still every chance that they would get battered 5-0 every other match and concede 100 goals.
The Prem is about money, nothing else, so unless we suddenly get rich we will never truly compete. Yes, if we generate the perfect storm like you suggest, we may stay up, but we would always lose more than we win and eventually drop again.
This is why a long term plan is a fantasy, we live season to season and have to do the best with the resources we have and that means, whether we have a team capable of competing or not, promotion is an absolute priority. Even if it's just to fill the coffers enough to deal with the next relegation, when yes, we may be weaker but, to date, we have never been weak enough to finish outside the top 6 in the Champ.
As much as we want to protest all this against Lai, the game itself is our biggest enemy.
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Sometimes we have to ask what is best for the club ?
Personally I would hate to see this team promoted this season. The players are just not up to the standard of the premier league and there is no way that we will get any decent players in to help that situation. That's because the owner will refuse to spend any money for better players and also we will not attract any decent players. maybe some players who have a couple of years left before retirement.
We need to take this time to build a team to compete in the premier. Last season was a total embarrassment when we were getting battered 5 every other game.
Any money we get from promotion will go straight to Lai while we are left watching other teams increase their goal difference.
I assume you're referring to media income.
That would be paid into WBAFC account.
I'd be interested to know how a major shareholder (who isn't employed by WBAFC) gets hold of that money.
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WEST BROM: SILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN – STATE OF THE BAGGIES
Another decent article and worth a read imo
https://www.otbfootball.net/west-brom-silence-is-not-golden-state-of-the-baggies/
That too is a very interesting read. keep em coming!!
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I’m really not a fan, for me he’s massively out of his depth at Albion but I agree he should get the Jan window.
I fear a decent beating at Cov and he’ll be gone mind.
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I assume you're referring to media income.
That would be paid into WBAFC account.
I'd be interested to know how a major shareholder (who isn't employed by WBAFC) gets hold of that money.
I can assure you that is a very easy procedure today.
I did some contract accounting work for a very profitable company that was owned by an australian company a few years ago. At the end of each tax year the company made no profit. It was all transferred back to Australia , legitimately. And those accounts were audited by a professional firm of accountants.
You will be surprised what can be achieved by Accountants who know there way around all the legislation and rules.
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Yo yo ing is going to be even less attractive if/when Parry gets his way and parachute payments are removed/ amended. It will be harder to keep decent players , harder still to build for the Prem in the EFL .
I fear if that day ever arrives that the Premiership will become a virtual stand alone League. With FFP not allowing rich owners to spend how can any Championship team expect to survive without some form of parachute payment. It will result in more clubs going bankrupt more quickly. There will be no point in being promoted, as you daren't pay Premiership wages when you are virtually guaranteed to be relegated. You couldn't even follow our example of halving players wages, as that would still be too much. SKY have a lot to answer for with our national game.
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I fear if that day ever arrives that the Premiership will become a virtual stand alone League. With FFP not allowing rich owners to spend how can any Championship team expect to survive without some form of parachute payment. It will result in more clubs going bankrupt more quickly. There will be no point in being promoted, as you daren't pay Premiership wages when you are virtually guaranteed to be relegated. You couldn't even follow our example of halving players wages, as that would still be too much. SKY have a lot to answer for with our national game.
It will become a closed shop no self financing club can dare try and be part of. Only clubs with rich owners ready to pump money into the team need apply. The disdain with which Norwich's start was eceived this year in comparison to the hyperbole of the incoming oil/blood money at Newcastle tells you we are not far off that anyway.
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I can assure you that is a very easy procedure today.
I did some contract accounting work for a very profitable company that was owned by an australian company a few years ago. At the end of each tax year the company made no profit. It was all transferred back to Australia , legitimately. And those accounts were audited by a professional firm of accountants.
You will be surprised what can be achieved by Accountants who know there way around all the legislation and rules.
Your illustration is hiving off profits from an operating company to an umbrella company.
Any profits WBAFC make are in the order of £1 to 2 million.
It's just not possible to hive off operating income, HMRC would be all over it.
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Thanks for posting that time for a reality check article AF.
It was a good read and pretty much sums up how I feel.
Sadly the 'Val out' brigade seem to be better at shouting than the rest of us.
Seconded!
Sound common sense article AF
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Seconded!
Sound common sense article AF
Agreed, thanks Dave ;)
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Your illustration is hiving off profits from an operating company to an umbrella company.
Any profits WBAFC make are in the order of £1 to 2 million.
It's just not possible to hive off operating income, HMRC would be all over it.
You are probably not aware of the creative accounting methods available today.
How do you think Amazon, starbucks etc get away with paying a lot less tax than they should do?
This is a discussion that could go on for a long time but feel rest assured Mr Lai will find ways of getting his money.
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It will become a closed shop no self financing club can dare try and be part of. Only clubs with rich owners ready to pump money into the team need apply. The disdain with which Norwich's start was eceived this year in comparison to the hyperbole of the incoming oil/blood money at Newcastle tells you we are not far off that anyway.
I don't know about a closed shop but I can see the premier league being reduced to 10 clubs and then all the other leagues below being adjusted to 20 clubs per league. Which would put us in the 2nd league which would probably suit us better.
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Agreed, thanks Dave ;)
Your welcome Kev :-[
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I don't know about a closed shop but I can see the premier league being reduced to 10 clubs and then all the other leagues below being adjusted to 20 clubs per league. Which would put us in the 2nd league which would probably suit us better.
I think it will go this way over the next decade, maybe with promotion/relegation playoffs
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You are probably not aware of the creative accounting methods available today.
How do you think Amazon, starbucks etc get away with paying a lot less tax than they should do?
This is a discussion that could go on for a long time but feel rest assured Mr Lai will find ways of getting his money.
Correct - not to mention that the club was in talks last January to sell our star player with most of the transfer fee being kept off the books and paid owner to owner!
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Correct - not to mention that the club was in talks last January to sell our star player with most of the transfer fee being kept off the books and paid owner to owner!
That's a possible scenario, but the OP claimed that Lai would pocket media income, it's just not possible for a shareholder to take income out of a business. The companies he referred to are accused of tax avoidance on profits.
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January will make or break Val for me. The board should either back him with the recruits he wants lined up and ready to join us as soon as the window opens (yeah right - we all know that’s not the way we do business) or accept they’ll be replacing him shortly in 2022. The halfway house of insisting he works with what we’ve got will not get us the promotion that finances demand or please us supporters.
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That's a possible scenario, but the OP claimed that Lai would pocket media income, it's just not possible for a shareholder to take income out of a business. The companies he referred to are accused of tax avoidance on profits.
You can accuse anyone of anything but if there was a real case of tax avoidance don't you think it would have ended up in court !
Like I said before I have come across many scenarios where UK profits are transferred to overseas owners and no wrong doing was ever targeted at the companies.
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Correct - not to mention that the club was in talks last January to sell our star player with most of the transfer fee being kept off the books and paid owner to owner!
There is absolutely no evidence to support this of course.
Back to Val and the forthcoming transfer window is a big one, not for him, but for the board. We will see their true colours come January.
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You can accuse anyone of anything but if there was a real case of tax avoidance don't you think it would have ended up in court !
Like I said before I have come across many scenarios where UK profits are transferred to overseas owners and no wrong doing was ever targeted at the companies.
PROFITS not income.
He can't do anything with the Income from media.
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There is absolutely no evidence to support this of course.
Back to Val and the forthcoming transfer window is a big one, not for him, but for the board. We will see their true colours come January.
I would say both mate, if he's still around. In the absence of a DoF then he needs to be very clear about the type of players he needs.
I find it hard to believe that he didn't sanction the likes of Hugill and Reach so that is on all of them.
HE needs to get to grips with:
a) Exactly how he wants to play
b) Who needs to be replaced
c) What kids are actually "pushing" and give them a chance or loan them out.
d) What are the priority areas
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I would say both mate, if he's still around. In the absence of a DoF then he needs to be very clear about the type of players he needs.
I find it hard to believe that he didn't sanction the likes of Hugill and Reach so that is on all of them.
HE needs to get to grips with:
a) Exactly how he wants to play
b) Who needs to be replaced
c) What kids are actually "pushing" and give them a chance or loan them out.
d) What are the priority areas
IMO, if we're looking for a "magic bullet" centre forward, we're going to be disappointed.
We paid a lot of money for Rondon & Brown Ideye & neither were prolific, I believe Hugill was worth the risk, & still might be, think I'd be tempted to give the lad Cleary a chance though.
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IMO, if we're looking for a "magic bullet" centre forward, we're going to be disappointed.
We paid a lot of money for Rondon & Brown Ideye & neither were prolific, I believe Hugill was worth the risk, & still might be, think I'd be tempted to give the lad Cleary a chance though.
I was told that he couldn't play as he doesn't have a professional contract. How true that is I'm not sure.
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I was told that he couldn't play as he doesn't have a professional contract. How true that is I'm not sure.
Unless there has been a rule change then I doubt it. Palace have played 15 year olds in the past. It could however be that he WONT sign a contract which is the reason for him not playing,but I'd say that's a mistake as well. Play him, if he leaves we just hope for money to come in afterwards.
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I would say both mate, if he's still around. In the absence of a DoF then he needs to be very clear about the type of players he needs.
I find it hard to believe that he didn't sanction the likes of Hugill and Reach so that is on all of them.
HE needs to get to grips with:
a) Exactly how he wants to play
b) Who needs to be replaced
c) What kids are actually "pushing" and give them a chance or loan them out.
d) What are the priority areas
Agreed, I would struggle to believe that he did not agree to any of the players who joined us in the summer, so his judgement is slightly questionable at present. Having said that, if he had target A, but due to finances we got target D [or whoever was in the bargain bucket at the time] then the board cannot be surprised at the outcome.
I fully understand that we will not be spending £10m on a player, but surely we could have struck a deal for Dike [for example] with installed payments. Its great that as a club the books virtually balance, but surely you have to 'speculate to accumulate' to get the the position Mr Lai wants to be in.
So, a big window for both the board and VI - equally.
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I’ve got a couple of concerns with coach
for one his rigid 343 formation and his stubborn refusal to change even swapping wingers during games is a big no no.
Two his insistence on using mostly the same old faces, where are the younger players he promised to blood at start of season?
Three under his stewardship only Johnston and Townsend have kept their performances to a suitable standard expected.
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I’ve got a couple of concerns with coach
for one his rigid 343 formation and his stubborn refusal to change even swapping wingers during games is a big no no.
Two his insistence on using mostly the same old faces, where are the younger players he promised to blood at start of season?
Three under his stewardship only Johnston and Townsend have kept their performances to a suitable standard expected.
The front three swap around on a fairly frequent basis during games depending on the opposition. Grant pulls into the middle with the central striker pulling left or dropping. Robinson in particular tends to flit around and Diangana has popped up both centrally and on the left when starting on the right.
The wider starting players also spend time narrower on the opposition's midfield block looking to snap up spare balls as opposed to occupying wide positions throughout leaving our central player isolated at times.The notion our front players adhere to a rigid three isn't even a thing. They're not fixed.
TGH in particular should have had more game time in place of Furlong and I think Fellows is close to inclusion. Tulloch's only just coming back from injury and while knocking on the door Cleary's probably looking at time on the bench. I think we should consider game time for Windsor too.
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The front three swap around on a fairly frequent basis during games depending on the opposition. Grant pulls into the middle with the central striker pulling left or dropping. Robinson in particular tends to flit around and Diangana has popped up both centrally and on the left when starting on the right.
The wider starting players also spend time narrower on the opposition's midfield block looking to snap up spare balls as opposed to occupying wide positions throughout leaving our central player isolated at times.The notion our front players adhere to a rigid three isn't even a thing. They're not fixed.
TGH in particular should have had more game time in place of Furlong and I think Fellows is close to inclusion. Tulloch's only just coming back from injury and while knocking on the door Cleary's probably looking at time on the bench. I think we should consider game time for Windsor too.
Tulloch will go on loan next month. Cleary isn't close and Windsor no chance whatsoever. He will be released in the summer along with Soule and others.
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Tulloch will go on loan next month. Cleary isn't close and Windsor no chance whatsoever. He will be released in the summer along with Soule and others.
Read what you wrote on the other thread just. Fully acknowledge what you say about Cleary and his stage of development but five or ten minutes from the end of a game and he could spring a surprise. Same with Windsor.
Pity Soule never really seemed to kick on as he's a decent technician. Slightly built but that could change. Shame he's had so many injuries. Taylor's got all the tools apart from a turn of speed and the strength to go with his general size. For now.
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Read what you wrote on the other thread just. Fully acknowledge what you say about Cleary and his stage of development but five or ten minutes from the end of a game and he could spring a surprise. Same with Windsor.
Pity Soule never really seemed to kick on as he's a decent technician. Slightly built but that could change. Shame he's had so many injuries. Taylor's got all the tools apart from a turn of speed and the strength to go with his general size. For now.
Taylor is a huge unit, he must be 6 foot 4 at the very least but he hasn't filled into his frame fully yet so he doesn't have his man strength or his man speed. Hopefully they will come as he really is a baby for a CH. If I were Caleb I'd be putting weights on my back and sprinting over thirty yards over and over again till I get that edge.
Soule is 21 now, that is no longer a kid for a forward and is not progressing at all.
Windsor seems to have hit a ceiling as well. He's 20 and not even scoring at a reasonable rate for the U23's.
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Neither did Michael Forrs from memory. Didn't look too shabby at Brentford last season during their promotion push.
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Agreed, I would struggle to believe that he did not agree to any of the players who joined us in the summer, so his judgement is slightly questionable at present. Having said that, if he had target A, but due to finances we got target D [or whoever was in the bargain bucket at the time] then the board cannot be surprised at the outcome.
I fully understand that we will not be spending £10m on a player, but surely we could have struck a deal for Dike [for example] with installed payments. Its great that as a club the books virtually balance, but surely you have to 'speculate to accumulate' to get the the position Mr Lai wants to be in.
So, a big window for both the board and VI - equally.
It was obvious that Mowatt was Val's pick but would not have arrived alongside him if a fee had been involved. We pretty much got a manager and CM for our £2 million compo....decent value.
After that I just can't believe that Val had a wish list of players scribbled down on a piece of paper and they included Huggybear, Reach and Molomby. Infact, if he had a wishlist would it really have been made up of freebies and loans?
These signings scream of players that have been on the radar of our recruitment team as no outlay (Yes I know there is a loan fee and wages) options offered to the manager. Clarke was a no brainer and a mainstay for Derby over two seasons. Hugil' s reputation suggested he could do a job. Reach and Molomby squad fillers with potential to add something.
I'm sure Val has passed a present list onto Santa......and I'm guessing that Santa will be shopping on eBay right now for some low cost alternatives.
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Neither did Michael Forrs from memory. Didn't look too shabby at Brentford last season during their promotion push.
He's never been a first choice starter and isn't in the picture now really. In any case every rule ever written has an exception. The chances of Soule or Windsor making Championship strikers I'd suggest are very low.
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He's never been a first choice starter and isn't in the picture now really. In any case every rule ever written has an exception. The chances of Soule or Windsor making Championship strikers I'd suggest are very low.
Yep, did well in league one for AFC Wimbledon but hasn't got into double figures for Brentford and well down the pecking order in the PL.
It's revealing to see that Edwards has become a bench option for Ipswich rather than first 11. I thought he had the potential to be a real success at that level.
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It was obvious that Mowatt was Val's pick but would not have arrived alongside him if a fee had been involved. We pretty much got a manager and CM for our £2 million compo....decent value.
After that I just can't believe that Val had a wish list of players scribbled down on a piece of paper and they included Huggybear, Reach and Molomby. Infact, if he had a wishlist would it really have been made up of freebies and loans?
These signings scream of players that have been on the radar of our recruitment team as no outlay (Yes I know there is a loan fee and wages) options offered to the manager. Clarke was a no brainer and a mainstay for Derby over two seasons. Hugil' s reputation suggested he could do a job. Reach and Molomby squad fillers with potential to add something.
I'm sure Val has passed a present list onto Santa......and I'm guessing that Santa will be shopping on eBay right now for some low cost alternatives.
I've no way of knowing what went on in the interviews & contract discussions between VI & Ken, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that budgets & transfer fee policies were discussed.
The fact that VI then went on to accept the job suggests that he was comfortable.
I could then visualise a discussion between VI & Ian Pearce, where Pearce discloses a list of players we have identified who meet the criteria.
I would imagine some of those players would also have been on VI's list.
I think it's fair to assume that, at the outset, VI was comfortable with the squad.
I also think you're correct in saying we're looking at low cost alternatives, probably with no transfer fees involved.
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The front three swap around on a fairly frequent basis during games depending on the opposition. Grant pulls into the middle with the central striker pulling left or dropping. Robinson in particular tends to flit around and Diangana has popped up both centrally and on the left when starting on the right.
The wider starting players also spend time narrower on the opposition's midfield block looking to snap up spare balls as opposed to occupying wide positions throughout leaving our central player isolated at times.The notion our front players adhere to a rigid three isn't even a thing. They're not fixed.
TGH in particular should have had more game time in place of Furlong and I think Fellows is close to inclusion. Tulloch's only just coming back from injury and while knocking on the door Cleary's probably looking at time on the bench. I think we should consider game time for Windsor too.
only time I’ve ever seen adjustments is when he substitutions two of the front three, Grant is always in his preferred position of wide on left coming inside to shoot with his favoured right foot. Only a couple of times have I seen Grady on his preferred left side and that is when He is a substitute for Grant or said player isn’t starting. I don’t see any of these players swapping wings during game.
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A concerning momentum is starting to develop behind the belief that Ismael might nor make Christmas. Lepkowski and Goldberg's pod suggested there were rumblings and a few of Madeley's aetcile headlines are sounding more and more along the lines of discussing if we need to make some big calls soon.
To give a manager a 4 year contract, sign barely any players and then sack him would for me be the final sign we are out of our depth as a club. We need this move to work, or atleast to give Ismael the backing to fail on his terms. I can't tell though if he is maybe falling out with more people behind the scenes than we realise.
How badly we need a win this Saturday - preferably with a shake up to the system as well.
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Yeah it was in the Athletic today. He's already approching his crossroads with the club. No strong discontent from our overlords yet but it is building Madeley said. At least they are paying attention this time.
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Huge day for Val tomorrow. A loss in front of 4500 travelling fans will really put the pressure on and the atmosphere could turn toxic.
Whether you think that is right or wrong, it is almost certain to happen if we get a bad result tomorrow and once that starts, I have rarely seen any coach turn it around.
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You are probably not aware of the creative accounting methods available today.
How do you think Amazon, starbucks etc get away with paying a lot less tax than they should do?
This is a discussion that could go on for a long time but feel rest assured Mr Lai will find ways of getting his money.
Amazon Starbucks put their HQs in low corporation tax countries; WBA International is incorporated in UK. Yunyi Goukai Sports Investment (Shanghai) Ltd - major shareholder - could charge high management charges but this would show up. Presumably the CCP takes its share of tax from the operating profits of that entity.
Perhaps you could enlighten us with how you think Guochan is siphoning money form the club.
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Huge day for Val tomorrow. A loss in front of 4500 travelling fans will really put the pressure on and the atmosphere could turn toxic.
Whether you think that is right or wrong, it is almost certain to happen if we get a bad result tomorrow and once that starts, I have rarely seen any coach turn it around.
Yes, a really pivotal weekend if we get turned over and later drop out of the Play Off places in addition to our current woeful form.
Ever the optimist pre match, I travelling there hoping we will click and get the win but, won't be happy if we don't 'turn up' like at Huddersfield, Stoke etc !
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A poor showing tomorrow and I think he is gone
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He needs a 'up for it 'performance from the off , fingers crossed for both a good showing and decent result .
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He needs a 'up for it 'performance from the off , fingers crossed for both a good showing and decent result .
Indeed, club needs a boost. Hopefully we can get one tomorrow.
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I think he’s gone if we lose tomorrow tbh
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I think he’s gone if we lose tomorrow tbh
What makes you think that? And who have we got lined up to replace him?
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I think he’s gone if we lose tomorrow tbh
Is my feeling as well. With Chris Lepkowski and particularly Steve Madeley saying that sources at the club are making noises about Val leaving, I think it's very possible.
I don't especially like Val and don't think he helps himself, but he's been dealt a poor hand and should never have been appointed if the club wouldn't/couldn't back him. This squad is never the right fit.
We've got a mish-mash of styles from players assembled by Pulis, Moore, Dowling and Bilic - many of whom have played and failed under all three managers (five if you include Pardew and Allardyce and you're Jake Livermore and Matt Phillips) - and are unwilling/unable to play the way Val wants, as uninspiring as the style of football may be.
It's getting towards the 'back him or sack him' stage. Club might decide they don't want to give him the £XX millions he needs/wants in Jan if they don't think he'll get us up. Is some logic to that, though doesn't say much for their ability to plan or run a football club after giving him a four year deal just five months ago.
Like most others on this forum, if Val is sacked, I've no faith in the succession plan.
All ifs/buts/maybes as the problems at the club run far deeper than Val.
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That's what worries me about VI. How did he think be could make this work?
We all know the players aren't the toughest mentally or physically to be fair.
Yes, the squad are in the top 3 overall in this league (CF aside) but his system is so rigid and extreme he needs about 3 decent players to make it work and there is no money forthcoming it seems.
We've all heard the 'targets have been identified for a successful window' line many times before and nothing ever happens there.
I think he took this job thinking the odds of him failing were very slim but it's not turned out that way. He's also exposed himself as a very shallow manager. One way of playing is laughable.
I just don't see how he stays here much longer unless they are actually going to back him and back him properly.
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I don't believe Lep or Madeley they don't know anything, pure conjecture
So we pay for Val to come to Albion, we give him a 4 year contract then sack him after less than 20 games, then pay him off
With the team in 4th place with a win tomorrow to go 3rd?
Are these guys serious and what do they know about running a business?
It's complete carp, let's get being the coach and let him do his job, OK?
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I can’t see how he makes the new year
Even if we do ok at cov it’ll be because of the enforced changes rather than any tactical genius moves.
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I can’t see how he makes the new year
Even if we do ok at cov it’ll be because of the enforced changes rather than any tactical genius moves.
We will see. I do not see him leaving any time soon.
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I don't believe Lep or Madeley they don't know anything, pure conjecture
So we pay for Val to come to Albion, we give him a 4 year contract then sack him after less than 20 games, then pay him off
With the team in 4th place with a win tomorrow to go 3rd?
Are these guys serious and what do they know about running a business?
It's complete carp, let's get being the coach and let him do his job, OK?
I agree with this post.
Any compensation payable to VI if we sack him is the money we could use towards a new striker in January.
We cannot be seen as a sackable club. We have probably got the worse record in the whole football league. So that is one fact that will put off potential appointments.
Each time we sack a manager and get a replacement, the replacement is always worse than the one we sacked.
Also remember VI was about 4th choice in the summer because potential managers were turning us down. To be honest we are not that attractive option. The current squad is just not good enough and we have an owner who is not prepared to spend any money.
So all those who want VI sacked just be careful of what you wish for !
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It's irrelevant how we are seen really. A sacking club? Who cares?
Of course i'd prefer NOT to have that tag as it's an indication of consistent appointment failures but aside from that what outsiders think is of no concern.
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I don't believe Lep or Madeley they don't know anything, pure conjecture
So we pay for Val to come to Albion, we give him a 4 year contract then sack him after less than 20 games, then pay him off
With the team in 4th place with a win tomorrow to go 3rd?
Are these guys serious and what do they know about running a business?
It's complete carp, let's get being the coach and let him do his job, OK?
Think there's more to it than conjecture.
SM is a professional journalist, so he will have a network of contacts (including agents etc). CL less so now, he lectures in journalism at UCE.
Agents & more so players will talk to their mates & guards will momentarily drop. As much as the club will want to keep things in house, leaks will occur.
There will always be dissenting voices in any business, it's whether or not the dissent is under control
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Just a polite reminder that we don't allow new managers to be discussed while we still have a manager in post. Please don't name replacements or ask for suggestions.
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Hey baggie John, I still think it's conjecture, this so called ITK journos,
Don't you think it's a bit strange that he is ITK re our coach but is never ITK re incoming players?
They don't know anymore than you or me until a deal is announced
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As a strange absence of recent comments on VI's thread, I'll give him credit for getting the team up for today's performance. The high press put Cov under constant pressure first half, and 2-0 a fair reflection of game at HT. We should have been 3 or 4 up if Robinson had a better left foot. Defence by and large did their job second half. Also very good choice for TGH in midfield. He used the ball well and Mowatt back at his best.
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Well done to Val and the lads, thought we put in a Professional team performance, little bug bear I have is the use of Grady on right which really limits his effectiveness for us. Don’t know why he doesn’t start Grant through middle with Robinson on right and Dianggana on left in his preferred position.
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Well done to Val and the lads, thought we put in a Professional team performance, little bug bear I have is the use of Grady on right which really limits his effectiveness for us. Don’t know why he doesn’t start Grant through middle with Robinson on right and Dianggana on left in his preferred position.
As a humble viewer, I would completely agree with you. However, the commentators on todays game reckoned that Diangana actually wants to play on the right (not that that means the manager has to do whatever he says). Just adding that for balance.
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As a humble viewer, I would completely agree with you. However, the commentators on todays game reckoned that Diangana actually wants to play on the right (not that that means the manager has to do whatever he says). Just adding that for balance.
if the player’s have that much say on team selection and positioning then Val has a big problem on his hands.
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As a strange absence of recent comments on VI's thread, I'll give him credit for getting the team up for today's performance.
Weird isn't it?! :D I guess those who, prior to the game, were advocating for him being sacked will keep their powder dry until our next bad result, and will then be back out in force again.
As someone who's happy for him to stay, I was actually disappointed that we weren't better going forward, after it had been the main focus in this week's training. We only had 10 attempts on goal which, ironically, must be close to our worst of the season.
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Weird isn't it?! :D I guess those who, prior to the game, were advocating for him being sacked will keep their powder dry until our next bad result, and will then be back out in force again.
As someone who's happy for him to stay, I was actually disappointed that we weren't better going forward, after it had been the main focus in this week's training. We only had 10 attempts on goal which, ironically, must be close to our worst of the season.
I hope not being a Albion fan and Admin on here ..Pulis and Robson were constant battles depending on results/perfornances .
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He needs a 'up for it 'performance from the off , fingers crossed for both a good showing and decent result .
Mostly got this , crossing still struggled and didn't think we showed enough 2nd half but a step in the right direction .
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It was better than it has been and it would have been easy for him to choose Reach in CM but he went for TGH and it worked so give him credit for that.
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He got his bit of luck today, the "hand of Kipre", let's see if he can get the squad up for Xmas
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Weird isn't it?! :D I guess those who, prior to the game, were advocating for him being sacked will keep their powder dry until our next bad result, and will then be back out in force again.
As someone who's happy for him to stay, I was actually disappointed that we weren't better going forward, after it had been the main focus in this week's training. We only had 10 attempts on goal which, ironically, must be close to our worst of the season.
One game changes nothing, yes its a win, an important one against a side around us but at the moment its still one game, how about we see how things go and hopefully we go on a decent run before we start having digs at other members?
Same applies to other side of the coin as well, plenty jump up and down after one defeat so how about we don't do the same after one win?
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One game changes nothing, yes its a win, an important one against a side around us but at the moment its still one game, how about we see how things go and hopefully we go on a decent run before we start having digs at other members?
Same applies to other side of the coin as well, plenty jump up and down after one defeat so how about we don't do the same after one win?
How about just living in the moment. None of us can affect a game, but we can sure as hell celebrate a victory. The next game is in the future. Grab the joy when can, and make it last. Today I’m happy. That’ll do me.
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Great result, good first half, average second half. Commentary was interesting re a striker in jan. They said we’re in talks with an unnamed club re what we believe to be a 15-20 goal a season striker. I imagine that’s gayle
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I don’t understand what sacking him would achieve, but I might be one of the few people who thinks his system could be both effective and good to watch with the right players.
We lost a lot of our best players in the summer and invested nothing in replacing them, despite the fact that we hired a manager with a completely different system to the last one. I don’t believe he took the job thinking he would have to work with this squad.
That we apparently have a board who think he should work wonders with what he has shows how far off we are from being a functional club.
My fear is that even if he is successful given time, it will be in spite of the hand he is dealt by the club rather than because of it.
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How about just living in the moment. None of us can affect a game, but we can sure as hell celebrate a victory. The next game is in the future. Grab the joy when can, and make it last. Today I’m happy. That’ll do me.
Don't see where I said anything about not celebrating a victory!! The post was more about having digs at other members so maybe you didn't read it properly or take it how it was meant.
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Is he 'Big'Val' again yet or do we have to get back in the automatic places for that?
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Is he 'Big'Val' again yet or do we have to get back in the automatic places for that?
12 points from 10 games before today. Probably needs to get back to around 2 points per game average…
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My target for big Val, who I want to stay is 50 by last game in December, we won't be far off, so keep it up lads
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My target for big Val, who I want to stay is 50 by last game in December, we won't be far off, so keep it up lads
I'll go along with that.
Don't think we have the finished product with Semi-Big Val and our squad but most of all I am sick of chopping and changing managers/ coaches.
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Probably the best game for a while. The press worked and Coventry could not pick their way through us. Was disappointed with the substitution of Hugil for Grady but I can’t criticize because the players looked up for it. VI put a decent game plan together.
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Probably the best game for a while. The press worked and Coventry could not pick their way through us. Was disappointed with the substitution of Hugil for Grady but I can’t criticize because the players looked up for it. VI put a decent game plan together.
I thought we played better against Forest and were a little fortunate to win today. Coventry caused us a lot of problems and the game was very open with a lack of quality in both boxes from both teams when it mattered.
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Probably the best game for a while. The press worked and Coventry could not pick their way through us. Was disappointed with the substitution of Hugil for Grady but I can’t criticize because the players looked up for it. VI put a decent game plan together.
Grady was injured.
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:) Think we have to give Val credit he put Hickman in who was outstanding. We probably should have won about 4-1 with the misses, cannot blame Val for this.
We are 3rd and on target for 50 points into the New Year . Only 2 wins behind top spot.
Cannot see why people are moaning and groaning.
Yes we need a striker but remember not much in the “kitty†will have to be a loan with a couple of players off the wages eg Hugill,Zohore and Snodders.
The plan is working.👍👍👍
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I have to say, I was there and so had the bigger picture, that the press was back in evidence and working quite well in the first half and had Coventry rocking back on their heels. Second half less so but we won, even with the introduction of Hugil who gave their monster at the back plenty to think about
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I have to say, I was there and so had the bigger picture, that the press was back in evidence and working quite well in the first half and had Coventry rocking back on their heels. Second half less so but we won, even with the introduction of Hugil who gave their monster at the back plenty to think about
Yes, me too Frank, I had a great viewpoint from up in the Gods and as we were playing towards the fans in first half it was an ideal spot from which to witness the press which was very evident and led to many opportunities in the first half. Much better.
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The first half yesterday was much better and with movement off the ball it presents opportunity to stretch the opposition and play in behind them. The first goal is what I want to see more of.
The second half was poor though - we didn’t keep possession at all well and relied on our defensive resilience which has been very good all season.
One win doesn’t resolve my concerns but it would be nice for this to be a confident boost to the side as we head into the festive period. We need to back up yesterday with a string of results now.
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VI has made further amendment today on his 'Livermore will start every game if fit'
He's now saying he said it wrong. Livemore will start IF fit AND in form which is better.
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What do you class as fit? He's never been the best athlete and is now 32 yrs old.
You could say he was in form in about the first 7 games when we he'd had a good pre season and the press was in good working order. He hasn't been able to maintain the press since.
Gardner-Hickman and Molumby can provide more energy and even someone like Ajayi can provide rapid closing down and hard running in the last 20 mins of matches.
It should be a long way back from Livermore from here and really he should be gone in about 6 months from now.
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He's probably realised he's messed up and this is his way of clawing it back. Would hope so anyway.
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What do you class as fit? He's never been the best athlete and is now 32 yrs old.
You could say he was in form in about the first 7 games when we he'd had a good pre season and the press was in good working order. He hasn't been able to maintain the press since.
Gardner-Hickman and Molumby can provide more energy and even someone like Ajayi can provide rapid closing down and hard running in the last 20 mins of matches.
It should be a long way back from Livermore from here and really he should be gone in about 6 months from now.
He will almost certainly be given a new deal before the end of the season.
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We beat Coventry 2-1 and it would probably been 6 nil if he hadn't lost the dressing room.
Seriously it was positive that Gardner Hickman started and we had 3 young players on the bench.
Didn't Barnsley have a team with average age of 23 with Mowatt as the senior player?
Hopefully we will move towards this as the season progresses.
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He will almost certainly be given a new deal before the end of the season.
I doubt he will and nor should he be. Regardless of where we end the season we need to be looking at better and younger players for when we reach the Premier league. Snodgrass should be gone too.
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I doubt he will and nor should he be. Regardless of where we end the season we need to be looking at better and younger players for when we reach the Premier league. Snodgrass should be gone too.
I agree and hope that you are right. However this is Albion and a 3 year deal for Phillips not long ago suggests we'll keep him on. Snodgrass I think will be allowed to leave on a free in Jan if there are any takers.
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I had the privilege of listening to Ismael speak tonight. We are in good hands.
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He said he needs 3 more transfer windows to build a team in his image. Good luck with that pal (money wise)
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I had the privilege of listening to Ismael speak tonight. We are in good hands.
Where was that mate and what convinced you?
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Where was that mate and what convinced you?
there was a closed Q&A event last night, was recorded and will be available online later.
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I had the privilege of listening to Ismael speak tonight. We are in good hands.
Thats nice to hear. I for one, have certainly not given up on him. He has not been dealt a good hand in terms of available funds for transfers and has us well in the hunt at the top end of the league.
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He said he needs 3 more transfer windows to build a team in his image. Good luck with that pal (money wise)
And patience wise (fans and board), Cliche alert "its a results driven business"
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And patience wise (fans and board), Cliche alert "its a results driven business"
I want to know where he's signing all these players from with less and less money each window. Must have been reassured by the board but we know their word is worthless.
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I want to know where he's signing all these players from with less and less money each window. Must have been reassured by the board but we know their word is worthless.
To be fair, they never promised to spend a lot of money. They said that the club should be self-sustaining. If the parachute payments are stopped then the money circulating around the Championship will reduce. I would think that give an advantage to those clubs that produce (and sell some of ) their own players. For the health of Albion and the national game that would be a good thing
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To be fair, they never promised to spend a lot of money. They said that the club should be self-sustaining. If the parachute payments are stopped then the money circulating around the Championship will reduce. I would think that give an advantage to those clubs that produce (and sell some of ) their own players. For the health of Albion and the national game that would be a good thing
Club should be self-sustaining but they didn't say they were going to run into the ground through carelessness. Which takes me back to where is the money coming from for VI?
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Club should be self-sustaining but they didn't say they were going to run into the ground through carelessness. Which takes me back to where is the money coming from for VI?
We were pretty much told any monies for transfers had been put in a rainy day fund to cover wages for our top earners should we fail to go up. Maybe they are hoping to bin a few of those top earners or just not to pay them!! Getting Snodders, Zohore and Hugil off the wage bill will help for starters.
I also think Val may be reflecting on sone of the business that was done at Barnsley. For example Barnsley snaffled up Mowatt for £600k and both Kiefer Moore and Woodrow (who has made it clear he wants to leave Barnsley btw) for about £700k. Neither are top end players but might be a decent fit and compare that to £4-8m? for Zohore, £15m for Grant ,£12m for Grady and the swap value of £6m for Robbo. We have also seen that there is still value out there in Townsend and Kipre, who cost less than £1m between them?
And before anyone comments on what happens if/when we get to PL with those quality of players? I say cross that bridge etc. You need to get their first with your swag bag ready to fill with PL loot.
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Snodders, Livermore, Zohore will probably save us 50k a week this level. Thats 2.5m a year. We need to sign new players to replace them and then fee, then find wages. I can't see any backing coming.
Didn't VI have a DOF at Barnsley though and some kind of transfer acumen. We don't have that either. That will cost more money too.
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Snodders, Livermore, Zohore will probably save us 50k a week this level. Thats 2.5m a year. We need to sign new players to replace them and then fee, then find wages. I can't see any backing coming.
Didn't VI have a DOF at Barnsley though and some kind of transfer acumen. We don't have that either. That will cost more money too.
Well that's cheered me up no end Gaz...!
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Well that's cheered me up no end Gaz...!
Sorry mate but i don't see where the money is coming from. I've asked on here before when people say back him. He needs money we don't have so how can we back him? Think it's just a case of let's see who comes through the door early in Jan 2022.
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Sorry mate but i don't see where the money is coming from. I've asked on here before when people say back him. He needs money we don't have so how can we back him? Think it's just a case of let's see who comes through the door early in Jan 2022.
He has always said he doesn’t necessarily want the better players. He wants the players that fit the system and will play it. I’d expect a few cheap signings, maybe ex Barnsley as he has now worked with the current crop for 6 months and knows who he now wants to keep.
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He has always said he doesn’t necessarily want the better players. He wants the players that fit the system and will play it. I’d expect a few cheap signings, maybe ex Barnsley as he has now worked with the current crop for 6 months and knows who he now wants to keep.
Well a few cheap ex BArnsley players doesn't convince me we will achieve promotion, just EFL consolidation on a meagre wage bill.
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Snodders, Livermore, Zohore will probably save us 50k a week this level. Thats 2.5m a year. We need to sign new players to replace them and then fee, then find wages. I can't see any backing coming.
Didn't VI have a DOF at Barnsley though and some kind of transfer acumen. We don't have that either. That will cost more money too.
Zohore is on over £1.25 million a year himself! Our front line this season cost £40m!! We have paid over inflated fees and wages over the last few windows with very little to show for it.
Yet i think of my favourite players over the last decade, even in the Prem, and non came with a significant fee Gera, Jonas, Gmac, Odenwengie, Reid, Scharner just a few that spring to mind. We can't compete financially so we have to be savvy in the market.
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Zohore is on over £1.25 million a year himself!
Jeez that is shocking.
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Zohore is on over £1.25 million a year himself!
REally????? Wheres that from. That means he's on 25k a week in the EFL!! You sure thats not his PL wage, so halved for EFL.
We know Livermore is 20k per week in EFL. Snodgrass was on 30k at WHU so came here on same roughly i'd imagine. So 15k in the EFL. I'm guessing Zohore is on 10-15k per week in the EFL which is insane
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Well a few cheap ex BArnsley players doesn't convince me we will achieve promotion, just EFL consolidation on a meagre wage bill.
You are really confusing me, Gaz - one minute you’re saying where is the money coming from , we have no money’ and now it’s ‘Well a few cheap ex Barnsley players doesn't convince me we will achieve promotional?. So where do we go from there, stand still!?
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You are really confusing me, Gaz - one minute you’re saying where is the money coming from , we have no money’ and now it’s ‘Well a few cheap ex Barnsley players doesn't convince me we will achieve promotional?. So where do we go from there, stand still!?
Sorry for the confusion. I think Val needs his players but they will cost money. We might get 1 good freebie, absolutely possible but 3 good players on a free? That's wishful thinking surely.
I think Val needs decent quality players, not just 3 ex Barnsley players on a free.
I'm looking at longer term over his 3 windows claim. If we have next to nothing now we have less in the next and less in the one after that.
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REally????? Wheres that from. That means he's on 25k a week in the EFL!! You sure thats not his PL wage, so halved for EFL.
We know Livermore is 20k per week in EFL. Snodgrass was on 30k at WHU so came here on same roughly i'd imagine. So 15k in the EFL. I'm guessing Zohore is on 10-15k per week in the EFL which is insane
TBH m certainly not ITK but there are a number of websites out there reporting salary which may all be utter bobbins.
But three or four all put Zohore in our top two or three earners at between 20-25k. If you consider when we bought him and the suggested fee paid it does fit. This was the same window we reportedly started paying Austin 70k week so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that we offered Zohore 40-50k. As ridiculous as that now seems.
Even if it's 10k, abd lets hope it is. That gets you a top top player from the lower leagues or secondary international teams.
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Snodders, Livermore, Zohore will probably save us 50k a week this level. Thats 2.5m a year. We need to sign new players to replace them and then fee, then find wages. I can't see any backing coming.
Didn't VI have a DOF at Barnsley though and some kind of transfer acumen. We don't have that either. That will cost more money too.
Add hugil towards 20k a week. think it unlikely Livermore will go however. If he has fallen out with snodgrass and we can get rid we should he hasnt been worth the wage he is no doubt on.
Zohore surely at some point wants to play football rather than just stay fit for money? But again who is going to take him.
Norwich loaning out that youth seeing hugil go back could save us a fortune...
Also johnstone on big money no doubt club will be tempted to field offers for him this window... plenty of places we can save some money on the wages. This might allow us to bring in some better players that fit the Valball system
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Hugill on 20k per week :o
Mind boggling
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Just watched the Q&A with Val on the website, interesting that he mentions deleting the past (players) and preparing for the future when he references three transfer windows. Also confirmed (which is blindingly obvious anyway) that a no.9 is the priority this window. He comes across well, sounds like a man who will not budge on his principles and has full faith in them.
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I was amazed to read that Ismael is happy with Hugill’s contributions. One goal in 17 games and some wayward finishing to boot. Is anyone else happy? Not me - either with Hugill or Ismael.
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I was amazed to read that Ismael is happy with Hugill’s contributions. One goal in 17 games and some wayward finishing to boot. Is anyone else happy? Not me - either with Hugill or Ismael.
Ismael is not going to call out the player and humiliate him publicly. On the inside he's thinking I can't wait till Norwich takes him back.
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Ismael is not going to call out the player and humiliate him publicly. On the inside he's thinking I can't wait till Norwich takes him back.
Absolutely right. He won’t, nor should he, run dow his players in public but is bound to recognise that Hugill simply is not good enough.
On the subject of wages, whilst not able to prove anything, it is my strong belief that the first team regulars are all on upwards of £20k per week.
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In todays post match presser says they asked to postpone match due to all the illness but FA refused.
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3 points now behind 3rd, with a squad that’s not really suited to play his football, hopefully TGH can get a run in the team now. Val has been hugely successful wherever he’s been before as a manager. Let’s not forget he played at Bayern he’s been a part of much bigger clubs than the Albion.
Does he have more learning to do yes, his football can be mind numbingly boring at times, he needs to be less stubborn but let’s back the guy, he’s not come into the best situation & our poor recruitment under Dowling is been laid to bare in that we have no goal scorers in the team.
Maybe it’s time we give a manager a chance to grow & back him.
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He did well today he only had a couple of days to slot people into various positions.
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I was amazed to read that Ismael is happy with Hugill’s contributions. One goal in 17 games and some wayward finishing to boot. Is anyone else happy? Not me - either with Hugill or Ismael.
On the official site he has said that Hugill ought to be scoring more goals from the opportunities he's had.
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Not much said in this thread at the minute after yesterday's win.
I have been a fierce critic of the manager but with crazy situation of 10 fit outfield players and very little chance to prepare, midfielders in the wide centre back roles (I actually think this suited our style/press better than slow CBs) and other square pegs in round holes, the performance was one of our best all season.
Many - myself included - have been very unhappy with his football and style of play. Yet, I felt we were at our progressive best - breaking the lines, zipping the ball about on the deck and, most importantly, creating plenty of chances.
That is now two positive performances on the bounce and with a finisher, we could have had another 4 or 5 goals over the two games.
Some have said that is was all about the three points yesterday; I couldn't disagree more with that statement. What is more important is to see us perform well and to see progression on the pitch: a clear plan. Watching yesterday, I could see progress on that front.
I hope that this is a sign of things to come...
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What I found interesting yesterday was he kept to his positional beliefs e.g A left footer at CB , it would have been easy to move Furlong into back 3 TGH to RWB etc by doing this he kept square pegs in round holes to a minimum
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Anyone have any idea who Chris is alluding to in the Liquidator podcast?
https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2021/12/15/chris-lepkowski-makes-west-brom-valerien-ismael-unrest-claim/
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Anyone have any idea who Chris is alluding to in the Liquidator podcast?
https://www.westbromnews.co.uk/2021/12/15/chris-lepkowski-makes-west-brom-valerien-ismael-unrest-claim/
half of this forum?
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half of this forum?
He is suggesting its players/backroom staff.
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Just seems like they're raking over the coals about what was being debated at some length regarding Snodders et.al on a variety of football forums prior to the win at Coventry. A bit like their revisiting of the ownership issue. Players get left out of games. Players don't like being left out of games etc......
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Just seems like they're raking over the coals about what was being debated at some length regarding Snodders et.al on a variety of football forums prior to the win at Coventry. A bit like their revisiting of the ownership issue. Players get left out of games. Players don't like being left out of games etc......
Sounded a bit more than that to me from his tone in the podcast. Although you could be right, especially regarding Snodgrass.
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Just seems like they're raking over the coals about what was being debated at some length regarding Snodders et.al on a variety of football forums prior to the win at Coventry. A bit like their revisiting of the ownership issue. Players get left out of games. Players don't like being left out of games etc......
The more I listen, the more I think there's an agenda somewhere.
Nixon broke the Snodgrass story, so there might be something in that, but most of the rest is inuendo.
As the OP said, it's more about tone than substance.
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Sounded a bit more than that to me from his tone in the podcast. Although you could be right, especially regarding Snodgrass.
The last few games have shown a squad united and fully behind the manager. If any of this relates to Sodders, well it's poor journalism. Its common knowledge thatt the player wasn't happy with Val's football/management style and was vocal about it. He has subsequently been binned and made available for transfer. The same will happen to any others who feel the same, which is where the three transfer windows come in. However, I genuinely havnt heard of any other dissenting voices at any level within the club (compared to plenty on here!). Have I missed something?
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Sounded a bit more than that to me from his tone in the podcast. Although you could be right, especially regarding Snodgrass.
I met Chris Lepkowski a few years back. Seemed ok. Can't quite couple the person I met with the the bloke I hear whining over the airwaves. So much so that I can't even listen to him anymore.
I'm going to base the rest of this post on what I skim read in the attached article. As in speculate wildly because I haven't got a clue. A bit like Chris appears to on the podcast.
He doesn't seem to know who those 'responsible' for the alleged unrest are, yet it's been widely speculated online that it's Snodgrass, Robinson, Ajayi and Phillips.
I'm not ITK one way or the other so won't suggest the rumours were true. If he knows better he should name names. If not it might be best to keep a lid on it.
My guess is it's a whinge about nothing following two positive results, an upturn in performances and the release of an online get together where Val came across well. Strikes me as a man working very hard to remain relevant.
Sorry if that upsets Chris or any who follow him and cling to his every word as though it were gospel. Again, struck me as a decent bloke when I met him....... a long time ago.
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The last few games have shown a squad united and fully behind the manager. If any of this relates to Sodders, well it's poor journalism. Its common knowledge thatt the player wasn't happy with Val's football/management style and was vocal about it. He has subsequently been binned and made available for transfer. The same will happen to any others who feel the same, which is where the three transfer windows come in. However, I genuinely havnt heard of any other dissenting voices at any level within the club (compared to plenty on here!). Have I missed something?
Sorry 24. I should have read your post fully before wasting mine and every one else's time with my musings ;D .
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The last few games have shown a squad united and fully behind the manager. If any of this relates to Sodders, well it's poor journalism. Its common knowledge thatt the player wasn't happy with Val's football/management style and was vocal about it. He has subsequently been binned and made available for transfer. The same will happen to any others who feel the same, which is where the three transfer windows come in. However, I genuinely havnt heard of any other dissenting voices at any level within the club (compared to plenty on here!). Have I missed something?
Lepkowski in poor journalism shocker! :o
Snodders is well publicised as is Val's reaction. If anyone else was thinking along the same lines, I guess they will now have reconsidered.
Good strong management.
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So no Gardner-Hickman or Molumby. Leaving himself open to criticism if we don't win
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So no Gardner-Hickman or Molumby. Leaving himself open to criticism if we don't win
If we don't win it will be the front 3 fault.
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If we don't win it will be the front 3 fault.
TGH would have put Robinson through on goal that first half. Furlong overhits an easy pass and it runs through to their keeper. With better quality players we would already be in front. Poor selection tonight. Hugill, Furling & Livermore offer us nothing.
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TGH would have put Robinson through on goal that first half. Furlong overhits an easy pass and it runs through to their keeper. With better quality players we would already be in front. Poor selection tonight. Hugill, Furling & Livermore offer us nothing.
Can you have a word with VI about it please. He's not listening again
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Whatever the final score, I'm done with Ismael now. I can't abide pathetic team selections and substitutions. Over and out.
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I give up, it’s insane, doing the same thing over and over again, absolutely insane. Awful manager
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This manager should go tonight, I have had it with him. Last home game I have never know our place to be so quiet, thats all down to this blokes tactics. Get rid please
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This guy will drag us down the league.
Not a clue. The most clueless manager in the Champo for me.
Awful team selections week in, week out when his boys are available. Only looks good when he's forced to change. Will never change off his own back because he has an idea.
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Back to lumping it down the flanks , dreadful crossing and throw ons . Same old faces sliding back in the side too , had he been fit Phillips no doubt would have started .
Backward step Tonight .
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One of his main problem is he doesn't have plan B.
Same tactic and formation all the time in different situations.
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One of his main problem is he doesn't have plan B.
Same tactic and formation all the time in different situations.
And that is the reason why his continued employment is laughable.
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Too negative v a team there for the taking and absolutely delighted with the goalless draw.
Livermore whilst decent tonight offers no creativity in the final 3rd.
Why is he putting Furlong on set piece duty?
Why leave on Hugill for 90 mins when he offers no goal threat. I'm convinced Cleary could be no worse.
Barnsley had 0.09 expected goals and yet we failed to put them away. Still no win there since 1947.
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The only reason this guy hasn’t gone is because the standard of the league is so bad, he’s a lower league manager who had a lucky season and our board fell for it.
He’ll stubble to the summer when we’ll remove him for failing to make the play offs.
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Time to be calling him into the office and remind him of his (if the top dogs have a clue between them) limited compensation pay off at the very least.
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Football he’s producing is worse than pulisball in my opinion, recent up tick in form looks to be due to suspensions and covid outbreak. Will come out with usual bs after game but think time has come to put us out of our misery and get rid of him
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Hope he’s gone by Monday
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No blame on the manager from me tonight. Was VI crossing the ball in? Was VI taking those set pieces?
The team out there tonight was the strongest we can field apart from Hugill for Diangana and Robinson in the middle.
Down to the players tonight IMO.
Defensively we looked solid. We are a creative player in the middle and a proper centre forward away from seriously pushing the top 2.
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No blame on the manager from me tonight. Was VI crossing the ball in? Was VI taking those set pieces?
The team out there tonight was the strongest we can field apart from Hugill for Diangana and Robinson in the middle.
Down to the players tonight IMO.
Defensively we looked solid. We are a creative player in the middle and a proper centre forward away from seriously pushing the top 2.
he picked the turds who produced that pooh and left out a player that got mom in last two games.so it’s on him.
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I do believe any manager needs backing but do we really want another lump of a number 9 to swing crosses at all game ? Boring and predictable , I worry about giving him funds.
Lumping balls forward , aiming for a big lump most of the game , throw ons and crowding the keeper at set pieces....bit more like The Capped One than some would like to accept .
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I don't think you can criticise the football. We created more than enough chances to have won that game easily, but the quality in the final third just lets us down time and again.
However, I don't think Livermore should have come in. He creates next to nothing , but his replacement Molumby didn't do much better. TGH couldn't have done much worse than Furlong, but his crossing is not as good as some make out. Hugill is a lower league striker who huffs and puffs a lot, but is not clinical and has no goal instinct, but with Phillips out, all we have are academy forwards.
We're fairly solid at the back. We just need to work much harder at improving our final pass and finishing.
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No blame on the manager from me tonight. Was VI crossing the ball in? Was VI taking those set pieces?
The team out there tonight was the strongest we can field apart from Hugill for Diangana and Robinson in the middle.
Down to the players tonight IMO.
Defensively we looked solid. We are a creative player in the middle and a proper centre forward away from seriously pushing the top 2.
Sorry mate but he picked Furlong who was doing the crossing you are criticising. And that’s just not the first team. Molumby for Livermore. TGH for Furlong. Diangana for Hugill. That’s your first team. And let’s not get into the bombing of Snodgrass. This was down. To the manager.
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Miserable football, dour joyless stuff.
If he went tomorrow I would be bothered in the slightest
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I don't think you can criticise the football. We created more than enough chances to have won that game easily, but the quality in the final third just lets us down time and again.
However, I don't think Livermore should have come in. He creates next to nothing , but his replacement Molumby didn't do much better. TGH couldn't have done much worse than Furlong, but his crossing is not as good as some make out. Hugill is a lower league striker who huffs and puffs a lot, but is not clinical and has no goal instinct, but with Phillips out, all we have are academy forwards.
We're fairly solid at the back. We just need to work much harder at improving our final pass and finishing.
I can find fault with the football , his first plan is dull and is made of working the ball wide for endless swinging the balls in to nobody . His 2nd tactics is long throws / corners while crowding the keeper . Basic , easy to defend against and dull .What annoys me is the two previous games we saw some fresh football , playing to feet and beating the man yet because Mr Stubborn has to play certain players in certain roles we revert back to this again .
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To be fair in his post math interview he said he sounds like a broken record. Didnt say he's tactically the same too though.
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I can find fault with the football , his first plan is dull and is made of working the ball wide for endless swinging the balls in to nobody . His 2nd tactics is long throws / corners while crowding the keeper . Basic , easy to defend against and dull .What annoys me is the two previous games we saw some fresh football , playing to feet and beating the man yet because Mr Stubborn has to play certain players in certain roles we revert back to this again .
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we created as many chances today as against Reading. We dominated both games, but one chance went in v Reading. A cross in from the left flank. I agree that TGH has better movement and pass on him than Livermore, ( I assume that's what you're complaining about), but I doubt that he makes that much of a difference. Neither do I think Molumby is that special.
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No blame on the manager from me tonight. Was VI crossing the ball in? Was VI taking those set pieces?
The team out there tonight was the strongest we can field apart from Hugill for Diangana and Robinson in the middle.
Down to the players tonight IMO.
Defensively we looked solid. We are a creative player in the middle and a proper centre forward away from seriously pushing the top 2.
We also need wingbacks with pace who can cross a ball. For me we are 4/5 quality players short at this level. Sides can snuff out our attack far too easily. We can be a very dull team to watch.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but we created as many chances today as against Reading. We dominated both games, but one chance went in v Reading. A cross in from the left flank. I agree that TGH has better movement and pass on him than Livermore, ( I assume that's what you're complaining about), but I doubt that he makes that much of a difference. Neither do I think Molumby is that special.
We spent the Reading game getting in behind the defence (T.G.H was left wing back not CM ) , threaded balls and some neat football . Tonight reverted back to slow , dour predictable attacks purely because certain players have to play . If you enjoy lofted balls to defenders heads or keepers punching then fair enough but its not for me , I've seen them play better in the last two . Talking of keepers thats another to add to the list for a easy game against us , not good enough .
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Sorry mate but he picked Furlong who was doing the crossing you are criticising. And that’s just not the first team. Molumby for Livermore. TGH for Furlong. Diangana for Hugill. That’s your first team. And let’s not get into the bombing of Snodgrass. This was down. To the manager.
Is Molumby better than Livermore? Not convinced.
Diangana has been woeful this year. Not much worse than Hugill.
I want to see how we are after the next window. This is a poor league. With a couple of good additions we are capable of top 2.
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We spent the Reading game getting in behind the defence (T.G.H was left wing back not CM ) , threaded balls and some neat football . Tonight reverted back to slow , dour predictable attacks purely because certain players have to play . If you enjoy lofted balls to defenders heads or keepers punching then fair enough but its not for me , I've seen them play better in the last two . Talking of keepers thats another to add to the list for a easy game against us , not good enough .
This is it - this is the post.
Reading, against all odds, was progressive. Short, sharp football, creating lots of chances.
Tonight, yes we had some chances - not the endless number many on here think we had - but, due to the team selection, we went back to the same uninspiring performances pre-Coventry.
Worrying (again).
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VI seems to be just a continuation of managers at our club who will only utilise players from a select small group and/or has his own personal favourites irrespective of their form. Livermore is the perfect example, I think he recently said he is always the first on the team sheet when fit.
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VI seems to be just a continuation of managers at our club who will only utilise players from a select small group and/or has his own personal favourites irrespective of their form. Livermore is the perfect example, I think he recently said he is always the first on the team sheet when fit.
is there still a click of senior player’s at club who have too much influence over coach?
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We had more than enough chances to win but we just don’t take them. When performances are boring fans will only will really accept it when winning and for the last 10ish games it’s been inconsistent with a winless run in there too.
Furlong and Hugill absolutely must be dropped. It takes a miracle for Furlong to put a good cross in and a miracle for Hugill to put one away - what’s a double a miracle - impossible?
So what are the alternatives? Well it’s TGH and Diangana who looked much better last night.
If he doesn’t change it up going forward then it’s his own stupid fault. If Furlong comes in at RWB when we have 3 games in 7 days then I get it, but not when games are 7 days apart and TGH has had 2 MOTM performances so I take back what I said in the pre match thread about managing him, just trying to see it from Val’s perspective but when Furlong cut in on his unflavoured foot when he had a massive sighted on his right that was it for me.
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Even after night sleep still miffed by team selection and performance, posters saying give him a couple of windows to stamp his mark on team well is there players out there that can trap a ball being fizzed into them at waste height or sprint after balls that are being ballooned over there heads? I’d give Ishmael a chance if he good get the basics right like having players pass to one another consistently and be tactically aware when teams sit in and frustrate. But like picking the same personal I don’t think he’s got what it takes to bring us to next level.
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The thought of him being allowed to spend what little money we have scares the life out of mr tbh
It’ll be one paced cloggers all the way
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Last night was miserable for sure. Despite this I am still a bit shocked by the number of people demanding that VI is sacked. 7 points from last 3 games, should have been 9. He will not be sacked anytime soon. That said I agree that he selected wrong team last night. The selection of Furlong ahead of TGH is especially annoying. Get a centre forward in at start of January. Then let’s see.
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Last night was miserable for sure. Despite this I am still a bit shocked by the number of people demanding that VI is sacked. 7 points from last 3 games, should have been 9. He will not be sacked anytime soon. That said I agree that he selected wrong team last night. The selection of Furlong ahead of TGH is especially annoying. Get a centre forward in at start of January. Then let’s see.
I think we all agree about the CF but we also need to provide better quality service from the left and right wings. Fullbacks with pace who can put quality balls into the box.
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Last night was miserable for sure. Despite this I am still a bit shocked by the number of people demanding that VI is sacked. 7 points from last 3 games, should have been 9. He will not be sacked anytime soon. That said I agree that he selected wrong team last night. The selection of Furlong ahead of TGH is especially annoying. Get a centre forward in at start of January. Then let’s see.
Cannot see him going anywhere soon given our lofty position.
I will admit to having doubts about allowing him to buy players given who he is happy fielding at the moment. My problem is that he will buy player to suit his style, leave, and we will be left with a few 'not very skilful' players
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Loans only for VAL. Do not let him have cash Albion. He’s the worst manager since Gould up the Albion.
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I wouldn't back this team and manager to win the playoffs and the way we struggle to score we may not even make them.
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I didn't watch last night, so I'm not full of the frustration with performance that many on here are feeling. However I have watched the majority of games this season though a combination of home games, sky and dodge streams.
From the highlights last night it just looked like the same problem again; we've battered through the opposition but not scored and goals change the whole narrative. Kipre's header goes in, Hugil puts his foot through it 5 yards out, Grant flicks it over the defender and you have a professional away performance with a clean sheet and the oppo not creating a single chance.
So yes I get the frustration and annoyance with the performance, ive felt it myself this year so get it out there, but the one liners calling for the manager to be sacked are bizarre. Sitting third, best defence in the league (a defence that shipped goals for fun in the PL), creating chances......this isn't a situation where you should be looking to get rid. The manager has called for early reinforcements up front so he is openly addressing the issue and must be confident of doing some business to be so bullish when up to now he has always played the "happy with my squad" line.
I accept it could just be an immefiate reaction to a frustrating performance but there are a number of posters who seem to have decided very early on that Val and his fotball brand wasn't to their liking and are very vocal after a dissapointing performance. In contrast the board went very quiet after the Cov and Reading wins.
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Football he’s producing is worse than pulisball in my opinion, recent up tick in form looks to be due to suspensions and covid outbreak. Will come out with usual bs after game but think time has come to put us out of our misery and get rid of him
I’m not defending Val as I agree with the majority of posters regarding the team selection last night by changing a winning team and our lack of firepower up front.
However, it’s beyond me how people can compare, it’s totally different. Pulisball was defend, defend, defend. No ambition to get into the oppositions penalty area. Zero shots, low possession stats and basically boring to watch as it was so anti-football.
This is the opposite, we control majority of games and we create chances.
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I didn't watch last night, so I'm not full of the frustration with performance that many on here are feeling. However I have watched the majority of games this season though a combination of home games, sky and dodge streams.
From the highlights last night it just looked like the same problem again; we've battered through the opposition but not scored and goals change the whole narrative. Kipre's header goes in, Hugil puts his foot through it 5 yards out, Grant flicks it over the defender and you have a professional away performance with a clean sheet and the oppo not creating a single chance.
So yes I get the frustration and annoyance with the performance, ive felt it myself this year so get it out there, but the one liners calling for the manager to be sacked are bizarre. Sitting third, best defence in the league (a defence that shipped goals for fun in the PL), creating chances......this isn't a situation where you should be looking to get rid. The manager has called for early reinforcements up front so he is openly addressing the issue and must be confident of doing some business to be so bullish when up to now he has always played the "happy with my squad" line.
I accept it could just be an immefiate reaction to a frustrating performance but there are a number of posters who seem to have decided very early on that Val and his fotball brand wasn't to their liking and are very vocal after a dissapointing performance. In contrast the board went very quiet after the Cov and Reading wins.
I think that’s a fair post. I’ve definitely been one to be overly reactive and dramatic after a game. I get your point, there are some positives, and the style of play has improved to an extent too.
However I have big concerns over the stubbornness around formation and team selection. As soon as that team was confirmed, and especially with Livermore back in, it was clear to me that we would be back to the same performance - which proved to be the case.
We are quite clearly a better site with Molumby in. And TGH is quite clearly in better form than Furlong. This is why I get frustrated.
I think the Jan window is very important as it gives Val a chance to move the team more toward the type of football he is looking for.
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I didn't watch last night, so I'm not full of the frustration with performance that many on here are feeling. However I have watched the majority of games this season though a combination of home games, sky and dodge streams.
From the highlights last night it just looked like the same problem again; we've battered through the opposition but not scored and goals change the whole narrative. Kipre's header goes in, Hugil puts his foot through it 5 yards out, Grant flicks it over the defender and you have a professional away performance with a clean sheet and the oppo not creating a single chance.
So yes I get the frustration and annoyance with the performance, ive felt it myself this year so get it out there, but the one liners calling for the manager to be sacked are bizarre. Sitting third, best defence in the league (a defence that shipped goals for fun in the PL), creating chances......this isn't a situation where you should be looking to get rid. The manager has called for early reinforcements up front so he is openly addressing the issue and must be confident of doing some business to be so bullish when up to now he has always played the "happy with my squad" line.
I accept it could just be an immefiate reaction to a frustrating performance but there are a number of posters who seem to have decided very early on that Val and his fotball brand wasn't to their liking and are very vocal after a dissapointing performance. In contrast the board went very quiet after the Cov and Reading wins.
A great post, and you are totally entitled to have your point. However, I was the first to call out VAL after a mess and lucky win after Peterborough. His football simply is awful. His tactics seem to be blast it forward. He picks the wrong team time and again. The atmosphere is dead at home games, I’ve never known it so quiet as the game was against reading, and gates are falling. The biggest problem is his refusal to change shape during games, try something different, especially in matches like stoke where we were being battered, he just kept doing the same thing. Last night, why not try Grady on the left and grant down the middle, and hook the worst forward since Paul Williams. But no he carries on and keeps it the same. We were so dominant, why not take off a defender with ten to go and try and extra body upfront, but no he does the same thing. The one thing that amazed me, that no one has mentioned that I can see, why was Johnson allowed to go up for a corner at nil nil. Why as it is such a dreadful result the manager is desperate and on borrowed time. I hope he goes sooner rather than later
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I’m not defending Val as I agree with the majority of posters regarding the team selection last night by changing a winning team and our lack of firepower up front.
However, it’s beyond me how people can compare, it’s totally different. Pulisball was defend, defend, defend. No ambition to get into the oppositions penalty area. Zero shots, low possession stats and basically boring to watch as it was so anti-football.
This is the opposite, we control majority of games and we create chances.
we create f all chances of note with Valball half chances yes,but the football is bloody awful and mind numbing. Any ball that goes over halfway is hit and hope, pulisball was dross but Rush football is worse.
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I didn't watch last night, so I'm not full of the frustration with performance that many on here are feeling. However I have watched the majority of games this season though a combination of home games, sky and dodge streams.
From the highlights last night it just looked like the same problem again; we've battered through the opposition but not scored and goals change the whole narrative. Kipre's header goes in, Hugil puts his foot through it 5 yards out, Grant flicks it over the defender and you have a professional away performance with a clean sheet and the oppo not creating a single chance.
So yes I get the frustration and annoyance with the performance, ive felt it myself this year so get it out there, but the one liners calling for the manager to be sacked are bizarre. Sitting third, best defence in the league (a defence that shipped goals for fun in the PL), creating chances......this isn't a situation where you should be looking to get rid. The manager has called for early reinforcements up front so he is openly addressing the issue and must be confident of doing some business to be so bullish when up to now he has always played the "happy with my squad" line.
I accept it could just be an immefiate reaction to a frustrating performance but there are a number of posters who seem to have decided very early on that Val and his fotball brand wasn't to their liking and are very vocal after a dissapointing performance. In contrast the board went very quiet after the Cov and Reading wins.
I think that’s a great post, but I would considering it matches most of my opinions.
As for those saying don’t trust VI with signings, if we look at who we’ve brought in to the first team fold since he’s been here (i would include Kipre and TGH) there’s only really Hugill who has disappointed.
He should be given the support to at least sign a striker
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Loans only for VAL. Do not let him have cash Albion. He’s the worst manager since Gould up the Albion.
This is a title winning effort for the most over the top and ludicrous post of the day.
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I didn't watch last night, so I'm not full of the frustration with performance that many on here are feeling. However I have watched the majority of games this season though a combination of home games, sky and dodge streams.
From the highlights last night it just looked like the same problem again; we've battered through the opposition but not scored and goals change the whole narrative. Kipre's header goes in, Hugil puts his foot through it 5 yards out, Grant flicks it over the defender and you have a professional away performance with a clean sheet and the oppo not creating a single chance.
So yes I get the frustration and annoyance with the performance, ive felt it myself this year so get it out there, but the one liners calling for the manager to be sacked are bizarre. Sitting third, best defence in the league (a defence that shipped goals for fun in the PL), creating chances......this isn't a situation where you should be looking to get rid. The manager has called for early reinforcements up front so he is openly addressing the issue and must be confident of doing some business to be so bullish when up to now he has always played the "happy with my squad" line.
I accept it could just be an immefiate reaction to a frustrating performance but there are a number of posters who seem to have decided very early on that Val and his fotball brand wasn't to their liking and are very vocal after a dissapointing performance. In contrast the board went very quiet after the Cov and Reading wins.
Sums up my own opinions exactly. Wish I had been able to express them so well. Therefore probably the most balanced and sensible post this season. Thank you Oldbury
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In all honesty, I think he's got the current group of players punching above their weight. He doesn't have the luxury of a Gayle, Jay Rod, Harvey Barnes, not to mention Pereira. Even Billic had Diangana before his injury when he was a different player.
I'd like to see how Billic would perform with this squad. Even though Billic could never be accused of playing kick and rush, would he have got Albion to above third?
VI's football is not for purists, but I bet most will take a goal from a set piece in a crowded penalty box, given the choice. In any case its better than Pulisbal or a host of Albion managers who believed first and foremost in getting men behind the ball, rather than getting men forward. I'm happy to see him given the chance to bring in a goalscoring forward and several other players who can improve the quality of passes and crosses into the box. I think VI is aware of what Academy potential there is, but perhaps he does need to be braver in giving several more a chance.
The other thing is the loans market. Out of Clarke, Mulumby and Hugill, I would only rate Clarke a success. Previously, we managed to bring in better quality.
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I don’t really get the notion of saying don’t give Val any money, I’d say the summer signing’s generally have been pretty good (bar Hugill) Clarke is an automatic starter, Mulumby has shown he should start (yes Val needs to put him in the team) Mowatt has been a solid signing & Reach a good squad player. I wouldn’t really call any of those (other than Hugill) cloggers. I’m not sure you can even blame Hugill on Val as Dike was clearly the striker he wanted.
For me Ismael’s biggest fault by far is sticking with players that deserve to be dropped. If we back Ismael and get a striker in & he’s still playing Phillips as a striker he deserves all the criticism that will come his way but on the whole I think the summer signings have been solid additions (bar Hugill)
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We all know a point was not enough last night and if proof is needed Cardiff have averaged a point a game and would be in the bottom 3 if Derby and Reading had not had points deducted.A point is only acceptable in extreme circumstances such as only having 10 men or playing a close rival away.
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And let's not forget that he says he doesn't need quality but rather the right player. Oh dear lord. We've seen what we can do without quality.
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We all know a point was not enough last night and if proof is needed Cardiff have averaged a point a game and would be in the bottom 3 if Derby and Reading had not had points deducted.A point is only acceptable in extreme circumstances such as only having 10 men or playing a close rival away.
Genuinely baffled by everything you’ve said here. How does averaging a point a game consistently prove that a point in an individual game isn’t good enough?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but we created as many chances today as against Reading........
I'm going to break in briefly to correct you because you are indeed wrong. We had 25 attempts of varying quality against Reading with 11 on target. Last night we 16 attempts of varying quality with 3 on target. Figures courtesy of the BBC. Sorry about that ;D .
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I'm going to break in briefly to correct you because you are indeed wrong. We had 25 attempts of varying quality against Reading with 11 on target. Last night we 16 attempts of varying quality with 3 on target. Figures courtesy of the BBC. Sorry about that ;D .
Happy to be corrected. I know you to be a fair-minded and balanced poster. (Unless you are reporting on our neighbours from Witton ;D )
Even so, 16 attempts ought to be enough to find the net once.
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The Val issue is, and why he will never succeed at a higher level, is the inability to understand you have to change tactics mid game when you can see what the opposition are doing and what you’re doing isn’t working.
All he does is subs, and this badly.
Not once have I seen us adapt to what the opposition is doing, it’s stupid. It’s why Fulham smashed us.
If he can’t see the issues with our scoring then playing 3 upfront again and again isn’t suddenly going to work.
I want him to succeed but you’d have to be blind to not see the glaring issues and if he’s blind to this I’m seriously worried about what else he isn’t seeing, especially on the training ground.
The players, not the tactics got him through 10 games but once it was worked out and a dip in form it was all over.
I’ll make a bet now that Albion is as high as the guy ever coaches.
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This is a title winning effort for the most over the top and ludicrous post of the day.
I disagree, I think he’s one of the worst managers we’ve had up here in recent years.
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If he can’t see the issues with our scoring then playing 3 upfront again and again isn’t suddenly going to work.
Just one point, unless you are saying play with more up front, how is playing with less up front going to make us more potent? Its like saying playing with less men behind the ball is going to tighten up the defence.
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We missed a great chance in the summer when we could have appointed Chris Wilder. With his track record and achievements we would be in the top 2 now and looking forward to promotion.
Middlesbrough have just beaten Bournemouth and with Chris Wilder in charge they will be overtaking when we play them in February.
We are 3rd now but with other teams showing better current form like Blackburn, Middlesbrough and Forest we will be lucky to get into the play offs.
If we sack Ismael any money we have available will be spent on paying off his contract instead of getting in a striker which is what we really need.
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Just one point, unless you are saying play with more up front, how is playing with less up front going to make us more potent? Its like saying playing with less men behind the ball is going to tighten up the defence.
It's not football manager where the more strikers you have the more you score. ;D
We need more support from midfield and the wingbacks. The issue we have stems from the defence smashing it forward with barely a glance up. We're constantly chasing long balls and it's not giving the midfield any chance to get forward and support.
I t's why when we press we look alright as if we win the ball back we have players forward.
A CF that holds the ball up will help but it will still require players to pick him out. We could have Rondon back but it's no good if the ball is fired 30 yards over his head.
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Just one point, unless you are saying play with more up front, how is playing with less up front going to make us more potent? Its like saying playing with less men behind the ball is going to tighten up the defence.
Are you suggesting an extra man in midfield and dropping Hugill would weaken our chances of scoring? I would be interested to see your reasoning on that one.
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It's not football manager where the more strikers you have the more you score. ;D
We need more support from midfield and the wingbacks. The issue we have stems from the defence smashing it forward with barely a glance up. We're constantly chasing long balls and it's not giving the midfield any chance to get forward and support.
I t's why when we press we look alright as if we win the ball back we have players forward.
A CF that holds the ball up will help but it will still require players to pick him out. We could have Rondon back but it's no good if the ball is fired 30 yards over his head.
Its ultimately about having more players forward in and around the opposition box. Doesn't really matter if you call them forwards or midfielders, but they have to be attacking. 4-4-2 generally means less attacking and less width further up the pitch. Playing one up top is even worse, though agreed even Pulis won the odd game that way. Look at Man City when they are attacking. They often have 7 or 8 men around the opposition penalty box. 3 up top should give us the best chance of scoring. If they don't, that's down to the players own shortcomings.
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Are you suggesting an extra man in midfield and dropping Hugill would weaken our chances of scoring? I would be interested to see your reasoning on that one.
Its not about individuals. The original point I was answering was about tactics and positions.
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I'm disappointed in his inability/ stubbornness in changing things around and I'm disappointed in how lacklustre we are since he has come in.
But to say he is the worst manager since Gould is beyond ridiculous and smacks of short term memory loss. He is most certainly better than Pardew. Controversial but I'd say he is better than our past four managers.
He clearly isn't getting things right for the majority of the time but
a) our squad is the weakest it has been in about 20 years - you can't polish a t***
b) our owner has short arms and deep pockets
c) we are currently still in the mix. Bournemouth lost today and there are only four clubs on over 40 points.
d) in this league (and obviously not in the Prem) we are missing a striker or two. Loan or otherwise, it could be enough to make a difference.
We've spent a handful of years in the Prem and seem to have this attitude of entitlement. Sure our expectations are not being met but let's be real. We haven't got the squad to go up, we certainly haven't got the squad to stay up and we for the foreseeable future have most certainly not got the owners to move us forward in any way shape or form.
We can't afford to get rid and even if we did just imagine what we'd get next.
As you were.
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Its not about individuals. The original point I was answering was about tactics and positions.
Actually, it's very much about individuals what is the point of playing Hugill and playing the ball up to him we would be better with an extra midfielder and adapting our football to suit .
That's football, in a nutshell, you play to your strengths the main reason why many fans now doubt VI and his inability to adapt, playing Hugill is making the team worse.
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Just one point, unless you are saying play with more up front, how is playing with less up front going to make us more potent? Its like saying playing with less men behind the ball is going to tighten up the defence.
Seriously? How many managers play three up front? Hardly any. How many persist with it when you’re not scoring? One. Our clown.
When you don’t have enough strikers you don’t play the bad ones like Hugil. You change the way you play and get midfield to get more. It’s how Albion use to play rather well.
Look at Cooper at Forest. A good manager can take a decent bunch of players and make it work. We have the utter opposite.
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Seriously? How many managers play three up front? Hardly any. How many persist with it when you’re not scoring? One. Our clown.
When you don’t have enough strikers you don’t play the bad ones like Hugil. You change the way you play and get midfield to get more. It’s how Albion use to play rather well.
Look at Cooper at Forest. A good manager can take a decent bunch of players and make it work. We have the utter opposite.
This is spot on. I can't believe what this guy is doing week after week. We probably won't lose more than 10 games, which is kind of a benchmark for promotion, but we won't win enough to get automatic.
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VI when asked why he reverted back to his faves
"“It’s important that everyone is available. Everyone deserved to play after the game last week, but we put the legs back in defence and everyone on his position. We have won lots of games with the starting XI from Friday, so there was no reason to move away from that and change many players."
Guy is clueless. Fridays starting XI has been struggling since Peterborough away.
Please fire him.
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I wish Val would take a leaf out of Arteta’s book. The Arsenal boss has given several youngsters their head in the Premier League - and just look where the Gunners are now! They are playing some superb football and are now in the top four. Come on Val give more of our Under 23s a regular chance. They can’t do any worse than your favourites who get selected irrespective of how they are playing.
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I wish Val would take a leaf out of Arteta’s book. The Arsenal boss has given several youngsters their head in the Premier League - and just look where the Gunners are now! They are playing some superb football and are now in the top four. Come on Val give more of our Under 23s a regular chance. They can’t do any worse than your favourites who get selected irrespective of how they are playing.
Can't argue with this in fact that's what I'd love to see given that we have no purse strings.
Sadly VI can't get past his favourites. to be honest we seem to have had this attitude from coaches for some time now.
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We make several half chances but we seldom get to the by line and centre hard or pull it back so our strikers are facing the target and the defenders are facing their own goal.
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Can't argue with this in fact that's what I'd love to see given that we have no purse strings.
Sadly VI can't get past his favourites. to be honest we seem to have had this attitude from coaches for some time now.
It's really difficult going into a new job where there are several old hands that have influence over the team/office/workshop. You suggest something and everyone looks at the influencer to see what he thinks about it. It's necessary to be really strong-minded. Perhaps the wrong step was to make Livermore captain; it reinforces his untouchability.
It's the difference between Erikson not being able to take an ineffective Beckham off and Scolari substituting Figo. I hope that VI will get to this stage.
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;D If you are any sort of manager..."with balls"..... you have to make these calls and put out your best side every week on "form" and "results".
There are 3 players that should have played against Barnsley....due to their impressive form (and one plays for the U23's) and banging in goals for fun. (I don't have to name who they are).
Need to give these players a start or some game time or they will "walk".
I am not going to point fingers at the underperforming players....we all know who they are, we all watch the same game.
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;D If you are any sort of manager..."with balls"..... you have to make these calls and put out your best side every week on "form" and "results".
There are 3 players that should have played against Barnsley....due to their impressive form (and one plays for the U23's) and banging in goals for fun. (I don't have to name who they are).
Need to give these players a start or some game time or they will "walk".
I am not going to point fingers at the underperforming players....we all know who they are, we all watch the same game.
I'd have half understood reverting to the old guard if we'd had a 3 match week ahead, but the gap is10 days so no-one needs a rest
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I'd have half understood reverting to the old guard if we'd had a 3 match week ahead, but the gap is10 days so no-one needs a rest
Have to agree, there is an element of contradiction when he says everyone will be required, to justify his rotation and then saying we now have a 10 day break.
I wish Val would get banned, it may open his eyes if he watched from the stands, as he's seeing a different game to me from eye level.
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I'd have half understood reverting to the old guard if we'd had a 3 match week ahead, but the gap is10 days so no-one needs a rest
Applying logic and assuming VI considered the team that played against Barnsley his strongest 11 the question I ask is Barnsley are a poor side if anything you could afford to play a slightly weaker team against them and save a couple of senior players for the harder game against Derby.
For me, it just doesn't add up.
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Many of the criticisms on here about the team selection last Friday I agree with. However, it does not change the fact that, had we not missed at least 4 very clear chances, 3 points would have been the outcome.
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For me there are frustrations, including tactics and team selection. BUT we have no given right to be walking the league and we're in the right area at the halfway stage despite a glaring issue in scoring.
Hugill needs to be nowhere near the team again, he simply isn't good enough. Val can't honestly be judged till hes had at least two transfer windows and at least modest backing.
The owners, whoever they are, have a vested interest in getting us up and at this stage we have a solid chance. To finish 7th or below would involve a severe drop in results, so we should be ok for Playoffs at least.
I'm glad he has a 4 year contract, as it prompts the club to actually stick with him and not make kneejerk reactions.
To be fair. After Pulis we could be run any almost anyone and i'd give them time.
I'm still fairly hopeful with Val
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Many of the criticisms on here about the team selection last Friday I agree with. However, it does not change the fact that, had we not missed at least 4 very clear chances, 3 points would have been the outcome.
we have had quite a few type of games like the reading game were we have just managed to get over the line after having many chances. this happens far to often. get the purchases right in January and all might be forgiven. Cant see us getting much out of the next away game either
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Seriously? How many managers play three up front? Hardly any. How many persist with it when you’re not scoring? One. Our clown.
When you don’t have enough strikers you don’t play the bad ones like Hugil. You change the way you play and get midfield to get more. It’s how Albion use to play rather well.
Look at Cooper at Forest. A good manager can take a decent bunch of players and make it work. We have the utter opposite.
4-3-3 is a very well tested and succesful formation and there's no reason why 3-4-3 can't be successful. The problem is that the players are not implementing it properly.
If you're talking going 4-4-2, I can think of loads of Albion teams that have struggled to score with it. Bobby Gould's being just one of them. You need the width going forward to stretch the defence. If you go narrow, its much easier for an organised compact defence. Its about numbers in and around the box, and when you as the attacking side are heavily outnumbered, its more difficult to find a way through.
You can argue the current set of players are not finding a way through, but that's because they can't anticipate, shoot or head accurately. I accept also there is not enough quick link up play from midfield and that the standard of crosses varies between average and abysmal.
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Actually, it's very much about individuals what is the point of playing Hugill and playing the ball up to him we would be better with an extra midfielder and adapting our football to suit .
That's football, in a nutshell, you play to your strengths the main reason why many fans now doubt VI and his inability to adapt, playing Hugill is making the team worse.
You've turned my points into a discussion about Hugill. Yes, I agree that Hugill shouldn't be in the starting team, but we still need to get bodies forward high up the pitch. We still need a player in a central position well forward.
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Seriously? How many managers play three up front? Hardly any. How many persist with it when you’re not scoring? One. Our clown.
When you don’t have enough strikers you don’t play the bad ones like Hugil. You change the way you play and get midfield to get more. It’s how Albion use to play rather well.
Look at Cooper at Forest. A good manager can take a decent bunch of players and make it work. We have the utter opposite.
Jurgen Klopp? Of course different quality of player but in answer to your question. Rigid in playing a front three. Took him a few seasons to successfully implement it though. Vierra at Palace another one I believe.
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Jurgen Klopp? Of course different quality of player but in answer to your question. Rigid in playing a front three. Took him a few seasons to successfully implement it though. Vierra at Palace another one I believe.
But Klopp didn’t play it until he’d got the players. Also watch how Klopp changes tactics during a game. He adapts and that is why he is a top manager.
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But Klopp didn’t play it until he’d got the players. Also watch how Klopp changes tactics during a game. He adapts and that is why he is a top manager.
A quick Google shows him playing 3 up top back in 2015 with a combination of Ibe, Firmino, Llalana, Millner, Benteke and others. Saying something with confidence doesn't necessarily make it factual.
And he may change tactics, but does he change formation? I have seen us change tactics at times throughout the season, just not the formation.
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A quick Google shows him playing 3 up top back in 2015 with a combination of Ibe, Firmino, Llalana, Millner, Benteke and others. Saying something with confidence doesn't necessarily make it factual.
And he may change tactics, but does he change formation? I have seen us change tactics at times throughout the season, just not the formation.
Just so you know I don't think you're supposed to notice that. And whatever happens you're most definitely never supposed to mention it, at all. Wouldn't want you upsetting anyone who hasn't noticed. Be told ;) .
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The level of vitriol towards Val on here and on social media is quite staggering really. Yes there are many decisions he makes that frustrate me, as well as his general stubborness, but he has inherited a poor squad, one without a striker of note, has not been backed in the market and has us within touch of the automatic promotion places.
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The level of vitriol towards Val on here and on social media is quite staggering really. Yes there are many decisions he makes that frustrate me, as well as his general stubborness, but he has inherited a poor squad, one without a striker of note, has not been backed in the market and has us within touch of the automatic promotion places.
Like your vitriol towards Furlong every time we play?
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Like your vitriol towards Furlong every time we play?
Livermore too
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The level of vitriol towards Val on here and on social media is quite staggering really. Yes there are many decisions he makes that frustrate me, as well as his general stubborness, but he has inherited a poor squad, one without a striker of note, has not been backed in the market and has us within touch of the automatic promotion places.
The thinkg is that Val's apparant weaknesses, and the things that really seem to flip off a lot of fans, are also his strengths as a manager.
He prefers a high press, high energy, direct form of football which just sends some fans into a negative frenzy. And yes we have struggled to score goals at times, but its no coincidence that we have the best defensive record in the division. We play a lot of football in the oppositions half.
He frustrates with his insistence on playing the same formation, regardless of the players available. But he does this so that all his squad know their exact role both on and more importantly off the ball. You have to press as a team or it's a pointless activity.
He frustrates with his 60 minute subs, but he does that so his forward line can run themselves ragged in the press and stay reasonably fresh over time. From the little I know of Val I'm sure there is a reason, based on data, for the changes at that particular time.
Finally his apparent reliance on senior pros/not giving yoof the chance. It's a fans wet dream to have the academy players come through but often names are thrown about as first team options without those fans ever seeing them play (I've commented on Cleary in another thread). It's a big step up and seeing Harper and Edwards failing to get into a struggling League One Ipswich side is illuminating. However, Val has seen something in TGH and he is now a key member of the squad. However, he is only 19 and needs to be carefully managed. He will be needed again this year and I expect him to get a lot of game time.
I generally find that no matter how much I might feel frustrated or dissapointed around match day that on reflection I can see a method and process behind the actions and decisions. That's why I tend to play devils advocate on the boards and think Val does need to be given time, by the fans as well as the owners.
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The level of vitriol towards Val on here and on social media is quite staggering really. Yes there are many decisions he makes that frustrate me, as well as his general stubborness, but he has inherited a poor squad, one without a striker of note, has not been backed in the market and has us within touch of the automatic promotion places.
The statement that he wasn't backed is a bit tired because he knew the situation when he took the job and, at no point, has he complained about the signings made, or any lack of signings. Therefore, we have to assume that he had input in the window and was happy with how it went. So, if he is a success so far, then so is everyone above him.
This is not vitriol, I want him to succeed, but there is far more vitriol against the club in general, than there has been for Val and neither is particularly justified IMO.
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The thinkg is that Val's apparant weaknesses, and the things that really seem to flip off a lot of fans, are also his strengths as a manager.
He prefers a high press, high energy, direct form of football which just sends some fans into a negative frenzy. And yes we have struggled to score goals at times, but its no coincidence that we have the best defensive record in the division. We play a lot of football in the oppositions half.
He frustrates with his insistence on playing the same formation, regardless of the players available. But he does this so that all his squad know their exact role both on and more importantly off the ball. You have to press as a team or it's a pointless activity.
He frustrates with his 60 minute subs, but he does that so his forward line can run themselves ragged in the press and stay reasonably fresh over time. From the little I know of Val I'm sure there is a reason, based on data, for the changes at that particular time.
Finally his apparent reliance on senior pros/not giving yoof the chance. It's a fans wet dream to have the academy players come through but often names are thrown about as first team options without those fans ever seeing them play (I've commented on Cleary in another thread). It's a big step up and seeing Harper and Edwards failing to get into a struggling League One Ipswich side is illuminating. However, Val has seen something in TGH and he is now a key member of the squad. However, he is only 19 and needs to be carefully managed. He will be needed again this year and I expect him to get a lot of game time.
I generally find that no matter how much I might feel frustrated or dissapointed around match day that on reflection I can see a method and process behind the actions and decisions. That's why I tend to play devils advocate on the boards and think Val does need to be given time, by the fans as well as the owners.
I think this post is fantastic and is where I am with everything. I do get frustrated in the game and sometimes at selections (less so than others) but he really hasn't been backed and I think the fact we're well within touch of FIRST place, not just automatic; FIRST is amazing really and he should be commended for that. The defence is doing fantastic as well and they aren't exactly phenomenal individuals our defenders.
Even if we had a striker that put away 10% more chances than our current crop we'd probably be top.
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The thinkg is that Val's apparant weaknesses, and the things that really seem to flip off a lot of fans, are also his strengths as a manager.
He prefers a high press, high energy, direct form of football which just sends some fans into a negative frenzy. And yes we have struggled to score goals at times, but its no coincidence that we have the best defensive record in the division. We play a lot of football in the oppositions half.
He frustrates with his insistence on playing the same formation, regardless of the players available. But he does this so that all his squad know their exact role both on and more importantly off the ball. You have to press as a team or it's a pointless activity.
He frustrates with his 60 minute subs, but he does that so his forward line can run themselves ragged in the press and stay reasonably fresh over time. From the little I know of Val I'm sure there is a reason, based on data, for the changes at that particular time.
Finally his apparent reliance on senior pros/not giving yoof the chance. It's a fans wet dream to have the academy players come through but often names are thrown about as first team options without those fans ever seeing them play (I've commented on Cleary in another thread). It's a big step up and seeing Harper and Edwards failing to get into a struggling League One Ipswich side is illuminating. However, Val has seen something in TGH and he is now a key member of the squad. However, he is only 19 and needs to be carefully managed. He will be needed again this year and I expect him to get a lot of game time.
I generally find that no matter how much I might feel frustrated or dissapointed around match day that on reflection I can see a method and process behind the actions and decisions. That's why I tend to play devils advocate on the boards and think Val does need to be given time, by the fans as well as the owners.
Absolutely spot on.
If we sign a centre forward that can regularly find the net then we will win a lot more games. We are creating the chances but have no genuine strikers who are up to task. Bring in Duke and I would be confident of promotion. He's not the only player out there but the most realistic and proven option in this formation and style of play.
Back the manager and then judge him on results
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we create f all chances of note with Valball half chances yes,but the football is bloody awful and mind numbing. Any ball that goes over halfway is hit and hope, pulisball was dross but Rush football is worse.
You must watch a different game to me because I don’t see us creating f all chances. A large proportion of our delivery into the danger area’s do lack quality but chances are still created.
I’d rather watch your description of ‘rush football’ than Pulis dross any day.
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Reviewing some of the posts on this thread just highlights how the passion surrounding a match day affects us the supporters. There were a significant number of people saying 'sack him' immediately after the Barnsley game yet, once emotions have cooled a little, this feeling reduces significantly. I think the post of Oldbury 24 is bang on personally. Give him a good striker in the window, then see how things go.
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Reviewing some of the posts on this thread just highlights how the passion surrounding a match day affects us the supporters. There were a significant number of people saying 'sack him' immediately after the Barnsley game yet, once emotions have cooled a little, this feeling reduces significantly. I think the post of Oldbury 24 is bang on personally. Give him a good striker in the window, then see how things go.
I couldn’t agree more KN22 and yes Oldbury 24 post was spot on. Also to note the football is not as dire as some make out. I’ve been supporting the Albion for 50+ years I’ve seen far far worse.
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I couldn’t agree more KN22 and yes Oldbury 24 post was spot on. Also to note the football is not as dire as some make out. I’ve been supporting the Albion for 50+ years I’ve seen far far worse.
Some fans were raised watching Allen then Astle, some saw Regis, Cunningham, Robson and Bomber. Younger fans saw us established in the Premier League. All of these fans must have real golden memories and games from their formative years to reflect on and compare to.
For me, Ossie's Albion was a flash of enjoyment and happiness swathed in years of turgid lower division football. Apart from that glorious day at Wembley they were pretty dark days but I loved them all the same.
Might be hard to believe for some but i never thought I would see PL football in my lifetime! And SGM is a footballing God amongst God's in my eyes for turning the club around. However, SGM himself was a footballing pragmatist. We were promoted to the Promided Land on clean sheets not an abundance of goals. How much I loved a 1-0 win!!
Maybe all that explains why I'm a pragmatist rather than a purist and struggle to see the terrible football from Val's Albion that others are viewing.
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Some fans were raised watching Allen then Astle, some saw Regis, Cunningham, Robson and Bomber. Younger fans saw us established in the Premier League. All of these fans must have real golden memories and games from their formative years to reflect on and compare to.
For me, Ossie's Albion was a flash of enjoyment and happiness swathed in years of turgid lower division football. Apart from that glorious day at Wembley they were pretty dark days but I loved them all the same.
Might be hard to believe for some but i never thought I would see PL football in my lifetime! And SGM is a footballing God amongst God's in my eyes for turning the club around. However, SGM himself was a footballing pragmatist. We were promoted to the Promided Land on clean sheets not an abundance of goals. How much I loved a 1-0 win!!
Maybe all that explains why I'm a pragmatist rather than a purist and struggle to see the terrible football from Val's Albion that others are viewing.
People of my age and older have seen some good and exciting times and saw some excellent players whom never got the reconciliation they should as they played for little old West Brom. However there has been more turgid times than good.
Your quote in bold regarding SGM I was going to add that to my post but I’m not as good with words as you! ;D That season we got promoted I came away from some games deflated with the entertainment value but ecstatic at the same time as the promotion push continued.
I’d be happy with the same outcome this season!!
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Reviewing some of the posts on this thread just highlights how the passion surrounding a match day affects us the supporters. There were a significant number of people saying 'sack him' immediately after the Barnsley game yet, once emotions have cooled a little, this feeling reduces significantly. I think the post of Oldbury 24 is bang on personally. Give him a good striker in the window, then see how things go.
I am a good example of what you have observed.
Matchday responses are, in the main, a far more emotional beast, which is understandable given the build up, anticipation, trepidation and hope that every game brings. It is basically turning us into psychological time-bombs. This is why I never try to hide my fickleness. I have over 40 years of emotion and passion invested into my club so I will not apologise for getting carried away now and again, be it positively or negatively, I've earned that right.
I would say my most balanced self, is around the midpoint between any two games. :)
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Like your vitriol towards Furlong every time we play?
Horrendous footballer who contributes absolutely nothing to the side, unlike the manager who has us in touching distance of promotion with half the season to go.
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Horrendous footballer who contributes absolutely nothing to the side, unlike the manager who has us in touching distance of promotion with half the season to go.
Your opinion mate, but i disagree with both your comments.
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Your opinion mate, but i disagree with both your comments.
"unlike the manager who has us in touching distance of promotion with half the season to go."
Hard to see how you can disagree with this comment. It's pretty much a fact !!
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Your opinion mate, but i disagree with both your comments.
I’d be disappointed if you didn’t in all honesty
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... unlike the manager who has us in touching distance of promotion with half the season to go.
Correct way to look at it. Well said. Gotta keep us in the mix all the same.
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Most managers have learned to develop their own style of football after they've been in the game for a while. In that way Val is no different to Pulis or Guardiola.
What do you think if Downing/Jenkins (or whoever was Director at the time) had said to Pulis, look Tony, we'd like you to start playing more free-flowing football, wing backs getting forward, passing through the midfield. You know it's not going to happen.
When Val joined he would have laid out his 'philosophy' and on that basis the club bought into it. That's not to say he shouldn't tweak things during games. If the oppostion winger is turning our back inside out, he should be able to spot that, and double up on the winger or sub the back. But the players have to know the basic tactics.
I think if the basic formation were to change, I would favour going to a back 4 instead of 3, not losing width further up the pitch. But even, then it means the players have to learn their new roles.
BTW excellent posts Oldbury24.
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"unlike the manager who has us in touching distance of promotion with half the season to go."
Hard to see how you can disagree with this comment. It's pretty much a fact !!
More by luck than his superior coaching skills! I nearly stopped going when Pulis was here but after being there through good and bad times over 55years i continued to go. But i haven't been and won't be going while this bloke is here.
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More by luck than his superior coaching skills! I nearly stopped going when Pulis was here but after being there through good and bad times over 55years i continued to go. But i haven't been and won't be going while this bloke is here.
This is of course your choice to make so I wouldn’t dream of criticising you. What I will say though is that having watched all home games under Pulis and done the same so far under VI, the football now is definitely better than that under Pulis. We at least try to win games.
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In an article thats gone up this morning on the E+S, VI says that he feels he has improved WBA massively in every area.
He's strong minded i'll give him that.
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In an article thats gone up this morning on the E+S, VI says that he feels he has improved WBA massively in every area.
He's strong minded i'll give him that.
Delusional more like......
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In an article thats gone up this morning on the E+S, VI says that he feels he has improved WBA massively in every area.
He's strong minded i'll give him that.
We were in a mess when he took over. Big Sam’s first team virtually left and we had the remains of a squad which was struggling. I’m not sure many Head Coaches fancied the job at the time.
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In an article thats gone up this morning on the E+S, VI says that he feels he has improved WBA massively in every area.
He's strong minded i'll give him that.
This is the article
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/12/22/valerien-ismael-west-brom-have-improved-massively/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/12/22/valerien-ismael-west-brom-have-improved-massively/)
Within the criteria in the article, I think I'd agree with him.
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It's articles like that, that do him no favours.
If you're going to be that confident then boy you better back it up. You can't keep trotting out the same post-match rubbish and not changing anything when we have clearly had a poor game.
I'll give him the Jan window but come the end of the season when we've scraped the play-offs or missed out I can't see anybody wanting another season of Val at the Albion. He'll appear at somewhere like Ipswich, Sunderland or Wigan in the next 18 months.
He's just not good enough for this club IMO.
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It's articles like that, that do him no favours.
If you're going to be that confident then boy you better back it up. You can't keep trotting out the same post-match rubbish and not changing anything when we have clearly had a poor game.
I'll give him the Jan window but come the end of the season when we've scraped the play-offs or missed out I can't see anybody wanting another season of Val at the Albion. He'll appear at somewhere like Ipswich, Sunderland or Wigan in the next 18 months.
He's just not good enough for this club IMO.
Which bit do you disagree with?
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This is the article
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/12/22/valerien-ismael-west-brom-have-improved-massively/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/12/22/valerien-ismael-west-brom-have-improved-massively/)
Within the criteria in the article, I think I'd agree with him.
It seems he's talking about off the pitch rather than on it, with reference to mentality, training, philosophy etc. along with integration and pathway for youth. Can't see how anyone can complain about it as it's what we've been crying out for isn't it? A long term plan with a clear identity and structure.
Just needs to translate to the pitch now.
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Which bit do you disagree with?
I quote
"I think after six months work we have improved massively in all areas."
No, no we haven't.
First team, weaker than last year.
Fitness, some players look knackered after 15 minutes.
Set pieces are terrible.
Tactics, we seem to have plan A and plan A again.
Youth players, we have a striker doing fairly well in the reserves, just give him a go. If he's rubbish, he's rubbish but without a chance people will just think he's the answer. You'd think after THG doing well we might try a few more. I don't reallyfully blame VAL here as we've been awful at this for years.
For him to say all areas is stupid and sets up him for a fall.
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We were in a mess when he took over. Big Sam’s first team virtually left and we had the remains of a squad which was struggling. I’m not sure many Head Coaches fancied the job at the time.
Loads will have in my opinion with how rubbish the EFL is. Why do you think VI fancied it?
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Loads will have in my opinion with how rubbish the EFL is. Why do you think VI fancied it?
It was a step up from Barnsley. However, we all knew there was a lot work to do in terms of rebuilding a squad many of whom were not first choice last season.
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I quote
"I think after six months work we have improved massively in all areas."
No, no we haven't.
First team, weaker than last year.
Fitness, some players look knackered after 15 minutes.
Set pieces are terrible.
Tactics, we seem to have plan A and plan A again.
Youth players, we have a striker doing fairly well in the reserves, just give him a go. If he's rubbish, he's rubbish but without a chance people will just think he's the answer. You'd think after THG doing well we might try a few more. I don't reallyfully blame VAL here as we've been awful at this for years.
For him to say all areas is stupid and sets up him for a fall.
“Weaker than last year†isn’t fair comment. We were in the Premier League last season with several high profile loanees plus Pereira. He means in the 6 months since he arrived, given what was actually awaiting him.
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“Weaker than last year†isn’t fair comment. We were in the Premier League last season with several high profile loanees plus Pereira. He means in the 6 months since he arrived, given what was actually awaiting him.
Compare opening 4 games under him to our recent games. Not sure how he can say we've improved.
Perhaps more alarming then is that Val sees our current state as being on the way to what he wants.
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We all know a decent forward would massively improve our performance, confidence and hopefully results I think we would then see a marked improvement in the comments regarding VI.
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I quote
"I think after six months work we have improved massively in all areas."
No, no we haven't.
First team, weaker than last year.
Fitness, some players look knackered after 15 minutes.
Set pieces are terrible.
Tactics, we seem to have plan A and plan A again.
Youth players, we have a striker doing fairly well in the reserves, just give him a go. If he's rubbish, he's rubbish but without a chance people will just think he's the answer. You'd think after THG doing well we might try a few more. I don't reallyfully blame VAL here as we've been awful at this for years.
For him to say all areas is stupid and sets up him for a fall.
As was said in a previous post, he was talking about building a framework or structure.
Without doubt, he has done that, it's something that's been missing since Pulis was allowed to dismantle Dan Ashworth's structure.
VI clearly has an analytical mindset, something I can relate to, I would say his KPI numbers have improved quite dramatically since he came.
You could fault him for not playing Cleary when we have a serious problem in scoring goals, but even Cleary's U23 Manager has said he's probably not ready for first team yet. Additionally, members of this forum who have seen Cleary play have said that they understand why he's not being picked.
As I said previously, I tend to have an analytical mindset, so I have some understanding of VI's position. I can see though, if you have more of a creative mindset, VI's football is not very aesthetic, & I can't fault anybody for having an opinion on that basis.
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I can't agree that the team plays the original over the top football anymore. Val is evolving it to play more in midfield and on the ground. As he coaches the players and maybe adds a couple more this evolution may continue. But anybody expecting a miraculous overnight transformation from the short-termist shambles left by previous managers is always going to suffer disappointment.
I think that most of the criticism here comes from frustration that the goals aren't going in despite the chances and from some from the feeling of entitlement that somehow WBA just deserve to be in the EPL - but as that is mostly founded on expenditure the entitlement is misplaced.
He was certainly not my first choice but Ishmael must be given the chance to continue his changes both in the background and on matchdays for a couple of seasons.
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Compare opening 4 games under him to our recent games. Not sure how he can say we've improved.
Perhaps more alarming then is that Val sees our current state as being on the way to what he wants.
It will be interesting too see who he gets in in Jan, given what he has previously said about getting the right players not necessarily the best players.
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Compare opening 4 games under him to our recent games. Not sure how he can say we've improved.
Perhaps more alarming then is that Val sees our current state as being on the way to what he wants.
Its been pretty well acknowledged that after we'd flattened a few teams with our shock and awe tactics over those first few games the rest of the division bar Fulham were running scared and just started hoofing it forward at every opportunity thus negating the effectiveness of the press.
Val has admitted that even he was suprised how many teams completely changed their way of playing to counter act us. This wouldn't have happened In either Germany or Austria and obviously didn't happen to Barnsley to that effect so dealing with this was a different problem.
Because of this the team have had to play with the high pressing and direct football in combination with playing more through the lines. Its one of the reasons Kipre is now ahead of Semi as he is a much better passer of the ball.
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As was said in a previous post, he was talking about building a framework or structure.
Without doubt, he has done that, it's something that's been missing since Pulis was allowed to dismantle Dan Ashworth's structure.
VI clearly has an analytical mindset, something I can relate to, I would say his KPI numbers have improved quite dramatically since he came.
You could fault him for not playing Cleary when we have a serious problem in scoring goals, but even Cleary's U23 Manager has said he's probably not ready for first team yet. Additionally, members of this forum who have seen Cleary play have said that they understand why he's not being picked.
As I said previously, I tend to have an analytical mindset, so I have some understanding of VI's position. I can see though, if you have more of a creative mindset, VI's football is not very aesthetic, & I can't fault anybody for having an opinion on that basis.
I'm not sure you can compare KPI numbers since he came as we're down a division, I should hope we've improved on that front.
What framework\structure has he built though? We're still playing a brand of football not suited to the players we have. Our forward play still consists of the defence smashing it forward, usually 30 yards too long, without even getting their head up. Off the pitch we're doing everything on the cheap.
If we're being honest, after a bright start, we're just treading water and hoping to collect *just* enough points to stay ahead of the pack behind us.
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It was a step up from Barnsley. However, we all knew there was a lot work to do in terms of rebuilding a squad many of whom were not first choice last season.
Fair but this is the EFL not the EPL. These lot are fine at the chsmpo current standards
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Sounds to me like an acknowledgement that he is under pressure and he is trying to deflect this by pointing out stuff beyond first team results, this "stuff" may or may not be true but he will only be judged on
a) results by vast majority
b) style by a significant number
c) "stuff" by a few
Most importantly to VI, Lai will judge him on return on investment, the desired return being to the prem.
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I'm not sure you can compare KPI numbers since he came as we're down a division, I should hope we've improved on that front.
What framework\structure has he built though? We're still playing a brand of football not suited to the players we have. Our forward play still consists of the defence smashing it forward, usually 30 yards too long, without even getting their head up. Off the pitch we're doing everything on the cheap.
If we're being honest, after a bright start, we're just treading water and hoping to collect *just* enough points to stay ahead of the pack behind us.
I missed the Barnsley game bit have streamed most other games home and away. Have we been watching the same team over the last couple of months??? I've seen a team attempting to press at the right times and play in the oppositions half but also try and play through the lines a LOT more when in possession. The issue has been in delivery into the box and lack of a predatory striker/goals from around the team.
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As was said in a previous post, he was talking about building a framework or structure.
Without doubt, he has done that, it's something that's been missing since Pulis was allowed to dismantle Dan Ashworth's structure.
VI clearly has an analytical mindset, something I can relate to, I would say his KPI numbers have improved quite dramatically since he came.
You could fault him for not playing Cleary when we have a serious problem in scoring goals, but even Cleary's U23 Manager has said he's probably not ready for first team yet. Additionally, members of this forum who have seen Cleary play have said that they understand why he's not being picked.
As I said previously, I tend to have an analytical mindset, so I have some understanding of VI's position. I can see though, if you have more of a creative mindset, VI's football is not very aesthetic, & I can't fault anybody for having an opinion on that basis.
I have to agree. We can only hope it works out and quickly. I never want a manager to fail, I just worry about this one a lot.
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just going back to the Cleary discussion,
I cannot understand why he isnt at least tried for 30 minutes when the forwards are knackered, If he is just a natural scorer and not in the VI model, then upside number 1 is he will gain value / interest.
He may not suit Valball and the plan is Val being here for a long time yet, so try him and make a judgement then, if he pops one or two in its upside number 2 to Hugills contribution
If he bombs and is never seen again, its no loss as he wouldnt have been a VI player anyway, yes its a harsh way of looking at the situation, but realistic (I think)
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just going back to the Cleary discussion,
I cannot understand why he isnt at least tried for 30 minutes when the forwards are knackered, If he is just a natural scorer and not in the VI model, then upside number 1 is he will gain value / interest.
He may not suit Valball and the plan is Val being here for a long time yet, so try him and make a judgement then, if he pops one or two in its upside number 2 to Hugills contribution
If he bombs and is never seen again, its no loss as he wouldnt have been a VI player anyway, yes its a harsh way of looking at the situation, but realistic (I think)
I find it scandalous that he wasn't on the bench against Barnsley there was nothing on the bench to give us a goal threat, I agree he should have been given minutes and if he wasn't ready so be it what had we got to lose.
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just going back to the Cleary discussion,
I cannot understand why he isnt at least tried for 30 minutes when the forwards are knackered, If he is just a natural scorer and not in the VI model, then upside number 1 is he will gain value / interest.
He may not suit Valball and the plan is Val being here for a long time yet, so try him and make a judgement then, if he pops one or two in its upside number 2 to Hugills contribution
If he bombs and is never seen again, its no loss as he wouldnt have been a VI player anyway, yes its a harsh way of looking at the situation, but realistic (I think)
Val's forward players are a key part of the whole team press and if they don't press as required the whole thing breaks down.
The 23's play the same formation and tactics so all players know what is required. I havn't seen him play myself but a few posters have confirmed that this is, to say the least, not one of his strengths.
Rightly or wrongly, if Val doesnt feel he can be trusted to carry out the role, or indeed deserve a first team place based on his 23s performances, he will not play regardless of how many goals scored at yoof or 23 level.
He has confirmed he's on the radar and training with the first team, but the suggestion is he's not yet ready.
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just going back to the Cleary discussion,
I cannot understand why he isnt at least tried for 30 minutes when the forwards are knackered, If he is just a natural scorer and not in the VI model, then upside number 1 is he will gain value / interest.
He may not suit Valball and the plan is Val being here for a long time yet, so try him and make a judgement then, if he pops one or two in its upside number 2 to Hugills contribution
If he bombs and is never seen again, its no loss as he wouldnt have been a VI player anyway, yes its a harsh way of looking at the situation, but realistic (I think)
Given Val's own preference to not play forwards for the full 90, it makes it even more bizarre. Especially when Hugill is the one getting a full 90!!
If he's on the radar and training with the first team, then how far away can he be that Huggy gets a full game ahead of him, despite being poor for the entirety of said game?
Val speaks well but he is in danger of falling into the Boris trap of contradicting himself and then no-one believing a word he says.
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Val's forward players are a key part of the whole team press and if they don't press as required the whole thing breaks down.
The 23's play the same formation and tactics so all players know what is required. I havn't seen him play myself but a few posters have confirmed that this is, to say the least, not one of his strengths.
Rightly or wrongly, if Val doesnt feel he can be trusted to carry out the role, or indeed deserve a first team place based on his 23s performances, he will not play regardless of how many goals scored at yoof or 23 level.
He has confirmed he's on the radar and training with the first team, but the suggestion is he's not yet ready.
Yes, yes and Yes, BUT, the incumbent isnt capable so what is to loose? incapable versus not ready? 1 belongs to someone else the other is ours with possible upside. Too patient / tolerant / intransigent however its painted VI is wrong on this one IMO.
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Yes, yes and Yes, BUT, the incumbent isnt capable so what is to loose? incapable versus not ready? 1 belongs to someone else the other is ours with possible upside. Too patient / tolerant / intransigent however its painted VI is wrong on this one IMO.
Maybe, from watching him in training and playing for the 23s, he simply doesn't think Cleary is good enough or up to the task? Or hasn't yet done enough to earn the opportunity.
It's often the one thing that we fans shout for.....why not play the kids? And I was calling for Cleary to get a run myself on COVID Saturday. However, the answer looking at our last few cohorts has been because they were just not good enough.
Hugil may not be able to hit a cow's backside etc but maybe he is carrying out Vals other instructions to the letter? I agree with a lot of what you say btw, just playing devils advocate really.
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Maybe, from watching him in training and playing for the 23s, he simply doesn't think Cleary is good enough or up to the task? Or hasn't yet done enough to earn the opportunity.
It's often the one thing that we fans shout for.....why not play the kids?.....well the answer looking at our last few cohorts has been because they were just not good enough.
I don't think anyone suggests we play them for the sake of it but, when Val himself talks about a pathway for youth and the fact that Cleary is on the radar and training with the first team, he is surely suggesting that he is not far away. Couple this with the fact that Huggy is absolutely dire and looks like he could miss from a yard with no goalie, whilst Cleary, regardless of his inexperience, is scoring on a regular basis and it just doesn't add up.
Same with TGH, who, based on 1st team performances, has done more to warrant a start than either Furlong or Livermore, yet gets dropped completely, then Val's actions do not match his words.
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I don't think anyone suggests we play them for the sake of it but, when Val himself talks about a pathway for youth and the fact that Cleary is on the radar and training with the first team, he is surely suggesting that he is not far away. Couple this with the fact that Huggy is absolutely dire and looks like he could miss from a yard with no goalie, whilst Cleary, regardless of his inexperience, is scoring on a regular basis and it just doesn't add up.
Same with TGH, who, based on 1st team performances, has done more to warrant a start than either Furlong or Livermore, yet gets dropped completely, then Val's actions do not match his words.
As I've said in previous posts, if Val doesn't think Cleary can play the role of CF which includes being a trigger for pressing, or deserves a place due to work rate shown he won't get a first team spot......regardless of how many goals he scores for the kids/In the stiffs. He picked TGH because he had shown he had the right attributes, and had the numbers behind him.
Below is a quote from a poster on this board after watching the 23s
Can't see Cleary ever getting a game out of Val. He's sluggish unless there's a chance of glory; does not go in for 50/50's and only makes a token efforts at pressing.
If that's what the manager is also seeing, it does kind of add up.
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I'm not sure you can compare KPI numbers since he came as we're down a division, I should hope we've improved on that front.
What framework\structure has he built though? We're still playing a brand of football not suited to the players we have. Our forward play still consists of the defence smashing it forward, usually 30 yards too long, without even getting their head up. Off the pitch we're doing everything on the cheap.
If we're being honest, after a bright start, we're just treading water and hoping to collect *just* enough points to stay ahead of the pack behind us.
I think I've conceded that VI's prefered style is not very easy on the eye.
Regarding KPI's, these would be the KPI's that VI would have set himself as milestones on the journey to achieving the vision he sold to the WBAFC board.
Therefore not really connected to any previous performances.
Your interpretation of the finances involved is "doing things on the cheap", & conventional logic would suggest that you have to have highly skilled & expensive players to even exist at elite levels in football.
From reports coming out of B71, it appears that VI has convinced our board that he can at least achieve promotion, by the effort & application of less expensive players.
I would suggest, he's working to a limited budget as opposed to "doing it on the cheap", & up to now he's doing ok.
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Easy on the eye football is all very subjective. Gary Megson’s football wasn’t all that pretty but it was certainly an exciting time. Seeing a 1-0 win when we out battled the opposition and gained a narrow victory made for real entertainment. If under Val we scored more goals and stayed tight at the back I’d take that. If we want to move forwards we will never survive in the Premier League with pretty football. I actually think Val ball with better quality players in key positions could rattle a few top clubs and be interesting. But - we have to get there first!
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As I've said in previous posts, if Val doesn't think Cleary can play the role of CF which includes being a trigger for pressing, or deserves a place due to work rate shown he won't get a first team spot......regardless of how many goals he scores for the kids/In the stiffs. He picked TGH because he had shown he had the right attributes, and had the numbers behind him.
Below is a quote from a poster on this board after watching the 23s
Can't see Cleary ever getting a game out of Val. He's sluggish unless there's a chance of glory; does not go in for 50/50's and only makes a token efforts at pressing.
If that's what the manager is also seeing, it does kind of add up.
Then why is he even “. On the radar�
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Easy on the eye football is all very subjective. Gary Megson’s football wasn’t all that pretty but it was certainly an exciting time. Seeing a 1-0 win when we out battled the opposition and gained a narrow victory made for real entertainment. If under Val we scored more goals and stayed tight at the back I’d take that. If we want to move forwards we will never survive in the Premier League with pretty football. I actually think Val ball with better quality players in key positions could rattle a few top clubs and be interesting. But - we have to get there first!
And let's not forget GM's success criteria after the first promotion was not getting hammered every week
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Then why is he even “. On the radar�
Is that a serious question! Are you asking why the first team manager is keeping an eye on a high achieving academy product? Why they are mixing him with the first team as part of his development? Regardless of his physical or mental readiness for first team action now why would he NOT be on the radar?
I'd love to see Cleary come through myself but he's got to earn that chance through doing the job for the 23s.
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He can't be any worse than Hugill.
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It would be interesting see if Cleary would be more inclined to go in for 50/50s if he had a proper contract. It might be a conscious thing to protect himself.
I’d be more worried about pinning him down than getting him in the 11 right now
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Given Val's own preference to not play forwards for the full 90, it makes it even more bizarre. Especially when Hugill is the one getting a full 90!!........
Prepare to be bored by stats. Hugill has 19 appearances to his name. He's only made the starting 11 on 7 occasions and completed 90 minutes 5 times. We're unbeaten in those 5 games winning 3, drawing 2.
He's amassed 1 goal from 973 minutes of playing time in total but clearly gives something more to the team than goals and assists. Would Val like more end product? Clearly. With Cleary you may or may not get goals but you'll definitely get less work. That's what Val sees.
A bit like Jake Livermore who gets plenty of playing time and does a lot of work which often goes unnoticed. He's the Jake Livermore of the front 3. Hugill doesn't get 90 minutes all the time, it just feels like it ;D .
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Is that a serious question! Are you asking why the first team manager is keeping an eye on a high achieving academy product? Why they are mixing him with the first team as part of his development? Regardless of his physical or mental readiness for first team action now why would he NOT be on the radar?
I'd love to see Cleary come through myself but he's got to earn that chance through doing the job for the 23s.
It was a serious question based on your statement:
"if Val doesn't think Cleary can play the role of CF which includes being a trigger for pressing, or deserves a place due to work rate shown he won't get a first team spot"
I'm not saying he's going to change the world or be the next Pele, but, at the minute, I would rather have a kid that's bang in form and scoring goals, coming off the bench, than any of our other forwards.
All of the alleged weaknesses that you attribute to Cleary could just as easily be attributed to Diangana but he plays a part most weeks. Out of the two I would prefer Cleary just because he could have more of a goal threat. That's all.
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It was a serious question based on your statement:
"if Val doesn't think Cleary can play the role of CF which includes being a trigger for pressing, or deserves a place due to work rate shown he won't get a first team spot"
I'm not saying he's going to change the world or be the next Pele, but, at the minute, I would rather have a kid that's bang in form and scoring goals, coming off the bench, than any of our other forwards.
All of the alleged weaknesses that you attribute to Cleary could just as easily be attributed to Diangana but he plays a part most weeks. Out of the two I would prefer Cleary just because he could have more of a goal threat. That's all.
Fair enough, we'd all love to see an academy kid come on and score winners. We've seen it before with Saido (who possibly wouldn't have got in Val's side either, but that's just conjecture). Guess it comes down to whether you trust the managers judgemen.
BTW that wasn't my statement, it was a quote from another poster on the site who'd seen him play. I havnt.
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I've not seen Cleary play live, only video clips, but he doesn't seem to be a poaching type centre forward, certainly not in the Dwight Gayle mould.
Most of the goals I've seen from him remind me of Ishmael Miller & possibly Lukaku, not really sure how those types of player fit into VI's playing methods.
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Reading the posts on this subject there is a repetitive noise
Cleary, lukaku,Miller, Messi,maradona ,Gayle…..non would fit “vals styleâ€â€¦maybe we should question whether “vals style†fits wba?
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Reading the posts on this subject there is a repetitive noise
Cleary, lukaku,Miller, Messi,maradona ,Gayle…..non would fit “vals styleâ€â€¦maybe we should question wether “vals style†fits wba?
wrong question, it should be "how / when does WBA FC fully adapt to Valball"
he has 3.5 years left to complete the project, so strap yourselves in,
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My nan doesn't suit Valball, but, put her in the exact same positions as Huggy and I wager she would have more than one goal to her name.
The U23's play the same system as the first team and Cleary is scoring so how can it be that he doesn't suit? Again, not championing him as the saviour but, at this moment in time, the benchmark is so low, I don't see how he can do worse. ???
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I've not seen Cleary play live, only video clips, but he doesn't seem to be a poaching type centre forward, certainly not in the Dwight Gayle mould.
Most of the goals I've seen from him remind me of Ishmael Miller & possibly Lukaku, not really sure how those types of player fit into VI's playing methods.
From what little I've seen Dike is very similar to Lukaku and Miller and seems to fit VI's system very well. If he can then so can Cleary.
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From what little I've seen Dike is very similar to Lukaku and Miller and seems to fit VI's system very well. If he can then so can Cleary.
Blimey....in the space of about four posts Cleary has gone from a 17 year old with 10 under 23 appearances to the next LUKAKU!!! No wonder clubs are interested 😁
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My nan doesn't suit Valball, but, put her in the exact same positions as Huggy and I wager she would have more than one goal to her name.
The U23's play the same system as the first team and Cleary is scoring so how can it be that he doesn't suit? Again, not championing him as the saviour but, at this moment in time, the benchmark is so low, I don't see how he can do worse. ???
A lot of his goals come when he plays in Grants position rather than down the middle. For the central position Faal is probably ahead of Cleary
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wrong question, it should be "how / when does WBA FC fully adapt to Valball"
he has 3.5 years left to complete the project, so strap yourselves in,
My modicum of hope is based on the majority of contracts are never seen out.
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A lot of his goals come when he plays in Grants position rather than down the middle. For the central position Faal is probably ahead of Cleary
He’s not though is he because he isn’t scoring Cleary is. Sometimes it’s just about confidence and momentum
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He’s not though is he because he isn’t scoring Cleary is. Sometimes it’s just about confidence and momentum
The other night was his first game for about 6 weeks also remember which one of the two was on the bench and indeed came on v Arsenal
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This Manager must be very close to losing his job.
How can you conjure a loss v a team as poor as Derby?
3 centre backs?
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Absolute hate this guy, a terrible manager who should be nowhere near this club.
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We could of had wilder for free cooper for free and we paid 4million for coco the clown
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Do the club a favour and go
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Get him out
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Get rid of this bloke. Clueless
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Times got to be up soon? 1 goal in the last 3 games - all vs bottom 4 opposition. No sign of any training ground improvement to our attacking play and the arrogant robot of a man doesn't feel the need to make any tweaks to the way we play or the lune up he picks.
Awful football, awful tactics, awful manager. Happy to see him sacked now - I don't see the alternatives doing a lot better but atleast we might be entertaining for a bit. This guys a prat.
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He’s GOT TO GO. He’s just not up to it.
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Clueless clown, please be gone by tonight you useless excuse for a manager
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Do the club a favour and go
The club is on a downward spiral and has been since many fans called for Bilic to be sacked. We are where the club deserves to be.
Don’t think for one minute that they are likely to make the correct appointment if Ismael were to leave.
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Stubborness is undoing , he's lost my support now .
Sick of playing players out of position , out of form players and a system that doesn't adapt .
Yes theres a lack of quality in some but the bloke on the sidelines picks the players/system. Set pieces , lofted crosses to nobody every single week .Woeful .
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Stubborness is undoing , he's lost my support now .
Sick of playing players out of position , out of form players and a system that doesn't adapt .
Yes theres a lack of quality in some but the bloke on the sidelines picks the players/system. Set pieces , lofted crosses to nobody every single week .Woeful .
He has not got a bloody clue
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When Val wasn't allowed to do what he wanted due to injuries we won 2 on the trot after an abysmal run. It's almost at the point where I'm wishing for some injuries to force him to change it up. Ludicrous
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I said from day one it was a bad appointment
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Worst team since the Brian Little era and the worst manager since him as well.
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I'm converted😥, dont see this bloke bringing any success for us. You cannot keep sticking to the same Game plan when it's not working.
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Get cowell on here and put it to the public vote
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But I can honestly see us sticking with him, which is just as frustrating as watching us play. He has managed to make some of our players play awful.
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Playing Livermore again. Playing Furlong again. Not starting TGH for last two games. Making 'like for like' changes. No system changes. Playing 3 CBs (inflexible, rigid CBs) in every game. Killing players like Diangana and Robinson. Overreliance on set pieces, even though we're rubbish. No patterns of play - no triangles - obvious system to get up the pitch and play people in. Not learning lessons.
Do we need to go on?
Just when you think he's learning, he goes back two steps. That Reading game was a huge, huge opportunity for learning: midfielders in the wide CB spots, supporting attacks; seeing TGH flourish; two progressive CMs. What does he do? Go back to his basics.
Rubbish.
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I was given stick on here for saying this bloke is the worst manager since Gould. I admit I forgot pardew but I stand by what I said, this guy is awful.
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There are several signs the man is not learning on the job. There are many mistakes that are glaring, most noticeably:
1) Dropping of Gardner-Hickman when outperforming Furlong.
2) Reinstatement of Livermore, when we had an upswing in results without him.
3) Continuing to give minutes to Hugill, when the man has no quality or confidence.
4) Continually deploying 3 centre backs v limited opposition (and including a 4th in Livermore, who's not really a midfielder any longer).
5) 5 goals in last 9 games, what's he doing with strikers on the training ground?
The only chance he's got is acquiring Dike before the next game and winning the next 2 or 3 on the bounce.
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People saying he got the selection wrong, not sure who they would have chosen. He didn't have many other options, other than getting Fellows and TGH on earlier. The team is crying out for a finisher we haven't got.
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Interesting that Val has not been interviewed after the match on Sky again tonight. Has he run out of excuses or just too embarrassed to face the media?
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Interesting that Val has not been interviewed after the match on Sky again tonight. Has he run out of excuses or just too embarrassed to face the media?
Front 3 not working, need to take our chances etc.
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One point gained from last two games against teams in relegation zone bottom two to boot, only one decent chance created throughout match. Valball is a joke and so is coach, Lia should act now and put us out of our misery and get rid of this idiot.
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Front 3 not working, need to take our chances etc.
I guess we don’t need to hear it again.
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Front 3 not working, need to take our chances etc.
He'd be spot on with that as well.
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He'd be spot on with that as well.
Then why not do something about it? Isn’t that what he’s paid for?
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Interesting that Val has not been interviewed after the match on Sky again tonight. Has he run out of excuses or just too embarrassed to face the media?
Hopefully being sacked.
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worrying how many players are looking worse, what is he doing on the training ground?
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Fellows and TGH deserve to start next game just for a breathe or fresh air. But it won't happen. More chance of the towel being in the starting 11.
Said he likes to play youth but obviously doesn't trust them.
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Dire here. Or something which it sounds like.
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worrying how many players are looking worse, what is he doing on the training ground?
Nothing by the look of it. Snodgrass was right to call him out on his garbage IMO.
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Then why not do something about it? Isn’t that what he’s paid for?
That's all he's got to work with. There's probably no one more who wants to get in a better striker.
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The club are taking a big punt on backing him with a striker. Clearly we need a striker but I’m not convinced that will the game changer everyone thinks it will be.
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Good point. I know we are claiming we havent got any but do not give this guy any money. Just let him have Dike on loan if he wants to come, thats it.
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That's all he's got to work with. There's probably no one more who wants to get in a better striker.
I think it’s going to need far more than any striker we can afford.
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It needs a sports psychologist in with the group of players. They seem half asleep and so slow in making decisions.
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We’ve had 20 shots today so everything is fine and dandy.. ::)
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We’ve had 20 shots today so everything is fine and dandy.. ::)
Looked like some of them had been on the shots that’s for sure!
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He needs to go, his ineptitude is clear to see.
This squad is not great when compared to Prem, but, we are being done by teams at the bottom end of the Champ and the stats back this up in terms of our attacking prowess. "A new striker is the answer then", is the cry! Wrong, this system and philosophy suits none of our front 3, whoever they may be. One more will have no effect.
He is to blame and, as he has no inclination to change, we have to change him.
The players look like they hate playing and that can't be right, surely???
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We’ve had 20 shots today so everything is fine and dandy.. ::)
Which actually is one of the bright spots. I've seen plenty of Albion teams that only managed 5 shots or so a match.
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Using Furlong, Livermore and Hugill when we have better options is an absolute sham.
You do look at the Manager and wonder what he's seeing on the training ground?
Or maybe he's just not that clever?
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Using Furlong, Livermore and Hugill when we have better options is an absolute sham.
You do look at the Manager and wonder what he's seeing on the training ground?
Or maybe he's just not that clever?
Agree with you Greg; shambles. I'm hoping this latest deafest will jolt the manager into action. Bit of a gap now until Cardiff when Mowatt and Grant will be available.
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Can anyone explain to me why he is so reluctant to use player’s from the under 23s especially when he was appointed that was one of his remit’s?
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Can anyone explain to me why he is so reluctant to use player’s from the under 23s especially when he was appointed that was one of his remit’s?
I guess he doesn’t believe they are good enough.
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I guess he doesn’t believe they are good enough.
And yet keeps throwing Hugill on...
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I guess he doesn’t believe they are good enough.
As you say, clearly doesn't have the trust, despite Fellows doing more in 20 mins than Diangana has done for the last 20 games...
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His post match analysis is a joke. Throwing players under the bus despite his dire tactics and saying it’s the same thing over and over again, which is ironic. Absolute clown.
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Too arrogant to question himself. There has been a theme in some of the Albion podcasts I've heard - particularly the liquidator - dropping not so subtle hitns that he has annoyed people behind the scenes. It comes through when you listen to him- he thinks he knows more than he does.
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Arrogant when he has no right to be. Start smashing teams and earn the right. No time for VI anymore.
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I’ve been patient but this situation with the towel is really getting on my wick now ,
It is making the Wimbledon team of Dave Bassett vintage look like football purists . You can use statistics all you like but there is zero quality and anyone who has any quality is being asked to play like a robot .
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Can anyone explain to me why he is so reluctant to use player’s from the under 23s especially when he was appointed that was one of his remit’s?
No is the simple answer, because no one knows I suspect
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We’ve had 20 shots today so everything is fine and dandy.. ::)
Yes, we smashed them on that Xg thing as well....
Well chuffed with that😂
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Which actually is one of the bright spots. I've seen plenty of Albion teams that only managed 5 shots or so a match.
Sorry - but they were not bright spots.
We created one clear cut chance throughout that game. And then Bartley had a header towards the end which the keeper saved well.
That was it.
The rest of those attempts include blocks, Hugill being Hugill and Livermore auditioning for Warley Rugby club.
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Ridiculous of him not to take any blame after the match, instead laying it all on the players desire. Sheer arrogance.
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Sorry - but they were not bright spots.
We created one clear cut chance throughout that game. And then Bartley had a header towards the end which the keeper saved well.
That was it.
The rest of those attempts include blocks, Hugill being Hugill and Livermore auditioning for Warley Rugby club.
Two clear cut chances - Robinson and Livermore
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Sorry - but they were not bright spots.
We created one clear cut chance throughout that game. And then Bartley had a header towards the end which the keeper saved well.
That was it.
The rest of those attempts include blocks, Hugill being Hugill and Livermore auditioning for Warley Rugby club.
You've missed out quite alot there. The crosses that nobody got on the end of, header from Clarke goes over, the offside goal, Hugill had 3 attempts, Dianga had a shot early on, Livermore had a couple blocked.
The problem is we haven't got finishers, who are clinical and accurate.
The chances we had ought to be enough for an average team to score from. I remember many an Albion team, Pulis's being just one of them, who often managed just 3 or 4 chances a game. If we were creating that number, things would be much worse.
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'Wake up' - Valerian Ismael issues stark warning to West Brom players after Derby defeat
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/12/27/wake-up---valerian-ismael-issues-stark-warning-to-west-brom-players-after-derby-defeat/
Val’s upset!
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'Wake up' - Valerian Ismael issues stark warning to West Brom players after Derby defeat
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2021/12/27/wake-up---valerian-ismael-issues-stark-warning-to-west-brom-players-after-derby-defeat/
Val’s upset!
I applaud him
About time he gave the players a reality check
Majority of the players are mentally weak and have been for years
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I applaud him
About time he gave the players a reality check
Majority of the players are mentally weak and have been for years
First rule of management should be to look in the mirror, first of all, and secondly review your process to ensure it is fit for purpose. Only once this has been established should you turn to your team.
Until he sorts the first two, no amount of personnel changes will make much of a difference.
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Yeah, well, what do you expect when you tell certain players that they will play no matter what if they are fit. He's the source of the problem.
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Val has had this squad for five months , how can he have no ownership of the issue. If the players have a weak mentality did that just happen? i watched the game and it was horrible for 90 mins. We created chances but the quality of football on show was terrible, Furlong has gone backwards as has Robinson and Townsend. Val needs to take some responsibility for this, we just played Derby without a number of their normal 11 and rooted to the bottom.
I am not a fan of VI but I won't bother suggesting he should be replaced because if we were going to do that we should have done it in November to give a new manager the January transfer window. I am left hoping for Dike plus another and a miracle.
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He won’t survive this now. The players may be playing poorly but you need to look at what you’re asking and if the players believe in it.
Calling them all out when he’s already had run ins with certain players will just make them down tools.
The board may as well act fast and nip this stupid idea in the bud.
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Too late ! If he goes say after the Cardiff game how are you going to sign players when you don’t have a manager ? My own personal,preference would be to get rid of half a dozen of these players first
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Personally, I don’t think he should be berating players as actions speak louder than words, he should give some of the kids a run in the first team, I’m sure they couldn’t do any worse
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He won’t survive this now. The players may be playing poorly but you need to look at what you’re asking and if the players believe in it.
Calling them all out when he’s already had run ins with certain players will just make them down tools.
The board may as well act fast and nip this stupid idea in the bud.
As has been proven many times in football, chopping and changing managers every year is a recipe for downward spiral. Once the club appoints a manager it has to back him through one or two transfer windows to allow him to build his own squad. Then it’s fair to judge him. Nothing will convince me that we shouldn’t be 10-12 points better off with even a half decent striker. Would we be hearing all this nonsense now if we were 6 points clear at the top? People moaning about the quality of football? Of course not. Our fans are far too fickle.
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I suppose you have to allow for it being his second language, but to go down the desire route ("not enough passion") is all very "Radio WM phone in with Franksy".
It is rarely as simple as passion, it's a system that does work, players who aren't good enough to play in the way they are being asked to, it's the lack of variety, the lack of being able to pass in triangles in the final third, the unwillingness to make material changes to the set up. We are yet to see Diangana out wide left are we? The only time I can think he got an assist. This is just one example of the managers rigidity.
Over half a season in now and I can't tell what Ismael's philosophy is other than a mid pitch press and balls into the box (always lofted, never along the floor).
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No good him coming out & criticising the players to then pick the same bunch next week. TGH & Fellows need to be rewarded for their cameo’s today. If we go into the next game with the usual suspects like Furlong, Livermore, Diangana & Robinson then he deserves all the criticism that will come his way.
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I've been quick to criticise VI but these senior professionals need a bloody rocket up their backsides. I'd make a point and drop a few. They really need a wake up call. At least the youngsters will give you 100%. Some of these players are robbing a living at the moment. Maybe they should go work for the minimum wage for a week or two. Fuming tonight.
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He needs to go. It’s utterly miserable to watch.
It’s pointless him being on the touch line, he may aswell hand his team sheet in at 2pm, tell the lino what subs he’ll make after an hour and go home because that’s his sole contribution
He’s wrecking Grady Diangana’s career to boot.
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An interesting view point from Glen Murray on Sky was that getting a striker in won't solve all the problems. He said the quality of chances created was poor.
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Problem runs deeper than bringing in striker and if Ishmael can’t see that does he really deserve to be head coach? I think not.
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An int we resting view point from Glen Murray on Sky was that gearing a striker in won't solve all the problems. He said r he quality of chances created was poor.
He’s not wrong either..
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He reminds me of the episode when Southampton signed George weah’s cousin…..did he win a raffle to manage us?
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He’s not wrong either..
I never understand this waffle of 22 shots with 4 on target when we know in the majority of games its 2 shots that have actually troubled or should trouble the keeper.
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Now he has called the players out two things are most likely to happen, either the board sign 16 players so that he gets all he wants or the squad down tools and he is gone.
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He needs to go. It’s utterly miserable to watch.
It’s pointless him being on the touch line, he may aswell hand his team sheet in at 2pm, tell the lino what subs he’ll make after an hour and go home because that’s his sole contribution
He’s wrecking Grady Diangana’s career to boot.
I can't defend Val on so many things but when was the last time Grady played consistently well? Bilic and Allardyce struggled to get a tune out of him since his loan spell.
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Problems run pretty deep for me. So many experienced players don't look interested and aren't very good. Who can we get who will come with no money to spend :)
I do remember many on here turning up their noses at the likes of Wilder....
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I can't defend Val on so many things but when was the last time Grady played consistently well? Bilic and Allardyce struggled to get a tune out of him since his loan spell.
So why keep picking him. Fellows did more in 10 mins than Grady has in 2 seasons.
Same with TGH and Furlong /Livermore.
Does Val even go to training
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Now he has called the players out two things are most likely to happen, either the board sign 16 players so that he gets all he wants or the squad down tools and he is gone.
Don't think he's called all the players out.
If you train all week with a style, then some players decide to do their own thing, those players deserve calling out.
Let's see who he picks on Sunday.
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So why keep picking him. Fellows did more in 10 mins than Grady has in 2 seasons.
Same with TGH and Furlong /Livermore.
Does Val even go to training
I agree with that :)
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Think he's right to call the players out. Reports suggested they have already had a major internal drains up after a previous performance. Bilic often commented about the intensity or lack of it. Apart from an initial switched on 'honeymoon period' at the start of each managers reign, we've been incapable of stringing together a series of games where we show sustained intensity. There are clearly tactical issues to address but the players have to play as though they are desperate to win every game.
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Now he has called the players out two things are most likely to happen, either the board sign 16 players so that he gets all he wants or the squad down tools and he is gone.
Wishful thinking, I doubt players will down tools
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Don't think he's called all the players out.
Some of his comments from tonight - clear he’s questioning all of them with his frustrations.
“The players need to ask where they want to be in a year, in two years," the boss continued.
"Why do they want to do the job?
"The consistency is not enough. We have conceded seven goals like the one at Derby this season.
"We need to score more goals.
“I spoke to the players like that after, at some point I have to tell the truth.
“I’ll protect them if they do the right things. But this was not enough.
“The problem is the players need to wake up - we can’t continue like that.
“The players were disappointed and upset about losing, but at some point you have to speak and say how things are.â€
Yes, but again I don’t want to hide behind the transfer window, the game was tonight, the chance was tonight. The players are responsible for that performance.
There was a lack of mentality and quality from the first minute. It’s all about desire, when you have the chance of a top two spot, you need to show it from the first minute.
Derby didn’t shoot once at goal again, and we make the mistake. The goal we conceded was embarrassing and ridiculous, it’s not enough.
The mentality was not right for the game. You need to show the winning mentality. Last week at Barnsley, it was missed chances - tonight, again, we missed the chance again to jump to where we want to be. We deserve to be where we are at the minute.
We want to change this, but players have to take responsibility for their own performance. It’s not enough - as simple as that.
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He's right about Derby not shooting at goal - why then did he insist on keeping 3 CH's, 2 wing backs and 2 defensive midfielders on then? Why were his only changes like for like?
I'm really disappointed in his comments - this performance was no different to many under him. He sets us up to play a certain way and when that doesn't work, carries on with it. He's to blame for that, not the players. What's the saying, "a foolish man is one that carries on doing the same things but expects different results"? Something like that.
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He talks about where the players want to be in 1 or 2 years.
He's still picking Furlong, Livermore and Hugill.
In 2 years those players will be at Walsall, Rochdale and Hartlepool.
Their lack of ability will dictate it.
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He's right about Derby not shooting at goal - why then did he insist on keeping 3 CH's, 2 wing backs and 2 defensive midfielders on then? Why were his only changes like for like?
I'm really disappointed in his comments - this performance was no different to many under him. He sets us up to play a certain way and when that doesn't work, carries on with it. He's to blame for that, not the players. What's the saying, "a foolish man is one that carries on doing the same things but expects different results"? Something like that.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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I know I am in an ever shrinking minority but I'm still with Ismael. I must preface this by saying his style of football is not my preferred way to play the game. I absolutely get the frustrations about the style in particular but also the lack of goals, lack of adaptability and the predictability of subs and selections too, I'm not saying that all is rosey.
In defence of Ismael, he has given us a blueprint and way to play which we have been crying out for, this should make recruitment more efficient. We didn't do a huge amount of recruitment in the summer as he looked to work with most of the squad, remember players like Zohore were involved early on.
Our league position isn't the worst although we are behingthe two points a game required for automatic promotion so we will need to go on a really good run at some point. He has shown that he is capable of that with us early in the season and with Barnsley too.
Whilst the attack is quite regimented, the defence is very good. We don't allow many shots on our goal and generally look comfortable, this certainly bodes well going into the second half of the season. Whilst the attack isn't the most creative we are creating chances and certainly more chances than the opposition, a goalscorer, confidence and the law of averages will change this.
I'm not seeing a broken team like others. One that needs improving, yes one that is underachieving, probably yes, but one with a solid base with which to build on.
I will also say that Ismael is using youngsters, I know people are frustrated that Gardner-Hickman hasn't started the last few (for me he'd start ahead of Furlong at wing back) but he is blooding them, for which he deserves credit in my opinion.
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So why keep picking him. Fellows did more in 10 mins than Grady has in 2 seasons.
Same with TGH and Furlong /Livermore.
Does Val even go to training
There are managers that win the champions league without going to training 😀
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The Athletic, this morning, are suggesting that VI calling out his players is actually part of a plan by VI. The players are either going to get on board and we start winning or completely down tools. I'd say the latter is more likely sadly.
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VI has had a go at the mentality of the players. Which of us haven't done that over the last few seasons? We've called them bottlers, when did we last win a "big game?"
He's probably right and for that reason I have some sympathy for him.
But he's not helping himself with his team selections.
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Some of his comments from tonight - clear he’s questioning all of them with his frustrations.
“The players need to ask where they want to be in a year, in two years," the boss continued.
"Why do they want to do the job?
"The consistency is not enough. We have conceded seven goals like the one at Derby this season.
"We need to score more goals.
“I spoke to the players like that after, at some point I have to tell the truth.
“I’ll protect them if they do the right things. But this was not enough.
“The problem is the players need to wake up - we can’t continue like that.
“The players were disappointed and upset about losing, but at some point you have to speak and say how things are.â€
Yes, but again I don’t want to hide behind the transfer window, the game was tonight, the chance was tonight. The players are responsible for that performance.
There was a lack of mentality and quality from the first minute. It’s all about desire, when you have the chance of a top two spot, you need to show it from the first minute.
Derby didn’t shoot once at goal again, and we make the mistake. The goal we conceded was embarrassing and ridiculous, it’s not enough.
The mentality was not right for the game. You need to show the winning mentality. Last week at Barnsley, it was missed chances - tonight, again, we missed the chance again to jump to where we want to be. We deserve to be where we are at the minute.
We want to change this, but players have to take responsibility for their own performance. It’s not enough - as simple as that.
IMO, he's mainly calling out Kipre & Johnstone there.
Appreciate we're not scoring goals, but we didn't need to lose that game & several others this season from stupid mistakes.
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The Athletic, this morning, are suggesting that VI calling out his players is actually part of a plan by VI. The players are either going to get on board and we start winning or completely down tools. I'd say the latter is more likely sadly.
I think The Athletic like to write flowery journalism when in reality, he's moaning at the players to deflect from his own shortcomings.
I thought it was awful when he didn't send Johnstone up at 1-0 down a few months back, yet did 0-0 at Barnsley. If you can't see why that's fundamentally flawed as a manager then you need a strong look at yourself. The same goes for using Hugill consistently.
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Be interesting to see how many fans turn up for the next home game. He’s lost the players that’s for sure, he’s pretty much lost the fans as well, he’s got minimal support I’d say and if we don’t get a goal early it will be toxic very quickly. Go behind and he’ll have felt nothing like it. The board won’t stick with him, no matter the contract.
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He won't change it but I think we can say the 3 up top doesn't work nor the two in the middle .We don't need three CB's either at this level , forcing players into unnatural positions long term doesn't work .
No issue with something different but make sure you have the correct players first which we don't .
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He picks the team which has underperformed for at least 10 matches we have a talented group of youngsters yet they get few opportunities, the onus is on him the clue is in the title Manager we have problems it's his job to sort it out, as others have said repeating the same mistakes makes him look incompetent.
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Supporters are amazing people ! Many moaned on here and elsewhere when he played the kids against the Arsenal when they wanted more senior players in ‘ and give it a proper go ‘ , and now many are moaning because he isn’t playing more than the odd one or two when he has to !!
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Supporters are amazing people ! Many moaned on here and elsewhere when he played the kids against the Arsenal when they wanted more senior players in ‘ and give it a proper go ‘ , and now many are moaning because he isn’t playing more than the odd one or two when he has to !!
Don't think you can really compare playing against top draw players to the weakest second tier we have been in for years . There's no excuse to be picking a hugely out of form Furlong when T.G.H was outstanding ( granted at 3 different positions ) .
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Supporters are amazing people ! Many moaned on here and elsewhere when he played the kids against the Arsenal when they wanted more senior players in ‘ and give it a proper go ‘ , and now many are moaning because he isn’t playing more than the odd one or two when he has to !!
A bit different playing a whole team of youngsters against a quality team than playing 3 or 4 against Derby pal.
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Chris Lepkowski Tweeted this after the match
“Appreciate the limitations of this West Brom side, but also struggle to see any progress.
“Big part of coaching is improving players, improving a team.
“Any WBA head coach has to know how to manage upwards. Not sure VI is doing any of these things. Feels like an existence right now.â€
Can't say that I disagree with most of his tweet, but the text I've highlighted reminds me of the old adage "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" and, with this lot, you never will imv
We did have a Head Coach that was starting to weed them out, but even he could see what a hopeless and hapless task it was going to be with all the baggage the club currently finds itself lumbered with.
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At Barnsley, he was slotted into a system already in place and had limitations in what he could do. And overachieved with what he had to hand.
Here, you would think he would be unshackled and do things his way, using his methods but at present is still playing the same way at Barnsley. Dare I say scared to change it because if it worked at Barnsley then why not here?
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I normally calm down the morning after but not this time, Val’s rigidity and stubbornness have now become ineptitude. He really doesn’t see the game, he quotes stats and analysis but he just doesn’t SEE what’s happening in front of him.
It’s ok to call out the players if you are willing to assess your own performance first but he seems too arrogant to do so.
Rooney is a complete novice (among other things) but got his game plan and, more importantly, his subs spot on whereas Val just did what he always does and it failed. Again.
If we give him money we may well scrape the play offs and even promotion, but I just fail to see any long term future with this style of rigid, toxic management. It will just split the fans Pulis style and we will be very limited in the type of player we can attract.
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I normally calm down the morning after but not this time, Val’s rigidity and stubbornness have now become ineptitude. He really doesn’t see the game, he quotes stats and analysis but he just doesn’t SEE what’s happening in front of him.
It’s ok to call out the players if you are willing to assess your own performance first but he seems too arrogant to do so.
Rooney is a complete novice (among other things) but got his game plan and, more importantly, his subs spot on whereas Val just did what he always does and it failed. Again.
If we give him money we may well scrape the play offs and even promotion, but I just fail to see any long term future with this style of rigid, toxic management. It will just split the fans Pulis style and we will be very limited in the type of player we can attract.
I'm against early sackings and for giving any new manager time but after 24 games I see little progress or more importantly any flexibility from VI .
Not sure what the answer is but I now feel it isn't VI sadly.
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I’m still amazed he opted for Adam Reach in his front three. If that’s him showing his flexibility then he’s taking the ****. No reason why Fellows or Tulloch could not have been given the opportunity given it’s abundantly clear Reach is not an inverted forward.
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I don’t think there’s a problem with the 3-4-3, although I generally don’t like 3 at the back formations.
We are controlling games, generally restricting changes and not being overrun in the middle (that’s happened twice at Swansea and Fulham). We also aren’t just lumping it forwards like we used to.
Our problems are mainly in the final third where the 3 forwards and two wide players don’t take advantage of good positions. Either by putting chances away, a final ball, cross or even turning frequent decent good positions in to great ones. The two central midfielders could do more, but they are less wasteful than the front three and wide two.
Sadly, at the moment we don’t have much different on the bench. Most changes would be changes for changes sake rather than any of those replacements having justified or proven they should be in. The one exception is TGH who can be disappointed right now.
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I support big Val.
He's not in the job to be liked get that straight, no manager needs to be loved.
For the older guys, was Clough liked was Fergie liked?
He knows what type of player needs for this team.
He's right to call these players out.
Kipper has improved, I blame Johnstone for that goal in this formation it will happen sometimes.
I think when O'Shea returns he'll go straight back into back three with Kipper and Clarke.
We need Mowett back with Molumby
We need a central goalscoring striker like Dike
Then 2 of 3 wide of him
I would replace Furlong with GH
That would be a very good team for me to challenge top spot
These players must do as they are instructed, they train everyday under this system, they get help with their mentality, diet fitness etc they know what they should be doing, there's no excuses for me.
I prefer 352 but Val has a plan I'm backing him
Don't forget that the views on here are only a tiny proportion of our fans views, I think we have to find that goalscorer let's hope we can because when we do that will give the other players the confidence to relax and try things themselves, were not far off being a team capable of promotion in my view.
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Supporters are amazing people ! Many moaned on here and elsewhere when he played the kids against the Arsenal when they wanted more senior players in ‘ and give it a proper go ‘ , and now many are moaning because he isn’t playing more than the odd one or two when he has to !!
kids or senior players it will not make any difference its the style of play .he could have the best players at his disposal and it still would not work hoofing high in the air and[ hit too long for the front men] and head tennis most of the time .and dont mention the corners straight into the keepers hands or fouls against in a crowded box .theres only outcome from that awful football and lucky if 2 shots are on target all game
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I support big Val.
He's not in the job to be liked get that straight, no manager needs to be loved.
For the older guys, was Clough liked was Fergie liked?
He knows what type of player needs for this team.
He's right to call these players out.
Kipper has improved, I blame Johnstone for that goal in this formation it will happen sometimes.
I think when O'Shea returns he'll go straight back into back three with Kipper and Clarke.
We need Mowett back with Molumby
We need a central goalscoring striker like Dike
Then 2 of 3 wide of him
I would replace Furlong with GH
That would be a very good team for me to challenge top spot
These players must do as they are instructed, they train everyday under this system, they get help with their mentality, diet fitness etc they know what they should be doing, there's no excuses for me.
I prefer 352 but Val has a plan I'm backing him
Don't forget that the views on here are only a tiny proportion of our fans views, I think we have to find that goalscorer let's hope we can because when we do that will give the other players the confidence to relax and try things themselves, were not far off being a team capable of promotion in my view.
Glad I am not alone in my support of Big Val
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I've just moved this from the Dike thread: he might walk if he doesn't get Dike, and if he does and its a screw up he could be gone by the end of Feb. I was glad when he was appointed instead of Wilder, who I thought was stodgy and predictable, but I think I was wrong. They say they use scientific analysis a lot these days, well he's like one of those scientists who can't let go of a pet theory even when the evidence is stacking up against them, and the evidence is stacking up that his plan has been worked out by the other teams.
To mix metaphors, what worked at Barnsley as unexpected Blitzkreig is turning into a predictable Stalingrad here.
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I support Val but he needs to take a step back & evaluate some of his decisions. He again went for experience yesterday starting Reach out of position over Fellows who looked lively when he came on, why is he picking the out of form Furlong over TGH? He needs to start trusting some of these youth players the established players such as Diangana, Furlong & Robinson need a kick up the backside if they aren’t performing they shouldn’t play.
I don’t think we are a million miles away, I don’t think the 3-4-3 is the crux of the problems, I think with a midfield of Mowatt, Mulumby, TGH & Townsend you’ll see more creativity with a number 9 who knows where the net is will change this team. It’s now up to Ismael to make the changes that need to be made if he doesn’t he should pay with his job.
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I can cope with the results, the league position, the differences in performance, especially with the player limitations we have, it's the lack of attempting anything new that's killing it for me.
Derby was just another example of us being in control, struggling to create clear chances, but just constantly attempting the same old tactics.
We aren't suddenly going to make Hugill into a star CF but we can change our approach to see if something else works.
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First rule of management should be to look in the mirror, first of all, and secondly review your process to ensure it is fit for purpose. Only once this has been established should you turn to your team.
Until he sorts the first two, no amount of personnel changes will make much of a difference.
If he does what he will see is somebody determined to do well with a stubborn over my dead body streak , not always a good look , but something sadly lacking in most of our bunch of good time Charlie’s
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So without appearing trite, over the last 24 hours, I've watched one of the worst Albion teams/set ups "play" since the Bobby Gould/Don Howe days, England cricketers play abjectly and with no bottle to lose the Ashes and tested positive for Covid 19... who says bad luck doesn't come in threes?
Two of these come down to bad management, coaching, attitude and a lack of ability.
I'm 63 years old, have been a Season ticket holder since I was 6, put £000's in as part of the 11 year debenture during the days when the club needed bailing out under Paul Thompson - and yesterday I actually turned the match off when we went behind because I 100% knew we were not going to score. I hate the football we play now and just do not want to go anymore. How rubbish is that.
This Manager has to go, his whole philosophy and attitude stinks.
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This is from Steve Madeley (Athletic) on twitter about 3 hours ago, pretty well sums it up for me
Steve Madeley
@SteveMadeley78
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3h
The point Ismael often makes about individual errors costing Albion is spot on. How many opponents have really troubled them consistently in general play? Stoke, Fulham and Swansea are the only ones that come to mind.
The problems are creative/attacking/aesthetic ones. #WBA
Even the Fulham loss was started by a gift from Snodgrass
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I support big Val.
He's not in the job to be liked get that straight, no manager needs to be loved.
For the older guys, was Clough liked was Fergie liked?
He knows what type of player needs for this team.
He's right to call these players out.
Kipper has improved, I blame Johnstone for that goal in this formation it will happen sometimes.
I think when O'Shea returns he'll go straight back into back three with Kipper and Clarke.
We need Mowett back with Molumby
We need a central goalscoring striker like Dike
Then 2 of 3 wide of him
I would replace Furlong with GH
That would be a very good team for me to challenge top spot
These players must do as they are instructed, they train everyday under this system, they get help with their mentality, diet fitness etc they know what they should be doing, there's no excuses for me.
I prefer 352 but Val has a plan I'm backing him
Don't forget that the views on here are only a tiny proportion of our fans views, I think we have to find that goalscorer let's hope we can because when we do that will give the other players the confidence to relax and try things themselves, were not far off being a team capable of promotion in my view.
I am also of this view. My own experience has led me to believe that there are also many more of what might be called a quiet, if not silent majority of our supporters, who would also tend to agree. Most of whom tend not to bother to post on electronic media forums, even pretty decent ones like this.
Take out those posters on here who blame the manager for everything and seem to have forgotten that we have not played the sort of football they would like to see since the early part of the promotion season under Bilic. And that this team was then blessed with the creativity, skills and sheer football brains of players like Periera and Krovi. Take out those who wanted Wilder, or the bloke from Norwich, and decided from before the off that VI was not for them, and have been regularly posting negative opinions, and there are still a fair few on here who seem to understand what VI is trying to do. They can see that this team does not have skills and intelligence in abundance, is error prone in all positions, and at present is in transition, from getting stuffed most weeks by three or four goals, to trying to make up for their collective lack of high level ability by working harder for each other as a team. With players as limited in football intelligence as the ones we have there is not much room for any plan B. They are not likely to be able to adapt if they cannot, or will not adhere to the simpler and probably equally effective if carried out properly, plan A. There is no point in clouding the issue.
We have a much improved defence who despite losing key players to long term injuries, still tend not to give too many chances for opponents except when the brainfart kicks in and unforced errors occur. Unfortunately they have most often occurred in key games and we have paid a high price. We have not seemed to have had much good luck in games at times either, but it is true that the harder you work and the more you practise the luckier you get. However we have also suffered unduly from some really poor refereeing, and we cannot do a lot about that.
Having said this, at the halfway point we are still in touch with the leaders in this division, we have blooded a couple of young players who really do look as if their inclusion improves the team. One of whom is in serious contention to be first choice, and the other who looked to have the pace and ability to lift the crowd and the team as a regular impact sub at the very least for the time being. I cannot see that his management style is not fit for process. But it may not be developing as quickly as some, including me would like.
VI for me needs time to show that he is the boss, the man who shall be obeyed. He has so far shown loyalty and support for his players but now it is time for the hard man I am sure he can be, to show his face. if that means sticking firmly to his own beliefs and appearing somewhat inflexible, then so be it. This club needs a rock not a butterfly. VI has to be given the chance to show that he can be that rock and build the team to where it has a chance of playing in the EPL. Not being promoted this season would not be the end of the world for me as it would not be sustainable, and I'm not sure I could take being beaten nearly every week yet again, although the revenue would be useful (essential actually) if spent entirely on team development. That is the problem: we need to go up for the money to build a team to compete, but cannot hoped to remain there as we are at present.
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After reading comments on Facebook/Twitter how refreshing to see some measured comments on here. For me we aren’t a million miles away and this is a pivotal window for us. We either back Val or give up on him. He needs several players who will embrace his style so we can stop playing compromise football. We are much better out of possession and close down quickly but when we get the ball the intensity dies. We desperately need 2 front men who can score goals as that’s where 90% of our issues are. I hope he gets the backing he needs.
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Be interesting to see how many fans turn up for the next home game. He’s lost the players that’s for sure, he’s pretty much lost the fans as well, he’s got minimal support I’d say and if we don’t get a goal early it will be toxic very quickly. Go behind and he’ll have felt nothing like it. The board won’t stick with him, no matter the contract.
I support the team so will be there if the game goes ahead, as I am sure will many others. So am not sure that the attendance will be the right yardstick by which to measure things.
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I can cope with the results, the league position, the differences in performance, especially with the player limitations we have, it's the lack of attempting anything new that's killing it for me.
Derby was just another example of us being in control, struggling to create clear chances, but just constantly attempting the same old tactics.
We aren't suddenly going to make Hugill into a star CF but we can change our approach to see if something else works.
All he seems to do in response to being stalemated by teams playing without anyone really pushing up front is to push Kipre and/or Clarke forward so the two DMs can try to go further forward too, so we end up with a CH in midfield. Take off a flipping CH and bring on a midfielder FFS! And don't say we haven't got any, TGH was getting splinters for 75mins or whatever yesterday, and he looks the part there.
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Historically I always want to give the manager time and be patient. I still support Val but some of his decisions are head scratchers...
As many on the board have said he seems to have abandoned his press or the players just don't fancy it. There is little energy, it seems slow and ponderous. In light of this I don't understand why he wouldn't play TGH or even Fellows (whats wrong with Tulloch?). They at least play forward and look hungry.
A lot of the players Val has he has inherited and they just aren't that great. People in the media talk about the cost of the squad and the wages but paying big wages doesn't mean they are good players....
We are much better in defence under Val but clearly going forward we are rubbish. A few people have mentioned Bilic's promotion season and one huge difference is Pereira. He was the real difference maker, we have no-one like him.
We also have such a wafer thin squad, we missed Mowatt and Grant yesterday.
Don't see a problem with him calling out players. All the fans can see it and we always want managers to speak their mind....until we don't :)
It feels like we are at a crossroads. Back the manager and be patient or replace him.
Some of the comparisons to previous managers seem unfair. You always have to weigh the quality of player available to the manager.
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I am in the minority but i still back Val.
These players have seen off a likeable manager in Bilic and a proven experienced one in Allardyce, if they are going through the motions, dont like Val, etc, etc then i am glad he has called them out and the sooner they are gone the better.
Val did say early on it would take 3-4 windows and he is being proven right, he has barely been able to do anything with this squad so far and has had to probably button his lip a bit knowing he will sadly have to use them.
People keep saying he has to adapt to the players, i think they showed that when the manager has changed to suit them, they end up letting then down, the pitifull excuse for an attempt at survival proves that, Big Sam tried to get them playing a different way and we got battered each week and he had to backtrack.
Moors, Bilic and Allardyce have all brought players in as foundation for their squads but before they could add to it, they have been sacked or left, we badly need somebody who is going to be in charge and stamp out players seeming to play only when they fancy it.
I dont like the idea of this style of football for the next few years but i also think when you give a manager a four year deal to sort things out, you have to give them a fair crack of the whip, i would imagine the style would be a lot more enjoyable when he has his own players who actually want to play his way and not give in when things get tough, sadly it will take a few windows to get to that stage and i hope he is given that time.
It it a tough watch at times and val does appear very stubborn but i also think so of that may be to send a message that its his way and he isnt going the same route as those before him and letting the players dictate things.
As said previous, this group of players are at about their maximum level, mid to top End championsholip and although some can step up, the rest of them are at their best or will decline very soon so if we want to progress, they need to be moved on and a manager given time to replace and give us an identity.
Val does confuse me at times, i know everyone wants TGH to play and so do i but so far i have seen he should play cm, right back or right wing, even if he plays one of those roles it still leaves two players people want replaced in the other roles!
If and its a big if we do go up, we would only have a chance by being good defensively, teams who score plenty in this league dont often manage to do it the league above, thats why i think Val is not for changing, he wants a system and us to master it, build from the back.
I was very concerned the start of the season as we seemed open but as he has learnt as he goes and we have two decent footballers in the back 3 with Kipre and Clarke, and they can play out from the back, no coincidence we do try and play a bit more football.
I think Furlong had credit in the bank from the first couple of months of the season but he must be on his last bit now as he has been poor and i think TGH should be in for him, Furlong is an instinct player, now we have more of the ball and he has time to think, he struggles.
In midfield, Snodgrass is obviously out of favour but contributed little when he has played, that leaves Moloumby, Mowatt and Livermore and so we arent blessed with options or a real creative player.
Attacking wise, i can see why we would a Woodrow as well as Dike, we were fine start of the season as it was new and our players looked decent, once it became more of a battle they have gone missing.
Robinsons strength is he is a nuisance to the opposition, he forces errors with his intensity, however he doesnt seem that player and hasnt for a while, apparently he has fell out with Val, if he has to be sold to get funds then so be it.
Same applies to Diangana, its been 18 months since he returned from injury and its just not happening, again if we had to sell him or Robinson to get funds then so be it.
Hugill i think has a 1 in 3 scoring record elsewhere so can see why we went for him as he is physical and different to our other strikers, we actually create more chances when he is on the pitch, sadly some fall to him but i dont think he is anywhere near as bad as made out, its just one of those moves that hasnt worked out and probably best he goes back but as a club we do seem to have a knack of signing players who scored goal prior to signing for us - sinclair, vydra, rosenberg, anelka, diange spring to mind!
I dont think we will ever have a manager all fans agree on but one thing we do need is an identity and plan, i think Val has that and would like to see him given time and backing to implement it otherwise i can see us having these same conversations every six months.
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Interesting that he used the "pump down for golf " analogy before the Derby game.
I've thought for some time now that he needs to teach the players to put backspin on the overhead through ball, so that it sits up when it hits the ground rather than shooting forward.
Darren Moore was really good at it, to great effect.
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Not a fan but at this point it is poor timing to change coach now. worrying that the atmosphere in the changing room is supposedly turning sour, hope this does not stop players joining in January.
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Here is an interesting article about the 3:4:3 formation, looking at this, I don't think we're doing a lot wrong.
https://www.soccercoachingpro.com/3-4-3-formation/ (https://www.soccercoachingpro.com/3-4-3-formation/)
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The system itself isn’t doing a lot wrong. We are dominating the ball and matches. Changing the system is not the answer.
A change in system would be sensible if we needed to try to get more of the ball, get more of the ball in good areas or ger more of our better players on the pitch. None of those are our problem.
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Nothing to do with systems and everything to do with personnel.
Livermore, Hugill and Furlong don't deserve to play, there's nothing in their performance that merits this.
All he's doing is picking his favourites who are popular in the dressing room. So he isn't being the best Manager he can be, and is therefore letting himself down and the fans.
Someone at the club needs to deliver a rocket and say its not good enough.
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The system itself isn’t doing a lot wrong. We are dominating the ball and matches. Changing the system is not the answer.
A change in system would be sensible if we needed to try to get more of the ball, get more of the ball in good areas or ger more of our better players on the pitch. None of those are our problem.
It’s the lack of flexibility, particularly in game which is laughable. Nothing wrong with playing 343, but sticking to it every minute of every game when we can’t break down awful teams in Sunday league stuff.
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Having the best defensive record in the league , having as many shots and chances per game as we are pints to it being down to players ( forwards in particular) not tactics !
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I support big Val.
He's not in the job to be liked get that straight, no manager needs to be loved.
For the older guys, was Clough liked was Fergie liked?
He knows what type of player needs for this team.
He's right to call these players out.
Kipper has improved, I blame Johnstone for that goal in this formation it will happen sometimes.
I think when O'Shea returns he'll go straight back into back three with Kipper and Clarke.
We need Mowett back with Molumby
We need a central goalscoring striker like Dike
Then 2 of 3 wide of him
I would replace Furlong with GH
That would be a very good team for me to challenge top spot
These players must do as they are instructed, they train everyday under this system, they get help with their mentality, diet fitness etc they know what they should be doing, there's no excuses for me.
I prefer 352 but Val has a plan I'm backing him
Don't forget that the views on here are only a tiny proportion of our fans views, I think we have to find that goalscorer let's hope we can because when we do that will give the other players the confidence to relax and try things themselves, were not far off being a team capable of promotion in my view.
Your forgetting Livermore
According to val he will start every game if fit as he’s captain 🤪🤪🤪
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Having the best defensive record in the league , having as many shots and chances per game as we are pints to it being down to players ( forwards in particular) not tactics !
But I've watched every game in full - you make it sound like we're destroying teams and we're simply not. We had one of our best games against Derby for clear chances and we created what, 2? 3 at a push? That's out of 20 shots. We struggle to create because we the tactics of "throw it into the box from out wide" doesn't suit our players.
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I still back val as i am fed up of short termism the same as i backed billic beforehand. All managers are stubborn he is no different. Oshea back in the defence. TGH at right wing back and a dece t centre forward and we will be right in the thick of it.
We need to get rid of hugil and get snodgrass off the books hopefully that allows for us to bring in dike and another decent cm to play with mowatt.
We arent far off. The squad we have fall into overpaid or overrated some in the intersecting elliptical. Run badly for years and its catching up with us. Finish the cleanup and back VI for the season
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It’s the lack of flexibility, particularly in game which is laughable. Nothing wrong with playing 343, but sticking to it every minute of every game when we can’t break down awful teams in Sunday league stuff.
Isn't that the basic merit of the 3-4-3 system that the midfielders can give close support to the attackers when the team has the ball, either by having an overload down the wing or close support by one of the CMs down the middle?
When we don't have the ball the forwards press and the wing backs support the central defenders.
See above coaching link from baggiejohn
Clearly we need a CF.
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Your forgetting Livermore
According to val he will start every game if fit as he’s captain 🤪🤪🤪
I'm sure he rowed back on that a few weeks ago.
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To those saying give him windows and we need a CF, remember he didn’t inherit Hugill
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I'm on the side of backing Val - some comments from people on here whose opinions I value have said a lot that I think and feel on the subject.
I'm frustrated that it's not coming together properly but I think there is a masterplan and I believe we need to give it time and along with that some striking force.
I think the club have bought into a 'we won't fix this in one season' philosophy - rightly so - and for once, for once in the last few years, I would like to see a manager's model develop.
I understand that many of you will think I'm nuts in putting this out there, but that's how I feel. I know the results are dire but a few tweaks could make a real points difference.
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But I've watched every game in full - you make it sound like we're destroying teams and we're simply not. We had one of our best games against Derby for clear chances and we created what, 2? 3 at a push? That's out of 20 shots. We struggle to create because we the tactics of "throw it into the box from out wide" doesn't suit our players.
And how much play and shots did they have ? Yet VI gets slated and Rooney gets hailed as a tactical genius mainly because his players hurled themselves in front of everything coming in their direction . Even the goal came from a sliced attempt at an interception from one of ours .
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we played derby with a lot of players missing, any way you dress it up that was poor and it comes on top of other similar results.
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I think Dexy makes a great point about crowded penalty boxes. It has to be really difficult to hit the target when it's being protected by 10 defenders.
Think I've said before, I don't understand the finer points of tactics, but I would be interested to hear, from those who do, how we can pull defenders from the penalty area.
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we played derby with a lot of players missing, any way you dress it up that was poor and it comes on top of other similar results.
Yes but its at least as much the players being poor as it is the tactics they s the point I’m trying to make ,but with one or two exceptions they are getting a free ride
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The players always go into hiding and let the manager take the heat. Look at the recruitment.
Mowatt
Clarke
Molumby
Hugill
Reach
Bryan (after window shut)
This was our window....
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I think Dexy makes a great point about crowded penalty boxes. It has to be really difficult to hit the target when it's being protected by 10 defenders.
Think I've said before, I don't understand the finer points of tactics, but I would be interested to hear, from those who do, how we can pull defenders from the penalty area.
I counted 5 of our big lumps in the 6 yard box against Derby , are we that lacking in creation ? .
Embarrassing.
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The players always go into hiding and let the manager take the heat. Look at the recruitment.
Mowatt
Clarke
Molumby
Hugill
Reach
Bryan (after window shut)
This was our window....
Apart from Hugill they are all decent players at this level though.
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The players always go into hiding and let the manager take the heat. Look at the recruitment.
Mowatt
Clarke
Molumby
Hugill
Reach
Bryan (after window shut)
This was our window....
Only Mowatt could be classed as above average at this level IMO
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I counted 5 of our big lumps in the 6 yard box against Derby , are we that lacking in creation ? .
Embarrassing.
The article on the 3:4:3 formation which I posted a link to earlier suggests that the 3 at the back lends itself to one of the two outer centre backs moving forward.
I can see why we would have "defenders" in the opposition box in general play.
What I'm talking about though is how our opponents defend by crowding their own penalty area, thus making scoring goals more difficult.
What can we do to pull some of those defenders away?
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Mowatt, Clarke, Molumby, Reach all are decent. If we had decent forwards nobody would be complaining about any of these guys.
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I think Dexy makes a great point about crowded penalty boxes. It has to be really difficult to hit the target when it's being protected by 10 defenders.
Think I've said before, I don't understand the finer points of tactics, but I would be interested to hear, from those who do, how we can pull defenders from the penalty area.
All well & good but when Furlong sails it over everyone’s head and out of play for the 3rd time in the first 45 minutes then we could have 15 players in there it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference. Diangana / Furlongs balls into the box are rubbish we have absolutely no service from the right. When they do finally put a decent ball in our hapless strikers are stood still 5 yards behind where they should be, I don’t think Hugill or Robinson have once gambled on a cross this season.
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What can we do to pull some of those defenders away?
I think an aerial threat in the box may help do this as teams will be less inclined to let us cross the ball, they'll be pushing wide to.stop.the cross thus creating gaps. That said, I feel like we can have some better patterns of play between our wingback and wider forwards.
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SirTonyM does have a point, while they are all perfectly reasonable championship players, only Mowatt look’s like he could take the step up to the next level.
If you sign players who are only comfortable at top 10 championship club level - that’s the level you will finish. Clarke, Molumby will spend most of their careers playing for a Derby/QPR/Boro type club while Reach strikes me more as a Milwall or Blues type player.
It’s a squad that has been filled with Championship players over the last 3 years. There is very little evidence of a higher ceiling with any of these players now apart from maybe Mowatt.
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The article on the 3:4:3 formation which I posted a link to earlier suggests that the 3 at the back lends itself to one of the two outer centre backs moving forward.
I can see why we would have "defenders" in the opposition box in general play.
What I'm talking about though is how our opponents defend by crowding their own penalty area, thus making scoring goals more difficult.
What can we do to pull some of those defenders away?
Its about hitting the opposition at a decent tempo before they have a chance to get into their shape. Once they've got organised into 2 banks of 4 (or whatever it is) its much harder to find a way through. Either we're too slow moving from defence into attack, or if we go direct, they tend to be high lobs that fall anywhere. You need players who can move the ball quickly, and above all accurately, in a forward direction. Which is a big ask for some of our players.
Once they've got into their defensive shape, you can try and 'suck' them out by passing the ball around in front of them, which I've seen Ajax do, but I don't think our crowd would put up with too much of that.
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I think an aerial threat in the box may help do this as teams will be less inclined to let us cross the ball, they'll be pushing wide to.stop.the cross thus creating gaps. That said, I feel like we can have some better patterns of play between our wingback and wider forwards.
We don't move them around and get enough bodies forward is the trouble. CR makes loads of little runs pulling the defenders around but there's no connection to the other forwards or midfield.
Perfect example was the run Fellows(?) made in behind the defence. Great run, puts a good ball across but nobody there. We have Hugill milling around waiting for a bus on the edge of the box instead. Even swapping Hugill for someone better, it would still have been just the one man in there so you're left hoping for some poor defending.
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The article on the 3:4:3 formation which I posted a link to earlier suggests that the 3 at the back lends itself to one of the two outer centre backs moving forward.
I can see why we would have "defenders" in the opposition box in general play.
What I'm talking about though is how our opponents defend by crowding their own penalty area, thus making scoring goals more difficult.
What can we do to pull some of those defenders away?
They defend like that because we load up that area , less space equals less chance of conceding or letting one of ours get a run .
Personally I'd prefer Pulis's method , one on the keeper ( Fletcher then ) , 1 near post ( Rondon ) with 3 coming in around the penalty spot Dawson / Evans / Gmac to a whipped in ball . Opposing defenders / keepers have to come out to that rather than this scrum in the 6 yard box Wimbledon style from the late 80's .
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The article on the 3:4:3 formation which I posted a link to earlier suggests that the 3 at the back lends itself to one of the two outer centre backs moving forward.
I can see why we would have "defenders" in the opposition box in general play.
What I'm talking about though is how our opponents defend by crowding their own penalty area, thus making scoring goals more difficult.
What can we do to pull some of those defenders away?
I'm sorry BJ , a lumbering 6ft CB going forward just isnt going to cut it for me coaching manual or not .
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Mowatt, Clarke, Molumby, Reach all are decent. If we had decent forwards nobody would be complaining about any of these guys.
Signing players like Adam Reach is exactly where we are going wrong , we need better than lower league squad players . Decent forwards would and should improve things but unless it improves this basic football it won't be enough .
When its bad under Val its really bad .
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Last sesaon we had two players, Okay and Pereira.
Two players, IMO, that you could start to build a side around.
This season we don't have a single player that you could say that about.
With the mish mash we have this season we should abandon any hope of Premier League football and start blooding some of the younger players that we have, give them a chance.
This should be coming from the top, develop a long term strategy instead of bringing managers in to fire fight all the time.
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Signing players like Adam Reach is exactly where we are going wrong , we need better than lower league squad players . Decent forwards would and should improve things but unless it improves this basic football it won't be enough .
When its bad under Val its really bad .
I assume that the decision was taken that no academy player was yet ready to provide the backup/compete with Townsend so we brought Reach in. I've got no problem with that given financial considerations. He's not going to be the most threatening left sided attacker as he was expected to be against Derby but he's done a pretty good job when called on including his emergency CB shift for one game. It's about time we saw the worldie that he's shown he's capable of though.
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SirTonyM does have a point, while they are all perfectly reasonable championship players, only Mowatt look’s like he could take the step up to the next level.
Don't forget Val wants us to be an out of possession side. IF we reach the PL we will become that sort of side and some players will be seen to different effect.
In this league we can't be that sort of team because a) teams set up to stop us and b) the onus is on us to win games and c) we don't have enough of the right type of players to play Val's way.
The team at the moment isn't how Val wants it to be.
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That's all true Atomic, but it doesn't change the fact that the signings wr made this summer were all distinctly championship players with no real potential of cutting it at a higher level.
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That's all true Atomic, but it doesn't change the fact that the signings wr made this summer were all distinctly championship players with no real potential of cutting it at a higher level.
You don't always know till you get there and try them within the system.
We would need a number of signings for sure but we've got to get there first.
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That's all true Atomic, but it doesn't change the fact that the signings wr made this summer were all distinctly championship players with no real potential of cutting it at a higher level.
I wouldn’t say all are distinctly average Mowatt & Clarke would get in pretty much every team in this division, Mulumby is only 22 also & would get in the majority of teams in this division. It’s pretty difficult to find Premier League quality players when you’re transfer fee outlay is £0 & paying championship wages.
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That's all true Atomic, but it doesn't change the fact that the signings wr made this summer were all distinctly championship players with no real potential of cutting it at a higher level.
Pretty sure Val oversaw all of the signings in the summer, only one of whom, truly, suits his style. Why should January suddenly be different.
He needs to get his head out of the books and the spreadsheets and open his eyes to what's going on, on the pitch. His words and his actions just don't match up.
We need someone in midfield who can pick a pass. In the 95th minute against Derby Livermore had a simple 3 yard pass to a runner, in space, in the box and he overhit it massively so it went straight out for a goal kick. Unforgiveable.
We don't need 3 CH's
Our wingbacks offer nothing going forward. Furlong is awful, but Townsend is decent, yet he spends most of his time on the back foot as his pace is needed to protect the high line. A back 4 would work better.
Everything is too condensed, we just don't use the pitch well enough, which allows teams to pack the penalty area.
Diangana and Hugill are simply awful and shouldn't be getting anywhere near the pitch let alone starting. TGH and Fellows have proved that the U23's can step up so we should be using them.
The subs are just a joke, can anyone tell me a single game where the subs actually made a difference?
Even our set pieces, which are our main threat, have gone to pot. Furlong really???
Wake up Val and react to what you see. Your after match assessment is blinded by misleading stats "x amount of shots" "played well" "x possession" etc. when everyone else can see that is just not a true reflection of what we are watching.
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He did wake up and react to what he saw on Monday.
It remains to be seen though how it impacts his selections and tactics. A key thing is will he now consistently pick TGH either at RWB or on the right of the middle two. Val has praised TGHs intensity which is what he wants and he's got more footballing ability than the current picks of Furlong and Livermore - that change has got to be done now.
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Mowatt and Clarke both fit VI’s style and arguably they were the only two brought in to be first choice.
Whatever the reasons for having a pop at VI (and I agree there are some), are the signings he made with zero transfer budget really one? I don’t think so. Even Hugill, on a free made some sense at the time.
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Mowatt and Clarke both fit VI’s style and arguably they were the only two brought in to be first choice.
Whatever the reasons for having a pop at VI (and I agree there are some), are the signings he made with zero transfer budget really one? I don’t think so. Even Hugill, on a free made some sense at the time.
Hugill may have made sense to a layman, but should never have been an option for Val, given his style of play. Same for Reach although not quite as strikingly (pun intended).
I would agree with Mowatt and say that Clarke has adapted well.
The budget is what it is and is better than most of the division so he can't hide behind that, he just needs to make sure that anyone who comes in, whether free or not, needs to fit immediately into what he's trying to do. We can't afford to bring in anyone else who is not intended to be "first choice", the current starting 11 is not good enough.
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Here is an interesting article about the 3:4:3 formation, looking at this, I don't think we're doing a lot wrong.
https://www.soccercoachingpro.com/3-4-3-formation/ (https://www.soccercoachingpro.com/3-4-3-formation/)
Just to add, this video from Tifo might also help:
https://youtu.be/hfNDVz1LdMI
I don't want to comment too much because I rarely see full games, and judging based off highlights is always dangerous, but from the little I've seen, our final third decision making is poor. Diangana, for example, cut inside onto his left foot for a tame shot when Furlong had overlapped and was free to put in a dangerous cross.
Those who have played sport know that when you're tired, it's about being able to still execute the basics, both technically and mentally. I wonder if our players are struggling with this aspect of Val's system. Not so much "Can they run for 90 minutes?", so much as "Can they stay composure under pressure for 90 minutes?"
Molumby also had a great opportunity to square the ball but got caught in two minds - neither crossing nor shooting.
From the little I've seen, the system is working, but the players need coaching better.
In the Analytics thread it's mentioned that we're underperforming our xG severely, and that means we're unlucky. It could also mean we're just not very good at finishing chances. Hugill generally underperforms his xG and has done throughout his career (with the exception of two purple patches).
Generally these things balance out over a long enough period of time, but it's also on the coach to do something to rectify the problem and not just hope we regress back to the mean this season.
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Hugill may have made sense to a layman, but should never have been an option for Val, given his style of play. Same for Reach although not quite as strikingly (pun intended).
I would agree with Mowatt and say that Clarke has adapted well.
The budget is what it is and is better than most of the division so he can't hide behind that, he just needs to make sure that anyone who comses in, whether free or not, needs to fit immediately into what he's trying to do. We can't afford to bring in anyone else who is not intended to be "first choice", the current starting 11 is not good enough.
I think that what you'd have read about Hugill as a championship striker would have been close to what we were looking for. Strong, holds the ball up well, bring others in to play, decent in the air, not an incredible finisher but will finish good chances. The fact is his return has been poor. Reach has done ok when call upon as cover on the left. I don't think anyone expected him to be playing in the front three and he was only ever back up.
The budget is better than most of the division, but most of our budget was tied up pre VI. You can't expect him to bring in first team players without the spare budget.
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He did wake up and react to what he saw on Monday.
It remains to be seen though how it impacts his selections and tactics. A key thing is will he now consistently pick TGH either at RWB or on the right of the middle two. Val has praised TGHs intensity which is what he wants and he's got more footballing ability than the current picks of Furlong and Livermore - that change has got to be done now.
I believe the way val would look at it is Furlong has the longest throw so statistically if offers a chance of us having more shots at goal as the ball will be in the penalty area more often .Percentage football at its finest regardless of Furlomgs overall game .
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Lack of funds is the only thing i'll cut him some slack on although theres no such thing as a free transfer these days , I do worry by giving him money we'll be stuck with a load of one pace plodders playing the two tactics we have .
Totally against quick changes of managers and theres nothing I'd like more than some flexibility from VI but having seen quite a bit of Barnsley last season I don't see this changing much . I felt he was a bold move but a bad fit in the Summer and I still do now .
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Staggered that there is nothing from the club to back him given the amount of abuse they are getting on every social channel presently. If they don’t say anything it will only get worse. Either back him or sack him.
Be interesting to see a board pole on this.
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Staggered that there is nothing from the club to back him given the amount of abuse they are getting on every social channel presently. If they don’t say anything it will only get worse. Either back him or sack him.
Be interesting to see a board pole on this.
Perhaps the club don't think there is a crisis?
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Watching the two benches at Derby really showed up Val’s limitations really impressed by the way Rooney seemed to read the game and adjusted his team to our threats. Swapping fullbacks in first half to nullify Furlong and Dianganna and just after we had a purple patch in second brought on a bit of physical presence upfront which spooked our defence.
Ishmael in my opinion had no idea how to break down their defence which is a real worry even simple tactical changes like swapping over wingers wasn’t even tried. Why we needed three at the back when we dominated territory and possession also baffled me. His brand of football frustrates the hell out of me and is worse than Pulisball, midfield is nonexistent when we build up play as centre halves just bypass them with balls ballooned over their’s and inevitably our forward lines heads also.
Last two games have rubber stamped in my mind the need to replace him as he only seems to get team selection right when we have suspensions and injuries Coventry same personal otherwise.
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Ever thought that we might have been dominating because of the system and not in spite of it !?
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Ever thought that we might have been dominating because of the system and not in spite of it !?
I think it's because the leagues so poor personally. Nothing else.
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Ever thought that we might have been dominating because of the system and not in spite of it !?
I think we would be fine with either a 4-3-3 or a 4-3-2-1...
…both of which likely involve the same 3 attacking players, who when you are on the front foot will be in the same positions.
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I think we would be fine with either a 4-3-3 or a 4-3-2-1...
…both of which likely involve the same 3 attacking players, who when you are on the front foot will be in the same positions.
Then what is the point of changing it and confusing the poor little souls?
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Ever thought that we might have been dominating because of the system and not in spite of it !?
number of factors probably lead to us dominating possession, playing a team bottom of the league and thus a side bereft of confidence, losing half their first team to covid probably helped
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Perhaps the club don't think there is a crisis?
We really are in trouble then.
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I think it's because the leagues so poor personally. Nothing else.
Agreed with respect to the league , I'm not sure I'd call it dominating either .
It frustrates me 95% of the answer are in plain sight for Val .
We don't need 3 CB's at this level , this side cries for more from the middle so if it was me I'd tweak the tactics to a 4 3 3 with Livermore sat in front of the defence and Mowatt and Molumby joining / prompting attacks . Not too far from his tactics with wingbacks now and keeps his 3 forwards , just a bit more available bodies in the middle rather than the same obvious wide attempts .
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Agreed with respect to the league , I'm not sure I'd call it dominating either .
It frustrates me 95% of the answer are in plain sight for Val .
We don't need 3 CB's at this level , this side cries for more from the middle so if it was me I'd tweak the tactics to a 4 3 3 with Livermore sat in front of the defence and Mowatt and Molumby joining / prompting attacks . Not too far from his tactics with wingbacks now and keeps his 3 forwards , just a bit more available bodies in the middle rather than the same obvious wide attempts .
Three CB'S can be more attacking than a four. I don't get this " we don't Need three CB's" thing. It actually can mean three defenders rather than four and it allows more players in advanced positions.
Just don't buy that argument, think it's nonsense to be honest. Both Wolves and Sheff Utd got out of this league playing three CB's.
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Im expecting pretty much the same line up against Cardiff, with maybe the exception of TGH being added to the starting line up. VI will state he is giving the team a chance to respond to his criticism. He seems unwilling to put more than 1 or 2 youngsters in at a time, even though we know they couldn't do any worse, and will no doubt give 100% - Unlike some of the senior members.
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Im expecting pretty much the same line up against Cardiff, with maybe the exception of TGH being added to the starting line up. VI will state he is giving the team a chance to respond to his criticism. He seems unwilling to put more than 1 or 2 youngsters in at a time, even though we know they couldn't do any worse, and will no doubt give 100% - Unlike some of the senior members.
Hard to see how you can do much worse than 1 point from 6 against the bottom 2.
I was very clear that we as fans had to be supportive when VI's blip came as it is/ was inevitable. The worry is however that the blip is becoming a trend and the basic managerial deliverables are not being delivered.
For me that means
Player development
Reaction to on pitch events
Establishing a style
Getting results
Coaching set plays (corners / free kicks)
Entertaining
Building team ethos / club mentality
On none of these measures would I consider VI successful yet, most concerning is the last one as it underpins everything else.
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number of factors probably lead to us dominating possession, playing a team bottom of the league and thus a side bereft of confidence, losing half their first team to covid probably helped
But it’s not just one game there have been similar stats in a majority of games recently
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I think it's because the leagues so poor personally. Nothing else.
Therefore it’s down to the players not being good enough , if they were good enough we’d be top !
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... His brand of football frustrates the hell out of me and is worse than Pulisball, ...
short memory?
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Three CB'S can be more attacking than a four. I don't get this " we don't Need three CB's" thing. It actually can mean three defenders rather than four and it allows more players in advanced positions.
Just don't buy that argument, think it's nonsense to be honest. Both Wolves and Sheff Utd got out of this league playing three CB's.
Both those played 5 3 2 though I believe ? , certainly we have nothing like the quality of midfielders Wolves had at that point . You mention getting players further forward which is fine but they arent doing much right now and the basic tactic of swinging in balls doesnt make much difference when the do .
A slight change is needed from my view , either one CB from the back or one of the ineffective front three . A third midfielder would make a big difference , really believe that .
He was right to rip into these players but just as much he needs to look at himself now , the next line up will tell us a lot .
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Therefore it’s down to the players not being good enough , if they were good enough we’d be top !
No i don[t agree with that statement. I think Vals underachieving. I'm saying they are where they are inspite of VI. If this was a normal champo season we'd be struggling to stay up with VI in charge. He doesn't suit the players and won't change because he can't change. We are lucky the league is so poor.
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It's very simple.
We are very good defensively as a unit, the team play a lot of the game in the opponents half. That is a tactic, to get the ball forward quickly and press high. Teams can't score against you from in their own half (unless your keeper has a brain fart allowing a goal) and if you continually hurry them they can't play quality balls forward to create chances.
As we concede so few chances, as well as actual goals, all the statistics suggest we are only one or two goalscorers away from substantially improving our points per game ratio. If you arnt conceding then one goal per game is enough.
I would agree that we maybe don't create numerous clear cut chances (or tap ins, as they used to be called) but thats as much about the strikers movement in the box. Look at the cross from Fellows a few minutes after coming on against Derby, a wonderful ball across the six yard box but no one gambling and within 10 yards of it.
I've heard from a number of fans that one goalscorer won't make the difference but POTENTIALLY it will because of the way we play. If we can find a goalscorer who will make those runs onto crosses or nick chances from set pieces AND continue to not concede then 10 goals can be worth 25-30 points. Also at the moment the crossing looks hopefull, I don't think even the players are expecting to score and that really effects confidence and moral.
For those who have never played the game I can't begin to tell you the difference between playing with/without your goalscorer and/or best player. It's so much easier running yourself into the ground and putting your body on the line defensively knowing that your number 9 might just ping one in the top corner from a half chance or dominate a defender from a corner. It can add 10% to your game when it's tight. Conversely, seeing chance after chance go begging or worse seeing chances not being created at all can sap the confidence and tire the legs. You can waffle on about style and philosophy, press or progressive but the game is simply about GOALS and winning games. If you are doing both then HOW you do it becomes an irrelevance.
So we have to give him the window, see how he is backed and then judge. If a goalscorer does come in and little actually changes then questions need to be asked. Until then he should be backed whether or not you like his system and way of playing. He won't be sacked yet, for the reasons above as much as the four year contract, but the business we do and subsequent results over the next few months could very well shape our short into mid term future.
COYB.
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Both those played 5 3 2 though I believe ? , certainly we have nothing like the quality of midfielders Wolves had at that point . You mention getting players further forward which is fine but they arent doing much right now and the basic tactic of swinging in balls doesnt make much difference when the do .
A slight change is needed from my view , either one CB from the back or one of the ineffective front three . A third midfielder would make a big difference , really believe that .
He was right to rip into these players but just as much he needs to look at himself now , the next line up will tell us a lot .
Exactly. I think if you can get your wingback forward you can overload on the wings tbf. The trouble is when they do get forward it ends up with a hopeful cross sailed into the box, with no extra players in there. Or sometimes Furlong will make it into the box.
How many times have we seen Townsend/Furlong get on the ends of crosses? It's very rare, and their quality isn't good enough when they do. If we were having all this good possession and attacking play I'd expect to see the wingbacks involved much more from an attacking sense.
In my opinion, they don't get forward enough, none of the CH's step into midfield, and the midfield rarely get into the box. I can only think of Livermore as a CM that even tries to get into the box. Mowatt/Molumby hover around the edge mostly when they do get forward.
All this leads to us being solid defensively, as we have plenty of players back and/or deep, but struggle to get players in the box - which is where we keep chucking the ball. The front 3 are spread right across the pitch so there's not even much scope for them to link up.
And you know, I wouldn't mind this. It's overlay cautious, but keeping it tight at the back and hoping to nick one is a tactic. What troubles me is that we set up like this against very weak teams, and even worse, when it isn't working we persist with it.
If you're an opposition manager and you drill into them how to defend against us all week then you're sorted. All you're going to concern yourself with is 'will it be Grant or Robinson?' and it doesn't matter as we'll play the same way regardless and you'll probably see the other after 60 mins.
If Wayne Rooney is outthinking you as a manager it's not a good sign.
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I assume that the decision was taken that no academy player was yet ready to provide the backup/compete with Townsend so we brought Reach in. I've got no problem with that given financial considerations. He's not going to be the most threatening left sided attacker as he was expected to be against Derby but he's done a pretty good job when called on including his emergency CB shift for one game. It's about time we saw the worldie that he's shown he's capable of though.
He is on over £20k not really a financial consideration.
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He is on over £20k not really a financial consideration.
OK but there was a comment about us not bringing in players who would be likely to handle the step-up to the prem. As someone else said that's a lot easier said than done even with a £20k wage.
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If Reach is on 20k or more someone needs to be fired.
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If Reach is on 20k or more someone needs to be fired.
we’ll majority of our budget is taken up with player’s wage’s Reach is I believe on £20 k a week which is over £1 million pounds a year. And he is more than likely one of the lower paid player’s at club, read somewhere that Livermore and Grant are on £48 k a week and Grady is on £ 35 k a week. Don’t know who our highest earner’s are but someone might?
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we’ll majority of our budget is taken up with player’s wage’s Reach is I believe on £20 k a week which is over £1 million pounds a year. And he is more than likely one of the lower paid player’s at club, read somewhere that Livermore and Grant are on £48 k a week and Grady is on £ 35 k a week. Don’t know who our highest earner’s are but someone might?
Livermore was highest earner after Gibbs Austin etc went. He's on 40k in the PL so in the EFL he's our top earner on 20k. Unless we made newboy Reach our top earner. Grady was on 30k in the PL it was reported so 15k now in the EFL.
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Livermore was highest earner after Gibbs Austin etc went. He's on 40k in the PL so in the EFL he's our top earner on 20k. Unless we made newboy Reach our top earner. Grady was on 30k in the PL it was reported so 15k now in the EFL.
Reach is on £20 k and he’s not our highest earner, if we take your figures the playing squad wouldn’t be nowhere near the usual 80 percent plus of what club gets from parachute payments and ticket sales etc.
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Reach is on £20 k and he’s not our highest earner, if we take your figures the playing squad wouldn’t be nowhere near the usual 80 percent plus of what club gets from parachute payments and ticket sales etc.
On the flex downs the wage bill but wont be in danger of hitting anywhere near our budget THIS season. Every players salary is halved when we get relegated.
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we’ll majority of our budget is taken up with player’s wage’s Reach is I believe on £20 k a week which is over £1 million pounds a year. And he is more than likely one of the lower paid player’s at club, read somewhere that Livermore and Grant are on £48 k a week and Grady is on £ 35 k a week. Don’t know who our highest earner’s are but someone might?
I understand wages are most of our turnover. However Reach was out of contract well in to pre season, during covid, and brought in as a squad player.
Theres only likely 3-5 clubs that could have given him more than £15k on a three year and I expect only one of those was interested.
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On the flex downs the wage bill but wont be in danger of hitting anywhere near our budget THIS season. Every players salary is halved when we get relegated.
don’t believe the flex downs are as much as 50 percent more like 30 percent otherwise we would have a healthy transfer budget.
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I understand wages are most of our turnover. However Reach was out of contract well in to pre season, during covid, and brought in as a squad player.
Theres only likely 3-5 clubs that could have given him more than £15k on a three year and I expect only one of those was interested.
reason deal took so long was his wage bill and at time it was being reported that he was holding out for £20 k a week and local jurno posted what they believed he was getting
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don’t believe the flex downs are as much as 50 percent more like 30 percent otherwise we would have a healthy transfer budget.
That's not what i've read in various papers and from local journos, most say its 50 percent flex down but i personally don't know so i can't say for sure.
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reason deal took so long was his wage bill and at time it was being reported that he was holding out for £20 k a week and local jurno posted what they believed he was getting
When signing a player on a free transfer/Bosnan, there’s no transfer fee (which is dead money) and so the player in question gets a decent signing-on fee. It is perfectly normal to structure all or most of that signing-on fee as an addition to wages so that it is paid spread out over the duration of his contract with us. That helps our cash flow too as there’s less initial outlay. So Reach may well be on £20k a week but anything from a quarter to a half of it is in lieu of his signing-on fee.
When Sanchez moved from Arsenal to Man United he was on £500k a week but half if that was in lieu of his signing-on fee as he signed on a Bosnan. It made him the best paid player at OT in theory, but not when half of it was structured as a deferred signing-on fee.
That’s why SJ is running down his contract. Any fee paid for him to us in January is effectively a reduction on his deferred wages for the next 4 years
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Why would we pay so much for a signing on fee for Reach, may as well have used it for an actual transfer fee.
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However the reach package is made up doesn’t really matter. Last summer, How many clubs were queuing up to commit in excess of £3.1m plus, to Reach over the next three years. I would guess not many! On top of that he got to join a club with a realistic chance of promotion and all the bonuses and wage increases that come with that.
He / his agent got him a great deal.
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Why would we pay so much for a signing on fee for Reach, may as well have used it for an actual transfer fee.
Another typical lazy Albion signing.
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I wouldn’t say all are distinctly average Mowatt & Clarke would get in pretty much every team in this division, Mulumby is only 22 also & would get in the majority of teams in this division. It’s pretty difficult to find Premier League quality players when you’re transfer fee outlay is £0 & paying championship wages.
I've singled out Mowatt on several occasions as being the one player wr have with the potential upper ceiling to adapt to the top flight. Clarke was also a perfectly reasonable loan signing but he does appear to be as advertised - a solid if unspectacular championship defender - he screams Tommy Gaardsoe to me and I can't see him stepping up.
The rest are all very ordinary, Molumby, Hugill, Reach all coming in off the backs of poor seasons at this level and Bryan being surplus to requirements at Sheff Utd.
I know it's tough work to find players who can step up in a shoe string, but the likes of Brentford, Luton, Coventry and on occasion Barnsley have done it, while Blackburn have also done well on no money this season. We need to get back to where we were a decade ago and maximise our transfer market recruitment.
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Another typical lazy Albion signing.
Practically all squad are overpaid or overrated some sadly are both.
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Practically all squad are overpaid or overrated some sadly are both.
You know when you have good players when they are linked with other teams above you in the tables. I don't see any links at present.
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You can blame the players to some degree but a good manager would get this lot with one decent striker promoted without any hassle at all. I’d bet good money Wilder would have us with 15 more points than we currently have.
Players don’t suddenly become rubbish, thry respond to better management and improve. Not a single player from last season has got better bar maybe Grant.
Tits Val’s fault, he’s out of his depth with better players.
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You can blame the players to some degree but a good manager would get this lot with one decent striker promoted without any hassle at all. I’d bet good money Wilder would have us with 15 more points than we currently have.
Players don’t suddenly become rubbish, thry respond to better management and improve. Not a single player from last season has got better bar maybe Grant.
Tits Val’s fault, he’s out of his depth with better players.
That’s a boob we should blame him for
I’d like him gone ASAP
For me he has absolutely no idea what he’s doing, the only time he gets the selection correct is when injuries / suspension forces his choice….then they do well and he can’t wait to balls it up again…an absolute amateur as a manager and I’d guess he will never manage above league one when we finally do the right thing.
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Players don’t suddenly become rubbish, thry respond to better management and improve.
Those players who were here last season were so good then weren't they? ::)
It's remarkable that there are plenty of people who were happy to forgive Allardyce for winning just 4 of his 26 games here and wanted him to stay on (some still want him to return even now), but now want Ismael to be sacked when he's lost just 5 of his 24 league games in charge to date and we've conceded the least number of goals in the division. It's a funny old world.
Ismael has been given a 4 year contract and his performance to date certainly, in my view, means he deserves the opportunity to see who he can bring in during the transfer window that's nearly upon us and then to see how he/they fare.
Changing managers every 6 months is absolutely nonsensical and completely self-defeating if we ever want to create a platform to build from.
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I'm fully behind Val and hope he gets what he needs in the Jan window, as he can only do the best he can with what he has.
I just believe he hasn't got a lot to work with as he hasn't had the money to improve it.
The only disappointment I have with him is I had hoped he had an extensive list of quality players from abroad to bring in on loan or whatever, as our recruitment team has done nowt for a long time.
However, I didn’t agree with paying £2m for any manager who had less than a year's experience in the championship.
I wanted Wilder as he had the promotions under his belt and that wounded animal wanting to prove himself again, and his start at Boro hasn't surprised me at all and believe he could challenge for the top 2 at least.
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A good Manager would have sidelined Hugill about 2 months ago. But according to Ismael, as he works hard it's OK, never mind the lack of quality.
Also Livermore, whilst Molumby is only a marginal improvement, he is better to a small degree, so why is Livermore still played?
Why are we still using 3 centre backs against teams that have no attacking threat?
You can talk about transfer windows and a lack of money but he simply has not made the most of the resources at his disposal.
The likes of Bartley, Livermore, Phillips, Townsend etc don't care they just want to stay at WBA either way. We must lift standards and demand that players have the ambition to play in the Premier League.
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Both the manager and the players were better in the first 10 games or so but something has gone wrong since then and it's the manager's job to find out what it is and correct it.
This squad is good enough to comfortably finish top 6, there's no doubting that for all the rhetoric to the contrary, but, so is the manager, he did it last year with a far inferior squad.
What Val needs to do is find a way of bringing the two together and, at present, the wheels are starting to come off and he's struggling to address it.
Personally, I don't think he has the experience, knowledge or flexibility, to do this long term, but, I WANT to be proven wrong, because I want us to win every game and succeed as a club. As I don't believe his job is immediately on the line, the only way he gets sacked is if we continue to slide and nobody can want that.
We are still top 6, just about, so all is not lost, if he could just open his eyes to a few glaring deficiencies like Hugill, Livermore and Diangana and improve his in-game management, we could still finish the season very well. Does he have the guts? I sincerely hope so.
For all those saying he hasn't been backed or given money, get used to that, that is life in the Championship for a self-sustaining club like ours. Val has to work with what he gets and, whilst that may appear meagre, it is certainly more than he succeeded with at Barnsley so is not an excuse.
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He's too rigid in his formation and even during games when it's not working. Like for like substitutions and pretty much always 55 to 65 minutes. He may as well send an email to the oppositions manager before the game to tell him what to expect.
I know people will say "we've got to get there first" but if the manager lacks flexibility in this league how is he going to combat teams at Premier league level. There should be some signs as to whether we could stay up playing the way we do currently. I see no signs whatsoever
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A good Manager would have sidelined Hugill about 2 months ago. But according to Ismael, as he works hard it's OK, never mind the lack of quality.
Why are we still using 3 centre backs against teams that have no attacking threat?
VI has always stated he doesn't need 'quality' but players to fit his system!! Unbelievable but there it is.
3 Centre Backs is acceptable if the wing backs get forward to supply 'quality' balls into the box, but as we know, we don't have quality forwards to get on the end of anything.
I agree that Hugill shouldn't be anywhere near the starting XI, but VI loves a 'worker'. Lets hope Norwich recall him next week.
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I'll raise an issue that bugs me and, I think, highlights one of the deficiencies with our system. Penalty shouts.
For a team as "dominant" as we are in games we should be getting these in abundance, yet, despite having the likes of Diangana, Robinson and Grant all of whom have a trick, or a drop of the shoulder, in their locker, we get nothing, not even a decent shout. For me, this is down to the way we set up and our over reliance on balls into (or over) the box. We very rarely carry the ball into the box and this is a failing, given the players I mentioned. We have to find a way of getting the ball into their feet and let them attack defenders. I know some will say that this is easier said than done because teams are packing their defence, but this must also be true for Fulham, Bournemouth and Blackburn but they still get penalties aplenty.
It's just tweaks and in-game management for me but Val is just too blind or too stubborn to see it.
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Three CB'S can be more attacking than a four. I don't get this " we don't Need three CB's" thing. It actually can mean three defenders rather than four and it allows more players in advanced positions.
Just don't buy that argument, think it's nonsense to be honest. Both Wolves and Sheff Utd got out of this league playing three CB's.
But the point is whether that formation suits what we currently have and I do not believe it does. The argument of getting Mowatt and Molumby into midfield who are better technical players will only help our forward play and take the reliance off our limited front three.
You have also raised those two sides as testament to this formation but have not considered that the personnel available to both was far greater.
Wolves had a midfield consisting of Neves and Saiss with Coady & Boly featuring at centre half - all remain integral to their side today. In addition their forward options consisted of Costa, Jota, Cavaleiro and Bonatini - those nine players alone blow ours out the water. They also had genuine wingbacks.
Sheff United we’re a lot more workmanlike but had been using the formation since Wilders arrival. Again though, Sharp, McGoldrock, Dowell, Lundstram, Basham, O’Connell would easily walk into our side.
There are more ways to skin a cat but given our current shortages it would not hurt to try something different to encourage a greater goal return.
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Coady's not a midfielder, he's a centre back.
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Coady's not a midfielder, he's a centre back.
He is a freaking dongle that’s all that matters (spits)
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Second best xG in the league. Best xG against. I hate using stats like that but it proves the argument that we aren't creative is nothing but anti-Val nonsense.
A Solanke or a Mitrovic in our team and we're top, comfortably.
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Coady's not a midfielder, he's a centre back.
I’m not sure who Swiss was either when I read it back :D
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He is a freaking dongle that’s all that matters (spits)
Comes across ok to be honest, never really had him down as a memory stick.
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Second best xG in the league. Best xG against. I hate using stats like that but it proves the argument that we aren't creative is nothing but anti-Val nonsense.
A Solanke or a Mitrovic in our team and we're top, comfortably.
I don't know how xg is measured and I'm sure it has uses but I trust my eyes and I dont count swung in balls from 30 yards out or long throws as genuine chances .
Thats nothing to do with Pro or Anti Val , 99% of members can tell exactly how we'll line up and exactly how we'll play.
I can only hope V.I 's words are backed up after his Derby rage.
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I don't know how xg is measured and I'm sure it has uses but I trust my eyes and I dont count swung in balls from 30 yards out or long throws as genuine chances .
Thats nothing to do with Pro or Anti Val , 99% of members can tell exactly how we'll line up and exactly how we'll play.
I can only hope V.I 's words are backed up after his Derby rage.
It is. The numbers are there in black and white to back up what is happening on the pitch. A more clinical striker in this team and we'd be comfortably top.
Whether you like the style of play (not the best) or agree with all his team selections (I don't) is a separate discussion. We're 90% of the way there, we just aren't anywhere near clinical enough. Val is only to blame for that if he was genuinely happy with our attacking options in the summer and Hugill was his first choice. I don't believe either of those would have been the case.
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The persistence with Hugill has cost us big time (and to a lesser extent Livermore).
You'd expect a Manager to learn about the players over the duration of a season and build up an idea of what works and what doesn't? The critics of Ismael point out there is not any evidence of this happening, just a procession of picking favourites / most experienced players. Almost ignoring quality over effort.
All you can say is that today's postponement and the upcoming transfer window has come at the right time. A quality striker may mask his deficiencies and save his skin (at least for the remainder of this season).
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None of these count according to the Val-skeptics as they weren't the end result of some nice triangles in midfield and because Darnell Furlong was on the pitch. Nice try though.
Admittedly, the footage contains clips from two of our best performances this season (Reading and Blackpool). How we did not grab a couple more goals from either of those games is testament to the lack of quality in our forwards.
It's also got footage from the Derby game where by all accounts we were "****" and still created enough to win two games.
The persistence with Hugill has cost us big time (and to a lesser extent Livermore).
You'd expect a Manager to learn about the players over the duration of a season and build up an idea of what works and what doesn't? The critics of Ismael point out there is not any evidence of this happening, just a procession of picking favourites / most experienced players. Almost ignoring quality over effort.
All you can say is that today's postponement and the upcoming transfer window has come at the right time. A quality striker may mask his deficiencies and save his skin (at least for the remainder of this season).
To an extend I agree, although on the Hugill point, realistically he has no alternative. None of our strikers (aside from Grant) look like scoring, ever.
After his comments post-Derby he has to make changes for the Cardiff game. If he doesn't, then he'll quickly lose the support he has left.
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we’ll majority of our budget is taken up with player’s wage’s Reach is I believe on £20 k a week which is over £1 million pounds a year. And he is more than likely one of the lower paid player’s at club, read somewhere that Livermore and Grant are on £48 k a week and Grady is on £ 35 k a week. Don’t know who our highest earner’s are but someone might?
To the best of my knowledge our highest 'earner' (laughably if it wasn't so irritating) is Kenneth Zohore. And he's not on anything like the numbers you've quoted.
One of the biggest problems we had with the wage bill following our last promotion was honouring deferred payments in the form of flex down back pay and promotion bonus clauses.
From what I've been told (not read online) you're way off with Grant, Livermore and Diangana at Championship level. Way off.
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To the best of my knowledge our highest 'earner' (laughably if it wasn't so irritating) is Kenneth Zohore. And he's not on anything like the numbers you've quoted.
One of the biggest problems we had with the wage bill following our last promotion was honouring deferred payments in the form of flex down back pay and promotion bonus clauses.
From what I've been told (not read online) you're way off with Grant, Livermore and Diangana at Championship level. Way off.
Yep, Livermore is highest earner, 40k per week in the PL, 20k in the EFL. Would imagine Diangana, Grant etc on 15k in the EFL.
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Yep, Livermore is highest earner, 40k per week in the PL, 20k in the EFL. Would imagine Diangana, Grant etc on 15k in the EFL.
Our highest earner will be on more than £20,000 per week. Try closer to £35,000.
https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/huge-wage-gap-in-efl-revealed-2663302
Average championship highest earner at clubs was £29k according to the leaked report in 2020. Even if you take out the anomaly of £68,000 you have get an average of £27k. We will be one of the clubs that is above average.
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Our highest earner will be on more than £20,000 per week. Try closer to £35,000.
https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/huge-wage-gap-in-efl-revealed-2663302
Average championship highest earner at clubs was £29k according to the leaked report in 2020. Even if you take out the anomaly of £68,000 you have get an average of £27k. We will be one of the clubs that is above average.
It's well documented/known Livermore is our highest earner on 40k per week in the PL now the Gibbs, Austins etc gone. Our wage bill will be nothing like it was. Plenty of headroom with parachute payment and MP money.
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Yep, Livermore is highest earner........
Oh no he isn't....... ;) .
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Oh no he isn't....... ;) .
As it's panto seaos I'll join in
Oh yes he is... 😂😂
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Lads , if we can refrain from posting personal twitter accounts on here , thanks.
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I think alot of people are overrating the 'quality' of players on our books. I was always sceptical of those who thought we would walk this league easily. To my mind we have just Mowatt, O'Shea, SJ (and he has the odd blunder) and Townsend at a push, who could make the grade in the PL.
People forget that in losing Pereira, we had a player who had a hand in maybe 50% of all our goals last season. Just think how his contribution would translate into this season's results. He could weight and spot a pass from midfield and chipped in with a lot of goals himself. Also Yokuslu, Maitland-Niles and Gallagher were a massive upgrade on what we have now.
I think TGH needs to start more often, and other Academy players need to be given more game time, but its going to take time for them to blend in, as was apparent from the Arsenal cup match.
We can still get promotion this year, but we badly need a goalscorer up top, and even then its going to be a struggle.
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It is. The numbers are there in black and white to back up what is happening on the pitch. A more clinical striker in this team and we'd be comfortably top.
Whether you like the style of play (not the best) or agree with all his team selections (I don't) is a separate discussion. We're 90% of the way there, we just aren't anywhere near clinical enough. Val is only to blame for that if he was genuinely happy with our attacking options in the summer and Hugill was his first choice. I don't believe either of those would have been the case.
See thats the issue , numbers and spread sheets .
Its a very robotic way of playing and as i said Yesterday a third midfielder would be a big help . My favourite game of late was the Reading game , really enjoyed seeing players been taken on and quick passing . Missed chance but they were real chances not hopeful balls swung in to nobody , I hooe Val backs up his words .
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From my perspective when I looked at the squad and the quality (or lack thereof) at the beginning of the season I predicted we would be higher mid-table and push for a playoff spot. I thought we would end up with a manager like Wilder, or a cheap over-circulated manager but when we got VI I was very happy, and the first few games excited me with the high pressing and incredible energy we showed at times. Quickly this started to dissipate and even when we got results I started to not enjoy games (Birmingham and QPR matches are a few I remember us winning but felt we were second best for large parts). Stats often favour us, but when I watch the game I just feel the players are stuck in mud, slow to react and things just aren't quite clicking.
Our league position for me has often flattered this season as I truly believe the league is much poorer quality than other recent seasons, with many teams frequently going through bad streaks. That performance against Derby however was one of the most depressing I've ever suffered through really, it took a while to shake it off when normally I'm not too bothered if it doesn't go our way.
I know there are a lot of angry fans right now at VI and I feel your frustration with much of what I'm seeing but I do feel we have a big lack of quality in this squad and I think we're blinkered to think any other manager would achieve much better results, someone else said about having a Mitrovic in this side we'd be top of the league and I think that's actually right, however that again for me shows the poor quality of this league.
I sincerely hope we get a goalscorer, and give a few of the younger players a chance. There are a number of first team players who for me would never cut the mustard in the Prem but we can't get rid of everyone right now and start a re-build when there's still a realistic chance of promotion. I don't actually rate anybody in our squad as real Premier league quality outside of Sam Johnstone
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Comes across ok to be honest, never really had him down as a memory stick.
well done! fair cop guv. :D
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Had the board been serious about automatic promotion they would not have sold Pereira for a fraction of his value, it's that simple.
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I feel that he is just treading water and doesn't really know what to do.
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Had the board been serious about automatic promotion they would not have sold Pereira for a fraction of his value, it's that simple.
Sadly it’s “not that simpleâ€. We had already seemingly tried to offload him last January which handed him the aces and we were exposed as a result. We would also have been left with a player who didn’t want to remain and play in the Championship and didn’t fit the new manager’s style. I fear that the real damage was done last January and what happened in the summer was a direct result of that affair.
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Oh no he isn't....... ;) .
I am very reliably informed that he is - by nearly a 50% margin
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Sadly it’s “not that simpleâ€. We had already seemingly tried to offload him last January which handed him the aces and we were exposed as a result. We would also have been left with a player who didn’t want to remain and play in the Championship and didn’t fit the new manager’s style. I fear that the real damage was done last January and what happened in the summer was a direct result of that affair.
Whatever the cost of a divorce it's generally the kids who feel it the most, closely followed by the disgruntled ex pining for the departed over what should or could but ultimately probably wouldn't have ever been.
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I am very reliably informed that he is - by nearly a 50% margin
What a coincidence. I too am reliably informed that he isn't. By the tune of approximately 3K from memory. Relayed memory that is but as I haven't seen the pay slips I cannot in truth confirm nor deny.
However, what I do know is that an earlier poster was so far off the mark with his reported figures as to be out of orbit. And quite possibly in an entirely different dimension altogether ;D .
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I'm trying to understand why Val rigidly sticks to making subs at or around 60 mins, perhaps:
1. If his pressing game is played correctly 2 of the 3 forwards should be knackered. I don't know whether the medical staff has any means of being more scientific about judging this.
2. It's good for morale that members of the the match day squad are promised a decent time on the pitch. We think we know that Val would prefer a 5 sub game. With 5 subs, he might be tempted to swop some players earlier
3. Late subs (say 80 mins plus) can't really get up to speed with the game - although against Derby, TGH and Fellows certainly hit the ground running. I don't know why he didn't bring TGH on earlier. Maybe he's worried about his defending experience - perhaps when O'Shea returns to help on that flank, he will start him instead of Furlong.
All of the above seem plausible reasons to me. Maybe we haven't got the depth and calibre of players to do this atm.
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I'm trying to understand why Val rigidly sticks to making subs at or around 60 mins, perhaps:
1. If his pressing game is played correctly 2 of the 3 forwards should be knackered. I don't know whether the medical staff has any means of being more scientific about judging this.
2. It's good for morale that members of the the match day squad are promised a decent time on the pitch. We think we know that Val would prefer a 5 sub game. With 5 subs, he might be tempted to swop some players earlier
3. Late subs (say 80 mins plus) can't really get up to speed with the game - although against Derby, TGH and Fellows certainly hit the ground running. I don't know why he didn't bring TGH on earlier. Maybe he's worried about his defending experience - perhaps when O'Shea returns to help on that flank, he will start him instead of Furlong.
All of the above seem plausible reasons to me. Maybe we haven't got the depth and calibre of players to do this atm.
Bear in mind VI is very analysis & science driven.
I suspect you're probably right about the forwards being down on energy after 60 minutes.
I believe that the halter the players wear is a heart beat monitor, so sports scientists pitchside can advise.
The morale argument is valid, but I'm not sure how close it is to the top of the decision making process.
Loads of games are won & lost in the last 10 minutes.
I've always thought it's a good psychological tactic to sub at 80 minutes, the player defenders spot out of the corner of the eye isn't there anymore, & there's a tiny window attacking teams can exploit while the defender makes the adjustment to the new player.
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I’ve always thought is was a good idea to make subs when someone isn’t doing what they should he doing, no matter the time.
A bit like tactics, if you can see it isn’t working you change it and adapt.
This guy doesn’t have the skills to do either presently, worryingly he thinks he’s beyond criticism.
The amount of people on this board backing him better be right that a striker will solve everything otherwise we’ll be playing league 1 football in the next few years.
I’ve said it before but Albion deserve better, Barnsley was his level.
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I’ve always thought is was a good idea to make subs when someone isn’t doing what they should he doing, no matter the time.
A bit like tactics, if you can see it isn’t working you change it and adapt.
This guy doesn’t have the skills to do either presently, worryingly he thinks he’s beyond criticism.
The amount of people on this board backing him better be right that a striker will solve everything otherwise we’ll be playing league 1 football in the next few years.
I’ve said it before but Albion deserve better, Barnsley was his level.
I had a conversation yesterday with another senior member of the forum about experience.
When you've been round the block a few times you recognise traits in people.
One of the traits in people who are good at analysis is they are generally very self critical & spend lots of time analysing their own actions & reactions.
I doubt very much that VI sees himself beyond criticism
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If Ismael is so data driven, what stat is he looking at to determine Hugill is worth 30 mins every match?
Because looking at every snippet of information, they would declare don't play him!
I also want to know which stats say you should play Livermore over Molumby / Furlong over TGH?
Do you think Sir Alex Ferguson cared about dropping senior players?
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I’ve always thought is was a good idea to make subs when someone isn’t doing what they should he doing, no matter the time.
A bit like tactics, if you can see it isn’t working you change it and adapt.
This guy doesn’t have the skills to do either presently, worryingly he thinks he’s beyond criticism.
The amount of people on this board backing him better be right that a striker will solve everything otherwise we’ll be playing league 1 football in the next few years.
I’ve said it before but Albion deserve better, Barnsley was his level.
I have to say I've been annoyed at certain players being dragged off after 55/60 mins , the games often open up later and while they may not be in great form you know Grant / Diang and Robbo do have levels of pace and stamina. Bring Hugill or even bull in a china shop Phillips is just shooting ourselves in the foot . Too soon that 55/ 60 mins subbing thing imo.
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You either accept that statistical analysis is helpful in decision making or you don't.
Personally, I think it is.
So did Sam Allardyce, he was one of the original users of Prozone.
At elite level, substitution decisions are often more complex than just under performance.
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I'm trying to understand why Val rigidly sticks to making subs at or around 60 mins, perhaps:
1. If his pressing game is played correctly 2 of the 3 forwards should be knackered. I don't know whether the medical staff has any means of being more scientific about judging this.
2. It's good for morale that members of the the match day squad are promised a decent time on the pitch. We think we know that Val would prefer a 5 sub game. With 5 subs, he might be tempted to swop some players earlier
3. Late subs (say 80 mins plus) can't really get up to speed with the game - although against Derby, TGH and Fellows certainly hit the ground running. I don't know why he didn't bring TGH on earlier. Maybe he's worried about his defending experience - perhaps when O'Shea returns to help on that flank, he will start him instead of Furlong.
All of the above seem plausible reasons to me. Maybe we haven't got the depth and calibre of players to do this atm.
I would question the effect on the morale of the player taken off. If you know that you are getting hooked on 60, regardless of performance, that can't be comfortable and surely increases the pressure to perform? I don't remember a single positive reaction from the player hauled off this season.
It's just further compounded when the player is Hugill or Diangana, neither of whom have contributed anything so far when coming off the bench.
Just seems a bizarre habit to me as I fail to see what stat or data can support it.
I've asked this before but I'll go again, can anyone point to a game / result changing substitution this season?
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No, and like you I can't be bothered to check either ;D .
I do remember Matt Phillips coming on for Callum Robinson and bagging the fourth against Cardiff though.
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You either accept that statistical analysis is helpful in decision making or you don't.
Personally, I think it is.
So did Sam Allardyce, he was one of the original users of Prozone.
At elite level, substitution decisions are often more complex than just under performance.
There's accepting stats and then there's being ruled by them . I think even the most pro Val fans would cast an eye over that .
You could also argue the forwards could be snatching at chabces as they know there's a one in three / two even three chance they'll be dragged off on 55/60 mins . Not only that its showing your hand to the other side far too easily.
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Thankfully I have not had to bother with stats for over ten years now, although at one time they were a significant, but irksome for me, part of my job. Statistics should always be read /analysed with as much calmness and context as possible. Some of the stats I think first posted by Albion Fan sourced from Albion Analytics, did peak a little interest and caused me to wonder how much actual difference the introductions of Hugill make. Was there any evidence of any slight change of focus, or any of the psychological changes described by BaggieJohn? Did we make any more, or any different sorts of chances with the introduction of Hugill? Have we scored more goals or less goals after the introduction of Hugill? do these figures exist and are they available?
Totally without concrete evidence or statistical support, my own gut reaction is that just by looking at some of those chances we have created and have been missed by Hugill alone, we do seem make some improvements in chance creation. Unfortunately not of course in acceptance of those chances. Just by converting two or three of the chances Hugill has had could easily have changed games and even given us perhaps five or six more points.
It is a very fine line between success and failure Valerian is treading and one aesthetics has a part to play too of course. There is now a schism between what some find acceptable and, for whatever their personal reasons, others do not. I wonder are there any statistical demographics that might account for those who actively support the present manager, those who are not satisfied with the team at present, but are prepared to wait a bit longer to see it develop, and those who see an immediate fix by sacking valerian?
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Has VI hooked anyone on 60 in a game that they have scored this season?
I'm not a fan of the religious subs at 60, but at the same time, our forwards players generally haven't been performing in a way that justifies leaving them on. If we had a Brereton, Solanke or Mitrovic, I dont think theyd be getting pulled. Grant has only been the one pulled 5 times, under 65 minutes. Two of those were games we were cruising in and playing 3 games in a week so arguably were sensible.
Similarly, when we question the constant game time that Hugill has received, Philips has been injured, and Diangana / Robinson havent performed particularly well so we have limited options. Yes you could use Fellows or Cleary, but as was discussed in a thread yesterday, the step up is massive. Ok, we could perhaps drop a striker for an additional midfielder, but does that really make us any more potent?
Going in to the season with just Hugill as an out and out striker was a mistake. We perhaps should have tried Grant through the middle with Diangana left and Robbo right though.
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IMO there's a disconnect between what is acceptable to the fan base & the owner.
As a fan, the asthetic side of VI's style is awful, & I've always acknowledged that.
On the other hand, the owner is likely to take the view that promotion to the EPL & the additional revenue that would generate (if only for one season), carries much more weight than style.
All of the evidence points to us needing a goalscorer. Local journos seem to be convinced that GL has accepted that's what's needed.
Let's see what happens.....................
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Thankfully I have not had to bother with stats for over ten years now, although at one time they were a significant, but irksome for me, part of my job. Statistics should always be read /analysed with as much calmness and context as possible. Some of the stats I think first posted by Albion Fan sourced from Albion Analytics, did peak a little interest and caused me to wonder how much actual difference the introductions of Hugill make. Was there any evidence of any slight change of focus, or any of the psychological changes described by BaggieJohn? Did we make any more, or any different sorts of chances with the introduction of Hugill? Have we scored more goals or less goals after the introduction of Hugill? do these figures exist and are they available?
Totally without concrete evidence or statistical support, my own gut reaction is that just by looking at some of those chances we have created and have been missed by Hugill alone, we do seem make some improvements in chance creation. Unfortunately not of course in acceptance of those chances. Just by converting two or three of the chances Hugill has had could easily have changed games and even given us perhaps five or six more points.
It is a very fine line between success and failure Valerian is treading and one aesthetics has a part to play too of course. There is now a schism between what some find acceptable and, for whatever their personal reasons, others do not. I wonder are there any statistical demographics that might account for those who actively support the present manager, those who are not satisfied with the team at present, but are prepared to wait a bit longer to see it develop, and those who see an immediate fix by sacking valerian?
You make some good points about the offensive side of our game, But VI claims that 7 stupid mistakes have contributed to us conceding goals in games that we might have won.
Off the top of my head, I can think of 4, including the cock-up at Derby, so although our offensive side is short of a goalscorer, we also keep gifting points to our opponents
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To the best of my knowledge our highest 'earner' (laughably if it wasn't so irritating) is Kenneth Zohore. And he's not on anything like the numbers you've quoted.
One of the biggest problems we had with the wage bill following our last promotion was honouring deferred payments in the form of flex down back pay and promotion bonus clauses.
From what I've been told (not read online) you're way off with Grant, Livermore and Diangana at Championship level. Way off.
the club usually spends 88% of its revenue on wages and bonuses etc with parachute payment of £46.5 million and ticket and merchandising of around £7million.so £47 million is usually ear marked for playing staff, coaching staff etc, if you believe that our highest earners are on £20k which equates to just over £1 million a year then even if you put the 25 man squad each on £20 k a week that would only come to just over £25 million. Oh and by the way we haven’t got a 25 man squad of older pros it supplemented with youth team. So where is the rest of the money going? £22 million to be precise.
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You make some good points about the offensive side of our game, But VI claims that 7 stupid mistakes have contributed to us conceding goals in games that we might have won.
Off the top of my head, I can think of 4, including the cock-up at Derby, so although our offensive side is short of a goalscorer, we also keep gifting points to our opponents
You are right BaggieJohn I had not even looked at the defender side, probably because on the surface it looks ok as regard goals conceded. But if as you say you take into account the needless goals from individual cock-ups, and the effect such goals might have on the team, without these, and without the failures to convert some pretty decent chances we could easily be topping this league in spit of some rather frantic K&R football at times
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the club usually spends 88% of its revenue on wages and bonuses etc with parachute payment of £46.5 million and ticket and merchandising of around £7million.so £47 million is usually ear marked for playing staff, coaching staff etc, if you believe that our highest earners are on £20k which equates to just over £1 million a year then even if you put the 25 man squad each on £20 k a week that would only come to just over £25 million. Oh and by the way we haven’t got a 25 man squad of older pros it supplemented with youth team. So where is the rest of the money going? £22 million to be precise.
I don’t think Dan said it was 20k, he just said one posters views were way off.
Otherwise I agree with you that our highest earner is more than £20k. Our accounts from the last championship season show total salaries and on costs of around £47m. It also shows how many staff we have in different categories. Using some assumptions I reckon about £7-£10m was not players or first team staff. Leaving £37-£40m. I’m not sure if that includes the promotion bonus.
It’s fair to say we have less high earners than last time but everything (including the leaked EFL report) point to us having a highest earner over £20k.
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the club usually spends 88% of its revenue on wages and bonuses etc with parachute payment of £46.5 million and ticket and merchandising of around £7million.so £47 million is usually ear marked for playing staff, coaching staff etc, if you believe that our highest earners are on £20k which equates to just over £1 million a year then even if you put the 25 man squad each on £20 k a week that would only come to just over £25 million. Oh and by the way we haven’t got a 25 man squad of older pros it supplemented with youth team. So where is the rest of the money going? £22 million to be precise.
Our parachute payments are currently paid across two years following our immediate return to the Championship. Our current budget is spread over three years with money held back should we not achieve an immediate return to the Prem.
I never stated anything about having a 25 man squad of older pros. Your latest post taken on the back of your last one more than amply suggests you haven't got the foggiest clue as to our budgets or who is on what.
Have a wonderful New Year's Eve and a happy 2022 ;) .
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I don’t think Dan said it was 20k, he just said one posters views were way off.
Otherwise I agree with you that our highest earner is more than £20k. Our accounts from the last championship season show total salaries and on costs of around £47m. It also shows how many staff we have in different categories. Using some assumptions I reckon about £7-£10m was not players or first team staff. Leaving £37-£40m. I’m not sure if that includes the promotion bonus.
It’s fair to say we have less high earners than last time but everything (including the leaked EFL report) point to us having a highest earner over £20k.
Our highest earner is on over £20K but his basic is under £30K. Just. I have no idea what any bonuses or clauses accrue to. I didn't ask as I was already disgusted enough.
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Our parachute payments are currently paid across two years following our immediate return to the Championship. Our current budget is spread over three years with money held back should we not achieve an immediate return to the Prem.
I never stated anything about having a 25 man squad of older pros. Your latest post taken on the back of your last one more than amply suggests you haven't got the foggiest clue as to our budgets or who is on what.
Have a wonderful New Year's Eve and a happy 2022 ;) .
your the one that pipped up that you had inside information not from media or internet sights I’m only asking your friend to explain where the money is going? As for payments from prem this season club received £46.5 million never suggested anything about our budget just trying to figure out the missing £22 million whole in your argument.
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What a coincidence. I too am reliably informed that he isn't. By the tune of approximately 3K from memory. Relayed memory that is but as I haven't seen the pay slips I cannot in truth confirm nor deny.
However, what I do know is that an earlier poster was so far off the mark with his reported figures as to be out of orbit. And quite possibly in an entirely different dimension altogether ;D .
Was on £48k a week in the Premier League and next highest was £32k a week. Assuming that everyone suffered the same wage flexdown there’s no reason to believe he’s not still there highest paid, by a distance.
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the club usually spends 88% of its revenue on wages and bonuses etc with parachute payment of £46.5 million and ticket and merchandising of around £7million.so £47 million is usually ear marked for playing staff, coaching staff etc, if you believe that our highest earners are on £20k which equates to just over £1 million a year then even if you put the 25 man squad each on £20 k a week that would only come to just over £25 million. Oh and by the way we haven’t got a 25 man squad of older pros it supplemented with youth team. So where is the rest of the money going? £22 million to be precise.
I thought parachute payments were only around £36m this year.
You can’t really say we “usually†spend 88% of our revenue on wages. For most of the past decade we’ve been in the Premier League and it’s not exactly straightforward to cut all costs down to 88% of revenue when revenue is so variable, especially with the empty stadium revenue last season. The revenue figure also varies with the volume of player sales and purchases from season to season. It’s far from an exact science.
Given that our 2nd highest paid player in the Premier League was £1.6m (£32k a week), and many were in the £500k to £1.4m range, (£10k to £28k a week), then slashed following relegation, then even allowing for Livermore now being on around £24k a week in the Championship, the average wage of our first team squad is now more like £10k to £15k per week.
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I thought parachute payments were only around £36m this year.
You can’t really say we “usually†spend 88% of our revenue on wages. For most of the past decade we’ve been in the Premier League and it’s not exactly straightforward to cut all costs down to 88% of revenue when revenue is so variable, especially with the empty stadium revenue last season. The revenue figure also varies with the volume of player sales and purchases from season to season. It’s far from an exact science.
Given that our 2nd highest paid player in the Premier League was £1.6m (£32k a week), and many were in the £500k to £1.4m range, (£10k to £28k a week), then slashed following relegation, then even allowing for Livermore now being on around £24k a week in the Championship, the average wage of our first team squad is now more like £10k to £15k per week.
why €36 million? When it’s usually 55% of what club earned in prem which is £46.5 million and before someone says it’s due to covid club already paid £9 million back to sky and Bt last season.
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your the one that pipped up that you had inside information not from media or internet sights I’m only asking your friend to explain where the money is going? As for payments from prem this season club received £46.5 million never suggested anything about our budget just trying to figure out the missing £22 million whole in your argument.
Mods. If you don't mind I plan to make one final point to P here as it's pertinent to the monies available to the thread's title bearer.
I never pipped (or piped) up about anything. I relayed part of a conversation I had with someone with no agenda. This person knows a lot more people at the Albion than I do. I don't claim to be well connected or ITK. He goes higher up the tree though.
I don't take his words as gospel but he's no liar and his information doesn't come from the tea lady or the ground staff etc. All I've done is point out that your source, presumably garnered via the internet, was wildly inaccurate.
And I stand by that regardless of whether our top basic wage (before bonuses) goes to Jake Livermore, Kenneth Zohore or the man in the moon. You can take it on board if you wish. You can throw it away if you want. I really don't care either way as I am not seeking your validation.
Again, have a lovely New Year 8) .
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why €36 million? When it’s usually 55% of what club earned in prem which is £46.5 million and before someone says it’s due to covid club already paid £9 million back to sky and Bt last season.
I’ve got a copy of a document at home (I’m not at home for a few days yet so can’t access it) which showed that instead of parachute payments being paid over 3 years like it was when we previously got relegated (with the 3rd years payment being much smaller than years 1 and 2) it is now to be paid for just two years and there is more of an averaging out the total sum over years 1 and 2. In the back of my mind I have it as being now something like £36/32m in Years 1 and 2 as opposed to it being something line £45m/£28m/£16m in Years 1/2/3. The amount overall has been reduced too.
I’ll try to dig it out.
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I’ve got a copy of a document at home (I’m not at home for a few days yet so can’t access it) which showed that instead of parachute payments being paid over 3 years like it was when we previously got relegated (with the 3rd years payment being much smaller than years 1 and 2) it is now to be paid for just two years and there is more of an averaging out the total sum over years 1 and 2. In the back of my mind I have it as being now something like £36/32m in Years 1 and 2 as opposed to it being something line £45m/£28m/£16m in Years 1/2/3. The amount overall has been reduced too.
I’ll try to dig it out.
Right I’ve found it on my iPad
We received £82m in 2020/21 as fixed/guaranteed TV money last season, and our parachute payments are based on that. The actual split is 55% in Year 1, 45% in Year 2 and 20% in Year. However, we don’t get the extra 20% as were relegated after just one season. So we get £45m in Year 1 and £37m in Year 2 but zero in Year 3. That’s quite a cliff-edge if not getting promoted after 2 seasons in the Championship.
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Right I’ve found it on my iPad
We received £82m in 2020/21 as fixed/guaranteed TV money last season, and our parachute payments are based on that. The actual split is 55% in Year 1, 45% in Year 2 and 20% in Year. However, we don’t get the extra 20% as were relegated after just one season. So we get £45m in Year 1 and £37m in Year 2 but zero in Year 3. That’s quite a cliff-edge if not getting promoted after 2 seasons in the Championship.
From recollection E & S did an article about revenue at the beginning of the season.
As you highlighted, we only have parachute payments for one more season after this one, so a decision was taken to allocate some of the parachute payments (& some revenue from player sales) into a contingency fund for future seasons.
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I know absolutely zilch about the finance/ salaries etc at WBA. Neither do I have access to anyone else who might have accurate information. However, along with many/most people of anything approaching average intelligence, I do know that most of the supposedly itk stuff posted, along with all the other unsubstantiated dross on the internet is not to be trusted as the perfect truth. Anybody who actually believes using such sources as a definitive argument is therefore unlikely to be correct very often.
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Considering the recent rumours of discontent behind the scenes in recent weeks, it is now abundantly clear that the club are going to start backing Val.
Here’s hoping Dike can produce the goods which gets us into those automatic places.
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Considering the recent rumours of discontent behind the scenes in recent weeks, it is now abundantly clear that the club are going to start backing Val.
Here’s hoping Dike can produce the goods which gets us into those automatic places.
Agreed and while there are some things about him that are annoying, I'm glad we're sticking with the plan and not just flitting and changing because it's just sync'd up at the first step.
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It's still concerning that he doesn't attempt a Plan B. Getting a better CF in etc will still mean we'll have games where we need to change shape, or try something a little different, and his point blank refusal to so that is what worries me more about his management than anything else.
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I can see where the lack of discipline comes from .
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What more can we say? Out of his depth and his behaviour at the end was pathetic.
No wonder our discipline is so poor if this is the way the manager behaves.
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Somebody asked in the in game chat what Valball actually was. Well I think today answers that- few goals and a toral lack of discipline. 2 more red cards today with Mowatt and I believe Johnstone now missing 3 games each.
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Not going to get into huge debates Tonight , hope I'm wrong but theres no future in this dire football .
After Derby we expected a reaction , the first 45 mins was a disgrace . You can XG me all you want , its miles off and its due mostly to VI and a system that doesnt fit .
Game opening up so he takes the quick Fellows off for his usual 60 min sub......give me a break .
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CAN WE NOT TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!?! 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 6-1-2-1 I dont care anything but 3-4-3 valball garbage?!?!
SJ
Townsend Clarke Kipre TGH
Grady Mowatt Moloumby Robbo
Grant Dike
SJ
Townsend CLarke Kipre TGH
Molumby Mowatt Livermore
Grant Dike Robbo!?
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CAN WE NOT TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!?! 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 6-1-2-1 I dont care anything but 3-4-3 valball garbage?!?!
SJ
Townsend Clarke Kipre TGH
Grady Mowatt Moloumby Robbo
Grant Dike
SJ
Townsend CLarke Kipre TGH
Molumby Mowatt Livermore
Grant Dike Robbo!?
Scrub SJ. A red card on the 95th minute.
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Somebody asked in the in game chat what Valball actually was. Well I think today answers that- few goals and a toral lack of discipline. 2 more red cards today with Mowatt and I believe Johnstone now missing 3 games each.
Is it any wonder there’s a lack of discipline when the Manager can’t control himself. Hardly a shining example of how it’s done.
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Not going to get into huge debates Tonight , hope I'm wrong but theres no future in this dire football .
After Derby we expected a reaction , the first 45 mins was a disgrace . You can XG me all you want , its miles off and its due mostly to VI and a system that doesnt fit .
Game opening up so he takes the quick Fellows off for his usual 60 min sub......give me a break .
Fellows had done very little, I wasn't surprised he came off. Lightweight and didn't get much change out of his full back
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When you’re abusing officials because you haven’t beaten a terrible Cardiff side you know things aren’t good. Just like the PBoro game it highlights how tinpot and small time the manager of Albion is presently.
The sooner he leaves we can start to move on.
I’d urge the board to seriously look at what they want Albion to be. I don’t want this man anywhere near my football club, he’s an embarrassment.
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What more can we say? Out of his depth and his behaviour at the end was pathetic.
No wonder our discipline is so poor if this is the way the manager behaves.
The only way this will be a good thing is if he gets the sack tonight. He has no place at this club and if rumour is true that Lai was there he should see that this is not the actions of a good manager.
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Scrub SJ. A red card on the 95th minute.
Yes and Mowatt but i meant in general. Just change the bloody system Val!
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The only way this will be a good thing is if he gets the sack tonight. He has no place at this club and if rumour is true that Lao was there he should see that this is not the actions of a good manager.
Lai was there by all accounts. Not returned to China since his visit.
Val is showing big signs of cracking. He's been found out.
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An awful appointment and totally inept. Get rid of this fraud now.
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Lai was there by all accounts. Not returned to China since his visit.
Val is showing big signs of cracking. He's been found out.
He was found out in August. By Darren Ferguson no less.
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He was found out in August. By Darren Ferguson no less.
Indeed he was and he didn't like it one bit.
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Fellows had done very little, I wasn't surprised he came off. Lightweight and didn't get much change out of his full back
Really ?, I thought after our lucky goal he was getting into good position's at the back post . Can we just try something different ? Valball by numbers isn't a lot of fun.
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They've just backed him with Dyke
He's going nowhere
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He was found out in August. By Darren Ferguson no less.
Exactly. That was the moment it all started going wrong for me. He acted like a lower league manager, PBoro had defended brilliantly and we got lucky.
He’s a thug pretending he’s clever.
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Val has been backed with Dike acquisition and will be here for foreseeable future, thought the player’s left him down today with midfield showing nothing and chances we had especially Robinson not getting on to simple tap in showing our weakness in final third. Reach had opportunity after opportunity to put in descent crosses and he failed miserably, think he needs to introduce even more youngsters as the one’s involved didn’t look out of place.
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Exactly. That was the moment it all started going wrong for me. He acted like a lower league manager, PBoro had defended brilliantly and we got lucky.
He’s a thug pretending he’s clever.
ahh and there it is. “thugâ€. No need for that.
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Val has been backed with Dike acquisition and will be here for foreseeable future, thought the player’s left him down today with midfield showing nothing and chances we had especially Robinson not getting on to simple tap in showing our weakness in final third. Reach had opportunity after opportunity to put in descent crosses and he failed miserably, think he needs to introduce even more youngsters as the one’s involved didn’t look out of place.
He picks the midfield week in and week out.
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ahh and there it is. “thugâ€. No need for that.
What would you call it? Twice he’s shown thuggish behaviour when things don’t go his way.
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VI's system and certain players will finish him here , Dike to me feels like his last roll of the dice .
Lets not let the pantomine finish paint over one of the worst 45 mins this season , lumping balls to nobody again.
Point at the quality of the squad all you want this blokes making it worse .
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What would you call it? Twice he’s shown thuggish behaviour when things don’t go his way.
If I remember correctly we were loving the attitude against Ferguson and calling Ferguson a melt for the way he reacted because things were going well for us. But now Val does something similar and because things aren’t going as well it’s suddenly thuggish?
I think it just shows he was really desperate for a winner at the end. Which shows his passion for the team but also shows the pressure building.
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If I remember correctly we were loving the attitude against Ferguson and calling Ferguson a melt for the way he reacted because things were going well for us. But now Val does something similar and because things aren’t going as well it’s suddenly thuggish?
I think it just shows he was really desperate for a winner at the end. Which shows his passion for the team but also shows the pressure building.
Theres a big difference between running down a touchline and celebrating and stiding on the pitch after a referee and starting a melee.
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He picks the midfield week in and week out.
and that’s why I’m calling for more introductions from youth team, can’t see him being sacked but I’d get over dross if he’d introduce more youngsters who with their natural youthful energy might suit his system more .
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They've just backed him with Dyke
He's going nowhere
If a manager is untouchable because he’s bought a player we’re in big trouble, because this guy is clueless.
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Exactly. That was the moment it all started going wrong for me. He acted like a lower league manager, PBoro had defended brilliantly and we got lucky.
He’s a thug pretending he’s clever.
Can we leave the "thug" comments for elsewhere please, not wanted on this forum
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and that’s why I’m calling for more introductions from youth team, can’t see him being sacked but I’d get over dross if he’d introduce more youngsters who with their natural youthful energy might suit his system more .
I don't think he's the type to do that unless his hand is forced though.
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If I remember correctly we were loving the attitude against Ferguson and calling Ferguson a melt for the way he reacted because things were going well for us. But now Val does something similar and because things aren’t going as well it’s suddenly thuggish?
I think it just shows he was really desperate for a winner at the end. Which shows his passion for the team but also shows the pressure building.
I hate this ‘it show passion’ rubbish. It shows someone out of control of their emotions and unable to accept their own failings.
He’s desperate and clutching at straws. Tactically he’s getting out thought week in week out by so called lesser managers. He knows it as well.
He doesn’t have the answers and we should sack him this evening.
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Can we leave the "thug" comments for elsewhere please, not wanted on this forum
Ok, what would you call his behaviour?
Sorry but I have to call it as I see it.
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He seems to be purely an 'underdog' manager which would suit us in the PL but not in this awful awful league.
He cannot handle any kind of pressure or criticism. He's gorra goooooooooo.
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Apparently it was Livermore who held him back and saved Val from himself. Well done JL.
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I said it after Peterborough. He needs to go tonight.
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Apparently it was Livermore who held him back and saved Val from himself. Well done JL.
Thats him picked for the next 10 games ;D
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Thats him picked for the next 10 games ;D
I didn't think of that! Cheers Dexy :P
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I said it after Peterborough. He needs to go tonight.
You said he needed to go after Peterborough? That’s not foresight that’s just insanity.
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If I remember correctly we were loving the attitude against Ferguson and calling Ferguson a melt for the way he reacted because things were going well for us. But now Val does something similar and because things aren’t going as well it’s suddenly thuggish?
I think it just shows he was really desperate for a winner at the end. Which shows his passion for the team but also shows the pressure building.
In hindsight Ferguson was absolutely spot on with his assessment of Ismael. He is arrogant, he does think he knows it all and he does need to calm down and take a look at himself
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You said he needed to go after Peterborough? That’s not foresight that’s just insanity.
I also said the same to my mates. Found out big time. In itself that didn't worry me as I expected him to adapt and change but he hasn't, that's the madness of it all.
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More passion from VI than most of our support at the ground
Better atmospheres at the morgue
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More passion from VI than most of our support at the ground
Better atmospheres at the morgue
Would you have any passion watching that every week?
They’ll be under 10k at home games if he stays manager.
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You said he needed to go after Peterborough? That’s not foresight that’s just insanity.
It’s not though, we were lucky big time that night and the way we played it was clear his style is not for us. I was mocked for saying it then, but hes not for us, and I stand by that. I also stand by worst Manager here since Gould. He will not change or do anything. As glad I the club signed dike, I personally hope they have some money left to fire this bloke
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He is passionate, but most of the best managers are. Was Sir Alex F a shrinking violet?
Even Wenger could get passionate. But he has to learn to learn not to cross a certain line, even when a ref. has chickened out of giving a last minute pen. Keeping the players disciplined is vital.
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Would you have any passion watching that every week?
They’ll be under 10k at home games if he stays manager.
Atmospheres been dead for years ever since Clarkes second season
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If a manager is untouchable because he’s bought a player we’re in big trouble, because this guy is clueless.
If the board keep sacking the manager and coaching staff every six months like a few on here ask for in the heated aftermath of a disappointing result for we would be in even bigger trouble. Some of fan base are even more impatient than the Watford board. We're 4th in the championship with 21 games to go. We have a decent squad at this level but we are not a stand out team and everyone hopes Dike will kick us on a gear. I'm all for criticising team selections, substitutions, performances, signings etc and have my own thoughts regularly but the clamour to "sack the manager" every time we don't win is completely overboard and usually, knee jerk reaction. Everyone is entitled to their view but a bit more patience and realism from the stands would not go amiss.
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If the board keep sacking the manager and coaching staff every six months like a few on here ask for in the heated aftermath of a disappointing result for we would be in even bigger trouble. Some of fan base are even more impatient than the Watford board. We're 4th in the championship with 21 games to go. We have a decent squad at this level but we are not a stand out team and everyone hopes Dike will kick us on a gear. I'm all for criticising team selections, substitutions, performances, signings etc and have my own thoughts regularly but the clamour to "sack the manager" every time we don't win is completely overboard and usually, knee jerk reaction. Everyone is entitled to their view but a bit more patience and realism from the stands would not go amiss.
Post of the year
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Exactly. That was the moment it all started going wrong for me. He acted like a lower league manager, PBoro had defended brilliantly and we got lucky.
He’s a thug pretending he’s clever.
May I respectfully suggest that from most of your previous posts it all started going wrong for you the minute Ismael was appointed manager.
As for thuggery, I was only able to watch the game on tv from just before Diangana had a couple of efforts blocked, but from what I saw it was some of the Cardiff players providing most of it. They were either being allowed to get away with it by an inconsistently lenient ref. or maybe the rules of soccer have changed, and blocking without the ball, holding, shirt pulling, diving and feigning injury, late challenges and kicking from behind are all now acceptable. Those lesser managers who often get the better of us seem to be the ones who can harness this sort of play and not have their players sent off. ie in the last two away games or get goals mistakenly allowed or disallowed most often in their favour.
However, I do tend to agree generally that we need to see more from our present manager regarding tactics and team selections than we are getting at the moment, albeit with a set of very limited senior players. Even with what some perceive as VI's shortcomings, and others who lay the blame with the players, we should in the last three games alone, have scored three or four goals that would have given us wins, and other efforts have been blocked by some, desperate and at times lucky deflections, as well as some brilliant defensive work.
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If the board keep sacking the manager and coaching staff every six months like a few on here ask for in the heated aftermath of a disappointing result for we would be in even bigger trouble. Some of fan base are even more impatient than the Watford board. We're 4th in the championship with 21 games to go. We have a decent squad at this level but we are not a stand out team and everyone hopes Dike will kick us on a gear. I'm all for criticising team selections, substitutions, performances, signings etc and have my own thoughts regularly but the clamour to "sack the manager" every time we don't win is completely overboard and usually, knee jerk reaction. Everyone is entitled to their view but a bit more patience and realism from the stands would not go amiss.
Check our current form from the last 10 games.
He stays we go down next year.
Patience is fine when you can see what someone is trying to do. This clown isn’t attempting anything that will benefit Albion in the long term whatsoever. He’s just tarnishing the club.
There are better managers available at this very moment. That is why you act.
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Post of the year
Totally agree. The short-termism of our fans is ridiculous. We cannot keep changing the manager every year. He inherited a mess - as did the last few - yet we hound them our before they’ve had a chance to turn it around.
Football Manager has a lot to answer for.
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May I respectfully suggest that from most of your previous posts it all started going wrong for you the minute Ismael was appointed manager.
As for thuggery, I was only able to watch the game on tv from just before Diangana had a couple of efforts blocked, but from what I saw it was some of the Cardiff players providing most of it. They were either being allowed to get away with it by an inconsistently lenient ref. or maybe the rules of soccer have changed, and blocking without the ball, holding, shirt pulling, diving and feigning injury, late challenges and kicking from behind are all now acceptable. Those lesser managers who often get the better of us seem to be the ones who can harness this sort of play and not have their players sent off. ie in the last two away games or get goals mistakenly allowed or disallowed most often in their favour.
However, I do tend to agree generally that we need to see more from our present manager regarding tactics and team selections than we are getting at the moment, albeit with a set of very limited senior players. Even with what some perceive as VI's shortcomings, and others who lay the blame with the players, we should in the last three games alone, have scored three or four goals that would have given us wins, and other efforts have been blocked by some, desperate and at times lucky deflections, as well as some brilliant defensive work.
Oddly I was excited when we appointed him as I thought it might be the change we needed. It was very clear, very quickly this was a disaster for the Albion.
He just isn’t good enough. Sometimes that is all it’s about.
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Totally agree. The short-termism of our fans is ridiculous. We cannot keep changing the manager every year. He inherited a mess - as did the last few - yet we hound them our before they’ve had a chance to turn it around.
Football Manager has a lot to answer for.
So even if he’s utter rubbish we should keep him then?
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Check our current form from the last 10 games.
He stays we go down next year.
Patience is fine when you can see what someone is trying to do. This clown isn’t attempting anything that will benefit Albion in the long term whatsoever. He’s just tarnishing the club.
There are better managers available at this very moment. That is why you act.
. A total over-reaction. We are actually 4th in the league but with a strong but under-performing squad. We’ve just made an amazing signing.
Everyone just needs to take a chill pill.
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. A total over-reaction. We are actually 4th in the league but with a strong but under-performing squad. We’ve just made an amazing signing.
Everyone just needs to take a chill pill.
Well said. If I'd just landing from another planet and not seen the league table I'd presume we were 16th reading the posts from Groovephil.
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Totally agree. The short-termism of our fans is ridiculous. We cannot keep changing the manager every year. He inherited a mess - as did the last few - yet we hound them our before they’ve had a chance to turn it around.
Football Manager has a lot to answer for.
Agreed and for the football manager statos out there I would say only manager in clubs history to go first 10 games unbeaten, only club in league unbeaten at home still, best defence in the division.
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Post of the year
Utter nonsense. A total over-reaction. We are actually 4th in the league but with a strong but under-performing squad. We’ve just made an amazing signing.
Everyone just needs to take a chill pill.
Can’t believe the backing Val has. He has ONE tactic, it’s Sunday league and it’s pathetic. I’d rather not change manager all the time, but this guys useless, simple as that. Dike is not the answer, he will help, but we need so much more if he plays 343. Garbage.
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So even if he’s utter rubbish we should keep him then?
Let him bring in more of his own players to strengthen. Then judge. The entire squad needed to be overhauled. In the real world that never, ever, happens in one transfer window before a new manager’s first season. It is impossible to offload the deadwood that quickly and reshape the squad, and he knows the ability and character of what he inherited. He still needs to ease several more out, abs can’t just rip up their contracts. We might not like it, but that’s reality. We need to be patient.
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e. A total over-reaction. We are actually 4th in the league but with a strong but under-performing squad. We’ve just made an amazing signing.
Everyone just needs to take a chill pill.
Let’s make a good note of this moment and see how it looks at the end of the season shall we.
We are walking into just scraping mid table if we are lucky.
We’ve made ‘A’ signing. I tend to judge people on results, not what they might do. That is how clubs slide through the leagues.
When was the last time we played well?
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If the board keep sacking the manager and coaching staff every six months like a few on here ask for in the heated aftermath of a disappointing result for we would be in even bigger trouble. Some of fan base are even more impatient than the Watford board. We're 4th in the championship with 21 games to go. We have a decent squad at this level but we are not a stand out team and everyone hopes Dike will kick us on a gear. I'm all for criticising team selections, substitutions, performances, signings etc and have my own thoughts regularly but the clamour to "sack the manager" every time we don't win is completely overboard and usually, knee jerk reaction. Everyone is entitled to their view but a bit more patience and realism from the stands would not go amiss.
Good post. The players at his disposal are not as special as some like to make out. Maybe just 2 of the players starting today could make it in the PL (both ironically red carded today). Alot on here were calling for youth players to be started, and our 2 best youth prospects started today, but it hardly raised the overall perfomance. That said, we absolutely need to keep including them, so that they continue to develop, but don't expect them to dramatically raise the team's perfomance.
We have a shortage of creativity in midfield, wingbacks who are inprecise with their crossing and forwards who are not quite skilful enough or alert enough to capitalise on the chances coming their way. Hopefully Dike improves the latter.
At least VI has a clear idea of what he is trying to do. He can only work with the players at his disposal. Aside from Cleary everyone has been given a chance.
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Can’t believe the backing Val has. He has ONE tactic, it’s Sunday league and it’s pathetic. I’d rather not change manager all the time, but this guys useless, simple as that. Dike is not the answer, he will help, but we need so much more if he plays 343. Garbage.
Vi has his faults and isn't blameless but taking a club like Barnsley to the play offs and getting to the Europa quarter finals is not a clueless manager
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The players are better than every other team in this League bar 2.
He played one way with Barnsley and went under the radar to some degree, it was a good achievement but we should not have been appointing a manager with no experience of championship promotion.
Wilder was the choice all day long.
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Let’s make a good note of this moment and see how it looks at the end of the season shall we.
We are walking into just scraping mid table if we are lucky.
We’ve made ‘A’ signing. I tend to judge people on results, not what they might do. That is how clubs slide through the leagues.
When was the last time we played well?
Yes - judging at the end of the season is exactly when to judge - as I was saying!
No - chopping and changing managers so that each new manager inherits an unsuitable squad is what causes clubs to slide down the leagues.
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The players are better than every other team in this League bar 2.
He played one way with Barnsley and went under the radar to some degree, it was a good achievement but we should not have been appointing a manager with no experience of championship promotion.
Wilder was the choice all day long.
Wilder was a non runner to the owner! He also thought more of Burke than he did of Robinson , so far from perfect . Fact is we have VI and it’s time our fans accepted it and asked more questions of those on the pitch !
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Yes - judging at the end of the season is exactly when to judge - as I was saying!
No - chopping and changing managers so that each new manager inherits an unsuitable squad is what causes clubs to slide down the leagues.
Tell me one championship manager recently who has had the luxury of building his own team? It doesn’t happen anymore. Look at Fulham and Bournemouth, new managers working with what is there which is a team of champ and some low level Prem players.
I don’t trust this guy to get the subs right so I sure as hell ain’t trusting him with all transfers.
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The players are better than every other team in this League bar 2.
He played one way with Barnsley and went under the radar to some degree, it was a good achievement but we should not have been appointing a manager with no experience of championship promotion.
Wilder was the choice all day long.
For the record I’d have very happily gone with Wilder as one awful season in a very tough Premier League did not cancel out his excellent track record over precious seasons but many on here did not want him because of that one poor season (although Lai made the decision for other reasons).
Many on here wrote off Potter too (“what has he ever done in England�)….
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Can’t believe the backing Val has. He has ONE tactic, it’s Sunday league and it’s pathetic. I’d rather not change manager all the time, but this guys useless, simple as that. Dike is not the answer, he will help, but we need so much more if he plays 343. Garbage.
-4th in the league after 25 games
-Unbeaten first 10 league games (club record)
-Best defensive record in the league
-Most shots on goal in the league
Just imagine if Val had TWO tactics? We'd be champions already...
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Would you have any passion watching that every week?
They’ll be under 10k at home games if he stays manager.
At least they will be loyal supporters. :o
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Tell me one championship manager recently who has had the luxury of building his own team? It doesn’t happen anymore. Look at Fulham and Bournemouth, new managers working with what is there which is a team of champ and some low level Prem players.
I don’t trust this guy to get the subs right so I sure as hell ain’t trusting him with all transfers.
Exactly my point - most Championship managers get hounded out by fickle fans before being given enough time. That’s why do so many big clubs get stuck in the Championship and slide into mediocrity.
Fulham and Bournemouth came down with megabucks owners and didn’t need to offload their squad. They kept them and have by far the two strongest squads in the division. We have the 3rd strongest and are 4th. As another poster said earlier, based on your posts anyone would think we are 16th!
Repeated short-termism will turn us into a Birmingham. A different manager might have us 3rd at best rather than 4th!
Keep believing - back the manager (because he’s going nowhere fast), and see where we get to in the play-offs but we have no divine right to get automatic promotion this season and some seem deluded if they think we should. Don’t get me wrong - we could and arguably should be 8-10 points better off but without acquiring a striker in the summer that’s where we are.
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Exactly my point - most Championship managers get hounded out by fickle fans before being given enough time. That’s why do so many big clubs get stuck in the Championship and slide into mediocrity.
Fulham and Bournemouth came down with megabucks owners and didn’t need to offload their squad. They kept them and have by far the two strongest squads in the division. We have the 3rd strongest and are 4th. As another poster said earlier, based on your posts anyone would think we are 16th!
Repeated short-termism will turn us into a Birmingham. A different manager might have us 3rd at best rather than 4th!
Keep believing - back the manager (because he’s going nowhere fast), and see where we get to in the play-offs but we have no divine right to get automatic promotion this season and some seem deluded if they think we should. Don’t get me wrong - we could and arguably should be 8-10 points better off but without acquiring a striker in the summer that’s where we are.
Spot on and lets hope Dike can get on the goals trail and turn a few of these frustrating draws into wins.
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Really ?, I thought after our lucky goal he was getting into good position's at the back post . Can we just try something different ? Valball by numbers isn't a lot of fun.
It's really difficult to criticise a young player, but it was clear to me after about 2 minutes that our right side wasn't working, think I'd have taken Fellows off.
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Maybe we should have appointed the albion 'legend' whose currently got his side to 21st in league 1
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I can't understand why so many on here think we have a basically good squad? I beg to differ....its very very average, little creativity in the middle, wide players unable to cross, and an unreliable keeper. Our future is going to be a long slow rebuild in this division....no matter who the manager is. We have to get used to that and still give them all our support.
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It's really difficult to criticise a young player, but it was clear to me after about 2 minutes that our right side wasn't working, think I'd have taken Fellows off.
Cardiff were a big set of lads a rugged organised championship team . Fellows did ok but i felt their physicality was a bit much for him at times .
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Oddly I was excited when we appointed him as I thought it might be the change we needed. It was very clear, very quickly this was a disaster for the Albion.
He just isn’t good enough. Sometimes that is all it’s about.
Fair enough. Personally, and as one who does not believe getting into the prem this season is necessarily essential, I prefer to give VI a bit more time to try and develop a side that could eventually get there and stay for a while. Whoever is in charge needs time to build, and if we do go up we will need a lot of new faces in the team to give us any hope. I would like that team to have strikers as prolific and effective as a Mitrovic, and be as hard working and able to press as effectively as Leeds were, whilst playing with the creativity in midfield that Periera provided. I don't think we are too far away defensively when all are fit, and I don't see anybody out there any more likely to deliver this than the bloke we already have. Potter was my original preference, but VI does after all seem to have the trust of the blokes in charge, rightly or wrongly. For me two full transfer windows with adequate backing to get together the spine of this sort of team ought to be a minimum, and I am prepared to wait for a bit before kicking up a fuss. for as much good that will do :D
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Couple of things I don't get.
1) Comparing how good this squad is with what's required for the Prem. We are in the Championship, compare our players against other teams in the Championship if you want to judge expectations.
2) "We're 4th". Remember when it was all "we're top", then "we're second still", then "we are still in touch with the top 2", then "we're third"? We had a healthy lead at the start of the season and our form has slipped so much that we've fallen into the chasing pack.
The issue is that we aren't seeing any improvement or variation in tactics. The fact we've still got enough points to be 4th is testament to how good the players actually are in comparison to the rest of the division.
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I can't understand why so many on here think we have a basically good squad? I beg to differ....its very very average, little creativity in the middle, wide players unable to cross, and an unreliable keeper. Our future is going to be a long slow rebuild in this division....no matter who the manager is. We have to get used to that and still give them all our support.
Agree. 100%.
I have gradually lost some confidence in Ismael, especially after his appalling behaviour today. Leaders should set an example.
But this is a poor team with many overrated players. Diangana, for example - supposedly one of the shining talents that make us so much better than other Championship sides. He hasn’t played well for two years, but people still think he’s about to become a superstar if only….
The fundamental issue is to have better players. That will help us win more matches.
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I can't understand why so many on here think we have a basically good squad? I beg to differ....its very very average, little creativity in the middle, wide players unable to cross, and an unreliable keeper. Our future is going to be a long slow rebuild in this division....no matter who the manager is. We have to get used to that and still give them all our support.
Average compared to what though? Compared to the rest of the league we have one of the best squads. I mean we have average players in the respect of their skill levels, but if you compare them to who they're playing against then we are well above average quality.
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Cardiff were a big set of lads a rugged organised championship team . Fellows did ok but i felt their physicality was a bit much for him at times .
I felt spaces were opening up , wouldn't have minded so much but Grady has been off form or had it been about a 70 min sub . Mind you Mowatts stupid card messed both outcomes up .
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I can't understand why so many on here think we have a basically good squad? I beg to differ....its very very average, little creativity in the middle, wide players unable to cross, and an unreliable keeper. Our future is going to be a long slow rebuild in this division....no matter who the manager is. We have to get used to that and still give them all our support.
It's not that our squad is amazingly brilliant but it's more the rest of the teams in this division are so incredibly poor.
We would absolutely get smashed in the PL but we are not in the PL. We are in the weakest champo we will see in our lifetimes.
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I’m still in the let’s give VI time camp. However, we clearly need signings. I think DD will make a difference. He’ll disrupt defences more which hopefully will lead to goals for him and those around him. We need two quality wingbacks and a CM player who can tackle and pass. If we get three more quality players in we’ll see if we have enough quality in the front three. It will take time.
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I’m still in the let’s give VI time camp. However, we clearly need signings. I think DD will make a difference. He’ll disrupt defences more which hopefully will lead to goals for him and those around him. We need two quality wingbacks and a CM player who can tackle and pass. If we get three more quality players in we’ll see if we have enough quality in the front three. It will take time.
Sounds expensive and Val loves Livermore so another CM would be a waste of time and money
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Maybe we should have appointed the albion 'legend' whose currently got his side to 21st in league 1
We got rid of him at the exact right time but a lot on this board would have kept him.
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Sounds expensive and Val loves Livermore so another CM would be a waste of time and money
It will be and doubt much more will happen in this window. The alternative is to rip it all up and start yet again. Can we afford to do that?
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Couple of things I don't get.
1) Comparing how good this squad is with what's required for the Prem. We are in the Championship, compare our players against other teams in the Championship if you want to judge expectations.
2) "We're 4th". Remember when it was all "we're top", then "we're second still", then "we are still in touch with the top 2", then "we're third"? We had a healthy lead at the start of the season and our form has slipped so much that we've fallen into the chasing pack.
The issue is that we aren't seeing any improvement or variation in tactics. The fact we've still got enough points to be 4th is testament to how good the players actually are in comparison to the rest of the division.
Completely agree with this. Rather than the players being awful and Ismael doing well to get anything out of them as some seem to suggest, I would suggest to the contrary it’s only because the players are amongst the best in the league that we are anywhere near the top IN SPITE of whatever the hell it is that Ismael is trying to get them to do. Case in point being some of the bangers Grant has scored that have bailed us out.
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It will be and doubt much more will happen in this window. The alternative is to rip it all up and start yet again. Can we afford to do that?
I don't think we need to. All we've done so far is spent 7m on Dike which we needed regardless and some frees and loans. We are at the point of walking away with little damage done.
Last time we stayed with a manager too long look what damage the toxic duo of Bilic and Dowling caused
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Everyone is a manager eh?
We all think we know the answers don't we?
We all know the best players don't we?
We all know the best players don't we?
Trouble is there is only one manager and thats big Val.
Whose fault is it the players who some say are not good enough, so sack them or the manager?
Some say its his tactics so sack the manager, whose been here 5 minutes.
Sign a striker we say so on the first day of window he does so do we still sack the manager?
Red cards today were ridiculous do we still blame the manager or the players or sack them all?
Let the manager manage after this season he will only be 25% into his reign, sack him then and pay him off?
I don't think so, I'm not happy that we should be winning more games but I'm afraid we have to be patient
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Everyone is a manager eh?
We all think we know the answers don't we?
We all know the best players don't we?
We all know the best players don't we?
Trouble is there is only one manager and thats big Val.
Whose fault is it the players who some say are not good enough, so sack them or the manager?
Some say its his tactics so sack the manager, whose been here 5 minutes.
Sign a striker we say so on the first day of window he does so do we still sack the manager?
Red cards today were ridiculous do we still blame the manager or the players or sack them all?
Let the manager manage after this season he will only be 25% into his reign, sack him then and pay him off?
I don't think so, I'm not happy that we should be winning more games but I'm afraid we have to be patient
Exactly
I remember when we beat Norwich early doors in big daves season they were calling for farkhes head as they were in the bottom half of the league. 2 promotions later...
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We got rid of him at the exact right time but a lot on this board would have kept him.
So are you saying that your opinion is more valid than "a lot on this board"?
If so, could you give the reasons why please?
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We got rid of him at the exact right time but a lot on this board would have kept him.
I personally think we should have appointed a new manager at the start of the season. But that was politically impossible after the results at the back end of the previous campaign.
But it’s all a matter of opinion, and it’s now ancient history anyway.
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So are you saying that your opinion is more valid than "a lot on this board"?
If so, could you give the reasons why please?
How on earth do you get that from what I said?
Dave, like Val has no experience of managing a promotion. Albion don’t need this now.
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https://www.wba.co.uk/news/ismaels-take-cardiff-city-draw?fbclid=IwAR0NsRb8jX1PfBnzt_eas18U5BZ6o39b5HaeZWywSLBrwB7cCp6cIgD7f30
So according to Val, like 100s on here, the new signing will solve all the issues.
Nothing like dumping a load of pressure on a guy who hasn’t even played yet. Wonderful management.
If he can’t see that the formation, tactics, player selection is the bigger issue I despair.
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Our goalkeeper is now suspended for three games for getting involved in a brawl caused by Ismael being unable to control himself and running onto the pitch having a pop at anyone in his path.
It’s unprofessional and shows why we are such an indisciplined outfit - it comes from the top.
He needs to go ASAP.
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How on earth do you get that from what I said?
Dave, like Val has no experience of managing a promotion. Albion don’t need this now.
How would you interpret this then
We got rid of him at the exact right time but a lot on this board would have kept him
in response to this
Maybe we should have appointed the albion 'legend' whose currently got his side to 21st in league 1
Also, pretty Sure Michael Appleton is manager at Lincoln City
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Our goalkeeper is now suspended for three games for getting involved in a brawl caused by Ismael being unable to control himself and running onto the pitch having a pop at anyone in his path.
It’s unprofessional and shows why we are such an indisciplined outfit - it comes from the top.
He needs to go ASAP.
Ismael didn't get within 15 yards of the ref. If anything O think it was the bald-headed assistant who caused the fracas
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Ismael didn't get within 15 yards of the ref. If anything O think it was the bald-headed assistant who caused the fracas
Nor was he ever going to. He acted like a complete tool
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I've no problem with Ismael having a go. It's an emotional sport, heat of the moment and a reaction to an abysmal decision that cost us two points.
The referee caused the melee.
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I've no problem with Ismael having a go. It's an emotional sport, heat of the moment and a reaction to an abysmal decision that cost us two points.
The referee caused the melee.
Even if he had given the penalty we still had to score , I’m not sure I would have trusted any one to score .
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Have no problem with what he did.
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Val sticks up for his players, to me this match proves the squad are together, they care about each other, rhats a good sign for me, I want to see our manager who's passionate for our club, he's our Klopp
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Val sticks up for his players, to me this match proves the squad are together, they care about each other, rhats a good sign for me, I want to see our manager who's passionate for our club, he's our Klopp
Agreed
Sadly some are never statsfied
Hound the bloke out we will end up with an Alex Neil type
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Stop "bigging" him up.
He is out of his depth and can't see what is happening in play.
He needs to see what is playing out on the field and adjust.
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Stop "bigging" him up.
He is out of his depth and can't see what is happening in play.
He needs to see what is playing out on the field and adjust.
What would you have done differently today?
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Stop "bigging" him up.
He is out of his depth and can't see what is happening in play.
He needs to see what is playing out on the field and adjust.
Has he the players who can adjust?
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Ishmael hit a new low after the game when he criticised Cardiff’s style of play, claiming that they came to waste time. I remember Klop adopting similar defensive comments when we frustrated Liverpool.
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Everyone is a manager eh?
We all think we know the answers don't we?
We all know the best players don't we?
We all know the best players don't we?
Trouble is there is only one manager and thats big Val.
Whose fault is it the players who some say are not good enough, so sack them or the manager?
Some say its his tactics so sack the manager, whose been here 5 minutes.
Sign a striker we say so on the first day of window he does so do we still sack the manager?
Red cards today were ridiculous do we still blame the manager or the players or sack them all?
Let the manager manage after this season he will only be 25% into his reign, sack him then and pay him off?
I don't think so, I'm not happy that we should be winning more games but I'm afraid we have to be patient
Correct. Let the manager manage. I don't mind the fans having their say and their views, we all have them. It was quite depressing today, but what depresses me more is our fans at the game. As I say we all have our views, but we can't pick the team or the formation. So what can we do to affect the game? We can bloody support the team can't we. I know it's difficult when we witness games like today, but when I see fans not even managing a round of applause when we do something good, or shouting encouragement, I despair. It's not just today either, it's every game.
The Brummie isn't the same as it used to be like years ago, and the Smethwick end gets quieter with every passing game. There are fans who are vocal, just join in when they start singing or chanting. Get out your comfort zone and start being vocal, use your hands to clap, be noisy and get behind the team. By doing that we might, just might make a difference, because has fans that's all we can do.
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What would you have done differently today?
99% will tell you the system needs tweaking , 2 in the middle get outnumbered most weeks . Im convinced if we had 3 we'd have better balance . Not convinced we need 3 CB's but that said you could easily remove one of the front three . Theres very little coming through the middle.
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99% will tell you the system needs tweaking , 2 in the middle get outnumbered most weeks . Im convinced if we had 3 we'd have better balance . Not convinced we need 3 CB's but that said you could easily remove one of the front three . Theres very little coming through the middle.
Thanks for your comments, at least they're constructive.
I'm really starting to weary of the throw away remarks we seem to be getting.
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He’s our man and has my support 100%, let him build a team, I’ve been impressed with his signing so far and we’ve finally landed a true number 9. It’s going to be a good second half of the season and we will win the play offs...you heard it here first.
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99% will tell you the system needs tweaking , 2 in the middle get outnumbered most weeks . Im convinced if we had 3 we'd have better balance . Not convinced we need 3 CB's but that said you could easily remove one of the front three . Theres very little coming through the middle.
This 100%. I don't even mind starting the way we're doing but in games where we have control and struggling to get it forward - exactly like today - we need to change things. It's another game where I think switching to a back 4 and an extra man in midfield would have helped. Cardiff didn't have a lot about them. To be fair, we might have done that (I seriously doubt it though) but the sending off put paid to any chance of changing it.
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Thanks for your comments, at least they're constructive.
I'm really starting to weary of the throw away remarks we seem to be getting.
I grow weary of a manger who shows absolute zero ability to overcome teams that setup and nullify his painfully obvious tactics.
Throwaway enough for you?
As you’re clearly fan can you explain to me what you see it what he is doing that will get better with time?
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Current system and tactics ain't working so why keep doing it. Try something different like 442 to give us more control in the midfield or maybe go back to the high press that was successful in first quarter of the season or is that asking too much from these players.
I'm surprised were where we are considering we've played half a season without a striker.
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I grow weary of a manger who shows absolute zero ability to overcome teams that setup and nullify his painfully obvious tactics.
Throwaway enough for you?
As you’re clearly fan can you explain to me what you see it what he is doing that will get better with time?
You make it all sound quite simple, but the best managers have difficulty breaking compact defences down, and certainly if they had too work with the squad we have.
At the end of the day you get at a defence around the flanks or through the middle. (or rely on set pieces). In using the flanks, VI is using a well tested and proven method. We could put in an extra central midfielder, but have we the players who can provide the link up play or through passes which will end in goal chances? And who do you sacrifice for the extra midfielder? if we lose a forward, the team drops deeper and we lose width up front. We could go to a back 4 but then the wing backs presumably have to stay back more, so we lose our outlets down the flanks.
I'm not saying Val couldn't give it a go, but I don't believe you'd see a dramatic improvement in performance with this set of players. The players would also have to learn their new roles.
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You make it all sound quite simple, but the best managers have difficulty breaking compact defences down, and certainly if they had too work with the squad we have.
At the end of the day you get at a defence around the flanks or through the middle. (or rely on set pieces). In using the flanks, VI is using a well tested and proven method. We could put in an extra central midfielder, but have we the players who can provide the link up play or through passes which will end in goal chances? And who do you sacrifice for the extra midfielder? if we lose a forward, the team drops deeper and we lose width up front. We could go to a back 4 but then the wing backs presumably have to stay back more, so we lose our outlets down the flanks.
I'm not saying Val couldn't give it a go, but I don't believe you'd see a dramatic improvement in performance with this set of players. The players would also have to learn their new roles.
That would make sense if you had players suitable to playing around the flanks. We don't have particularly good crossers of the ball, our wing backs aren't very attacking, and our forward players aren't exactly giants in the air. I don't think anyone objects to us starting games like that but we certainly could show some ambition and change things up when Plan A doesn't work. It's not so much that I object to Plan A, it's that there is no other plan.
It's similar flaw to Allardyce for me - played a style of football that wasn't suited to the players.
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Average compared to what though? Compared to the rest of the league we have one of the best squads. I mean we have average players in the respect of their skill levels, but if you compare them to who they're playing against then we are well above average quality.
Which the table reflects, 20 sides below us.
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I grow weary of a manger who shows absolute zero ability to overcome teams that setup and nullify his painfully obvious tactics.
Throwaway enough for you?
As you’re clearly fan can you explain to me what you see it what he is doing that will get better with time?
If you mean I'm 100% behind VI, then you'd be wrong, I've said on numerous occasions that I'm uncomfortable with the asthetics of his interpretation of the 3:4:3 formation.
On the the other hand, I believe the 3:4:3 formation is very flexible & does give us competitive advantage, the in game stats tend to suggest that it's working too.
A 3:4:3 formation can become 2:5:3 or 2:3:5 when were attacking & 5:2:3 when we're defending.
Kipre, in particular, joins the mid field to make a 3 man midfield & It's just not true to say all of our crosses are lofted or over hit.
It's also not true to say that lofted balls out of defence are hit in hope.
We're in transition, & although there's still a lot to do, I believe we're moving in the right direction.
Where we are is far more nuanced than being good or bad.
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Which the table reflects, 20 sides below us.
We are only there because of the start we had. On current form we are a lot lower.
We now find ourselves in a dogfight to actually make the play offs.
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We are only there because of the start we had. On current form we are a lot lower.
We now find ourselves in a dogfight to actually make the play offs.
That true. Rule out the games before VI got worked out we would be struggling big time
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I reckon over the last 2 months, this Manager has pretty much lost the plot. The running on the pitch and outburst shows the pressure he's now feeling.
For me he's made disasterous decisions recently:
1) He can't make his mind up between Furlong and Garder-Hickman, constantly chopping and changing.
2) Hugill should have been banished weeks ago and Cleary promoted in his place (even if he was just utilised off the bench). Why did he persist so long with Hugill?
3) He won't drop Livermore for love nor money, despite him being consistently useless. Molumby is better, fact.
4) I'm convinced Mowatt's drop in performance is down to playing alongside someone so ineffective.
In summary, this complete and utter mess in central midfield will cost us over and over again in forthcoming matches.
If I was him I'd ship out 5 players right now and bring in Yokuslu with the funds.
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In the last 12 games we've scored 9 goals, got 4 reds and got 17 points. That's not good at all considering this is the worst championship ever
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I reckon over the last 2 months, this Manager has pretty much lost the plot. The running on the pitch and outburst shows the pressure he's now feeling.
For me he's made disasterous decisions recently:
1) He can't make his mind up between Furlong and Garder-Hickman, constantly chopping and changing.
2) Hugill should have been banished weeks ago and Cleary promoted in his place (even if he was just utilised off the bench). Why did he persist so long with Hugill?
3) He won't drop Livermore for love nor money, despite him being consistently useless. Molumby is better, fact.
4) I'm convinced Mowatt's drop in performance is down to playing alongside someone so ineffective.
In summary, this complete and utter mess in central midfield will cost us over and over again in forthcoming matches.
If I was him I'd ship out 5 players right now and bring in Yokuslu with the funds.
I'm not, I think Mowatt is bang average to be honest, with or without your favourite player alongside him.
I would agree with you about Yokuslu, but I am not sure he is a Val player - I would love to see him back at our club only for a time when we have a new coach in position [and no I am not VI out, but if we fail in getting to the greed league this year I am sure Lai will make a decision].
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There’s a lot of folks in here who seem to think that Val is going to magically acquire 14 new players and we’ll be great. This will take 5 years at the Albion.
The cold reality is this is the best year to get out of this division as the competition is woeful. Next season will be a lot harder. Again some think Cardiff had a strong defence yesterday. Give over, they are us in three years if Val stays.
We are letting a great opportunity slip through our hands because some people are believing in ‘a project’ this, in football terms is one of the most laughable things you can hear. It’s an excuse when a manager is doing a poor job.
With what he has got we should be doing a hell of a lot better it is that simple. It’s not suddenly going to change because we ‘stuck’ with it.
Nothing will convince me that this man is the right one for the job. He’s the worst we could possibly have at a very important time for the club.
Our current form sees us just outside the bottom 3, we’ve played the dross of the league and shown nothing. Teams like Blackburn, boro etc will turn this lot over with ease by setting up to nullify our one method of play and pressing us into the errors that always come.
I’m stunned people cannot see just how bad things are.
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In the last 12 games we've scored 9 goals, got 4 reds and got 17 points. That's not good at all considering this is the worst championship ever
A common theme with our post match comments is 'we should have beaten them, they were rubbish', but we don't beat them and there is a reason for that, we are not very good either.
We got lucky yesterday with a goal that was blatantly offside. Its pointless going on about the penalty we should have had etc, Cardiff should have been on their way home at half time. Instead, they were in the lead.
So we did not deserve to win at all yesterday, it would have been nice to see the excellent shot by Robinson go in [very good save], but I cannot remember too many other chances where we should have scored.
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I reckon over the last 2 months, this Manager has pretty much lost the plot. The running on the pitch and outburst shows the pressure he's now feeling.
For me he's made disasterous decisions recently:
1) He can't make his mind up between Furlong and Garder-Hickman, constantly chopping and changing.
2) Hugill should have been banished weeks ago and Cleary promoted in his place (even if he was just utilised off the bench). Why did he persist so long with Hugill?
3) He won't drop Livermore for love nor money, despite him being consistently useless. Molumby is better, fact.
4) I'm convinced Mowatt's drop in performance is down to playing alongside someone so ineffective.
In summary, this complete and utter mess in central midfield will cost us over and over again in forthcoming matches.
If I was him I'd ship out 5 players right now and bring in Yokuslu with the funds.
Some interesting observations there
1) As we saw yesterday, TGH is far from the finished article and Furlong’s experience is worth something. We all wanted TGH to get his opportunity but it doesn’t mean that he is fully ready, or that he has yet found his best position.
2) Cleary is just 17 and so far has refused to sign a pro contract. In my view it is quite right not to reward him if he is yet to commit to the club.
3) Agreed
4) Quite possibly, although Mowatt’s drop in form is more likely to be attributed to his foot injury. He has not been the same since.
5) I’m not sure that Yokuslu is actually the right type of player to fit this system, but assuming that he is, how do you suggest that we just “ship out 5 players right now†who are under contract? There have to be buyers/takers for such players and we would be very likely to have to pay them off. The chances of having any cash to spare after doing that is remote. The only players we are likely to be able to sell easily are those who we would want to keep!
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We talk and say Pereira is not aplayer for this system. Yokusli is not a player for this system etc
If they ain't then who the heck is? These 2 players would cream this league.
What kind of niche, barely re-sellable players are we going to end up with at this rate? It will take years to rebalance the squad once more.
For me it's the system that's nonsense.
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We talk and say Pereira is not aplayer for this system. Yokusli is not a player for this system etc
If they ain't then who the heck is? These 2 players would cream this league.
What kind of niche, barely re-sellable players are we going to end up with at this rate? It will take years to rebalance the squad once more.
For me it's the system that's nonsense.
I think Pereira would have thrived as he was an attacking midfielder, not so with Yokulsu who plays in front of our defence. It would be nice to see VI actually use the midfield and not by pass it with aerial bombardments all the time.
I thought Grant took it upon himself to drop back yesterday and supply some quality passes from midfield. Good to see and gets my MOTM vote easily, with the kipper a close second.
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It feels like our CMs do play in front of our defence regardless Skyclad. Why not improve on them if that's the case.
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I think Pereira would have thrived as he was an attacking midfielder, not so with Yokulsu who plays in front of our defence. It would be nice to see VI actually use the midfield and not by pass it with aerial bombardments all the time.
I thought Grant took it upon himself to drop back yesterday and supply some quality passes from midfield. Good to see and gets my MOTM vote easily, with the kipper a close second.
We simply don't use aerial bombardments! We play slow, sideways football with very little end product, due to the central midfield being dysfunctional.
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We simply don't use aerial bombardments! We play slow, sideways football with very little end product, due to the central midfield being dysfunctional.
Well those hapless lobs up front to no one must be my imagination then.......
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Well those hapless lobs up front to no one must be my imagination then.......
Yup, those hapless lobs forward are the bane of my life.
Totally unsuited to the front three we utilise.
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There’s no total football at this level. Every club lumps it forwards at times. We don’t do it exclusively or overly rely on it and certain players (Bartley) are responsible for a high proportion of our ‘hoofs’
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Yup, those hapless lobs forward are the bane of my life.
Totally unsuited to the front three we utilise.
2 Yesterday to Grady being marked by 6ft7 Aden Flint..
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If you mean I'm 100% behind VI, then you'd be wrong, I've said on numerous occasions that I'm uncomfortable with the asthetics of his interpretation of the 3:4:3 formation.
On the the other hand, I believe the 3:4:3 formation is very flexible & does give us competitive advantage, the in game stats tend to suggest that it's working too.
A 3:4:3 formation can become 2:5:3 or 2:3:5 when were attacking & 5:2:3 when we're defending.
Kipre, in particular, joins the mid field to make a 3 man midfield & It's just not true to say all of our crosses are lofted or over hit.
It's also not true to say that lofted balls out of defence are hit in hope.
We're in transition, & although there's still a lot to do, I believe we're moving in the right direction.
Where we are is far more nuanced than being good or bad.
I'd say our formation is much closer to 5-2-3 than 3-4-3 most of the time. I rarely see both fullbacks get forward at the same time.
I don't agree about Kipre. He plays the ball out just as much as the other CH's - it was noticeable in the game yesterday that rather than the defence getting up into midfield we had our midfield dropping into defence to pick the ball up, at one point Grant was having to do it.
If we're in transition we're going the wrong way.
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The last few comments are getting nearer to the nub of our problems which are imo either 1);in this system we need an athletic ball carrying M/F or 2) we need to put a 3rd body in there at the expense probably of one of our supposed forwards who contribute little ( possible exception of Grant) anyway at the moment
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The last few comments are getting nearer to the nub of our problems which are imo either 1);in this system we need an athletic ball carrying M/F or 2) we need to put a 3rd body in there at the expense probably of one of our supposed forwards who contribute little ( possible exception of Grant) anyway at the moment
Agreed but I'd also go with 3) the 3rd body is at the expense of one of the 3 CH's. We just don't need all 3 in some games.
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Agreed but I'd also go with 3) the 3rd body is at the expense of one of the 3 CH's. We just don't need all 3 in some games.
Normally a back three has one or two players that can either carry the ball out of defence, or pick a pass.
Clarke gets forward down the left but his passing was fairly poor yesterday, and Kipre is hit and miss - I'd like to see him carry the ball as it would take a strong tackle to knock him off the ball.
One thing I noted is that Mowatt and Livermore were struggling to get out of cover in the midfield - they were consistently behind the first line of Cardiff's defence, and we struggled to find them. This meant we went back and forth along the back line, before hitting a speculative ball into feet or over the top.
One thing I will say is that we picked up the second ball so many times because we have hit it forward, and yes our strikers have not won it, but Robinson, Grant or someone else has got the second ball.
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Some on here are saying the problem is that Val is playing the wrong system. 4-3-3 has long been my favourite formation, so in one way I'd be happy for Val to give it a try. But you come back to the personell at his disposal.
The midfield in a 4-3-3 is presumably going to be Livermore, Mowatt and Mulumby. Of those, only Mowatt can pick an early through pass and link up with the forwards to create goal chances. Livermore and Mulumby are more 'holding' players. They have a physical presence and can block off the opposition, and for the rest, its mainly sideways passes. So I don't think we would see much improvement over what we're seeing at the minute.
We need another midfielder who makes runs into the box from deep, gives little give and goes, create assists, and scores a few. How many assists do Livermore and Mulumby create? Neither of them are going to get anywhere near 5 goals this season.
Without the right players in midfield, we are just as well trying to improve our deliveries from the wings and maybe hope Dike can convert a few more of them.
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There’s a lot of folks in here who seem to think that Val is going to magically acquire 14 new players and we’ll be great. This will take 5 years at the Albion.
The cold reality is this is the best year to get out of this division as the competition is woeful. Next season will be a lot harder. Again some think Cardiff had a strong defence yesterday. Give over, they are us in three years if Val stays.
We are letting a great opportunity slip through our hands because some people are believing in ‘a project’ this, in football terms is one of the most laughable things you can hear. It’s an excuse when a manager is doing a poor job.
With what he has got we should be doing a hell of a lot better it is that simple. It’s not suddenly going to change because we ‘stuck’ with it.
Nothing will convince me that this man is the right one for the job. He’s the worst we could possibly have at a very important time for the club.
Our current form sees us just outside the bottom 3, we’ve played the dross of the league and shown nothing. Teams like Blackburn, boro etc will turn this lot over with ease by setting up to nullify our one method of play and pressing us into the errors that always come.
I’m stunned people cannot see just how bad things are.
Still banging on with your relegation theme I see. What happens if Dike scores a few and we win back to back games, does that form then make us champions? Given your "stunned people cannot see just how bad things are" let's remind ourselves exactly the position we are in:
-4th in the league with 25 games played
-Best defensive record in the league
-Most shots on goal in the league
-Unbeaten at home
-Club record 10 games unbeaten starting run
We you around by any chance in January 2000 when we drew 0-0 at home to Port Vale with an attendance of 10,831? I was - bitterly cold and depressing game. Chambers twins were our own bright point. If travelled back in time 22 years and posted what your posting today back then you would make more sense. The lack of context and mass hysteria you are engaging in suggests you are quite young, that's my presumption anyway.
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Yup, those hapless lobs forward are the bane of my life.
Totally unsuited to the front three we utilise.
That's why we miss the skill, craft and quality of Pereira to play those perfectly weighted balls through to Robinson & Grant along with his ability to score himself from the edge of the box. The decision to sell him on the cheap moved us down from a challenge for the top two to a challenge in the play offs. 3rd to 6th in the league is about right. Hoping Dike can give us some of what we are lacking but we are still stuck with Livermore punting it around everywhere.
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Still banging on with your relegation theme I see. What happens if Dike scores a few and we win back to back games, does that form then make us champions? Given your "stunned people cannot see just how bad things are" let's remind ourselves exactly the position we are in:
-4th in the league with 25 games played
-Best defensive record in the league
-Most shots on goal in the league
-Unbeaten at home
-Club record 10 games unbeaten starting run
We you around by any chance in January 2000 when we drew 0-0 at home to Port Vale with an attendance of 10,831? I was - bitterly cold and depressing game. Chambers twins were our own bright point. If travelled back in time 22 years and posted what your posting today back then you would make more sense. The lack of context and mass hysteria you are engaging in suggests you are quite young, that's my presumption anyway.
Still burying your head in the sand I see?
The things you list are utterly laughable.
4th now. Bottom 5 on last 10 games form. Still happy?
We have the best defence as we play an awfully negative formation. Also the league is woeful.
Most shots with utterly no chance of a goal. Another laughable stat.
We have played maybe 2 good games at home and the rest have been awful 1-0 lucky wins or draws.the home crowds tell you how bad the football is.
A club record unbeaten run 15 games ago is great. In the last 15 we’ve looked dreadful with hardly anything good about the way we’ve played.
You do make me laugh with your assumptions, I was around well before the god awful chambers twins. I remember Harford shafting is like it was yesterday as well.
You carry on clutching to those straws and ignoring the current state of play.
I want Dike to do well and would love to see us win but I won’t change my opinion of Val, he’s a one tricky pony that thinks he’s better than everyone else.
The longer he is at Albion the more damage he will do.
The only assumption I’ll make about you is you don’t have a clue about management.
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Still banging on with your relegation theme I see. What happens if Dike scores a few and we win back to back games, does that form then make us champions? Given your "stunned people cannot see just how bad things are" let's remind ourselves exactly the position we are in:
-4th in the league with 25 games played
-Best defensive record in the league
-Most shots on goal in the league
-Unbeaten at home
-Club record 10 games unbeaten starting run
We you around by any chance in January 2000 when we drew 0-0 at home to Port Vale with an attendance of 10,831? I was - bitterly cold and depressing game. Chambers twins were our own bright point. If travelled back in time 22 years and posted what your posting today back then you would make more sense. The lack of context and mass hysteria you are engaging in suggests you are quite young, that's my presumption anyway.
Listen, I get the facts that you have listed and have no trouble at all with fans wanting to be positive, but standing in a small dog poo is only marginally better than standing in a big dog poo?
The facts are that the manager has (usually after being forced) plated certain layers that have performed well….only to then take them straight out ……Livermore is a slow sitting duck and the forwards have absolutely no opportunity to create partnerships because the font line is continually fiddled with….
We might be 4th….but we really should be doing better, and that’s not me being over confident or rude to the other teams…..we have been absolutely rank against teams like derby ….XG’s or whatever
And then there are people saying he needs time to build “his team†well he brought in mulumby ….clearly more energy than livermore…..and doesn’t utilise him .
I just don’t think the boss is good enough.
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Still burying your head in the sand I see?
The things you list are utterly laughable.
4th now. Bottom 5 on last 10 games form. Still happy?
We have the best defence as we play an awfully negative formation. Also the league is woeful.
Most shots with utterly no chance of a goal. Another laughable stat.
We have played maybe 2 good games at home and the rest have been awful 1-0 lucky wins or draws.the home crowds tell you how bad the football is.
A club record unbeaten run 15 games ago is great. In the last 15 we’ve looked dreadful with hardly anything good about the way we’ve played.
You do make me laugh with your assumptions, I was around well before the god awful chambers twins. I remember Harford shafting is like it was yesterday as well.
You carry on clutching to those straws and ignoring the current state of play.
I want Dike to do well and would love to see us win but I won’t change my opinion of Val, he’s a one tricky pony that thinks he’s better than everyone else.
The longer he is at Albion the more damage he will do.
The only assumption I’ll make about you is you don’t have a clue about management.
The big about management that you seem to be overlooking is that the league is decided over 46 games, not 10 or 15.
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The big about management that you seem to be overlooking is that the league is decided over 46 games, not 10 or 15.
Agreed. So you think we’ll be in the mix with Val in charge?
We’ll be around 12th is my bet come the last game of the season.
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Agreed. So you think we’ll be in the mix with Val in charge?
We’ll be around 12th is my bet come the last game of the season.
Start a post with predictions of the final position as bad as we have been these last ten games I think we will be top six.
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Start a post with predictions of the final position as bad as we have been these last ten games I think we will be top six.
I still think we’ll finish top 6 comfortably. This league is so poor that I think most of our fans could lead us to a top 6 finish.
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I still think we’ll finish top 6 comfortably. This league is so poor that I think most of our fans could lead us to a top 6 finish.
I agree, says a lot for the guy in charge.
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I still think we’ll finish top 6 comfortably. This league is so poor that I think most of our fans could lead us to a top 6 finish.
I think we will go up via the playoffs.
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I agree, says a lot for the guy in charge.
Took the words…
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Agreed. So you think we’ll be in the mix with Val in charge?
We’ll be around 12th is my bet come the last game of the season.
Between 4th and 6th.
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Top half of the table for me but not in the play offs.
QPR away next which will be tough a couple of easy games at home against Peterboro and Preston where no less than 6 points will be acceptable because after that we have a tough run of 6 games , Millwall away, Bournemouth home, Sheff Utd away, Blackburn home, Luton away and Middlesboro away.
We are now in a dogfight for the play off places so any loss will see us drop places and any win will see us climb or in some cases just stay in the same position. The next 9 games has got to generate at least 15 points as a minimum. With current form and the fixtures I just can't see it happening.
It's alright being optimistic but I can't see us getting much out of the next 9 games and if that is the case the play offs will be gone.
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Agreed. So you think we’ll be in the mix with Val in charge?
We’ll be around 12th is my bet come the last game of the season.
If we finish around 12th they will see the meltdown on social media in outer space !
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If we finish 12th VI will certainly have no support left.
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Play offs for me, assuming Dike hits the ground running.
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A lot of posters are dismissing the standard of opposition in the championship as poor but I disagree. Take Stoke's midfield since we discuss our midfield so often. It has Vrancic, Joe Allen and Nick Powell. I'd take any of those three into our midfield - a fit Mowatt being the exception.
So given that we came down from the EPL in such disarray and lost Maitland-Niles, Gallagher and Yokuslu, I think it will be an achievement to end up in the top 6.
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Play offs should be a given, given our squad and budget and I have always maintained that we were nailed on. For the first time this season, however, my faith is starting to wobble. It's ok to have a blip, but, when it goes on this long without anything really changing, it's hard to be optimistic.
That being said, I don't think many teams outside the top 2 will be bringing in £8m strikers this January, so everything crossed that Dike is the missing link. With such a robust defence, if we can just start scoring more, then we could string a run together, but, until we see him in action, it is hard to be convinced.
We will be without Mowatt for 3 games, which means we are stuck with Livermore, but will at least get to see Mulumby or TGH get a run
I think it's fair to say, however, that in terms of approach, formation and tactics, everything else will be "as you were" so it's a lot of weight on young shoulders.
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A lot of posters are dismissing the standard of opposition in the championship as poor but I disagree. Take Stoke's midfield since we discuss our midfield so often. It has Vrancic, Joe Allen and Nick Powell. I'd take any of those three into our midfield - a fit Mowatt being the exception.
So given that we came down from the EPL in such disarray and lost Maitland-Niles, Gallagher and Yokuslu, I think it will be an achievement to end up in the top 6.
Stoke have a very decent squad. One member of that very decent squad did a hatchet job on Mowatt when we played them. I'm not convinced he's fully recovered. From memory Joe Allen wasn't sent off. Mowatt was on Saturday and the Derby player sprang straight back to his feet. Donism time, fine margins.
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Play offs at best.
We need Dike to be an instant success and confidence will flow throug the side.
If we keep stuttering we will drop out of the play offs.
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Does no one see the disconnect between saying we've got the 3rd or 4th best team in the division and then bashing Ismael for not having us in the automatic promotion picture at present?
We're about where we should be. Currently a side in poor form, but the club have backed their man and for the first time in a long time we've taken decisive action to try and rectify our issues in front of goal.
Solid at the back, we create enough chances, lets see how Dike goes. I'll be amazed if we finish outside the Play Offs.
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Does no one see the disconnect between saying we've got the 3rd or 4th best team in the division and then bashing Ismael for not having us in the automatic promotion picture at present?
We're about where we should be. Currently a side in poor form, but the club have backed their man and for the first time in a long time we've taken decisive action to try and rectify our issues in front of goal.
Solid at the back, we create enough chances, lets see how Dike goes. I'll be amazed if we finish outside the Play Offs.
I think it's more the fact people can see us slowly but surely fading out altogether. Our long term form is not that of promotion. It's 'just above relegation' form which when compared to the standard of opposition is ludicrous.
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we really need some perspective in relation to Dike, he is young and relatively untested against teams setting up purely to defend, he is going to considerable rough treatment from some agricultural defenders IMO. He has cost less than numerous other flops we have signed (Ideye Brown for example) so lets not get ahead of ourselves in our expectations. We will need back up for the lad, maybe its Hugill, I do hope not.
I'm not exactly enamoured with the additional pressure VI is placing on the kids shoulders either
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I think it's more the fact people can see us slowly but surely fading out altogether. Our long term form is not that of promotion. It's above relegation which when compared to the standard of opposition is ludicrous.
We're petering out because the goals have completely dried up, everyone is frustrated by it. The decision to bring Dike in so early in January shows the club are backing their man. If he hits the ground running I would expect results to improve hugely. Goals have dried up further as we've tried to adapt the way we play to get on the ball more, I don't think we have the personnel to play this way regularly against the stronger sides in this league.
Under Big Dave we fell to pieces with a team full of attackers as we couldn't defend, likewise under Bilic toward the end of the last promotion season. With the addition of a proven goalscorer to a really solid base, hopefully we can start turning draws into wins. There is plenty to be optimistic about here, and there is a long way to go.
Only a few weeks back both Fulham and Bournemouth went on runs without winning many. Blackburn are above us as they've been on their best run for years, they will fade. If we can add goals to our really solid base then we will be a hard team to beat. A lot of the 0-0s and narrow defeats would have been different had we someone capable of taking the early chances we created.
Thus far I've been impressed with Val's transfers, Mowatt, Clarke, Molumby are solid additions at the right stage in their careers. I'd be happy to see him given a second summer (providing there is no disaster second half of the season) to bring in a midfielder with the ability to put their foot on the ball and some better wing backs.
As I say, I'll be amazed if we're not in the Play Offs come the end of the season. If we're not, he deserves to go.
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I'm not exactly enamoured with the additional pressure VI is placing on the kids shoulders either
How many threads on here bemoaning the lack of opportunity for our youngsters? Constructive criticism of Val, fine but that's absurd. One of the big positives is the pathway he's given for the best youngsters coming into the first team.
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How many threads on here bemoaning the lack of opportunity for our youngsters? Constructive criticism of Val, fine but that's absurd. One of the big positives is the pathway he's given for the best youngsters coming into the first team.
back up, opportunity being given = fantastic, saying he has to hit the ground running - unfair and bad management IMO.
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I think it's more the fact people can see us slowly but surely fading out altogether. Our long term form is not that of promotion. It's 'just above relegation' form which when compared to the standard of opposition is ludicrous.
Exactly. It's not fickle to be concerned with a drop in form and performance levels, it's simple observation.
If Val can arrest the slide, either by integrating Dike, or whatever other methods, the concern will dissipate. If we start scoring goals and winning games, the tide will pretty much swing completely.
That is what frustrates me on forums, fans get a lot of stick, from other fans, for venting frustrations, but, at the end of the day, we have very little influence. If Val wants the fans back on side, start winning games again.
I've never claimed to be an expert on all things football, but, after 40+ years watching Albion, I'm no mug either, and I can trust my own eyes, and what they are telling me is that I should be concerned with what I am seeing.
I may not, necessarily, have the answers, but that doesn't mean I can't see the problem.
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DaveWBA - The goals/lack of striker thing i did have sympathy with VI for but that's about it really. We now have Dike who should address that somewhat but there are still many areas to improve on and it's his lack of flexibility which is the most worrying.
I think we are too negative and that's down to his system whcih we know he won't change.
I think we will just about hold onto a play off place but that's not because VI is any good, just the league is rubbish apart from us Fulham and Bournemouth. QPR and Blackburn are solid Champo sides nothing more.
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back up, opportunity being given = fantastic, saying he has to hit the ground running - unfair and bad management IMO.
We're talking about Daryl Dike international footballer with a 1 in 2 record in the Championship here with a £7m price tag on his head? He's not been plucked at random off Dartmouth Park has he?
Exactly. It's not fickle to be concerned with a drop in form and performance levels, it's simple observation.
If Val can arrest the slide, either by integrating Dike, or whatever other methods, the concern will dissipate. If we start scoring goals and winning games, the tide will pretty much swing completely.
That is what frustrates me on forums, fans get a lot of stick, from other fans, for venting frustrations, but, at the end of the day, we have very little influence. If Val wants the fans back on side, start winning games again.
I've never claimed to be an expert on all things football, but, after 40+ years watching Albion, I'm no mug either, and I can trust my own eyes, and what they are telling me is that I should be concerned with what I am seeing.
I may not, necessarily, have the answers, but that doesn't mean I can't see the problem.
These are good points. I am worried by the lack of goals but I also undestand Val is hampered by our lack of a goalscoring option, we should be thankful he's not as useless as organising a team as our previous Championship managers were, otherwise we would be in real trouble.
Slating him as "useless", "the worst we've ever had" as I've seen and heard before he's had chance to solve the problem is an overreaction and deserves to be called out. If Dike doesn't score the goals after Val has made him target number one and we finish the season outside the Play Offs then I too will be joining the calls for his head.
DaveWBA - The goals/lack of striker thing i did have sympathy with VI for but that's about it really. We now have Dike who should address that somewhat but there are still many areas to improve on and it's his lack of flexibility which is the most worrying.
I think we are too negative and that's down to his system whcih we know he won't change.
I think we will just about hold onto a play off place but that's not because VI is any good, just the league is rubbish apart from us Fulham and Bournemouth. QPR and Blackburn are solid Champo sides nothing more.
Whether we're too negative is completely subjective. The facts are we're the best organised, defensively solid team in the division. If we can add goals we will be very hard to beat. Every time we're in the Championship we say it's the worst ever.
Ideally to really implement Val's style of play we need a better midfield option to play alongside Mowatt and better options at wing back. His signings thus far have been good, I'd be willing to give him time. There is plenty of football to be played and as we've seen many times, a couple of wins in this league and momentum builds quickly.
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Whether we're too negative is completely subjective. The facts are we're the best organised, defensively solid team in the division. If we can add goals we will be very hard to beat. Every time we're in the Championship we say it's the worst ever.
Ideally to really implement Val's style of play we need a better midfield option to play alongside Mowatt and better options at wing back. His signings thus far have been good, I'd be willing to give him time. There is plenty of football to be played and as we've seen many times, a couple of wins in this league and momentum builds quickly.
With the amount of defensive players we have the pitch being the most definisvely organised and solid is the bare minimum we should expect. I've never said the Chmpo is the worst ever until this season. It's normally a tough league, very tough, this season though it's abysmal.
Val doesnt seem to want a midfield player alongside Mowatt other than JL though. He chooses them regardless of form everytime which is dumb. No point getting a CM to sit on the bench like Moloumby.
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With the amount of defensive players we have the pitch being the most definisvely organised and solid is the bare minimum we should expect. I've never said the Chmpo is the worst ever until this season. It's normally a tough league, very tough, this season though it's abysmal.
Val doesnt seem to want a midfield player alongside Mowatt other than JL though. He chooses them regardless of form everytime which is dumb. No point getting a CM to sit on the bench like Moloumby.
We have three defensive players on the pitch. When we have the ball we effectively play a 3-2-5. Better players in the system will yield better results, hopefully Dike is the start of this.
His reluctance to drop Livermore and to a lesser extent Furlong is the biggest black mark against his thus far.
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We have three defensive players on the pitch. When we have the ball we effectively play a 3-2-5. Better players in the system will yield better results, hopefully Dike is the start of this.
His reluctance to drop Livermore and to a lesser extent Furlong is the biggest black mark against his thus far.
It doesn't feel that way. It feels to me the CM is too deep. The wing backs get forward in all fairness but theres little in the box or getting to the edge of the box, certainly feels like that anyway.
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It doesn't feel that way. It feels to me the CM is too deep. The wing backs get forward in all fairness but theres little in the box or getting to the edge of the box, certainly feels like that anyway.
The wing backs get well forward, at times they could be criticised for being slightly too deep when we build up. Our crossing in general seems poor, hopefully the additional of a focal point in Dike will improve that. We tend to have three forwards in the penalty area, problem is none of them are strikers. Again with the additional of Dike to the penalty area I would expect the likes of Grant and Robinson to pick the ball up on the edge of the penalty area more often.
I can't see Val ever committing another midfielder in attack as they're positioned to prevent the out ball down the side of our centre halves as is common with most three at the back formations.
The point we can all agree on is that we don't score enough and for the first time in a long while we've acted fast to try and change things. Let's see how it plays out.
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We have three defensive players on the pitch. When we have the ball we effectively play a 3-2-5. Better players in the system will yield better results, hopefully Dike is the start of this.
His reluctance to drop Livermore and to a lesser extent Furlong is the biggest black mark against his thus far.
3 CH's.
2 Wingbacks, we rarely get them both forward.
2 Sitting Midfielders
It would be interesting to see their average field positions.
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3 CH's.
2 Wingbacks, we rarely get them both forward.
2 Sitting Midfielders
It would be interesting to see their average field positions.
It feels like we have 5 back to me, 3 cbs, 2 cms and the wing backs are 50/50.
Having Dike will help to an extent but will it cure all the issues? For me, not a chance.
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I don't see Mowatt and Livermore sitting deep in front of the back three in open play for most games. Funnily enough I also noticed Jake was quite high up the pitch in open play at times when he played at RCH v Reading. Must be looking at life through Jake tinted glasses or something ;D .
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As I alluded to earlier, we are 4th which is okay, not brilliant and not disastrous, about par for our team with the lack of goals in it. Dike will help. Does that mean we can catch the top two, very unlikely. But we should be in the play offs which we have a decent chance of winning.
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I don't see Mowatt and Livermore sitting deep in front of the back three in open play for most games. Funnily enough I also noticed Jake was quite high up the pitch in open play at times when he played at RCH v Reading. Must be looking at life through Jake tinted glasses or something ;D .
Jake has been getting more advanced but that is part of the issue, he doesn't suit it as his passing isn't good enough and his goals and assists are as rare as hen's teeth. That's why we need an upgrade but, for some reason, the player who least suits the system is somehow the first name on the team sheet.
I do also think, however, that since the injury Mowatt has been hiding a bit, which has exposed them both. To give him credit, Jake is the one trying to drive things but, if it's not his game by now, it's never going to be.
Bring in a young, energetic, talented CM, along with Dike and it could be the key to everything.
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Don't get me wrong. Eventhough I rate some of our players higher than others do (and others less so) I'd be delighted with an upgrade on any of our playing staff. Getting their wages off the books is the problem as much as anything though.
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Jake has been getting more advanced but that is part of the issue, he doesn't suit it as his passing isn't good enough and his goals and assists are as rare as hen's teeth. That's why we need an upgrade but, for some reason, the player who least suits the system is somehow the first name on the team sheet.
I do also think, however, that since the injury Mowatt has been hiding a bit, which has exposed them both. To give him credit, Jake is the one trying to drive things but, if it's not his game by now, it's never going to be.
Bring in a young, energetic, talented CM, along with Dike and it could be the key to everything.
IMO, that's the reason he keeps getting picked, VI sees the drive & thrust element as higher value than skill, hence the "right player" comments.
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IMO, that's the reason he keeps getting picked, VI sees the drive & thrust element as higher value than skill, hence the "right player" comments.
That may well be true, I still disagree with it.
We need someone who can unlock a defence and chip in with goals and assists and that's not Livermore, therefore Val is getting it wrong. IMO.
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That may well be true, I still disagree with it.
We need someone who can unlock a defence and chip in with goals and assists and that's not Livermore, therefore Val is getting it wrong. IMO.
Not that I don't think there's better options than Livermore - but Val's system doesn't really let the CM's get forward that much. They're there to win the second ball and recycle it out wide. Tactically I'd love it if we encouraged playing through the middle more often.
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Not that I don't think there's better options than Livermore - but Val's system doesn't really let the CM's get forward that much. They're there to win the second ball and recycle it out wide. Tactically I'd love it if we encouraged playing through the middle more often.
That's the point though mate, Jake is getting forward, whether by design or not, and it doesn't suit him. When Mowatt does it, he can bag a goal or an assist but it just doesn't happen with Jake.
Maybe Mulumby can make a name for himself in the next 3.
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That's the point though mate, Jake is getting forward, whether by design or not, and it doesn't suit him. When Mowatt does it, he can bag a goal or an assist but it just doesn't happen with Jake.
Maybe Mulumby can make a name for himself in the next 3.
Could we not tell JL to sit and give Mowatt licence to roam? Would it not be better to sign a full on DCM like Yokuslu and pair him with Mowatt? I dunno anymore ;D
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Could we not tell JL to sit and give Mowatt licence to roam? Would it not be better to sign a full on DCM like Yokuslu and pair him with Mowatt? I dunno anymore ;D
I would have that all day but, then again, I would have Mulumby or TGH ahead of Livermore.
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For me one of our best midfield performances of the season was at Coventry with Mowatt and TGH.
TGH is one of the best footballers at the club, for me he's wasted at wing back. I'd have him in the middle with Mowatt post-suspensions.
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I would have that all day but, then again, I would have Mulumby or TGH ahead of Livermore.
Same, JL would still have a place here as well, with Snodgrass likely to go we could get Okay in on loan who randomly wants to come and play here.
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For me one of our best midfield performances of the season was at Coventry with Mowatt and TGH.
TGH is one of the best footballers at the club, for me he's wasted at wing back. I'd have him in the middle with Mowatt post-suspensions.
This 👆 in full agreement 👍
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Me too. Liked the balance between the two, and the mobility of extra pace and 'legs' made a difference.
Mowatt and TGH in the middle, and maybe if not Furlong then Matty Phillips at left wing back.
JL still in the picture as a sub if we are under late pressure defending a lead.
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Stoke have a very decent squad. One member of that very decent squad did a hatchet job on Mowatt when we played them. I'm not convinced he's fully recovered. From memory Joe Allen wasn't sent off. Mowatt was on Saturday and the Derby player sprang straight back to his feet. Donism time, fine margins.
Joe Allen gets away with a lot because he's short and sly. Let's hope that we can reciprocate in some manner in the return match.
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Don't get me wrong. Eventhough I rate some of our players higher than others do (and others less so) I'd be delighted with an upgrade on any of our playing staff. Getting their wages off the books is the problem as much as anything though.
Things will never change until we stop handing out new contracts to has-beens. Phillips being a prime example this summer.
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Things will never change until we stop handing out new contracts to has-beens. Phillips being a prime example this summer.
In agreement. For what it's worth I don't think Jake will be with us next season. The length of contracts offered to both Phillips and Furlong were a surprise.
To be honest I'd have only offered Townsend a two year contract. Twelve months in our favour on top. It's easy this contract offering and player accepting lark........
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In agreement. For what it's worth I don't think Jake will be with us next season. The length of contracts offered to both Phillips and Furlong were a surprise.
To be honest I'd have only offered Townsend a two year contract. Twelve months in our favour on top. It's easy this contract offering and player accepting lark........
Players in Townsend’s position are in a strong bargaining position, wanting the security of a longer contract and otherwise being happy to run their contract down and pick up a big signing-on fee as a Bosman. Older players don’t have that same bargaining power and we’ve been far too generous with handing out long contracts to players north of 30. Hopefully a lesson learned.
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In agreement. For what it's worth I don't think Jake will be with us next season. The length of contracts offered to both Phillips and Furlong were a surprise.
To be honest I'd have only offered Townsend a two year contract. Twelve months in our favour on top. It's easy this contract offering and player accepting lark........
I hope you are right regarding Livermore but I suspect he’ll be kept on assuming Val is still here.
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Watched the Cardiff game online. Looked exactly like the last ten or so games except some of our more reliable players are losing confidence. The incident at the end of the game was pretty diabolical, but so was the lack of an offside call for our goal. I think there are growing frustrations within the club that the team is failing to meet expectations. I am not a fan of VI, I find the football tedious and the lack of improvement in our players is telling. I doubt he will be shown the door until the summer and he has four months to prove doubters like me wrong. if, as I suspect, we are still in the championship next year he will be gone. He has been out coached by four of the bottom five sides and there is little reason to believe that he will change things around from here on in. Dike (who i have seen here in the US) is going to have to put this team on his back and carry them to the finish.
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when he ran on the pitch he showed that he cared and don't forget we are only fans but it is his job.
The two points at stake could be the difference between automatic and the play offs or the play offs and nothing and could cost him his job.
This weekend mild mannered Tony Mowbray picked up a yellow card.
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He will be banned whilst Klopp got in the ref's face a few weeks back and will of course get away without even a warning.
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when he ran on the pitch he showed that he cared and don't forget we are only fans but it is his job.
The two points at stake could be the difference between automatic and the play offs or the play offs and nothing and could cost him his job.
This weekend mild mannered Tony Mowbray picked up a yellow card.
It doesn't help his cause by instigating the melee that resulted in his goal keeper being suspended for 3 matches.
I Like VI who at least has a vision from which he will not be deflected, but we have the worst disciplinary record in the Championship and leadership starts at the top.
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He didn't instigate anything. He stomped onto the pitch and stomped off again without even doing anything. The players from both sides flew into each other of their own accord.
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I put forward the theory that had the referee been anywhere near approaching competent. Had he been a little closer to interpreting the rules in a more even handed manner throughout the game, or had he correctly given a penalty for what was one of the most blatant fouls committed in the game, instead of trying to manipulate the result to make up for the possible error of allowing the equalising goal, there would have been no after match issues.
VI simply stomped onto the field of play in frustration, but turned around walked back before any possible confrontation could occur, merely a physical outlet for the build up of emotions that will occur and build up during such a poorly run game. And perhaps over the previous two games where far worse tackles than that committed by Mowat, were not deemed to be worthy of red cards by either ref. The only consistency is that the wrong decisions have rarely in our favour.
This is pure conjecture, but SJ's reactions were so far out of character, something pretty heavy must have gone down, possibly not directly to do with the game itself.
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He didn't instigate anything. He stomped onto the pitch and stomped off again without even doing anything. The players from both sides flew into each other of their own accord.
Glad I'm not the only one thinking this. Ismael was off the pitch by the time the melee started.
If anything, it was our bald headed assistant who argued with the Cardiff player, and then Adam Reach got involved and that's when Johnstone and Flint piled in.
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He didn't instigate anything. He stomped onto the pitch and stomped off again without even doing anything. The players from both sides flew into each other of their own accord.
Completely agree with you there Dan. Sadly the media outlets (official and non official/clickbait) all want to paint Ismael as the instigator. Hopefully the EFL will take a more even handed view but I won't hold my breath.
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The video in the link below, from about 2 mins 6 secs shows VI entering the field of play and is halted by a Cardiff player from going any further. He is nowhere near nor is he in any shots of the players fracas at the end of the game.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6lMScSlO_Nw
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Certainly one of the instigators was one of the Cardiff players that had been subbed . Not sure but it looks like he chucked a drinks bottle at somebody . Couldn’t tell who it was but best guess it was the bloke that was supposedly nearly maimed by Mowatt !
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The video in the link below, from about 2 mins 6 secs shows VI entering the field of play and is halted by a Cardiff player from going any further. He is nowhere near nor is he in any shots of the players fracas at the end of the game.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6lMScSlO_Nw
Didn't see this on the day as stream dropped out. Forgot how much I love to see a bit of handbags, football is much too sanitised. Unprofessional blah blah want to see some emotion. Val did a good Frankenstein stomp bit didn't get very far did he? I've seen numerous PL managers do much much worse.
The sending offs are pathetic, just flashed as a way to try and regain control by a ref that blatantly had none. Suitable end to a very poor slice of champ football, let's hope the arrival of Dike can spark things again. Watching Lukaku last night showed what a difference a big man up top makes, he didn't have a fantastic game by his own standards but still bullied the defenders at times.
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https://twitter.com/xG_data/status/1478807172226207752?t=ydzCdgcUxerl-8qZHQKrjQ&s=19
Proof we've been doing alright and not taking our chances. Be really interesting to see how we go with Dike in the team.
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Things will never change until we stop handing out new contracts to has-beens. Phillips being a prime example this summer.
This, this and this again. For 10 games a season Phillips is unplayable, but the other 30 is innefective or injured. This has been the case for at least the three years. Incredibly lazy to give him an extension, a sign that our recruitment team had no viable alternatives lined up. Hoping for better in the summer with Val having more influence? I know that thought horrified some but it needs to be in for a penny.......
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Valerien Ismael wants his West Brom squad to belong
An insightful article by Joseph Mati on Val's plan for the future
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/06/valerien-ismael-wants-his-west-brom-squad-to-belong/
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Valerien Ismael wants his West Brom squad to belong
An insightful article by Joseph Mati on Val's plan for the future
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/06/valerien-ismael-wants-his-west-brom-squad-to-belong/
Thanks for posting that AlbionFan.
Interesting to read his opinion on transfers and his remit about building something for the future and the pathway to first team football from the PL2 side.
For me the pathway should be to integrate 2 or 3 players a season into the first team from PL2 (replacing them in the PL2 side with U18 players) while moving on older players as their contracts come to an end.
This season we have TGH and, lately, Tom Fellows getting game time in the first team.
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Valerien Ismael wants his West Brom squad to belong
An insightful article by Joseph Mati on Val's plan for the future
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/06/valerien-ismael-wants-his-west-brom-squad-to-belong/
He's not everyone's cup of earl grey, but it's this kind of presser that i like.
“We need to do the same with transfers. In the past, the club made a lot of transfers, last-minute transfers – it was a case of who was available on the market and we just picked the player without any ID. We need to stop this"
Sounds like some of our summer transfers to me. Nice to see the bleeding obvious stated by someone within the club. It might not work, but the strategy is admirable, if not essential, for a self financing club in the modern era.
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He's not everyone's cup of earl grey, but it's this kind of presser that i like.
“We need to do the same with transfers. In the past, the club made a lot of transfers, last-minute transfers – it was a case of who was available on the market and we just picked the player without any ID. We need to stop this"
Sounds like some of our summer transfers to me. Nice to see the bleeding obvious stated by someone within the club. It might not work, but the strategy is admirable, if not essential, for a self financing club in the modern era.
Bar perhaps some of the Pereira stuff, which I can understand but I get why others can't, he always speaks well in my opinion. He's got a lot about him, and that is in part why I support him. He does need stuff to start coming together on the pitch though and I think he's got a lot riding on the success of Dike.
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He's not everyone's cup of earl grey, but it's this kind of presser that i like.
“We need to do the same with transfers. In the past, the club made a lot of transfers, last-minute transfers – it was a case of who was available on the market and we just picked the player without any ID. We need to stop this"
Sounds like some of our summer transfers to me. Nice to see the bleeding obvious stated by someone within the club. It might not work, but the strategy is admirable, if not essential, for a self financing club in the modern era.
I had the same thoughts and I hope and pray that this is a reference to Hugill and the fact that the club made a "better than nothing" call even though Val wasn't fully convinced.
His play is so one-dimensional, if they are going to back him then they almost have to give him autonomy, or bring in a specialist who can properly recruit to his blueprint.
Either is a risk, long term, as we could end up with a very one-dimensional squad but if they are backing him they have to go all in.
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I don't think his play in one-dimensional. He's tried over the top football and tried to work it though the midfield. In both cases the players have not got results. The balls over the top and crosses don't work because we didn't have an out and out striker. The balls through midfield don't quite work because they are moved too slowly against oppositions that play out and out, park the bus defence and that hope for a mistake from out defence (which unfortunately they are often given).
With Diangana's drop in form we don't seem to have a winger that can get to the by-line and turn the opposition defence so that they're facing their own goal - much more difficult to block shots as you may give away an own goal.
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The majority of our opponents have 'Parked the bus' and we've not been able to break them down or we've missed easy opportunities. Stating the obvious but if we can get in front early then the opposition have to come out which should make it easier to close out the games. As many have said there is a lot of pressure on Dike but I think his movement and strength this will benefit us alone even without goals.
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I had the same thoughts and I hope and pray that this is a reference to Hugill and the fact that the club made a "better than nothing" call even though Val wasn't fully convinced.
His play is so one-dimensional, if they are going to back him then they almost have to give him autonomy, or bring in a specialist who can properly recruit to his blueprint.
Either is a risk, long term, as we could end up with a very one-dimensional squad but if they are backing him they have to go all in.
IMO, Hugill was always a low risk, short term (do for now while we negotiate for Dike) deal, endorsed by VI.
If Hugill fails, we've still got time to recover, if he succeeds it's a bonus.
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Valerien Ismael wants his West Brom squad to belong
An insightful article by Joseph Mati on Val's plan for the future
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/06/valerien-ismael-wants-his-west-brom-squad-to-belong/
A very interesting article and it is clear that VI is no mug. It is also clear, and this will disappoint some, that he is not about to be dismissed from his job anytime soon.
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IMO, Hugill was always a low risk, short term (do for now while we negotiate for Dike) deal, endorsed by VI.
If Hugill fails, we've still got time to recover, if he succeeds it's a bonus.
I'd have much rather we'd have taken a punt on a lower league or foreign striker than some useless lump with a poor goalscoring record. It may be short term but still lazy on our part.
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he may be able to talk the talk, but the other bit remains to be seen, its fortunate that he got off to a real flyer as he would be in trouble now without that run at start of the season.
Test of a manager is turning around a bad run, fingers crossed he passes the test with flying colours
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I'd have much rather we'd have taken a punt on a lower league or foreign striker than some useless lump with a poor goalscoring record. It may be short term but still lazy on our part.
Exactly this, it was more lazy scouting, picking up a bloke who had been on the loan circuit for the last few years.
While I get the attraction for Hugill in that he has previously had a middling championship record and fits the mould of striker Val wanted, we would probably have been better off using our imagination and finding somebody from abroad or the lower leagues.
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Exactly this, it was more lazy scouting, picking up a bloke who had been on the loan circuit for the last few years.
While I get the attraction for Hugill in that he has previously had a middling championship record and fits the mould of striker Val wanted, we would probably have been better off using our imagination and finding somebody from abroad or the lower leagues.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing
Don't think it was hindsight at all - look at his record and look at the comments when he signed.
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He didn't instigate anything. He stomped onto the pitch and stomped off again without even doing anything. The players from both sides flew into each other of their own accord.
Cardiff players were clearly holding him back which is when our lot decided they wanted to be involved too.
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing
In hindsight, we probably wouldn't have done it, but it was a low risk, low cost option at the time.
As our only striker, Hugill's not an option I'd be impressed with at this stage in the season, but I'm relaxed if he wants to stay as an alternative until the summer.
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In hindsight, we probably wouldn't have done it, but it was a low risk, low cost option at the time.
As our only striker, Hugill's not an option I'd be impressed with at this stage in the season, but I'm relaxed if he wants to stay as an alternative until the summer.
It would be interesting to know what the loan fee and wages we are paying are. I suspect that they are not low cost.
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we would probably have been better off using our imagination and finding somebody from abroad or the lower leagues.
I'd normally agree with this Baggies. However, there wasnt an obvious lower league striker last summer, unlike Toney the year before. Nobody stands out has having stepped up from that Division that we missed out on and none of the league one top scorers look like they were left behind by bigger teams. So that leaves taking a chance on an unknown from abroad with the budget we had.
However it looks like Dike was the one we wanted all along. When you read VI's interview from today about making sure we have a plan, doing something when it works for us and taking our time rather than making Knee jerk signings then it seems Hugill was probably part of a longer game and I think come the end of the season we may have to judge the Hugill signing on the success of Dike.
Had we spend a few million abroad maybe we wouldnt have had the budget for Dike. It may have cost us points in the short term and there is likely other run of the mill loans that would have worked better but that certainly is hindsight.
I might be giving the club / VI too much credit, but if Hugill was a stop gap to bring in Dike in the longer term and I dont think its an unfair assumption, then should the Dike signing come off I think we have to be more accepting, certainly of the reasoning, of bringing Hugill in.
If Dike fails, or we have given ourselves too much to do, then that is going to condemn the decision to sit on budget and wait further rather than go elsewhere, but we arent a club that can just write off big signings and go and spend again.
If VI was brave enough to wait, in the cut-throat job of his for the good of the long term, that is something we havent seen from a manager for a while but I think something most would welcome.
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It would be interesting to know what the loan fee and wages we are paying are. I suspect that they are not low cost.
Hugill has a market value (transfermarket) of around £1.6 million, he has no track record of success in the EPL, although he did OK at QPR & Preston.
Based on the above, I would be surprised if he has cost WBAFC more than £1 million in total
As a benchmark, Grant & Diangana together have cost us around £20 million in transfer fees alone & probably another £10 to £15 million in wages.
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I'm not enjoying much of his style I have to say , its football by numbers and there's little to suggest it will work long term .
My view ( and it was when he got the job having seen a chunk of Barnsley ) was we were a bad fit for each other , very little I've seen so far changes my mind .
That said lets hope Dike is the missing piece , he could also do with keeping TGH in the middle after another impressive display Today and NOT going back to the seemingly favourite few .
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Much better today on the first half I thought.
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Much better today on the first half I thought.
Team and performance better, in-game management as bad as ever.
Dexy hit nail on the head, football by numbers.
He needs to find the combination. Fast.
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How many of our players have improved under VI. I’m struggling to name one but could name several that have regressed.
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How many of our players have improved under VI. I’m struggling to name one but could name several that have regressed.
Pereira...he got out just in time...👍
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I'm not enjoying much of his style I have to say , its football by numbers and there's little to suggest it will work long term .
My view ( and it was when he got the job having seen a chunk of Barnsley ) was we were a bad fit for each other , very little I've seen so far changes my mind .
That said lets hope Dike is the missing piece , he could also do with keeping TGH in the middle after another impressive display Today and NOT going back to the seemingly favourite few .
Have to agree with this. The worry today was a team played openly against us and we still created utterly nothing, people have moaned that it’s because opposition have played defensively against us in the past. Today dispels that. We just don’t create enough chances to win games. It’s that obvious.
He has to change things or I’m afraid he won’t survive no matter what people say.
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Im
Have to agree with this. The worry today was a team played openly against us and we still created utterly nothing, people have moaned that it’s because opposition have played defensively against us in the past. Today dispels that. We just don’t create enough chances to win games. It’s that obvious.
He has to change things or I’m afraid he won’t survive no matter what people say.
You won't create anything with Livermore deployed in central midfield. I've got no problem with Livermore playing in defence with us depleted.
With the emergence of TGHA, there is no need for Livermore to play even 1 more minute as a CM!
The problem is as acute as playing Hugill upfront.
I mean Barrow have scored 4 at Barnsley today, we manged 0. Kidderminster scored 2 v Reading, we managed 1.
7 goals from 12 games, the problem is now at epic proportions.
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Have to agree with this. The worry today was a team played openly against us and we still created utterly nothing, people have moaned that it’s because opposition have played defensively against us in the past. Today dispels that. We just don’t create enough chances to win games. It’s that obvious.
He has to change things or I’m afraid he won’t survive no matter what people say.
We’ll never create anything by aimlessly hoofing the ball up to the most powder puff attack I’ve seen here.
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We’ll never create anything by aimlessly hoofing the ball up to the most powder puff attack I’ve seen here.
Aren't the attack feeding off scraps most of the time? They're not beyond criticism because we have missed chances, but in the big picture it's lack of service.
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We’ll never create anything by aimlessly hoofing the ball up to the most powder puff attack I’ve seen here.
The front three we have are as good as any in this league bar maybe Fulham and the fellow at Blackburn. The issue is, like most champ forwards, they need 3/4 chances to get a goal. They look worse when they only get one chance a game and snatch at it.
We don’t create anywhere near enough and he seriously has to address this now.
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The front three we have are as good as any in this league bar maybe Fulham and the fellow at Blackburn. The issue is, like most champ forwards, they need 3/4 chances to get a goal. They look worse when they only get one chance a game and snatch at it.
We don’t create anywhere near enough and he seriously has to address this now.
We certainly have little from CM in this system , far too much coming down the sides for me .
We've had a history of decent CM's , Dorrans , Sneekes , Mulumbu , Bradley ...list goes on . I for one miss that sort of play right now , I'm not keen on wingers being pressed into forwards either .
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We certainly have little from CM in this system , far too much coming down the sides for me .
We've had a history of decent CM's , Dorrans , Sneekes , Mulumbu , Bradley ...list goes on . I for one miss that sort of play right now , I'm not keen on wingers being pressed into forwards either .
Yep. We need to dump the 3 forwards and get 2 up there and then have a creative playmaker in midfield who’s only job is to make chances happen and unlock defences.
We did have one but he’s in the Middle East.
3 forwards is pointless when you don’t make chances.
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Yep. We need to dump the 3 forwards and get 2 up there and then have a creative playmaker in midfield who’s only job is to make chances happen and unlock defences.
We did have one but he’s in the Middle East.
3 forwards is pointless when you don’t make chances.
You are not going to do any better with 2 of the same 3 forwards. It just means less bodies in and around the box, and being more outnumbered than now.
But we need more creativity coming from midfield. We need better midfielders. Only Mowatt offers us this, and that is only when he gets anywhere near the final third. Livermore and Mulumby offer next to no creativity.
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You are not going to do any better with 2 of the same 3 forwards. It just means less bodies in and around the box, and being more outnumbered than now.
But we need more creativity coming from midfield. We need better midfielders. Only Mowatt offers us this, and that is only when he gets anywhere near the final third. Livermore and Mulumby offer next to no creativity.
In addition, we need quality balls into the box from the wings. The commentator for the Millwall v Palace match yesterday stated that we have put the most crosses into the box of any Championship team this season. Whilst that’s encouraging how many have created genuine goal scoring opportunities even with three forwards in there?
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In addition, we need quality balls into the box from the wings. The commentator for the Millwall v Palace match yesterday stated that we have put the most crosses into the box of any Championship team this season. Whilst that’s encouraging how many have created genuine goal scoring opportunities even with three forwards in there?
I’m my opinion the three forwards need to all be in the box when these crosses go in, each taking up positions or making runs at the near post, far post and around the penalty spot. All too often on the wings, particularly the left, the players are all on top of one another and we have Grant and Townsend on the wing when really Grant would be better in the box. The amount of balls going into the box but the lack of players taking up these positions is mind boggling.
The balls could be as quality and dangerous as we like but if the three forwards aren’t there it’s completely pointless. Robinson seems better at this while Grant much prefers sticking out to the left a bit more.
Hoping Dike offers an improvement on this issue.
We might put the most crosses in but we don’t applaud Livermore for passing the ball into empty space/to the opposition so let’s not collude in the delusion that any crossing stats are a plus point.
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The crossing stat came up in the tactics thread and is a great example of how you can use stats that don’t actually mean a thing when you actually watch our games but to an outsider it sounds like all we’re a missing is a goal scorer.
Of the 20 crosses in the Cardiff game not a single one was any good. Can’t see DD banging these in can you?
The only stats that matter are goals scored and goals against. When you start analysing too much you forget the basic principles and end up constantly using stats to prove things you are trying to do but aren’t doing.
For me this is Val all over presently.
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There were three examples in the first half alone yesterday where we played some nice football and got in behind Brightons defence and to the byline.
Out those three situations, two ended up straight in the keepers arms (one from Townsend and One from Robinson) and one got deflected out the box (that was from Furlong)
Brighton had two situations and scored their second goal from it and forced a good save from the other.
Those positions are potentially great opportunities, a bit of composure in those situations, pick out a man or pull the ball back into a dangerous position and you have a great chance in front of goal, we couldnt do it, thats nothing to do with Ismael or tactics, thats down to the player, and he isnt blessed with options to replace those players, they are about the strongest in that position.
That happens in a lot of games, we get into decent positions but the final ball lacks quality, Ismael can practice with the players but when it comes down to the match, they have to take responsibilty, if they cant they will be moved on and replaced but that doesnt happen overnight, he has said it will take a few transfer windows.
Games against Forest and Blackpool, 0-0 draws and people commenting how bad the performance and result is, if you have the players show a bit of composure or a proper centre forward, you win 1-0, you say three points, clean sheet, ground out a win (which most promoted teams have to do) Ismael can only work with the players there, he hasnt exactly being holding anyone back, he has shuffled the pack trying to find the right blend, he can now add Dike to that and as per above, potentially those draws become wins from now on and its classed as a professional performance.
I took a mate with me yesterday who supports neither team and he was very impressed with Albion til the sending off, we arent in great form at the moment but if people want managers sacked every time we have a run of bad form we will just continue as we are, getting through 2 managers a season and end up back in the championship, at some point you have to realise the approach you were going for isnt working (keeping chopping and changing) as your in a worst position than when you started so credit to the board for trying a new approach and trying to get some stability.
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So many of our crosses seem poor or go to waste . This is not just the fault of who is crossing the ball but the lack of nous in positions to take up and or physical presence of those who should be attacking the ball/ goal. Hopefully this is where Dike comes in as people in wide areas will be able to at the very least be able to see him and his sheer physical presence may well hound defenders into mistakes to the benefit of other forward players
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There were three examples in the first half alone yesterday where we played some nice football and got in behind Brightons defence and to the byline.
Out those three situations, two ended up straight in the keepers arms (one from Townsend and One from Robinson) and one got deflected out the box (that was from Furlong)
Brighton had two situations and scored their second goal from it and forced a good save from the other.
Those positions are potentially great opportunities, a bit of composure in those situations, pick out a man or pull the ball back into a dangerous position and you have a great chance in front of goal, we couldnt do it, thats nothing to do with Ismael or tactics, thats down to the player, and he isnt blessed with options to replace those players, they are about the strongest in that position.
That happens in a lot of games, we get into decent positions but the final ball lacks quality, Ismael can practice with the players but when it comes down to the match, they have to take responsibilty, if they cant they will be moved on and replaced but that doesnt happen overnight, he has said it will take a few transfer windows.
Games against Forest and Blackpool, 0-0 draws and people commenting how bad the performance and result is, if you have the players show a bit of composure or a proper centre forward, you win 1-0, you say three points, clean sheet, ground out a win (which most promoted teams have to do) Ismael can only work with the players there, he hasnt exactly being holding anyone back, he has shuffled the pack trying to find the right blend, he can now add Dike to that and as per above, potentially those draws become wins from now on and its classed as a professional performance.
I took a mate with me yesterday who supports neither team and he was very impressed with Albion til the sending off, we arent in great form at the moment but if people want managers sacked every time we have a run of bad form we will just continue as we are, getting through 2 managers a season and end up back in the championship, at some point you have to realise the approach you were going for isnt working (keeping chopping and changing) as your in a worst position than when you started so credit to the board for trying a new approach and trying to get some stability.
Good post, I don't think we have had a more regimented team than Megsons but when in the Champioship we ground out numerous 1-0s and the fans were happy hopefully with Dike the 0-0 will become narrow wins.
Regarding managers something had to change it's long overdue the club had a long term objective.
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I don’t think you can blame VI for the loss yesterday, the game looked even until the sending off and we looked capable of an upset. The pressure was growing from Brighton but we did not look brittle and I was impressed with how we coped with a top half PL team. The second yellow was soft but at the same time kipre showed a lack of composure to make a poor challenge so soon after getting booked.
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So many of our crosses seem poor or go to waste . This is not just the fault of who is crossing the ball but the lack of nous in positions to take up and or physical presence of those who should be attacking the ball/ goal. Hopefully this is where Dike comes in as people in wide areas will be able to at the very least be able to see him and his sheer physical presence may well hound defenders into mistakes to the benefit of other forward players
Totally agree. The lack of presence and movement in the box is staggering. Dike will make a difference IMO but we still lack quality in the final third.
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Dike is but 1 player and he alone can’t solve all the issues but clearly be an improvement on Hugill, Phillips and Robinson who have all played in the middle at one point. We do need more improvements all over the pitch though. TGH playing in cm appears to be one other way of improving things, the issue with that is it means Furlong keeps his place.
TGH has to replace one of Furlong or Livermore - but the question is which one?
Just watching West Ham and it got me thinking. Rewind a few years and the fans want Moyes out, attendances our poor, they’re not doing as good as the fans want but the board stick with their man. Moyes goes with a powerful striker and wingers and is a fan of the more direct no nonsense approach but the patience is now paying dividends.
West Ham and us have not been dissimilar over the years, we’ve yo-yo’d, had Bilic, Allardyce and Pardew.
The club all pulling in one direction will help too, board, management and players and eventually the fans but this won’t happen in 1 or 2 windows it will be 3, 4 or 5.
Albion79’s post is bang on the money for me. We are far from perfect this season but I’d like to see how we do with Val for longer, give him more windows and hopefully if we can shift 1 or 2 we might see a bit more backing in this window.
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Dike is but 1 player and he alone can’t solve all the issues but clearly be an improvement on Hugill, Phillips and Robinson who have all played in the middle at one point. We do need more improvements all over the pitch though. TGH playing in cm appears to be one other way of improving things, the issue with that is it means Furlong keeps his place.
TGH has to replace one of Furlong or Livermore - but the question is which one?
Just watching West Ham and it got me thinking. Rewind a few years and the fans want Moyes out, attendances our poor, they’re not doing as good as the fans want but the board stick with their man. Moyes goes with a powerful striker and wingers and is a fan of the more direct no nonsense approach but the patience is now paying dividends.
West Ham and us have not been dissimilar over the years, we’ve yo-yo’d, had Bilic, Allardyce and Pardew.
The club all pulling in one direction will help too, board, management and players and eventually the fans but this won’t happen in 1 or 2 windows it will be 3, 4 or 5.
Albion79’s post is bang on the money for me. We are far from perfect this season but I’d like to see how we do with Val for longer, give him more windows and hopefully if we can shift 1 or 2 we might see a bit more backing in this window.
Very good post that mate.
Sometimes you have to take a step back, re-group and then move forward. It might not be overly enjoyable in the short term but in the long term it may pay dividends.
It's ridiculous to judge Val on one transfer window. He clearly has a very clear vision of what he wants to do and he clearly doesn't have enough of the right type of players at his disposal.
Let's judge him when he's had proper chance to implement his philosophy. It might mean it's next season rather than this when we're where we want to be.
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With arrival of Dike think Val is here for foreseeable future and with that being said I for one would like him to include more youngsters in first team if your good enough your old enough.
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The crossing stat came up in the tactics thread and is a great example of how you can use stats that don’t actually mean a thing when you actually watch our games but to an outsider it sounds like all we’re a missing is a goal scorer.
Of the 20 crosses in the Cardiff game not a single one was any good. Can’t see DD banging these in can you?
The only stats that matter are goals scored and goals against. When you start analysing too much you forget the basic principles and end up constantly using stats to prove things you are trying to do but aren’t doing.
For me this is Val all over presently.
At the moment we have zero physical presence up front and teams are defending in numbers so the CBs are totally bossing the 5 yard box with crosses coming in. They dont even have to work hard, just stand their ground and clear. Its what we've seen. Cross, clear. Cross, clear.
With a big man attacking the ball (regardless of the quailty of cross or whether he scores) he draws the best and biggest CB to him taking them out of the game and spoiling their shape. If he's a real handful he might even draw two defenders spoiling their shape even further. This is the least of what Val is hoping Dike will bring and is what i was expected of Hugil. Regardless of goals what has been really dissapointing is the lack of impact he's had on games. Hes as easily bossed by big CBs as any of the others.
Having a natural number 9 in the box can also make a difference to the players crossing. At the moment these balls are being hit in hope, I don't think the players are expecting anyone to win the ball. If you look up and see your striker making a run you have something to aim for.
Finally If Dike CAN also bludgeon his way to a few early goals then it's a cliche but "goals do change games". It will draw teams out and allow us to try and play the game Val wants. Its been said many times but you can't press a team that doesn't have or want the ball.
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I agree that with the arrival of Dike, I think VI will be here until the end of the season at least.
However let’s not kid ourselves that Dike makes VI bulletproof. 10 games is a long time in football, and if we get the same return from the next 10 games as we have the last 10, VI will be in serious trouble.
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With arrival of Dike think Val is here for foreseeable future and with that being said I for one would like him to include more youngsters in first team if your good enough your old enough.
I will agree that Ishmael is here for the forseeable. I tweeted last night, this board will hang onto him for grim death, they've invested too much time and money in him not too, but they'll hang on too long and set us back 25 years.
But as for the kids, they're not ready. Watching that yesterday, you could tell. They got nowhere near Brighton - you'd expect league 2 players to do better. They aren't strong enough, and they aren't ready. Even Fellows, who's made a few appearances - he got done for experience against Cardiff by a Wolves loanee who's only a couple of years older.
They might have the technical ability, but physically and mentally they aren't there yet.
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From the snippets I’ve seen of Dike he looks to be a striker who thrives in and around box so wide men being able to deliver balls to him is a must. That being said I believe Grady should be played in his best position on the left with Grant on right, inverted winger’s would greatly reduce his impact on games.
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I will agree that Ishmael is here for the forseeable. I tweeted last night, this board will hang onto him for grim death, they've invested too much time and money in him not too, but they'll hang on too long and set us back 25 years.
But as for the kids, they're not ready. Watching that yesterday, you could tell. They got nowhere near Brighton - you'd expect league 2 players to do better. They aren't strong enough, and they aren't ready. Even Fellows, who's made a few appearances - he got done for experience against Cardiff by a Wolves loanee who's only a couple of years older.
They might have the technical ability, but physically and mentally they aren't there yet.
bit harsh on our youngsters there, TGH has been a revelation in the games his played and the limited game time Fellow’s has had I don’t think you can judge him. One of Vals remits was to create a pathway from under 23s to first team so let’s hope to see a few more graduate’s get games under their belts.
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From the snippets I’ve seen of Dike he looks to be a striker who thrives in and around box so wide men being able to deliver balls to him is a must. That being said I believe Grady should be played in his best position on the left with Grant on right, inverted winger’s would greatly reduce his impact on games.
I've been saying this a ll season, the only way your going to get a tune out of Grady is on the left, Total waste of space on the right or anywhere else for that matter.
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I've been saying this a ll season, the only way your going to get a tune out of Grady is on the left, Total waste of space on the right or anywhere else for that matter.
In his purple patch before injury Grady was skinning players left and right. Remember the juggle over the head? Off the right. The problem seems to be Grady, not where he plays. However I do agree that it would be good to at least see him given the option.
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Grady needs selling if we could find anyone to take him. Terrible signing. No pace, no strength, can't use the ball at his feet, doesnt seem to understand the position he's supposed to be playing, spends more time on his backside than on his feet.
Another Bilic / Dowling masterstroke.
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Grady needs selling if we could find anyone to take him. Terrible signing. No pace, no strength, can't use the ball at his feet, doesnt seem to understand the position he's supposed to be playing, spends more time on his backside than on his feet.
Another Bilic / Dowling masterstroke.
I’m not so sure I think the player that excited us is still in there somewhere. I really hope that he can get back to his best.
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So, for those carping on about 4-3-3.
AND
Those asserting this year's Championship is very poor ...
Forest of the Championship have just knocked Arsenal out of the cup ... playing 4-3-3.
TBF, Forest have been able to afford to loan some good players are reasonably well funded. But it's the players that finesse the formation and up to now our players haven't managed that.
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So, for those carping on about 4-3-3.
AND
Those asserting this year's Championship is very poor ...
Forest of the Championship have just knocked Arsenal out of the cup ... playing 4-3-3.
TBF, Forest have been able to afford to loan some good players are reasonably well funded. But it's the players that finesse the formation and up to now our players haven't managed that.
Are you sure?
This is how BBC sport saw it
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/59644010 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/59644010)
Click on the line-ups tab.
And, it was Arsenal reserves, which they had put that team out against us.
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So, for those carping on about 4-3-3.
AND
Those asserting this year's Championship is very poor ...
Forest of the Championship have just knocked Arsenal out of the cup ... playing 4-3-3.
TBF, Forest have been able to afford to loan some good players are reasonably well funded. But it's the players that finesse the formation and up to now our players haven't managed that.
You can choose a single match to isolation to prove pretty much anything in football.
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Some great posts on here tonight, Albion79 and Lewisant being two standouts.
I have issues with Ismael's flexibility and the feeling we were overpromised (so far) on his willingness to use youth prospects in anything other than cup games. I feel there have been opportunities to tweak the system, such as playing 3 central midfielders with one in a number 10 style role, the option to shuffle the pack a bit more such as playing Diangana in his favoured left side position or even bringing young players on for 20 minutes to add some spark. I've also made no secret of the fact that I've lost patience with him and wouldn't be gutted to see him go.
All that said, my view last month was that Ismael has to succeed if we are to avoid becoming another Forest/Preston/Swansea/Ipswich/Cardiff/Derby. We don't have the Ashworth type figure leading us behind the scenes and we don't have the money or size of club to bully the rest of the pack. Our last trump card is to have a manager with a unique approach that works, ala Dyche with Burnsley. Albion79 and Lewisant make the point well that despite my misgivings about what he has shown so far, it is good to see the club decide they have a long term vision and to try to make it work.
I am getting more and more critical of Ismael for a number of reasons, but it is a fair point that it make take some time for everything to work as it should.
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Are you sure?
This is how BBC sport saw it
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/59644010 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/59644010)
Click on the line-ups tab.
And, it was Arsenal reserves, which they had put that team out against us.
Yes https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/59644010
But the main piece has the line-up as 3-4-3. See down RHS
"
Line-ups
Nottm Forest
Formation 3-4-3
"
But really the formation should be flexible as per the situation as I put in a previous post.
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Are you sure?
This is how BBC sport saw it
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/59644010 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/59644010)
Click on the line-ups tab.
And, it was Arsenal reserves, which they had put that team out against us.
I wathed the game and Forest where very good. Arsenal not one shot on target, Forest have a few good players and they certainly looked better than we have played, although having said that every game i watch in the Championship all the teams look better thane we do. More pace,more movement, moving the ball quicker 100% committed, not seeing any of that at the Albion. Just my view.
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You can choose a single match to isolation to prove pretty much anything in football.
You are absolutely correct but I haven't seen any objective evidence here that indicates that this seasons Championship is particularity poor. It might be that the posters are comparing the opposition to the sides we played in the EPL.
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I wathed the game and Forest where very good. Arsenal not one shot on target, Forest have a few good players and they certainly looked better than we have played, although having said that every game i watch in the Championship all the teams look better thane we do. More pace,more movement, moving the ball quicker 100% committed, not seeing any of that at the Albion. Just my view.
The op had said that Forest had lined up in a 4:3:3 formation, BBC showed them lining up in a 3:4:3 formation.
I also watched the game, & I didn't see a very good Nottingham Forest in the way you described.
Certainly didn't have more movement, a poor Arsenal team had Forest playing in their own half for most of the game.
I've missed two home games with illness this season, (I watched those on TV), can't think of any that outplayed us.
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Grady needs selling if we could find anyone to take him. Terrible signing. No pace, no strength, can't use the ball at his feet, doesnt seem to understand the position he's supposed to be playing, spends more time on his backside than on his feet.
Another Bilic / Dowling masterstroke.
It looks as if David Moyes knew exactly what he was doing. He’s a really poor player.
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I've missed two home games with illness this season, (I watched those on TV), can't think of any that outplayed us.
Indeed. My view is that the criticism Val is receiving is completely OTT. I can only think of one game this season in which we've been outplayed (Fulham and even then we gifted them goals and also ended up with 10 men). We've conceded the equal fewest number of goals this season (with Fulham who've played 2 games fewer) and have only lost 5 of our 25 league games to date. Here are some more stats from whoscored.com (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022):
- Second highest average goal attempts per game (16)
- Highest average goal attempts per game inside six yard box (2)
- Second highest average goal attempts per game inside penalty area (9)
- Highest positional percentage in the final third (35%)
- Fewest average goal attempts per game against (7.8 )
- Fewest average saves made per game (1.4)
- Fifth highest overall rating for passing
- We are the only unbeaten side at home (12 games - conceding only 6 goals). All other clubs in the division have lost at least twice at home
- Only Blackburn have won more of their home games than us
It's not all marvellous of course - we have the worst average number of inaccurate short passes per game in the division (74) and our overall successful pass percentage is the third worst (67.6%).
Ultimately though, our problems lie in the final third and if it wasn't for that we'd be in an automatic promotion position. However, it's not as terrible as many are making out and it isn't worse than (or even anything like) Pulisball. I'm satisfied that the overall performance stats mean that Val deserves time to shape the squad into what he wants, and that people need to try to find it within themselves to give him a break in the meantime.
Obviously we need more wins, but the vitriol of the criticism just isn't justified IMO. I just hope the arrival of Dike wakes up some of our other misfiring forwards, as it would be unfair (and possibly counter-productive) for the entire weight of expectation to be on his shoulders.
One final stat - Fulham haven't won any of their last 5 league games....
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I wathed the game and Forest where very good. Arsenal not one shot on target, Forest have a few good players and they certainly looked better than we have played, although having said that every game i watch in the Championship all the teams look better thane we do. More pace,more movement, moving the ball quicker 100% committed, not seeing any of that at the Albion. Just my view.
You're entitled to your view of course, but unfortunately for you there is absolutely zero evidence to back it up. If you were correct we would be bottom, simple as that
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Indeed. My view is that the criticism Val is receiving is completely OTT. I can only think of one game this season in which we've been outplayed (Fulham and even then we gifted them goals and also ended up with 10 men). We've conceded the equal fewest number of goals this season (with Fulham who've played 2 games fewer) and have only lost 5 of our 25 league games to date. Here are some more stats from whoscored.com (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022):
- Second highest average goal attempts per game (16)
- Highest average goal attempts per game inside six yard box (2)
- Second highest average goal attempts per game inside penalty area (9)
- Highest positional percentage in the final third (35%)
- Fewest average goal attempts per game conceded (7.8 )
- Fewest average saves made per game (1.4)
- Fifth highest overall rating for passing
- We are the only unbeaten side at home (12 games - conceding only 6 goals). All other clubs in the division have lost at least twice at home
- Only Blackburn have won more of their home games than us
It's not all marvellous of course - we have the worst average number of inaccurate short passes per game in the division (74) and our overall successful pass percentage is the third worst (67.6%).
Ultimately though, our problems lie in the final third and if it wasn't for that we'd be in an automatic promotion position. However, it's not as terrible as many are making out and it isn't worse than (or even anything like) Pulisball. I'm satisfied that the overall performance stats mean that Val deserves time to shape the squad into what he wants, and that people need to try to find it within themselves to give him a break in the meantime.
Obviously we need more wins, but the vitriol of the criticism just isn't justified IMO. I just hope the arrival of Dike wakes up some of our other misfiring forwards, as it would be unfair (and possibly counter-productive) for the entire weight of expectation to be on his shoulders.
Yes, you keep pointing out the facts but largely to no avail for some reason. The other thing to factor in of course is that we have embarked on a 4 year project which involves rebuilding the squad by investing in younger players with potential for improvement and developing the academy kids. This has to be done on a very limited budget and so will take time and require patience. Whether the plan will work, we will have to wait and see of course, but for now I'm happy that I can actually see a plan rather than blindly hoping that a change of manager every 12 months or so will sort all our problems.
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You're entitled to your view of course, but unfortunately for you there is absolutely zero evidence to back it up. If you were correct we would be bottom, simple as that
This.
Emotions are non existant when it comes to other clubs and their players. They seem better when we're not attached to them. Its similar to when players aren't in the team, they are always better than the ones that are.
Forest have lost their last two league games, are below us in the table and will very probably finish below us at the end of the season.
But yeah we're xxxx and every other team is better. ::)
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Indeed. My view is that the criticism Val is receiving is completely OTT. I can only think of one game this season in which we've been outplayed (Fulham and even then we gifted them goals and also ended up with 10 men). We've conceded the equal fewest number of goals this season (with Fulham who've played 2 games fewer) and have only lost 5 of our 25 league games to date. Here are some more stats from whoscored.com (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022):
- Second highest average goal attempts per game (16)
- Highest average goal attempts per game inside six yard box (2)
- Second highest average goal attempts per game inside penalty area (9)
- Highest positional percentage in the final third (35%)
- Fewest average goal attempts per game against (7.8 )
- Fewest average saves made per game (1.4)
- Fifth highest overall rating for passing
- We are the only unbeaten side at home (12 games - conceding only 6 goals). All other clubs in the division have lost at least twice at home
- Only Blackburn have won more of their home games than us
It's not all marvellous of course - we have the worst average number of inaccurate short passes per game in the division (74) and our overall successful pass percentage is the third worst (67.6%).
Ultimately though, our problems lie in the final third and if it wasn't for that we'd be in an automatic promotion position. However, it's not as terrible as many are making out and it isn't worse than (or even anything like) Pulisball. I'm satisfied that the overall performance stats mean that Val deserves time to shape the squad into what he wants, and that people need to try to find it within themselves to give him a break in the meantime.
Obviously we need more wins, but the vitriol of the criticism just isn't justified IMO. I just hope the arrival of Dike wakes up some of our other misfiring forwards, as it would be unfair (and possibly counter-productive) for the entire weight of expectation to be on his shoulders.
One final stat - Fulham haven't won any of their last 5 league games....
A fantastic post. Nothing more to add to that.
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except we're sliding down the table,whatever the stats say.
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except we're sliding down the table,whatever the stats say.
and most likely even further after this coming saturday
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Before my point gets lost in the are we or aren't we a good team, I was only demurring from the claims that this season's championship is of very poor quality and thus we, West Bromwich Albion, are entitled to promotion. Furthermore that any manager that cannot achieve this easy feat with the players we have is sub-standard.
Forest are 9th in the division and, in the opinion of ITV commentators and BBC journos, outplayed an Arsenal team containing some costly players (Odegaarde, White, Sako, Tierney) and most of the 11 were familiar to EPL standard football.
The Championship is always a tough ask and we are in a reformation phase. If Ismael gets us in to the playoffs, he will, in my opinion have done a good job.
BTW I would have preferred that we signed up Critchley of Blackpool but we are where we are.
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except we're sliding down the table,whatever the stats say.
We're 4 points off an automatic promotion place at the moment. We were nowhere near that not so long ago.
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We're 4 points off an automatic promotion place at the moment. We were nowhere near that not so long ago.
We do need a turning point though, something to spark the enthusiasm and positivity, at the minute it's all a bit samey. Hopefully Dike can provide that by giving us that extra dimension up top.
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We're 4 points off an automatic promotion place at the moment. We were nowhere near that not so long ago.
I do agree with your general point from other posts you've made about Ismael. Sorry to be a pedant but "not so long ago" we were 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the division.
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I do agree with your general point from other posts you've made about Ismael. Sorry to be a pedant but "not so long ago" we were 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the division.
We've gone on a poor run due to our inability to stick the ball in the net. We've just signed a striker, surely he deserves the chance to see whether Dike hits the ground running. That's the long and short of it really isn't it?
Not that you are here but bringing him his number one target and still calling for his head is baffling and is how you set yourselves on the path to being the next Blues, Ipswich, Forest etc.
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We've gone on a poor run due to our inability to stick the ball in the net. We've just signed a striker, surely he deserves the chance to see whether Dike hits the ground running. That's the long and short of it really isn't it?
Not that you are here but bringing him his number one target and still calling for his head is baffling and is how you set yourselves on the path to being the next Blues, Ipswich, Forest etc.
I'm one of the supporters of Ismael and hope he is given the time and resources to get us truly playing how he wants. My comment was more tongue in cheek than serious.
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I'm one of the supporters of Ismael and hope he is given the time and resources to get us truly playing how he wants. My comment was more tongue in cheek than serious.
Fair enough, it's becoming increasingly difficult to differentiate between those being flippant and those who don't have a clue what they're talking about at the moment.
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We've gone on a poor run due to our inability to stick the ball in the net. We've just signed a striker, surely he deserves the chance to see whether Dike hits the ground running. That's the long and short of it really isn't it?
Not that you are here but bringing him his number one target and still calling for his head is baffling and is how you set yourselves on the path to being the next Blues, Ipswich, Forest etc.
You've raised a good point do we really want to sack a manager who has been here only 6mths and only just signed what could be a key player in our future plans.
Goalscoring or lack of it is why we are not in the automatic positions I think we have signed as good a player as we could to rectify that problem also with an eye to the future and not a short-term solution as we have tried so often in the past.
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- Second highest average goal attempts per game (16)
- Highest average goal attempts per game inside six yard box (2)
- Second highest average goal attempts per game inside penalty area (9)
- Highest positional percentage in the final third (35%)
- Fewest average goal attempts per game against (7.8 )
- Fewest average saves made per game (1.4)
- Fifth highest overall rating for passing
- We are the only unbeaten side at home (12 games - conceding only 6 goals). All other clubs in the division have lost at least twice at home
- Only Blackburn have won more of their home games than us
How many extra points does that get us at the end of the season? Or is there a "fewest average saves made per game" trophy ;D?
I mean, all that list points out to me is that we're a solid defensive team that struggles to create clear cut chances. Our goals For column shows this.
The important stat is "points" and we've slipped into the chasing pack after a promising start to the season. There's a lot resting on Dike being able to turn our form around because at this rate we'll finish outside the playoffs and then we'll be relying on stuff like "but we've got the best number of saves made a goalkeeper on Wednesday evening matches".
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Fair enough, it's becoming increasingly difficult to differentiate between those being flippant and those who don't have a clue what they're talking about at the moment.
I should have used the tongue out emoji!
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Fair enough, it's becoming increasingly difficult to differentiate between those being flippant and those who don't have a clue what they're talking about at the moment.
Now he's got the striker he wants he should be given the rest of the season unless we're heading out the play offs and there's no chance of him being here next season. I'd rather get a new manager in with 5 games to go so he can assess the squad than wait until the last day of the season to fire the manager (all depending who is or isn't available of course).
What we can't do though is fall into the trap of "oh, he's got the striker, but he's still got X that he didn't sign" and keep making excuses. He's had long enough that we should be seeing progress - not end up going backwards.
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How many extra points does that get us at the end of the season? Or is there a "fewest average saves made per game" trophy ;D?
I mean, all that list points out to me is that we're a solid defensive team that struggles to create clear cut chances. Our goals For column shows this.
The important stat is "points" and we've slipped into the chasing pack after a promising start to the season. There's a lot resting on Dike being able to turn our form around because at this rate we'll finish outside the playoffs and then we'll be relying on stuff like "but we've got the best number of saves made a goalkeeper on Wednesday evening matches".
The data suggests that if we keep performing as we are, but add the correct personnel to solve the problem (goal scoring) that we have, then we will improve.
Result are what matter, but this shows we are doing the right things. Over time, providing issues are addressed which we've taken steps to with the addition of Dike you would expect results to follow the same pattern.
Now he's got the striker he wants he should be given the rest of the season unless we're heading out the play offs and there's no chance of him being here next season. I'd rather get a new manager in with 5 games to go so he can assess the squad than wait until the last day of the season to fire the manager (all depending who is or isn't available of course).
What we can't do though is fall into the trap of "oh, he's got the striker, but he's still got X that he didn't sign" and keep making excuses. He's had long enough that we should be seeing progress - not end up going backwards.
I'm not sure now we've signed Dike that we have any further excuses. Dike was his number one choice, so if we keep continue creating chances and Dike can't finish then it's on Val. Likewise, if we regress to the point where we aren't even creating chances, that too is on Val and he will get what he deserves.
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Now he's got the striker he wants he should be given the rest of the season unless we're heading out the play offs and there's no chance of him being here next season. I'd rather get a new manager in with 5 games to go so he can assess the squad than wait until the last day of the season to fire the manager (all depending who is or isn't available of course).
What we can't do though is fall into the trap of "oh, he's got the striker, but he's still got X that he didn't sign" and keep making excuses. He's had long enough that we should be seeing progress - not end up going backwards.
Yep, Dike will improve us but the problems with the squad and VI go deeper than a single striker.
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Dike was his number one choice, so if we keep continue creating chances and Dike can't finish then it's on Val. Likewise, if we regress to the point where we aren't even creating chances, that too is on Val and he will get what he deserves.
I think we struggle to create chances now. I know 'shots' stat is high, but how many clear chances where you come away thinking, "can't believe we didn't score there" do we create in comparison to what our shot stats say.
That's why I fear Dike isn't the magic bullet - he's not going to score from a cross that goes out for a throw in.
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How many extra points does that get us at the end of the season? Or is there a "fewest average saves made per game" trophy ;D?
I mean, all that list points out to me is that we're a solid defensive team that struggles to create clear cut chances. Our goals For column shows this.
The important stat is "points" and we've slipped into the chasing pack after a promising start to the season. There's a lot resting on Dike being able to turn our form around because at this rate we'll finish outside the playoffs and then we'll be relying on stuff like "but we've got the best number of saves made a goalkeeper on Wednesday evening matches".
With the greatest of respect, our goals for column shows that we're not able to convert the many chances we create.
Our creativity is not in question, our expected goals performance shows that.
I agree, there is a lot resting on Dike, but not necessarily as an out & out goalscorer, more that he will be able to take defenders away to give our other forwards more space.
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I think we struggle to create chances now. I know 'shots' stat is high, but how many clear chances where you come away thinking, "can't believe we didn't score there" do we create in comparison to what our shot stats say.
That's why I fear Dike isn't the magic bullet - he's not going to score from a cross that goes out for a throw in.
Agree to disagree. The data is there for all to see that we get into enough good positions to score goals and that we don't concede many. We've played our joker early, let's see what Dike can do. We're 8/10ths of the way to being a more than good enough side at this level. As the squad is turned over, the comments Val has made the last week or so give me the encouragement that he knows we have to look long term when bringing in new players.
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except we're sliding down the table,whatever the stats say.
Strange, I was sure it was an FA Cup weekend. Sad news we dropped further down the table this weekend.
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How many extra points does that get us at the end of the season? Or is there a "fewest average saves made per game" trophy ;D?
I should probably revert to the basic "he's rubbish"/"he's great" type posts, rather than wasting my time on anything more objective/analytical, as the latter just tend to get ignored or mocked so aren't worth the effort.
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Yep, Dike will improve us but the problems with the squad and VI go deeper than a single striker.
Of course they do.
Three years ago we drew Brighton in the cup. We went ahead but conceded due to a defensive mistake and lost in extra time. We started with two academy graduates and had a spine made up of Barts and Livermore.
Since then we've had FOUR managers offering different experience and playing styles, we've been promoted and relegated. We've seen good players leave, including our best player in a generation for next to nothing, but spent £35 ish million on forwards.
On Saturday We played Brighton in the cup. We went ahead but conceded due to a defensive mistake and lost in extra time. We started with two academy graduates and had a spine made up of Barts and Livermore.
It all comes down to player quality. The 2019 squad had JRod, Gayle, Barnes (for half season!), Gibbs, Hegazi, Dawson but got knocked out the cup and failed to get promoted. I'm not sure we have upgraded on any of those players to leave? (I'm not considering DD until he plays). So we are pretty much where we were in 2019, but i would argue with a marginally poorer squad.
Billic DID succeed but had Perreira who was a difference player at this level and £12m Grady for half a season. Arguably if Harvey Barnes hadn't been recalled Big Dave may have been promoted himself in 2019 as he was the difference player in that team. We can only hope that the signing of Dike provides the difference this year between success and failure.
However, what I also think this suggests is the revolving door for managers has not really improved our overall position. Its our recruitment of players that needs to improve but our budget is limited. The club are hoping that Vals more statistical based footballing methodology and recruitment will be part of finding a solution to that particular issue. Time will tell.
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Now he's got the striker he wants he should be given the rest of the season unless we're heading out the play offs and there's no chance of him being here next season. I'd rather get a new manager in with 5 games to go so he can assess the squad than wait until the last day of the season to fire the manager (all depending who is or isn't available of course).
What we can't do though is fall into the trap of "oh, he's got the striker, but he's still got X that he didn't sign" and keep making excuses. He's had long enough that we should be seeing progress - not end up going backwards.
Going backwards compared to what? We have about half the first choice starting XI from the Championship side (Johnston, Furlong, Livermore , Bartley ,Robinson ) plus a couple of others on the fringes either then or now . From last year we lost all our loanees and had to replace with lesser quality players . Don’t think there is too much there that can be laid at VIs door . We have basically slipped a place or two on the strength of Blackburns ( we won there ) exceptional form , where they have the benefit of a regular scorer so we are back to that again .
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I should probably revert to the basic "he's rubbish"/"he's great" type posts, rather than wasting my time on anything more objective/analytical, as the latter just tend to get ignored or mocked so aren't worth the effort.
It's more that you can pick any club in the top 10 and probably pull in some similar sounding stats. Especially as any criticism was met with "well, we're top\2nd\in touch with the top 2\top scorers\best home record", yet all we've actually seen is a decline in performances and points haul and now we're left clutching at fewest average saves per game.
We know we do well defensively, (and in a lot of people's opinion, that comes at the expense of decent attacking play), the interesting thing is that our "shots" is so high yet we create very few clear chances. Having 20 shots means absolutely nothing if all of them are from 35 yards and slam against a defender's legs. There was a recent game where we had a lot of shots but the best chance we had was an xG of 0.3. That's a 30% chance of scoring, they're not great chances, most aren't even half chances.
I don't think any of our forwards are good at playing with their back to goal - which is what Dike will hopefully bring to the team. But we need him to be as good as we're hoping AND the players around him (specifically the wing backs and players like Reach) remembering how to cross a ball.
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Going backwards compared to what? We have about half the first choice starting XI from the Championship side (Johnston, Furlong, Livermore , Bartley ,Robinson ) plus a couple of others on the fringes either then or now . From last year we lost all our loanees and had to replace with lesser quality players . Don’t think there is too much there that can be laid at VIs door . We have basically slipped a place or two on the strength of Blackburns ( we won there ) exceptional form , where they have the benefit of a regular scorer so we are back to that again .
Going backwards as we progress through the season. I don't compare us with teams from yesteryear as we don't have those players. It's why I don't put much stock in the "we're doing well because this is the worst squad we've had for 20 years" position. I compare our team against the rest of the Championship.
If we're to judge Val it should be on the progress he's made this year.
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Going backwards as we progress through the season. I don't compare us with teams from yesteryear as we don't have those players. It's why I don't put much stock in the "we're doing well because this is the worst squad we've had for 20 years" position. I compare our team against the rest of the Championship.
If we're to judge Val it should be on the progress he's made this year.
He's been in the job 6mths what are you comparing him against?
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With the greatest of respect, our goals for column shows that we're not able to convert the many chances we create.
Our creativity is not in question, our expected goals performance shows that.
I dunno though, I think our creativity is in question. Our goals for column just shows that we don't score many goals. This is what I'm saying, it's the quality of chances. If you have a chance that's an xG of 0.3, that's a 30% chance of scoring. Would you rather have 3 of those chances or one chance that's an xG of 0.9? And if you want to look into how we create goals, we're successful from throw ins (but I'd argue even that has tailed off this season), and everything else, cross, corners, free kicks, through balls, we're basically mid-table.
I've watched every game this season. There's not been many games lately where I come away thinking, "can't believe we didn't win that, we had so many chances and just couldn't find the back of the net". More often it's "we controlled the game but we just didn't create anything".
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Going backwards compared to what? We have about half the first choice starting XI from the Championship side (Johnston, Furlong, Livermore , Bartley ,Robinson ) plus a couple of others on the fringes either then or now . From last year we lost all our loanees and had to replace with lesser quality players . Don’t think there is too much there that can be laid at VIs door . We have basically slipped a place or two on the strength of Blackburns ( we won there ) exceptional form , where they have the benefit of a regular scorer so we are back to that again .
We're going backwards compared to the first 10 games or so. Same players, same manager so what's changed? If, as many believe, we were simply "found out" then it is up to Val to adapt, and counter the counter tactics of the opposition. So far, he has tried we have to give him that, but has fallen short so it does appear that managers of worse teams (which they are) are out-coaching him. Now, it's probably easier to shut up shop and hope for a draw, but Val took on the job as manager of a team fighting for promotion, so he has to accept this state of affairs. At present we are just about achieving the remit, but we are on shaky ground, shakier than any other point this season so he needs to knuckle down and find an answer, even if it means deviating even further from his primary approach.
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I dunno though, I think our creativity is in question. Our goals for column just shows that we don't score many goals. This is what I'm saying, it's the quality of chances. If you have a chance that's an xG of 0.3, that's a 30% chance of scoring. Would you rather have 3 of those chances or one chance that's an xG of 0.9? And if you want to look into how we create goals, we're successful from throw ins (but I'd argue even that has tailed off this season), and everything else, cross, corners, free kicks, through balls, we're basically mid-table.
I've watched every game this season. There's not been many games lately where I come away thinking, "can't believe we didn't win that, we had so many chances and just couldn't find the back of the net". More often it's "we controlled the game but we just didn't create anything".
Given a penalty in most models is around 0.74 xG, we'd literally be needing players unmarked for tap ins every game to get 0.9 xG.
I think a better comparison is we take a lot of shots that are <0.1 xG, so less than a 10% chance of a goal. I'd rather have 3 0.3 xG chances than 10 0.1 chances
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He's been in the job 6mths what are you comparing him against?
The same season. Are we in a better place now than 6 months ago? At the end of the season have we made progress throughout the season?
I'm not sure how else you judge a manager? Can't wait for the end of 4 years to see if he's doing a good job can we?
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Given a penalty in most models is around 0.74 xG, we'd literally be needing players unmarked for tap ins every game to get 0.9 xG.
I think a better comparison is we take a lot of shots that are <0.1 xG, so less than a 10% chance of a goal. I'd rather have 3 0.3 xG chances than 10 0.1 chances
Yeah, fair point, I was just using number examples rather than real world game examples.
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You are not going to do any better with 2 of the same 3 forwards. It just means less bodies in and around the box, and being more outnumbered than now.
But we need more creativity coming from midfield. We need better midfielders. Only Mowatt offers us this, and that is only when he gets anywhere near the final third. Livermore and Mulumby offer next to no creativity.
You are if it puts an extra man and creates dominance/ creativity in midfield
Liverpool’s 3 and PSG with 3 up front works because of the quality of midfield, we don’t have that , so should be looking to win the midfield area first and transition in to attack.
God we need a sessegnon,Gera, pereria,Texeira, koumas….I can’t think of one central midfielder that can do anything that those guys could, Livermore, mow at, mulumby are dating signs of where we have gone wrong …
It’s not the forwards or defenders, it’s our midfield that is hampering us along with the coach who is out of his depth.
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We know we do well defensively, (and in a lot of people's opinion, that comes at the expense of decent attacking play), the interesting thing is that our "shots" is so high yet we create very few clear chances. Having 20 shots means absolutely nothing if all of them are from 35 yards and slam against a defender's legs.
People keep posting this kind of thing, which is why I posted 2 stats which refute it. I've accepted that we're lacking in the final third, but our overall record over the season so far doesn't mean the manager has to be lynched from the nearest yardarm.
The squad needs an overhaul as it's weaker than when we last got promoted. However, we're also lacking significantly in transfer funds compared to then, which is not the manager's fault.
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People keep posting this kind of thing, which is why I posted 2 stats which refute it. I've accepted that we're lacking in the final third, but our overall record over the season so far doesn't mean the manager has to be lynched from the nearest yardarm.
The squad needs an overhaul as it's weaker than when we last got promoted. However, we're also lacking significantly in transfer funds compared to then, which is not the manager's fault.
I don't think anyone is lynching him tbh. Here's an example from the Cardiff game.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1553887/Live/England-Championship-2021-2022-West-Bromwich-Albion-Cardiff
Click chalkboard, then the orange spots are our shots. We had a healthy 16 'shots' but click each one. There's the goal, great. There's two missed 'shots' from Bartley that were close. A miss from TGH from miles out. A save from Diangana. The rest are "shot blocked" from around the edge of the box. 3 shots on target, 1 was the goal, the others saved from Robbo and Diangana. That's 13 off target and blocked shots.
Check against Derby. 19 shots. You can see the ones inside the box are nearly all Bartley and Clarke and pretty much all headers. All the shots are around the edge of the box nearly all blocked. On target we had 2 headers (Reach and Hugill from set pieces), and 2 shots saved. So that's 15 off target and shot blocked.
Those facts back up what we see on the pitch. Set pieces\corners are the ball thrown into the box. Most of the attacking players shots come from around the edge of the box.
Against Barnsley, 3 shots on target from 16. Two from Hugill(!) and one from Grant which was classed as a Big Chance by opta.
What I see from the stats and from watching the games, is that we take a lot of shots, just not from very good positions. Would also be interesting to see what the split of shots is between defenders and midfield\forwards.
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For me this is a season of two halves so far, and a quick analysis of our points gained during these two periods is telling. So from our first 10 games we were unbeaten and accrued 22 points from 10 games. An average of 2.2 points per game will most certainly get you an automatic spot. From my memory of the majority of the posts on here it was happy days all round.
We suffered our first loss away at Stoke, and from that game to date we have played 15 and accrued 20 points. This is an average of 1.33 points per game.
If we add both period together we are currently on 1.68 points per game. If we carry on in this manner we are looking at 6th place and hoping that there is no one below us hitting form. If we look at the table at present, Mr Wilder has got Middlesbrough fired up, and Sheffield United are also hitting form. Thankfully Fulham have hit a wall but they are a good side with quality throughout, so I cannot see them falling out of the race.
Lets just hope Daryl has got his shooting boots with him eh?
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Alea Iacta Est.
This really is his big play now bringing Dike in, let's hope he hits the ground running. I've been critical of him several times for his rigid strategy, but he's obviously going to stick to it, so we have to hope Dike stays fit for 20 games or so and make the difference.
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The same season. Are we in a better place now than 6 months ago? At the end of the season have we made progress throughout the season?
I'm not sure how else you judge a manager? Can't wait for the end of 4 years to see if he's doing a good job can we?
So you judge a manager from the 1st game if we win that then that's the standard he has set?
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I don't think anyone is lynching him tbh. Here's an example from the Cardiff game.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1553887/Live/England-Championship-2021-2022-West-Bromwich-Albion-Cardiff
Click chalkboard, then the orange spots are our shots. We had a healthy 16 'shots' but click each one. There's the goal, great. There's two missed 'shots' from Bartley that were close. A miss from TGH from miles out. A save from Diangana. The rest are "shot blocked" from around the edge of the box. 3 shots on target, 1 was the goal, the others saved from Robbo and Diangana. That's 13 off target and blocked shots.
Check against Derby. 19 shots. You can see the ones inside the box are nearly all Bartley and Clarke and pretty much all headers. All the shots are around the edge of the box nearly all blocked. On target we had 2 headers (Reach and Hugill from set pieces), and 2 shots saved. So that's 15 off target and shot blocked.
Those facts back up what we see on the pitch. Set pieces\corners are the ball thrown into the box. Most of the attacking players shots come from around the edge of the box.
Against Barnsley, 3 shots on target from 16. Two from Hugill(!) and one from Grant which was classed as a Big Chance by opta.
What I see from the stats and from watching the games, is that we take a lot of shots, just not from very good positions. Would also be interesting to see what the split of shots is between defenders and midfield\forwards.
It's interesting how you interpret the evidence.
IMO a shot on target is a good outcome, so blocked shots are a positive, if it hadn't been blocked it would have been a goal.
We're not seeing a lot of out & out misses.
I've been saying for some time now, we need to pull defenders out of position, I believe VI sees Dike as a solution to that.
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So you judge a manager from the 1st game if we win that then that's the standard he has set?
Both extremes are as ridiculous as each other.
A manager is judged on any run of results and the subsequent effect on position.
Win regularly and avoid defeat, most will be happy
You can lose a few but, if you don't lose ground, you will be allowed more time to get it right.
If you lose games and lose ground you are on very thin ice.
Val is entering phase three.
He can definitely turn it round but we need to get points on the board regardless of Xg.
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Going backwards as we progress through the season. I don't compare us with teams from yesteryear as we don't have those players. It's why I don't put much stock in the "we're doing well because this is the worst squad we've had for 20 years" position. I compare our team against the rest of the Championship.
If we're to judge Val it should be on the progress he's made this year.
Six months ago we didn’t have any points on the board ! On a more serious matter if you are going to sack a manager every 6 months you are going nowhere and rather quickly. Deterioration in the season isn’t and will never be solely down to the manager / head coach . Loss of form , injuries , suspensions to different players all come into play in any season let alone one where Covid is still rife , how long does it take an athlete to fully get over a dose of that ?
Also progress isn’t just measured on the pitch , getting the likes of TGH on to a longer contract for example is progress compared to recent events so would you put that in the plus column ?
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Both extremes are as ridiculous as each other.
A manager is judged on any run of results and the subsequent effect on position.
Win regularly and avoid defeat, most will be happy
You can lose a few but, if you don't lose ground, you will be allowed more time to get it right.
If you lose games and lose ground you are on very thin ice.
Val is entering phase three.
He can definitely turn it round but we need to get points on the board regardless of Xg.
You know if fans picked managers most clubs would get through six a season, I'm not a great fan of Val but this club is crying out for stability and 6mths imo is not long enough to judge Val, he wasn't given any money to spend in the summer but we are in the top six .
We now sign Dike and had we been in the top two I have my doubts that signing would have been sanctioned.
So little support from the owner why would another manager fair any better without backing?
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You know if fans picked managers most clubs would get through six a season, I'm not a great fan of Val but this club is crying out for stability and 6mths imo is not long enough to judge Val, he wasn't given any money to spend in the summer but we are in the top six .
We now sign Dike and had we been in the top two I have my doubts that signing would have been sanctioned.
So little support from the owner why would another manager fair any better without backing?
I'd wager 99% of managers wouldn't be so rigid with there system and certain players , in that respect Vals hanging himself .
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So from our first 10 games we were unbeaten and accrued 22 points from 10 games. An average of 2.2 points per game will most certainly get you an automatic spot. From my memory of the posts on here it was happy days all round.
I recall very clearly that there were people here on Val's back then, despite us being unbeaten at the time. I recall contrasting that to the enduring support for Allardyce despite his utterly dismal record with us.
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I recall very clearly that there were people here on Val's back then, despite us being unbeaten at the time. I recall contrasting that to the enduring support for Allardyce despite his utterly dismal record with us.
I'm no Allardyce fan but comparing him and the hardest league going to a very weak 2nd tier with a bloke who had a full Pre season isnt going to look too good on Val right now .
Bottom line was quite a number of us realised teams were not going to let themselves be bullied from long throws and rugby scrum corners . When did that last work ....Bristol City at home was it ? , theres a few things that haven't evolved over time as we'd have liked and the above is one of them.
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Six months ago we didn’t have any points on the board ! On a more serious matter if you are going to sack a manager every 6 months you are going nowhere and rather quickly. Deterioration in the season isn’t and will never be solely down to the manager / head coach . Loss of form , injuries , suspensions to different players all come into play in any season let alone one where Covid is still rife , how long does it take an athlete to fully get over a dose of that ?
Also progress isn’t just measured on the pitch , getting the likes of TGH on to a longer contract for example is progress compared to recent events so would you put that in the plus column ?
We don't sack the manager every 6 months. The last one that we did was Pardew and I don't think anyone would argue with that, If anything it was too long! The one before that was Irvine. Again, little contest I would imagine.
Since Megson took over in 2000 we've had 13 full time managers at an average of 77 games each.
There is a lot of synergy between Moore's tenure and that of Val. He had a way of playing that started very well, but tailed off once "found out", he was bringing through youth and trying to ease the pathway from U23's. All of this whilst dividing the fan base due to style.
He was sacked after 18 points from 11 games after the turn of the year.
Managers get sacked on results, simple as that. Pulis, Moore and Bilic all fell for this reason, we may not agree with them but it's true. No manager gets sacked when things are going well.
It would, probably, be premature to sack Val now given the circumstances, but, he has to get results back on track or it will happen, the club will have no choice. Time is not on our side due to parachute payments.
There really is little hope of a genuine long term plan anyway, if he does well he gets poached, if he does rubbish he gets sacked. The only way he stays 4 years is if he remains incredibly mediocre.
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I should probably revert to the basic "he's rubbish"/"he's great" type posts, rather than wasting my time on anything more objective/analytical, as the latter just tend to get ignored or mocked so aren't worth the effort.
Don't think there's much need for the above , as Admin I believe theres been some very good debate and some very good points made by those for , unsure or against VI in this thread .To be fair you post those stats by your own choice we didn't ask you too , if the odd remark or reply upsets then you have your answer in all fairness .
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I'd wager 99% of managers wouldn't be so rigid with there system and certain players , in that respect Vals hanging himself .
We all want him to succeed because we support WBA FC but i don't hold much hope for the future with him in charge personally and when the day comes for him to fall on his sword he will not have anybody to blame but himself which is a sad thing.
Of course, i'm hoping i'm proved wrong massively.
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Of course they do.
Three years ago we drew Brighton in the cup. We went ahead but conceded due to a defensive mistake and lost in extra time. We started with two academy graduates and had a spine made up of Barts and Livermore.
Since then we've had FOUR managers offering different experience and playing styles, we've been promoted and relegated. We've seen good players leave, including our best player in a generation for next to nothing, but spent £35 ish million on forwards.
On Saturday We played Brighton in the cup. We went ahead but conceded due to a defensive mistake and lost in extra time. We started with two academy graduates and had a spine made up of Barts and Livermore.
It all comes down to player quality. The 2019 squad had JRod, Gayle, Barnes (for half season!), Gibbs, Hegazi, Dawson but got knocked out the cup and failed to get promoted. I'm not sure we have upgraded on any of those players to leave? (I'm not considering DD until he plays). So we are pretty much where we were in 2019, but i would argue with a marginally poorer squad.
Billic DID succeed but had Perreira who was a difference player at this level and £12m Grady for half a season. Arguably if Harvey Barnes hadn't been recalled Big Dave may have been promoted himself in 2019 as he was the difference player in that team. We can only hope that the signing of Dike provides the difference this year between success and failure.
However, what I also think this suggests is the revolving door for managers has not really improved our overall position. Its our recruitment of players that needs to improve but our budget is limited. The club are hoping that Vals more statistical based footballing methodology and recruitment will be part of finding a solution to that particular issue. Time will tell.
Sorry mate missed this post.
Of course i agree with what you said. The problems in the club come from above manager level and i hate chopping and changing managers as much as the next one. However despite saying that i don't think we should stick with what, currently, seems a less than great appointment for 4 years just because we gave him a 4 year contract.
I do completely agree those in charge need to pay attention and care as to what's happening here, especially in terms of managerial appointments.
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We all want him to succeed because we support WBA FC but i don't hold much hope for the future with him in charge personally and when the day comes for him to fall on his sword he will not have anybody to blame but himself which is a sad thing.
Of course, i'm hoping i'm proved wrong massively.
Agreed , I quite enjoy his build up all week .
Everything sounds and looks like going in the right direction but then we get to matchday / groundhog day and little changes . Feel for Dike already with this much pressure on him.
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Someone here posted a pass completion rate of 67%, which was the third WORST in the division. For a team supposed to be challenging for promotion, it's an appalling statistic.
Up till now we simply haven't possessed the quality in central midfield. This is alien to every WBA fan who has watched us in the last 20 years.
We do have the personnel to up that statistic to mid 70s in %, however, we have a Manager who is oblivious to this particular problem.
Gardner-Hickman has proved he's got the quality in central midfield and I seem to recall Mowatt doing an excellent job in the opening 12 games or so.
Dike will help but we can actually transform our performances and points haul by applying the correct changes in midfield.
If the Manager continues to rest on his laurels, I see us finishing comfortably outside of the top 6.
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Would be interesting to see the pass completion rate of the defence as my gut feeling is that drags us down a fair bit.
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I just posted in the TGH thread about the system Val wants being about keeping the ball moving quickly... preferably forward. Quick attacks whether that's long balls or more passes. It's inevitable that with that style more passes will go astray when compared to more possession based teams who keep the ball and build attacks more slowly.
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I just posted in the TGH thread about the system Val wants being about keeping the ball moving quickly... preferably forward. Quick attacks whether that's long balls or more passes. It's inevitable that with that style more passes will go astray when compared to more possession based teams who keep the ball and build attacks more slowly.
That's true.
Some teams play out from the back far more than we do so unless they are awful at it their passing stats should be much better than ours.
There are some stats that are more relevant than others. Passing stats are not really something I personally pay much attention to because different teams play different ways.
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Agreed , I quite enjoy his build up all week .
Everything sounds and looks like going in the right direction but then we get to matchday / groundhog day and little changes . Feel for Dike already with this much pressure on him.
Yes i agree, VI talks a very good game but his actions usually betray his words.
Now we have Dike let's hope for a big improvement. I think most people will be wise enough to NOT blame Dike for any other failings.
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I recall very clearly that there were people here on Val's back then, despite us being unbeaten at the time. I recall contrasting that to the enduring support for Allardyce despite his utterly dismal record with us.
Amended just for you Worcs. You are right, there were a few mumblings early doors.
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Someone here posted a pass completion rate of 67%, which was the third WORST in the division. For a team supposed to be challenging for promotion, it's an appalling statistic.
Up till now we simply haven't possessed the quality in central midfield. This is alien to every WBA fan who has watched us in the last 20 years.
We do have the personnel to up that statistic to mid 70s in %, however, we have a Manager who is oblivious to this particular problem.
Gardner-Hickman has proved he's got the quality in central midfield and I seem to recall Mowatt doing an excellent job in the opening 12 games or so.
Dike will help but we can actually transform our performances and points haul by applying the correct changes in midfield.
If the Manager continues to rest on his laurels, I see us finishing comfortably outside of the top 6.
Not sure why it's a problem.
Even with our mis-firing forwards we're =7th on goals scored.
Blackburn are 2nd on goals scored with a pass percentage of 68.8%
We're 2nd to Fulham on shots per goal
We're 3rd behind Fulham & QPR on shots on target per goal.
All on here
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022 (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/8619/Stages/19794/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2021-2022)
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I'm no Allardyce fan but comparing him and the hardest league going to a very weak 2nd tier with a bloke who had a full Pre season isnt going to look too good on Val right now .
Bottom line was quite a number of us realised teams were not going to let themselves be bullied from long throws and rugby scrum corners . When did that last work ....Bristol City at home was it ? , theres a few things that haven't evolved over time as we'd have liked and the above is one of them.
You can compare to a degree yes SA was in a harder League but he had better players to negate that ! Whichever way you dress it up our results under SA were in the main poor
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You can compare to a degree yes SA was in a harder League but he had better players to negate that ! Whichever way you dress it up our results under SA were in the main poor
Wouldn't ever deny that , didnt want him from day one.
I do believe comparing SA and VI with Premier and a cash hit 2nd Tier is fruitless though mate .
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I’m impressed with the huge support Val gets on here, for me he’s awful and not what we need but my god I hope he proves me wrong. So far I’ve seen nothing to suggest he’s going to take us to promotion and that is all that matters.
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I’m impressed with the huge support Val gets on here, for me he’s awful and not what we need but my god I hope he proves me wrong. So far I’ve seen nothing to suggest he’s going to take us to promotion and that is all that matters.
No it really isn't, not this season anyway. We are building a side for the future and tbh if we go up this season we won't be in any fit shape to compete next season, and we don't have the finances to buy the players that would ensure our survival. Judge him this time next year, which I'm convinced is the very earliest that the club would even consider parting ways with him
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No it really isn't, not this season anyway. We are building a side for the future and tbh if we go up this season we won't be in any fit shape to compete next season, and we don't have the finances to buy the players that would ensure our survival. Judge him this time next year, which I'm convinced is the very earliest that the club would even consider parting ways with him
The league is too easy to miss a chance like this.
Next year we won’t be in the top 5 candidates.
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The league is too easy to miss a chance like this.
Next year we won’t be in the top 5 candidates.
Wow, I don't even know what's going to happen Saturday never mind 18mths from now!
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No it really isn't, not this season anyway. We are building a side for the future and tbh if we go up this season we won't be in any fit shape to compete next season, and we don't have the finances to buy the players that would ensure our survival. Judge him this time next year, which I'm convinced is the very earliest that the club would even consider parting ways with him
How are we building a side for the future? Genuine question. We have no money too buy players, the kids we have ain't ready the older players are bang average and we have bought one player, and i bet we don't buy anymore in January. We will end up with loan players who nobody else wants, so i ask again how are we building a side for the future?
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How are we building a side for the future? Genuine question. We have no money too buy players, the kids we have ain't ready the older players are bang average and we have bought one player, and i bet we don't buy anymore in January. We will end up with loan players who nobody else wants, so i ask again how are we building a side for the future?
agreed Keith, well said
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How are we building a side for the future? Genuine question. We have no money too buy players, the kids we have ain't ready the older players are bang average and we have bought one player, and i bet we don't buy anymore in January. We will end up with loan players who nobody else wants, so i ask again how are we building a side for the future?
It appears we are buying young players with potential, not old farts that we can't move on and paying more attention to our academy that's building a team for the future nobody said they would be European Champions.
The benefits from this strategy won't happen overnight this won't please fans who want instant results but it's better than buying stopgap players which we have done for many years .
All the other stuff you have mentioned is what it is we are a club that will never spend big so to get any modicum of success we need to produce our own star players.
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It appears we are buying young players with potential, not old farts that we can't move on and paying more attention to our academy that's building a team for the future nobody said they would be European Champions.
All the other stuff you have mentioned is what it is we are a club that will never spend big so to get any modicum of success we need to produce our own star players.
All sounds great and I agree it's probably the only way we can stay afloat with our budget, but, with the way Val plays, which is ver one-dimesional, we will undoubtedly be looking at certain types of player which could affect their sell on value and, when the inevitable happens and Val moves on, we will be left with a rather niche bunch. A bit like post Pulis.
It's also becomes a much harder strategy in the Prem, because these young, wonder players will be on the radar of clubs with much more money, so not sure how we would compete.
No strategy is either guaranteed or without risk for a club like us so I guess time will tell.
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How are we building a side for the future? Genuine question. We have no money too buy players, the kids we have ain't ready the older players are bang average and we have bought one player, and i bet we don't buy anymore in January. We will end up with loan players who nobody else wants, so i ask again how are we building a side for the future?
The point is we are in a transitional state. It's an ongoing process that Ismael has already stated would take around 4 transfer windows.
We have improved the squad in this window. We have given some U23's a chance and next season I'm sure they will get more game time(if they do well enough) and we will see other players promoted from U23 level who maybe aren't quite ready this season.
Livermore is out of contract at the end of the season and I've no doubt will be replaced with younger and better. Hopefully we'll see the back of Zohore and Snodgrass too.
Personally I hope we don't get promoted this season as apart from the money it brings, we won't benefit in any other way. There's no joy for me in not being able to compete at a higher level.
A couple of season's in the Championship building a side that could compete at a higher level is surely worth a try?
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All sounds great and I agree it's probably the only way we can stay afloat with our budget, but, with the way Val plays, which is ver one-dimesional, we will undoubtedly be looking at certain types of player which could affect their sell on value and, when the inevitable happens and Val moves on, we will be left with a rather niche bunch. A bit like post Pulis.
It's also becomes a much harder strategy in the Prem, because these young, wonder players will be on the radar of clubs with much more money, so not sure how we would compete.
No strategy is either guaranteed or without risk for a club like us so I guess time will tell.
No guarantees but it seems the only way forward for a club like Albion, its worked for us in the past.
The main problem today which you touched on any player doing really well will be sought by Premier League clubs nothing you can do about that but spend wisely with the income.
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How are we building a side for the future? Genuine question. We have no money too buy players, the kids we have ain't ready the older players are bang average and we have bought one player, and i bet we don't buy anymore in January. We will end up with loan players who nobody else wants, so i ask again how are we building a side for the future?
Devils advocate again 😁
We have just spent £7million, yes £7million, on a 21 year old international striker who has scored goals at every level he has played at including the champion ship. How is this NOT building a side for the future?
We have unearthed two players from the academy who will be first team regulars as long as they are with us in Dara and TGH. Val has stated he wants to create a pathway from the academy to first team, part of which is having all age groups playing the sane system. Again......
Val has criticised our past recruitment in signing mediocre and experienced pros just because they are available. He has stated we should be looking for players who can be developed into capital assets. We know he is very keen on using a statistical approach to recruitment. Again....
THIS is how we are planning to build a side for the future. We can't compete financially so this is an alternative plan. It might turn to utter sh*he, he may be shown to have a great philosophy but turn out to be a poor and one dimensional coach. But there is a plan.
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I've been quite 'vocal' on here in my support of VI and I like what he says, but one swallow doesn't make a summer and all that. Incidentally, Dike is the youngest player we have signed permanently in nearly 5 years (since Burke).
We need to see more before we can claim as a club we are trying to building for the future, anymore so than any club with an academy is.
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The point is we are in a transitional state. It's an ongoing process that Ismael has already stated would take around 4 transfer windows.
We have improved the squad in this window. We have given some U23's a chance and next season I'm sure they will get more game time(if they do well enough) and we will see other players promoted from U23 level who maybe aren't quite ready this season.
Livermore is out of contract at the end of the season and I've no doubt will be replaced with younger and better. Hopefully we'll see the back of Zohore and Snodgrass too.
Personally I hope we don't get promoted this season as apart from the money it brings, we won't benefit in any other way. There's no joy for me in not being able to compete at a higher level.
A couple of season's in the Championship building a side that could compete at a higher level is surely worth a try?
This, in my opinion is exactly correct, although I'm not 100% convinced that we won't offer Livermore an extended contract as we did (inexplicably) with Phillips.
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Devils advocate again 😁
We have just spent £7million, yes £7million, on a 21 year old international striker who has scored goals at every level he has played at including the champion ship. How is this NOT building a side for the future?
We have unearthed two players from the academy who will be first team regulars as long as they are with us in Dara and TGH. Val has stated he wants to create a pathway from the academy to first team, part of which is having all age groups playing the sane system. Again......
Val has criticised our past recruitment in signing mediocre and experienced pros just because they are available. He has stated we should be looking for players who can be developed into capital assets. We know he is very keen on using a statistical approach to recruitment. Again....
THIS is how we are planning to build a side for the future. We can't compete financially so this is an alternative plan. It might turn to utter sh*he, he may be shown to have a great philosophy but turn out to be a poor and one dimensional coach. But there is a plan.
I don't think you are playing devil's advocate at all - just stating it as it is. People have to be patient and get out of the mindset that we have to get promoted this season or the manager has to go.
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Devils advocate again 😁
We have just spent £7million, yes £7million, on a 21 year old international striker who has scored goals at every level he has played at including the champion ship. How is this NOT building a side for the future?
We have unearthed two players from the academy who will be first team regulars as long as they are with us in Dara and TGH. Val has stated he wants to create a pathway from the academy to first team, part of which is having all age groups playing the sane system. Again......
Val has criticised our past recruitment in signing mediocre and experienced pros just because they are available. He has stated we should be looking for players who can be developed into capital assets. We know he is very keen on using a statistical approach to recruitment. Again....
THIS is how we are planning to build a side for the future. We can't compete financially so this is an alternative plan. It might turn to utter sh*he, he may be shown to have a great philosophy but turn out to be a poor and one dimensional coach. But there is a plan.
An excellent post in my view. There absolutely is a strategy for a change. And the only way to test its effectiveness is to give the owners of the plan time to execute it. He has a 4 year contract. My view is that he should be given half of that at which point progress can be assessed. If it isn't working then that would be the time to act.
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I've been quite 'vocal' on here in my support of VI and I like what he says, but one swallow doesn't make a summer and all that. Incidentally, Dike is the youngest player we have signed permanently in nearly 5 years (since Burke).
We need to see more before we can claim as a club we are trying to building for the future, anymore so than any club with an academy is.
Totally agree on the one swallow analogy but further incoming will be reliant on wages being shifted on. I actually think we have pushed the boat out as a club to get Dike, as we allready have Zohore and Hugil as CF's earning significant salaries. Just because they (Zohore) are invisible, doesn't mean the wages dissapear. I understand that he's on 20k plus so £1 million a year BUT even if that is wrong and he's been flexed down to 10k it's still half a million a year. It's a lot of money to right off and replace. What's really painful is that he's here untill summer 23, so we are handicapped going into the NEXT window unless we can get rid.
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An excellent post in my view. There absolutely is a strategy for a change. And the only way to test its effectiveness is to give the owners of the plan time to execute it. He has a 4 year contract. My view is that he should be given half of that at which point progress can be assessed. If it isn't working then that would be the time to act.
Give a manager with 1 year's experience in England and a very rigid game plan two years regardless of results?
Does that mean the rest of the season and our eventual finishing position is irrelevant?
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Give a manager with 1 year's experience in England and a very rigid game plan two years regardless of results?
Does that mean the rest of the season and our eventual finishing position is irrelevant?
I wouldn't say it's irrelevant but I don't think it's as critical this season as some people do.
Sometimes it takes a while to implement what you want when you're in transition. Chris Wilder didn't get Sheff Utd promoted at his first attempt from memory. Dean Smith needed a play off final to get that incredibly jammy load of people promoted at his first attempt as well. Bielsa didn't get Leeds promoted at his first attempt either. Just a few examples of where it can take a bit of time and patience.
Next season we need to go up. I don't think it's that critical this season and VI should be given ample time to implement his philosophy and get the players in to do that.
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Give a manager with 1 year's experience in England and a very rigid game plan two years regardless of results?
Does that mean the rest of the season and our eventual finishing position is irrelevant?
In relation to your first question, the answer is yes (unless results are dire, which they aren't). That's the plan.
In relation to your second question, the answer is pretty much yes as well, whether we like it or not. I mean, not entirely irrelevant, but I think everyone at the club seems to be signed up to the idea that it is going to take time and that this season will be very much of a transitional period. As others have said, the end of next season will be the time to assess progress and take stock.
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Give a manager with 1 year's experience in England and a very rigid game plan two years regardless of results?
Does that mean the rest of the season and our eventual finishing position is irrelevant?
I don't think it does.
VI has provided evidence to the board, that we're doing most things right, but need a goalscorer to complete the picture.
Not only that, but he has nominated & got the player that can fulfil that role.
The ball is well & truly in VI's court now, he has to demonstrate some improvement.
IMO, that leaves 3 scenarios
1 - we progress & get promoted - VI keeps his job
2 - we progress but just fail - VI probably keeps his job
3 - we fail badly - bye bye VI
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There is no chance VI has enough rope that results won't matter, and if the next 10 are like that last 10 I think he could be sacked. The noise from the crowd will be too much and we would likely be outside the play offs.
As it happens, the Bournmouth game being moved may have done VI a favour too. Sheffield United, Bournmouth and Blackburn consecutively could have been fatal if we don't pick up at least 7 points in the next four games before then. 7 Points in the next four is probably not good enough, but less and I think the ice will be very thin.
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An excellent post in my view. There absolutely is a strategy for a change. And the only way to test its effectiveness is to give the owners of the plan time to execute it. He has a 4 year contract. My view is that he should be given half of that at which point progress can be assessed. If it isn't working then that would be the time to act.
Sounds a bit like burying your head in the sand to me. Results DO matter. I absolutely hope we do not go down this route.
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There is no chance VI has enough rope that results won't matter, and if the next 10 are like that last 10 I think he could be sacked. The noise from the crowd will be too much and we would likely be outside the play offs.
As it happens, the Bournmouth game being moved may have done VI a favour too. Sheffield United, Bournmouth and Blackburn consecutively could have been fatal if we don't pick up at least 7 points in the next four games before then. 7 Points in the next four is probably not good enough, but less and I think the ice will be very thin.
It's all supposition but if we got 14 points from the next 10 games there is absolutely zero chance of VI getting sacked. Just ain't going to happen.
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Two things will matter , empty stands and results .
With respect to this level of football we should be looking for results AND decent performances especially now VI has his man .We slip out the top 6 it becomes a different ball game for VI IMO and I don't think Ken and co would hand out a 4 year deal without some sort of break in it .
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I'm not trying to be deliberately argumentative and rude to anybody who believes we should be getting rid of VI but hand on heart honestly. Do so many of our fans arrogantly believe we have a squad that's in the best two in this division? Because that view absolutely flabbergasts me. I try my best to be reasoned and understand peoples frustrations, none of us always get it right but it's astonishing to me.
Many on here think SJ is pants, I couldn't disagree more, but he's the only one of our squad I think anybody would actually go for in a higher position than we currently are.
We also lost Perreira who was by some country mile our best player, we then lost Dara O'Shea a pretty much starter in the team, Ajayi is now gone for a few months, we've had many injuries. Snodgrass may as well not be here he's injured so often and Diangana honestly looks like a pub player these days he's completely lost interest in football. VI had to put on a few kids pretty much making their first team debut against a top 10 premier league side the weekend because of how thin our squad is.
We've still kept ourselves in touching distance of the top 2 having occupied a spot there some of the season, our defensive record is fantastic, the stats show we're creating lots of opportunities but lacking someone to put them away. He's been given a chance to identify someone for that problem, we've brought them in and time will tell if it works. In the meantime, I guarantee now the fans of many of the other clubs near the top of the Championship would laugh their heads off at the arrogance of our fanbase bemoaning our manager for not topping the league with our apparent squad of world beaters that nobody else would want.
I remember not too long ago people saying our fans were unfair for being unhappy at Darren Moore who had us 4th and a few points away from dropping out the playoffs. For reference that squad had:
- Harvey Barnes for half the season which was like Messi playing in a local 5-a-side team
- Dwight Gayle
- Jay Rodridguez
- Mason Holgate
- Craig Dawson
- Hegazy
-Kieran Gibbs
-James Morrison
-Chris Brunt
- Jacob Murphy
Quite a good few of them would walk into this side and I bet VI would love to have that level of squad at his disposal, not to mention a few of our starters currently with a few less years in them that were at the club.
I don't know what I'm missing here, but on the face of it. I see no reason whatsoever with this squad that we have that we should complain about where we find ourselves.
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Two things will matter , empty stands and results .
With respect to this level of football we should be looking for results AND decent performances especially now VI has his man .We slip out the top 6 it becomes a different ball game for VI IMO and I don't think Ken and co would hand out a 4 year deal without some sort of break in it .
Who knows, but even if you're right, the break won't be before the 2 year mark. That's when the board will judge him and that's when we should.
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It's all supposition but if we got 14 points from the next 10 games there is absolutely zero chance of VI getting sacked. Just ain't going to happen.
It is, and I dont think he will be. However if we lose 4/5 in the next 10, we are outside the play offs and the calls to sack him are deafening. Big Dave got sacked in 4th. If we are 7th or 8th with 10 games to save the season, I wouldnt rule it out.
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Without quoting your whole post LC Butler this squad is no worse than 2nd with Dike IMO. Personally I think Fulham have the best squad.
Equally Darren Moore finishing 4th with that squad was an absolute travesty. He should have been sacked earlier. We gave him too much time because he was liked at the club but end of the day he's just not a very good manager and i like DM personally from how he comes across and as a player for us. A good manager though? Not for me.
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I'm not trying to be deliberately argumentative and rude to anybody who believes we should be getting rid of VI but hand on heart honestly. Do so many of our fans arrogantly believe we have a squad that's in the best two in this division? Because that view absolutely flabbergasts me. I try my best to be reasoned and understand peoples frustrations, none of us always get it right but it's astonishing to me.
Many on here think SJ is pants, I couldn't disagree more, but he's the only one of our squad I think anybody would actually go for in a higher position than we currently are.
We also lost Perreira who was by some country mile our best player, we then lost Dara O'Shea a pretty much starter in the team, Ajayi is now gone for a few months, we've had many injuries. Snodgrass may as well not be here he's injured so often and Diangana honestly looks like a pub player these days he's completely lost interest in football. VI had to put on a few kids pretty much making their first team debut against a top 10 premier league side the weekend because of how thin our squad is.
We've still kept ourselves in touching distance of the top 2 having occupied a spot there some of the season, our defensive record is fantastic, the stats show we're creating lots of opportunities but lacking someone to put them away. He's been given a chance to identify someone for that problem, we've brought them in and time will tell if it works. In the meantime, I guarantee now the fans of many of the other clubs near the top of the Championship would laugh their heads off at the arrogance of our fanbase bemoaning our manager for not topping the league with our apparent squad of world beaters that nobody else would want.
I remember not too long ago people saying our fans were unfair for being unhappy at Darren Moore who had us 4th and a few points away from dropping out the playoffs. For reference that squad had:
- Harvey Barnes for half the season which was like Messi playing in a local 5-a-side team
- Dwight Gayle
- Jay Rodridguez
- Mason Holgate
- Craig Dawson
- Hegazy
-Kieran Gibbs
-James Morrison
-Chris Brunt
- Jacob Murphy
Quite a good few of them would walk into this side and I bet VI would love to have that level of squad at his disposal, not to mention a few of our starters currently with a few less years in them that were at the club.
I don't know what I'm missing here, but on the face of it. I see no reason whatsoever with this squad that we have that we should complain about where we find ourselves.
More than spot on. Like you, I'm amazed at how highly some of our fans rate this squad.
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Well Dike will need at least a few more weeks to get fit and firing on all cylinders which will mean he's avilable and match fit probably for 17 games in a 46 game season.
I don't profess to have an in-depth knowledge of every Championship squad there is, all I can see is that this team of players we have is much poorer than it's been in a very long time. For me since the Mowbray era really. There's a huge lack of experience and quality and when I looked at it objectively at the start of the season I thought the playoffs would be a good result.
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What was said though was "two years and then assess", that means we could lose every game from now until May and it's still ok because we are in transition.
I know that's extreme but it is the fundamental flaw with the long term project angle.
If, at any point during the "project" we go on a catastrophic run he would be gone, so, the question is what defines catastrophic and, at what point during the project do we act to try and salvage the season.
As an example, the next 10 games follow the pattern of the last 10, despite Dike, and we are out of the play offs but, not mathematically out of contention. Do we persevere with the project or do we act to try and get into the top 6?
People criticise the club for keep changing managers and say we need a long term strategy, but, no-one has yet managed to offer up a coach who was sacked whilst doing well. Val will get sacked based on results, the same as all the others, so, as John says, the ball is well and truly in his court.
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Spot on Seteefeet. We haven't sacked any winners. We've sacked poor performers and some bad choice appointments as well.
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What was said though was "two years and then assess", that means we could lose every game from now until May and it's still ok because we are in transition.
I know that's extreme but it is the fundamental flaw with the long term project angle.
If, at any point during the "project" we go on a catastrophic run he would be gone, so, the question is what defines catastrophic and, at what point during the project do we act to try and salvage the season.
As an example, the next 10 games follow the pattern of the last 10, despite Dike, and we are out of the play offs but, not mathematically out of contention. Do we persevere with the project or do we act to try and get into the top 6?
People criticise the club for keep changing managers and say we need a long term strategy, but, no-one has yet managed to offer up a coach who was sacked whilst doing well. Val will get sacked based on results, the same as all the others, so, as John says, the ball is well and truly in his court.
We persevere with the project
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Well Dike will need at least a few more weeks to get fit and firing on all cylinders which will mean he's avilable and match fit probably for 17 games in a 46 game season.
I don't profess to have an in-depth knowledge of every Championship squad there is, all I can see is that this team of players we have is much poorer than it's been in a very long time. For me since the Mowbray era really. There's a huge lack of experience and quality and when I looked at it objectively at the start of the season I thought the playoffs would be a good result.
He last played in November, he'll be fit enough to make a contribution this weekend.
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Give a manager with 1 year's experience in England and a very rigid game plan two years regardless of results?
Does that mean the rest of the season and our eventual finishing position is irrelevant?
Not at all barring injuries which we have had more than our share this season I expect to see an improvement in results and performance, but as others have said I'm not sure promotion is everything another season at this level would help the young kids develop.
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Well Dike will need at least a few more weeks to get fit and firing on all cylinders which will mean he's avilable and match fit probably for 17 games in a 46 game season.
I don't profess to have an in-depth knowledge of every Championship squad there is, all I can see is that this team of players we have is much poorer than it's been in a very long time. For me since the Mowbray era really. There's a huge lack of experience and quality and when I looked at it objectively at the start of the season I thought the playoffs would be a good result.
Ok, turn it on it's head and ask yourself how bad this squad is, not in comparison to previous years as that is fruitless, but compared to the rest of the league and then say what is the worst you would accept this season?
7th, 10th, 15th, 20th
Whatever it is then that is your bar, others may simply have a higher or lower bar.
Personally, I said, at the start of the season, that top 2 was achievable and top 6 nailed on and have pretty much stuck to that. I am, however, starting to get a bit nervous that top 6 is under threat and we / he needs to act fast. The same players were very good at the start of the season, but, for whatever reason, we have faded. It's Val's job to address that and steady the ship. If he does he stays, if he doesn't he goes.
If we improve from here on in and, comfortably, secure a play off place he deserves a crack at next season regardless of division. If he doesn't we need to look towards the next "project" with someone new.
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What was said though was "two years and then assess", that means we could lose every game from now until May and it's still ok because we are in transition.
I know that's extreme but it is the fundamental flaw with the long term project angle.
If, at any point during the "project" we go on a catastrophic run he would be gone, so, the question is what defines catastrophic and, at what point during the project do we act to try and salvage the season.
As an example, the next 10 games follow the pattern of the last 10, despite Dike, and we are out of the play offs but, not mathematically out of contention. Do we persevere with the project or do we act to try and get into the top 6?
People criticise the club for keep changing managers and say we need a long term strategy, but, no-one has yet managed to offer up a coach who was sacked whilst doing well. Val will get sacked based on results, the same as all the others, so, as John says, the ball is well and truly in his court.
I believe the owners will persevere! The reasoning behind this is the Big Sam **** show. The man who had NEVER been relegated, the cast iron certainty (Not to the fans). The owners made the change, paid the compo, funded the new players and the end result? The same as if they'd kept Billic on. I think that experience has shaped the current longer term strategy.
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It's not that this squad is so great, i agree, it is not. It is better than the vast majority of teams in this league by some distance however.
Once Peterbrough sussed Valball out our results and performances are worthy of any manager being sacked.
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It's not that this squad is so great, i agree, it is not. It is better than the vast majority of teams in this league by some distance however.
Once Peterbrough sussed Valball out our results and performances are worthy of any manager being sacked.
If we have been sussed out since August can you care to explain why 19 sides are below us in the table and only 3 above; or why not a single side of all these sides that has sussed us out has managed to claim a win at the Hawthorns? What I have sussed out is that a substantial number of our fans are living in la la land with overboard comments that bear no relationship to the season.
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It's not that this squad is so great, i agree, it is not. It is better than the vast majority of teams in this league by some distance however.
Once Peterbrough sussed Valball out our results and performances are worthy of any manager being sacked.
Exactly this. It's no good comparing us to previous years, we're playing in this league, with these players, against that opposition.
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It's not that this squad is so great, i agree, it is not. It is better than the vast majority of teams in this league by some distance however.
Once Peterbrough sussed Valball out our results and performances are worthy of any manager being sacked.
Better than the vast majority yes. Better than Bournemouth and Fulham? I would say no. Better than Blackburn? Possibly but they have found a 30 goal a season striker from out of no where (Well he cost plucky little Blackburn £7m three years ago but you know what I mean) which has sparked their season. They are the only teams above us at the half way stage and all of those have had inconsistent form themselves and may do again. So, you might dislike much about him and his football but as much as teams might have frustrated us across that period only Fulham have outplayed us. I think he needs to be given the season, and think he will be. .
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If we have been sussed out since August can you care to explain why 19 sides are below us in the table and only 3 above; or why not a single side of all these sides that has sussed us out has managed to claim a win at the Hawthorns? What I have sussed out is that a substantial number of our fans are living in la la land with overboard comments that bear no relationship to the season.
Because of the good start we had under VI. I didn't like Valball even when we were winning but i didn't care because it was brutally effective and produced good results. It got sussed many months ago however, which wasn't a cause for concern in itself, what is the cause for concern is that VI cannot do anything else about it because he's a limited manager.
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If we have been sussed out since August can you care to explain why 19 sides are below us in the table and only 3 above; or why not a single side of all these sides that has sussed us out has managed to claim a win at the Hawthorns? What I have sussed out is that a substantial number of our fans are living in la la land with overboard comments that bear no relationship to the season.
How many sides have to be below us before action is taken then? Genuine question, simple answer please, if you could do it without insulting other members opinions, that would be great.
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Better than the vast majority yes. Better than Bournemouth and Fulham? I would say no. Better than Blackburn? Possibly but they have found a 30 goal a season striker from out of no where (Well he cost plucky little Blackburn £7m three years ago but you know what I mean) which has sparked their season. They are the only teams above us at the half way stage and all of those have had inconsistent form themselves and may do again. So, you might dislike much about him and his football but teams might have frustrated us across that period but only Fulham have outplayed us. I think he needs to be given the season, and think he will be. .
I'd say we are on a par with Bournemouth. Worse than Fulham. Better than Blackburn and everyone else.
We are where we are because of a very good start. Count the points after Peterborough and i believe we are mid-table in a league where 21 teams are inferior to us. That is poor.
We got 13pts from our first 5 games and 29 from the 20 after Peterborough. So for me thats a 1.45 PPG average since VI got countered.
We would expect around 66pts from VI a season as things stand which is usually 9th/10th place which at this level is unacceptable when you look at the players we have compared to the players we are playing against. A massive underachievement.
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In reply to Lara Croft , that list of players contains some players better than what we have but also a fair few that don't suit Valball too . Brunt wouldn't fit in unless put at wingback as an example.
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Who knows, but even if you're right, the break won't be before the 2 year mark. That's when the board will judge him and that's when we should.
Why wont it be ? , could be a end of season review for both parties .
If we fall out the playoffs , the general football doesn't improve and people continue to vote with their feet Val will more than likely be gone . Lets hope it doesnt get to that.
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In reply to Lara Croft , that list of players contains some players better than what we have but also a fair few that don't suit Valball too . Brunt wouldn't fit in unless put at wingback as an example.
Forget the long list of players. If you put Barnes - Rodriguez - Gayle as the front three in our current set up we'd be top of the league. The attacking talent Moore and Bilic both had dug them out of a lot of holes. It's a luxury we now don't have, unless Dike really hits the ground running.
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Forget the long list of players. If you put Barnes - Rodriguez - Gayle as the front three in our current set up we'd be top of the league. The attacking talent Moore and Bilic both had dug them out of a lot of holes. It's a luxury we now don't have, unless Dike really hits the ground running.
Only J Rod would sort of fit now , agreed on Dike .
Feel for him already to be honest , huge pressure.
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Only J Rod would sort of fit now , agreed on Dike .
Feel for him already to be honest , huge pressure.
I think we could put up with Barnes playing on the left of the three or the right for that matter.
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I think we could put up with Barnes playing on the left of the three or the right for that matter.
He takes players on , we don't do that ;D .
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Only J Rod would sort of fit now , agreed on Dike .
Feel for him already to be honest , huge pressure.
Just looking at some of the players we've had, who allegedly wouldn't fit Val's style, should set alarm bells ringing.
Don't get me wrong, the, in your face, high intensity football we started the season with, I loved, but it does make transfer windows more difficult.
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Cannot believe that after half a league season in which time we lost what 5 games ? people want to change the coach/manager! I can understand people may not like his style but just don’t get the point of changing when any new bloke would have next to no chance of bringing in his own players . Our best chance of promotion via any means is with VI in charge whether the Val out merchants like it or not .
I still don’t accept this squad is as good as many on here make out , certainly no better than either of the top 2 nor in my opinion is the squad as a whole as good as Stoke , or any better than Sheffield Utd , QPR , or Forest may well add Middlesboro to that list by Feb 1st . Add in Blackburn and with ourselves that makes 9 teams so 3 are going to be disappointed come seasons end.
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Only J Rod would sort of fit now , agreed on Dike .
Feel for him already to be honest , huge pressure.
Barnes would fit easily. In fact, he'd easily be out performing Grant for Goals and Assists in my opinion.
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Barnes would fit easily. In fact, he'd easily be out performing Grant for Goals and Assists in my opinion.
Absolutely he would.
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The more I think about it, I can’t think of a wba player over the past 10 years that I’d rather drop in VI’s system than Barnes.
Apart from Lukaku.
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Barnes would fit easily. In fact, he'd easily be out performing Grant for Goals and Assists in my opinion.
If we play on the floor like against Coventry or Reading I'd agree , if we are rocketing balls from the back I'm not so sure . Right or wrongly we don't create much from CM under Val , our two main tactics are set pieces and swinging crosses in . That has to improve whether fans are Val in or Val out ( or Val curious ;D ) . The current forwards are limited but they don't get huge amounts of clear chances .
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If we play on the floor like against Coventry or Reading I'd agree , if we are rocketing balls from the back I'm not so sure . Right or wrongly we don't create much from CM under Val , our two main tactics are set pieces and swinging crosses in . That has to improve whether fans are Val in or Val out ( or Val curious ;D ) . The current forwards are limited but they don't get huge amounts of clear chances .
The front three get plenty of the ball and get it early. I think barnes would thrive. He’d burst past his markers in a way that other forwards are unable to and that would create better chances.
I think he’d be perfect. Let’s face it, he’s a player who’d go for £40m tomorrow if put up for sale though. I’ve long thought Liverpool could be a great place for him.
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The more I think about it, I can’t think of a wba player over the past 10 years that I’d rather drop in VI’s system than Barnes.
Apart from Lukaku.
Theres times I watch them and I think go on take them on about 25 yards out , too many times we check back and cross instead . Whether thats confidence or Vals orders I don't know , we do lack someone prompting from the middle though or a goal scoring CM .
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The front three get plenty of the ball and get it early. I think barnes would thrive. He’d burst past his markers in a way that other forwards are unable to and that would create better chances.
I think he’d be perfect. Let’s face it, he’s a player who’d go for £40m tomorrow if put up for sale though. I’ve long thought Liverpool could be a great place for him.
He's a class act thats true , makes you realise how we've dropped in standards .Not sure Barnes would do much with lofted balls from 50 yards though .
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Theres times I watch them and I think go on take them on about 25 yards out , too many times we check back and cross instead . Whether thats confidence or Vals orders I don't know , we do lack someone prompting from the middle though or a goal scoring CM .
I think it’s part confidence, but I also don’t think Either Grant or Robinson are that quick and I think when there is space behind they are reluctant because they know they’ll be caught. Diangana should be beating his man and breaking lines more but is struggling so badly he’s just not got it in him right now.
I think VI would encourage it as it’s direct, we may see Dike Knock it past and run more .
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Barnes is a very good player . Very good players can adapt to any system , they may not be quite as effective in some but they would still be very good !
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It's not just the forwards though is it?
Dorrans 21 goals in 09/10. How many did Gera, Koumas, Koren, Pereira notch in Championship campaigns?
Mowatt has got 3 goals, Livermore is on 0.
We are utilising a non-scoring midfield.
It's embarrassing.
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It's not just the forwards though is it?
Dorrans 21 goals in 09/10. How many did Gera, Koumas, Koren, Pereira notch in Championship campaigns?
Mowatt has got 3 goals, Livermore is on 0.
We are utilising a non-scoring midfield.
It's embarrassing.
It’s not just goals, they create very little in the way of ‘good’ chances for the forwards.
Hence why I don’t think one forward is the answer this window.
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How many sides have to be below us before action is taken then? Genuine question, simple answer please, if you could do it without insulting other members opinions, that would be great.
We are 4th in the league and I have to read posts talking about relegation, it's pathetic. To answer your question, I wouldn't countenance changing the coaching staff mid-season and would only give it a debate in the summer, if the team fails to make the top six.
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It’s not just goals, they create very little in the way of ‘good’ chances for the forwards.
Hence why I don’t think one forward is the answer this window.
We currently avg 1.24 per game what do you think we will average over the rest of the season?
I reckon it will rise to 1.6 per game between now and the end of the season.
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It’s not just goals, they create very little in the way of ‘good’ chances for the forwards.
Hence why I don’t think one forward is the answer this window.
Dike hadnt only been bought in to score gials. The idea is that a big powerful forward like Dike draws the defenders on crosses, disrupts their shape and allows the other attackers more time and space. At the moment we have zero physical presence so defenders just stand their ground and clear. Not saying it will work just that's the idea. By bringing in Dike Val is expecting the other atackers to score mire as well.
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Only J Rod would sort of fit now , agreed on Dike .
Feel for him already to be honest , huge pressure.
I'm with Dave, all three would fit very nicely thankyou. Barnes with his pace and power, JRod as the focal point and Gayle coming in from wide, like Robbo but a more natural finisher.
Tbf Barnes was head and shoulders above anyone else I saw in the division that year. Formation irrelevant, just get the ball to him. I thought he was an England regular in waiting, suprised he hasn't had more opportunity, but I digress.
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Perfect VI player =
Danny Dichio
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Perfect VI player =
Danny Dichio
Blimey, i'd almost forgotten about him!
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I'm with Dave, all three would fit very nicely thankyou. Barnes with his pace and power, JRod as the focal point and Gayle coming in from wide, like Robbo but a more natural finisher.
Tbf Barnes was head and shoulders above anyone else I saw in the division that year. Formation irrelevant, just get the ball to him. I thought he was an England regular in waiting, suprised he hasn't had more opportunity, but I digress.
Gayle's a pure finisher , through balls are his game . Not lofted punts or long throws to be brutally honest .
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Gayle's a pure finisher , through balls are his game . Not lofted punts or long throws to be brutally honest .
How many of the chances Hugill has had would he have put away 6/7?
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How many of the chances Hugill has had would he have put away 6/7?
I don't think Hugills had that many plus the previous poster was suggesting Gayle out wide which was my point.
I await Dike and hope he changes our attacks but my feeling is our creative issues lay deeper , I often look at the side and feel theres little balance and we are too top heavy with little return . I've also stated there's not enough goals or chances coming from centre midfield at the minute and that really is down to Val to change it , 3 in there would make a huge difference IMO but thats unlikely .
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Give a manager with 1 year's experience in England and a very rigid game plan two years regardless of results?
Does that mean the rest of the season and our eventual finishing position is irrelevant?
To answer your question, no it doesn’t mean that at all. If things go badly wrong then yes, of course we would need to act. The whole purpose of the point I was trying to make is that we need to be patient for once. If we make the play offs but do not go up for example, then that to me is not failure given the obvious limitations of the existing squad of players.
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Gayle's a pure finisher , through balls are his game . Not lofted punts or long throws to be brutally honest .
We have got a LOT of crosses into the box with no one making runs. Gayle would make more of those runs.
And I really don't think lofted punts is representative of the way we've played the last few months. That has become an oft repeated but not necessarily accurate narrative.
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I don't think Hugills had that many plus the previous poster was suggesting Gayle out wide which was my point.
I await Dike and hope he changes our attacks but my feeling is our creative issues lay deeper , I often look at the side and feel theres little balance and we are too top heavy with little return . I've also stated there's not enough goals or chances coming from centre midfield at the minute and that really is down to Val to change it , 3 in there would make a huge difference IMO but thats unlikely .
Oh yes he has😃 can't recall what game but he had 3 good chances and fluffed the lot.
Your right about the midfield though, it has to start creating chances and scoring to add to the hopefully better Striker we've signed.
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We have got a LOT of crosses into the box with no one making runs. Gayle would make more of those runs.
And I really don't think lofted punts is representative of the way we've played the last few months. That has become an oft repeated but not necessarily accurate narrative.
To my frustration the lofting is creeping back in after a spell of better play , a good example was twice against Cardiff for Diang up against Aden Flint . The same Albion player last Saturday again up against Dan Burn , Its crept backin since Derby away for some reason . Hoping now we have Dike to hold the ball up we'll see a lot less air ball .
You maybe right about making runs but surely 20 odd games in and stuck with the rigid three up top the coaching staff would have got the current forwards doing that better ? .
Personally think thats a balance of the side issue side again , 3 rammed up top much the same with little coming from midfield .
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We are 4th in the league and I have to read posts talking about relegation, it's pathetic. To answer your question, I wouldn't countenance changing the coaching staff mid-season and would only give it a debate in the summer, if the team fails to make the top six.
I didn't mention relegation, I simply asked how low we would have to fall in the table before you become concerned. If you are saying that no run of results will make you question Val, then that is fair enough, it's your opinion.
It does not, however, make those who do pathetic, or in "la la land". If the current run continues, concerns will be valid, even if you don't share them.
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Gayle's a pure finisher , through balls are his game . Not lofted punts or long throws to be brutally honest .
Given the sitters that Hugill has missed if he swapped him with a "pure finisher" then we'd have about eight more points.
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It's not just the forwards though is it?
Dorrans 21 goals in 09/10. How many did Gera, Koumas, Koren, Pereira notch in Championship campaigns?
Mowatt has got 3 goals, Livermore is on 0.
We are utilising a non-scoring midfield.
It's embarrassing.
This for me is the biggest issue and my biggest defence for Val.
Whilst I think we can be better on the eye - the lack of options that Val has had available is stark really compared to previous head coaches at this level.
If you compare the squads that Mowbray and Di Matteo had to the one at this level then it is chalk and cheese really.
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This for me is the biggest issue and my biggest defence for Val.
Whilst I think we can be better on the eye - the lack of options that Val has had available is stark really compared to previous head coaches at this level.
If you compare the squads that Mowbray and Di Matteo had to the one at this level then it is chalk and cheese really.
On the flipside the overall standard of player is currently lower as well.
Val has a poorer squad but is also in a poorer league.
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On the flipside the overall standard of player is currently lower as well.
Val has a poorer squad but is also in a poorer league.
We say this every time we're in the Championship. As before we're in the top 3/4 squads in the division, this time round we're not as far ahead of the others as we previously have been and we lack that x-factor player who can win us games on their own (Dorrans, Barnes/Gayle/Rodriguez, Pereira/Diangana).
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This for me is the biggest issue and my biggest defence for Val.
Whilst I think we can be better on the eye - the lack of options that Val has had available is stark really compared to previous head coaches at this level.
If you compare the squads that Mowbray and Di Matteo had to the one at this level then it is chalk and cheese really.
He doesn't do himself any favours by guaranteeing zero goals Livermore a start, but I agree with your point, the alternatives are not exactly banging them in either.
I've said all season that the midfield is as much an issue and is a contributory factor in our lack of quality chances. We have players who need to run onto the ball, a-la the Brighton goal, they just aren't suited to crosses into the box, no matter how many we put in is going to change that. Hopefully Dike will.
I'm not a massive fan of stats but read an interesting one that says only 20% of goals are headers so high crosses into the box should not be the be all and end all.
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We say this every time we're in the Championship. As before we're in the top 3/4 squads in the division, this time round we're not as far ahead of the others as we previously have been and we lack that x-factor player who can win us games on their own (Dorrans, Barnes/Gayle/Rodriguez, Pereira/Diangana).
I've never said this is a poor league until this season when it's at an all time low. In fact this is generally a very tough league to get out of I would say. This is the first year it isn't.
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Given the sitters that Hugill has missed if he swapped him with a "pure finisher" then we'd have about eight more points.
Val seems to prefer a big number 9 , huge Gayle fan but that he isn't .
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It's not just the forwards though is it?
Dorrans 21 goals in 09/10. How many did Gera, Koumas, Koren, Pereira notch in Championship campaigns?
Mowatt has got 3 goals, Livermore is on 0.
We are utilising a non-scoring midfield.
It's embarrassing.
as Groovephil says it's not just the lack of goals (which is concerning) it's the lack of creating anything. Both Mowatt and Livermore have 1 assist each.
Mowatt's came in the first game of the season and Livermore's against Blues in October.
It'll be interesting to see who plays in the midfield at QPR whether we start with Livermore & Molumby, or Livermore & TGH or Molumby & TGH with Livermore at CB for Kipre.
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as Groovephil says it's not just the lack of goals (which is concerning) it's the lack of creating anything. Both Mowatt and Livermore have 1 assist each.
Mowatt's came in the first game of the season and Livermore's against Blues in October.
It'll be interesting to see who plays in the midfield at QPR whether we start with Livermore & Molumby, or Livermore & TGH or Molumby & TGH with Livermore at CB for Kipre.
All if buts and maybe at the minute we have played all season without a focal point a forward who can lead the line and make the runs required, Hugill was as good as useless not only failing to put away the chances he had but failing to make the runs and link play together.
Mowatt had 7 assists last season same manager same football one obvious striking difference.
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We have got a LOT of crosses into the box with no one making runs. Gayle would make more of those runs.
And I really don't think lofted punts is representative of the way we've played the last few months. That has become an oft repeated but not necessarily accurate narrative.
Very true. Brighton being a very good example of this. Very little of the long ball, lofted punt type passes played.
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All if buts and maybe at the minute we have played all season without a focal point a forward who can lead the line and make the runs required, Hugill was as good as useless not only failing to put away the chances he had but failing to make the runs and link play together.
Mowatt had 7 assists last season same manager same football one obvious str4iking difference.
Genuine question , how many of those assists were from set pieces for Mowatt last season . Anybody know ?
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Was the Grant ball that put Diangana in (but for either good defending or a foul depending on who you support) a lofted punt or a great pass?
I’ve said it before, there’s no total football at this level, or in world football really besides a few elite sides. There will be long balls and clearing lines. Recently I don’t think we’ve been overly reliant on them or used them more than most other sides.
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We say this every time we're in the Championship. As before we're in the top 3/4 squads in the division, this time round we're not as far ahead of the others as we previously have been and we lack that x-factor player who can win us games on their own (Dorrans, Barnes/Gayle/Rodriguez, Pereira/Diangana).
Aaaaah: Sanity at last. Well said Dave, and special mention for Mr Cash also.
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Genuine question , how many of those assists were from set pieces for Mowatt last season . Anybody know ?
Of his 6 assists only 2 were from set pieces, a free kick against Cardiff and a corner against QPR, the others are described as "pass" or "cross".
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/alex-mowatt/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/283514/saison/2020/pos/7
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Of his 6 assists only 2 were from set pieces, a free kick against Cardiff and a corner against QPR, the others are described as "pass" or "cross".
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/alex-mowatt/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/283514/saison/2020/pos/7g
Thanks mate , Val wont but I'd like a 3 in the middle with Mowatt prompting play .
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Absolute clown. How anyone backs this disaster is mind blowing.
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Surely in trouble now. 2 wins in 11 apparently, 7 points behind Blackburn. 2 points in front of boro, we’ll be out the play offs by the end of the month.
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Albion, please do the right thing for once and sack this clown. Whilst we can still make the playoffs. I’ve never been so disillusioned with a manager as I have with this guy
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Sack him. We just can't score. It's a joke.
Whatever he does on the training ground, it's just not working.
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Surely in trouble now. 2 wins in 11 apparently, 7 points behind Blackburn. 2 points in front of boro, we’ll be out the play offs by the end of the month.
He really really really needs to go....if he is here in February we have no chance of going up.
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Please don't tell me this bloke isn't a hoofball merchant , woeful.
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Whatever they do with the manager, this squad has a lot to answer for and we desperately need quality added into it.
Anyone who can pass and hold possession would be a start, goodness me it’s bad.
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Dike alone won't transform Ismael's Albion - the man's deluded if he thinks it will. Desperately need a creative player either in the midfield or the front 3.
In danger of missing out on the playoffs now though.
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Surely in trouble now. 2 wins in 11 apparently, 7 points behind Blackburn. 2 points in front of boro, we’ll be out the play offs by the end of the month.
Level with Boro, Cov can leapfrog us with games in hand and we’ve got the most useless manager we’ve ever had.
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Dike alone won't transform Ismael's Albion - the man's deluded if he thinks it will. Desperately need a creative player either in the midfield or the front 3.
In danger of missing out on the playoffs now though.
Self inflicted if the worst happens .
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I just can’t think of any positives about this guy. Hopeless and results have been proving it for months.
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People still think he’s the man for us?
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People still think he’s the man for us?
never have,never will...
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What happened today? Just got in and seen score.
What improvements has Val made? Seems a bit of a nearly man but at this rate looks more like nearly relegated than promoted.
Needs a good 20m plus to be a success it seems.
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Didn’t think we would lose that one and thought Val didn’t think we could win it either hence only one change in 90 minutes. Still think his job is safe for time being especially after being backed in window.
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People still think he’s the man for us?
No, however anyone with a football brain will realise this squad of players is awful.
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I really want to support Val but it’s becoming harder each week, 16th in form over 10 games just isn’t anywhere near good enough, goals have completely dried up for what 20 games & he’s made absolutely no adjustments.
It’s good have a clear belief & philosophy to play but you can’t be stubborn towards it so as to not change or adapt your philosophy when it’s not working, well results & the eye test show it’s not working if he’s not going to change it’l cost him his job.
Unless something changes we won’t even make top half let alone playoffs.
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Is that right he only made one sub today? I know options are limited but surely with 6 or so mins of stoppage time you’d throw fellows and Grady on for a defender or two. If that’s correct he should be sacked alone for that
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What happened today? Just got in and seen score.
What improvements has Val made? Seems a bit of a nearly man but at this rate looks more like nearly relegated than promoted.
Needs a good 20m plus to be a success it seems.
Started well for 25 / 30 mins without creating enough , same old rigid system . 2nd half turned into hoofing and slashing the ball away I'm afraid .
Dike looked big and strong as a 60 min sub , to be honest we didn't look like scoring .
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He's so enamored with his system he refuses to change it - even when he doesn't have the players available to suit it.
He was playing 3 centre halves when we only had 1 fit and available. Change the system to suit what you've got.#
So far out of his depth it's incredible. He needs to go.
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Started well for 25 / 30 mins without creating enough , same old rigid system . 2nd half turned into hoofing and slashing the ball away I'm afraid .
Dike looked big and strong as a 60 min sub , to be honest we didn't look like scoring .
Thanks Dexy. Same old same old. Might finish 16th at this rate.
Worst manager i've seen in some time.
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I’ll say it again, worse manager here since Gould.
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My stance has always been that when VI has a blip we the fans have to be patient, sadly this is no longer a blip!! If he don’t turn it around in next couple of games, the board have to do the right thing
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Those who support him can you please tell me what you’ve seen this entire season that makes you think he’s going to get things right given time?
The players just aren’t this bad, everyone of them has performed better under other managers. Every single one.
He’s setting our club back years with every game, we’ll lose against P’Boro for certain and that better be his last game. I’d rather say this season is a right off and get a manager in who has experience of promotion. We have a guy who had a lucky season with bloody Barnsley.
Whoever thought this guy was the right one should also lose his job.
I’m embarrassed of my club.
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Rooney is MILES ahead of Ismael. It's not even close.
We could have had Wilder but someone thought he was difficult.
A totally circus of a club.
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Rooney is MILES ahead of Ismael. It's not even close.
Wayne or Colleen?
Just checking.....
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We could have had Wilder but someone thought he was difficult.
A totally circus of a club.
For Lai to save face he will sink the club. Shocking.
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Wayne or Colleen?
Just checking.....
Both. Colleen keeps clean sheets.
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Funny thing is we are still an attractive option to a good manager, let’s be honest just changing the system and making subs at better times and we’d probably make the bloody play offs.
I seriously reckon a fan could do a better job for the rest of the season.
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You may laugh, but...
Get rid of Val tomorrow, get Rooney in within the next week (I'm not even a fan of Rooney), use his contacts to get a good midfield loan player in, or more, then end up in the play-offs or going up automatic.
That's the better option than ending up mid-table.
I'm not laughing at all.
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Those who support him can you please tell me what you’ve seen this entire season that makes you think he’s going to get things right given time?
The players just aren’t this bad, everyone of them has performed better under other managers. Every single one.
He’s setting our club back years with every game, we’ll lose against P’Boro for certain and that better be his last game. I’d rather say this season is a right off and get a manager in who has experience of promotion. We have a guy who had a lucky season with bloody Barnsley.
Whoever thought this guy was the right one should also lose his job.
I’m embarrassed of my club.
whilst I agree that VI isn’t the answer I’m not convinced by many of these players either. Most of them didn’t get a look in towards the end of last season. For me Townsend, Furlong, Grant, Robinson, Livermore, Phillips who have been with us for sometime are not good enough.
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Funny thing is we are still an attractive option to a good manager, let’s be honest just changing the system and making subs at better times and we’d probably make the bloody play offs.
I seriously reckon a fan could do a better job for the rest of the season.
Anyone could do a better job. He's the worst manager in the division.
We are still an attractive club. Anyone could come here and have very good chance of getting us up 1st time. That's why VI himself came. Sadly he's been exposed BIG TIME by Darren Ferguson.
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Anyone could do a better job. He's the worst manager in the division.
We are still an attractive club. Anyone could come here and have very good chance of getting us up 1st time. That's why VI himself came. Sadly he's been exposed BIG TIME by Darren Ferguson.
Sadly I’d swap him for DF all day and that just about sums up how bad things are.
He really is probably the worst manager in the league as you say, every other one would be doing better at Albion.
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Sadly I’d swap him for DF all day and that just about sums up how bad things are.
He really is probably the worst manager in the league as you say, every other one would be doing better at Albion.
I've never known a manager without the ability to manage a game. There is no point him being here at all.
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whilst I agree that VI isn’t the answer I’m not convinced by many of these players either. Most of them didn’t get a look in towards the end of last season. For me Townsend, Furlong, Grant, Robinson, Livermore, Phillips who have been with us for sometime are not good enough.
I wouldn’t disagree but compared to others in this league we have a top 3 squad. Not a bottom 3 squad which is what our form is suggesting.
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First couple of games of the season looked good to me- clear intent and energy and aggressive.
We seem to have the same shape but less energy and aggression I think. I suspect player power is ruling the club again but that’s not to detract from VI’s inflexibility.
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I've never known a manager without the ability to manage a game. There is no point him being here at all.
That is it, we all know exactly what we will do each game. The opposition must just laugh when they see it and know exactly how to play against it. To not change the tactics when getting over ran after half time is just negligent.
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Started well for 25 / 30 mins without creating enough , same old rigid system . 2nd half turned into hoofing and slashing the ball away I'm afraid .
Dike looked big and strong as a 60 min sub , to be honest we didn't look like scoring .
You think the system is responsible for a chronic lack of quality in the midfield, full back and in defence today? We simply had nobody in the middle of the pitch who was capable of putting their foot on the ball and showing a bit of class. Both Moiumby and Livermore were dreadful; out wide Townsend, Reach & Furlong got more wrong than right, some of their crossing was awful. On another day we could have got a draw and should have had a penalty before they scored but we gave our front three next to nothing, that said I thought Grant was wasteful. Throw in a make shift defence with two small full backs and it was fairly predictable that Austin would snuff out a free header to grab a win for them.
Our side today was decent championship material, nothing more. Our strongest 16 can compete for the play-offs, this lot can not. Too many average championship players. QPR more than matched us. We need Dara, Bartley & Mowett back asap.
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You may laugh, but...
Get rid of Val tomorrow, get Rooney in within the next week (I'm not even a fan of Rooney), use his contacts to get a good midfield loan player in, or more, then end up in the play-offs or going up automatic.
That's the better option than ending up mid-table.
He’s still earning about 90k a week at Derby
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I wouldn’t disagree but compared to others in this league we have a top 3 squad. Not a bottom 3 squad which is what our form is suggesting.
Top three squad 😂
where is the creativity in the squad? Other than Johnstone there isn’t one player who could hold their own in the premier league
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Anyone could do a better job. He's the worst manager in the division. We are still an attractive club. Anyone could come here and have very good chance of getting us up 1st time. That's why VI himself came. Sadly he's been exposed BIG TIME by Darren Ferguson.
Very strong contender here for the most over the top comment today.
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Top three squad 😂
where is the creativity in the squad? Other than Johnstone there isn’t one player who could hold their own in the premier league
We are not in the premier league.
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Not a fan of VI but this team we have is utter dross but he doesn't help himself. Allardyce identified the vast majority of our first 11 and bombed them all the out the time so we have to look at the squad and realise were basically playing the B team from last year, combined with a poor style of play and no investment from invisible owners its no wonder we are in the state we are.
As for VI himself, it's obvious he is out of his depth and looks like he's lost the players. Needs to go ASAP, might be an unpopular opinion but I was never this bored under Pulis as we atleast still had a few players who could play football left over now it's Pulis football with rubbish players and rubbish results.
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Very strong contender here for the most over the top comment today.
Be honest, do you think any other manager in the league would do a worse job than Val is?
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Be honest, do you think any other manager in the league would do a worse job than Val is?
Yes. See Sheffield United.
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He’s still earning about 90k a week at Derby
Is he on that as a manager!?!?!? Holy cow they have bigger problems there than i thought!
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We are not in the premier league.
No we are not, however numerous championship clubs have outfield players who could perform in the premier league.
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Yes. See Sheffield United.
There current manager has a better record in the last 10 games.
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There current manager has a better record in the last 10 games.
So what? Do the football league award them bonus points for that?
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Yes. See Sheffield United.
Just one, that says it all ;D
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So what? Do the football league award them bonus points for that?
😂😂😂😂 did I say that?
Do you really think Val is the man for the job?
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Just one, that says it all ;D
"He's the 23rd best manager in the division dammit!"
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Just one, that says it all ;D
Actually 19 teams below us.
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No we are not, however numerous championship clubs have outfield players who could perform in the premier league.
They do not. This is a shocking championship.
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How many on here were naive to expect us not to struggle at QPR today with a team including Livermore, Molumby, Furlong, Townsend & Reach? We had a make-shift backline and no midfield.
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Just a point here:
TGH - 7 games.
Furlong - A few goals in his career but not many
Clarke - No record for scoring goals during his career
Townsend - No record of scoring goals.
Reach - A few spectacular strikes in his career.
Molumby - No record of scoring goals.
Livermore- No record of scoring goals.
Robinson - Not prolific.
Phillips - Not prolific.
Grant - Decent record at this level.
That was today's team. In short we have a squad full of non scoring players throughout their careers.
Is it any wonder we can't score?
Recruitment?
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Actually 19 teams below us.
Forget league position now as we are in a very false position. 17th on current form.
Happy with that?
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They do not. This is a shocking championship.
It really is. Massivel underachievement being 5th.
Could be 7th by end of next game and so on and so on.....
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It really is. Massivel underachievement being 5th.
Could be 7th by end of next game and so on and so on.....
Could be 4th next game and so on and so on....
I wonder if the Bournemouth forum is full of fans screaming for Scott Parker to be sacked following their dip in form.
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Just a point here:
TGH - 7 games.
Furlong - A few goals in his career but not many
Clarke - No record for scoring goals during his career
Townsend - No record of scoring goals.
Reach - A few spectacular strikes in his career.
Molumby - No record of scoring goals.
Livermore- No record of scoring goals.
Robinson - Not prolific.
Phillips - Not prolific.
Grant - Decent record at this level.
That was today's team. In short we have a squad full of non scoring players throughout their careers.
Is it any wonder we can't score?
Recruitment?
Now imagine you’re the manager and the on last day of the August transfer window you say we don’t need anything else I’m happy with my squad.
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Could be 4th next game and so on and so on....
I wonder if the Bournemouth forum is full of fans screaming for Scott Parker to be sacked following their dip in form.
Mate if you think things are going to improve under VI i can only salute your optimism.
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Now imagine you’re the manager and the on last day of the August transfer window you say we don’t need anything else I’m happy with my squad.
You expect the manager to tell the press and public in a press conference he doesn't rate the squad and negotiate his transfer budget through the media...interesting and delusional strategy.
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Mate if you think things are going to improve under VI i can only salute your optimism.
Incredibly illogically I expect our form and results to pick up when our better players are available for selection again and Dike gets a run in the team.
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Now imagine you’re the manager and the on last day of the August transfer window you say we don’t need anything else I’m happy with my squad.
To be fair we've just signed Dike. Doesn't matter what VI or any other manager says he's getting no more money unless we move someone on. Same in August. If we'd signed a striker then we wouldn't have signed Dike now
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You think the system is responsible for a chronic lack of quality in the midfield, full back and in defence today? We simply had nobody in the middle of the pitch who was capable of putting their foot on the ball and showing a bit of class. Both Moiumby and Livermore were dreadful; out wide Townsend, Reach & Furlong got more wrong than right, some of their crossing was awful. On another day we could have got a draw and should have had a penalty before they scored but we gave our front three next to nothing, that said I thought Grant was wasteful. Throw in a make shift defence with two small full backs and it was fairly predictable that Austin would snuff out a free header to grab a win for them.
Our side today was decent championship material, nothing more. Our strongest 16 can compete for the play-offs, this lot can not. Too many average championship players. QPR more than matched us. We need Dara, Bartley & Mowett back asap.
Strong contender for the clutching at straws, rehashed excuse post of the day.
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You expect the manager to tell the press and public in a press conference he doesn't rate the squad and negotiate his transfer budget through the media...interesting and delusional strategy.
😂😂 I’d expect him to be back at the club explaining to people why we need certain players. Not going for a bloody walk which is what he did. Pure arrogance.
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Incredibly illogically I expect our form and results to pick up when our better players are available for selection again and Dike gets a run in the team.
But we've had most of our players available for most of the season.
Every week is a new excuse for the guy.
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He’s still earning about 90k a week at Derby
That looks to be true, fair point. Maybe he'll end up at Everton soon? If not though, if he's ambitious he may consider a change to his wages somehow to be at a club with more of a chance of success? Maybe an option of a healthy promotion bonus or something?
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Strong contender for the clutching at straws, rehashed excuse post of the day.
Excuse for what exactly? I expected us to struggle today given the team that was put out and expect us to in the play offs but not the top two at the end of the season.
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😂😂😂😂 did I say that?
Do you really think Val is the man for the job?
I doubt there are many people that think Ismael is a good coach, however do you really think we have good players?
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But we've had most of our players available for most of the season.
Every week is a new excuse for the guy.
Yes, which is why we are 5th not 12th. Although you will appreciate that we have been without Mowatt our best midfielder for a long time and he hasn't been match fit since his injury and that Dara has been out for months.
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All the reporters trot out the line "He loves his stats" (xg, how far players run etc). Do you think the ipads are able to just show the main stat.....nil.
For all the debates the most glaring stat is how few goals we score. I have tried to back Val and cannot stand the constant firing of managers but his stubbornness in continuing to play the same way even though we aren't scoring is quite frankly idiotic...
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Yes, which is why we are 5th not 12th. Although you will appreciate that we have been without Mowatt our best midfielder for a long time and he hasn't been match fit since his injury and that Dara has been out for months.
So that's on Val to cope, to adapt, to MANAGE. That is his job.
He's shown nothing. Literally nothing of the above.
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Actually 19 teams below us.
At one time there was 23 teams below us, but every week we seem to slip just a little further behind 82.
I am still not Val out, but with every game I wake up and think 'today we will turn the corner', and I go to bed disappointed once again. His tactics are frankly, unfathomable; I have no idea what he is trying to achieve. The 'press' is as hard as a tummy tickle, the midfield seem all over the place, and we have absolutely no product up front.
We are making bang average teams look like Brazil at times, and I seriously doubt that the 4 year plan often referred to is about getting us promoted at some time during that period. Lai wants us up ASAP so he can sell us, I cannot see him waiting 4 years to achieve that.
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All the reporters trot out the line "He loves his stats" (xg, how far players run etc). Do you think the ipads are able to just show the main stat.....nil.
For all the debates the most glaring stat is how few goals we score. I have tried to back Val and cannot stand the constant firing of managers but his stubbornness in continuing to play the same way even though we aren't scoring is quite frankly idiotic...
A lot of time this season we have created chance after chance and combination of poor finishing and bad luck had seen wins turn into draws and draws into defeats, Barnsley away being the most recent obvious example. Today was not like that, we created next to nothing. That's chiefly because our midfield was feeble and had no quality. That will improve once we get our better players back. We also of course have to look forward to Dike playing not Hugill.
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Anyone think we should have had penalty? Val in interview post match was positive it was.
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So that's on Val to cope, to adapt, to MANAGE. That is his job. He's shown nothing. Literally nothing of the above.
You expect our manager to wave a magic wand so that our weaker players are as capable as our better players.
We have a decent squad at this level but will struggle when depleted, we saw that today and we have also seen we can match and beat anybody outside the top two with our stronger line-up. I'm excited to see the impact that Dike can make once we get Mowatt back.
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I doubt there are many people that think Ismael is a good coach, however do you really think we have good players?
I think we have players who, if correctly coached, managed and shown tactically what to do can easily make the play offs.
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Anyone think we should have had penalty? Val in interview post match was positive it was.
Yes, it was nailed on a penalty, a lot more blatant than last week at home. But I thought a draw was a fair result until they nicked it.
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Anyone think we should have had penalty? Val in interview post match was positive it was.
Never a penalty - He needs to go to Specsavers
[Other opticians are also available] ;)
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Never a penalty - He needs to go to Specsavers
[Other opticians are also available] ;)
Their defender went straight through the back of TGH.
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Anyone think we should have had penalty? Val in interview post match was positive it was.
When the manager constantly keeps deflecting you know he’s in trouble.
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You expect our manager to wave a magic wand so that our weaker players are as capable as our better players.
We have a decent squad at this level but will struggle when depleted, we saw that today and we have also seen we can match and beat anybody outside the top two with our stronger line-up. I'm excited to see the impact that Dike can make once we get Mowatt back.
What are you on about? No one forces him to play his system week in week out.
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I think we have players who, if correctly coached, managed and shown tactically what to do can easily make the play offs.
It’s possible they will make the play offs with Ismael in charge.
I don’t rate the man and don’t like the style of football, however I firmly believe we are where we are due to the inept owners.
You could see this coming when the club declared before a ball was even kicked in the premier league last season.
I hope I’m wrong but I can see it being years before we return and we will soon become another Birmingham City.
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Excuse for what exactly? I expected us to struggle today given the team that was put out and expect us to in the play offs but not the top two at the end of the season.
You are clutching at the "it will all come good" straw, coupled with the "poor Val, this squad is sooooo terrible" but it's just not true and it is you who is the naive one.
The majority of this squad have played at prem level, something most of the division can only dream of yet this manager, despite trying every combination of personnel possible, has them playing at bottom half Championship levels. Still he won't try a different formation, regardless of injuries / suspensions or, unforgivably, what unfolds on the pitch. In game management is the worst I've seen in 40 odd years, no question. He may as well be at Asda rather than the touchline.
As someone said he has, as do you, Graeme Jones syndrome, whereby the system is correct and it's the idiot players fault for not making it work. We were 4th when Big Dave went, Val is now worse than that.
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What are you on about? No one forces him to play his system week in week out.
Open your mind to the possibility that some of us rather than pontificating about "the system" actually believe that good footballers help and bad footballers hinder the team. It is not the system that caused Livermore and Molumby to be dire, they just aren't very good. Ditto a few others like Furlong. Hence, I was not surprised that we struggled today. Albeit a draw would have been a fairer result. Considering we had a makeshift defence we limited QPR to very little, but couldn't create anything either. Tight game.
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Open your mind to the possibility that some of us rather than pontificating about "the system" actually believe that good footballers help and bad footballers hinder the team. It is not the system that caused Livermore and Molumby to be dire, they just aren't very good. Ditto a few others like Furlong. Hence, I was not surprised that we struggled today. Albeit a draw would have been a fairer result. Considering we had a makeshift defence we limited QPR to very little, but couldn't create anything either. Tight game.
My mind is open. Vals isn't. I'm the one suggesting change. Val is the one refusing it.
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You are clutching at the "it will all come good" straw, coupled with the "poor Val, this squad is sooooo terrible" but it's just not true and it is you who is the naive one.
The majority of this squad have played at prem level, something most of the division can only dream of yet this manager, despite trying every combination of personnel possible, has them playing at bottom half Championship levels. Still he won't try a different formation, regardless of injuries / suspensions or, unforgivably, what unfolds on the pitch. In game management is the worst I've seen in 40 odd years, no question. He may as well be at Asda rather than the touchline.
As someone said he has, as do you, Graeme Jones syndrome, whereby the system is correct and it's the idiot players fault for not making it work. We were 4th when Big Dave went, Val is now worse than that.
The squad under big Dave was far superior to this current bunch of no hopers.
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You are clutching at the "it will all come good" straw, coupled with the "poor Val, this squad is sooooo terrible" but it's just not true and it is you who is the naive one.
The majority of this squad have played at prem level, something most of the division can only dream of yet this manager, despite trying every combination of personnel possible, has them playing at bottom half Championship levels. Still he won't try a different formation, regardless of injuries / suspensions or, unforgivably, what unfolds on the pitch. In game management is the worst I've seen in 40 odd years, no question. He may as well be at Asda rather than the touchline.
As someone said he has, as do you, Graeme Jones syndrome, whereby the system is correct and it's the idiot players fault for not making it work. We were 4th when Big Dave went, Val is now worse than that.
Can you please give me the lottery numbers for tonight? Should be easy for you given you have already decided what the rest of the season holds for the team. I expect us to make the play-offs. No more and no less.
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The squad under big Dave was far superior to this current bunch of no hopers.
Big Dave's squad was much better and I would argue Bilic had a better squad. He had Pereira.
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Can you please give me the lottery numbers for tonight? Should be easy for you given you have already decided what the rest of the season holds for the team. I expect us to make the play-offs. No more and no less.
I can't predict the lottery numbers sorry, too random.
What I can predict is:
We'll start 343 next game
Livermore will start
We will lump the ball forward at the first sign of pressure
We'll bring a forward on for a forward at around 60 minutes
We will put crosses in to a near empty box on numerous occasions.
Val will spend the entire 90 mins with hands in pockets and will have no in-game impact
We will finish the game 343 (barring sendings off of course.
Val will bemoan his luck post match.
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Open your mind to the possibility that some of us rather than pontificating about "the system" actually believe that good footballers help and bad footballers hinder the team. It is not the system that caused Livermore and Molumby to be dire, they just aren't very good. Ditto a few others like Furlong. Hence, I was not surprised that we struggled today. Albeit a draw would have been a fairer result. Considering we had a makeshift defence we limited QPR to very little, but couldn't create anything either. Tight game.
I would have been happy with a draw the team was cobbled together and did a half-decent job.
My one gripe is we need another midfielder on a par with Mowatt, Livermore in this system is a liability he needs replacing.
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Big Dave's squad was much better and I would argue Bilic had a better squad. He had Pereira.
Correct. This team is good enough to make the top six, no more. Suffering at present with injuries, suspensions and covid omissions.
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I can't predict the lottery numbers sorry, too random.
What I can predict is:
We'll start 343 next game
Livermore will start
We will lump the ball forward at the first sign of pressure
We'll bring a forward on for a forward at around 60 minutes
We will put crosses in to a near empty box on numerous occasions.
Val will spend the entire 90 mins with hands in pockets and will have no in-game impact
We will finish the game 343 (barring sendings off of course.
Val will bemoan his luck post match.
Spot on.
Now imagine you’re a player in the squad and how that must feel. Asked to do something that doesn’t work and when it doesn’t he makes the same awful changes and it still doesn’t work.
How long before you think F this and your effort drops.
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Can you please give me the lottery numbers for tonight? Should be easy for you given you have already decided what the rest of the season holds for the team. I expect us to make the play-offs. No more and no less.
A poster last week knew what was going to happen 18mths from now, we have some smart fans!
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Correct. This team is good enough to make the top six, no more. Suffering at present with injuries, suspensions and covid omissions.
Tell you what 82, you are batting well tonight. Perhaps you should open for England...... ;)
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Tell you what 82, you are batting well tonight. Perhaps you should open for England...... ;)
What juvenile rubbish, your post isn’t even funny, not even with a tragic emoji of self congratulation.
I’m just pleased that the usual doomsayers on here get to have so much fun this evening, having a good moan.
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This Manager continues to pick Livermore week after week who contributes nothing.
We cross from the flanks to players with no goal scoring instinct.
We have scored 7 goals in 13 incl being scoreless at Barnsley, at a ground where BARROW scored 4.
Our players look like they've given up, downed tools.
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Tell you what 82, you are batting well tonight. Perhaps you should open for England...... ;)
He cannot do worse than Burns or Hameed :) To be honest an 11 from the WestBrom.com board would score more than the current England 11 (except for Root).
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I can't predict the lottery numbers sorry, too random.
What I can predict is:
We'll start 343 next game
Livermore will start
We will lump the ball forward at the first sign of pressure
We'll bring a forward on for a forward at around 60 minutes
We will put crosses in to a near empty box on numerous occasions.
Val will spend the entire 90 mins with hands in pockets and will have no in-game impact
We will finish the game 343 (barring sendings off of course.
Val will bemoan his luck post match.
Absolutely spot on.
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What juvenile rubbish, your post isn’t even funny, not even with a tragic emoji of self congratulation.
I’m just pleased that the usual doomsayers on here get to have so much fun this evening, having a good moan.
I'm not a doomsayer and take no fun from the current situation.
When Val was appointed I listened to what he had to say and liked the cut of his jib. Then we started the season and I loved the intensity and we had a good start so was very hopeful. My expectation was top 6 nailed on with a chance of top 2.
Then.
Something went wrong and has continued to go wrong and Val has no answers. He, and you, can hide behind suspensions and injuries, but he has had the same squad all season and has simply lost his way. yet still refuses to try anything different. He is predictable and one-dimensional.
Your approach is to pick a side and stick to it rigidly and argue and condescend anyone who disagrees.
I prefer to react to what I am actually seeing on the pitch. If it's good I'll say so, if it's not I'll say so.
I do not have your desire to be right, I just want to see us be as good as we can be and currently we are not and Val is doing nothing to halt the slide.
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Anyone think we should have had penalty? Val in interview post match was positive it was.
No , went down far too easy . Think Val.was grasping on that one .
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No , went down far too easy . Think Val.was grasping on that one .
I thought it was a blatant pen but would like to see it back.
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No , went down far too easy . Think Val.was grasping on that one .
Agreed. Was playing for it. No pen for me.
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I'm not a doomsayer and take no fun from the current situation.
When Val was appointed I listened to what he had to say and liked the cut of his jib. Then we started the season and I loved the intensity and we had a good start so was very hopeful. My expectation was top 6 nailed on with a chance of top 2.
Then.
Something went wrong and has continued to go wrong and Val has no answers. He, and you, can hide behind suspensions and injuries, but he has had the same squad all season and has simply lost his way. yet still refuses to try anything different. He is predictable and one-dimensional.
Your approach is to pick a side and stick to it rigidly and argue and condescend anyone who disagrees.
I prefer to react to what I am actually seeing on the pitch. If it's good I'll say so, if it's not I'll say so.
I do not have your desire to be right, I just want to see us be as good as we can be and currently we are not and Val is doing nothing to halt the slide.
Newsflash: nobody gets promoted or relegated in January.
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No, however anyone with a football brain will realise this squad of players is awful.
There’s more than enough there to get the job done...yes we have some very average players but my god almost anyone could get more out of them.
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I don't know how anyone can defend him anymore.
The goalscoring situation is just embarrassing.
We have 4 goals in the last 9 league games, we must be bottom for this statistic?
He has Castro available now but if he continues to pick Livermore and Molumby then he deserves the sack.
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I don't know how anyone can defend him anymore.
The goalscoring situation is just embarrassing.
We have 4 goals in the last 9 league games, we must be bottom for this statistic?
He has Castro available now but if he continues to pick Livermore and Molumby then he deserves the sack.
I’m sure there aren’t many people who defend him, however there are people who also realise the squad is awful.
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I’m sure there aren’t many people who defend him, however there are people who also realise the squad is awful.
I don't agree the squad is awful for this division. We generally outperform teams on XG but continue to fail to win.
The way we set up, the 1st goal is absolutely critical and too often we go one behind.
Why oh why don't we switch to an expansive game to try and outscore teams instead?
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Struggling to defend him any more.
He's been badly let down by the chances missed by out strikers but it's starting to feel very much like it's just not meant to be.
He couldn't have a friendlier opponent for next week. Anything less than a very comfortable win and he will be in big trouble I'd imagine.
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Newsflash: nobody gets promoted or relegated in January.
Newsflash: Only 2 teams get promoted after 46 games and Val has, pretty much, ruled that out by January.
On current form, top 6 will be gone by April.
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Stubborn, predictable, non-existent in game management. Bad combo for a manager. Get rid.
Other squads around us aren't good enough to be challenging for promotion either, but their managers have got them over-performing.
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At this point in time we are under achieving in one of the poorest championships ever, squad of player’s at his disposal is probably one of the worst the club have had since the 90’s. Under owner’s stewardship our recruitment has been awful with exception of Pereira, mediocre footballer’s have been given long and lucrative contract’s which results in club unable to move them on.
As for Val just not a fan of his style of football but my opinion means nothing it’s Lai who will ultimately decide his fate if results don’t improve.
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Wouldn't it be ironic if Fergie Junior was the man to put the nail in the coffin next weekend after their early season run in
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Wouldn't it be ironic if Fergie Junior was the man to put the nail in the coffin next weekend after their early season run in
thinking the same thing especially with our results against teams at or near foot of table.
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This season has been hard to watch. Ismael seems out of his depth and frozen in games to me, ineffectual. The players seem to be going through motions and the set up is so rigid and turgid to watch it’s untrue. Comparisons with Pulis are cruel as Pulis built successful teams and had them well organised and knowing their jobs implicitly. Pulis teams could score goals and had a midfield. We need a (new) coach who can improve players and develop young players. Ismael is turning us into a Barnsley , a lower championship club (form tells us we’re getting worse every week) in the mould of a late 80s % football team a la sheff utd or Wimbledon under Bassett.
It’s tragic that we have the owner and manager we do at the minute. I can’t see Ismael lasting much longer.
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Incredibly illogically I expect our form and results to pick up when our better players are available for selection again and Dike gets a run in the team.
Think most of us have been thinking those thoughts for a few months but it's not happening, even when at full strength. Lost count how many hopefull long balls were played today, we have no style of pattern to our play. It's on the manager to play a style and system to suit the players he has now otherwise we are going nowhere.
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Before we start, I'm a West brom fan of 50 years standing and have seen some good and some dross!
I do not go now, and have no allegiance to any manager, we've been poor now for nearly 3 years! It can't always be the manager can it? Maybe the players ought to be taking some responsibility for their £50k a week!
We've a weak management team and feel we've wasted a massive opportunity when we were the only WM team in the PL as recently as only a few years ago ok we haven't had the investment of Villa & wolves but surely we deserve better!
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I see that the Everton board are meeting tonight to discuss the future of manager Rafa Benitez. It is wishful thinking that our Board - whoever they are - are also meeting tonight to discuss the future of Ismael.
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Fulham went behind twice today and won 6-2.
We've won one game all season when the other team has scored first.
The corner flags have more influence in-game than our manager.
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I see that the Everton board are meeting tonight to discuss the future of manager Rafa Benitez. It is wishful thinking that our Board - whoever they are - are also meeting tonight to discuss the future of Ismael.
If they’re are doing their jobs professionally then they should already be drawing up a list of replacements and starting to sound out candidates.
I imagine a certain Mr Fergie junior can’t wait for next week. Like others have said I have a feeling that will be the end of Val. Football again writing a better story than you could imagine.
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I could cut Val some slack if he wasn't stuck to the same tactics and system every single week even when its not working .His football is pretty grim and we now appear to resort to smashing it forward asap and that will only get worse with Dike to aim at ironically .
Yes this squad has some weak areas but these players are better than most of the football we see most weeks and certainly better than that 2nd half .
Appointing someone to build long term was the correct idea , appointing VI knowing he plays Wimbledon 1991 tactics was not . Either he changes / bends some of his methods or he hangs himself and loses his job which nobody really wants but would be his own fault . I think we know how this ends .
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A lot of people saying that Val needs to change the tactics, but very few are suggesting what those tactics should be. Of those who do suggest another formation, strange that some should be choosing a less attacking formation like 4-4-2. Scoring goals is the No.1 problem so I can't see having less forwards is going to help. 4-4-2 means just bunching more through the middle.
4-3-3 would be better, but at the end of the day, its the same uncreative midfielders you have to choose from. Aside from Mowatt, we have no creative midfielders, and certainly none in the Pereira bracket (or even Stefan Johansen bracket). I can't really see how Robinson, Livermore, Mulumby are going to be more effective players in another formation.
Up top its the various combinations we've already seen + Dike. I am hoping that Dike is going to make a difference. He definitely is a player who can use his body, which may unsettle a few defences and set up more chances. O'Shea will improve us when he comes back, and introducing some Academy youngsters is good here and there, but they need to be good enough to help grind out results. Above all, we need an extra creative player playing behind the forwards, who also gets on the scoresheet. That should be the next priority.
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A lot of people saying that Val needs to change the tactics, but very few are suggesting what those tactics should be. Of those who do suggest another formation, strange that some should be choosing a less attacking formation like 4-4-2. Scoring goals is the No.1 problem so I can't see having less forwards is going to help. 4-4-2 means just bunching more through the middle.
4-3-3 would be better, but at the end of the day, its the same uncreative midfielders you have to choose from. Aside from Mowatt, we have no creative midfielders, and certainly none in the Pereira bracket (or even Stefan Johansen bracket). I can't really see how Robinson, Livermore, Mulumby are going to be more effective players in another formation.
Up top its the various combinations we've already seen + Dike. I am hoping that Dike is going to make a difference. He definitely is a player who can use his body, which may unsettle a few defences and set up more chances. O'Shea will improve us when he comes back, and introducing some Academy youngsters is good here and there, but they need to be good enough to help grind out results. Above all, we need an extra creative player playing behind the forwards, who also gets on the scoresheet. That should be the next priority.
So, because, hypothetically, you think other systems won't work, we should stay with one that clearly doesn't?
If he tried something different and it didn't work then he may get some sympathy , but, to keep doing EXACTLY, the same thing, and failing, is just mad.
433 would suit the forwards better and we don't need 5 at the back so it has to be worth a go surely?? If things don't change, in terms of results, he's going to lose his job, that's just a fact.
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A poster used the phrase "Amateur" to describe VI and that couldnt describe him better for me.
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Next week is huge for Ismael. A big win is needed to lift us. You can change formations and tactics as much as you want. If we still persist with a midfield or Moloumby Livermore and Reach then were not going to win much.
I've always been Val in. Today my feelings are changing. My major concern is who would we go for next. This is a bang average group of players. Where we are is where we should be.
We are the most predictable team in the division.
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Forget league position now as we are in a very false position. 17th on current form.
Happy with that?
How can you be in a false position?
And why do we need to forget league position?
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How can you be in a false position?
And why do we need to forget league position?
The last 10 games has us 17th. So just because we are currently hanging onto the playoffs does not mean a god damn thing. Talk about burying our heads in the sand.
Do you really think this utter charlatan will get us in the play offs?
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So, because, hypothetically, you think other systems won't work, we should stay with one that clearly doesn't?
If he tried something different and it didn't work then he may get some sympathy , but, to keep doing EXACTLY, the same thing, and failing, is just mad.
433 would suit the forwards better and we don't need 5 at the back so it has to be worth a go surely?? If things don't change, in terms of results, he's going to lose his job, that's just a fact.
But if you change a formation just for the sake of it, it looks like you don't know what you're doing. There must be reason why another formation would be better.
I think a 4-3-3 may not be any worse, but you sacrifice the 2 wing backs, or at least they would not have the same license to add to the attack. Then its a question of whetehr Mowatt with Livermore and Mulumby offer more creativity. I've got my doubts.
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i think he is with us until the end of the season, he says all the right things but is just not showing it on the pitch. I think he fits most of the owner's requirements, he works within a tight budget, plays to a system that is less demanding of high paid players, doesn't criticize the club and interviews well. The only down side for the owner is he will most likely not get us promoted and the football played is agricultural at best.
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i think he is with us until the end of the season, he says all the right things but is just not showing it on the pitch. I think he fits most of the owner's requirements, he works within a tight budget, plays to a system that is less demanding of high paid players, doesn't criticize the club and interviews well. The only down side for the owner is he will most likely not get us promoted and the football played is agricultural at best.
What a bold statement. Predicting a manager will last more than nine months - perilous on this web site, most forum members are on their fifth manager by that point.
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What juvenile rubbish, your post isn’t even funny, not even with a tragic emoji of self congratulation.
I’m just pleased that the usual doomsayers on here get to have so much fun this evening, having a good moan.
There is no need to be rude 82, I was actually complimenting you on your stoic defence of VI and the club.
This site is all about opinions, and we all have them. Many think that what we have witnessed over the past few months is not good. Yesterdays performance was once again disappointing and a lot of the responsibility for this lies with VI - he has had long enough to get them into a recognisable shape associated with 'Valball' [whatever that is]. Instead we are being served up with a team that is barely watchable, and certainly not a promotion contender at the moment.
All about opinions 82, I will refrain from the tragic emoji for you.
And that was never a penalty.
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The last 10 games has us 17th. So just because we are currently hanging onto the playoffs does not mean a god damn thing. Talk about burying our heads in the sand.
Do you really think this utter charlatan will get us in the play offs?
Yes.
But I’m still not happy with how things are right now.
So you take a snapshot of the season rather than the season as whole?
We are not promoted, relegated or mid table over the last 10 games. We are on a bit of a bad run. But still within touching distance, which says we have been decent for most of the season so far.
People blaming Val for players that should be able to finish half the chances that fall their way. They are not, this is why we are on a bad run. If those chances were finished we would be in the auto spots.
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How can you be in a false position?
And why do we need to forget league position?
I get what you are saying but form is very important. We are without doubt at the moment dropping down the table and if our current form continues will not even be in the playoffs. If we can finish the season well then we should end up in the top six. Currently we would be hard to beat especially over two games but we would also struggle to win due to our lack of creativity and goals.
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Take away the first 5 games and we will a lower bottom half team under this guy, make no bones about it
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Take away the first 5 games and we will a lower bottom half team under this guy, make no bones about it
That's an interesting comment Gaz, so win the next 5 games & we're ok?
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That's an interesting comment Gaz, so win the next 5 games & we're ok?
If we win the next 5 games there would be no one happier but I don't see it happening at all. If it hasn't worked for 20 games and no changes have been made what makes you think things will change in the next 5?
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That's an interesting comment Gaz, so win the next 5 games & we're ok?
Win the next 5 games and something will have clearly 'clicked' and we are well and truly back in the game.
Unfortunately John we have been waiting for this to happen for quite some time now. Gazza's comment is correct, if it were not for our early season results we would not be in our lofty 5th place. There is a marked difference in our form after we went to Stoke and lost.
I would love to win our next 5 games, but it simply isn't going to happen with our present set up.
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Over the last 12 matches we are in 18th place in the form table. Shocking if not appalling for the squad we have compared generally to the squads we are playing.
To clarify I haven't picked that number of games for any particular reason but it's don't the rounds on Twitter in general for all clubs.
If it's not down to VI ability and he is just so unlucky then bin him off regardless because you don't want cursed people in charge. Who wants to be in League 1 in 2 years saying "oh poor guy, he's so unlucky"
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If we win the next 5 games there would be no one happier but I don't see it happening at all. If it hasn't worked for 20 games and no changes have been made what makes you think things will change in the next 5?
I only saw the highlights of yesterday's game, but according to commentators, Dike was lively when he came on.
For a number of reasons, some of which, you could credit to the manager, we set up with a makeshift defense yesterday, which was breached in the 89th minute.
Apart from the Fulham game, nobody has taken us apart, in almost all games we're just missing.
Confidence is very low in the football club at the moment, but a win could change that very quickly.
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Yes.
But I’m still not happy with how things are right now.
So you take a snapshot of the season rather than the season as whole?
We are not promoted, relegated or mid table over the last 10 games. We are on a bit of a bad run. But still within touching distance, which says we have been decent for most of the season so far.
People blaming Val for players that should be able to finish half the chances that fall their way. They are not, this is why we are on a bad run. If those chances were finished we would be in the auto spots.
I seriously admire your optimism, I really do but this is not a bad run IMO.
We have had probably 2/3 good games under him, which and I hate to say it, are more down to how bad the opposition has been rather than how we’ve played. Also by the law of averages this will happen over that many games he’s managed.
In all other games we’ve had 10/15 minute patches, still not looked like scoring mind, and been woeful for the rest. I have seen nothing that improves my club. Players have gone backwards, you surely can’t argue that? Tactically we’ve become a one trick pony and pretty much everyone we’ve played has worked us out now. It’s really not hard to play against us. The quality of our passing, crossing, shooting are all worse under his coaching.
10 games can be classed as a dreadful run, but in a league this bad presently and against the opposition he’s faced it isn’t. It’s a pattern of bad management and a man who doesn’t understand why things aren’t changing.
He loses to Fergie’s outfit the board won’t have a choice. 10k crowds and the abuse soon focus the mind.
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I only saw the highlights of yesterday's game, but according to commentators, Dike was lively when he came on.
For a number of reasons, some of which, you could credit to the manager, we set up with a makeshift defense yesterday, which was breached in the 89th minute.
Apart from the Fulham game, nobody has taken us apart, in almost all games we're just missing.
Confidence is very low in the football club at the moment, but a win could change that very quickly.
Confidence plays a huge part in sport we were confident when the season started we have zero confidence now, as you say a couple of wins could quickly turn that around.
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I only saw the highlights of yesterday's game, but according to commentators, Dike was lively when he came on.
For a number of reasons, some of which, you could credit to the manager, we set up with a makeshift defense yesterday, which was breached in the 89th minute.
Apart from the Fulham game, nobody has taken us apart, in almost all games we're just missing.
Confidence is very low in the football club at the moment, but a win could change that very quickly.
I'd say you are right normally regarding form and we did get 2 wins on the trot when Val couldn't choose his default team but as soon as his players came back he went back to what we know fails.
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I only saw the highlights of yesterday's game, but according to commentators, Dike was lively when he came on.
For a number of reasons, some of which, you could credit to the manager, we set up with a makeshift defense yesterday, which was breached in the 89th minute.
Apart from the Fulham game, nobody has taken us apart, in almost all games we're just missing.
Confidence is very low in the football club at the moment, but a win could change that very quickly.
Confidence is low because the players are looking at a manager and thinking this guy hasn’t got a clue.
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Confidence plays a huge part in sport we were confident when the season started we have zero confidence now, as you say a couple of wins could quickly turn that around.
Of course it could. There is a long way to go yet. We do have to break out of this bad run soon though. Here’s hoping we start to do that next Saturday.
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I only saw the highlights of yesterday's game, but according to commentators, Dike was lively when he came on.
For a number of reasons, some of which, you could credit to the manager, we set up with a makeshift defense yesterday, which was breached in the 89th minute.
Apart from the Fulham game, nobody has taken us apart, in almost all games we're just missing.
Confidence is very low in the football club at the moment, but a win could change that very quickly.
He looked useful when he came on and I can see him forming a good partnership with Grant. Had he laid that one ball off to Dike when we hit them on the break then this would be a different forum. Dike was completely unmarked and flying towards their goal. He was also very physical which is also good to see as I think we have been a bit powder puff up front.
The next few games will be very interesting, and hopefully the board will back Val with further acquisitions.
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That looks to be true, fair point. Maybe he'll end up at Everton soon? If not though, if he's ambitious he may consider a change to his wages somehow to be at a club with more of a chance of success? Maybe an option of a healthy promotion bonus or something?
He might be notionally “earning†£90k a week but I’m not sure he’s actually being paid it!
I’ve been very impressed with him as a leader and galvaniser as well as a coach. He’s getting every last ounce out of the resources he’s got available. His interviews have been very impressive. He’s clearly matured and he has a big future as a manager.
Is he ready for the Premier League? Probably not. It would be a huge gamble but I could see Everton taking it although I suspect they may go foreign. Another job with a club around our level in the Championship may well be what he needs right now as part of his progression.
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The problem is central midfield and not creating chances to win football matches. Ismael has done nothing to address it.
Yesterday he could've used Gardner-Hickman and Castro but again he picked Livermore and Molumby.
We've had 2 weeks of the window, he could've brought someone in on a free.
He even fell out with Snodgrass who might've been able to produce something.
Our best performance was a high tempo victory at Coventry without Livermore.
I've had enough to be quite frank, just seems incompetence of the highest order.
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Yesterday on its own wasn’t a problem. So we got hit with a bit of a sucker punch in away game with 6 players out, so what, it happens.
The form over a longer period and our lack of ability in the final third is a major problem though and I think VI is in trouble. The players are letting him down but he’s going to be the one who takes responsibility if this keeps up.
Unbeaten at home, good defensively, but terrible away and can’t score. I’ve never seen anything like it.
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Yesterday on its own wasn’t a problem. So we got hit with a bit of a sucker punch in away game with 6 players out, so what, it happens.
The form over a longer period and our lack of ability in the final third is a major problem though and I think VI is in trouble. The players are letting him down but he’s going to be the one who takes responsibility if this keeps up.
Unbeaten at home, good defensively, but terrible away and can’t score. I’ve never seen anything like it.
I agree. I think he’s in trouble.
This isn’t a great squad - probably our worst in 20 years. But after overperforming early on it’s now clearly underperforming, and has been for some time.
I’ve slept on it but feel the same way this morning. Good coaches make ordinary players and teams better; this one is making things worse.
He needs results. Fast.
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But if you change a formation just for the sake of it, it looks like you don't know what you're doing. There must be reason why another formation would be better.
I think a 4-3-3 may not be any worse, but you sacrifice the 2 wing backs, or at least they would not have the same license to add to the attack. Then its a question of whetehr Mowatt with Livermore and Mulumby offer more creativity. I've got my doubts.
It's not for the sake of it though Alex, it's because the current system isn't working.
In the 343 the "wingbacks" are either full backs or wingers, rarely are they part of the midfield, which means the midfield 2 are overrun out of possession and under too much pressure in possession.. If we went 433, we would, therefore, IMO, actually go from 2 to 3 in the middle, which would open the game up and give the front 3 more opportunity to make runs. It would also make the opposition think twice about offering us so much possession.
Due to injury, there were 10 minutes left when they scored and what did Val do? Nothing. He just stood and watched us lose with his hands in his pockets. His rigidity is just bizarre. Even a kid playing Football Manager would have the nous to realise changes are required at that stage.
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My preferred set up is 352, I think it would work well with this squad
I agree that having 2 in midfield is a purely theoretical system, but in reality it does not work.
My system is much more fluid but very strong also, as it is both defensive and attacking
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Vals system requires ALL the players to buy into it, and frankly I don't believe that most of them do. MOST good managers will tweak their preferred system in order to accommodate certain players and styles. This guy has shown zero flexibility since day one. The longer the season goes on the easier other teams will be able to play us, as they know exactly what to expect. I'm sure he realises it isn't working, but like so many managers before him, he hasn't got the will or ideas to do anything else. And having a 4 year deal in his pocket he is the one laughing all the way to the bank. I was all for a bit of long term stability, but NOT with this guy. I never wanted him, the club didn't have him as first choice, but here we are. I fear a mass player revolt at some point. This simply cannot continue - Either we start to win immediately, or he goes. The squad isn't that good, but for a Championship of this years quality it is more than good enough. We are now in catch 22 - If we go up we will be slaughtered most weeks. If we dont go up, we are certainly stuck with Mr Lai for the considerable future.
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Haven't posted much this season but I thought I'd chime in for a change. I've seen some people say most players have gone backwards under VI, but the stats don't back that up. Here are a few comparisons to our last promotion season and in the case of Grant to his last season in the Championship with Huddersfield:
Callum Robinson:
| Season | Apps | Mins | Goals | Assists | Yel | Red | SpG | PS% | Rating |
| 2021/2022 | 18(6) | 1511 | 5 | 6 | 1 | - | 2.6 | 64.4 | 6.73 |
| 2019/2020 | 10(6) | 855 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | 2.5 | 75.1 | 6.80 |
Darnell Furlong:
| Season | Apps | Mins | Goals | Assists | Yel | Red | SpG | PS% | Rating |
| 2021/2022 | 23(1) | 2044 | - | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1.4 | 53.2 | 6.90 |
| 2019/2020 | 22(9) | 2239 | 2 | 1 | 5 | - | 0.8 | 69.6 | 6.81 |
Matt Phillips
| Season | Apps | Mins | Goals | Assists | Yel | Red | SpG | PS% | Rating |
| 2021/2022 | 13(7) | 1140 | 3 | 2 | - | - | 1.6 | 65.3 | 6.61 |
| 2019/2020 | 30(9) | 2431 | 7 | 6 | 5 | - | 1.6 | 77.9 | 6.80 |
Karlan Grant
| Season | Apps | Mins | Goals | Assists | Yel | Red | SpG | PS% | Rating |
| 2021/2022 | 24(1) | 1975 | 9 | 4 | 2 | - | 2.4 | 70.5 | 6.93 |
| 2019/2020 | 42(1) | 3704 | 19 | 4 | 3 | - | 2.6 | 74 | 6.90 |
All pretty much par for the course at the moment, no major regressions and Grant looks on course to equal his impressive season with Huddersfield. Passing accuracy has gone down, that's definitely down to being more direct and in the case of Furlong hitting god awful crosses.
All I see is the same average players they have always been with us, only last time they had Pereira (and an on form Sawyers for half a season) to drag them up. Pereira even made HRK look good at times for christ sake. Hopefully Dike can be that guy to lift us over the coming weeks, he certainly looks promising. I also think that Robinson looked a lot better after Dike came on, after being largely rubbish up until then, hopefully him and Grant can up their game with proper focal point in attack.
Am I 100% happy with VI? No. Would I like him to try a 4-3-3? Definitely. Do I want him to drop Livermore for someone better? Yes (I haven't posted his stats here as they are too depressing), but I don't think we have much better at the moment. I don't believe for a minute that sacking the manager would do any good at this early stage. We are in a rebuild and that takes time, sacking the manager just puts us back to square one with little hope (imo) of improving much in the short term either.
I was quite exited by the first few games with the high intensity, forcing opponents into errors. If I have to wait for a few more months to get a team that can consistently perform that way then I am willing to wait. I actually also don't believe that we have been boring or completely rubbish for most of the season either really, but that is another debate and this post is already getting much too long as it is... :D
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Haven't posted much this season but I thought I'd chime in for a change. I've seen some people say most players have gone backwards under VI, but the stats don't back that up. Here are a few comparisons to our last promotion season and in the case of Grant to his last season in the Championship with Huddersfield:
Callum Robinson:
| Season | Apps | Mins | Goals | Assists | Yel | Red | SpG | PS% | Rating |
| 2021/2022 | 18(6) | 1511 | 5 | 6 | 1 | - | 2.6 | 64.4 | 6.73 |
| 2019/2020 | 10(6) | 855 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | 2.5 | 75.1 | 6.80 |
Darnell Furlong:
| Season | Apps | Mins | Goals | Assists | Yel | Red | SpG | PS% | Rating |
| 2021/2022 | 23(1) | 2044 | - | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1.4 | 53.2 | 6.90 |
| 2019/2020 | 22(9) | 2239 | 2 | 1 | 5 | - | 0.8 | 69.6 | 6.81 |
Matt Phillips
| Season | Apps | Mins | Goals | Assists | Yel | Red | SpG | PS% | Rating |
| 2021/2022 | 13(7) | 1140 | 3 | 2 | - | - | 1.6 | 65.3 | 6.61 |
| 2019/2020 | 30(9) | 2431 | 7 | 6 | 5 | - | 1.6 | 77.9 | 6.80 |
Karlan Grant
| Season | Apps | Mins | Goals | Assists | Yel | Red | SpG | PS% | Rating |
| 2021/2022 | 24(1) | 1975 | 9 | 4 | 2 | - | 2.4 | 70.5 | 6.93 |
| 2019/2020 | 42(1) | 3704 | 19 | 4 | 3 | - | 2.6 | 74 | 6.90 |
All pretty much par for the course at the moment, no major regressions and Grant looks on course to equal his impressive season with Huddersfield. Passing accuracy has gone down, that's definitely down to being more direct and in the case of Furlong hitting god awful crosses.
All I see is the same average players they have always been with us, only last time they had Pereira (and an on form Sawyers for half a season) to drag them up. Pereira even made HRK look good at times for christ sake. Hopefully Dike can be that guy to lift us over the coming weeks, he certainly looks promising. I also think that Robinson looked a lot better after Dike came on, after being largely rubbish up until then, hopefully him and Grant can up their game with proper focal point in attack.
Am I 100% happy with VI? No. Would I like him to try a 4-3-3? Definitely. Do I want him to drop Livermore for someone better? Yes (I haven't posted his stats here as they are too depressing), but I don't think we have much better at the moment. I don't believe for a minute that sacking the manager would do any good at this early stage. We are in a rebuild and that takes time, sacking the manager just puts us back to square one with little hope (imo) of improving much in the short term either.
I was quite exited by the first few games with the high intensity, forcing opponents into errors. If I have to wait for a few more months to get a team that can consistently perform that way then I am willing to wait. I actually also don't believe that we have been boring or completely rubbish for most of the season either really, but that is another debate and this post is already getting much too long as it is... :D
You really can’t compare a prem season to a champ though surely? Especially a championship this weak?
I mean playing bloody Barnsley isn’t Man City.
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You really can’t compare a prem season to a champ though surely? Especially a championship this weak?
I mean playing bloody Barnsley isn’t Man City.
That's why I'm comparing the current season to the last season in the championship. 🤔
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You really can’t compare a prem season to a champ though surely? Especially a championship this weak?
I mean playing bloody Barnsley isn’t Man City.
You obviously haven't read or studied his post.
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That's why I'm comparing the current season to the last season in the championship. 🤔
Apologises.
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The board knew he plays a high pressing game some fans were also aware of this, yet we bring him in, fail to buy any players that play this way and expect the current squad to all match up with this system. Clear example the striker he wanted in august we get in January and instead have hugill on loan. We can’t keep changing managers yet keep the same squad, better forward planning is a must otherwise we need a brand new team every time we change the boss
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It’s all a bit the same isn’t it? Nothing different, same old, same old.
The more work we do on the training pitch the poorer we become.
I cannot see any evidence of a side that is well coached. I cannot see what we intend to do on that pitch. Our games resemble a tennis match as the ball goes from one end to the other often with little quality.
The second half yesterday was extremely poor - a back three and central midfield with aimless clearances and flicks on within their own half. Gifting away possession freely.
We’re pinning an awful lot of hope on Dike to be the answer - whilst his impact will be positive he is not going to be the saviour for this bunch. More so because we will not provide him with any quality aside from balls into the channel or into his head.
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Just watched Hull v Stoke. Scary how much we look like Hull.
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The board knew he plays a high pressing game some fans were also aware of this, yet we bring him in, fail to buy any players that play this way and expect the current squad to all match up with this system. Clear example the striker he wanted in august we get in January and instead have hugill on loan. We can’t keep changing managers yet keep the same squad, better forward planning is a must otherwise we need a brand new team every time we change the boss
I agree. He was a poor appointment. He knew he didn't fit in here as the squad stood and the board surely knew they couldn't afford the plethora of players he needs. As we look back it's just a terrible appointment. Cut ties with rubbish before there is nothing left.
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We should cut before we lose any chance of promotion but I just don’t see it happening. I think he is here until the end of the season minimum. If we build a team around his philosophy in the summer he will be here even longer.
Would love to be wrong but I think he is a radical idea with no application.
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Is anybody not expecting performances and results to pick up once we have Johnstone, O'Shea, Bartley, Mowatt, Dike starting alongside each other? Throw in Grady and TGH alongside that core and we should be a force. Seems pretty obvious to me that we are struggling with the omission of key players are the moment.
Our best team IMV:
Grant, Dike, Robinson
Reach, Mowatt, Molumby*, TGH, Furlong* (*with reluctance)
Clarke, Bartley, Dara
Johnstone
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Is anybody not expecting performances and results to pick up once we have Johnstone, O'Shea, Bartley, Mowatt, Dike starting alongside each other? Throw in Grady and TGH alongside that core and we should be a force. Seems pretty obvious to me that we are struggling with the omission of key players are the moment.
Our best team IMV:
Grant, Dike, Robinson
Reach, Mowatt, Molumby*, TGH, Furlong* (*with reluctance)
Clarke, Bartley, Dara
Johnstone
I’m not anti VI, but bar Dara and Dike most of the above have been available to us throughout the poor spell.
We haven’t struggled defensively, so although Dara may help us improve, he’s not going to revolutionise anything. It still comes back to Dike needing to be the major game changer unless others can up their game.
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It's not for the sake of it though Alex, it's because the current system isn't working.
In the 343 the "wingbacks" are either full backs or wingers, rarely are they part of the midfield, which means the midfield 2 are overrun out of possession and under too much pressure in possession.. If we went 433, we would, therefore, IMO, actually go from 2 to 3 in the middle, which would open the game up and give the front 3 more opportunity to make runs. It would also make the opposition think twice about offering us so much possession.
Due to injury, there were 10 minutes left when they scored and what did Val do? Nothing. He just stood and watched us lose with his hands in his pockets. His rigidity is just bizarre. Even a kid playing Football Manager would have the nous to realise changes are required at that stage.
I'm not against there being a 4-3-3. In fact, its long been my favourite formation, because its attacking and it stretches oppo defences the most. Its just that everyone would need to re-learn their roles, including the kids.
If he did make the change to 4-3-3 it might give us slightly more control in midfield, although I don't buy your point that wingbacks can't be counted as part of it. But it mainly comes back to the quality of players.
A lot of people on here seem to think the players are "top 2" quality, and therefore have some sort of right to automatic promotion. In the Prem., the same players were 'carried' by the likes of Pereira, Yokuslu, Krovinovic, Gallager, Maitland Niles. Without the contribution of those players, our goals for column in the Prem would have made for really dismal reading. The defence has stayed pretty much the same, aside from Clarke, so you can see where the change has come. We have lost a lot of quality in midfield. It would be interesting to see 4-3-3, but don't expect too much difference in performance with the same players.
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Is anybody not expecting performances and results to pick up once we have Johnstone, O'Shea, Bartley, Mowatt, Dike starting alongside each other? Throw in Grady and TGH alongside that core and we should be a force. Seems pretty obvious to me that we are struggling with the omission of key players are the moment.
Our best team IMV:
Grant, Dike, Robinson
Reach, Mowatt, Molumby*, TGH, Furlong* (*with reluctance)
Clarke, Bartley, Dara
Johnstone
It would help 82 if we could field 12 players. 😎
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Is anybody not expecting performances and results to pick up once we have Johnstone, O'Shea, Bartley, Mowatt, Dike starting alongside each other? Throw in Grady and TGH alongside that core and we should be a force. Seems pretty obvious to me that we are struggling with the omission of key players are the moment.
Our best team IMV:
Grant, Dike, Robinson
Reach, Mowatt, Molumby*, TGH, Furlong* (*with reluctance)
Clarke, Bartley, Dara
Johnstone
Mostly agree, but Townsend instead of Reach every time for me.
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We still need to play with 11 players no matter how limited Val is guys.
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We still need to play with 11 players no matter how limited Val is guys.
I guarantee we still wouldn’t score with 12 and he’d still make the same subs at 60 minutes.
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I guarantee we still wouldn’t score with 12 and he’d still make the same subs at 60 minutes.
I'd like to disagree but you are probably right.
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Mostly agree, but Townsend instead of Reach every time for me.
You might be right, I think they are quite evenly matched, Townsend has disappointed me over the last couple of months, especially with his crossing.
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But if you change a formation just for the sake of it, it looks like you don't know what you're doing. There must be reason why another formation would be better.
I think a 4-3-3 may not be any worse, but you sacrifice the 2 wing backs, or at least they would not have the same license to add to the attack. Then its a question of whetehr Mowatt with Livermore and Mulumby offer more creativity. I've got my doubts.
At the very least you adapt to counter / outwit the opposition. Basic in game management- VI is failing at this
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I guarantee we still wouldn’t score with 12 and he’d still make the same subs at 60 minutes.
Knar thn we wouldn't score if we played 12 against 10 en tha ad no goalie I gyarantee it!
A poor attempt at Monty Python humour.
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Is anybody not expecting performances and results to pick up once we have Johnstone, O'Shea, Bartley, Mowatt, Dike starting alongside each other? Throw in Grady and TGH alongside that core and we should be a force. Seems pretty obvious to me that we are struggling with the omission of key players are the moment.
Our best team IMV:
Grant, Dike, Robinson
Reach, Mowatt, Molumby*, TGH, Furlong* (*with reluctance)
Clarke, Bartley, Dara
Johnstone
Reach and Molumby aren'''t good enough and Furlong is poor as well. I wouldn't be expecting much from Diangana either he has been off form now for 2 years.
I'm not much for this manager but looking at the players available to him it`s no wonder the season is in danger of coming off the rails.
One thing I do blame him for is Matt Phillips new contract, we would have been in a position to offload him at the end of this season.
The club should have gone and got the manager they wanted in the summer instead of settling for 3rd or 4th choice and needlessly having to pay compensation in the procees.
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Reach and Molumby aren'''t good enough and Furlong is poor as well. I wouldn't be expecting much from Diangana either he has been off form now for 2 years.
I'm not much for this manager but looking at the players available to him it`s no wonder the season is in danger of coming off the rails.
One thing I do blame him for is Matt Phillips new contract, we would have been in a position to offload him at the end of this season.
The club should have gone and got the manager they wanted in the summer instead of settling for 3rd or 4th choice and needlessly having to pay compensation in the procees.
Reach and Mulumby were bought in by Val.
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Reach and Mulumby were bought in by Val.
Bought in whilst he was manager. They both scream of Albion recruitment team options. Do you really think he arrived at the ground with their names scribbled on a bit of paper? These are the ones I want!!! Both were cheap and available, I'm sure Reach has been linked with us before. It wouldn't surprise me if Molomby only came to the club's attention whilst arranging the Clarke deal.
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Bought in whilst he was manager. They both scream of Albion recruitment team options. Do you really think he arrived at the ground with their names scribbled on a bit of paper? These are the ones I want!!! Both were cheap and available, I'm sure Reach has been linked with us before. It wouldn't surprise me if Molomby only came to the club's attention whilst arranging the Clarke deal.
I believe Molomby came to our attention following a loan at Milwall, also he is an international colleague of Dara O'Shea.
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Reach and Mulumby were bought in by Val.
That’s just hypothetical to protect his reputation. At the end of the day he endorsed both so, he was either happy with them or is a weak yes man
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Bought in whilst he was manager. They both scream of Albion recruitment team options. Do you really think he arrived at the ground with their names scribbled on a bit of paper? These are the ones I want!!! Both were cheap and available, I'm sure Reach has been linked with us before. It wouldn't surprise me if Molomby only came to the club's attention whilst arranging the Clarke deal.
Pretty convenient to wrote off certain signings as having nothing to do with Val, but then other signings are his masterstroke.
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I don't think we should pin the blame on signings at Val's door. He is operating under a budget. The only disaster was Hugill, although Molumby has been underwhelming.
He simply fails to pick the best players and best system for matches over and over again. That's where the fault lies, simple.
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Pretty convenient to wrote off certain signings as having nothing to do with Val, but then other signings are his masterstroke.
Tend to think that some members of the forum don't recognise the network of contacts that the club has in recruiting players.
There are a number of ex players & managers who have left us on good terms, they could all make recommendations, as we could for them.
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Tend to think that some members of the forum don't recognise the network of contacts that the club has in recruiting players.
There are a number of ex players & managers who have left us on good terms, they could all make recommendations, as we could for them.
Surely that's even worse?
With Val being so regimented in his style of play, he almost requires autonomy in making / endorsing signings. If you are saying that there is a network of people doing this and the likes of Reach, Mulumby and Hugill are being signed regardless, just because they are cheap, then how can this project ever work? We would surely be better with a more generic, flexible manager who has more than one system in his locker.
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Surely that's even worse?
With Val being so regimented in his style of play, he almost requires autonomy in making / endorsing signings. If you are saying that there is a network of people doing this and the likes of Reach, Mulumby and Hugill are being signed regardless, just because they are cheap, then how can this project ever work? We would surely be better with a more generic, flexible manager who has more than one system in his locker.
So, if you were making a recommendation who would be yours ?
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Surely that's even worse?
With Val being so regimented in his style of play, he almost requires autonomy in making / endorsing signings. If you are saying that there is a network of people doing this and the likes of Reach, Mulumby and Hugill are being signed regardless, just because they are cheap, then how can this project ever work? We would surely be better with a more generic, flexible manager who has more than one system in his locker.
We would be better with an owner who invested in the club otherwise whoever is the manager we would still be signing the cheap options the Hugill and Reach of this world.
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I don't think we should pin the blame on signings at Val's door. He is operating under a budget. The only disaster was Hugill, although Molumby has been underwhelming.
He simply fails to pick the best players and best system for matches over and over again. That's where the fault lies, simple.
On that basis who would you have picked in the XI Saturday, not the system just the players ?
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We would be better with an owner who invested in the club otherwise whoever is the manager we would still be signing the cheap options the Hugill and Reach of this world.
I don't, necessarily, disagree but, to replace the owner, you need someone with £200m to splash, who fancies buying a football club. Not so many of them about.
My point is that, if we are restricted to cheaps and frees, and these are ordained by a recruitment panel, then a manager as niche in his approach as Val is never going to work, surely?
Personally, I think he endorsed all of Reach, Mulumby and Hugill and they didn't all work out, which is fine, all signings are risky and all managers get them wrong from time to time. What I can't have is the good signings being his and the bad ones down to the club.
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I don't, necessarily, disagree but, to replace the owner, you need someone with £200m to splash, who fancies buying a football club. Not so many of them about.
My point is that, if we are restricted to cheaps and frees, and these are ordained by a recruitment panel, then a manager as niche in his approach as Val is never going to work, surely?
Personally, I think he endorsed all of Reach, Mulumby and Hugill and they didn't all work out, which is fine, all signings are risky and all managers get them wrong from time to time. What I can't have is the good signings being his and the bad ones down to the club.
My point is no manager would knowingly endorse cheap players it was a choice of take it or leave it.
What we do know is VI wanted Mowatt and Dike the rest are made up of the above and loanees who all have Championship experience.
This isn't trying to shift blame it's just saying it has it is I'm sure there is enough ammunition to fire at VI without manufacturing stuff.
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On that basis who would you have picked in the XI Saturday, not the system just the players ?
I stated elsewhere that it should have been Furlong RB, Livermore CB, Gardner-Hickman CM.
Also we have an AM on the bench in Castro that could be tried to solve the goalscoring issue.
Point 1) he persisted way too long with Hugill, when it was clear he was no good.
Point 2) for differing reasons Gardner-Hickman, Snodgrass, Mulumbu and Castro have all had very limited game time in central midfield, while Livermore has played 90% of the time.
Ismael has brought on a lot of the problems we are now facing himself IMO.
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My point is no manager would knowingly endorse cheap players it was a choice of take it or leave it.
What we do know is VI wanted Mowatt and Dike the rest are made up of the above and loanees who all have Championship experience.
This isn't trying to shift blame it's just saying it has it is I'm sure there is enough ammunition to fire at VI without manufacturing stuff.
Of course they do. Mowatt was free, yet you agree he endorsed that one!
With the others, I would imagine he was given options, within budget (which he was aware of when he took the job), and he had the final say.
I'm not manufacturing anything, they were all bought in on his watch so he takes credit for the good ones and responsibility for the bad ones. It is you who are trying to separate the two.
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Surely that's even worse?
With Val being so regimented in his style of play, he almost requires autonomy in making / endorsing signings. If you are saying that there is a network of people doing this and the likes of Reach, Mulumby and Hugill are being signed regardless, just because they are cheap, then how can this project ever work? We would surely be better with a more generic, flexible manager who has more than one system in his locker.
I hope VI does have autonomy in making/endorsing signings, it's difficult to see how he's accountable if he doesn't.
I'm suggesting that there is a multi-layer network whose job it is to identify players & yes, costs have to be part of the decision making process.
This is the conundrum in sacking VI, there would probably be a number of candidates who have the capability to replace him, but could they do it with the same cost constraints that VI has?
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On thin ice according to Chris Lepkowski. big game saturday then
https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1112138291?-11200:789
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On thin ice according to Chris Lepkowski. big game saturday then
https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1112138291?-11200:789
Should have been under the ice a while ago.
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Same tactics, same subs, no plan B. He must be sooo easy for opposition managers to play against. However I think we will win next weekend.
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I hope VI does have autonomy in making/endorsing signings, it's difficult to see how he's accountable if he doesn't.
I'm suggesting that there is a multi-layer network whose job it is to identify players & yes, costs have to be part of the decision making process.
This is the conundrum in sacking VI, there would probably be a number of candidates who have the capability to replace him, but could they do it with the same cost constraints that VI has?
And that's my point, a manager with such a rigid, one-dimensional approach, limits an already severely limited budget even further because so many players simply do not fit his system.
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On thin ice according to Chris Lepkowski. big game saturday then
https://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1112138291?-11200:789
Personally, I think VI might be in trouble, but I don't agree with Lepkowski.
Apart from the FA Cup game against Brighton, there is nothing to suggest our gates will fall to the high teens.
We get around £7 million a year from gate receipts & around 75% of home tickets sold are season tickets, so it's unlikely low gates would have a significant effect on revenue.
On the other hand, gaps in the crowd on tv can be used as stick to beat the manager with.
Bear in mind, Lepkowski & Goldberg have a greater interest in getting people to listen to their podcast, than the well being of WBAFC.
I listen to the podcast because it's good entertainment, but there again I also like gogglebox on tv, which has just about the same relevance.
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And that's my point, a manager with such a rigid, one-dimensional approach, limits an already severely limited budget even further because so many players simply do not fit his system.
Will be even worse when he leaves and it's hard to flog 'em.
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And that's my point, a manager with such a rigid, one-dimensional approach, limits an already severely limited budget even further because so many players simply do not fit his system.
I agree the substitutions are predictable, but I don't agree that the 3:4:3 formation is rigid.
The reason so many teams play 3:4:3 is it's flexibility, but it does mean that players in some positions have to work hard, which is why, I suspect VI makes changes at around 60 minutes.
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Will be even worse when he leaves and it's hard to flog 'em.
You often make that point Gaz, but who have we signed permanently in VI's tenure who would be difficult to sell on?
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Lose Saturday and he’s gone.
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You often make that point Gaz, but who have we signed permanently in VI's tenure who would be difficult to sell on?
It's more in response to people saying let him sign his players. On the surface i see the sense in that but when i stop for a second and think about it it doesn't feel such a good idea.
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Lose Saturday and he’s gone.
Well hopefully we will win so that will not be the case. I expect a victory on Saturday.
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Will be even worse when he leaves and it's hard to flog 'em.
I don't think we will have a problem selling Mowatt and Dike for a large profit who else has signed permanently?
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It's more in response to people saying let him sign his players. On the surface i see the sense in that but when i stop for a second and think about it it doesn't feel such a good idea.
It simply doesnt make sense to let managers "make teams in a specific format, then sack them, then instill another format and repeat" the club hierarchy recognised this and hence the 4 year contract. Sadly, it looks like VI is SO intransigent and SO dogmatic that he is CAUSING the plan to unravel.
I worry that Ken has got so much invested in VI and the plan (VI, staff, Mowatt, Dyke) that he will let things run too long and damage the club. We have to hope that Ken has a manager identified who has a similar "Gegenpress strategy" but better management ability. Its unlikely but thats my hope!
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I don't think we will have a problem selling Mowatt and Dike for a large profit who else has signed permanently?
See my previous post
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It simply doesnt make sense to let managers "make teams in a specific format, then sack them, then instill another format and repeat" the club hierarchy recognised this and hence the 4 year contract. Sadly, it looks like VI is SO intransigent and SO dogmatic that he is CAUSING the plan to unravel.
I worry that Ken has got so much invested in VI and the plan (VI, staff, Mowatt, Dyke) that he will let things run too long and damage the club. We have to hope that Ken has a manager identified who has a similar "Gegenpress strategy" but better management ability. Its unlikely but thats my hope!
It's very worrying when you let a manager go too far in my view down a one way street. There needs to flexibility on all sides, club and manager. Sadly we've picked the most inflexible guy around.
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It's very worrying when you let a manager go too far in my view down a one way street. There needs to flexibility on all sides, club and manager. Sadly we've picked the most inflexible guy around.
possibly the 2nd most inflexible, the coward has the title of the the most inflexible guy around.
At least this guy tries to play in the opposition half.
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Lose Saturday and he’s gone.
Not when they've just spent £7m on a striker he won't be..
They're going to back him.
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possibly the 2nd most inflexible, the coward has the title of the the most inflexible guy around.
At least this guy tries to play in the opposition half.
The guy you are talking about is the guy i'm thinking of when saying i've seen this 'niche' manager transfer style before.
It took us a while to rid the club of what he left and that's my comparison in my mind.
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The guy you are talking about is the guy i'm thinking of when saying i've seen this 'niche' manager transfer style before.
It took us a while to rid the club of what he left and that's my comparison in my mind.
I cannot argue with that, we are still getting that pariahs stench out of the club !
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I cannot argue with that, we are still getting that pariahs stench out of the club !
Very true, there are some remnants left.
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I know this is true but did he need to say this ?
"The other big frustration is that we cannot play with our best players. We have injuries and suspensions. We have to manage it every game.
“When you have the best players on the pitch and on the bench able to come on you can have an impact on the game.
“At the minute it’s difficult because we are not able to get all our key players together and we’ve had that problem for many, many weeks now.
“We need them all back to create more momentum.
“I understand the criticism because we are not satisfied with the results.
“At some point, we need to understand our situation because we can’t play with our strongest team.
“We need to get our key players back.
How to de-motivate a large proportion of the guys whose job it is to perform for you! Seems he has his preferred players and thats that, we have to "understand our situation"
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The guy is as clumsy and demotivational as he is inflexible.
When we had 2 wins without 'Vals-pals' playing he couldn't wait to return to the garbage we'd witnessed prior to those wins for 10 games straight.
Get him gone.
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I know this is true but did he need to say this ?
"The other big frustration is that we cannot play with our best players. We have injuries and suspensions. We have to manage it every game.
“When you have the best players on the pitch and on the bench able to come on you can have an impact on the game.
“At the minute it’s difficult because we are not able to get all our key players together and we’ve had that problem for many, many weeks now.
“We need them all back to create more momentum.
“I understand the criticism because we are not satisfied with the results.
“At some point, we need to understand our situation because we can’t play with our strongest team.
“We need to get our key players back.
How to de-motivate a large proportion of the guys whose job it is to perform for you! Seems he has his preferred players and thats that, we have to "understand our situation"
Other teams have injuries and suspensions too, so this weekly excuse is wearing rather thin for me.
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I know this is true but did he need to say this ?
"The other big frustration is that we cannot play with our best players. We have injuries and suspensions. We have to manage it every game.
“When you have the best players on the pitch and on the bench able to come on you can have an impact on the game.
“At the minute it’s difficult because we are not able to get all our key players together and we’ve had that problem for many, many weeks now.
“We need them all back to create more momentum.
“I understand the criticism because we are not satisfied with the results.
“At some point, we need to understand our situation because we can’t play with our strongest team.
“We need to get our key players back.
How to de-motivate a large proportion of the guys whose job it is to perform for you! Seems he has his preferred players and thats that, we have to "understand our situation"
Who's he talking about?
Only Mowatt missing as an attacking outfield player. The likes of Bartley and Kipre would have very little impact on our inability to score and Button did a sterling job, with a couple of decent saves, good distribution and no fault for the goal.
He really is playing into the hands of his critics if 1 player changes everything.
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Other teams have injuries and suspensions too, so this weekly excuse is wearing rather thin for me.
Which may well mean others have better more balanced squads !
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Couple of things bothering me firstly and I haven’t checked but majority seem to be thinking Kipre is doing ok , have even seen some would have him in the team ahead of Bartley should everybody be available , to me it seems our poor run , 2 wins from 10 or whatever it is pretty much coincides with him becoming first choice . 2nd it is the job of coach to improve players , agreed but there seems to be no thought that perhaps this is as good as our lot are . The only one I can think of that we know can do better is Diangana and he has been off the pace before VI arrived . O Shea certainly seemed to have improved before his injury though it could just be down to experience. Of the others I don’t think there is one shred of injury that Grant , Robinson , Furlong, Phillips etc can play at a higher level than they are at now .
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Couple of things bothering me firstly and I haven’t checked but majority seem to be thinking Kipre is doing ok , have even seen some would have him in the team ahead of Bartley should everybody be available , to me it seems our poor run , 2 wins from 10 or whatever it is pretty much coincides with him becoming first choice . 2nd it is the job of coach to improve players , agreed but there seems to be no thought that perhaps this is as good as our lot are . The only one I can think of that we know can do better is Diangana and he has been off the pace before VI arrived . O Shea certainly seemed to have improved before his injury though it could just be down to experience. Of the others I don’t think there is one shred of injury that Grant , Robinson , Furlong, Phillips etc can play at a higher level than they are at now .
Fair enough, if you think the players are that bad and can't be improved, then surely you have to mitigate their deficiencies and play a system that better suits their ability.
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I’m still of the belief that Val was on a hiding to nothing, backed with free transfers of Reach, Bryan, Castro (?!) and loans of Hugill and Molumby (jury out on him) and no real class left to work with. There was always going to be a time we’d bump back to earth and now is that time.
The board have now backed him with Dike, I’d argue he could be backed more this January with another wide forward (Robinson is playing very poor at the moment, Grant has stopped scoring and Diangana has been jaded for a long time) but looks like we need to flog Zohore, Snods and send Hugill back before that can happen.
I’m not sure what the philosophy is after initially being impressed by the gegenpress style but if that’s what he wants to go back to eventually then in my opinion he has to be backed and that means sticking with him and giving him time and a team where all 11 buy into it.
Plan B is sack, hire, repeat which has bought us no success over the last few years now.
I say back him but I am growing frustrated with the insistence to start 343 even when we don’t have 2 fit centre backs let alone 3. I want the man to succeed but he has to show some flexibility and is showing absolutely no signs that he will do that.
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I am looking more and more enviously at a certain manager at Blackburn. Would any body have had him back at any point?
Two things we showed him tremendous support and he buggered off and secondly we got found out in the Premiership.
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The only significant change I would like to see him make is now we have Dike leave out two of Robinson , Grant , and Phillips ( let form and training ground decide) and play an extra midfielder in other words 352 . If that means we could get a fit and firing Diangana into the team so much the better but it looks a long shot at the moment
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Lets not discuss other managers whilst we have the current incumbent in charge :D
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The guy you are talking about is the guy i'm thinking of when saying i've seen this 'niche' manager transfer style before.
It took us a while to rid the club of what he left and that's my comparison in my mind.
Different scenario, he was given free reign to spend around £45 million capital that we had accumulated.
It's pretty clear from VI's interviews that he is holding a brief to add value to players either acquired or developed from our academy.
Recently, he used the words "improve the capital value of the squad".
IMO it's not the case that VI is inflexible, people who are paid to know these things state that the 3:4:3 formation is the most flexible option, which can morph into all sorts of other formations as the game develops.
I believe he has been pragmatic, & took the view that our strongest threat at the moment is from wide positions.
I only saw a glimpse of Dike on the highlights video, but even from that it's clear to see that he is strong & clever enough to act as a pivot in the final third. He gives us another dimension, not just scoring goals, but also as a provider.
I think VI is probably in trouble at the moment, but I hope the board give Dike the opportunity to make a difference.
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Different scenario, he was given free reign to spend around £45 million capital that we had accumulated.
It's pretty clear from VI's interviews that he is holding a brief to add value to players either acquired or developed from our academy.
Recently, he used the words "improve the capital value of the squad".
IMO it's not the case that VI is inflexible, people who are paid to know these things state that the 3:4:3 formation is the most flexible option, which can morph into all sorts of other formations as the game develops.
I believe he has been pragmatic, & took the view that our strongest threat at the moment is from wide positions.
I only saw a glimpse of Dike on the highlights video, but even from that it's clear to see that he is strong & clever enough to act as a pivot in the final third. He gives us another dimension, not just scoring goals, but also as a provider.
I think VI is probably in trouble at the moment, but I hope the board give Dike the opportunity to make a difference.
At the moment he hasn't done much damage financially i agree and i want us to keep it that way.
He has shown me nothing as a manager to suggest he's worthy of being backed. The only way he will succeed is if he's given £25m + etc in my view. He needs a lot of new bodies. Our squad and him are not particularly compatible. Dike and O'Shea being back will be like 2 new bodies but i feel he needs more than those 2 still. We will need to be very lucky and efficient to capture decent players on free transfers in the summer that will help us get promoted.
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Different scenario, he was given free reign to spend around £45 million capital that we had accumulated.
It's pretty clear from VI's interviews that he is holding a brief to add value to players either acquired or developed from our academy.
Recently, he used the words "improve the capital value of the squad".
IMO it's not the case that VI is inflexible, people who are paid to know these things state that the 3:4:3 formation is the most flexible option, which can morph into all sorts of other formations as the game develops.
I believe he has been pragmatic, & took the view that our strongest threat at the moment is from wide positions.
I only saw a glimpse of Dike on the highlights video, but even from that it's clear to see that he is strong & clever enough to act as a pivot in the final third. He gives us another dimension, not just scoring goals, but also as a provider.
I think VI is probably in trouble at the moment, but I hope the board give Dike the opportunity to make a difference.
Our goals scored column suggests he has got this very wrong.
Whatever systems do on paper or in simulations is irrelevant, it's how it transpires on the pitch that counts.
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So, if you were making a recommendation who would be yours ?
Any posts recommending a replacement manager will be deleted as it against forum rules. Anyone continuing to suggest replacements can expect a ban.
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Our goals scored column suggests he has got this very wrong.
Whatever systems do on paper or in simulations is irrelevant, it's how it transpires on the pitch that counts.
Not sure we can say that he got it very wrong.
He chose, or was persuaded, to take a punt on Jordan Hugil, unfortunately for both player & coach, it didn't work out.
He has convinced the owner, that buying Daryl Dike would be the catalyst to improve our goal scoring.
Personally, I'd like to see if that works out, & I think he needs around 5 games.
If there's no improvement after those 5 games, the board have a decision to make.
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Looks like we need 12 wins or so to get us into the playoffs, I can't see us making the top 2 now. Val's not going to change the system, so lets see if Dyke can make the difference in the goals scored column. He looked the part against QPR.
If it is the playoffs, it will be all about momentum, I hate to mention Villa, but that was what got them up. If Dyke gels with Robinson and/or Grant over the next few weeks we could be finishing the season with our tails up.
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Looks like we need 12 wins or so to get us into the playoffs, I can't see us making the top 2 now. Val's not going to change the system, so lets see if Dyke can make the difference in the goals scored column. He looked the part against QPR.
If it is the playoffs, it will be all about momentum, I hate to mention Villa, but that was what got them up. If Dyke gels with Robinson and/or Grant over the next few weeks we could be finishing the season with our tails up.
74pts currently would get you in the play-offs other than that your post is far too optimistic for this site!
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I stated elsewhere that it should have been Furlong RB, Livermore CB, Gardner-Hickman CM.
Also we have an AM on the bench in Castro that could be tried to solve the goalscoring issue.
Point 1) he persisted way too long with Hugill, when it was clear he was no good.
Point 2) for differing reasons Gardner-Hickman, Snodgrass, Mulumbu and Castro have all had very limited game time in central midfield, while Livermore has played 90% of the time.
Ismael has brought on a lot of the problems we are now facing himself IMO.
I have to say to you - that at this stage of his career Castro is simply not good enough
to start. He may improve as the season progresses and play a bit part towards the end of the season. What I gleam at the moment is he is a show pony, which I have no doubt the trainers will be working on . There is no doubt he has talent - he just needs refining .
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Not when they've just spent £7m on a striker he won't be..
They're going to back him.
Let us wait and see, I can’t for one minute think they’ll keep him if we lost against PBoro. The minute we drop out of the playoffs it’ll be bye bye Val. To not be in the top 6 with a league this weak is gross mismanagement.
Change the system, add a couple of Prem loans until the end of the season and we’d be fine. It really is that easy this season. I just don’t think his willing or even worse can even see this.
A bad run is 5 games. This guys on 12, how long before it’s just he’s not good enough?
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A little reminder for those who may be too young to remember what a real bad run looks like in the 95/96 season we went on a run of 14 matches without winning drawing one and losing 13 and guess what we didn't sack the manager so I wouldn't hold your breath for a change at the top anytime soon.
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A little reminder for those who may be too young to remember what a real bad run looks like in the 95/96 season we went on a run of 14 matches without winning drawing one and losing 13 and guess what we didn't sack the manager so I wouldn't hold your breath for a change at the top anytime soon.
Completely different regime from 25 years ago. Peace was very decisive, why do you think a new owner (and a new board) will revert to behaviour of a board 25 years ago they know nothing about. They said business as usual which IMO would be acting swiftly to make a change like Peace did.
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Apologies if this has already been posted or seen but, an interesting post yesterday in the Express & Dingle by a chap going by the name of pgtips. Trouble at mill it seems?
When you move in football circles you find the pool is quite small and you pick up snippets here and there. I’ve just had an interesting chat with an insider at WBA. He told me Snodgrass questioned VI’s tactics and asked if he could change it up a bit a row ensued and VI has frozen Snodders out. By all accounts Snodgrass is a well liked chap in the dressing room and some of the players persuaded him to speak to VI as he is a senior member of the squad. To say the squad isn’t happy with VI is an understatement according to this fellow. Semi Ajayi also had words with VI during the confrontation and initially put in a transfer request but it was later withdrawn. Call me a BS’er if you like but I do get to hear things being involved in the local youth football leagues.
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Let us wait and see, I can’t for one minute think they’ll keep him if we lost against PBoro. The minute we drop out of the playoffs it’ll be bye bye Val. To not be in the top 6 with a league this weak is gross mismanagement.
Change the system, add a couple of Prem loans until the end of the season and we’d be fine. It really is that easy this season. I just don’t think his willing or even worse can even see this.
A bad run is 5 games. This guys on 12, how long before it’s just he’s not good enough?
And that bad run is 5 games
Last 5 games are DLDLL (1 in a cup game against Prem opposition that we were coasting in at the time)
Previous 7 before that was WDLDDWW
So not it’s not a 12 game bad run.
It’s a 5 game bad run
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Apologies if this has already been posted or seen but, an interesting post yesterday in the Express & Dingle by a chap going by the name of pgtips. Trouble at mill it seems?
When you move in football circles you find the pool is quite small and you pick up snippets here and there. I’ve just had an interesting chat with an insider at WBA. He told me Snodgrass questioned VI’s tactics and asked if he could change it up a bit a row ensued and VI has frozen Snodders out. By all accounts Snodgrass is a well liked chap in the dressing room and some of the players persuaded him to speak to VI as he is a senior member of the squad. To say the squad isn’t happy with VI is an understatement according to this fellow. Semi Ajayi also had words with VI during the confrontation and initially put in a transfer request but it was later withdrawn. Call me a BS’er if you like but I do get to hear things being involved in the local youth football leagues.
These rumours have been doing the rounds for weeks if not months now......
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These rumours have been doing the rounds for weeks if not months now......
Not seen or heard them thar rumours Dan.
Yowm must have got yum ear closer t’ ground than me but I’ve been locked up for the last 12 months so that might explain lack of intel.
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Apologies if this has already been posted or seen but, an interesting post yesterday in the Express & Dingle by a chap going by the name of pgtips. Trouble at mill it seems?
When you move in football circles you find the pool is quite small and you pick up snippets here and there. I’ve just had an interesting chat with an insider at WBA. He told me Snodgrass questioned VI’s tactics and asked if he could change it up a bit a row ensued and VI has frozen Snodders out. By all accounts Snodgrass is a well liked chap in the dressing room and some of the players persuaded him to speak to VI as he is a senior member of the squad. To say the squad isn’t happy with VI is an understatement according to this fellow. Semi Ajayi also had words with VI during the confrontation and initially put in a transfer request but it was later withdrawn. Call me a BS’er if you like but I do get to hear things being involved in the local youth football leagues.
VI's system needs everybody to be on board. It just doesn't work with mavericks. Whether it was as dramatic as portrayed there or not, I don't know, but I'd imagine that Snodgrass got a FIFO message, along with anybody else who didn't want to fit in.
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VI's system needs everybody to be on board. It just doesn't work with mavericks. Whether it was as dramatic as portrayed there or not, I don't know, but I'd imagine that Snodgrass got a FIFO message, along with anybody else who didn't want to fit in.
Might have been. T4S message as well as as a FIFO !
Valerie can’t do a T4ALL but it might be worth them discontents all giving it a try.
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Might have been. T4S message as well as as a FIFO !
Valerie can’t do a T4ALL but it might be worth them discontents all giving it a try.
I haven't a clue what you're talking about, this site has a lot of restrictions I wish text speak was one of them!
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VI's system needs everybody to be on board. It just doesn't work with mavericks. Whether it was as dramatic as portrayed there or not, I don't know, but I'd imagine that Snodgrass got a FIFO message, along with anybody else who didn't want to fit in.
It's all a bit too 'Valerian Ismael Uber alles' for me. His results don't show any reason to merit it either.
Imagine bombing someone out the squad because he wants the club to be successful. Bonkers.
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I haven't a clue what you're talking about, this site has a lot of restrictions I wish text speak was one of them!
Agreed ! No idea what that means. FFS !
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And that bad run is 5 games
Last 5 games are DLDLL (1 in a cup game against Prem opposition that we were coasting in at the time)
Previous 7 before that was WDLDDWW
So not it’s not a 12 game bad run.
It’s a 5 game bad run
18th in the table on 12 game form. 18th! You think we’ll make the playoffs? He needs a 10 game winning streak to get back to anywhere near auto. Neither will happen if he stays, we’ll finish well out of the play off picture.
For me it’s burying your head in the sand and not acknowledging there is a serious issue with the manager. The Snodgrass story, if true, will make any half decent player run a mile rather than sign for the club.
Would you want to play under him?
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I haven't a clue what you're talking about, this site has a lot of restrictions I wish text speak was one of them!
It is ;D .
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And that bad run is 5 games
Last 5 games are DLDLL (1 in a cup game against Prem opposition that we were coasting in at the time)
Previous 7 before that was WDLDDWW
So not it’s not a 12 game bad run.
It’s a 5 game bad run
If you take the 11 league games though Tom it's 14 points and 6 goals, that's a bad run in terms of promotion form. I know it's easy to take a snapshot and make things sound better or worse than they actually are, but this is more than a blip now, it's a worrying slide.
The plus point is, we've only conceded 6, so there's still something to build on, but we have to do something different surely? There's a whole lot of hope on Dike's young shoulders.
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Agreed ! No idea what that means. FFS !
I saw the funny side and did reply but it was removed ???
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Not seen or heard them thar rumours Dan.
Yowm must have got yum ear closer t’ ground than me but I’ve been locked up for the last 12 months so that might explain lack of intel.
Robert Snodgrass thread. Starts on November 28th and goes on for a couple of pages. It followed Alan Nixon's tweet that Snoddy had been made available to leave.
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Below is a snippet from the B'ham Mail that sums up why we are where we are.
Matt Clarke, Jayson Molumby and Jordan Hugill all joined on loan whilst Alex Mowatt and Adam Reach both signed on a free.
It’s fair to say that the summer business didn’t reflect a team that were serious about promotion, especially when you consider rivals Fulham spent near £20million.
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A little reminder for those who may be too young to remember what a real bad run looks like in the 95/96 season we went on a run of 14 matches without winning drawing one and losing 13 and guess what we didn't sack the manager so I wouldn't hold your breath for a change at the top anytime soon.
A different era really, when we were run by 'well meaning amateurs' and we didn't have the proverbial pot to pee in, but I know what you mean, I was there for all of that.....
And there was probably a bald headed chap in the crowd watching on and thinking 'do you know what, I could make a right bob or two out of this bunch of muppets'.........
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Below is a snippet from the B'ham Mail that sums up why we are where we are.
Matt Clarke, Jayson Molumby and Jordan Hugill all joined on loan whilst Alex Mowatt and Adam Reach both signed on a free.
It’s fair to say that the summer business didn’t reflect a team that were serious about promotion, especially when you consider rivals Fulham spent near £20million.
Just to point out that Mowatt was out of contract as he'd turned down the offer of a new one at Barnsley. If he'd had say 2 years left on his contract we'd have needed to part with £5-6m minimum. We haven't got the same sort of money that Fulham have and have to be savvy with most signings.
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I haven't a clue what you're talking about, this site has a lot of restrictions I wish text speak was one of them!
You've never heard of FIFO in management terms?
Fit in or F""" Off
Used in my day long before text speak
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You've never heard of FIFO in management terms?
Fit in or F""" Off
Used in my day long before text speak
I was a construction worker mate so not much use for "management terms" but thanks for the clarity!
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To me, it feels like he has lost the fan base and the dressing room.
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Below is a snippet from the B'ham Mail that sums up why we are where we are.
Matt Clarke, Jayson Molumby and Jordan Hugill all joined on loan whilst Alex Mowatt and Adam Reach both signed on a free.
It’s fair to say that the summer business didn’t reflect a team that were serious about promotion, especially when you consider rivals Fulham spent near £20million.
The business wasn't bad last summer with the budget. Most provided an answer to a question. Molumby and Hugill might not have been the right answers, but that is easy with Hindsight. Bar Hugill, none of the signings have really been a big part of our problems either.
There is plenty to criticise VI on and the current form is a big problem but there is also a lot of revisionism going on too.
Two of the players we need to step up over the second half of the season clearly like VI. Dike and Mowatt both would have had options otherwise and I think will be big personalities in the squad and can hopefully drive improvement.
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To me, it feels like he has lost the fan base and the dressing room.
On another site 66% voted in a poll to keep VI rather than sack him.
Whilst this is by no means representative of everyone it does indicate that the constant negativism and lack of support for the manager may be that of a vocal dissenting minority.
It certainly doesn't indicate that VI has lost the fan base.
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To me, it feels like he has lost the fan base and the dressing room.
I don't think he's totally lost the players yet , effort was there first 25 / 30 mins at QPR . I do however think they aren't suited or comfortable to how he wants to play and they know it .
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You've never heard of FIFO in management terms?
Fit in or F""" Off
Used in my day long before text speak
first in, first out - stock rotation.
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The problems at Albion run a lot deeper than the manager. Fans calling for the manager to be sacked need to realise that it won't change a thing. Lets remember that Vi was about the 4th choice having been turned down by other candidates. Also, our owner was guilty of allowing personal judgements affecting professional decisions. That decision was not to appoint Wilder. He would have got us out of this division as he will with Middlesbro. If not this season, next season definitely. His record speaks for itself and he was being judged on one season at Sheffield United where there were no fans allowed which benefitted some teams and not others. So that season was a one off.
I would also like to know who thought having Hugill on loan was a better bet than giving Callum Morton a chance in the team. Lets face it he couldn't have done any worse and he would probably have been cheaper. Peterboro think he is worth a risk at this level and could end up signing him. Which would mean another youngster leaving us.
Its also amazing how another striker who we let go without giving them a fair chance was Willock, who is certainly delivering the goods at QPR. Which is another team along with Middlesbro who could rob us of a play off place.
But I think the fact that a lot of people seem to miss is that our squad is just not good enough. We do not have one player who is up to premier league standard. When we last got promoted only Pereira was premiership quality. Then we go and sell him on the cheap. If Dike has a good 6 months it wouldn't surprise me if we sold him for about £12 million. They will probably think "well we made a good profit on him !!"
We need a total overhaul. Get rid of these ageing players and don't get rubbish on loan instead give the youngsters a chance.
If we did by some miracle get promoted, personally I don't think we will make the play offs, we need to spend well over £100 million to get this squad up to premier quality and then it might not be enough. But either way that isn't going to happen because the club is just a small minded club that is probably in the place we deserve to be, an average championship side. Lets face it our most expensive signing is £18m which by todays standards is pathetically low.
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2 points
1. £100m guarantees nothing - see Fulham / Vile for evidence
2. WBA FC is not small minded, it is a poor relation. Given the funds we could have a 50,000 stadium (half empty) and a prem squad, its simply lack of funds that stops it.
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The problems at Albion run a lot deeper than the manager. Fans calling for the manager to be sacked need to realise that it won't change a thing. Lets remember that Vi was about the 4th choice having been turned down by other candidates. Also, our owner was guilty of allowing personal judgements affecting professional decisions. That decision was not to appoint Wilder. He would have got us out of this division as he will with Middlesbro. If not this season, next season definitely. His record speaks for itself and he was being judged on one season at Sheffield United where there were no fans allowed which benefitted some teams and not others. So that season was a one off.
I would also like to know who thought having Hugill on loan was a better bet than giving Callum Morton a chance in the team. Lets face it he couldn't have done any worse and he would probably have been cheaper. Peterboro think he is worth a risk at this level and could end up signing him. Which would mean another youngster leaving us.
Its also amazing how another striker who we let go without giving them a fair chance was Willock, who is certainly delivering the goods at QPR. Which is another team along with Middlesbro who could rob us of a play off place.
But I think the fact that a lot of people seem to miss is that our squad is just not good enough. We do not have one player who is up to premier league standard. When we last got promoted only Pereira was premiership quality. Then we go and sell him on the cheap. If Dike has a good 6 months it wouldn't surprise me if we sold him for about £12 million. They will probably think "well we made a good profit on him !!"
We need a total overhaul. Get rid of these ageing players and don't get rubbish on loan instead give the youngsters a chance.
If we did by some miracle get promoted, personally I don't think we will make the play offs, we need to spend well over £100 million to get this squad up to premier quality and then it might not be enough. But either way that isn't going to happen because the club is just a small minded club that is probably in the place we deserve to be, an average championship side. Lets face it our most expensive signing is £18m which by todays standards is pathetically low.
We are not in the Premier League though, we are in the Championship and all of the highlighted applies to QPR and Boro also, as well as every other team that is competing for the play offs.
People are calling for the manager's head based on his recent results against the likes of Barnsley, Derby, Blackpool, Huddersfield etc. all of whom we have superior squads to.
Changing the manager will probably not improve our chances if we get promoted, we need a change of owner for that, but it may just get us there, which is the immediate target.
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The problems at Albion run a lot deeper than the manager. Fans calling for the manager to be sacked need to realise that it won't change a thing. Lets remember that Vi was about the 4th choice having been turned down by other candidates. Also, our owner was guilty of allowing personal judgements affecting professional decisions. That decision was not to appoint Wilder. He would have got us out of this division as he will with Middlesbro. If not this season, next season definitely. His record speaks for itself and he was being judged on one season at Sheffield United where there were no fans allowed which benefitted some teams and not others. So that season was a one off.
I would also like to know who thought having Hugill on loan was a better bet than giving Callum Morton a chance in the team. Lets face it he couldn't have done any worse and he would probably have been cheaper. Peterboro think he is worth a risk at this level and could end up signing him. Which would mean another youngster leaving us.
Its also amazing how another striker who we let go without giving them a fair chance was Willock, who is certainly delivering the goods at QPR. Which is another team along with Middlesbro who could rob us of a play off place.
But I think the fact that a lot of people seem to miss is that our squad is just not good enough. We do not have one player who is up to premier league standard. When we last got promoted only Pereira was premiership quality. Then we go and sell him on the cheap. If Dike has a good 6 months it wouldn't surprise me if we sold him for about £12 million. They will probably think "well we made a good profit on him !!"
We need a total overhaul. Get rid of these ageing players and don't get rubbish on loan instead give the youngsters a chance.
If we did by some miracle get promoted, personally I don't think we will make the play offs, we need to spend well over £100 million to get this squad up to premier quality and then it might not be enough. But either way that isn't going to happen because the club is just a small minded club that is probably in the place we deserve to be, an average championship side. Lets face it our most expensive signing is £18m which by todays standards is pathetically low.
An excellent post in my view. The squad simply lacks quality. We over achieved in the first half of the Bilic promotion season and, since then, have reverted to the level at which these players really are. Pereira was the obvious exception. Given where we are I think we have to give this guy more time.
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The problems at Albion run a lot deeper than the manager. Fans calling for the manager to be sacked need to realise that it won't change a thing. Lets remember that Vi was about the 4th choice having been turned down by other candidates. Also, our owner was guilty of allowing personal judgements affecting professional decisions. That decision was not to appoint Wilder. He would have got us out of this division as he will with Middlesbro. If not this season, next season definitely. His record speaks for itself and he was being judged on one season at Sheffield United where there were no fans allowed which benefitted some teams and not others. So that season was a one off.
I would also like to know who thought having Hugill on loan was a better bet than giving Callum Morton a chance in the team. Lets face it he couldn't have done any worse and he would probably have been cheaper. Peterboro think he is worth a risk at this level and could end up signing him. Which would mean another youngster leaving us.
Its also amazing how another striker who we let go without giving them a fair chance was Willock, who is certainly delivering the goods at QPR. Which is another team along with Middlesbro who could rob us of a play off place.
But I think the fact that a lot of people seem to miss is that our squad is just not good enough. We do not have one player who is up to premier league standard. When we last got promoted only Pereira was premiership quality. Then we go and sell him on the cheap. If Dike has a good 6 months it wouldn't surprise me if we sold him for about £12 million. They will probably think "well we made a good profit on him !!"
We need a total overhaul. Get rid of these ageing players and don't get rubbish on loan instead give the youngsters a chance.
If we did by some miracle get promoted, personally I don't think we will make the play offs, we need to spend well over £100 million to get this squad up to premier quality and then it might not be enough. But either way that isn't going to happen because the club is just a small minded club that is probably in the place we deserve to be, an average championship side. Lets face it our most expensive signing is £18m which by todays standards is pathetically low.
That's quite a good rant for a Tuesday.
IMO some of our fans underestimate the capacity for intellect in our senior management team.
The directors & the particularly the owner weren't convinced that Wilder was the right fit. Wilder's appointment was only supported by Luke Dowling, & reading between the lines, it looks as though GL saw Wilder as a maverick. He had previously openly criticized the owner of Sheffield United, & GL wanted a united approach.
The decision not to appoint Wilder, IMO, was made for good business reasons, not personal ones.
Luke Dowling leaving the club gave the senior management team an opportunity to re-evaluate our management structure, & decided on a flatter structure without a DoF, but with the CEO taking a much more hands on role.
IMO, longer term, this structure will suit us better, there is a history of power struggles between DoF's & Head Coaches, not something WBAFC needs right now.
Finally, it's well known that our business dealings are opaque, so I'm not sure how you know that VI was our fourth choice.
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2 points
1. £100m guarantees nothing - see Fulham / Vile for evidence
2. WBA FC is not small minded, it is a poor relation. Given the funds we could have a 50,000 stadium (half empty) and a prem squad, its simply lack of funds that stops it.
1. True £100m guarantees nothing but it gives you a better chance than £30m which is what we spent last time. Sorry I should have said wasted last time.
2. Yes we are small minded. There is no ambition. We search for free transfers and loans instead of investing money in good proven acquistions. We were established in the premier league for about 7 seasons and were finishing on average about half way , did we invest to ensure we stayed there or even reach new heights by pushing for a top six place . No we didn't and why didn't we because we are small minded. With all the premier league money coming our way during those seasons we would have had the funds to push on. I don't know where you plucked that statement about a 50,000 stadium from !
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We are not in the Premier League though, we are in the Championship and all of the highlighted applies to QPR and Boro also, as well as every other team that is competing for the play offs.
People are calling for the manager's head based on his recent results against the likes of Barnsley, Derby, Blackpool, Huddersfield etc. all of whom we have superior squads to.
Changing the manager will probably not improve our chances if we get promoted, we need a change of owner for that, but it may just get us there, which is the immediate target.
You say about changing managers but who is going to come in and get us a guaranteed play off place. I say play off because in my opinion top 2 has gone now. If Fulham win tonight they are 13 points in front on same games so they are out of reach. Bournemouth and Blackburn both 7 points ahead on same games. One of those two could falter but not both of them.
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1. True £100m guarantees nothing but it gives you a better chance than £30m which is what we spent last time. Sorry I should have said wasted last time.
2. Yes we are small minded. There is no ambition. We search for free transfers and loans instead of investing money in good proven acquistions. We were established in the premier league for about 7 seasons and were finishing on average about half way , did we invest to ensure we stayed there or even reach new heights by pushing for a top six place . No we didn't and why didn't we because we are small minded. With all the premier league money coming our way during those seasons we would have had the funds to push on. I don't know where you plucked that statement about a 50,000 stadium from !
You don't think that £100k per week for Krychoviac & Sturridge was significant spending then?
We've had a policy for some time now to spend on wages, but a reluctance to spend on transfer fees, a good policy IMO.
Think we played a blinder on Alex Mowatt, a player of that quality for zero transfer fee.
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That's quite a good rant for a Tuesday.
IMO some of our fans underestimate the capacity for intellect in our senior management team.
The directors & the particularly the owner weren't convinced that Wilder was the right fit. Wilder's appointment was only supported by Luke Dowling, & reading between the lines, it looks as though GL saw Wilder as a maverick. He had previously openly criticized the owner of Sheffield United, & GL wanted a united approach.
The decision not to appoint Wilder, IMO, was made for good business reasons, not personal ones.
Luke Dowling leaving the club gave the senior management team an opportunity to re-evaluate our management structure, & decided on a flatter structure without a DoF, but with the CEO taking a much more hands on role.
IMO, longer term, this structure will suit us better, there is a history of power struggles between DoF's & Head Coaches, not something WBAFC needs right now.
Finally, it's well known that our business dealings are opaque, so I'm not sure how you know that VI was our fourth choice.
Chris Wilder, Michael Appleton, David Wagner. There may be more.
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That's quite a good rant for a Tuesday.
IMO some of our fans underestimate the capacity for intellect in our senior management team.
The directors & the particularly the owner weren't convinced that Wilder was the right fit. Wilder's appointment was only supported by Luke Dowling, & reading between the lines, it looks as though GL saw Wilder as a maverick. He had previously openly criticized the owner of Sheffield United, & GL wanted a united approach.
The decision not to appoint Wilder, IMO, was made for good business reasons, not personal ones.
Luke Dowling leaving the club gave the senior management team an opportunity to re-evaluate our management structure, & decided on a flatter structure without a DoF, but with the CEO taking a much more hands on role.
IMO, longer term, this structure will suit us better, there is a history of power struggles between DoF's & Head Coaches, not something WBAFC needs right now.
Finally, it's well known that our business dealings are opaque, so I'm not sure how you know that VI was our fourth choice.
I'm not sure where you have been but the situation at WBA is far from acceptable at the moment. You have fans calling for the change of manager and owner. There is rumours that the manager has lost the dressing room. So it is quite clear that the current structure is not working.
I also cannot accept your views regarding Wilder. Its all about getting results on the field, nothing else. But keep that thought about Wilder not being the right fit until the end of the season. My feeling is that Boro will finish above us which could mean an extended stay in the championship.
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Chris Wilder, Michael Appleton, David Wagner. There may be more.
The only one of those that I know was allegedly offered the job was David Wagner, who decided to take a job in his native Germany.
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You don't think that £100k per week for Krychoviac & Sturridge was significant spending then?
We've had a policy for some time now to spend on wages, but a reluctance to spend on transfer fees, a good policy IMO.
Think we played a blinder on Alex Mowatt, a player of that quality for zero transfer fee.
This has been our undoing poor decisions you can add Burke to that list, that was the season where it all blew up for Albion and wasted most of our money.
P S easy to say in hindsight they all looked good decisions at the time.
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You say about changing managers but who is going to come in and get us a guaranteed play off place. I say play off because in my opinion top 2 has gone now. If Fulham win tonight they are 13 points in front on same games so they are out of reach. Bournemouth and Blackburn both 7 points ahead on same games. One of those two could falter but not both of them.
We have pretty much played our way out of the top 2 and as manager Val has to take responsibility for that, although top 2 was always a tough ask. We are now close to playing our way out of the play offs however and, given our squad, this is unacceptable.
Personally I don't think it would be difficult for someone to take over and cement a top 6 spot given our squad and the quality of the opposition. I don't think there is a manager out there that would keep us up though.
To lambast the club for not spending money, they don't have is, what I don't understand. You say it will take £100m to stay up, I would say it is even more and we just don't have it.
It's not Lai's fault, or Ken's, or Val's or even Jezza's, it is the game itself, and the greed within it, that has sealed our fate, along with 95% of the football league.
The only piece of the pie we can get is via promotion, even if followed by an inevitable relegation, and that is why we can't sit around watching a manager fail, in the hope that it will all be alright in the end, or because we don't want a reputation as a club who constantly fires managers. We have a (financial) advantage at present, albeit a slim one, we can't let it go purely out of pride.
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We have pretty much played our way out of the top 2 and as manager Val has to take responsibility for that, although top 2 was always a tough ask. We are now close to playing our way out of the play offs however and, given our squad, this is unacceptable.
Personally I don't think it would be difficult for someone to take over and cement a top 6 spot given our squad and the quality of the opposition. I don't think there is a manager out there that would keep us up though.
To lambast the club for not spending money, they don't have is, what I don't understand. You say it will take £100m to stay up, I would say it is even more and we just don't have it.
It's not Lai's fault, or Ken's, or Val's or even Jezza's, it is the game itself, and the greed within it, that has sealed our fate, along with 95% of the football league.
The only piece of the pie we can get is via promotion, even if followed by an inevitable relegation, and that is why we can't sit around watching a manager fail, in the hope that it will all be alright in the end, or because we don't want a reputation as a club who constantly fires managers. We have a (financial) advantage at present, albeit a slim one, we can't let it go purely out of pride.
You have probably hit the nail on the head. I have thought for a few seasons that the premier league needs to be reduced to about 10 teams and then the next division made up of 20 teams which we would be one of them and it would also be a more level playing field regarding competiting on the field and financially.
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Am I sensing that many of our supporters who dislike pretty much everything about VI wanted Wilder, and believe that we have a right to be in one of the automatic promotion places?
I tend to agree with much that Seteefeet has just posted, I don't know whether or not VI is the answer, but I do know that he inherited a decimated ageing side who, under Allardyce, had been regularly hammered in the prem conceding multiple goals per game without the loan players he brought in, and had also lost their best player. A player who created and scored goals and made the others around him look far better than they actually were. In both the promotion season and even when played in CM in the prem Periera was the key element specific to us. This team so far has been cobbled together from the remnants of that side. A team who were pretty average in all positions, and were also without anything resembling an effective striker. A team in all reality as it stood that had little chance of a top 6 finish. By adding a few free transfers and cheap loans, and playing in a way that suits less talented but harder working players VI won the early games.
The players we have now are still not the most skilful and some have seemingly become incapable of doing the hard yards anymore, and we have not always had the rub of the green with some of the worst official decisions I have seen for some time. We have also been without key players much of the time. Discipline maybe but more often for me a case of being punished more harshly than other teams for similar offences.
We as a club are nowhere near ready to be promoted to the Premier League this season and are a work in progress. Work I can only hope that will in time bring us a longer term possibility of success. I have no idea how long it will or it should take, except that it will need to be longer than most of our recent managers were given. The club have appointed VI as the manager to help complete the work and needs to be given the time and support to do so. It is not going to happen quickly, and my hope is that we as 'supporters' will understand this and get behind the team, at the very least at the games, even if not, as it appears on the often knee-jerk reaction social media outlets for the disappointed and angry.
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This has been our undoing poor decisions you can add Burke to that list, that was the season where it all blew up for Albion and wasted most of our money.
P S easy to say in hindsight they all looked good decisions at the time.
I think those players would have done OK under a better manager. The poorest decisions of that season were keeping Pulis on instead of getting rid in the summer. Then replacing him months later with Pardew. Criminal.
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18th in the table on 12 game form. 18th! You think we’ll make the playoffs? He needs a 10 game winning streak to get back to anywhere near auto. Neither will happen if he stays, we’ll finish well out of the play off picture.
For me it’s burying your head in the sand and not acknowledging there is a serious issue with the manager. The Snodgrass story, if true, will make any half decent player run a mile rather than sign for the club.
Would you want to play under him?
No it’s not burying my head in the sand, it’s not knee jerk reactions either.
I’m happy to give a manager time to get his philosophy across aswell as windows to build the squad he wants.
Sick of going through managers.
Whatever happens, the next one through the door will be subject to the same knee jerk reactions when some results start going wrong and we don’t have the instant success so many crave.
Yes I would play for him
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Might have been. T4S message as well as as a FIFO !
Valerie can’t do a T4ALL but it might be worth them discontents all giving it a try.
This post was to illustrates how confusing abbreviations are to the non-text speak generation. Many companies are guilty of abbreviations and particularly so in the military and it is so annoying and the reason I invented T4S (Taxi for Snodgrass) and T4ALL (Taxi for all) as I also haven’t got a clue what FIFO means but perhaps someone can enlighten me and the many others on this forum!
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The poorest decisions of that season were keeping Pulis on instead of getting rid in the summer. Then replacing him months later with Pardew. Criminal.
...Then not getting rid of Pardew sooner just because we didn't want to pay him off.
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He needs a 10 game winning streak to get back to anywhere near auto. Neither will happen if he stays
Not saying it will happen but as a team that gives up few chances, there's every possibility of this should Dike start scoring goals say and the confidence returns.
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No it’s not burying my head in the sand, it’s not knee jerk reactions either.
I’m happy to give a manager time to get his philosophy across aswell as windows to build the squad he wants.
Sick of going through managers.
Whatever happens, the next one through the door will be subject to the same knee jerk reactions when some results start going wrong and we don’t have the instant success so many crave.
Yes I would play for him
I’d grab your boots as you might get a game.
I’m all for giving a manager time but it has to be someone who has a track record of building teams, we’ve given the keys to the castle to a guy who had a lucky season with Barnsley. In 25 games he’s shown nothing that makes me believe he has any concept of building a promotion team.
He’s stubborn, falls out with players over nothing and doesn’t acknowledge for one second it’s his fault the system he is enforcing doesn’t work. This isn’t the kind of manager I want to give time to. It’s the kind of manager who gets you into League 1.
I really hope I’m wrong but I just don’t see anything I like in this guy.
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This post was to illustrates how confusing abbreviations are to the non-text speak generation. Many companies are guilty of abbreviations and particularly so in the military and it is so annoying and the reason I invented T4S (Taxi for Snodgrass) and T4ALL (Taxi for all) as I also haven’t got a clue what FIFO means but perhaps someone can enlighten me and the many others on this forum!
Down here a FIFO is a fly-in-fly-out worker between Perth & other major cities and the iron ore mining sites in the North West of WA, upon which the city of Perth relies upon as its biggest source of economic stability.
Not sure if I’ve got the abbreviation solution anyone was looking for but at least you have some alternative context from this Oz based Baggie……
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This post was to illustrates how confusing abbreviations are to the non-text speak generation. Many companies are guilty of abbreviations and particularly so in the military and it is so annoying and the reason I invented T4S (Taxi for Snodgrass) and T4ALL (Taxi for all) as I also haven’t got a clue what FIFO means but perhaps someone can enlighten me and the many others on this forum!
I might be wrong but I assume FIFO is Fit In or **** Off.
Personally I'd be happy for the latter to happen regarding Snodgrass. His one good performance against Bristol City was then followed by a shocking performance against Fulham where he not only gifted them the crucial second goal but should also have seen red.
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This post was to illustrates how confusing abbreviations are to the non-text speak generation. Many companies are guilty of abbreviations and particularly so in the military and it is so annoying and the reason I invented T4S (Taxi for Snodgrass) and T4ALL (Taxi for all) as I also haven’t got a clue what FIFO means but perhaps someone can enlighten me and the many others on this forum!
Might have been easier just to ask, but as Hull Baggie has said it's Fit in or F""" off, also easy to google https://www.abbreviations.com/FIFO (https://www.abbreviations.com/FIFO)
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This post was to illustrates how confusing abbreviations are to the non-text speak generation. Many companies are guilty of abbreviations and particularly so in the military and it is so annoying and the reason I invented T4S (Taxi for Snodgrass) and T4ALL (Taxi for all) as I also haven’t got a clue what FIFO means but perhaps someone can enlighten me and the many others on this forum!
I thought these were genuine abbreviations I wasn't aware of as I'm in my 40s now.
Spent 15 minutes trying to work out what an audio mixer had to do with WBA ;D
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Might have been easier just to ask, but as Hull Baggie has said it's Fit in or F""" off, also easy to google https://www.abbreviations.com/FIFO (https://www.abbreviations.com/FIFO)
In Logistics terms it's "First In, First Out"
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Might have been easier just to ask, but as Hull Baggie has said it's Fit in or F""" off, also easy to google https://www.abbreviations.com/FIFO (https://www.abbreviations.com/FIFO)
You can see the confusion this has caused so may I suggest we all stop using abbreviations that are not obvious to everybody.
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In Logistics terms it's "First In, First Out"
... same in queueing theory
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Anyway, moving on from abbreviations..
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Some great recent posts on here that I've wanted to say 'hear, hear' to - seteefeet and wodenson in particular.
Irrespective of manager, we just cannot compete in the greed pyramid that's been built. The Premier League is a joke because there is a ludicrous gulf between the top and then say the bottom eight each season and the vast majority of clubs, even when they are well run - which ours is a million miles from right now - will never be able to compete financially.
I think we have been a joke since Pulis came in and I'm not sure who could stop the rot.
Is this a really bad time to say I thought Big Dave should have been given a longer tenure? ... I'll get me coot.
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Some great recent posts on here that I've wanted to say 'hear, hear' to - seteefeet and wodenson in particular.
Irrespective of manager, we just cannot compete in the greed pyramid that's been built. The Premier League is a joke because there is a ludicrous gulf between the top and then say the bottom eight each season and the vast majority of clubs, even when they are well run - which ours is a million miles from right now - will never be able to compete financially.
I think we have been a joke since Pulis came in and I'm not sure who could stop the rot.
Is this a really bad time to say I thought Big Dave should have been given a longer tenure? ... I'll get me coot.
We will never ever know though will we? if we keep sacking managers/head coaches or whatever they get called, at the slightest drop off in form, or at the whim of a social media mafia who wanted somebody else, or if we ever drop out of the top two. Always regardless of resources available, be they players or finance, It is all about an instant fix. About the NOW with little regard to future value.
As I have said before I do not know enough to judge whether or not VI is up to the job, although I have watched Albion for over 60 years, the job and the game has altered so much, and not all for the better. What I do know is that sacking whoever happens be in charge now has not given them enough time within the resource constraints, to properly evaluate, educate and improve a very established but limited squad of first team players. Changing an established system and mind set is often a long process, and involves sometimes a fair amount of two steps back for every three forward. This different thinking I believe can work, and can be a lot easier on the eye than at present, but needs players who can play it well and are committed to it. VI might succeed or he might fail but if he fails, how much worse off will we really be? I want to wait and see for a bit longer, and am quite prepared for another season in the champs, if it provides a better platform for future survival in the prem. But it's all about opinions, and some see a different path but I hope we all want the best for a successful WBA club and team.
So put thee coot back on th 'ook, mate. Stay round the terbul it's yower round anyroad, you cor goo anyweer yet.
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We will never ever know though will we? if we keep sacking managers/head coaches or whatever they get called, at the slightest drop off in form, or at the whim of a social media mafia who wanted somebody else, or if we ever drop out of the top two. Always regardless of resources available, be they players or finance, It is all about an instant fix. About the NOW with little regard to future value.
As I have said before I do not know enough to judge whether or not VI is up to the job, although I have watched Albion for over 60 years, the job and the game has altered so much, and not all for the better. What I do know is that sacking whoever happens be in charge now has not given them enough time within the resource constraints, to properly evaluate, educate and improve a very established but limited squad of first team players. Changing an established system and mind set is often a long process, and involves sometimes a fair amount of two steps back for every three forward. This different thinking I believe can work, and can be a lot easier on the eye than at present, but needs players who can play it well and are committed to it. VI might succeed or he might fail but if he fails, how much worse off will we really be? I want to wait and see for a bit longer, and am quite prepared for another season in the champs, if it provides a better platform for future survival in the prem. But it's all about opinions, and some see a different path but I hope we all want the best for a successful WBA club and team.
So put thee coot back on th 'ook, mate. Stay round the terbul it's yower round anyroad, you cor goo anyweer yet.
I agree with this Wodenson, but, this evaluation should see him trying different things and we should start to see some progress and some evidence that the training and coaching is paying off. If it isn't then it doesn't matter whether it's six months or 4 years, nothing will change.
We should be looking more longer term but it has to be with the right coach and, for me, Val is too inexperienced, inflexible and stubborn to be that person.
I still, however, wish to be wrong.
I hope Saturday is the start of the turnaround and we go on a run. A bit of confidence may just see the penny drop.
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Normally I would agree with you Seteefeet, that trying to find a way, by trying different methodologies to see which suits the present team best is a pretty decent option.
However, part of the problem is that the core of the present team for various reasons; age, confidence, injuries etc, is not that good, and we have very little cash to buy replacements. What I think, or hope is happening is that VI is trying to develop a completely (for us) different way of playing. A method that he believes in and which has brought him some success. In order to establish this 'new' way, the basic methodology is not going to change, until by repetition it is thoroughly learned and becomes the sort of go-to baseline. Once we have an established base line for the method, and all the players understand and are able to play their role within it, the format can be tweaked to allow for different situations. The team formation is basically very attacking but can be flexible enough, with the right players, to cope when facing stronger attacking opposition, or to 'play through' a packed defence. I think among some of the panic, the aimless hoofing forward and general individual errors, we have seen brief interludes of what might be possible at times, with the good ball forward, the movement and goal or goal attempt. The conversion rate is an issue and had we just taken 20% more of the better chances we would still be challenging for an automatic promotion, but not going up this season would not be the end of the world for me.
With the right additions to the playing staff, either bought in or promoted from the Academy, probably just one at a time, we may in time see more of the latter and less of the former. (edit: more of the good ball forward and less of he aimless hoof, not the additions to the playing staff. sorry) But IF I am correct in my own assumptions, we do need time and patience and continued strong match day support. I also desperately 'hope Saturday is the start of the turnaround and we go on a run. A bit of confidence may just see the penny drop.' COYB
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I really admire the confidence some people have in our manager, I just don’t see where you get it from.
In 25 games I’ve seen nothing but things that baffle me.
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For me the manager or head coach is there to get a minimum the best out of his squad and hopefully with decent coaching and tactical awareness exceed expectations
If you look at wilder,mowbury,rooney, and the guy at Huddersfield they are all over achieving
Ismael for me is under achieving.
For this very reason and not his awful style of football he should be sacked.
We are getting worse.
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A none result on Saturday and the fat lady could be gargling.
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I went on OS to see if I could find the chief scout on the management team but couldn't find such a role.
Is Ian Pearce the chief scout and if so is he a Val appointee?
If not if he's trying to execute a root and branch transformation should the guy Pearce go rather than Val?
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I went on OS to see if I could find the chief scout on the management team but couldn't find such a role.
Is Ian Pearce the chief scout and if so is he a Val appointee?
If not if he's trying to execute a root and branch transformation should the guy Pearce go rather than Val?
I believe Ian Pearce is Head of Recruitment. I imagine we have a Chief / Head / Senior scout but that it is another role that reports in to him. Its not impossible Head of Recruitment is a glorified term for it, but it sounds like it may incorporate a little more than a traditional head scout would.
Definitely not a VI appointee. Dowling appointed him.
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I believe Ian Pearce is Head of Recruitment. I imagine we have a Chief / Head / Senior scout but that it is another role that reports in to him. Its not impossible Head of Recruitment is a glorified term for it, but it sounds like it may incorporate a little more than a traditional head scout would.
Definitely not a VI appointee. Dowling appointed him.
I have my doubts that a manual scouting network is needed anymore, certainly not to identify players at first team level.
There are a number of global & national databases of players, which can be interrogated from a PC.
It would make sense to have a couple of people to look at players when they have been identified, but covid has prevented overseas travel for the last 2 years.
At academy level, Steve Hopcroft (poached by Villa & upset by Dowling) was the main guy who identified young prospects. I would hope that he's been replaced.
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I have my doubts that a manual scouting network is needed anymore, certainly not to identify players at first team level.
There are a number of global & national databases of players, which can be interrogated from a PC.
It would make sense to have a couple of people to look at players when they have been identified, but covid has prevented overseas travel for the last 2 years.
At academy level, Steve Hopcroft (poached by Villa & upset by Dowling) was the main guy who identified young prospects. I would hope that he's been replaced.
I'd agree to some extent. More than ever you can access stats and video footage but I do think you need some boots on the ground. People with local knowledge will be aware of players far sooner than they achieve wider attention, particularly for players who aren't strikers or creative players who can't just put up good numbers. How do you know who to look at footage for otherwise.
I'm always find it interesting just how infrequently players can be involved with the ball in a match too. So much of being a good player is what you do off the ball and position. Some of that is difficult to assess in footage unless there are video's out there that specifically follow players for an entire game, but from a wide angle.
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Valerien Ismael remaining positive despite West Brom's ‘tough time’
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/21/valerien-ismael-remaining-positive-despite-west-broms-tough-time/
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Valerien Ismael remaining positive despite West Brom's ‘tough time’
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/21/valerien-ismael-remaining-positive-despite-west-broms-tough-time/
BS if you ask me, he's just hiding behind suspensions. All those missing for QPR have been available over the last 10 games and we were still poor and none of the absentees would have realistically affected the result against QPR.
Poor excuse for me and just blinkered to the real issues.
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BS if you ask me, he's just hiding behind suspensions. All those missing for QPR have been available over the last 10 games and we were still poor and none of the absentees would have realistically affected the result against QPR.
Poor excuse for me and just blinkered to the real issues.
So would you be happy moving forward minus Johnstone, Bartley, Kipre and Mowatt in favour of Button, Townsend and Furlong out of position with Molumby partnering Jake Livermore in the middle?
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All he’s doing is applying more and more pressure to himself, the awful form continues when they are all back he’s nowhere to hide.
I still can’t see him surviving a loss Saturday myself.
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All he’s doing is applying more and more pressure to himself, the awful form continues when they are all back he’s nowhere to hide.
I still can’t see him surviving a loss Saturday myself.
So what's wrong with that? You want him gone anyway. If that's what he's doing you should be happy he's giving himself a short noose. Cheer up you've got the whole day ahead of you ;D .
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So what's wrong with that? You want him gone anyway. If that's what he's doing you should be happy he's giving himself a short noose. Cheer up you've got the whole day ahead of you ;D .
I want Albion to get promoted. I don’t care who does it, without the money the club is in serious trouble due to the mismanagement over the last 4 years.
Do I think this guy can do it? No ****** chance.
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No problem with the positivity at all. What do people expect him to say the day before the game?
However I agree that blaming missing players is ridiculous. We have only missed Kipre, Mowatt and Johnstone for one league game and every club gets injuries (which we haven't been hit hard with this season).
Normally the things VI has said away from a matchday have been spot on, but this stuff about missing players is silly.
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So would you be happy moving forward minus Johnstone, Bartley, Kipre and Mowatt in favour of Button, Townsend and Furlong out of position with Molumby partnering Jake Livermore in the middle?
No but their absence is not the reason we have been poor for 10 games.
He's saying we will improve when we get players back, but why, when we were rubbish before they got suspended.
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Seriously, what do you want him to say maybe follow a few on here the players are basically rubbish I wouldn't pay them in washers but I fully expect them to perform well on the pitch.
This witchhunt is unpleasant just another example of copying what's happening in modern society and it's ugly.
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I want Albion to get promoted. I don’t care who does it, without the money the club is in serious trouble due to the mismanagement over the last 4 years.
Do I think this guy can do it? No ****** chance.
I'm not sure the EPL money alone will be sufficient for us to have a decent run in that division. So many EPL clubs have other sources of funds - wider support, glory seeking owners. We need too reform along the lines of Brentford or Southampton and this is where the recruitment of young players on the basis of more comprehensive sets of stats is important. I don't think that you can make this transformation in one season - under VI or not.
Jury's definitely out on Ismael but it needs more than half a season to turn us around and the scouting / recruitment function is one that should be looked at.
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I want Albion to get promoted. I don’t care who does it, without the money the club is in serious trouble due to the mismanagement over the last 4 years.
Do I think this guy can do it? No ****** chance.
Of course you care who does it. You can't stand the bloke or his football. You want him gone. And do you know what if that's how you feel then fair enough.
But don't hide behind the promotion for the sake of the money banner. We all know how important the money is but you'd much prefer it if we get there with someone else at the helm.
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No problem with the positivity at all. What do people expect him to say the day before the game?........
I've got no idea what people expect him to say. I know what a growing number would like to hear him say though. 'I'm not up to the job. My ideas aren't working with this group of players. Mr. Lai cannot afford to furnish me with even the most rudimentary of players to implement my most rudimentary of philosophies. With that in mind I am going to walk away from the rest of my contract to allow someone more qualified than I to take the club forward. No need for compensation, you can put the money towards the next bloke through the doors'. Or words to that effect.
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Some points here:
1) results have been getting worse as the season has progressed. You would expect it to be the other way. The chaos of relegation, players incoming and outgoing and the Manager implementing a style of play would have impacted results at start of the season. Have the players now downed tools?
2) we gave a striker (Hugill) double the amount of minutes he should've got.
3) we have abandoned the high press and made a regular starter of Livermore who cannot press high.
4) no WBA fan can expect promotion on the paucity of genuine goalscoring chances created.
Fans have the right to be annoyed and question where we are going?
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Seriously, what do you want him to say maybe follow a few on here the players are basically rubbish I wouldn't pay them in washers but I fully expect them to perform well on the pitch.
This witchhunt is unpleasant just another example of copying what's happening in modern society and it's ugly.
Firstly. He could have made a positive spin without hiding behind the feeble and spurious excuse of suspensions.
Secondly.
a) Where's the witchunt?
b) What power do I have to instigate one ???
All I've done is state my opinion in relation to his statement (which is what a forum is for), I've not made anything up or fabricated anything.
Feel free to disagree but save me the childish histrionics.
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Firstly. He could have made a positive spin without hiding behind the feeble and spurious excuse of suspensions.
Secondly.
a) Where's the witchunt?
b) What power do I have to instigate one ???
All I've done is state my opinion in relation to his statement (which is what a forum is for), I've not made anything up or fabricated anything.
Feel free to disagree but save me the childish histrionics.
My post was for general consumption not at you personally had it been I would have directed it at you, that's all I have to say I''ll leave the histrionics to others.
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BS if you ask me, he's just hiding behind suspensions. All those missing for QPR have been available over the last 10 games and we were still poor and none of the absentees would have realistically affected the result against QPR.
Poor excuse for me and just blinkered to the real issues.
Its hard to ignore a number of those missing are due to red cards , the root of that is discipline and that comes from Val himself . Self inflicted really , just adds a bit more pressure to a game he needs to win and with a better performance .
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If he is moaning about red cards then that's just stupid. He's the manager, it's his responsibilty to keep them disciplined.
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If he is moaning about red cards then that's just stupid. He's the manager, it's his responsibilty to keep them disciplined.
Cheers. Stuck with a mental image of Valerian Ismael standing in the dressing room legs astride wearing a pair of leather high boots and rubber chaps with a pile of whips, chains, gimp masks and snooker balls in front of him. 'Things you can't unsee' ;D .
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Cheers. Stuck with a mental image of Valerian Ismael standing in the dressing room legs astride wearing a pair of leather high boots and rubber chaps with a pile of whips, chains, gimp masks and snooker balls in front of him. 'Things you can't unsee' ;D .
;D
Well that wasn't the image i was trying to conjure up but it's definitely the image i've got stuck in my head now.
Bet he looks good in cheekless chaps
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Not an unfamiliar image for most of us I would suspect. But VI? - I feel I must decline the offer at this time sir, I will retire to my room and think sweeter thoughts- and increase the meds I think. :o
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;D
Well that wasn't the image i was trying to conjure up but it's definitely the image i've got stuck in my head now.
Bet he looks good in cheekless chaps
Is he singing 'Let me be your Fantasy' to you too :-X ;D ?
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Is he singing 'Let me be your Fantasy' to you too :-X ;D ?
Amongst other things! :-X ;D
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My post was for general consumption not at you personally had it been I would have directed it at you, that's all I have to say I''ll leave the histrionics to others.
Your post directly followed mine and asked "what do you want him to say" which is why I figured it was aimed at me.
Even so, if it was for general consumption, witch hunt suggest that people are hounding him unfairly and that people are just "copying what's happening in modern society" which, I presume, suggests they are just spouting ill-thought out and false rhetoric, whereas they are actually just voicing legitimate concerns, based on his performance and results. That, for me, is histrionics
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Of course you care who does it. You can't stand the bloke or his football. You want him gone. And do you know what if that's how you feel then fair enough.
But don't hide behind the promotion for the sake of the money banner. We all know how important the money is but you'd much prefer it if we get there with someone else at the helm.
At present I couldn’t care who got us there. But I’d like to think we’d at least have a chance this season given we only went down last.
With Val I see no chance of promotion and just excuses and awful football. You can’t tell me you see what he’s doing and think, wow this guys going to take the club far.
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I've always wanted VI to succeed, as I do any manager. However some of the stuff I'm reading from fans at the moment really is increasing my hope that he gets things right and things click.
Lets hope it can start with West Brom 5-0 Peterborough tomorrow with a Dike brace.
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At present I couldn’t care who got us there. But I’d like to think we’d at least have a chance this season given we only went down last.
With Val I see no chance of promotion and just excuses and awful football. You can’t tell me you see what he’s doing and think, wow this guys going to take the club far.
I'm not trying to tell you anything chap. Well that's not strictly true as I remain convinced you want him out no matter what and promotion would mean that probably wouldn't happen.
And yes, we have still got a chance of going up this season. So the uncomfortable truth is you might just have to put up with it more than a little longer.
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I'm not trying to tell you anything chap. Well that's not strictly true as I remain convinced you want him out no matter what and promotion would mean that probably wouldn't happen.
And yes, we have still got a chance of going up this season. So the uncomfortable truth is you might just have to put up with it more than a little longer.
He turns it around I’ll be the first to congratulate him, I just don’t see it happening.
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He turns it around I’ll be the first to congratulate him, I just don’t see it happening.
If he turns it around you won't need to be the first to congratulate him. Or the second or third etc. For the record I haven't got the foggiest idea if he will.
But what I do know is that the season's far from over, he's got his front line target and players are coming back from suspension and injury over the next few weeks.
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I find it impossible to believe that anyone wants him to fail as every fan wants us to win every game. No one’s going tomorrow supporting Peterborough are they?
It’s just that some people don’t expect him to succeed, based purely on his performance so far and that’s perfectly reasonable.
It’s not an agenda or a witch hunt. It’s not based on his haircut or his trainers or the way he likes his coffee, it’s based on genuine observations by genuine supporters so can we please stop belittling their opinion?
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He's been here for 1/8 of his tenure, he's got plenty of time to get it right.
If not this season next will do
But I want it this season
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Styles of play suit some players and not others. Class players can look good in some formations and poor in others. Which of our players does Val ball suit and which don’t perform in the formation? I would argue Kipre, Bartley, Townsend, Grant and to an extent Phillips and (hopefully Dike) benefit. However players such as Grady and obviously Hugill struggle.
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He's been here for 1/8 of his tenure, he's got plenty of time to get it right.
If not this season next will do
But I want it this season
But most fans can already see the mistakes Ismael is making. It's not rocket science, it's pretty basic.
So when Mowatt is back, he's going to put him with Livermore and force Gardner-Hickman to compete with Furlong for a RWB berth, when it's not TGH's best position? Furthermore, the evidence points to us not creating with Livermore in CM, 6 goals in 12 matches.
Maybe it's just an easy life if Livermore is playing, I. E. the tail wagging the dog!
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If he turns it around you won't need to be the first to congratulate him. Or the second or third etc. For the record I haven't got the foggiest idea if he will.
But what I do know is that the season's far from over, he's got his front line target and players are coming back from suspension and injury over the next few weeks.
I would endorse and add to this the very fact that we tried to sign the lad who went to Celtic that the powers that be know what is needed /wanted but finances appear to be a problem . Desperately need to get the likes of Snodgrass and Zohore off the wage bill
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I would endorse and add to this the very fact that we tried to sign the lad who went to Celtic that the powers that be know what is needed /wanted but finances appear to be a problem . Desperately need to get the likes of Snodgrass and Zohore off the wage bill
According to some sources we offered him a better financial deal than Celtic so we can’t be that short of cash.
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According to some sources we offered him a better financial deal than Celtic so we can’t be that short of cash.
Much more glamour at Celtic and chance of playing on European stage. Follows Mowbray doesn't he?
Plus he would have to oust some footballing giants to get in the starting line-up ::)
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He probably saw the manager and the tactics/formation and thought no thanks 😂
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Made a slight tactical change and we win the game. Why so long?
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We won today in spite of the Manager.
Centre half is clearly a strength - 5 good CH's at this level - Bartley, Kipre, Clarke, O'Shea, Ajayi.
If he insists on 3 then he clearly needs to find a way of making the midfield more fluid.
Selecting Livermore and Reach is just nonsense.
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We just dont need 3 CB's at this level. It's that simple.
It ruins the balance of the rest of the team.
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My main concern is if somehow we go up - prem teams will destroy these tactics.
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My main concern is if somehow we go up - prem teams will destroy these tactics.
Prem teams will destroy the players let alone the tactics. We are back to yo-yo'ing for a few seasons regardless.
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Prem teams will destroy the players let alone the tactics. We are back to yo-yo'ing for a few seasons regardless.
This is why I'm not as fussed about going up. We're 2-3 years away from having a team that might be worth watching in the Prem, regardless of manager or tactics
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Worry about that when we get there chaps
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This is why I'm not as fussed about going up. We're 2-3 years away from having a team that might be worth watching in the Prem, regardless of manager or tactics
We need to go up to come back down and repeat and rinse until we build a decent squad.
The longer we stay down here the further away from improving the club we stray.
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My main concern is if somehow we go up - prem teams will destroy these tactics.
Lovely concern to have.
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We won today in spite of the Manager.
Centre half is clearly a strength - 5 good CH's at this level - Bartley, Kipre, Clarke, O'Shea, Ajayi.
If he insists on 3 then he clearly needs to find a way of making the midfield more fluid.
Selecting Livermore and Reach is just nonsense.
No issues with jake and reach for me today
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Lovely concern to have.
ok maybe i should have added more. I really don't believe we will go up playing this way. However for if some reason we do then we all know VI won't change his tactics. I'm fairly confident that prem teams will just destory us when we try and play like this.
So my concern is that what is the point? why bother when we know that going up will lead to a last place finish / sacking the manager for a different tatical approach. I don't see a plan or an acheivable goal with this set up.
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ok maybe i should have added more. I really don't believe we will go up playing this way. However for if some reason we do then we all know VI won't change his tactics. I'm fairly confident that prem teams will just destory us when we try and play like this.
So my concern is that what is the point? why bother when we know that going up will lead to a last place finish / sacking the manager for a different tatical approach. I don't see a plan or an acheivable goal with this set up.
So no need to concern yourself with this team getting torn a new one in the Premiership then.
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He got lucky today and I really hope he learns from it. We take the lead and his system then has potential but it’s a dreadful system to play from the start against 90% of the teams in this league.
We easily have a chance of top 2 IF he quits the stubbornness. The league this year is shocking, let’s take the chance and get out. Get the money, get mullered and rebuild each year.
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So lucky the team missed three great chances in the first half and the new striker went off injured.
Sorry you have been denied your weekend meltdown, your frustration is palpable.
Spot on
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So no need to concern yourself with this team getting torn a new one in the Premiership then.
Well the point still stands then - what is the point of carrying on with it.
I've made a reasonable point and you are being pedantic.
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Arguably could and should have been double figures . Credit to VI to as I’m willing to bet when Dike went off many on here would have bought Robinson on but VI went for Diangana who proved his boss right and was the catalyst for the last 20 mins
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Well the point still stands then - what is the point of carrying on with it.
I've made a reasonable point and you are being pedantic.
For what it is worth, I agree with you that this team would get relegated from the premiership but that is still a luxury problem to have and not something that concerns me this season.
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Arguably could and should have been double figures . Credit to VI to as I’m willing to bet when Dike went off many on here would have bought Robinson on but VI went for Diangana who proved his boss right and was the catalyst for the last 20 mins
I still think CR7 played an important role in our win as he the only one I see who regularly puts his foot on the ball and shows some craft. Glad to see Grady make an impact as well, he needed that for his confidence. For all that has been said about the manger and tactics, to be unbeaten at home with the best defensive record in the league is impressive.
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Arguably could and should have been double figures . Credit to VI to as I’m willing to bet when Dike went off many on here would have bought Robinson on but VI went for Diangana who proved his boss right and was the catalyst for the last 20 mins
Certainly don’t think P’Boro could had any complaints had it been 2 or 3 at half time.
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I still think CR7 played an important role in our win as he the only one I see who regularly puts his foot on the ball and shows some craft. Glad to see Grady make an impact as well, he needed that for his confidence. For all that has been said about the manger and tactics, to be unbeaten at home with the best defensive record in the league is impressive.
If we played 4231 then I think Robinson in the middle of the three with Grant and Diangana either side would be pretty lively. But we don’t and never will sadly.
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Perhaps we should all respect each other’s opinions a little more. Because that’s all they are - opinions.
We all want our club to do well. I’ve had almost 50 years of (mostly) disappointment but I keep coming back for more.
I’ve gradually shifted from being optimistic about Ismael to the opposite, mainly because of results and performances over the last several months. I’m afraid that view hasn’t shifted with three late goals at home to Peterborough. That’s my honest opinion, and it has built up over time rather than through the odd result here and there.
What will start to shift it positively is if the team follows up with some more positive results and performances. This was Ismael’s third win in almost three months - 3 wins in 11 games isn’t great, and we’ve failed to score in 5 of them.
I think he has the worst squad we’ve fielded for 20 years, and that’s not his fault. I cut him slack for that - I don’t think we have any right to expect automatic promotion, but we are better than the poor results and performances have been since he had such a good start in the first ten games.
So it’s about trends for me. If his next three or four results are as poor as the last three or four before today, that keeps the trend line going down. We won’t stay in the top six with the results he’s achieved over the past four months and good coaches don’t tend to make teams worse.
If he starts to get top 6 results over the next few weeks (and he needs to if we’re to stay in the top 6 for much longer), then he’ll start to restore some of my confidence.
But I’m afraid three late goals against probably the league’s worst team - welcome though it is - is not enough to persuade me that Ismael has turned the corner. It took quite a lot of poor results to turn me negative on Ismael, and likewise it’ll take quite a few positive ones to restore my belief.
That’s an honest opinion. I entirely respect that other people may see it differently. But one result isn’t enough to swing the pendulum either way on its own for me.
Pleased with the result, but not anything more than that for now.
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Perhaps we should all respect each other’s opinions a little more. Because that’s all they are - opinions.
We all want our club to do well. I’ve had almost 50 years of (mostly) disappointment but I keep coming back for more.
I’ve gradually shifted from being optimistic about Ismael to the opposite, mainly because of results and performances over the last several months. I’m afraid that view hasn’t shifted with three late goals at home to Peterborough. That’s my honest opinion, and it has built up over time rather than through the odd result here and there.
What will start to shift it positively is if the team follows up with some more positive results and performances. This was Ismael’s third win in almost three months - 3 wins in 11 games isn’t great, and we’ve failed to score in 5 of them.
I think he has the worst squad we’ve fielded for 20 years, and that’s not his fault. I cut him slack for that - I don’t think we have any right to expect automatic promotion, but we are better than the poor results and performances have been since he had such a good start in the first ten games.
So it’s about trends for me. If his next three or four results are as poor as the last three or four before today, that keeps the trend line going down. We won’t stay in the top six with the results he’s achieved over the past four months and good coaches don’t tend to make teams worse.
If he starts to get top 6 results over the next few weeks (and he needs to if we’re to stay in the top 6 for much longer), then he’ll start to restore some of my confidence.
But I’m afraid three late goals against probably the league’s worst team - welcome though it is - is not enough to persuade me that Ismael has turned the corner. It took quite a lot of poor results to turn me negative on Ismael, and likewise it’ll take quite a few positive ones to restore my belief.
That’s an honest opinion. I entirely respect that other people may see it differently. But one result isn’t enough to swing the pendulum either way on its own for me.
Pleased with the result, but not anything more than that for now.
Shockingly balanced and sensible post. I would look forward to seeing your opinion more over the next few months.
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Perhaps we should all respect each other’s opinions a little more. Because that’s all they are - opinions.
We all want our club to do well. I’ve had almost 50 years of (mostly) disappointment but I keep coming back for more.
I’ve gradually shifted from being optimistic about Ismael to the opposite, mainly because of results and performances over the last several months. I’m afraid that view hasn’t shifted with three late goals at home to Peterborough. That’s my honest opinion, and it has built up over time rather than through the odd result here and there.
What will start to shift it positively is if the team follows up with some more positive results and performances. This was Ismael’s third win in almost three months - 3 wins in 11 games isn’t great, and we’ve failed to score in 5 of them.
I think he has the worst squad we’ve fielded for 20 years, and that’s not his fault. I cut him slack for that - I don’t think we have any right to expect automatic promotion, but we are better than the poor results and performances have been since he had such a good start in the first ten games.
So it’s about trends for me. If his next three or four results are as poor as the last three or four before today, that keeps the trend line going down. We won’t stay in the top six with the results he’s achieved over the past four months and good coaches don’t tend to make teams worse.
If he starts to get top 6 results over the next few weeks (and he needs to if we’re to stay in the top 6 for much longer), then he’ll start to restore some of my confidence.
But I’m afraid three late goals against probably the league’s worst team - welcome though it is - is not enough to persuade me that Ismael has turned the corner. It took quite a lot of poor results to turn me negative on Ismael, and likewise it’ll take quite a few positive ones to restore my belief.
That’s an honest opinion. I entirely respect that other people may see it differently. But one result isn’t enough to swing the pendulum either way on its own for me.
Pleased with the result, but not anything more than that for now.
Completely agree, it’s a poor 15 game run that one last minute win against awful opposition doesn’t solve. He does well next 5, say 12 points then we’ll be able to look a lot more optimistically. But he has to learn from today and start games differently. The system is totally ineffective when teams sit back. We get half chances and given our scoring confidence we snatch at them and miss.
I’d like to see him try a more attacking intent from the middle and try and cause teams issues that can’t see coming.
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Excellent post TTree30.
It was great to get the 3 points yesterday but 1 game has not has changed my long term view on VI.
Imagine if he just rocked up with, just for example, a 4-4-2 formation one week, the opposing manager would be dumbfounded.
We need more adaptability and flexible thinking from VI for us to be successful.
As Phil says we need more attacking intent. We don't need 3 CBs for 90 minutes every game against these teams.
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Excellent post TTree30.
It was great to get the 3 points yesterday but 1 game has not has changed my long term view on VI.
Imagine if he just rocked up with, just for example, a 4-4-2 formation one week, the opposing manager would be dumbfounded.
We need more adaptability and flexible thinking from VI for us to be successful.
As Phil says we need more attacking intent. We don't need 3 CBs for 90 minutes every game against these teams.
The problem is, so would our players ;D
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The problem is, so would our players ;D
I think the players would (IMO) improve under almost any other system Dave.
I think Ismael needs at least 3/4 more players to make his 3-4-3 work and there's no sign of that coming sadly.
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Excellent post TTree30.
It was great to get the 3 points yesterday but 1 game has not has changed my long term view on VI.
Imagine if he just rocked up with, just for example, a 4-4-2 formation one week, the opposing manager would be dumbfounded.
We need more adaptability and flexible thinking from VI for us to be successful.
As Phil says we need more attacking intent. We don't need 3 CBs for 90 minutes every game against these teams.
3 CBs was a total waste of player resources yesterday Clarke was on the left-wing half the time like a spare part when we could have had CR in a free role.
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3 CBs was a total waste of player resources yesterday Clarke was on the left-wing half the time like a spare part when we could have had CR in a free role.
It's maddening mate. I don't understand it at all.
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Excellent post TTree30.
It was great to get the 3 points yesterday but 1 game has not has changed my long term view on VI.
Imagine if he just rocked up with, just for example, a 4-4-2 formation one week, the opposing manager would be dumbfounded.
We need more adaptability and flexible thinking from VI for us to be successful.
As Phil says we need more attacking intent. We don't need 3 CBs for 90 minutes every game against these teams.
With regard to the home form what is 442 going to improve ? We have only conceded approx 6 goals at home all season in the league 2 of which came in the first game when you can argue players were still getting used to the system and each other. If you don’t concede you won’t lose was one of Megsons sayings and having scoured the ever changing rules of the game this one seems to apply still! Yes we need to be better going forward, a Koren type would be ideal . It is becoming clear that to get somebody of sufficient ability in we need to ship out Snodgrass or Zohore , encouragingly it seems we are looking in that direction so I assume the weakness has been identified
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It's maddening mate. I don't understand it at all.
As I said last week he'll hang himself in this job through being stubborn , I'd be delighted to see him take the last 15 mins on board from Yesterday .
I for one don't want us changing manager every 6 months ( although I said he'd be a bad fit from day one ) but you can't keep serving up the same tepid , robotic football and expect the paying public to stay behind you especially when not picking up points .Next two games are a chance to carry on the good stuff , fingers crossed .
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With regard to the home form what is 442 going to improve ? We have only conceded approx 6 goals at home all season in the league 2 of which came in the first game when you can argue players were still getting used to the system and each other. If you don’t concede you won’t lose was one of Megsons sayings and having scoured the ever changing rules of the game this one seems to apply still! Yes we need to be better going forward, a Koren type would be ideal . It is becoming clear that to get somebody of sufficient ability in we need to ship out Snodgrass or Zohore , encouragingly it seems we are looking in that direction so I assume the weakness has been identified
I'm not saying go 4-4-2, it's just an example. Anything other than 3-4-3 every single game would keep other teams guessing at the very least.
Home form is good no argument there from me but away from home we are awful so why not mix it up is what i am saying.
Agreed we need a creative midfielder but who makes way?
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As I said last week he'll hang himself in this job through being stubborn , I'd be delighted to see him take the last 15 mins on board from Yesterday .
I for one don't want us changing manager every 6 months ( although I said he'd be a bad fit from day one ) but you can't keep serving up the same tepid , robotic football and expect the paying public to stay behind you especially when not picking up points .Next two games are a chance to carry on the good stuff , fingers crossed .
I also don't want a constant manager merry-go-round but also i wouldn't let the club slip away because of a poor appointment.
No one will be happier than me if things improve.
I know people say there was no formation change yesterday but something definitely changed and it was much better.
Sadly VI has history of reverting to type at first chance available. Hopefully this time going forward he doesn't.
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I can see 352 working in the Premier with better personnel where we will spend little time in possession but we ah there yet and every successful manager needs to adapt to what's happening on the pitch.
VI may have alluded to this when he mentioned having options off the bench if he's referring to different game plans then hooray for that.
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3 CBs was a total waste of player resources yesterday Clarke was on the left-wing half the time like a spare part when we could have had CR in a free role.
Thats not happened every game but VI clearly saw this yesterday and changed it. Not so it would change the system specifically, but so a player would be on who’s attributes matched the space they were occupying.
Yesterdays result is long over due. A bit more composure and we could have done that to a couple of sides recently. Sadly we haven’t, and it seems many fans have made up their minds up, but they way some turned on VI during the game was disappointing. . Our home form has certainly been pretty good.(best ppg in the division)
Hopefully we can win on Wednesday but it is away games where we need to turn the tide. From memory Bilic had to go and get a win at Millwall under a bit of pressure and hopefully VI can do the same.
9 points from 9 in 8 days would go some way to getting fans back on side.
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Thats not happened every game but VI clearly saw this yesterday and changed it. Not so it would change the system specifically, but so a player would be on who’s attributes matched the space they were occupying.
Yesterdays result is long over due. A bit more composure and we could have done that to a couple of sides recently. Sadly we haven’t, and it seems many fans have made up their minds up, but they way some turned on VI during the game was disappointing. . Our home form has certainly been pretty good.(best ppg in the division)
Hopefully we can win on Wednesday but it is away games where we need to turn the tide. From memory Bilic had to go and get a win at Millwall under a bit of pressure and hopefully VI can do the same.
9 points from 9 in 8 days would go some way to getting fans back on side.
Thanks for the update yesterday's game was the first I have seen in a while via a stream and it looked very disjointed, glad to know it's not like that every game!
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Thanks for the update yesterday's game was the first I have seen in a while via a stream and it looked very disjointed, glad to know it's not like that every game!
I'm not sure what you mean by disjointed?
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I'm not sure what you mean by disjointed?
A CB out on the wing amongst 2 or 3 other baggies like a spare one at a wedding dosen't strike you as disjointed?.
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Can someone explain how changing to a back four will make us better going forwards please?
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Can someone explain how changing to a back four will make us better going forwards please?
Would let us play CR behind Dike (when fit). Forwards like..
Grady Grant
CR
Dike
It we insist that teams play us and sit back then having 3 CB's isn't always needed.
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Would let us play CR behind Dike (when fit). Forwards like..
Grady Grant
CR
Dike
It we insist that teams play us and sit back then having 3 CB's isn't always needed.
So we're neglecting any attacking impetus from a full back then?
Sadly, it's not a one dimensional game. It's about creating overloads and simply putting more attackers on the pitch doesn't do that.
Still not seen a suggested system that would make us any more effective in front of goal than the one we've got.
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So we're neglecting any attacking impetus from a full back then?
Sadly, it's not a one dimensional game. It's about creating overloads and simply putting more attackers on the pitch doesn't do that.
Still not seen a suggested system that would make us any more effective in front of goal than the one we've got.
I've literally just told you one. A LB and RB can still get forward you know. Against teams as poor as Boro it wouldn't have been a problem - we had a CB playing left wing at one point so I'm sure we could have shuffled things around a bit.
It's clear from most games that we are missing someone in the middle to link the 2 CM's and attack. It's not about throwing more attackers on, it's about putting players where we need them. We don't need 4 players on the left wing with 1 in the box. That's not effective.
If you think our last, what 15 games?, is us being as effective as we can be in front of goal I don't know what to say.
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I've literally just told you one. A LB and RB can still get forward you know. Against teams as poor as Boro it wouldn't have been a problem - we had a CB playing left wing at one point so I'm sure we could have shuffled things around a bit.
It's clear from most games that we are missing someone in the middle to link the 2 CM's and attack. It's not about throwing more attackers on, it's about putting players where we need them. We don't need 4 players on the left wing with 1 in the box. That's not effective.
If you think our last, what 15 games?, is us being as effective as we can be in front of goal I don't know what to say.
The irony is the system you describe, similar to the much lauded but absolutely useless Bilic pretty much saw us playing three at the back when in possession.
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Would let us play CR behind Dike (when fit). Forwards like..
Grady Grant
CR
Dike
It we insist that teams play us and sit back then having 3 CB's isn't always needed.
A perfectly resonable explanation and a part of the pitch where yesterday he created two goals.
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A perfectly resonable explanation and a part of the pitch where yesterday he created two goals.
Robinson and Diangana simply occupied the areas on the pitch the two nside forwards should do in 3-4-3. It worked well, good to see them both much improved on recent weeks.
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The irony is the system you describe, similar to the much lauded but absolutely useless Bilic pretty much saw us playing three at the back when in possession.
Well, you dont have to always go 3 at the back, you can do against teams like Boro, against other teams you might mix it up a but, and against teams like Fulham maybe you stick with our current system. Isn't it great to have other options!
Regardless of all that, we got promoted top 2 with the system you don't like in a much tougher division so I'm not sure you can say that there's no other way of playing amd nobody has suggested a different option. 4 at the back would have been plenty yesterday.
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A CB out on the wing amongst 2 or 3 other baggies like a spare one at a wedding dosen't strike you as disjointed?.
Unbalanced, has been for a while.
Standaman used to make a big point that we had too many left sided players, even in Bilic's day.
One of the features of a 3:4:3 formation is the fact that one of the outer centre backs can go forward to support the midfield.
I posted an article some time ago on the benefits of a 3:4:3 formation & it's flexibility.
IMO, you have to forget the traditional, defenders defend, midfielders are the engine room & forwards score goals, in the 3:4:3 every position is flexible.
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Robinson and Diangana simply occupied the areas on the pitch the two nside forwards should do in 3-4-3. It worked well, good to see them both much improved on recent weeks.
So you're saying the reason the tactics haven't worked up until now is because Val hasn't managed to tell them where they should be on the pitch?
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I think far too much is being made of the shape and possible formations. We look organised which is main thing for me. After that it is about player quality. Biggest problem this season has been taking our chances which is nothing to do with playing back three or back four.
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So you're saying the reason the tactics haven't worked up until now is because Val hasn't managed to tell them where they should be on the pitch?
I would say the tactics have worked, we are a top six side in the top six.
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Well, you dont have to always go 3 at the back, you can do against teams like Boro, against other teams you might mix it up a but, and against teams like Fulham maybe you stick with our current system. Isn't it great to have other options!
Regardless of all that, we got promoted top 2 with the system you don't like in a much tougher division so I'm not sure you can say that there's no other way of playing.
There are tonnes of ways of playing. With this team I'm not sure how many of them would be better. We could have given it a try I suppose but for vast spells of the poor run we've been on the only difference has been poor finishing, not the number of centre halves we've had on the pitch.
So you're saying the reason the tactics haven't worked up until now is because Val hasn't managed to tell them where they should be on the pitch?
I'd say he's told them how he wants to play. But that doesn't take into account their natural inclination to hold a certain position on a football pitch. Until a week ago we've not had a striker to play around. It's also a side with zero confidence, another reason why we shouldn't be picking too many holes in yesterday's game.
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Unbalanced, has been for a while.
Standaman used to make a big point that we had too many left sided players, even in Bilic's day.
One of the features of a 3:4:3 formation is the fact that one of the outer centre backs can go forward to support the midfield.
I posted an article some time ago on the benefits of a 3:4:3 formation & it's flexibility.
IMO, you have to forget the traditional, defenders defend, midfielders are the engine room & forwards score goals, in the 3:4:3 every position is flexible.
There was multiple times where Clarke got forward into midfield and made a run further forward.... but he veers away from the center of the pitch and decides to be yet another overlapping winger. One time he basically got out there, realised he was a spare part and trotted back.
Got no problems if he's going to push into the CM and let a CM get into the box but I never see that happen. Likewise if we have good wide possession I've no issue with him making a run forward but get into the box. Don't just be another winger.
If we are relying on Clarke to get the ball wide and cross it in we've got issues.
I agree about flexibility, but under Val there is very little flexibility in positions. It's why we end up with so many players put wide and not enough of the 3 forwards in the box at the same time.
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There are tonnes of ways of playing. With this team I'm not sure how many of them would be better. We could have given it a try I suppose but for vast spells of the poor run we've been on the only difference has been poor finishing, not the number of centre halves we've had on the pitch.
I'd say he's told them how he wants to play. But that doesn't take into account their natural inclination to hold a certain position on a football pitch. Until a week ago we've not had a striker to play around. It's also a side with zero confidence, another reason why we shouldn't be picking too many holes in yesterday's game.
We should try them though. I disagree about the finishing thing, we rarely created clear cut chances. Smashing the ball at defenders legs from 25 yards isn't 'missing chances'.
As for your second part, you're putting the blame on the players, despite us seeing these players play in very different sides tactically. I'm sure if it's just a case of the wingers tucking in a bit more it wouldn't take 6 months to get the message across. As for playing around the forward, Dike wasn't on the pitch for the goals, so this breakthrough in positions happened without him.
Personally I felt yesterday's break through was Robbo coming on for Clarke. When we had the ball on our left side it was unchanged, Townsend, Reach and Grant were all there, but it meant we had an extra body in the middle. It allowed us to commit more into attack, it allowed the CM's to win the ball back further of the pitch and made sure we had more choice when on the ball.
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There was multiple times where Clarke got forward into midfield and made a run further forward.... but he veers away from the center of the pitch and decides to be yet another overlapping winger. One time he basically got out there, realised he was a spare part and trotted back.
Got no problems if he's going to push into the CM and let a CM get into the box but I never see that happen. Likewise if we have good wide possession I've no issue with him making a run forward but get into the box. Don't just be another winger.
If we are relying on Clarke to get the ball wide and cross it in we've got issues.
I agree about flexibility, but under Val there is very little flexibility in positions. It's why we end up with so many players put wide and not enough of the 3 forwards in the box at the same time.
Think that's why he got subbed, Kipre does moving into the right sided midfield position much better & gets into goal scoring positions.
The one issue I see with the overload theory, is a crowded penalty area, & IMO, is one of the contributing factors with us not scoring.
If they are available, it would be good to see stats on how many of our shots are blocked. I would think a higher than average percentage.
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Not sure what the average is but yesterday we had...
6 shots on target.
9 shots off target. I think Reach's effort should count for 2!
12 shots blocked.
Out of the six on target, we'd had just 1 on target while Dike was on the pitch ( when he passed it back to their keeper).
Grady had a long range effort at 55 mins, then Grant from a really narrow angle just before we scored.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1553863/Live/England-Championship-2021-2022-West-Bromwich-Albion-Peterborough
Go to chalkboard, then you can break it all down to shots on target, off target, etc.
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Not sure what the average is but yesterday we had...
6 shots on target.
9 shots off target. I think Reach's effort should count for 2!
12 shots blocked.
Out of the six on target, we'd had just 1 on target while Dike was on the pitch ( when he passed it back to their keeper).
Grady had a long range effort at 55 mins, then Grant from a really narrow angle just before we scored.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1553863/Live/England-Championship-2021-2022-West-Bromwich-Albion-Peterborough
Go to chalkboard, then you can break it all down to shots on target, off target, etc.
Thanks for the link.
I haven't gone very far back, but I does look as though we have a high proportion of blocked shots.
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If we played 4231 then I think Robinson in the middle of the three with Grant and Diangana either side would be pretty lively. But we don’t and never will sadly.
I think there is a case for playing Robinson in a 4-3-3 behind the forwards. His link up play with the other forwards is generally good and he is able to spot a through pass. He hasn't got the physicality to be a No.9, but we need an extra attacking midfielder who can also get on the score sheet.
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Anyway, I'm just glad we won.
'God of Football' four.
'Smarmy Arrogant Smart Alec(x) Junior fugg all.
Onwards and COYB 8) .
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With all the stats that are available these days, it does feel a bit like we are, at times, being told "your eyes are wrong", when you go to a game and cite a poor performance, and this has never been highlighted more than the last 10 games or so, with people at the game, home and away, saying that the performance was terrible, then the xg or whatever saying the opposite.
Historically, it's always been a bit "you weren't there so you don't know", I'm wondering now if the balance is shifting the other way and the benefit of replays, pass maps and suchlike, mean someone sitting at home watching on a PC, can now claim the intellectual high ground?
Personally, I believe what I see over what I hear or read. I've watched enough good and bad football over the last 40 odd years to have earned the right to form an opinion, but then I am an old bugger.
I do work with stats and analytics all day, however, so they definitely have a place, but without a pinch of good old fashioned experience and common sense, they are not foolproof.
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With all the stats that are available these days, it does feel a bit like we are, at times, being told "your eyes are wrong", when you go to a game and cite a poor performance, and this has never been highlighted more than the last 10 games or so, with people at the game, home and away, saying that the performance was terrible, then the xg or whatever saying the opposite.
Historically, it's always been a bit "you weren't there so you don't know", I'm wondering now if the balance is shifting the other way and the benefit of replays, pass maps and suchlike, mean someone sitting at home watching on a PC, can now claim the intellectual high ground?
Personally, I believe what I see over what I hear or read. I've watched enough good and bad football over the last 40 odd years to have earned the right to form an opinion, but then I am an old bugger.
I do work with stats and analytics all day, however, so they definitely have a place, but without a pinch of good old fashioned experience and common sense, they are not foolproof.
The stats are the stats, it's what actually happened, on the other hand, stats have no emotion content.
IMO, it's the emotional & entertainment content that makes the difference.
I'm not sure VI was ever going to deliver entertainment, but the stats suggest he should be able to produce results.
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The stats are the stats, it's what actually happened, on the other hand, stats have no emotion content.
IMO, it's the emotional & entertainment content that makes the difference.
I'm not sure VI was ever going to deliver entertainment, but the stats suggest he should be able to produce results.
If you switched the two halves exactly (meaning no change at all to the intensity, passing, attempts etc) then people would have said how entertaining we were, I am sure of it.
In that case, you'd have watched the same technical ability and shape, but its a hypothetical scenario where we go 3-0 before half time, and then miss a few decent chances to make it a rout. The passing, movement and attempts would all have been the same, yet it would have been called entertaining and people would be shouting for more of the same.
Goals and wins change how people feel about entertainment.
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If you switched the two halves exactly (meaning no change at all to the intensity, passing, attempts etc) then people would have said how entertaining we were, I am sure of it.
In that case, you'd have watched the same technical ability and shape, but its a hypothetical scenario where we go 3-0 before half time, and then miss a few decent chances to make it a rout. The passing, movement and attempts would all have been the same, yet it would have been called entertaining and people would be shouting for more of the same.
Goals and wins change how people feel about entertainment.
Good point.
Add to that the first half was an extension of the previous 900 and tensions were high to say the least.
That's why an early goal is always a nerve settler. If we get one against Preston, the mood will lift straight away.
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But we still created a number of really good chances in the first, half, most of which weren’t even on target . Second half after another few decent chances spurned before some eventually were taken . Games like those it’s important not only the team remains patient but the fans as well .
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Couple of things jump out from Val's interview with the Brum Mail.
“In all the statistics we are top". Except the one that matters Val, which is actually being top. There are 4 teams above us regardless of xg, chances created, chances conceded or number of times the ball touches the corner flag. Stats only tell part of the story, common sense and nous has to apply.
"at some point I need to let go of the frustration and set the energy free." Hopefully this means that he senses the relief after the last 12 minutes on Saturday, and whatever tweaks he made to open us up, will be worked into the next 20 games or so.
He was clearly under a lot of pressure and hopefully this win gets a bit of weight of his shoulders so he can get back to the job in hand, which is, plain and simply, winning games. Come on Val, let's see what you can do.
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Wonder if the pressure got to him?
When under duress it does become hard to think. Maybe that's why he couldn't see the improvements he could make.
Hopefully he learns from the changes on Saturday and presses forward with them.
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Couple of things jump out from Val's interview with the Brum Mail.
“In all the statistics we are top". Except the one that matters Val, which is actually being top. There are 4 teams above us regardless of xg, chances created, chances conceded or number of times the ball touches the corner flag. Stats only tell part of the story, common sense and nous has to apply.
"at some point I need to let go of the frustration and set the energy free." Hopefully this means that he senses the relief after the last 12 minutes on Saturday, and whatever tweaks he made to open us up, will be worked into the next 20 games or so.
He was clearly under a lot of pressure and hopefully this win gets a bit of weight of his shoulders so he can get back to the job in hand, which is, plain and simply, winning games. Come on Val, let's see what you can do.
Sorry, but from a results perspective, stats tell all of the story.
They are telling him that we're creating enough chances to win games, but our conversion is poor.
That's where he needs to focus, all the other areas are ok.
The way we create the chances is not particularly attractive, but, at the moment it's positive results he's after.
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Wonder if the pressure got to him?
When under duress it does become hard to think. Maybe that's why he couldn't see the improvements he could make.
Hopefully he learns from the changes on Saturday and presses forward with them.
I'm sure the incredible "support" from the stands booing the team off at half time helped. He has been under pressure no doubt, but I'd say a proportion of our fan base had a melt down long before the coaching staff.
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I'm sure the incredible "support" from the stands booing the team off at half time helped. He has been under pressure no doubt, but I'd say a proportion of our fan base had a melt down long before the coaching staff.
It's every fans right to boo. I don't boo personally, never have and never will but it's been 20 games of rubbish in the main.
If you give the fans something to cheer then they will. Everyone wants VI to succeed, the fans more than anyone.
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It's every fans right to boo. I don't boo personally, never have and never will but it's been 20 games of rubbish in the main.
If you give the fans something to cheer then they will. Everyone wants VI to succeed, the fans more than anyone.
I agree it’s their right to do that but doesn’t mean they shouldn’t get stick for it. I think it’s appalling. Full time, fair enough if you want to boo having paid for your ticket but mid match is beyond the pale for me. Opposite of support. As it turned out everyone on Saturday who booed at half time made themselves look petty and silly. Let’s face it. Years in the premiership and bouncing back has left a section of our fan base entitled and unappreciative.
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I agree it’s their right to do that but doesn’t mean they shouldn’t get stick for it. I think it’s appalling. Full time, fair enough if you want to boo having paid for your ticket but mid match is beyond the pale for me. Opposite of support. As it turned out everyone on Saturday who booed at half time made themselves look petty and silly.
Sorry i thought you meant boo'ing at end of game rather than in-game. I agree.
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I do find it odd to go to games week after week and boo every time. Fans are entitled to do what they want - they pay £25 quid a game for second tier football while being treated appalingly compared to other sports, with no loyalty from the club itself. Despite all that though, they still choose to go and if you're going to go it's because this is your club and you should want to help them to succeed.
People should really be venting their frusrations in the pub or online post game, not every single half time. I get it if you are going to make a serious point like a protest (look at the Lai out chants and the quick reaction that received), but booing at half time is a lazy protest and only serves to create a toxic atmosphere at the club.
The only way Ismael changes the mood is by making his (so far god awful) system more effective, but it's a shame fans at the ground have turned so quickly. It is unlike match going Albion fans to be this vocal - this quick and it's hard to see how it ends well now.
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Sorry, but from a results perspective, stats tell all of the story.
They are telling him that we're creating enough chances to win games, but our conversion is poor.
That's where he needs to focus, all the other areas are ok.
The way we create the chances is not particularly attractive, but, at the moment it's positive results he's after.
Apologies could be misunderstanding your post but the stats aren't necessarily telling us we are creating enough chances at the moment.
Mark W on here explained it really well, he hasn't been able to get down much this season but works part time in applied sports statistics and while Albion are in theory creating lots of potential chances based on xG, a deeper dive reveals that we are actually creating a disproportionate number of half chances and not enough clear cut ones. The Strikers have of course let him down - Hugill was awful at times while Dike has missed some really glaring opportunities this weekend, but the sort of chances we are usually creating seem to be the ones that aren't really very easy to score at all. If I was to hazard a guess, the issue comes from us being over reliant on one tactic (pumping in Cross after cross from outwide) and not being able to add some variety by moving the ball better through central areas, meaning the ball striker who notches up the "chance" is more often than notnfiring through a crowded penalty area or trying to win the ball in the air.
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Booing at halftime does nothing except create a negative atmosphere around the ground that probably seeps into the team as well as they head in for half. It definitely does not “inspire†or give them a kick in the back to get better as people may think it does.
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Apologies could be misunderstanding your post but the stats aren't necessarily telling us we are creating enough chances at the moment.
Mark W on here explained it really well, he hasn't been able to get down much this season but works part time in applied sports statistics and while Albion are in theory creating lots of potential chances based on xG, a deeper dive reveals that we are actually creating a disproportionate number of half chances and not enough clear cut ones. The Strikers have of course let him down - Hugill was awful at times while Dike has missed some really glaring opportunities this weekend, but the sort of chances we are usually creating seem to be the ones that aren't really very easy to score at all. If I was to hazard a guess, the issue comes from us being over reliant on one tactic (pumping in Cross after cross from outwide) and not being able to add some variety by moving the ball better through central areas, meaning the ball striker who notches up the "chance" is more often than notnfiring through a crowded penalty area or trying to win the ball in the air.
Awww, you're too kind!
You're right though - we have 20+ shots a game an awful lot but how many are pot shots from outside the area? Robinson, Grant and Molumby have all taken fairly tricky shots in recent games and not done a lot with them.
On that thought, do we have a "shoot on sight" policy? And is that going a little too far. How many cute passes in the box do we make? Obviously there are pull-backs sometimes but generally if a player gets into the box they're taking the shot, which makes it easy to defend
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Apologies could be misunderstanding your post but the stats aren't necessarily telling us we are creating enough chances at the moment.
Mark W on here explained it really well, he hasn't been able to get down much this season but works part time in applied sports statistics and while Albion are in theory creating lots of potential chances based on xG, a deeper dive reveals that we are actually creating a disproportionate number of half chances and not enough clear cut ones. The Strikers have of course let him down - Hugill was awful at times while Dike has missed some really glaring opportunities this weekend, but the sort of chances we are usually creating seem to be the ones that aren't really very easy to score at all. If I was to hazard a guess, the issue comes from us being over reliant on one tactic (pumping in Cross after cross from outwide) and not being able to add some variety by moving the ball better through central areas, meaning the ball striker who notches up the "chance" is more often than notnfiring through a crowded penalty area or trying to win the ball in the air.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but expected goals is an algorithm that takes into account the likelihood of scoring from a shot.
At the moment we are second to Fulham on expected goals, that would suggest that we are getting into good positions, but failing to score.
Added to that we are way ahead on expected goals against, so we only need to score one goal to win games.
As you rightly say, a sharper Daryl Dike would have scored at least two on Saturday & Hugill did miss some sitters, but he also had some back luck. I can think of at least 3 shots from Hugill that clipped a defenders heels or went just the wrong side of the post.
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Somebody like Mark who has a better grasp on applied statistics would probably explain it better than I could, but while xG is a useful stat, it isn't something you can fully "hang your hat" on in isolation.
We have a better squad of players than the majority of the league thanks to our budget and the financial issues engulfing the league. The players we have would get into most squads in this division (including Hugill and evidenced by Field, Willcok and Austin currently playing regularly for the 4th placed side in the division).
This allows us to be the dominant team in most games, we control the pitch and usually get the ball around the box. The stats as Mark has said suggest we go over 20 shots a game regularly. This however appears to be creating a false impression with xG. While we should in theory be scoring 2 goals a game according to the metric, this will in part be down to the sheer number of hard to score shots we are taking, and through sheer attrition all of those chances that are unlikely to result in a goal add up and give us a good score. The issue however is that those sides that have 10 shots a game might create 3 clearer goalscoring opportunities than we have in our entire game and so convert theoretical goals into actual goals. Our xG might be 2 compared to their 1.7, but that's because they focused their efforts on creating clear cut chances rather than bombarding the goal with weaker efforts (or football by numbers as some have called it).
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Somebody like Mark who has a better grasp on applied statistics would probably explain it better than I could, but while xG is a useful stat, it isn't something you can fully "hang your hat" on in isolation.
We have a better squad of players than the majority of the league thanks to our budget and the financial issues engulfing the league. The players we have would get into most squads in this division (including Hugill and evidenced by Field, Willcok and Austin currently playing regularly for the 4th placed side in the division).
This allows us to be the dominant team in most games, we control the pitch and usually get the ball around the box. The stats as Mark has said suggest we go over 20 shots a game regularly. This however appears to be creating a false impression with xG. While we should in theory be scoring 2 goals a game according to the metric, this will in part be down to the sheer number of hard to score shots we are taking, and through sheer attrition all of those chances that are unlikely to result in a goal add up and give us a good score. The issue however is that those sides that have 10 shots a game might create 3 clearer goalscoring opportunities than we have in our entire game and so convert theoretical goals into actual goals. Our xG might be 2 compared to their 1.7, but that's because they focused their efforts on creating clear cut chances rather than bombarding the goal with weaker efforts (or football by numbers as some have called it).
This at least in theory is all taking account in the expected goals stat though. It would in the long term be better to create more bad chances with a higher expected goals than few good chances with lower expected goals.
Expected goals isn't perfect but teams generally revert to something approaching the average. Bournemouth were massively outperforming their expected goals at the start of the season and they've since struggled as they reverted to their expected (though still a big overperformance). We did the same with Bilic where in the first half of the season we massively outperformed expected goals and then reverted to the mean and had a very poor second half to the season.
Of course no gurantees we will suddenly start putting goals away, its also about player quality and Grant aside there's no track record of goalscorers in this squad. Brighton had the same issue last season and it never corrected. This is really our biggest issue. We have too many non-scorers in the side. This starts from defence and continues forward. Kipre and Clarke have poor scoring records so set pieces are much reduced as a threat, Furlong and Townsend don't provide goals, Livermore and Molumby won't score, so all the pressure is on the front 3 which is fine if you have 3 attacking players like Gayle, Rodriguez and Barnes, but in this side only Grant of all our options has ever had a 15+ goal season at any level.
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We don't have a Robert Koren or a Graham Dorrans, never mind a Jason Koumas or Mateus Pereira!
That is the crux of the problem.
All 5 CB's are adept at playing at this level, we have 2 unhappy ones already.
The introduction of a playmaker is the biggest single thing we can do to improve.
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If Ajayi is one then who is the second unhappy CB? I've been skim reading about algorithms and how I don't know what constitutes a decent chance.
The second unhappy CB has evaded my attentions and I hope he feels happier about life at the Albion than a number of our supporters do soon.
I wonder if he boos himself in the mirror to replicate the magical match day experience he's missing out on at the Hawthorns.
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Somebody like Mark who has a better grasp on applied statistics would probably explain it better than I could, but while xG is a useful stat, it isn't something you can fully "hang your hat" on in isolation.
We have a better squad of players than the majority of the league thanks to our budget and the financial issues engulfing the league. The players we have would get into most squads in this division (including Hugill and evidenced by Field, Willcok and Austin currently playing regularly for the 4th placed side in the division).
This allows us to be the dominant team in most games, we control the pitch and usually get the ball around the box. The stats as Mark has said suggest we go over 20 shots a game regularly. This however appears to be creating a false impression with xG. While we should in theory be scoring 2 goals a game according to the metric, this will in part be down to the sheer number of hard to score shots we are taking, and through sheer attrition all of those chances that are unlikely to result in a goal add up and give us a good score. The issue however is that those sides that have 10 shots a game might create 3 clearer goalscoring opportunities than we have in our entire game and so convert theoretical goals into actual goals. Our xG might be 2 compared to their 1.7, but that's because they focused their efforts on creating clear cut chances rather than bombarding the goal with weaker efforts (or football by numbers as some have called it).
Think you're referring to this posted by Gazberg in the Athletic thread.
Goes into great detail on our goalscoring problems.
http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4009;area=showposts;start=125 (http://westbrom.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4009;area=showposts;start=125)
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We don't have a Robert Koren or a Graham Dorrans, never mind a Jason Koumas or Mateus Pereira!
That is the crux of the problem.
All 5 CB's are adept at playing at this level, we have 2 unhappy ones already.
The introduction of a playmaker is the biggest single thing we can do to improve.
I would hope that every player not selected in the starting XI is unhappy. That’s what we should expect from any professional footballer.
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Somebody like Mark who has a better grasp on applied statistics would probably explain it better than I could, but while xG is a useful stat, it isn't something you can fully "hang your hat" on in isolation.
We have a better squad of players than the majority of the league thanks to our budget and the financial issues engulfing the league. The players we have would get into most squads in this division (including Hugill and evidenced by Field, Willcok and Austin currently playing regularly for the 4th placed side in the division).
This allows us to be the dominant team in most games, we control the pitch and usually get the ball around the box. The stats as Mark has said suggest we go over 20 shots a game regularly. This however appears to be creating a false impression with xG. While we should in theory be scoring 2 goals a game according to the metric, this will in part be down to the sheer number of hard to score shots we are taking, and through sheer attrition all of those chances that are unlikely to result in a goal add up and give us a good score. The issue however is that those sides that have 10 shots a game might create 3 clearer goalscoring opportunities than we have in our entire game and so convert theoretical goals into actual goals. Our xG might be 2 compared to their 1.7, but that's because they focused their efforts on creating clear cut chances rather than bombarding the goal with weaker efforts (or football by numbers as some have called it).
I follow xG and you make a valid point. A large number of attempts from poor positions cumulatively boosts the xG and can paint an inaccurate picture. xG needs to evolve into giving a breakdown of the total xG score - gilt-edged chances versus speculative long distance punts so that the former can be separately identified.
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Booing at halftime does nothing except create a negative atmosphere around the ground that probably seeps into the team as well as they head in for half. It definitely does not “inspire†or give them a kick in the back to get better as people may think it does.
Playing Devil's advocate, I'm not a booer and wasn't there on Saturday, but, it seems that, as the dissent increased, so did the performance. Val even threw a bit of caution to the wind.
The booing, in general, when I've been there has been minimal to be honest, siloed to a degree and a bit petulant. **** from Saturday was that it was much more vociferous and widespread. Maybe, just maybe, after 10.5 very poor games, it was a case of enough is enough. And, maybe, just maybe, it triggered Val to try something different.
All protests, by nature, are disruptive and counter-productive, but they can also be effective if used properly and at the right time, usually as a last resort. My hope is that rather than Saturday being a divisive episode, it turns into a unifying one and brings the coach more in line with the fans. That, after all, is the best way to stop the boos, once and for all.
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I agree it’s their right to do that but doesn’t mean they shouldn’t get stick for it. I think it’s appalling. Full time, fair enough if you want to boo having paid for your ticket but mid match is beyond the pale for me. Opposite of support. As it turned out everyone on Saturday who booed at half time made themselves look petty and silly. Let’s face it. Years in the premiership and bouncing back has left a section of our fan base entitled and unappreciative.
Worse was the booing when their young full back had to go if with concussion as if it was his fault. Depressing.
Booing your team during a game brings absolutely no benefit at all. it either depresses the players, renders them nervous of making a mistake or completely ****** them off from continuing to try. Not many can say that our players have not been trying - apart from Zohore. Grumble to your neighbour ( we love a grumble) or take it up with the manager afterwards yes but booing during the game? Pointless at best.
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'Booooooo West Boooooowich Albion, boooooo West Boooooowich Albion......' a la the previous Albion tune of Pet Shop Boy fame has a certain ring to it. Not a very positive one though. I imagine it would be great to run your knackers into the ground and have that in your ears as you leave the pitch for your half time team chat. Highly motivational stuff. I'm amazed nobody's thought of it before.
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No need for booing or the what a load of rubbish chants.
It was 0-0 at HT for xxxx sake, we weren't 3-0 down.
No excuse for it whatsoever.
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Steady on Atomic. If we get rid of the rubbish chants the place would be quieter than the grave. We've got to have something to sing. Killjoy ;D .
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We don't have a Robert Koren or a Graham Dorrans, never mind a Jason Koumas or Mateus Pereira!
That is the crux of the problem.
All 5 CB's are adept at playing at this level, we have 2 unhappy ones already.
The introduction of a playmaker is the biggest single thing we can do to improve.
I'm not sure how Val fits a playmaker into his way of playing though. He won't change formation (by the looks of it), so you've got 2 CM, and finding someone who can play like Pierera and defend like Yacob is hard enough with a team with a massive budget.
If we stuck someone like Koumas in there then the remaining CM is just going to be over run being on his own.
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I'm not sure how Val fits a playmaker into his way of playing though. He won't change formation (by the looks of it), so you've got 2 CM, and finding someone who can play like Pierera and defend like Yacob is hard enough with a team with a massive budget.
If we stuck someone like Koumas in there then the remaining CM is just going to be over run being on his own.
He would have to be in the mold of someone like Koren the bloke we missed out on who went to Celtic may have done the job.
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Anyway, getting back on topic Ismael must think we're a strange lot. Gets booed for subbing Diangana earlier in the season. Cheers follow the winning goal.
Boo players off at half time for the combined purpose of showing displeasure and motivating them (apparently), tell him his football's not a hit only to cheer the goals that follow.
Greavsie was right. Funny old game.
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Anyway, getting back on topic Ismael must think we're a strange lot. Gets booed for subbing Diangana earlier in the season. Cheers follow the winning goal.
Boo players off at half time for the combined purpose of showing displeasure and motivating them (apparently), tell him his football's not a hit only to cheer the goals that follow.
Greavsie was right. Funny old game.
Who suggested booing was motivational?
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I'm not sure how Val fits a playmaker into his way of playing though. He won't change formation (by the looks of it), so you've got 2 CM, and finding someone who can play like Pierera and defend like Yacob is hard enough with a team with a massive budget.
If we stuck someone like Koumas in there then the remaining CM is just going to be over run being on his own.
Then we are going to have difficulty scoring for the remainder of the season (with or without Dike).
It's a flawed way of playing.
Every team fears us for our previous ability of navigationg our way out of the Championship. So they stick 10 behind the ball.
However this time we haven't really got an answer to it.
Expect more problems with Livermore an automatic pick alongside Mowatt. You are just asking for someone to carry the ball forward at pace.
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Who suggested booing was motivational?
You implied something to that effect when you were playing Devil's Advocate earlier............
'Playing Devil's advocate, I'm not a booer and wasn't there on Saturday, but, it seems that, as the dissent increased, so did the performance. Val even threw a bit of caution to the wind'.
....... and you know you did which is why you've picked up on it ;D .
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You implied something to that effect when you were playing Devil's Advocate earlier............
'Playing Devil's advocate, I'm not a booer and wasn't there on Saturday, but, it seems that, as the dissent increased, so did the performance. Val even threw a bit of caution to the wind'.
....... and you know you did which is why you've picked up on it ;D .
Like I said, purely playing the devil's sidekick. ;)
No denying the performance picked up as did the result. Val even said something along the lines of, it was time for him to drop the frustration and release the energy.
I'm no booer mate and not condoning it, what I was trying to get at was that it might just be that a positive comes from the negative and it actually galvanises everyone. All I want, is to give peace a chance. (nb Not Jeremy)
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Like I said.......
Yes....... you did didn't you :P ;) .
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Yes....... you did didn't you :P ;) .
I didn't, technically, say it was motivational, just that it had a positive outcome. ;D
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I wonder if the unlucky and devastating injury to Daryl might, in a perverse way, just have a positive flipside that might work in Val's favour in terms of some fans giving him a little extra breathing space?
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I wonder if the unlucky and devastating injury to Daryl might, in a perverse way, just have a positive flipside that might work in Val's favour in terms of some fans giving him a little extra breathing space?
Not a chance, on social media they're already blaming VI for playing him in the first place.
It's like buying a top of the range car & then not taking it on the road in case you scratch it.
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With Dike on sidelines for a few months and Hugill and Zohore not impressing Val will board act to get someone in and if they don’t will this force Ishmael’s hand to at last give our young striker’s a chance. Hate for us to waste a loan fee on another striker who doesn’t know where the back of the net is.
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Can't really blame VI for that injury , three weeks of intense training should be enough . Had it been the first 10 / 15 mins then maybe you could question the staff but Dike had a solid 45 mins on top of 30 at QPR , its bad luck .
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He was probably due to go off shortly after he was injured. I don’t think the manager can be blamed here. Dike was playing well and more than keeping up with the pace, it’s just hard luck.
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I'm not sure how Val fits a playmaker into his way of playing though.
I think the playmaker fits in to one of the front three and that they I interpret the role slightly differently by dropping deep in between the lines, getting on the ball, beating the man and threading passes. We've scored a fair few goals like that this season with Robinson especially doing that but he isn't a top level creator, if we did have one, we'd have turned some of the 0-0s into 1-0s perhaps.
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I'm sure the incredible "support" from the stands booing the team off at half time helped. He has been under pressure no doubt, but I'd say a proportion of our fan base had a melt down long before the coaching staff.
There’s 2 sides to this and neither has the right to claim that theirs is correct ...
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What other club, in any division, would put up with a manager who has a strong squad but whose team has failed to score in 10 matches already
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Get him out, took me a while to turn but he’s totally out his depth with this squad. Enough of the excuses he needs to go tonight, nice hardworking bloke which is a shame. A far far cry from the 4-0 v Sheff U
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Surely no one can come on here and defend this guy after this. Absolutely atrocious, I can’t believe what I’m seeing. Worst manager we have had in many years.
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Surely no one can come on here and defend this guy after this. Absolutely atrocious, I can’t believe what I’m seeing. Worst manager we have had in many years.
The man is clueless. He is an embarrassment to football.
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My prediction he will be back at Barnsley before long
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Got to go now, awful season
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Busted flush. Get him out while we can still make the playoffs.
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Shocking appointment , only clueless owners could appoint this guy for 4 years, he has no idea at all, way out of his depth here. Val out
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Trouble is it is just getting very sad now, the anger will turn to apathy soon and that’s when the club lose fans for good.
I think they’ll sack him in the next couple of days, better to admit the mistake now and move on. Who they move into is another question mind.
This was a very, very bad appointment.
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No signs of any improvement , in fact getting worse at basics . I think enough's enough .
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HAS TO GO!
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No matter how bad we think the squad is, and it IS the worst we’ve had in 15 years, consistently failing to score in the poorest quality Championship in memory is enough for me. Some of the teams we’ve struggled against are absolutely dire
Playoffs are the best we can hope for with the Dike injury, no chance we’re making them under Ismael.
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Got to go. It’s become untenable.
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Needs to go
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Hasn’t improved the player’s at his disposal and his tactics and in game management are non existent Lai do the right think Valball is bloody awful.
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First mistake today was shoehorning Reach in.
Clarke has been one of our better players.
Second mistake is moving Townsend to CB. He was back to his previous form on the weekend so he moves him?
Third mistake is no Robinson?! What has Phillips done?!
Fourth and a constant mistake is overlooking TGH.
In game mistakes - not addressing the left side issue, leaving Reach on, keeping this formation.
The negatives are just stacking up. He’s at the very least on his final sip in the last chance saloon.
Puts in Diangana and then keeps the ball in the air.
Wouldn’t be sad to see him go but very very concerned about where we go from here.
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Val was straight down the tunnel.
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He was easier to support when we were creating chances and not getting the rub of the green but it's been slowly (then not so slowly) going backwards. Tonight the final straw, the players (who I'd sack as well if I could) have downed tools and it's pretty painful viewing. He's finished here. Could argue he's not had the rub of the green at times when you think back to the myriad of missed chances and the Dike injury, but he's had the chance to keep people on side by changing things and stuck to his guns. I expect him gone in the morning. Where we go from there I don't know and I dread to think.
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While I don't think Ismael is the answer, I don't really know where the answer lies.
For starters, the clubs recruitment has now been poor for years. There's been a few decent signings in there, but the only real amazing signing was Pereira - and that was directly through Bilic's connections. Otherwise the starting eleven has pretty much declined precipitously year on year.
The team we have frankly is just not very good, they fluked promotion in 19/20 riding a wave off Bilic good will and then being mid-table form for the second half of the season, only for Brentford to bottle overtaking us. Then we added nothing to a frankly subpar side in the premier, and unsurprisingly got relegated with zero fight. Which leads us to this season where again we added no actual quality to the side.
Battling for the play offs is round about where I would expect the player quality we have to land. There's some names in there who people might think should have us doing better but people like Phillips and Livermore are well past it. How many actual talents do we have? Sam Johnstone is the only player we actually have who would likely actually start for even a single premier league side, everybody else is championship standard in this squad.
The worrying thing for the club is that its been able to afford not going up in 06/07 and 18/19 because we had talents to sell and then reinvest in the squad the next season under a new manager. No one from this squad is going to be worth anything. We will have nothing to invest next season. Regardless of manager.
Until the issue that the club quite frankly has absolutely zero plan of what to do in any long term plan - in recruitment, in youth, in style, in managers, then we will get nowhere. Sack Ismael now, ok. Then we'll very likely end up sacking the replacement before 2022 is up also. Whoever comes next will also have to make do with a downsized scouting that includes only the championship and bottom premier league team reserve players for loans.
Certainly there are issues with Ismael, I am very rarely a fan of managers playing 3 at the back, it almost always leads to creativity problems which we have, but do I have any faith the club would actually approach anyone better? Absolutely zero.
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Sad, angry, frustrated, and a bit scared of where we go from here. Convinced the players are better than that
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Val was straight down the tunnel.
Hopefully jumping in a taxi. This growing toxicity reminds me of Gould and that was bad, really bad.
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MODS seriously, this thread says “head coachâ€
Now I don’t want to be all trading standards….but 😂
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Val was straight down the tunnel.
Hopefully on Eurostar
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Val was straight down the tunnel.
and up s**t creek without a paddle!
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Dan that’s a great post and there are things there that back some thoughts I have that we should stick with him because it feels like we’ve gone with a long term plan that includes Ismaël and supporting him and part of me thinks long term planning may lead to a dip in the short term as the transition is made.
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Great post Dan. I said that Ismael had to work or we were ******. It hasn't worked. We are ******.
Best case scenario, we replicate Swansea, Cardiff, Stoke and become a run of the mill play off chaser.
Worst case - we follow Sunderland, Wolves, Hull Blackpool, Norwich, Sheff Utd, Leicester City (amongst others) who suffer 2 relegation in a short period from Prem to league 1.
Both scenarios now look more likely than us going back up. The club has made wrong decision after wrong decision and we are now in a position where we will find it very difficult to get back to the prem. Buckle up for a lot of **** taking from the inbred rivals from North and South over the next decade.
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I wonder where we would have been with Wagner
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Which imbecile gave him 4 years?Should be sacked tonight.
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We are still in good position for the playoffs automatics probably gone
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I feel Ishmail is going to join an infamous list of managers we wince at when their name is mentioned, it's sad but I think that's where we are at.
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Reminds me of a few ex managers who did great at smaller clubs but failed miserably at the albion
Buckley at Grimsby
Smith at Oxford
Val at Barnsley
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An awful manager. Get rid of him
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If anybody wants a laugh then here you go. This is my experience in the last 10 minutes:
Your team puts in their worst performance in years, loses, the fans are turning and another manager is out on his last legs, the road ahead looks bumpy.
Girlfriend walks in: “would you kill somebody for me if my life depended on it?†(Me - context please?) “if I was kidnapped and sold into prostitution…..â€
:-\
I am a mod and this is not relevant but you all need to smile right and she just made me laugh with that!!
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He isn’t the only problem and it will take a heck of a manager to improve this central midfield, but he has to go.
Worst performance I’ve seen in what, 15 years?
Players look disinterested, don’t know what the plan is and that’s a bad sign.
No idea how to string a move together whatsoever.
Who knows who else we can bring in though.
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If anybody wants a laugh then here you go. This is my experience in the last 10 minutes:
Your team puts in their worst performance in years, loses, the fans are turning and another manager is out on his last legs, the road ahead looks bumpy.
Girlfriend walks in: “would you kill somebody for me if my life depended on it?†(Me - context please?) “if I was kidnapped and sold into prostitution…..â€
:-\
I am a mod and this is not relevant but you all need to smile right and she just made me laugh with that!!
It was Val that has just kidnapped her…honest
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They'll be no crowd soon. That or it will be toxic as hell. He has no idea how a game is unfolding, completely useless ingame management and add his substitutions are baffling. We played with 1 center back in a back 3 for most the second half today and the other week in the cup we didn't have a single recognized center midfielder on the pitch in the latter stages of the game.
Cant think of a single player who has improved while this Ismael has been in charge.
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The general resignation from all involved, the lack of energy, leadership and passion on the pitch matched from the sidelines - again tonight, just wandering onto the pitch like it's a preseason friendly - is leading to a toxic environment and that is only going to end with one conclusion.
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If I had hair, I would be tearing it out now. Shear frustration of a useless person.
I have sacked people for not doing their job, but he isn't even fit to be employed in the first place.
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We are still in good position for the playoffs automatics probably gone
We are going backwards and accelerating back, you can forget play offs with this manager / squad combination- it’s broken beyond repair now
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The general resignation from all involved, the lack of energy, leadership and passion on the pitch matched from the sidelines - again tonight, just wandering onto the pitch like it's a preseason friendly - is leading to a toxic environment and that is only going to end with one conclusion.
The word resignation got me all excited
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The general resignation from all involved, the lack of energy, leadership and passion on the pitch matched from the sidelines - again tonight, just wandering onto the pitch like it's a preseason friendly - is leading to a toxic environment and that is only going to end with one conclusion.
I get where all this anger is coming from but still think it’s a bit hysterical. Not personal to the poster but top six team finishing fifth isn’t going to induce the next world war.
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The word resignation got me all excited
At least you got excited once tonight 😉
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I get where all this anger is coming from but still think it’s a bit hysterical. Not personal to the poster but top six team finishing fifth isn’t going to induce the next world war.
You clearly did not watch that
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Reminds me of a few ex managers who did great at smaller clubs but failed miserably at the albion
Buckley at Grimsby
Smith at Oxford
Val at Barnsley
It was an awful decision when Wilder was available and wanted the job.
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At least you got excited once tonight 😉
Are we on about premature congratulations?
"Ooer matron".
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You clearly did not watch that
No, as I have said elsewhere. Didn’t see the game tonight. I think that helps sometimes longer term
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Just posted this on another thread by mistake,
The way this is shaping up we will need replacements for button : Johnston: Ajayi: Snodgrass : Clarke: Hugill : Zohore : Manager : coaches (apologies for calling them that) all in next 6 months, so much for stability and building. Right plan, wrong man !!! Will have dire consequences
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It was an awful decision when Wilder was available and wanted the job.
Just playing devils advocate with you BUT 99.9% of our fanbase decided our last DOF of footballer who wanted to employ Wilder was a clown and Kipre was the worst signing ever.
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It was an awful decision when Wilder was available and wanted the job.
He had 1 bad season at Sheff Utd so was clearly not qualified ;)
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I get where all this anger is coming from but still think it’s a bit hysterical. Not personal to the poster but top six team finishing fifth isn’t going to induce the next world war.
Exactly. People are acting like we are 18th
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There is no game plan, no intent to keep possession of the ball and control any game I’ve seen in the last 3 months. It stinks! Reminds me of playing football back in the day at school on the field when we had 50 lads hopelessly chasing after one ball
I’d sooner bring in Steve Bruce for some stability and make a shot at the playoffs or someone to build for next season because at this rate we’re going to finish mid table
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Incredible post
Why? Weird message. Sometimes when you get so disappointed in the game you can’t zoom out.
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Exactly. People are acting like we are 18th
The way we are set up, we may be sooner rather than later.
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We are done for now.
Writings been on the wall for 4 months and board did nothing.
Sheff utd spotted their bad appointment and came to a deal. Good ownership compared to ours.
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I wonder where we would have been with Wagner
He’s not done anything since the X factor.
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No, as I have said elsewhere. Didn’t see the game tonight. I think that helps sometimes longer term
I’ve been supporting Val, and I think tomorrow I might be a little bit softer on him, but 20,000 of us have sat freezing tonight and watched our worse performance in years. We hoofed it more than we have all season and even though it wasn’t working we just kept doing it.
He’s lost the crowd to an extent that I think will be near impossible to turn around. Whether or not that’s completely his fault I’m not sure, but in football this usually ends one way. We should be much better than that.
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Why? Weird message. Sometimes when you get so disappointed in the game you can’t zoom out.
I did delete my message after reading it twice. I read it wrong the first time.
I recommend you keep your eyes closed if you want to see us succeed under Val mate
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We are done for now.
Writings been on the wall for 4 months and board did nothing.
Sheff utd spotted their bad appointment and came to a deal. Good ownership compared to ours.
Knowing us we would probably go and appoint him lol
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Exactly. People are acting like we are 18th
At least they are consistent. Acted like we were 24th two weeks ago.
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Has he gone yet?
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Has he gone yet?
He's about 4 months late in going to date
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I’ve been supporting Val, and I think tomorrow I might be a little bit softer on him, but 20,000 of us have sat freezing tonight and watched our worse performance in years. We hoofed it more than we have all season and even though it wasn’t working we just kept doing it.
He’s lost the crowd to an extent that I think will be near impossible to turn around. Whether or not that’s completely his fault I’m not sure, but in football this usually ends one way. We should be much better than that.
I’d agree with you - should have got more points so far. But I don’t agree with anyone who thinks changing the coaching staff at this stage is good thing.
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Has he gone yet?
The board and owners seem to be wimps. No guts, no desire and no direction.
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Had an eye opener last night when an ex-player, with very strong connections with the club, told me that the players and coaches hate the system and the training and the only backing Val has is the suits who employed him. Brushed it off a bit, but tonight backed up everything he said.
Not normally ITK but this conversation happened 24 hours before that atrocity.
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Always try to back managers and be patient but tonight feels like things have come to a head. Val is in trouble but the clubs a mess....
Do we have anyone in the hierarchy who knows what they are doing? I know he has a 4 year contract but Lai also wants us back in the prem so we can be sold so....
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I actually think those players were still trying for him but not at all comfortable with what he wants , the endless hoofball gives me a headache . This squad is limited but they are better than this as much as I'd like some gone .
Val might see Millwall but that will finish him IMO .
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You would think the board have noticed the dreadful form over the past several months but has giving him a 4 year contract tied their hands?
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Had an eye opener last night when an ex-player, with very strong connections with the club, told me that the players and coaches hate the system and the training and the only backing Val has is the suits who employed him. Brushed it off a bit, but tonight backed up everything he said.
Not normally ITK but this conversation happened 24 hours before that atrocity.
Tells me more about some of the players we have at the club than just the manager to be honest.
No defending tonight’s performance by the sounds of it (didn’t watch), but I truly look at this squad of players and hate seeing what we’ve become.
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The E&S report gives him a kicking, they’ve been fairly light on him in recent weeks but seems they’ve had enough now as well.
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Had an eye opener last night when an ex-player, with very strong connections with the club, told me that the players and coaches hate the system and the training and the only backing Val has is the suits who employed him. Brushed it off a bit, but tonight backed up everything he said.
Not normally ITK but this conversation happened 24 hours before that atrocity.
They should all follow him out of the door, downed tools under Bilic & Allardyce half these lot absolute disgrace the lot of them.
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I was laughed at when I said Peterborough away this bloke was wrong, anyone still disagree?
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I’ve been supporting Val, and I think tomorrow I might be a little bit softer on him, but 20,000 of us have sat freezing tonight and watched our worse performance in years. We hoofed it more than we have all season and even though it wasn’t working we just kept doing it.
He’s lost the crowd to an extent that I think will be near impossible to turn around. Whether or not that’s completely his fault I’m not sure, but in football this usually ends one way. We should be much better than that.
The bit in bold is where I'm at really. Albion crowds rarely turn like this - it might be the first time since the 90's this has happened - and If you look a precedents elsewhere (Newcaslte and Everton being 2 good examples) it is very rare for it to turn around.
The club might try to ride it out but a toxic, damaged relationship has set in. The fans don't like Ismael and I don't think Ismael likes the fans. It's a mess.
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I was laughed at when I said Peterborough away this bloke was wrong, anyone still disagree?
Was the moment he lost me as well, his reaction should have been we were terrible and got away with it. Not jumping around like we’d knocked Man U out of the cup.
Pure small time.
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I was laughed at when I said Peterborough away this bloke was wrong, anyone still disagree?
Nope…a very lucky 3rd minute stoppage time winner against a very poor team…and some were calling him the “god of football†shocking
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0-1 down at home and you take off Livermore and replace him with Molumby! The man is inept as he is incapable of adapting his plan, the players know it and also know dissent means you are ostracised, he cannot manage people, it’s clear .
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Just pull the plug, he's incapable of turning this around.
Carlon Grant cost us more than the whole of Prestons starting 11.
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I like to give every manager a fair chance and I've done that with Val but even I can't see this relationship ending well.
Val's relationship with the fans has been awful for a while but now it seems beyond repair. If he's still in charge we'll be lucky if there are 17,000 next home game.
Added to that Val has lost Snodgrass and rumour has it Johnstone now as well.
Results are poor, performances are worse and getting worse if anything.
Can't see him lasting much longer.
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I was laughed at when I said Peterborough away this bloke was wrong, anyone still disagree?
I’m not going to give anyone who calls for a manager’s head after 6 matches credit. 4 wins 1 loss(cup loss) and 1 draw at that point. You were not a fortune teller. You were simply insane.
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I was laughed at when I said Peterborough away this bloke was wrong, anyone still disagree?
It was the moment it all fell apart. As rubbish as our board are i'm sure even they expected him to have something other than this.
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I’m not going to give anyone who calls for a manager’s head after 6 matches credit. 4 wins 1 loss(cup loss) and 1 draw at that point. You were not a fortune teller. You were simply insane.
Thinking a manager is out of his depth Early on , does not make-anybody insane…
However Einstein once said doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insane…and he was quite clever?
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Tells me more about some of the players we have at the club than just the manager to be honest.
No defending tonight’s performance by the sounds of it (didn’t watch), but I truly look at this squad of players and hate seeing what we’ve become.
They ARE trying, they just hate his methods, his attitude and his approach.
You've clearly never worked for a poor manager who threatens you or "manages you out" if you question methods or results.
They are terrified of speaking out so they try and follow his instructions even though they are not working.
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They should all follow him out of the door, downed tools under Bilic & Allardyce half these lot absolute disgrace the lot of them.
Have to agree with this to an extent. I didn’t want Big Sam but he saw through a lot of the dross and left them out. He would have got us promoted this season but he wouldn’t have been offered the job because the powers that be at this club would not have appointed him. He would have had the balls to stand up to them as would Wilder. Val was there choice because he was prepared to do things on a tight budget without complaining.
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I’m not going to give anyone who calls for a manager’s head after 6 matches credit. 4 wins 1 loss(cup loss) and 1 draw at that point. You were not a fortune teller. You were simply insane.
It wasn’t about calling for his head, it was about the man clearly not getting what Albion are about and seriously misjudging what that result meant. He got lucky, but pretended like it was tactical genius.
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I like to give every manager a fair chance and I've done that with Val but even I can't see this relationship ending well.
Val's relationship with the fans has been awful for a while but now it seems beyond repair. If he's still in charge we'll be lucky if there are 17,000 next home game.
Added to that Val has lost Snodgrass and rumour has it Johnstone now as well.
Results are poor, performances are worse and getting worse if anything.
Can't see him lasting much longer.
Tip of the iceberg mate
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They ARE trying, they just hate his methods, his attitude and his approach.
You've clearly never worked for a poor manager who threatens you or "manages you out" if you question methods or results.
They are terrified of speaking out so they try and follow his instructions even though they are not working.
Yep
Although you’d think most would be happy to be left out now?
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I’m not going to give anyone who calls for a manager’s head after 6 matches credit. 4 wins 1 loss(cup loss) and 1 draw at that point. You were not a fortune teller. You were simply insane.
Out of order comment. I didn’t mean it in terms of the results at the time but I could tell his style of play was not suited. Tony Mowbray said it after we beat them.
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Thinking a manager is out of his depth Early on , does not make-anybody insane…
However Einstein once said doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insane…and he was quite clever?
Actually that’s the most misattributed and inaccurately used quote of all time
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I was at pboro away and though I was not calling for anyones head the football we played was abysmal in plan and execution, to be trying the same rubbish 6 months later is inexcusable, so not insane to comment on it, then or now, at all.
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If we don't shift SJ now that's another expensive addition to Vals Bomb Squad on top.
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Vals comments post-match from OS
" "We deserve criticism tonight because it was a poor performance.
"Every time we've had a chance to close the gap on teams around us this season we’ve missed it, and this is another one.
"We didn’t produce the right performance and we didn’t manage to do all the things we wanted to carry out, but there can’t be any excuses.
"It was a strange feeling and we didn’t expect to see this, especially after the win against Peterborough on Saturday.
"The good thing about football in the Championship is that there’s another game and another opportunity in three days time for us to bounce back.
"We have to show a reaction, embrace the fight and now we need to show another mentality."
Is this bloke taking the mick?
You've done the same thing week in and week out for over 20 games since it was countered and has produced poor results and performances. You've not changed your tactics or personnel when possible and you expect things to be different?
He can't seriously believe beating Peterborough 3-0 meant anything. They are a league 1 team on a seasons holiday in the Champo.
Give me strength.
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Put him on a rocket to mars - just get him out of here.
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The man’s head is so far up his own backside it’s unbelievable. He really thinks that his tactics are unquestionable. Totally deluded. Words fail. We will get the same dross at Millwall in the next match. Arrogant beyond belief.
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His comments become more and more bizarre.
Saturday was the worst performance of the season until 77 minutes.
Why did he think tonight would be any different when he plays the exact same way against better opposition.
He’s lucky the next game is away, he’s lost the crowd completely.
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The man’s head is so far up his own backside it’s unbelievable. He really thinks that his tactics are unquestionable. Totally deluded. Words fail. We will get the same dross at Millwall in the next match. Arrogant beyond belief.
He has never once looked at himself, that's one of the (many) worst things about him. Always someone elses fault. A helpless victim in it all.
As Liam said. Get him out of here.
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Vals comments post-match from OS
" "We deserve criticism tonight because it was a poor performance.
"Every time we've had a chance to close the gap on teams around us this season we’ve missed it, and this is another one.
"We didn’t produce the right performance and we didn’t manage to do all the things we wanted to carry out, but there can’t be any excuses.
"It was a strange feeling and we didn’t expect to see this, especially after the win against Peterborough on Saturday.
"The good thing about football in the Championship is that there’s another game and another opportunity in three days time for us to bounce back.
"We have to show a reaction, embrace the fight and now we need to show another mentality."
Is this bloke taking the mick?
You've done the same thing week in and week out for over 20 games since it was countered and has produced poor results and performances. You've not changed your tactics or personnel when possible and you expect things to be different?
He can't seriously believe beating Peterborough 3-0 meant anything. They are a league 1 team on a seasons holiday in the Champo.
Give me strength.
Fix it mate.
Is this bloke taking crack?
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Fix it mate.
Is this bloke taking crack?
He's on something. He's deluded beyond belief.
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He's lost the dressing room and the crowd. He is not going to lose his job unfortunately.
We will not win play offs if we are lucky enough to make them, so we will just have to endure this turgid rubbish until the end of the season. I just hope the board will be brave and admit they got it badly wrong (again) and bring in someone else. I worry that they won't.
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The club have two problems -
1. He has lost the supporters. That relationship is beyond repair.
2. He has seemingly lost the players. I’m not one to talking of losing dressing rooms as I find it a bit of a cliche but look at their reaction both before and after the second goal. It is a group that have given up. I think I only recall Mowatt who looked remotely bothered at getting back and that was out of loyalty to his mate. The rest? Meh.
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Well he has taken some blame, in the interest of being fair he's said this in Brum mail
"“We understand everything. We accept it,†he added. “I take my responsibility and when we see something like that, they have the right to boo and criticise.â€"
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"West Brom Xtra
@WestBromXtra
Meeting imminent between Val and the board regarding his future at the club. Dressing room has been lost. #wba"
West Brom Xtra
@WestBromXtra
Whether he is sacked or not is still up to them to decide. Ismael has been on thin ice since before Coventry, let’s see what happens. #wba
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Worst performance in 30 years since the days of Gould. Not 1 shot on target.
The only shock was he actually subbed off Livermore.
Absolutely no intent to play any football, just lumping from centre backs becuause neither Mowatt or Livermore actually wanted the ball.
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I can imagine him going in dressing room post match and asking if "is this my fault" and players knowing they will get bombed, clam up!
He believes he is vindicated and they have to have to take responsibility, it's megalomania
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I can imagine him going in dressing room post match and asking if "is this my fault" and players knowing they will get bombed, clam up!
He believes he is vindicated and they have to have to take responsibility, it's megalomania
Ismael to a tee- a megalomanic.
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And in his defence - some of those players need to take a look at themselves. The attitudes and performances of some of them go behind the manager. Plenty of them tonight were struggling with basic 5 yard passes. That’s not the responsibility or blame of the manager.
The arm waving, failing to track back as they bare down on our goal. That’s on these swines.
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Some of the players are gutless cowards but he knew what they are like surely. Surely he watched our games from last year. He then proceeded to pick the same ones week in, week out. That is on him.
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The players will know why Sam was not in squad tonight and if there is any truth in the rumours of a bust up with VI, it will have an effect on them all.
Then he removed there captain for a like for like, he is not helping himself,
This squad is demotivated and when things swing against you in that situation you need a leader to support and help you, who can say they see VI as a leader ??
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Can someone tell me one thing he has done at the Albion that is an improvement on where we were before he joined.
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Tumbleweed
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Can someone tell me one thing he has done at the Albion that is an improvement on where we were before he joined.
Improved our XG? ;D
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I’ve been trying to work out if I’m being harsh and if it really should be about him being given time to build his own side.
If the club have this 4 year plan then that’s what they’ve intended and it suggests he’s going nowhere soon.
But I just keep coming back to the fact that he shows absolutely zero tactical nous, flexibility or willingness to adapt. Overall that is pretty terrifying. Even the awful managers we’ve had in the past at least tried different things.
I think the only thing he did was slightly change the intensity of the press. However now we’re left with something which seemingly no one (including the players) knows what it is.
Even on the own players front - Mowatt knows him and how he plays. Mowatt looks completely abject, not even in the games. Not one player he’s been involved in bringing in (I’m excluding Dike here for obvious reasons) has looked up to it.
So I just cannot see this improving - there are huge red flags.
We can all agree the players aren’t performing for whatever reason- but a good (even decent) manager gets players performing- including sub standard players.
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Our goals conceded had improved in fairness.
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Our goals conceded had improved in fairness.
Yep I’d give you that. Then again we were in the Prem last year. Not the worst championship in memory.
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I never turn on a manager. But this is becoming worse than pulis quickly
I’ve backed but ive totally changed my mind. He’s a manager and hes not managing the situation at all well. Change is needed. Players need life again.
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Has he gone yet
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I’ve had time to think. There is just so much wrong with this club and has been for a long time. What Val has inherited was rotten and to blame him for it all seems wrong. He doesn’t help himself though. The best thing he can do if he has a board meeting and they keep him on is change the god damn formation.
The recruitment has been dire.
The contract handling has been dire. The likes of Phillips, Livermore, Bartley should be gone.
The changes in style; Pulis…Moore…Bilic…Allardyce…Val…
There is no forward planning and if we sacked Val then I have no faith in them to do well with replacing him.
If Val goes I will feel no better than if he stays.
I want a new board with a vision for this club.
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I’ve had time to think. There is just so much wrong with this club and has been for a long time. What Val has inherited was rotten and to blame him for it all seems wrong. He doesn’t help himself though. The best thing he can do if he has a board meeting and they keep him on is change the god damn formation.
The recruitment has been dire.
The contract handling has been dire. The likes of Phillips, Livermore, Bartley should be gone.
The changes in style; Pulis…Moore…Bilic…Allardyce…Val…
There is no forward planning and if we sacked Val then I have no faith in them to do well with replacing him.
If Val goes I will feel no better than if he stays.
I want a new board with a vision for this club.
We all do but it's not happening anytime soon Lewis. We don't stick with a bad investment to see how low our stock can go. That mentality will always surprise you in a negative way.
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It's hard to see how having given him the contract his staff, Mozart and Duke how the board go to lai and say sorry boss, wrong man for the job.
What a mess
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Posted by gazberg when DO was appointed,
Athletic have put up an article about him just. They spoke to various people who have worked with him.
To summarize:
Very strong leadership qualities, you would ride into battle for him.
Commands respect. CLear in what he wants and expects.
Understands the game very well from playing days as well as young managerial career.
Plays to his squads strength while pressing and passing
Then the usual about making it unpleasant for anyone to play his teams
Also says will demand a lot from Ken, won't accept complacency from him.
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Can’t see him lasting much longer especially now the fans down the Hawthorns have turned on him but he shouldn’t take all the blame. Head of recruitment should be shown door as well as good few senior player’s who let’s be frank aren’t up too much.
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An abysmal performance, but at least Val seemed to own up to it. I don't think the players can get off without criticism. They need to give 100% whatever system is played, but how many of them can say that's what they did this evening? Preston seemed more determined and won most of the 50-50 tackles. As Val said earlier in the season, do they want to be promoted?
Most damning was no shots on target all game. It was a mixture of the service into the forwards being poor and the forwards not being skilful or determined enough to do better with the few chances coming their way. The worry is that, aside from Dike, just about all the squad members have been given a chance. So these are the players who will have to up their game if we are to get near the play offs.
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Posted by gazberg when DO was appointed,
Athletic have put up an article about him just. They spoke to various people who have worked with him.
To summarize:
Very strong leadership qualities, you would ride into battle for him.
Commands respect. CLear in what he wants and expects.
Understands the game very well from playing days as well as young managerial career.
Plays to his squads strength while pressing and passing
Then the usual about making it unpleasant for anyone to play his teams
Also says will demand a lot from Ken, won't accept complacency from him.
It all sounded so promising at the time and indeed it was for 5 games until Darren Ferguson went and countered Valball.
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It feels weird as we are 5th in the league but things really arent right are they!
I was told some information last week about a number of things, i dont claim to be ITK but this was from a current Albion senior employer, i dont know anything about transfers, etc but he did tell me some stuff from the last couple of seasons (we work together on a few things so got to know each other and i saw him tonight and he was fine if i wanted to post something as its supposedly common knowledge at the club anyway)
So it goes back to Bilic to start, he was loved by the players as he was very relaxed and a good man manager, however they let him down badly during lockdown which the board blamed him for. As with most clubs, Albion put in a training plan for the players over lockdown, however due to the relationship Slav had with the players, the fact we were flying, etc he was quite relaxed about it and trusted them to do a lot of fitness work (as supplied by the club) and wasnt always on their backs.
Although they all did it, some were a bit too relaxed (not all players but enough for it to be a problem) and apparently he was fuming when we started playing again as there were games every few days and so we never really caught up where as those around us used the lockdown break better than us, Leeds romped it and Brentford came close.
Supposedly the board were fuming but Bilic took the blame for them which got the players off the hook but also damaged his already rocky relationship with the board even more and it got to the stage where they were just waiting to sack him and had already sounded out Big Sam a month prior to sacking Slav.
Diangana didnt actually want to join the Albion and was devastated when West Ham made it clear he wasnt wanted, he only came here because of his relationship with Slav but the move instead of making him feel like a wanted premier league player, actually went the other way and he lost his confidence.
Big Sam came in and was far from impressed with the players, apparently there was a lot of sulking about Slav going and again there were a number who just didnt buy into his methods, Pereira actually wanted out in last January but the club agreed he could go in the summer regardless so whether we had stayed up or went down, he was going.
Apparently Big Sam actually was tempted to stay on (i thought it was a money thing) but he said it was too old for the challenge, however the feedback he gave the board was that they needed a strong manager and if he was younger he would of liked to of got stuck into the squad and tore it apart as there are a number of the players who think they rule the roost and carry very big ego's, and needed to be moved on ASAP.
On a side note, i always felt it came across Big Sam thought he was doing us a favour being here but apparently he is the most prepared and thorough manager we have had for a long time, very similar to Hodgson, however this squad made him feel that he didnt want to be involved in football management anymore which i think says a lot about the squad (of course, money may make Big Sam think again!)
So Albion started looking for a strict discipline type manager based on Big Sams feedback, apparently we spoke to Lampard but both parties at the time thought it wasnt a right fit, Albion thought he would be more Bilic than Big Sam and Big Sam was adamant we had to get a strong manager.
Wilder was very close but Lai didnt trust him, so after a few calls, we settled on Ismael. Ismael supposedly spoke to Big Sam before taking the job and was told do not sacrifice anything for these players as they will throw you under the bus and it seems that is whats happening now.
Apparently when Ismael first arrived, the players were not over struck with his insistence on stats but he made it clear it would be his way, we got off to a good start and that helped but then teams started sussing us and thats when the ego's started to raise their heads again, Ismael was not afraid to challenge them and told them either do it his way or you would be moved on.
Supposedly Snodgrass is a very popular bloke, very well liked but also very old school and doesnt agree with Ismaels obsession with stats, what started off as a civil chat escalated and both sides were too blame, Ismael was a bit OTT with his strictness on its his way or no way but Snodgrass supposedly was very disrespectful, but there a few bad apples at the Albion right now who are playing their part in poor team togetherness.
He also told me last week that Johnstone wouldnt be involved, he said he couldnt say why incase it did get out, so i have no clue to what the reasoning is, i was going to post saturday but as i have been an Ismael fan it may of come across because we won it was a told you so (which it wouldnt of been)
Ismael did have the backing of the board, they knew they wanted a strong manager who would overhaul the squad on a sensible budget and try and build a team, however after tonight i dont know if thats still the case.
I actually think the plan is correct, weed out the players who have failed in the premier league (where we want to be) on more than one occasion, but it doesnt happen straight away and i think Ismaels system is so extreme and for it to work properly you need everyone buying in at least and ideally a number of players suited to that way, sadly we dont have either of those things.
It may well work once Ismael gets his own players in but i have feeling too much damage will be done, the gates are down and the fans have turned (again) and i dont know how or if he can turn it around without sacrificing his beliefs and going back on what got him the job in the first place which would also end up letting the prima donas win, they would see off another manager and yet they get to stay, it just doesnt seem right.
Personally i am very torn, i want Ismael to succeed and get rid of some of these wasters and i think given time he probably would but i just dont see him getting that time and how much damage would be done to the club, fanbase, etc before we got to the stage where it did work.
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Just returned from the match; my first for 3 years. My journey into the Albion family started when my Grandfather first took me up as a kid in the days of Brian Talbot so sadly I just missed the wonder years; 15 years of season tickets followed with dozens of away games. I have 2 daughters now that are largely uninterested in football, however I still watch 90% of live (TV) games and follow us incessantly.
I’ve seen some awful teams over the years, perhaps our worst ever……however tonight (for me) was harrowing to witness.
Watching on TV affords much leeway; and in the comfort of your home with a wine in your hand makes it much easier to remain positive and perhaps be less critical.
Tonight has given me a serious wake up call; that was woeful….so so woeful. In 97 minutes their keeper wasn’t tested once. We were so devoid of purpose or creation it was frightening; no tempo, invention or anticipation. No flair, confidence, belief, grit, and sadly no will to win.
When Val took over, I was taken aback by the striking tempo at which we started games and often looked like we could score 2/3 in the first 20 minutes. There have been games where we could have put teams to the sword early doors if our finishing had been better. Despite this, we would often fall back into our shells in later stages of games and appear to ‘get lost’; something I accepted was a byproduct of our game-plan.
To now…..we start flat and look lost for the entire game. I hate to call for a managers head, but please….I now have accepted that there’s irrefutable regression in our team, style of play and confidence. A more cynical person that me would suggest the players are voting with their feet.
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Interesting post Albion79 and a lot of it makes sense and seems fair.
Ismael and this squad are just not suited at the end of the day.
I said this squad needed tearing apart. It's too weak mentally and physically and whoever is giving out 3 year deals to Phillips etc wants shooting
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Needs to go now.
The place was bubbling discontent with much of the tepid one dimensional rubbish served up but add in clueless tonight.
The Hawthorns exploded with anger this evening; those who didn't show content either sat in morbid silence or left from 70 minutes onwards.
No real chance of turning this around now I feel.
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I actually think the plan is correct, weed out the players who have failed in the premier league (where we want to be) on more than one occasion, but it doesnt happen straight away and i think Ismaels system is so extreme and for it to work properly you need everyone buying in at least and ideally a number of players suited to that way, sadly we dont have either of those things.
Thanks for a very interesting post, all lines up with what we've seen. Particularly the players downing tools in the first lockdown and not keeping up fitness - we looked miles out of it compared to our rivals after lockdown.
The quoted part is the concern though. Almost all of this squad has been signed under Lai's stewardship. Yet the club has done absolutely nothing to improve its recruitment. We got rid of Dowling, but the recruitment last summer was even less imaginative than anything he could have dreamed up. A selection of free transfer signings from last seasons championship, and two bottom of the barrel loans from bottom end premier league reserves. If our plan truly was/is to weed out the bad eggs and replace them, we've done absolutely no work to make recruitment better. I don't claim its an easy job to pick out the new Toney's and Watkin's from the lower leagues, or the Buendia's and Pukki's from abroad - but we don't even appear to be trying.
As it stands, well, firstly, I sincerely doubt any of this squad is in demand to overhaul anyway, but with a dwindling budget and no recruitment talent, any new signings will continue to be Adam Reach kind of fare, free transfers of players from the championship.
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Thank you for that post Albion79 - Some of this stuff I have heard on and off from someone ITK already and whilst the words I used in the Livermore thread a couple of weeks ago were considered "over the line" by this message board at the time leading to the deletion of what I said - this has only further vindicated everything that I posted, just with more words used in a better way.
edit: P.S. Val's position looks untenable now unfortunatley, has lost the fans and tonight was the first time I think he lost the players too. (Judas backstabbers and all)
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What I'd give for a Big Sam or Hodgson type to come in and sort this mess out. They won't stand for this nonsense.
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As Dan says, the worry is to get rid of these players, somebody has to want them and a number of these players, this is as good as it gets, they have found their level.
The playing staff does need an overhaul but that takes time, we will have to wait players to run out of contracts whilst trying to bring new ones in, the whole time Val, or whoever the manager is will have to try and use those players despite him not wanting them and them knowing that too!
I really dont know what the answer is as i think things will get worse before they get better but it seems the fanbase has already seen enough, i suppose its whether the board has.
It wont happen because its not football manager and the board would say we are paying these wasters big wages so we dont care that they dont want to play your way, you have to play them, but i would love Val to go public with who wants to play his way, play them and make up the rest of the team with promising youngsters for now.
In the meantime, create a bomb squad of those who dont want to play his way (he knows who they are), keep them away from those who do and basically have a firesale and make it clear in public they are available for transfer ASAP. If it was a one off i would side with the players but a number of these were here for Moore, Bilic, and Big Sam, two were sacked and the other turned his back on football management after working with them so these players will continue to let managers down and need to be gone ASAP.
Sadly it will never happen but we can dream!
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Interesting insight from 79, the fish rots from the head and all that. The club has sunk since Lai took over and won’t improve til he leaves and we have some football knowledge and leadership at the top of the club. Val is a symptom of this and so is the seemingly poisonous bunch players. The club feels rotten.
In a perfect world, Lai would leave , take Val with him and a new broom would sweep the problem players away. We’ve been here before so know it ain’t that simple or quick .
We can’t rebuild a squad with Val now, maybe he’s lost the players but he’s definitely lost the fans so in the short term a new ‘strong’ character needs to try to rebuild this squad to get some performances and results. I don’t expect a quick resolution and think we could drop much further before boinging back this time, especially if Lai remains.
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No one in their right mind would've persisted with Hugill for so long or chose Livermore to start 90% of matches.
Ismael's problems are self inflicted.
We hit on the right formula v Coventry away, and he's chucked it away since.
Molumby and Gardner Hickmam at least give us mobility.
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This isn't an attack on Val, he's rubbish but not to blame.for everything wrong with the club but I think we are about to enter a very dark period similar to 30 years ago if they don't get the next appointment right
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No one in their right mind would've persisted with Hugill for so long or chose Livermore to start 90% of matches.
Ismael's problems are self inflicted.
We hit on the right formula v Coventry away, and he's chucked it away since.
Molumby and Gardner Hickmam at least give us mobility.
14 pts from last 36 available and 6 of those came from Coventry and Reading when he couldn't pick his faves. The other win was against Peterborough. Enough said.
As soon as he reverts to type the PPG drops drastically
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This isn't an attack on Val, he's rubbish but not to blame.for everything wrong with the club but I think we are about to enter a very dark period similar to 30 years ago if they don't get the next appointment right
Like anything in life, always do the right thing then worry about the consequences..
He has to go, that will at least show positive action..
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What I’d don’t get is if Val has issues with players and is apparently a strong man why does he continue to play them? Add in that the signings he brought in have been dreadful as well and you can see why the team isn’t playing for him.
The way you get rid of these players is get the best out of them, get promoted and then with the money replace them. It’s what we use to do very well. We kept the good ones and any bad apples we moved on. You can’t move players on when they are playing poorly and on good money.
The issue is I don’t want Val building anything at Albion as I frankly don’t thinks he’s capable at all.
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Like anything in life, always do the right thing then worry about the consequences..
He has to go, that will at least show positive action..
We have to do something. We cannot sit by and let club sink further and further.
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I’m not sure Vals style of football is one conducive to patience in the short term - it’s very much **** or bust. You can plan for four years but it’s not remotely easy on the eye and folk are not willing to accept that in the short term if the results aren’t as fans want them to be.
I think it’s easier to do with a more aesthetically pleasing style of football.
Irrespective of that, I cannot see how Val intends to set up this side and I’m not sure the players do either. That is a problem. I cannot see anything at the moment that is worth getting behind and shows signs of improvement in the medium to long term.
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I’m not sure Vals style of football is one conducive to patience in the short term - it’s very much **** or bust. You can plan for four years but it’s not remotely easy on the eye and folk are not willing to accept that in the short term if the results aren’t as fans want them to be.
I think it’s easier to do with a more aesthetically pleasing style of football.
Irrespective of that, I cannot see how Val intends to set up this side and I’m not sure the players do either. That is a problem. I cannot see anything at the moment that is worth getting behind and shows signs of improvement in the medium to long term.
Spot on, the football, even when we win is truly dreadful. Sure, everyone loves a goal and it covers up a lot of bad play but Saturday was Val in a nutshell, it was woeful and we won 3-0 so people think it’s the start of something. Tonight was even worse and we could have lost by 4 and not complained. The wins have become blips and losses and draws the normal.
There just isn’t any sign of improvement and after 6 months you’d like to think you could see a plan. All I see Is a manager who has lost the players, the fans and I have feeling, now the board.
I just have no idea where we go without new owners and a total new structure.
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Chris Wilder must be struggling to contain his laughter, looking at the state of Albion. Boro are on the march despite their defeat the other night.
Best manager in the league by a country mile. Missed out on him because absentee owner intervenes for first time in three years on nebulous grounds, then retreats back into his hidey hole.
We are the easiest team to prepare against in the division bar none. The ARROGANCE of him to set up 343 for every minute of every game, regardless of home or away, score line, opposition tactics or players as his disposal is criminal.
God knows who we bring in next as I have zero faith in the jokers who gave this man a 4yr contract to do any better next time, especially in the absence of a DoF.
Val is failing but the next man is being handed a disjointed mess of a squad assembled by 6 blokes - Pulis, Dowling, Moore, Bilic, Allardyce, Val. Throw in Pardew, Megson, Shan, Dowing’s predecessor Nick Hammond, this ‘Ken’ bloke, alongside ‘consultants’ like Ron Gourlay and Guiliano Terrano (remember him?), and you’ve got a catastrophic squad building and succession planning system.
Livermore, Phillips, Bartley have failed under most/all managers listed above. Honourable mentions for Kieran Gibbs and Hal Robson Kanu. These ‘leaders’ are serial losers, failures, relegation specialists; call them what you will. Bang average journeyman jobbers who weren’t cherry picked when Evans, Rondon, Rodriguez, Dawson, Pereira were.
The issues at the heart of this club are complex, are not easily solved and run deep. The infrastructure isn’t in place. The lack of expertise is tangible and apparent in so many, many decisions. There isn’t a quick fix and changing the manager can only do so much.
Val is obviously failing, he deserves to be under severe pressure but does changing him fix much? In the long term, no. We’ll sack that bloke in 7-8 months time, and the one after that.
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Albion 79 thanks for the post and info. Looking at where we are, your post makes sense to me. The fact that our better players last season bar Pereira were the lads on loan says something. If they like Bilic and end up taking the mick and now don't like Val because he's too strict doesn't that say something. If they don't like Val's methods as he is hard on them they were not going to like Wilder either...
I think Val will now go as his relationship with the fans is so strained but the players shouldn't be let off the hook so easily.
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Last night was bad, make no mistake and we have been poor on the ball for some time now. Ismael's style of football is not really for me, I prefer control which is something we dont really play with. Having said all of that, I would stick with him.
Whilst we look very poor in some aspects if the game, we are not totally inept: we are excellent defensively and decent at set pieces. It is clear that there are different type of players required to make Ismael's system works to its optimum, Dike coming in is the beginning of moving towards that. As we have all said, the squad requires an overhaul: could the squad of Livermore, Bartley, Furlong, Phillips et al get out of this league? Of course. Could it stay in the league above? I'd say no. We need to overhaul the playing squad and we have set down on that road and have picked a style to try and do it in. It isn't my chosen style, I'd have maybe picked a Russell Martin type manager, but Ismale is here nonetheless. Potentially going up with a team very good out of possession would make us better in the Premier League than we have been in recent times.
It's terrible at the moment, the atmosphere is toxic. We look like we could miss out on the play offs, I get all of that. However I think it gets to a point where we have to trust a manager for a longer period of time and we have to overhaul the squad where possible. Unless our underlying stats fell off a cliff and our defensive record became totally inept in the rest of the season, I'd stick with Ismael. Again, Ismael is not my style of manager and I too find his predictable subs and lack of system changes frustrating but we do have to stick with a plan at some point.
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He has to go due to attendencies alone. We have plenty of midweek games in Feb and I really think, If he stays, they will break records for being so low.
As a season ticket holder for many years, I have never considered not going, however if Val stays, those Monday night games in Feb are seriously going to test me and I actually think I might not bother. The club have to act. Now.
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We are getting worse. We look dreadful going forward. No shots on target last night. Dreadful.
This is not a 4 year plan. Lai coming over and signing Dike, to me, means he wants promotion this season, hopefully because he's got a buyer.
I can't see VI lasting much longer. Over the years we as fans can spot the type of performances that either get managers sacked straight away or they lead up to it. Last night was one of them.
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We are getting worse. We look dreadful going forward. No shots on target last night. Dreadful.
This is not a 4 year plan. Lai coming over and signing Dike, to me, means he wants promotion this season, hopefully because he's got a buyer.
I can't see VI lasting much longer. Over the years we as fans can spot the type of performances that either get managers sacked straight away or they lead up to it. Last night was one of them.
Yes - I think you are right. Managers rarely survive fans revolt. There are really only two types of Baggies fan at the moment. Half of us are angry the others just suffering in silence. The apathy is worse in some ways. If numbers for the next few home games are low the silence will be deafening.
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Bizarrely, I think one saving grace from last night was that we’re weren’t pooh in our usual way. It was a completely different poor to what we’ve seen most of this season. The instructions they were under were awful though.
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Val is a rabbit in the headlights now. It's best for all parties if it's brought to a swift conclusion.
Major worry is, this is a squad of players that have failed Bilic, Allardyce and now Val. What makes us think it'll be any different next time round. At some point we have to take the hit and turn the entire squad over for something better.
Val isn't the man to do this but at some stage it's going to get pretty ugly regardless of who is in charge.
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I do get those who say we may need to just commit and see where it goes over a longer period, it as Liam said (either here or in another thread) his football is s*** or bust and requires instant results else the fans turn. I’ve never in my adult life seen the fans turn like they have on Ismael and I don’t think you can hold out for the long term with such open revolt.
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At this rate we are heading back to the dark days in the 80's. Soon Paul Williams will look like Ronaldo when we compare squads.
Gould's Barmy Army anyone???
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And in his defence - some of those players need to take a look at themselves. The attitudes and performances of some of them go behind the manager. Plenty of them tonight were struggling with basic 5 yard passes. That’s not the responsibility or blame of the manager.
The arm waving, failing to track back as they bare down on our goal. That’s on these swines.
It is Liam, but it is the result of his poor coaching and tactics. No one cares anymore. The players still get their wages, win, lose or draw. If you want rid of a manager - STOP PLAYING for him.
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If VI was given the job based on his discipline, and to weedle out the 'rot' among the players, why are they all still here?? And why is he picking them. If they really are bad apples (And I imagine there are a few inflated ego's) why not go down the youth route, and shame the senior pro's? This club is about to implode. We need promotion, solely to get rid of Lai, and for the money. Forget staying up, that wouldn't happen. Just get the money, a decent manager, and start again. Unfortunately those at the top have proved they are incapable of running a football club. Things are going to get worse before they get better.
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The question is who would be interested in the job and do a good job of rebuilding the squad?
Highly doubt many would want it.
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Haven't been in the Val out camp based on the fact I don't believe in the constant chopping and changing of manager does any good other than a very short bounce but after that something has to change. There is clearly something poisonous around the club at the moment with a mix of managers inflexibility and a core of players who have downed tools and are approaching double figures I guess in the number of managers they've seen come and go proving highly toxic! Both need sorting sharpish !
On the SJ front many stories doing the rounds but IF VItold Johnstone he was on the bench and that's what sparked it then it is Johnstone at fault not VI you only have to look on here to see how many would have kept Button in.
Finally those singing the Bilic song get real! Yes he had the dirty done on him but many on here and no doubt many of those singing it wanted him gone to. He may have loved the club but do you seriously think he's going to come back a d work for those that crapped on him before !
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Forget all other problems. Manager needs to go first. Even though there have been many toothless performances. I was happy to give it time. Give him a chance. But that was a pathetic performance on every level. Hoofing with no idea.
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It is Liam, but it is the result of his poor coaching and tactics. No one cares anymore. The players still get their wages, win, lose or draw. If you want rid of a manager - STOP PLAYING for him.
I think that is what they did last night. He has sacked off Snodgrass, Zohore, Ajayi. Hugill [or is he injured?] and yesterday he fell out with Sam [who may have thrown his teddies out to be fair]. He has probably displeased others as well. There are only so many you can upset. It is clear that the team are not playing for him.
Last night was it for me, he has to go. What I would not want to see are more VI type players arriving here, only for him to catch the next bus out.
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Forget all other problems. Manager needs to go first. Even though there have been many toothless performances. I was happy to give it time. Give him a chance. But that was a pathetic performance on every level. Hoofing with no idea.
If we wait six weeks that chap at Watford will be available..... ;D
[Its a joke Mods, I am not really suggesting a replacement]
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To think that he should have been sacked WEEKS earlier, we may then have had Roy in charge, (or someone with a bit of footballing nouse).
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I think that is what they did last night. He has sacked off Snodgrass, Zohore, Ajayi. Hugill [or is he injured?] and yesterday he fell out with Sam [who may have thrown his teddies out to be fair]. He has probably displeased others as well. There are only so many you can upset. It is clear that the team are not playing for him.
Last night was it for me, he has to go. What I would not want to see are more VI type players arriving here, only for him to catch the next bus out.
Apart from possibly Snodgrass, not of the others deserve to be playing.
There’s a lot wrong at the moment, but there’s plenty being laid at VI’s feet today that’s just nonsense.
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I actually think Ismael is almost trying too hard.
As per what i said previous about him being told to not curb to the players, he almost has gone to the extreme which i understand but maybe it has gone too far.
By all accounts he is a really good bloke who has really tried to understand the club, he has made efforts to meet all the departments, wants to know about the history, etc, etc and not many managers have shown the commitment he has but ultimately results will decide his future.
The problem is any overhaul will take time, he will have to pick some of the egos purely on numbers, i like the idea of bringing the kids in but they have to be at a certain level and i think there are only 2 or 3 who are even close and they could easily have their futures ruined, imagine a bunch of kids playing in an atmosphere like last night, the fans would be a bit more tolerable but eventually the tide would still turn.
Ismael is shuffling the same pack, there isnt a lot of quality, we have workmanlike players but his tactics are not helping, it doesnt seem right that these players will see off another manager, if he did go i think it would be an old school short term manager and we would be back on the roundabout.
Whether we like to admit it or not, the albion fanbase has changed, we were trying to play football under Moore, 4th in the league and yet a number of fans wanted him gone, and i thought it was ironic last night the fans chanting for Bilic, he got us promoted first time and yet there were fans who wanted him gone even before we started in the premier league.
Because the atmosphere has turned so toxic if ismael does go, the new manager would have some leeway purely because they arent ismael, that said whoever it is i wouldnt buy somewhere in the area because you dont get long at the albion.
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The reason the players don’t like him is they don’t respect what he has done in the game. Bring in a manager who’s got promotion with their methods and the team will change.
With Val they look at at guy who had a lucky season at Barnsley playing woeful football.
Imagine in your job if a new manager was brought in with no real experience of where the company wants to be and decides he knows better than everyone there who have won promotion before. Sure you’d give it a go as you’re a professional but when it starts to fall apart and anyone who questions it gets bombed out what you going to do? Leave or wait until someone makes the right decision. You sure as hell ain’t going to put 100% in.
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Like Bilic? They liked him and yet still took the mick during lockdown when he trusted them, we never recovered and he got the sack, they stayed.
The players are the main issue, they should not have the power to decide who they like or respect, there are a number who think they run the club, they need to be gone but to do that you have to have somebody who want them.
Sadly its easier and cheaper to get rid of one person than it is 6 or 7 players, he will
Be the fourth manager they will of seen off, we have had novices (moore), very experienced (allardyce) charismatic and respected (slav), and now a modern type with all stats, etc, the players are the common denominator.
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I actually think Ismael is almost trying too hard.
As per what i said previous about him being told to not curb to the players, he almost has gone to the extreme which i understand but maybe it has gone too far.
By all accounts he is a really good bloke who has really tried to understand the club, he has made efforts to meet all the departments, wants to know about the history, etc, etc and not many managers have shown the commitment he has but ultimately results will decide his future.
The problem is any overhaul will take time, he will have to pick some of the egos purely on numbers, i like the idea of bringing the kids in but they have to be at a certain level and i think there are only 2 or 3 who are even close and they could easily have their futures ruined, imagine a bunch of kids playing in an atmosphere like last night, the fans would be a bit more tolerable but eventually the tide would still turn.
Ismael is shuffling the same pack, there isnt a lot of quality, we have workmanlike players but his tactics are not helping, it doesnt seem right that these players will see off another manager, if he did go i think it would be an old school short term manager and we would be back on the roundabout.
Whether we like to admit it or not, the albion fanbase has changed, we were trying to play football under Moore, 4th in the league and yet a number of fans wanted him gone, and i thought it was ironic last night the fans chanting for Bilic, he got us promoted first time and yet there were fans who wanted him gone even before we started in the premier league.
Because the atmosphere has turned so toxic if ismael does go, the new manager would have some leeway purely because they arent ismael, that said whoever it is i wouldnt buy somewhere in the area because you dont get long at the albion.
I simply cannot buy into this 'overhaul' theory on the current evidence available. Compared to where we were 2 to 3 years ago we are going backwards quickly. Lai pulled the Wilder deal at the last moment in favour of VI and with respect to Lai I don't really think he understands the game, certainly not to a point where he can conjure up a vision of a long term plan and a style of play at a moments notice.
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The reason the players don’t like him is they don’t respect what he has done in the game. Bring in a manager who’s got promotion with their methods and the team will change.
With Val they look at at guy who had a lucky season at Barnsley playing woeful football.
Imagine in your job if a new manager was brought in with no real experience of where the company wants to be and decides he knows better than everyone there who have won promotion before. Sure you’d give it a go as you’re a professional but when it starts to fall apart and anyone who questions it gets bombed out what you going to do? Leave or wait until someone makes the right decision. You sure as hell ain’t going to put 100% in.
Absolute nonsense. Some may not respect / like him now, I’ve no idea. It will be nothing to do with his prior experiences though. He did well at Barnsley and Lask and played for Bayern Munich.
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The overhaul is to have a squad that can go up and stay up, thats the only way Lai sells the club for anything near what he wants.
This group of players failed miserably in their last attempt in the premier league, a couple may make it with another chance but the majority wont, this squad is very similar to last seasons squad, if they go up the same will happen again.
Last time in the premier league we sacked the bloke who got us there, the time before that we had three managers in one season, its easy to say, go up, get the money and worry then, the likelohood whoever got us up would get sacked during the season anyway, we come back down and back to square one.
Lai wants to sell, he knows the only way to do that is stability, build a team that can go up and stay up, these players arent good enough for that as history shows us so needs overhauling, whether Ismael is the bloke to do it is another thing completely.
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Speaking to my source last night and after the game all the big guys were still at the stadium way after the game.... Ken, Gourlay, Miles. Apparently very very rare they are all there late.
Now he isn't saying the Boss is getting sacked immediately, but there were defo deep discussions going on late into the night yesterday. So something may be happening.
According to him, the heirachcy are aware that he has lost the fans big time, and even the players in training are losing interest.
As a side note also, VI offered Johnstone a final chance yesterday to patch things up and asked that Johnstone apologise to the rest of the Team for declining to play. Johnstone declined - therefore straining relations even more.
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Thanks bakeyaface, i wonder if Johnstones head has been turned and he is trying to force a move now rather than wait til the summer.
I got told last week he wouldnt be playing after his suspension but he couldnt tell me why, If he has refused to play or be sub, maybe ismael is waiting to see if he does go hence saying he wont be involved against Millwall.
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Like Bilic? They liked him and yet still took the mick during lockdown when he trusted them, we never recovered and he got the sack, they stayed.
The players are the main issue, they should not have the power to decide who they like or respect, there are a number who think they run the club, they need to be gone but to do that you have to have somebody who want them.
Sadly its easier and cheaper to get rid of one person than it is 6 or 7 players, he will
Be the fourth manager they will of seen off, we have had novices (moore), very experienced (allardyce) charismatic and respected (slav), and now a modern type with all stats, etc, the players are the common denominator.
Bilic was his own worst enemy. All vibes and no substance, created a decent atmosphere around one genuine PL quality player and lived off the back of it for 18 months. He neglected to instil any discipline or even try to get a team together than could run for 90 minutes. The post lockdown return to football was embarrassing, I've seen parks teams with better fitness and it almost cost us. It's telling that the best we've looked in the past three seasons was once Allardyce got us fit and signed an entirely new midfield and a striker.
Val is other end of the spectrum. All principles, my way or the highway however it seems this squad of players have decided Val's way can go balls. Maybe in three or four years time when we're further into the overhaul that needs to happen he could have been the right guy. It's obvious to most that here and now isn't the right time or place for him.
We've not had a manager since Hodgson that was good enough to command the respect of the players and also be switched on enough in terms of actual coaching to succeed. Di Matteo was close, Big Dave did a great job keeping things together but we're now reaping the crop from five years of gutless, absent, apathetic management of the club from the very top.
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The overhaul is to have a squad that can go up and stay up, thats the only way Lai sells the club for anything near what he wants.
This group of players failed miserably in their last attempt in the premier league, a couple may make it with another chance but the majority wont, this squad is very similar to last seasons squad, if they go up the same will happen again.
Last time in the premier league we sacked the bloke who got us there, the time before that we had three managers in one season, its easy to say, go up, get the money and worry then, the likelohood whoever got us up would get sacked during the season anyway, we come back down and back to square one.
Lai wants to sell, he knows the only way to do that is stability, build a team that can go up and stay up, these players arent good enough for that as history shows us so needs overhauling, whether Ismael is the bloke to do it is another thing completely.
Any overhaul will involve money, Lai is not going put any in so how are we going to achieve this overhaul?
That's not directed at you 79, that is a general question to the forum.
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They ARE trying, they just hate his methods, his attitude and his approach.
You've clearly never worked for a poor manager who threatens you or "manages you out" if you question methods or results.
They are terrified of speaking out so they try and follow his instructions even though they are not working.
I'm not sure what your position is within the club which provides you such in-depth understanding of what's going on behind closed doors, or in turn how you know what my history is. However suffice is to say I've been on both the receiving end of poor management and also been in the position where I had to manage out rotten apples for the company I worked for. People who questioned anything and had all the answers though have never been in a position where the buck drops with them. It's easy to be a worker for an organisation and have all the wonderful ideas about philosophy and approach but when it doesn't go right it's the man in charge who takes the chop not the worker.
Val is in charge, he is the manager and if he wants the players to adapt because he doesn't feel they hve the quality (which I don't think they do either) to play a certain way then you have to be professional and follow the process. I don't know (and I suspect neither do you) how Val speaks one to one with the players, but for me everything which Baggie79 posted in an early brilliant insightful post sings true to how I feel about this group of players. I've never felt so disinterested or out of touch with the group we have now, I genuinely believe there are some really rotten attitudes and those players need to go. I remember an interview recently with Roy Keane about the Villa players he was managing at the time, they were all weeded out and they had to suffer for a few years before getting it right. Fortunately for Villa they had Jack Grealish in the way we had Pereira, sadly the club got rid of our prize asset for less than his worth before Val even got hold of this squad.
I have no real desire for Val to be the manager of this club, I don't see him as any form of messiah far from it, the jury is completely out as he's very new to the scene. However I take umbrage with the bizarre and noisy section of our fan-base who genuinely believe we have a group of players with the quality to challenge the top two spots in this division. I was comfortable with playoffs being a good result this season and I think we'll achieve that.
All the above having been said, we have far more quality than Preston, at home with no shots on target and what sounds like a disastrous performance, there's no excuse for that and the criticism in that instance is wholly justified.
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I simply cannot buy into this 'overhaul' theory on the current evidence available. Compared to where we were 2 to 3 years ago we are going backwards quickly. Lai pulled the Wilder deal at the last moment in favour of VI and with respect to Lai I don't really think he understands the game, certainly not to a point where he can conjure up a vision of a long term plan and a style of play at a moments notice.
That was a decision made on a personal basis and nothing to do with any football ability /qualifications or achievements in the game . He didn’t in other words pull the plug on Wilder because he preferred VI
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Speaking to my source last night and after the game all the big guys were still at the stadium way after the game.... Ken, Gourlay, Miles. Apparently very very rare they are all there late.
Now he isn't saying the Boss is getting sacked immediately, but there were defo deep discussions going on late into the night yesterday. So something may be happening.
According to him, the heirachcy are aware that he has lost the fans big time, and even the players in training are losing interest.
As a side note also, VI offered Johnstone a final chance yesterday to patch things up and asked that Johnstone apologise to the rest of the Team for declining to play. Johnstone declined - therefore straining relations even more.
Going by that and what Albion79 has said we have some serious issues on the players front and sacking a manager (again) isn’t going to solve things and we just have players trying to adapt to a new style again and probably another nee manager by the June/July. We’ll be In a Shan/Moore/Bilic scenario only this time the foundations (the squad) are far weaker.
I’d be willing to give VI longer but he has to have the riot act read to him and we really do need to see some flexibility from him ie 2 centre backs and 2 forwards with more in the middle of the pitch. Every time we’ve got the ball down we’ve been better so what the hell was last night about. Long balls up to that front 3 simply won’t work.
If VI doesn’t agree that tactics have to be tweaked then he can go. No reason why they can’t discuss this. My way or the highway doesn’t work in football, not with these wages and transfer windows and egos.
It’s adapt or go time. Sadly we’ve not seen any signs of the former.
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Any overhaul will involve money, Lai is not going put any in so how are we going to achieve this overhaul?
That's not directed at you 79, that is a general question to the forum.
Nothing happens. We don't achieve it. It's blindingly obvious it needs to happen, but I'm not sure it's that well known in China. He doesn't care.
He'll never make his money back, we just sit and do nothing season after season. The same 90 minutes on repeat, which is what we've had for the majority of this season.
The only silver lining in all this is that at least he's put **** all in, so he can't take anything out.
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Most WBA fans are intelligent and patient. We know there are certain players who lack quality.
There are certain factors recently that have hindered us massively:
1) loss of Pereira for a measly £17m.
2) O'Shea long term injury.
3) awful loan signing of Hugill.
4) a spate of sending offs and suspensions recently.
5) Dike injury immediately after signing.
However, this disastrous idea of retaining a 3-5-2 formation with 2 slow and unskilled Central midfielders and wing backs with poor final delivery is totally and utterly flawed.
The fact that he has in some cases better options on sidelines (Gardner Hickman) means that the Manager is incompetent.
It's indefensible that he's not picking the best 11 or making best use of resources.
Bobby Gould was terrible but in those days it was a 14 man squad, not 25 and tactical discussions and debating selections just didn't exist back then.
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I'm not sure what your position is within the club which provides you such in-depth understanding of what's going on behind closed doors, or in turn how you know what my history is. However suffice is to say I've been on both the receiving end of poor management and also been in the position where I had to manage out rotten apples for the company I worked for. People who questioned anything and had all the answers though have never been in a position where the buck drops with them. It's easy to be a worker for an organisation and have all the wonderful ideas about philosophy and approach but when it doesn't go right it's the man in charge who takes the chop not the worker.
Val is in charge, he is the manager and if he wants the players to adapt because he doesn't feel they hve the quality (which I don't think they do either) to play a certain way then you have to be professional and follow the process. I don't know (and I suspect neither do you) how Val speaks one to one with the players, but for me everything which Baggie79 posted in an early brilliant insightful post sings true to how I feel about this group of players. I've never felt so disinterested or out of touch with the group we have now, I genuinely believe there are some really rotten attitudes and those players need to go. I remember an interview recently with Roy Keane about the Villa players he was managing at the time, they were all weeded out and they had to suffer for a few years before getting it right. Fortunately for Villa they had Jack Grealish in the way we had Pereira, sadly the club got rid of our prize asset for less than his worth before Val even got hold of this squad.
I have no real desire for Val to be the manager of this club, I don't see him as any form of messiah far from it, the jury is completely out as he's very new to the scene. However I take umbrage with the bizarre and noisy section of our fan-base who genuinely believe we have a group of players with the quality to challenge the top two spots in this division. I was comfortable with playoffs being a good result this season and I think we'll achieve that.
All the above having been said, we have far more quality than Preston, at home with no shots on target and what sounds like a disastrous performance, there's no excuse for that and the criticism in that instance is wholly justified.
So I can't comment on the manager player relationship because I don't have a position within the club? Yet you go on to post with some certainty about the attitude of the players. What's your position within the club?
Because Baggie 79's post agrees with you, you consider it insightful, which is fair enough, but I NEVER claimed to be ITK, I just relayed information I had been given from someone who is. Exactly the same as Bazggie79 did. You just agree with one and not the other.
I'm no fan of these players, they need an overhaul based on their abilities, but the way they are being asked to play is down to the coach and it is failing. Snodgrass questioned tactics and was bombed, which sent a "my way or the highway" message to the rest. In any industry this is a dated and unproductive philosophy as is "managing out rotten apples". The best way to get results from a group is through communication and collaboration but this is not allowed, from what I have been told.
We are not talking about dissenting players, we are talking about players raising genuine concerns about the system and their roles within it and to not listen is simply bad management.
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I am not sure what the rules are regarding loans, etc but if i was Ismael i would look to get creative and bring fresh bloody and enthusiasm into the squad, he said he didnt want to have a late transfer window spree but i think he doesnt have much choice.
It sounds very football manager but we have to get creative with our transfer, firstly i would be letting everyone know Ajayi is available for transfer, he clearly isnt in the plans, we have a number of centre halfs especially with O’Shea coming back.
We should get some sort of fee for him, plus save wage, offer Snodgrass a pay off, even if its paying off 90% or 3/4 of his contract so he can leave now, we would save £££ of his contract and as he isnt going to he playing, any saving is better than none.
Loan Zohore out, we may have to pay the majority of his wages but even if we get a club paying £5-7k a week, its still a help because similar to Snodgrass, he isnt going to play, we are paying them to do nothing right now so anything we can get back helps.
Cut Hugills loan, there may be a penalty fee but i bet its still cheaper than another half a season wages for another player who wont be playing, similar to Moloumby, he has been here half a season and not become a regular in a very poor midfield, cut our losses and send him back.
We will have to take the losses but we will also free some money up on players who will not be playing anyway, i think its s**t or bust for Val now, i would do the above, and used the freed up wages and try and get three good young premier league players from the better teams on loan, if they are with a man city, liverpool, etc first and foremost you know they can play football, they may not make a difference for us but i think we have to try and freshen things up and take a chance, even if one of those loans works out, its still an improvement on 5 playees who contribute nothing being at the club.
I would hope the club and val have an ongoing list and scouts following the top clubs ready for loan moves.
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Have it on decent authority he has been sacked, awaiting definitive clarification from within. Hold tight..... heard it here first .....
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As Dave said "we're now reaping the crop from five years of gutless, absent, apathetic management of the club from the very top."
The fans anger/ apathy (delete as appropriate) is really a result of the ownership and it's currently being directed at VI. It will also spread to the players soon I feel. I wonder why the fans are not more vocal against Lai and the board as they're the really problem. We're moving towards Venkys territory I feel - uninterested owner(s) who will never make their money back so hold on too long and the whole place turns toxic before they realise it's just best to cut and run.
VI is finished with the fans but whoever comes in will have the same awful board, poor transfer/ contract dealings, poisonous playing squad atmosphere and a fanbase who is either on the verge of deserting the club or kicking up a storm.
Depressing times to be an Albion fan really
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We are never going to have an overhaul of the squad whilst we keep dishing out new contracts to players who are way past their best. Bartley, Phillips and Livermore prime examples this season.
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As Dave said The fans anger/ apathy (delete as appropriate) is really a result of the ownership and it's currently being directed at VI.
Mines at Val because he’s clueless, stubborn and one of the worst managers I’ve ever seen, regardless of club ownership. Of course they are both big issues, but Val is useless and needs replacing as soon as possible.
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Mines at Val because he’s clueless, stubborn and one of the worst managers I’ve ever seen, regardless of club ownership. Of course they are both big issues, but Val is useless and needs replacing as soon as possible.
Spot on. I'm angry with VI because he's an awful man manager, shallow tactician and stubborn as a mule. I'm also equally angry with the board for other reasons.
I don't conflate my 2 views onto Val.
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Have it on decent authority he has been sacked, awaiting definitive clarification from within. Hold tight..... heard it here first .....
I think everything I’ve read from you has been right, apart from the Wilder appointment (but I appreciate that probably was very close)
If true I think VI will go on to do very well somewhere
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I think everything I’ve read from you has been right, apart from the Wilder appointment (but I appreciate that probably was very close)
If true I think VI will go on to do very well somewhere
You know what i think you may be right but he will never do well here.
He needs to go back to his 'underdog' teams again.
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Have it on decent authority he has been sacked, awaiting definitive clarification from within. Hold tight..... heard it here first .....
Thanks Bakeyface for the updates. Appreciate it.
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I think we have that triple threat problem going on:
Poor standard of squad
Inept Manager
Careless owner
Combined, long term, it's really not good
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I think everything I’ve read from you has been right, apart from the Wilder appointment (but I appreciate that probably was very close)
If true I think VI will go on to do very well somewhere
In Sainsburys perhaps?
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I think everything I’ve read from you has been right, apart from the Wilder appointment (but I appreciate that probably was very close)
If true I think VI will go on to do very well somewhere
Yes i admit the Wilder thing went wrong, but at the time i wrote about it ...Wilder was as good as done. It was Lai and some senior members that made that go south, in the end they did a U-Turn. A costly one
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Have it on decent authority he has been sacked, awaiting definitive clarification from within. Hold tight..... heard it here first .....
Should this happen I think it's for the best we have been in freefall for months now struggling to score goals.
VI biggest fault was his stubbornness to alter tactics when the situation was crying out for change.
Thanks for the updates Bakeyaface.
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Yes i admit the Wilder thing went wrong, but at the time i wrote about it ...Wilder was as good as done. It was Lai and some senior members that made that go south, in the end they did a U-Turn. A costly one
Not your fault mate. What you said was true at the time.
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meeting due now, expected to announce Val sacking shortly. Johnstone debacle final nail.
Also the Board concerned the football is awful and attendances dropping.
Expect something to be announced soon....
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I think we have that triple threat problem going on:
Poor standard of squad
Inept Manager
Careless owner
Combined, long term, it's really not good
Equalling a very frustrated and toxic fan base.
I said it at the time not so much in these words but Dowling was correct on who to bring in...club took a gamble which i actually do appreciate as I was willing to get behind him and it hasn't worked. The club need to be very decisive now. Potentially no manager and a transfer deadline where we need fresh blood.
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Our PPG over last 12 games is 1.16.
That's just about avoiding relegation. What a disaster.
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Should this happen I think it's for the best we have been in freefall for months now struggling to score goals.
VI biggest fault was his stubbornness to alter tactics when the situation was crying out for change.
Thanks for the updates Bakeyaface.
This is what has cost him. Ultimately everything else would have been ok but not changing things when it was needed is what has cost him his job if indeed he's to go.
I've realised that in life I get quite emotionally attached to things including West Brom Managers and I always have this really really strong yearn for them to succeed and I give them such big chances, particularly Moore, Bilic and Val and going further back Mowbray and Di Matteo. I wish I could stop being like that because it makes it hurt when things don't work.
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As a side note..... I know someone at the club who deals with the Players and Management a lot. Organises taxis, hotels, PA related things etc.....
Doesn't say much as they are older, bit more respectful of spreading things. But sometimes things are said.
Has worked there since the Megson days, and says Val isn't a very nice guy. Demands a lot, is a little rude and clearly rubs a lot of people up the wrong way. Has a certain method which is fine to have your own style....but causes friction.
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oooh we wait with baited breath.
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meeting due now, expected to announce Val sacking shortly. Johnstone debacle final nail.
Also the Board concerned the football is awful and attendances dropping.
Expect something to be announced soon....
Thats me doing no work today, splitting between here and Twitter with the F5 button!! ;D ;D
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As a side note..... I know someone at the club who deals with the Players and Management a lot. Organises taxis, hotels, PA related things etc.....
Doesn't say much as they are older, bit more respectful of spreading things. But sometimes things are said.
Has worked there since the Megson days, and says Val isn't a very nice guy. Demands a lot, is a little rude and clearly rubs a lot of people up the wrong way. Has a certain method which is fine to have your own style....but causes friction.
As a fan we see the public face and tbh I haven't connected with VI's public persona at all. Seems stubborn, arrogant and superior to the fans which is not a good look at Albion. I compare him to those I really 'bought into' like Big Dave, Bilic, Mowbray and Roy - they all had humility and I'm sure the players pick up on this stuff too.
It didn't work out, the owner should stay out of football decisions if it's true he chose VI over Wilder (who in their right mind!). We need to move on quickly so we can sign a striker and midfielder(s) to get the season back on track!!
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Regarding Johnstone......
Apparently the cause of the fall out was because he was told Button would retain his place before the game. Johnstone was especially annoyed as it was against his hometown club.
Johnstone made reference to the fact some players walk straight back in to the team (i'm guessing the likes of Mowatt etc...) so why shouldn't he, being an England international. Val told him that was his final decisions, and the rest is history.
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The comparison between Val and Big Dave isn't quite accurate in some ways but not in others. Some fans wanted Dave gone, not a massive amount, but nothing like the amount that want Val gone.
The issue a lot had with Big Dave was the insistance of playing it out from the back with players who clearly couldn't do it and it kept costing us goal after goal. I suppose it's similar to Val's approach of smashing long balls up to the front 3 (I say 3, it's only ever 1 at a time because they're spread so thin). It's frustrasting watching the team do the same thing over and over when it clearly hurts us.
It doesn't feel that the team was in as bad a state as it is now when we sacked Big Dave.
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As a side note..... I know someone at the club who deals with the Players and Management a lot. Organises taxis, hotels, PA related things etc.....
Doesn't say much as they are older, bit more respectful of spreading things. But sometimes things are said.
Has worked there since the Megson days, and says Val isn't a very nice guy. Demands a lot, is a little rude and clearly rubs a lot of people up the wrong way. Has a certain method which is fine to have your own style....but causes friction.
That's exactly what I was told.
Hopefully the rotten apple has managed himself out.
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Val does come across as a plum in all fairness outside of his poor management. Good riddance.
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He may go today but ...
1. regardless of his talent or lack of it this will be a very bad message to any manager considering taking up the post.
2.It's going to be costing us anywhere up to 3 years of his salary. Can we afford that?
3, We've just shelled out £7m on his type of player when a lot of teams are turning against the traditional CF with false nines etc - any new manager has to work this guy into their plans
We're not going up with this manager and I don't think we will be going down. It may be better to give him a season as a signal to prospective candidates that we will give them a fair crack of the whip. I don't know where the stories about his man-management style are coming from: maybe first hand, maybe Chinese (sic) whispers.
To be clear I did post before here that the clips of his football at Barnsley displayed Neolithic tendencies but I've tried to back him.
As for Wilder, I believe that Mr Guochuan is a mate of the Sheffield utd owner and was probably not going to take on a manager who constantly moaned about not getting enough money to buy players. Wilder doesn't know what it's like for managers here.
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Val is currently explaining to Ken what XG means ;D
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Val is currently explaining to Ken what XG means ;D
Sweet F all.
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Thats me doing no work today, splitting between here and Twitter with the F5 button!! ;D ;D
I am currently off with Covid so I have nothing better to do than be on here!
I wonder if this is a crisis meeting or a "pack your bags" meeting...
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The players, in this particular instance anyway, have all the power.
There can only be one outcome, as we can't move on all the players that are dissenting of Val .
So rightly or wrongly, the only logical outcome, for the benefit of the club in the short term, is that we have to part company with Val imo.
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I feel for Dike...injured...and now his number 1 backer has gone. I hope he isn't disillusioned already
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I feel for Dike...injured...and now his number 1 backer has gone. I hope he isn't disillusioned already
I get nervous every time you post :D
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I feel for Dike...injured...and now his number 1 backer has gone. I hope he isn't disillusioned already
He will be fine. Looks a decent striker. Only under Val for 4/5 months.
His whole future is ahead of him
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He may go today but ...
1. regardless of his talent or lack of it this will be a very bad message to any manager considering taking up the post.
2.It's going to be costing us anywhere up to 3 years of his salary. Can we afford that?
3, We've just shelled out £7m on his type of player when a lot of teams are turning against the traditional CF with false nines etc - any new manager has to work this guy into their plans
We're not going up with this manager and I don't think we will be going down. It may be better to give him a season as a signal to prospective candidates that we will give them a fair crack of the whip. I don't know where the stories about his style are coming from: maybe first hand, maybe Chinese (sic) whispers.
To be clear I did post before here that the clips of his football at Barnsley displayed Neolithic tendencies but I've tried to back him.
As for Wilder, I believe that Mr Guochuan is a mate of the Sheffield utd owner and was probably not going to take on a manager who constantly moaned about not getting enough money to buy players. Wilder doesn't know what it's like for managers here.
1. We are still a very good proposition for a manager. The fact that we have just spent £7m, in, itself, is the stuff of dreams for most teams at our level.
2. If it's the right decision, we have to afford it. We can't persevere with the wrong coach just because he has us over a financial barrel
3. False 9's are the luxury of the rich, CF's are still the most precious commodity. If Kane came up for sale, there would be no shortage of suitors. I actually think Dike will flourish in a 433, as will the rest of our forwards
From what I hear, although I'll stress again I am not ITK, it's purely anecdotal, the atmosphere has not been pleasant, due to his dictatorial and oppressive management style, so I fully expect there will be huge sigh of relief in many quarters, this morning and that will, hopefully, show in the performance on Saturday.
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I get nervous every time you post :D
Lol, one of my messages appeared copy and pasted on Twitter earlier. No idea who it was from here.
I've not heard anything for a little bit but i guess the bigwigs are in talks, probably organising the media stuff and official website stuff. But he is as good as gone as far as I'm aware.
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I feel for Dike...injured...and now his number 1 backer has gone. I hope he isn't disillusioned already
Far worse to play for a team that is disinterested for want of a better word and in front of a set of militant fans wanting blood, he must wonder what the hell he has signed up to.
Hopefully by the time he is back things will be better.
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Lol, one of my messages appeared copy and pasted on Twitter earlier. No idea who it was from here.
I've not heard anything for a little bit but i guess the bigwigs are in talks, probably organising the media stuff and official website stuff. But he is as good as gone as far as I'm aware.
I have noticed that your posts have taken traction on social media.
The board (ours) has seen a flurry of activity :D
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Lol, one of my messages appeared copy and pasted on Twitter earlier. No idea who it was from here.
I've not heard anything for a little bit but i guess the bigwigs are in talks, probably organising the media stuff and official website stuff. But he is as good as gone as far as I'm aware.
Imagine if the club was well ran and we’d already sounded out his replacement and there just sorting out the finer details. I can live in hope.
The weight lifted when he is gone will be huge.
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Announcements like this tend to be done on the hour.
Get those refreshing fingers at the ready.
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Imagine if the club was well ran and we’d already sounded out his replacement and there just sorting out the finer details. I can live in hope.
The weight lifted when he is gone will be huge.
It does feel that way. His tenure has ended up as just a dark cloud over the club.
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Announcements like this tend to be done on the hour.
Get those refreshing fingers at the ready.
True but they mix it up sometimes to keep us on our toes ;D
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I have noticed that your posts have taken traction on social media.
The board (ours) has seen a flurry of activity :D
Don't know why, I know 100% he has spread fake news in the past. I would take with a pinch of salt.
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Announcements like this tend to be done on the hour.
Get those refreshing fingers at the ready.
Knowing the incompetency of this football club the announcement will appear on the West Brom Building Society rather than our website ;D
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Knowing the incompetency of this football club the announcement will appear on the West Brom Building Society rather than our website ;D
Knowing the incompetency of this club they will probably announce they have extended his deal with a further 12 month option in his favour! ;)
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Lol, one of my messages appeared copy and pasted on Twitter earlier. No idea who it was from here.
I've not heard anything for a little bit but i guess the bigwigs are in talks, probably organising the media stuff and official website stuff. But he is as good as gone as far as I'm aware.
I've just given this forum a plug on it ;D
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Feel free to look back over my messages, the Wilder one aside (which was correct at the time) nothing I have said has been ridiculously off the mark.
Sorry if you are a tad salty about that.
One love.
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Knowing the incompetency of this football club the announcement will appear on the West Brom Building Society rather than our website ;D
With a picture of Gouchan in his tracksuit under the header "If you need a job doing....." :D
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Feel free to look back over my messages, the Wilder one aside (which was correct at the time) nothing I have said has been ridiculously off the mark.
Sorry if you are a tad salty about that.
One love.
Ignore the moaners. You are valued here.
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Assuming Val does go, would it not be easier to get the players to do the interviews for the new manager?!
They can ask the tough questions like when you trust us and we let you down will you be prepared to take the flak and get the sack? Will you promise not to make us try new things or else we will sulk (at this moment point at the headshots of Moore, Shan, Bilic, Allardyce and Ismael to make their point)
Take poor little sammy j in goal for example, yes he cost us a goal against Derby and then the next game got sent off after the game for a completely pointless incident meaning he was unavailable for three games and we had our biggest win in ages in that time but of course he should come straight into the team.
Little robert snodders in midfield, he has been with us a year and been injured for most of it, made about 6 starts, contributed nothing as of yet but of course he should feel he should challenge the manager.
Big jordan hugoal upfront, poor chap, been involved in over 20 games, scored one goal, missed more chances than i have hot dinners (and trust me my belly shows i have had a lot) but of course he is well within his rights to moan its not fair and he should be playing more.
The list could go on, they are a bunch of spoilt little princesses, Ismael in isolation if he goes is probably right, the fact most of these players have seen off at least 3, in some cases 5 managers in the last few years.
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Assuming Val does go, would it not be easier to get the players to do the interviews for the new manager?!
They can ask the tough questions like when you trust us and we let you down will you be prepared to take the flak and get the sack? Will you promise not to make us try new things or else we will sulk (at this moment point at the headshots of Moore, Shan, Bilic, Allardyce and Ismael to make their point)
Take poor little sammy j in goal for example, yes he cost us a goal against Derby and then the next game got sent off after the game for a completely pointless incident meaning he was unavailable for three games and we had our biggest win in ages in that time but of course he should come straight into the team.
Little robert snodders in midfield, he has been with us a year and been injured for most of it, made about 6 starts, contributed nothing as of yet but of course he should feel he should challenge the manager.
Big jordan hugoal upfront, poor chap, been involved in over 20 games, scored one goal, missed more chances than i have hot dinners (and trust me my belly shows i have had a lot) but of course he is well within his rights to moan its not fair and he should be playing more.
The list could go on, they are a bunch of spoilt little princesses, Ismael in isolation if he goes is probably right, the fact most of these players have seen off at least 3, in some cases 5 managers in the last few years.
Spot on, but as been said previously easier to remove a manager than half the team who we would struggle to move on.
This is a long project the club is a mess from top to bottom but VI is part of the problem.
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Lol, one of my messages appeared copy and pasted on Twitter earlier. No idea who it was from here.
I've not heard anything for a little bit but i guess the bigwigs are in talks, probably organising the media stuff and official website stuff. But he is as good as gone as far as I'm aware.
I'd say it's more the contract stuff & the what now stuff.
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Imagine if the club was well ran and we’d already sounded out his replacement and there just sorting out the finer details. I can live in hope.
The weight lifted when he is gone will be huge.
to be fair that's exactly what they did when the sacked Bilic and Big Sam was appointed immediately..... i wouldn't rule out an approach for him for the rest of the season, he already knows these players and can wheel & deal in a short space of time
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I am currently off with Covid so I have nothing better to do than be on here!
I wonder if this is a crisis meeting or a "pack your bags" meeting...
Caught it from the Idles concert per chance?
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to be fair that's exactly what they did when the sacked Bilic and Big Sam was appointed immediately..... i wouldn't rule out an approach for him for the rest of the season, he already knows these players and can wheel & deal in a short space of time
Had we not had him I’d completely agree. Short deal until end season and then look at options then.
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Spot on, but as been said previously easier to remove a manager than half the team who we would struggle to move on.
This is a long project the club is a mess from top to bottom but VI is part of the problem.
We don't seem to have a long term plan. Not many clubs do. The finances dictate that to a certain degree. We gambled on Val and it looks like that gamble has failed but like a bad bet, we need to try and chase our losses in the hope of promotion or staving off deeper financial difficulties. It stopped being a game a long time ago for the sport in general, it's now just a business.
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Why is there always one or two members who can’t wait to discredit people who come on with information. Lost a few cracking posters in the past because of this.
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to be fair that's exactly what they did when the sacked Bilic and Big Sam was appointed immediately..... i wouldn't rule out an approach for him for the rest of the season, he already knows these players and can wheel & deal in a short space of time
I'd love a Big Sam type till the end of the season. Sort this mess out. Back to basics.
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Why is there always one or two members who can’t wait to discredit people who come on with information. Lost a few cracking posters in the past because of this.
Some people are so desperate not to be proven wrong it's all they can do. Bakeyface is an asset to the board.
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I think we were right to try and think longer term and get some stability (i think thats the only way we have a chance of going up and staying up and Lai selling)
However it would seem we have backed the wrong horse if Ismael is sacked and i cant see Lai or the board being in any rush to start handing out long term contracts again let alone compo for a manager so we will go back to short term appts.
All we can hope if that does happen is one sticks and it works out, the last few years suggest otherwise.
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Assuming Val does go, would it not be easier to get the players to do the interviews for the new manager?!
They can ask the tough questions like when you trust us and we let you down will you be prepared to take the flak and get the sack? Will you promise not to make us try new things or else we will sulk (at this point the point at the headshots of Moore, Shan, Bilic, Allardyce and Ismael to make their point)
Take poor little sammy j in goal for example, yes he cost us a goal against Derby and then the next game got sent off after the game for a completely pointless incident meaning he was unavailable for three games and we had our biggest win in ages in that time but of course he should come straight into the team.
Little robert snodders in midfield, he has been with us a year and been injured for most of it, made about 6 starts, contributed nothing as of yet but of course he should feel he should challenge the manager.
Big jordan hugoal upfront, poor chap, been involved in over 20 games, scored one goal, missed more chances than i have hot dinners (and trust me my belly shows i have had a lot) but of course he is well within his rights to moan its not fair and he should be playing more.
The list could go on, they are a bunch of spoilt little princesses, Ismael in isolation if he goes is probably right, the fact most of these players have seen off at least 3, in some cases 5 managers in the last few years.
I agree with all this. At the end of the day these players are no good. You can change managers as much as you like there is no way these players will do any good. The last time we got promoted we over achieved. the one player who carried the team was Perierra. Now he has gone we are left with a load of dross.
Fans keep blaming the manager but its not the mangers fault that players can't pass to each other or they are second to any loose balls or fail to hit the target when in the opponents penalty area.
Lets face facts, this manager got Barnsley into the play offs. If we don't get into the play offs this season it proves that our players are not as good as Barnsley's last season.
We will finish about half way this season with Ismael or not. That is about what our players are worthy of and for all the fans who keep repeatly calling for the manager to be sacked, is all they deserve.
I just feel sorry for the true fans who go up week after week and are prepared to get behind the managerand not keep calling for managers to get sacked.
If he does go who do we get to take over. Let's face it we are only an average championship club so many would not even bother applying.
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Caught it from the Idles concert per chance?
Unfortunately i can track it back to just before that in a hospital down here in Cornwall and a couple of people i was with a lot testing positive just before I did, it's more likely I passed it around at Idles even though i was careful.
Back on track....a few twitter accounts stating he's gone now
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Please all remember that unless we are manager-less we don't talk potential replacements. Also try and not squabble with one another or make personal jibes.[/color]
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We don't seem to have a long term plan. Not many clubs do. The finances dictate that to a certain degree. We gambled on Val and it looks like that gamble has failed but like a bad bet, we need to try and chase our losses in the hope of promotion or staving off deeper financial difficulties. It stopped being a game a long time ago for the sport in general, it's now just a business.
Exactly right, there's no such thing as a long term plan for a club like us. If Val had been a roaring success he would have left, if he's a disaster he gets the sack, all of which is driven by finance.
I honestly think most fans bought into him early on, yes many voiced their concerns about style of play, but if it got results and organically improved, most would have gone along with it. The single biggest problem with Val was his inflexibility, however. Football fans are not stupid, we can see when something is not working, so when that happens and the coach does nothing to rectify it, it is unacceptable. No-one denies that this is a bang average group of players, many overpaid and on too lengthy contracts, but they are good enough to compete in this league and he managed to find a way of stifling that.
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Please all remember that unless we are manager-less we don't talk potential replacements. Also try and not squabble with one another or make personal jibes.[/color]
Genuine question, how come we can post a load of ******** and rumours on players potentially coming in to replace other players, but we can't talk about potential managers replacing current one, when there is a strong rumour it is imminent? Not a dig, just a question?
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If Val's sacked we then need to move onto whoever gave our old boys new contracts a few months ago and sack them.
We also need someone with a clue about football in a position of power. Our businessmen are useless.
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Warnock and Bruce available too..... #justsaying ;D ;)
Now that is a depressing prospect !!!!!
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What does a manager actually do?
We have players who have their cliques and friendships in the dressing room like every club does and as seen in the past will play for one of their own eg Big Dave and to a lesser extent Jimmy Shan.
If the players want to play a certain way and not have strops on matchdays then as Livermore is captain, why not let them choose how to play. Decide as a team and play as a team and take the responsibility be that praise or boos.
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Keep hearing he has lost the players etc but how many times can these players keep losing the manager ? Recruitment has been a shambles ever since we finished 10th and didn’t strengthen, lest season billic wanted Grant and we took months and eventually signed a player who had no pre season, this season Val wanted Dyke and only got him January, we recruit journeymen like Bartley etc while others like Phillips and Livermore appear to have been here too long, our big signings Burke, Zohore have been a disaster while our youth get little to no look in (although that appears to now be changing ) how we need a Dan Ashworth right now
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The dressing rooms must be so hard to find at the Hawthorns. I’ve lost count of the number of managers who have lost them!
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Genuine question, how come we can post a load of ******** and rumours on players potentially coming in to replace other players, but we can't talk about potential managers replacing current one, when there is a strong rumour it is imminent? Not a dig, just a question?
It is something we've always had in place and has been for years out of respect to the current head coach.
The rumours at present are fan driven so if there is something from the local sources then at that point when it is imminent we'll open up the thread.
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What does a manager actually do?
We have players who have their cliques and friendships in the dressing room like every club does and as seen in the past will play for one of their own eg Big Dave and to a lesser extent Jimmy Shan.
If the players want to play a certain way and not have strops on matchdays then as Livermore is captain, why not let them choose how to play. Decide as a team and play as a team and take the responsibility be that praise or boos.
They are all adults though so why can't it be collaborative? The manager has his preference but the players are allowed to have an opinion and between them they find the best solution. That's how I've always managed and it's worked for me. I don't see why football should be different, it's just human beings at the end of the day. Listening to others views and taking them into consideration is a strength not a weakness.
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a change now and there's still time to recover our season don't let it linger and fester
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Tick Tock Tick Tock...
Come on Albion, either quash the rumours or announce already.
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I agree with all this. At the end of the day these players are no good. You can change managers as much as you like there is no way these players will do any good. The last time we got promoted we over achieved. the one player who carried the team was Perierra. Now he has gone we are left with a load of dross.
Fans keep blaming the manager but its not the mangers fault that players can't pass to each other or they are second to any loose balls or fail to hit the target when in the opponents penalty area.
Lets face facts, this manager got Barnsley into the play offs. If we don't get into the play offs this season it proves that our players are not as good as Barnsley's last season.
We will finish about half way this season with Ismael or not. That is about what our players are worthy of and for all the fans who keep repeatly calling for the manager to be sacked, is all they deserve.
I just feel sorry for the true fans who go up week after week and are prepared to get behind the managerand not keep calling for managers to get sacked.
If he does go who do we get to take over. Let's face it we are only an average championship club so many would not even bother applying.
It is not the managers fault that the players can’t pass? Of course it is the fault of the manager and his coaching team. We’re not expecting a range of passing that is beyond these players, just basic level passing.
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Tick Tock Tick Tock...
Come on Albion, either quash the rumours or announce already.
He might get the dreaded vote of confidence from the board!
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If Val's sacked we then need to move onto whoever gave our old boys new contracts a few months ago and sack them.
We also need someone with a clue about football in a position of power. Our businessmen are useless.
If the posts above about VI's character are accurate, then I'd say it was the head coach that authorised the contract extensions.
The board made a brave decision to put the responsibility of determining our football identity with the head coach.
IMO, that was, & still is the correct decision.
Allegedly SA had advised the board to get a strong manager to deal with our "high ego" players, VI is that strong manager, although it looks as though he didn't get a first in diplomacy.
It does now look as though VI has reached the end of the road, but I would be disappointed if the club went back to it's previous model.
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If the posts above about VI's character are accurate, then I'd say it was the head coach that authorised the contract extensions.
The board made a brave decision to put the responsibility of determining our football identity with the head coach.
IMO, that was, & still is the correct decision.
Allegedly SA had advised the board to get a strong manager to deal with our "high ego" players, VI is that strong manager, although it looks as though he didn't get a first in diplomacy.
It does now look as though VI has reached the end of the road, but I would be disappointed if the club went back to it's previous model.
If VI is responsible for giving those players and Livermore by selection contract extensions then that makes everything worse about VI than previously thought.
We need to look at other successful clubs infrastructures and models and replicate them. Crazy when you think about it, once upon a time people looked to us, 6 years later or whatever we are down the pan
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Is Val a problem? At this point, yes.
Is he the ONLY problem? Not at all.
Taken from Twitter
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We are stuffed if he stays, he pulled out a plum at Barnsley by taking a pretty poor team and getting them to ambush other teams for half a season, but he is no more a proper manager than Bilic - all style, no substance.
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The dressing rooms must be so hard to find at the Hawthorns. I’ve lost count of the number of managers who have lost them!
They're the ones full of vanity mirrors and dressing tables with makeup, silly!
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Is Val a problem? At this point, yes.
Is he the ONLY problem? Not at all.
Taken from Twitter
Exactly but you need the right manager who can work with what he has. We currently have someone who can’t and it’s causing all the problems.
The bigger picture is a lot harder to solve unfortunately.
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This group of mediocre player’s proves that professional footballer’s are over paid pre Madonna’s, if Val was the right man he would have twigged this lot and shipped them out.
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This group of mediocre player’s proves that professional footballer’s are over paid pre Madonna’s, if Val was the right man he would have twigged this lot and shipped them out.
That's the worst thing. He seems to have rewarded 3/4 of them with new deals despite knowing the group needs breaking up bit by bit.
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This group of mediocre player’s proves that professional footballer’s are over paid pre Madonna’s, if Val was the right man he would have twigged this lot and shipped them out.
I think getting someone to buy any of this lot is the problem at the moment..
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If VI is responsible for giving those players and Livermore by selection contract extensions then that makes everything worse about VI than previously thought.
We need to look at other successful clubs infrastructures and models and replicate them. Crazy when you think about it, once upon a time people looked to us, 6 years later or whatever we are down the pan
They did, Peace had us running well, a model that was copied and lauded and a chairman that was ruthless and got what we wanted and wouldnt accept peanuts
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They did, Peace had us running well, a model that was copied and lauded and a chairman that was ruthless and got what we wanted and wouldnt accept peanuts
As much as I despise the bloke, you are correct.
Now I have to endure his wife on the 'Real Housewife's of Jersey', decked out in luxury garments and jewellery courtesy of WBAFC.
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I think getting someone to buy any of this lot is the problem at the moment..
We should really be releasing players like Livermore and Phillips as soon as their contracts are up. As you say no point in renewing them in the hope we can sell them on in future. They are a drain on resource and surely it can't be that difficult to replace them with better players for less money.
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I dont get this "bad squad , bad attitude under Bilic, Allardyce, pardew, uncle tom cobbley stuff"
Button, TGH, Mowatt, Dyke, Hugill, Snodgrass, Reach, Kipre, Molumby, Matt Clarke, Kean Bryan, and all the "kids" cannot be categorised in this way, thats a significant part of the squad,
Of that subset, the majority do not get picked because they are bombed, injured or in-experienced.
The choice is clear,
a) get shut of the bad eggs who VI is picking regularly and back the manager to do this, with minimal funding, or,
b) stick with the "bad eggs" under a man manger (a la bilic) who can get the optimum out of them, gradually transitioning to the kids and fresh faces.
The 4 years + Mowatt + Dike suggest the board are set upon option (a), the cost will be in league status / supporter angst for an extended period. It aint going to be a happy ship for a long time to come, thats for sure.
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Are they bad eggs or are they players who are as frustrated with the tactics as we are?
I mean, we think it's bad watching it, imagine you're one of the forwards just chasing the ball down against giant defenders and your reward is to get yoinked on 60 minutes.
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Are they bad eggs or are they players who are as frustrated with the tactics as we are?
I mean, we think it's bad watching it, imagine you're one of the forwards just chasing the ball down against giant defenders and your reward is to get yoinked on 60 minutes.
I wouldn't mind being pulled off on the hour. I'd just prefer the wife to do it rather than a 6ft 4inch Frenchman with a penchant for Bonnie Tyler on the karaoke. Nice boots though.
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Wonder what Mowatt thinks having had success with him before about how it's worked out
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They did, Peace had us running well, a model that was copied and lauded and a chairman that was ruthless and got what we wanted and wouldnt accept peanuts
What he ran the club like a mid table championship team and could have moved the club forward when we finished 10th but didn’t, he managed to persuade the Chinese to give him £150 million on the basis the club was a self sufficient premier league team the whole demise of the club goes to his door
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As much as I despise the bloke, you are correct.
Now I have to endure his wife on the 'Real Housewife's of Jersey', decked out in luxury garments and jewellery courtesy of WBAFC.
Peace earnt every penny. It’s courtesy of his graft, not WBAFC.
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Wonder what Mowatt thinks having had success with him before about how it's worked out
I've been trying to work out why he signed if VI is so bad to work for. And Dike and the staff he brought from Barnsley. Then I remembered this little chap who came to us from Grimsby.
Brought a load of former players with him. Went back to Grimsby and took a number of former players who reportedly didn't like working for him back to Grimsby. Wonder what it could be......
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I've been trying to work out why he signed if VI is so bad to work for. And Dike and the staff he brought from Barnsley. Then I remembered this little chap who came to us from Grimsby.
Brought a load of former players with him. Went back to Grimsby and took a number of former players who reportedly didn't like working for him back to Grimsby. Wonder what it could be......
I had erased that period from my memory, cheers Dan - not !
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Peace earnt every penny. It’s courtesy of his graft, not WBAFC.
I think you mean greed BB, not graft.
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I had erased that period from my memory, cheers Dan - not !
Welcome to my world. It's an unusual place.
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Feel free to look back over my messages, the Wilder one aside (which was correct at the time) nothing I have said has been ridiculously off the mark.
Sorry if you are a tad salty about that.
One love.
Take no notice pal. I am on this board daily and there is no one who has posted more accurately than you. Forget the Wilder thing, we know that was a very last minute U turn by the board.
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I really wanted it to work for him because i do like the way he comes across in interviews and he seems like a likeable person. Last night was further proof to me that the players have stopped playing for him. Couple that with the reactions from the stands and i think its best for both of us to now part ways.
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I think you mean greed BB, not graft.
Agree with you skyclad. I'm going off topic so apologies, but while he ran the club in a Steady Eddie way, a lot of his success was more down to luck than judgement (continuing Thompson's plans after his power grab and then Dan Ashworth falling in to his lap via Aidy Boothroyd), while his fortune was made by taking advantage of working class football fans who had bought shares years ago to help the club out.
People can say "that's life and business" all they want, but it doesn't mean he deserves credit for it.
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This board meeting's dragging on a bit.
Have they gone to McDonald's for some scran?
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This board meeting's dragging on a bit.
Have they gone to McDonald's for some scran?
If it's taking time then we all know it's because of the money conversation - How much is Val getting as compo etc. No other reason for taking this long.
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I may have missed ot, but has it been confirmed that there is a board meeting? All I've seen is twitter rumours so far?
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If it's taking time then we all know it's because of the money conversation - How much is Val getting as compo etc. No other reason for taking this long.
They may have had a change in tack and moved on from managerial departures to focus on outgoing and incoming players. As in Val might be staying.
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I have no confidence they will fire him, this situation has been building for months without any action. If we drop out of the top six they may do something but I am still of the opinion he will be given the season. A four year plan with a leader who knows how to build success is one thing but this was a ridiculous throw of the dice on a one hit wonder.
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What he ran the club like a mid table championship team and could have moved the club forward when we finished 10th but didn’t, he managed to persuade the Chinese to give him £150 million on the basis the club was a self sufficient premier league team the whole demise of the club goes to his door
Can't agree at all im sorry. He had us running perfectly. He employed good managers and employed a great TD. We signed some cracking players, won a trophy, got to the FA Cup SF and finished above midtable quite a few seasons. He had us promoted several times.
Best times as an Albion fan since the early 80's.
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I think we have that triple threat problem going on:
Poor standard of squad
Inept Manager
Careless owner
Combined, long term, it's really not good
I agree. I’ve feared this kind of thing happening to us again for the past 20 years, because like most clubs of our size we are only a few bad decisions away from dropping like a stone.
We are in a lot of trouble I’m afraid.
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Can't agree at all im sorry. He had us running perfectly. He employed good managers and employed a great TD. We signed some cracking players, won a trophy, got to the FA Cup SF and finished above midtable quite a few seasons. He had us promoted several times.
Best times as an Albion fan since the early 80's.
Yep, while JP motivation was too make money out of us he spent a long time getting us to a place where he could do so and produced the best times here i've seen in my lifetime.
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JP, built the club up, I enjoyed that,
He made a huge wedge and moved on, I have no great issue with that at all.
Did he use some dubious tactics to maximise his wedge - almost certainly - doubtful if illegal but dubious .
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Can't agree at all im sorry. He had us running perfectly. He employed good managers and employed a great TD. We signed some cracking players, won a trophy, got to the FA Cup SF and finished above midtable quite a few seasons. He had us promoted several times.
Best times as an Albion fan since the early 80's.
Exactly, Peace and Lai put as much money as eachother into the club - zero
The difference is one put an infrastructure in place (Ashworth) that led us to our most successful period for 30 years.
The other is just clueless on how to run a football club
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A lot of the issues with Lai were just a continuation of the course we were on with Peace, namely our planning went to hell, our recruitment was very poor after Ashworth, we cycled through numerous managers, a couple of which were baffling in their scope. Somehow we headhunted Alan Irvine of all people.
In the end he stabilised it somewhat with the appointment of Pulis, although with the trade off we were then built on a specific form of particularly direct football that in the end we've always ended up with - be that under Shan taking over from Moore, Billic, and Ismael and are seemingly now unable to escape.
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Lai took over and thought everything would just tick over until he could sell for a profit. Incredible arrogance and/or carelessness.
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The Bilic chants were embarrassing, is anyone going to admit to signing his name?
As for Val, the situation is too toxic, he will leave we lose Saturday.
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Morrison caretaker Manager someone has just text me.
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The Bilic chants were embarrassing, is anyone going to admit to signing his name?
As for Val, the situation is too toxic, he will leave we lose Saturday.
I dont think he will last that long.
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Morrison caretaker Manager someone has just text me.
How on earth have you got Ken's number?
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I dont think he will last that long.
Any excuse not to sign a new player..
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Morrison caretaker Manager someone has just text me.
the inmates will be running the asylum then
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the inmates will be running the asylum then
Lets not forget that a certain Mr J. Morrison decked Berahino for losing us points.
I don't know much about his tactical nous, but he'll care and he'll not put with any bs.*
*I hope to God.
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Morrison caretaker Manager someone has just text me.
Hope your contact is wrong.
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Morrison caretaker Manager someone has just text me.
Would be the obvious choice, still no official announcement though.
Let's hope he has the same impact as Moore.
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Hope your contact is wrong.
It is my contact from when I passed on some information from November when I said he part of the pre-match entertainment duo ;)
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What he ran the club like a mid table championship team and could have moved the club forward when we finished 10th but didn’t, he managed to persuade the Chinese to give him £150 million on the basis the club was a self sufficient premier league team the whole demise of the club goes to his door
it always amazes me when fans say .. we could have moved forward and should have invested when we finished 8th / 10th....
Genuinely move forward to where and at what cost..... lets look at the other clubs were were competing against and their financial clout... in 12/13 we finished 8th.. this was the table
1, Man Utd
2, Man City
3, Chelsea
4, Arsenal
5, Spurs
6, Everton
7, Liverpool
8, West Brom
so we were ahead of West Ham, Leicester, Villa, Southampton and Newcastle who all have greater finances than us.
But lets pretend JP did decide to spend a lot and try to push us on... How much would it cost to get into the top 6? £50m, £100, £150m, 200m in transfers and how much in wages..... all that too maybe move up one or two places in the table...
so to move from 8th to 6th would be an increase in £1.5m
https://worldsoccertalk.com/2013/05/20/the-premier-league-prize-money-table-see-how-many-millions-your-club-made/
so who in their right mind would speculate at least £100m in wages and transfers to earn an extra £1.5m....... that is how you bankrupt a club and that is exactly the mistake the likes of Stoke made and look at them now. its also why fans shouldn't run clubs.
I really do think that as fans we HAVE TO START appreciating our position in the football pyramid/world and be realistic. Yes I would love us to be huge, have millions and compete for titles, BUT IT WILL NEVER EVER HAPPEN unless we have a huge benefactor who sees us as his play toy and wants to rock the establishment.
However we are not in a fashionable part of the country, too foreign investors our name is not romantic enough etc etc, so the only way to grow and enjoy our club is to build things organically and appreciate our position. IMO that starts with a proper Director of Football who is in situ for at least 10 years and develops a DNA and a production line of quality players and excellent scouting system... Exactly like Southampton did with Les Reed and the way we used to use Dan Ashworth...
Now what I will definitely put at JPs door is that he was negligent in not replacing Ashworth with a like for like replacement..... but I cant have a go at him for not 'pushing on', not investing additional millions and nor can I have a go at him for accepting a ridiculously high offer from Lai. What would you do if on one hand you were offered £150-£200m from someone for the club, but on the other hand some fans are giving you grief for not spending and not really appreciating all the good work you have done to get the club into and established in the premier league...... I'd sell no question
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I dont think he will last that long.
I hope to god it's soon. I'm disabled and have an Immunity problem it's rough enough at the moment I only have the footy on the radio to look forward too and that's **** :'( :'(
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it always amazes me when fans say .. we could have moved forward and should have invested when we finished 8th / 10th....
Genuinely move forward to where and at what cost..... lets look at the other clubs were were competing against and their financial clout... in 12/13 we finished 8th.. this was the table
1, Man Utd
2, Man City
3, Chelsea
4, Arsenal
5, Spurs
6, Everton
7, Liverpool
8, West Brom
so were were ahead of West Ham, Leicester, Villa, Southampton and Newcastle who all have greater finances than us.
But lets pretend JP did decide to spend a lot and try to push us on... How much would it cost to get into teh top 6? £50m, £100, £150m, 200m in transfers and how much in wages..... all that to maybe move up one or two places in the table...
so to move from 8th to 6th would be an increase in £1.5m
https://worldsoccertalk.com/2013/05/20/the-premier-league-prize-money-table-see-how-many-millions-your-club-made/
so who in their right mind would speculate at least £100m in wages and transfers to earn an extra £1.5m....... that is how you bankrupt a club and that is exactly teh mistake the likes of Stoke made and look at them now.
I really do think that as fans we HAVE TO START appreciating our position in teh football pyramid and world and be realistic. Yes i would love us to be huge, have millions and compete for title, BUT IT WILL NEVER EVER HAPPEN unless we have a huge benefactor who sees us as his play toy and wants to rock teh establishment.
However we are not in a fashionable part of the country, to foreign investors our name is not romantic enough etc etc, so the only way to grow and enjoy our club is to build things organically and appreciate our position. IMO that starts with a proper Director of Football who is in situ for at least 10 years and develops a DNA and a production line of quality players and excellent scouting system... Exactly like Southampton did with Les Reed and the way we used to have Dan Ashworth...
Now what I will definitely put at JPs door is that he was negligent in not replacing Ashworth with a like for like replacement..... but i cant have a go at him for not 'pushing on', not investing additional millions and nor can I have a go at him for accepting a ridiculously high offer from Lai. What would you do if on one hand you were offered £150-£200m from someone for the club but on the other hand some fans are giving you grief for not spending and not really appreciating all the good work you have done to get the club into and established in the premier league......
Who said we needed to push on and aim higher though? The problem with the Prem is that if you don't spend and strengthen you go backwards because everybody else does. 10th was a good finish (and should have been higher), but if you don't continuously improve your squad you'll be overtaken and slip backwards. Which is what happened.
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might be interesting to read their views on Val
https://barnsleyfc.org.uk/threads/baggies-hammering-big-val.311468/
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Who said we needed to push on and aim higher though? The problem with the Prem is that if you don't spend and strengthen you go backwards because everybody else does. 10th was a good finish (and should have been higher), but if you don't continuously improve your squad you'll be overtaken and slip backwards. Which is what happened.
a quote from Kirk said exactly that
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I may have missed ot, but has it been confirmed that there is a board meeting? All I've seen is twitter rumours so far?
It seems its ran on Twitter based on the comments of Bakeayebaggie on here
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It is my contact from when I passed on some information from November when I said he part of the pre-match entertainment duo ;)
A Bird or a Boiler? :D
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might be interesting to read their views on Val
https://barnsleyfc.org.uk/threads/baggies-hammering-big-val.311468/
All well and good but it's a different ball game compared to last season. I am starting to wonder how much the lack of a crowd and five subs helped him. There's even a few in that thread saying they got well and truly found out in the POs.
As for the comments about being top six not bottom six... anything lower than 4th would be our lowest league finish for over 20 years. No one is too good to slide down the leagues but we rightly should expect better.
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Albion have confirmed there's a pre game presser with VI tommorow for the Millwall game :o
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Wonder if they have said you have one more chance but screw your 3 4 3 ;D
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Huge game on Saturday and the players have to do more and show up, their performance last night by all accounts was terrible. Interesting to see what reaction we get.
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For God sake how is he still in charge >:(
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Huge game on Saturday and the players have to do more and show up, their performance last night by all accounts was terrible. Interesting to see what reaction we get.
What improvements do you think Val will make on his half of the deal?
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All well and good but it's a different ball game compared to last season. I am starting to wonder how much the lack of a crowd and five subs helped him. There's even a few in that thread saying they got well and truly found out in the POs.
As for the comments about being top six not bottom six... anything lower than 4th would be our lowest league finish for over 20 years. No one is too good to slide down the leagues but we rightly should expect better.
I watched the play offs and although I was initially taken aback by the intensity at which Barnsley played I do remember thinking that Swansea managed them pretty well and came out easy winners even though it was only by the odd goal.
I guess the presumption was that Barnsley fell down at the semi final hurdle due to that lack in quality, which the Albion would have. Maybe they actually got to the play offs because they didn't have supposed quality players but instead players who were willing to follow orders and buy into the vision for a chance at success.
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Albion have confirmed there's a pre game presser with VI tommorow for the Millwall game :o
The board decided one more game to try and turn things around, away from the Home Supporters. Real last chance saloon. Unless he wins every game from here to march, I can't see him playing this one out.
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Albion have confirmed there's a pre game presser with VI tommorow for the Millwall game :o
Talk about a waste of a day refreshing on here and Twitter, now thats an anti-climax if ever there was one! :'(
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What a surprise - the board really have not got a clue have they! It's getting funny how out of touch with the fans they are . They're probably lining up Neil Warnock as we speak
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Whats the point in giving him 1 more game? The players wont do anything different to last night. Not going to be a great performance.
Ridiculous decision, dithering from the board yet again.
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The board decided one more game to try and turn things around, away from the Home Supporters. Real last chance saloon. Unless he wins every game from here to march, I can't see him playing this one out.
Of course...
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The board decided one more game to try and turn things around, away from the Home Supporters. Real last chance saloon. Unless he wins every game from here to march, I can't see him playing this one out.
Wow they expect him to win?
Fair play, i suppose we've chucked the best part of 15 games, 1 more won't hurt i guess.
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Joseph Msi just Tweeted
Albion have announced Valerien Ismael will hold his pre-Millwall press conference at 11am tomorrow.
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One empty chamber left the bullet is in the next one.
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Vals position is untenable now. Keeping him in his job is just delaying the inevitable and wasting each day.
Last night was rock bottom he was never going to recover from that.
The people running this club couldn't run a bath. They are stupid and incompetent.
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Joseph Msi just Tweeted
Albion have announced Valerien Ismael will hold his pre-Millwall press conference at 11am tomorrow.
Don’t normally announce that do they. Seems to be a bit of a response to the rumours.
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What a surprise - the board really have not got a clue have they! It's getting funny how out of touch with the fans they are . They're probably lining up Neil Warnock as we speak
Could well be buying time.
The decision is made but hes going after Millwall regardless while they speak to managers.
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After Millwall, the next game is on the 9th Feb, so maybe thats the reason why. Get through 1 more game, then have time to get someone in or some coaching before Sheff Utd.
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Yeah just run with what we have for now, sack him and then got time to get someone in. Can also look for his replacement now in meantime.
Wonder if VI will go 3-4-3 with his best pals playing again or do something/anything different.
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Remember that time when Pardew was obviously taking us down but the board didn't want to pay him off, but by the time they eventually agreed to get rid of him (long after they should have) it was too late to save our season. This is happening again. The board have learned nothing and neither has Val.
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I reckon they all sat round and decided:
"He has to go, absolutely, no question, unanimous, has to go"
"Right get him in"
Val walks in wicked as a wasp, shirt sleeves rolled up, chewing his gum like an angry kangaroo.
Sheepish looks around the room and nods of
"I'm not telling him, you tell him"
"No you"
" Ok Mr Ismael sir, thank you for gracing us with your presence, we have decided to give you another chance........."
Whispers "some one stand Jimmy down"
"I'm not telling him, you tell him"
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I’m not a massive fan of the board but if I was in their shoes I’d keep him for a couple of weeks and now be on the phone to candidates and get someone lined up so when he is fired in the next 10 days we have a plan. He’s done here but we gain nothing by not having a man ready.
Exactly like they did with big Sam. In fact I’d call him now and say fancy it until the end of the season.
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I’m not a massive fan of the board but if I was in their shoes I’d keep him for a couple of weeks and now be on the phone to candidates and get someone lined up so when he is fired in the next 10 days we have a plan. He’s done here but we gain nothing by not having a man ready.
Exactly like they did with big Sam. In fact I’d call him now and say fancy it until the end of the season.
I'd be on the blower to Sam right now.
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Seriously what is the point. May as well have no one in charge as let him carry on. He will do what he has done for the whole season, I could pick the team and bring on subs at 60 minutes and stand there clapping and whistling makes no difference, except I wouldn't receive the ire of the fans in the away end and I wouldn't be responsible for a toxic atmosphere. His position is untenable we have nothing to gain from dragging it out.
Get rid now at least the players might feel a sense of relief and play with a weight lifted on Saturday - I know I would certainly feel a sense of relief anyway and I assume the fans would be happier which could just give us an edge in the game.
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the inmates will be running the asylum then
Not happening. I turned the job down. Bloody madhouse it is.
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I reckon they all sat round and decided:
"He has to go, absolutely, no question, unanimous, has to go"
"Right get him in"
Val walks in wicked as a wasp, shirt sleeves rolled up, chewing his gum like an angry kangaroo.
Sheepish looks around the room and nods of
"I'm not telling him, you tell him"
"No you"
" Ok Mr Ismael sir, thank you for gracing us with your presence, we have decided to give you another chance........."
Whispers "some one stand Jimmy down"
"I'm not telling him, you tell him"
I fixed this for you:
"He has to go, absolutely, no question, unanimous, has to go"
"Right then, how much will this cost us?"
"oh... "
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Could well be buying time.
The decision is made but hes going after Millwall regardless while they speak to managers.
Maybe but not so sure with those 'running' the club at the moment. This shows a really poor gauge of the fans temperature. What happens if we win 3-0 vs Milwall - still sack him, surely not? Then we limp on for another few games with a toxic atmosphere - that is if many fans decide to continue turning up until the next time it blows up in a big way? If they've decided to sack him , surely they should've done it and put in place a caretaker pending a new appointment like a normal club would?
I think they (board) honestly believe he can turn this around and want to give him a chance - do they watch football (I think I know the answer to that)? They'll understand the impact on gate receipts instead I guess.....
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The board decided one more game to try and turn things around, away from the Home Supporters. Real last chance saloon. Unless he wins every game from here to march, I can't see him playing this one out.
How does that even make sense when our away form is atrocious? It was only the home form that was keeping him his job surely?
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Maybe but not so sure with those 'running' the club at the moment. This shows a really poor gauge of the fans temperature. What happens if we win 3-0 vs Milwall - still sack him, surely not? Then we limp on for another few games with a toxic atmosphere - that is if many fans decide to continue turning up until the next time it blows up in a big way? If they've decided to sack him , surely they should've done it and put in place a caretaker pending a new appointment like a normal club would?
I think they (board) honestly believe he can turn this around and want to give him a chance - do they watch football (I think I know the answer to that)? They'll understand the impact on gate receipts instead I guess.....
The board are stupid but surely they cant be that stupid to keep him.
They did the same to Bilic, was on a bad run, got a draw out the blue against Man City and still got sacked because they had made a decision behind his back
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Maybe they're keeping him in order to let him get 'thrown to the lions' on Saturday and then bring in a new coach who can't spend any of the clubs gold bars stored underneath the hawthorns on new players in the next few days. That way a new coach has a simple remit - get us promoted with Ismael's players.
Classic Albion board decision making
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So its essentially Football hokey cokey....Win a game and your in and lose a game and your out :)
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Im surprised...really surprised!
Lets see how this pans out.
Even if he wins v Millwall I think the next home game will be even more toxic than last night.
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So its essentially Football hokey cokey....Win a game and your in and lose a game and your out :)
I think thats what they have told him. I think he's gone regardless.
Keeping him on now we would create a situation worse than Bilic vs Board one.
Has has to go.
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I reckon it is just giving the board time to think of a replacement and/or find out how to do it.
Remember Dowling sorted VI - who is there to organise the new appointment?
They don't know what they're doing...
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Buying a bit more time because those in charge have little idea what to do . Shame as I was looking forward to seeing a game that I wouldn't know the plot too . 90 odd more mins of dozy football and long punts . Lovely .
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I reckon it is just giving the board time to think of a replacement and/or find out how to do it.
Remember Dowling sorted VI - who is there to organise the new appointment?
They don't know what they're doing...
Dowling didnt want him.
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I reckon it is just giving the board time to think of a replacement and/or find out how to do it
They could do that with Morrison in charge in the interim.
Sacking VI now at least lifts the doom and gloom and gives the fans hope and even starts to build bridges.
But no they can't get anything right. We are run by stupids.
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I really don’t understand the logic in keeping him in charge. Players going through the motions and wasting an opportunity of three points is pointless.
After such rubbish. It will still be 3-4-3. Any coach at the club could take this game better. Dont blame val 100%. But time is up. Players and manager have clashed too much. It’s obvious to everyone.
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They could do that with Morrison in charge in the interim.
Sacking VI now at least lifts the doom and gloom and gives the fans hope and even starts to build bridges.
But no they can't get anything right. We are run by stupids.
100000% correct.
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Wouldn't want to be an Albion fan going to Millway away under VI at the best of times. Saturday could be a nightmare.
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I think thats what they have told him. I think he's gone regardless.
Keeping him on now we would create a situation worse than Bilic vs Board one.
Has has to go.
Agreed. Don't see what giving him Millwall will do. Put's us another 3 points behind the the teams around us....
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Wouldn't want to be an Albion fan going to Millway away under VI at the best of times. Saturday could be a nightmare.
We're going down on the train, 07:33 from New Street to Euston and taking it from there ;D .
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2pm when the team comes out on Saturday will dictate to me how I think things will go. Play the same formation with the usual names on the teamsheet and unless Millwall don't do any homework then it could be a long long afternoon.
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who are the board anyway? who makes up the numbers and members exactly. going back to Val last season remembering he had no supporters in stadiums, most likely helping part of his reasonable season. we would have won this Saturday had he been sacked, now i don't think so . that's another valuable bit of time wasted
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There's been no official word that there was even a board meeting, this could all be rumour, from the initial sacking, to the one game reprieve.
Maybe we've all jumped on it, out of wishful thinking whilst, in reality, the Val and Ken are just sitting around having a brew and discussing who goes where in Saturday's 343.
There's just no logic to the one more game thing. From what I've heard of Val, there's no way he'd have it, but, more importantly, why would you entrust a game, which could see us out of the top 6 for the first time, to a bloke you've just told you don't trust? Not even our mob are that bonkers.
I think at worst he's had a talking to, but, more likely, it's just been business as usual and we've wasted a day.
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Wouldn't want to be an Albion fan going to Millway away under VI at the best of times. Saturday could be a nightmare.
The past couple of months have been a bit like watching a slow motion car crash so it'll probably be more of the same.
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What improvements do you think Val will make on his half of the deal?
Let's see what team he picks. Ultimately whoever is selected needs to be able to run around, trap the ball and pass it accurately; just some basics from the players to demonstrate why they are professional footballers and not clowns would be a huge help.
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The past couple of months have been a bit like watching a slow motion car crash so it'll probably be more of the same.
This time though you could get whiplash.
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We're going down on the train, 07:33 from New Street to Euston and taking it from there ;D .
Good luck Dan and godspeed! ;D
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2pm when the team comes out on Saturday will dictate to me how I think things will go. Play the same formation with the usual names on the teamsheet and unless Millwall don't do any homework then it could be a long long afternoon.
After consulting xg and running the algorithms I have deduced that there is a 0.000000% chance that the formation will be anything other than 343 on Saturday.
Maybe this whole rumour was started by some scamp from saaarf Landan, just to ensure the 3 points on Saturday.
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After consulting xg and running the algorithms I have deduced that there is a 0.000000% chance that the formation will be anything other than 343 on Saturday.
Maybe this whole rumour was started by some scamp from saaarf Landan, just to ensure the 3 points on Saturday.
Imagine if he did something different and we thumped them :o
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Wouldn't want to be an Albion fan going to Millway away under VI at the best of times. Saturday could be a nightmare.
Ask me again on Saturday morning at 7am when im on the way to the station about whether I want to be an albion fan at that moment in time :P
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After consulting xg and running the algorithms I have deduced that there is a 0.000000% chance that the formation will be anything other than 343 on Saturday.
Maybe this whole rumour was started by some scamp from saaarf Landan, just to ensure the 3 points on Saturday.
All managers have their preferred system. Val likes to play 343 with a high press. Klopp always plays 433 with a high press. I don't think the formation itself is a problem; standard of performances from a lot of the team is a problem; some have been stealing a living recently.
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I think we'll know a lot about this meeting when we see the team and style of play on Saturday.
4 of our next 6 games are away so 2 home games between now and March, so maybe the board have decided, through Val's encouragement no doubt, that he can stem the blood and repair the damage before March and April where we have 6 home games.
This is not my opinion, just some guess work. Perhaps they are backing their man with 1 last chance and maybe a transfer or 2?
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All managers have their preferred system. Val likes to play 343 with a high press. Klopp always plays 433 with a high press. I don't think the formation itself is a problem; standard of performances from a lot of the team is a problem; some have been stealing a living recently.
Klopp can buy what he needs though. Val cannot. If the manager does not suit the players then he always goes first logistically.
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Maybe there thinking lose on Saturday and drop out top 6. Cheaper to sack maybe. only Albion would think about the money.
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Ask me again on Saturday morning at 7am when im on the way to the station about whether I want to be an albion fan at that moment in time :P
You will always want to be an Albion fan Dan, long after this circus in charge have packed up their tent and done one.
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I think thats what they have told him. I think he's gone regardless.
Keeping him on now we would create a situation worse than Bilic vs Board one.
Has has to go.
Why keep the toxic atmosphere and players that wont play for him, surely get a caretaker in to avoid the poor atmosphere and that the players might just play for. Keeping him on for another game just doesnt make any sense unless he is staying for several more games.
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If as it seems he was so close to the sack it does seem odd to go game by game.
Its all ifs ans maybes but if the board spoke to him and told him he has to change, your undermining him because the way he is and plays is the reason he got the job in the first place!
Maybe a few players have supported him, as said before there is suppoedly a rotten group but that doesnt mean all the players are (i would say this is unlikely but you never know)
If it is a game by game review then it completely reduces his authority, as others have said i think the teamsheet and performance / result saturday will tell us a lot, if its another no show from the players and it is the end for val, i think that would confirm my doubts about what type of players we have.
To be fair it is only rumours about the meeting today so cant expect the board to put a statement out but if the plan is for Ismael to stay on longer than game by game, i hope he is allowed to do some wheeling and dealing before monday, get rid of a few and bring a few new faces in as i cant see it ending well if we just limp on like we are.
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Why keep the toxic atmosphere and players that wont play for him, surely get a caretaker in to avoid the poor atmosphere and that the players might just play for. Keeping him on for another game just doesnt make any sense unless he is staying for several more games.
Maybe it's just easier. We have a passive board, near comatose in fact.
Give them the chance to do nothing and they will.
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Klopp can buy what he needs though. Val cannot. If the manager does not suit the players then he always goes first logistically.
VI has been on a hiding to nothing. Bought in with a clear system that whether we like it or not worked in previous jobs. Not backed much in the transfer market at all...
Outs included: Hegazi, Pereira, Austin, Grosicki, Edwards, Field
Ins: Mowatt, Clarke, Molumby and recently Dike but also no hopers like Reach and Hugill with next to no money spent.
VI being bought in needed to be backed to have the right players, he hasn't been. VI has then failed with tactics in game and formation choices.
I'm stuck in 2 minds here, i feel VI has had next to no chance of succeeding this quickly and we are in a position where we should expect to be although I acknowledge our recent form is a downward spiral.
The players are not exonerated and a new manager will just inherit the same problems eventually.
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VI has been on a hiding to nothing. Bought in with a clear system that whether we like it or not worked in previous jobs. Not backed much in the transfer market at all...
Outs included: Hegazi, Pereira, Austin, Grosicki, Edwards, Field
Ins: Mowatt, Clarke, Molumby and recently Dike but also no hopers like Reach and Hugill with next to no money spent.
VI being bought in needed to be backed to have the right players, he hasn't been. VI has then failed with tactics in game and formation choices.
I'm stuck in 2 minds here, i feel VI has had next to no chance of succeeding this quickly and we are in a position where we should expect to be although I acknowledge our recent form is a downward spiral.
The players are not exonerated and a new manager will just inherit the same problems eventually.
VI also knew what players we had and was aware of budget limitations so it's 50/50.
He was stupid to take the job on in hindsight but i thought he looked at the squad and thought if i can get Barnsley nearly promoted then with this lot it should be a doddle.
At Barnsley no one bothered to try and counter him so his lack of tactical mind was not exposed.
I think he thought he could make a good name for himself here but sadly he got done by Darren Ferguson.
Everything else aside what really killed Valerian Ismael was himself. Zero flexibility, zero tactical ability outside of 3-4-3, picking his favourites regardless of form, bombing out 4/5 players with poor man management, poor team selection likely due to getting his faves in etc.
Whatever words you could think of to call this guy it's safe to say a good manager is not one of them.
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You will always want to be an Albion fan Dan, long after this circus in charge have packed up their tent and done one.
:'( damn it, i've been rumbled.
As an aside, it really will be interesting to see how the fans react on Saturday...our away form this season has been pretty poor already and with the situation as it is I can see things getting nasty; even away from home; very quickly if it's more of the same.
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Why keep the toxic atmosphere and players that wont play for him, surely get a caretaker in to avoid the poor atmosphere and that the players might just play for. Keeping him on for another game just doesnt make any sense unless he is staying for several more games.
They gave Bilic the Man City game even though they had decided to sack him so who knows what they are thinking...
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VI also knew what players we had and was aware of budget limitations so it's 50/50.
He was stupid to take the job on in hindsight but i thought he looked at the squad and thought if i can get Barnsley nearly promoted then with this lot it should be a doddle.
At Barnsley no one bothered to try and counter him so his lack of tactical mind was not exposed.
I think he thought he could make a good name for himself here but sadly he got done by Darren Ferguson.
Everything else aside what really killed Valerian Ismael was himself. Zero flexibility, zero tactical ability outside of 3-4-3, picking his favourites regardless of form, bombing out 4/5 players with poor man management, poor team selection likely due to getting his faves in etc.
Whatever words you could think of to call this guy it's safe to say a good manager is not one of them.
Regardless of players his main two tactics are knocking it long or working it wide and crossing to a normally packed box . Add to that long throws and rugby scrums in the box , he's limited and a real step back in time with tactics like that . We aren't giving average teams anything to worry about , goalkeepers are having a easy day out . No issue trying a different approach with VI from the board but it hasn't worked out for either party , do the right thing.
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:'( damn it, i've been rumbled.
As an aside, itr really will be interesting on how fans react on Saturday...our away form this season has been pretty poor already, and with the situation as it is I can see things getting nasty; even away from home; very quickly if it's more of the same.
I take my hat off to anyone going to Millwall on Saturday after last night. I went to Ipswich the week after we got done by Woking - from memory we lost 1-0. That was a lonely trip back.
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Regardless of players his main two tactics are knocking it long or working it wide and crossing to a normally packed box . Add to that long throws and rugby scrums in the box , he's limited and a real step back in time with tactics like that . We aren't giving average teams anything to worry about , goalkeepers are having a easy day out . No issue trying a different approach with VI from the board but it hasn't worked out for either party , do the right thing.
Full agreement. We are the easiest team to play against in the league.
I've never seen such a rapid decline across such a large section of the squad than i have with 6 months under VI or whatever.
A disastrous appointment.
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There is no leadership, no plan, no strategy, no decisiveness, no footballing knowledge (what we had left with Big Sam), no investment, we appear to be well and truly stuffed!
But........
We Love You Albion, We Do, Oh Albion We Love You!
COYB!!!!
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Thought the board would of acted today but local journo Massi tweeted press conference as normal tomorrow for Millwall game, this could go the way of Clueless who left out of embarrassment.
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VI has been on a hiding to nothing. Bought in with a clear system that whether we like it or not worked in previous jobs. Not backed much in the transfer market at all...
Outs included: Hegazi, Pereira, Austin, Grosicki, Edwards, Field
Ins: Mowatt, Clarke, Molumby and recently Dike but also no hopers like Reach and Hugill with next to no money spent.
VI being bought in needed to be backed to have the right players, he hasn't been. VI has then failed with tactics in game and formation choices.
I'm stuck in 2 minds here, i feel VI has had next to no chance of succeeding this quickly and we are in a position where we should expect to be although I acknowledge our recent form is a downward spiral.
The players are not exonerated and a new manager will just inherit the same problems eventually.
I don't know the figures but, I would imagine he has been backed more than his counterparts at Preston, Cardiff, Milwall, Barnsley, Derby, Huddersfield, and Blackpool. Probably put together. All of whom we have failed miserably against and it's not as if they upped their game and played out of their skin, they just tactically out thought him.
He bought in Mowatt, Hugill, Reach, Clarke and Mulumby. The fact that they were free or loans is neither here nor there, if that's the budget, that's the budget, he can't be backed with money that isn't there. It's up to him to get the best out of it and he hasn't. He was, in fairness, incredibly unlucky with Dike.
The players that he inherited, he was fully aware of when he interviewed for the job and, presumably, made a good case that he could get the best out of them, which again, he has failed to do. He also went public with the fact that Pereira wasn't welcome because of his attitude and fair play to him, good management. At no point, however, did he attempt to replace him.
Anyway, it is what it is and he's still around so I wish him all the best and hope and pray that he gets a win on Saturday and every subsequent game after that. He has no rope with the fans though so, if he doesn't they will make their voices heard and he can have no complaints.
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That's the sum of it all as seteefeet said above me.
Val isn't generally losing to teams with better players, he's losing to teams with worse players than our own.
He has lost his 1v1 battles with his opposing manager week in and week out.
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That's the sum of it all as seteefeet said above me.
Val isn't generally losing to teams with better players, he's losing to teams with worse players than our own.
He has lost his 1v1 battles with his opposing manager week in and week out.
And that is where he has to absolutely change. Guess that's the problem with an inexperienced manager - we don't have time for him to learn.
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And that is where he has to absolutely change. Guess that's the problem with an inexperienced manager - we don't have time for him to learn.
We don't have the money to buy him what he needs either so best to cut ties.
Has been clear for 3 months now but only now are we considering taking action. Nuts.
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Woooh what a big mess the club is in. Where to start?
Do i blame Val, no. He took a job he was offered as would most people in that situation. Was he the right man, probably not but the club and some fans bought into his ideology and hoped it would be different. We knew it was a risk and it hasn't paid off and ultimately he will pay the price.
However, I honestly don't think it's all down to him. The club is ran appallingly, and every noise out the club is a negative one.
I honestly think this is the start of a few years bouncing around the middle/lower end of the championship.
It's sad, but I guess it's "our turn" for some poorer times I guess.
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The club are awful, but so is he. Pulis and Irvine went for less.
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Could well be buying time.
The decision is made but hes going after Millwall regardless while they speak to managers.
i would say its exactly this.
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The worst thing Ismael has done this season is play Livermore enough times to trigger another 12 months at the club.
Even if we choose Morrison, if he selects Livermore the rest of this season and next, we won't get promoted anyway.
Is Ismael ditches this player and plays a different midfield, then at least he has realised his terrible mistake.
For as long as he's in the job it's not too late.
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I would say he's going after the transfer market closes so they don't have to stump any money for a new coach to buy players
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Maybe there thinking lose on Saturday and drop out top 6. Cheaper to sack maybe. only Albion would think about the money.
Or maybe they don't want to sack the coaching staff in Jan / Feb, having only appointed them in the summer with a four year plan and are prepared to be patient come what may.
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Or maybe they don't want to sack the coaching staff in Jan / Feb, having only appointed them in the summer with a four year plan and are prepared to be patient come what may.
This wouldn't wash he's lost the crowd I think thousands said that's enough on Wednesday night.
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This wouldn't wash he's lost the crowd I think thousands said that's enough on Wednesday night.
Good job the crowd aren't in charge then. Especially since a fair few have called for Bilic to be sacked as reward for promotion, then called for Allardyce to be sacked and now want Ismael sacked. The track record of following the crowd and chopping & changing the manger every six months isn't a pretty one.
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E&S running a poll on Val
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/27/poll-is-valerien-ismaels-time-up-at-west-brom/
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Good job the crowd aren't in charge then. Especially since a fair few have called for Bilic to be sacked as reward for promotion, then called for Allardyce to be sacked and now want Ismael sacked. The track record of following the crowd and chopping & changing the manger every six months isn't a pretty one.
The crowd having a say goes way back, remember the coffin for Bobby Gould they're right sometimes.
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OK VI has not up to this point been a great success but how is sacking him at this point going to help the club?
What sort of coach is going to come in towards the end of the transfer window and with little or no money to spend in any case? They'll know that they've got just of 4 months to be wildly successful or it's down the road.
Chopping and changing managers sends a signal to the players that they don't need to try if they don't like the manager's ideas. There'll be another manager along in 4 months time (cf Watford) - why be loyal?
Is Morrison the type of bloke who can stamp his authority on this lot. Maybe he'd be collegiate: team gets together to pick itself: "its Jake's turn to go CF this weekend"?
The most likely outcome this season is that we won't make the play-offs no matter who comes in. So give VI a chance until the end of the season. It also gives the management a chance to find another manager or, more effectively, to appoint someone who can find a replacement that is both competent and willing (good luck with that ).
Oh please don't mention Fat Sam. He would need a lot of money for himself and for loans; we haven't got that money.
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Have ago all you like at the manager but the players are dog pooh and have as much heart and courage as the lion in the wizard of Oz.
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It seems its ran on Twitter based on the comments of Bakeayebaggie on here
Hello Liam,
I saw a screenshot taken from this topic on twitter this morning.
In your capacity as a WestBrom.com administrator, can you advise if this practice is legitimate please?
For example, can anyone lift comments from this site & post them on social media without the permission of the original poster?
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I'd be on the blower to Sam right now.
I really hope not.
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I really hope not.
He would decimate Vals PPG but not his Xg maybe.
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He would decimate Vals PPG but not his Xg maybe.
Just don’t want the guy here. Once was more than enough. Thankfully it won’t happen anyway. :o
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Just don’t want the guy here. Once was more than enough. Thankfully it won’t happen anyway. :o
I can't see it happening either but we need a no-nonsense, back to basics guy to finish the season off.
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It genuinely felt like it might happen today after the fans reaction last night. But FWIW once Massi confirmed Val was taking the press conference tomorrow my gut feeling said here for the season!
Probably cheaper to chuck another striker at the problem than pay him and his team off. The fact there is only one home game in the next month might have also been a consideration.
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Good job the crowd aren't in charge then. Especially since a fair few have called for Bilic to be sacked as reward for promotion, then called for Allardyce to be sacked and now want Ismael sacked. The track record of following the crowd and chopping & changing the manger every six months isn't a pretty one.
You could very easily argue a majority of people wanted Bilic to stay on and wanted Allardyce to manage in the championship.
Ismael is the first manager since Robson to suffer a sustained period of dissent from the crowd at large.
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Hello Liam,
I saw a screenshot taken from this topic on twitter this morning.
In your capacity as a WestBrom.com administrator, can you advise if this practice is legitimate please?
For example, can anyone lift comments from this site & post them on social media without the permission of the original poster?
I know it’s not addressed to me, Once you post something on an open / free forum I think it’s perfectly legitimate. Tabloids lift stuff all the time.
On this site, stuff gets posted from behind the athletic paywall (which I think is potentially more troublesome).
In reality, you shouldn’t say anything in here that you wouldn’t want published or linked elsewhere and I don’t think the person that posted it and referenced it did anything wrong. They just highlighted the source of some speculation,
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Seems odd that we'd stick with a 4 year plan now, even when it looks like it might mean a sustained stay in the Championship, yet we ditched Bilic pretty quickly and threw out his plan.
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Seems odd that we'd stick with a 4 year plan now, even when it looks like it might mean a sustained stay in the Championship, yet we ditched Bilic pretty quickly and threw out his plan.
Some really interesting thoughts/ITK posted in this thread earlier today on why Slav was jettisoned so quickly.
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Can't agree at all im sorry. He had us running perfectly. He employed good managers and employed a great TD. We signed some cracking players, won a trophy, got to the FA Cup SF and finished above midtable quite a few seasons. He had us promoted several times.
Best times as an Albion fan since the early 80's.
Inherited a legend of a manager which he told the previous chairman to sack, Alan Irvine , Pepe Mel & pulls … as for players just Listen to what they say about him. I suggest your worship of him getting promoted doesn’t mention relegation
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Hello Liam,
I saw a screenshot taken from this topic on twitter this morning.
In your capacity as a WestBrom.com administrator, can you advise if this practice is legitimate please?
For example, can anyone lift comments from this site & post them on social media without the permission of the original poster?
Ideally what should happen is that if individuals are going to quote posters or lift material from this forum then they should be referencing the forum as a source. Our rules are clear in that external individuals should obtain authorisation from this forum first.
We’ve had it before when journalists have tried taking content from the forum and at that point we usually close the forum to guests which then requires them to register.
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it always amazes me when fans say .. we could have moved forward and should have invested when we finished 8th / 10th....
Genuinely move forward to where and at what cost..... lets look at the other clubs were were competing against and their financial clout... in 12/13 we finished 8th.. this was the table
1, Man Utd
2, Man City
3, Chelsea
4, Arsenal
5, Spurs
6, Everton
7, Liverpool
8, West Brom
so we were ahead of West Ham, Leicester, Villa, Southampton and Newcastle who all have greater finances than us.
But lets pretend JP did decide to spend a lot and try to push us on... How much would it cost to get into the top 6? £50m, £100, £150m, 200m in transfers and how much in wages..... all that too maybe move up one or two places in the table...
so to move from 8th to 6th would be an increase in £1.5m
https://worldsoccertalk.com/2013/05/20/the-premier-league-prize-money-table-see-how-many-millions-your-club-made/
so who in their right mind would speculate at least £100m in wages and transfers to earn an extra £1.5m....... that is how you bankrupt a club and that is exactly the mistake the likes of Stoke made and look at them now. its also why fans shouldn't run clubs.
I really do think that as fans we HAVE TO START appreciating our position in the football pyramid/world and be realistic. Yes I would love us to be huge, have millions and compete for titles, BUT IT WILL NEVER EVER HAPPEN unless we have a huge benefactor who sees us as his play toy and wants to rock the establishment.
However we are not in a fashionable part of the country, too foreign investors our name is not romantic enough etc etc, so the only way to grow and enjoy our club is to build things organically and appreciate our position. IMO that starts with a proper Director of Football who is in situ for at least 10 years and develops a DNA and a production line of quality players and excellent scouting system... Exactly like Southampton did with Les Reed and the way we used to use Dan Ashworth...
Now what I will definitely put at JPs door is that he was negligent in not replacing Ashworth with a like for like replacement..... but I cant have a go at him for not 'pushing on', not investing additional millions and nor can I have a go at him for accepting a ridiculously high offer from Lai. What would you do if on one hand you were offered £150-£200m from someone for the club, but on the other hand some fans are giving you grief for not spending and not really appreciating all the good work you have done to get the club into and established in the premier league...... I'd sell no question
Moving forward means buying better players than what we had… the defence and midfield were all getting on and needed evolution … Sharner was spot on when he commented on this … history says our level is in the premier
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Good job the crowd aren't in charge then. Especially since a fair few have called for Bilic to be sacked as reward for promotion, then called for Allardyce to be sacked and now want Ismael sacked. The track record of following the crowd and chopping & changing the manger every six months isn't a pretty one.
No one is asking for Billic to take charge. But this put a smile on many peoples faces. There was frustration and the board needs to hear change is required. I was on vals side, always about give him a chance. But I’ve changed after yesterday. His position is untenable. He’s a manager and he’s losing control now of all aspects. Hes not managing the situation. Its like nothing else matters other than 3-4-3.
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Ideally what should happen is that if individuals are going to quote posters or lift material from this forum then they should be referencing the forum as a source. Our rules are clear in that external individuals should obtain authorisation from this forum first.
We’ve had it before when journalists have tried taking content from the forum and at that point we usually close the forum to guests which then requires them to register.
OK thanks.
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Val Out I've Had enough of boring football tipped my day yesterday from being meh to absolutely rubbish. I'd normally back a manager ie give him more time but we looked worse yesterday than anything under TP. That was the single worst performance I've ever listened to from us. That was also the most toxic Hawthorns I've heard in a long while, If we keep him attendances will drop, the atmosphere will be even more toxic and it will soon become so bad we start protesting. Val Needs to go the first time I think Ive called for a manager to go. We will be lucky to stay in the top half let alone the Play offs. I was backing Val but after Yesterday he needs to go I can't see anyway of us improving
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Good job the crowd aren't in charge then. Especially since a fair few have called for Bilic to be sacked as reward for promotion, then called for Allardyce to be sacked and now want Ismael sacked. The track record of following the crowd and chopping & changing the manger every six months isn't a pretty one.
I can see what you’re doing but your anecdotal examples are a fair bit off.
Bilic had widespread support at the time of his sacking and there was a condemnation on this forum when he was sacked.
In a poll on this forum regarding Allardyce, 63% of this forum wanted him to remain as manager.
Again, not the wide spread calls for his dismissal as you claim..
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Seems odd that we'd stick with a 4 year plan now, even when it looks like it might mean a sustained stay in the Championship, yet we ditched Bilic pretty quickly and threw out his plan.
It would have seemed quite odd to have stuck with a manager clearly at loggerheads with his bosses as he entered the final phase of his contract. It would have been even odder to give him a contract extension, especially given how the players who loved him so much clearly took the sips given his relaxed leadership during lockdown. Sounds like someone in the news now I think about it.
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I can see what you’re doing but your anecdotal examples are a fair bit off.
Bilic had widespread support at the time of his sacking and there was a condemnation on this forum when he was sacked.
In a poll on this forum regarding Allardyce, 63% of this forum wanted him to remain as manager.
Again, not the wide spread calls for his dismissal as you claim..
I agree the majority of our fans are sensible but the more impatient minority are very loud on social media when things are not going well. The bigger point as Nathan set out well above is that sacking the manager every six months is a disastrous plan.
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Apparently VI has been given a stay of execution for the Millwall game.
Not sure I understand the logic of one game, can anybody explain?
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Apparently VI has been given a stay of execution for the Millwall game.
Not sure I understand the logic of one game, can anybody explain?
Your source for this is?
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Your source for this is?
Social Media
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Even if we fluke victory against Millwall we have Blackburn and Boro to come. Would take a miracle for him to make it to March.
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Even if we fluke victory against Millwall we have Blackburn and Boro to come. Would take a miracle for him to make it to March.
Which is all the more reason why he should not get the Millwall game, we need someone in either on a temporary basis or perm to restructure the team. It is never going to happen under Ismael
Mozza could do the job short term until we get the right man
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Was just musing if the board don’t sack him would that pull some of the shop stewards in the dressing room back into line ?
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I don’t think there’s any way he’s going to get the sack any time soon given the length of his contract, the compensation already spent on getting him here, and the fact the any new manager will still be stuck with the exact same bunch of players for the remainder of the season.
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I don’t think there’s any way he’s going to get the sack any time soon given the length of his contract, the compensation already spent on getting him here, and the fact the any new manager will still be stuck with the exact same bunch of players for the remainder of the season.
Plus, we are not a very attractive proposition ar the moment
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I don’t think there’s any way he’s going to get the sack any time soon given the length of his contract, the compensation already spent on getting him here, and the fact the any new manager will still be stuck with the exact same bunch of players for the remainder of the season.
Well, somebody, with alleged reliable connections to the club, had said on here that there was an emergency board meeting today & that VI was about to be sacked. He was very confident that an announcement would be made today.
If that information was correct, then it looks as though he's had a stay of execution.
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Well, somebody, with alleged reliable connections to the club, had said on here that there was an emergency board meeting today & that VI was about to be sacked. He was very confident that an announcement would be made today.
If that information was correct, then it looks as though he's had a stay of execution.
Precisely, IF that information was correct. The same poster told us this morning "Have it on decent authority he has been sacked".
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Precisely, IF that information was correct. The same poster told us this morning "Have it on decent authority he has been sacked".
I'm always skeptical about alleged in the know people, but this same poster was correct about Johnstone not playing.
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Chris Lepkowski just tweeted in response to why Val hasn’t been sacked already
Think the proximity of the games is a big factor. Travel to London tomorrow. Recovery and start of prep today. Had the games not been so close (not to mention the week off afterwards) I think they'd have acted after pne
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It’s exactly like when Sam was appointed. They’ll be sounding out targets now and when they think they’ve found one he’ll be called in. Play like we did against pne and milwall could easily cause us trouble. Thank god it’s away.
As for the 2 games after that I really don’t want Val and his tactical nous taking us into those, he’ll be embarrassed.
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Moving forward means buying better players than what we had… the defence and midfield were all getting on and needed evolution … Sharner was spot on when he commented on this … history says our level is in the premier
I’m not saying we don’t historically belong in the premier nor am I saying we shouldn’t evolve the squad, but history also shows us that many clubs have tried to just throw money at it and very very rarely does it end well for a club our size, and their simply is no reward financially unless you get into the champions league. What a club our size need to do is be clever and look at building in a more organic and sustainable way.
My point is valid that just because we as fans want to see big transfer fees and wages doesn’t mean we should do it and in fact as a club if we did this it would end up with financial ruin, so we need to box clever.
As sad as it is, that is the reality of a club our size.
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Why keep the toxic atmosphere and players that wont play for him, surely get a caretaker in to avoid the poor atmosphere and that the players might just play for. Keeping him on for another game just doesnt make any sense unless he is staying for several more games.
The only rationale I can think of for keeping him for milwall is
They think automatic has gone, and whatever happens we should be ok after milwall with a new manager to keep us in the play offs….so by keeping Val now, SJ is inebriated enough to want out , because if he thinks there is a small chance that Val could stay…then he don’t play and no World Cup…
This is all conjecture and the only reason I can think of.
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I don’t think there’s any way he’s going to get the sack any time soon given the length of his contract, the compensation already spent on getting him here, and the fact the any new manager will still be stuck with the exact same bunch of players for the remainder of the season.
Lose to milwall 3-0
Lose to boro 5-0
Lose to sheff Utd 4-0
You think they wouldn’t sack him?
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So if a new manager were to come in, which untried players does he select? Because they have virtually all had a chance, unless Cleary is the player who would make all the difference. Even TGH, who many have been calling for, had a whole half yesterday, and he hardly made any difference. Before that people were calling for Mulumby to be given a chance, but he just looks like a younger, fitter version of Livermore. The fact is, these are the players a new manager has to work with, and they are no better than 5 or 6 other squads under Fulham.
I too think Val could experiment more with his 3-4-3 particularly by strengthening the central midfield, but its not quite so rigid as people make out. Diangana, for example yesterday, was playing more midfield than right wing, not that it helped us much because he kept getting knocked off the ball. But at the end of the day, most managers have their favoured system, which is what they would have sold to the board in accepting the job. Pulis also had his favoured system, not that I can remember many calls on here for him to change it.
If there is a group of unhappy players (and I wonder who exactly we're talking about here), do they have a clear tactical alternative? But isn't it for the manager to set out the tactics, or do we want a Yes man in charge? Whether you agree with the tactics or not, strong leadership from the front is what's needed, which VI is giving. Even Allardyce said that was specifically needed with this group. Anyway, players main reason for a moan is not being selected. (que SJ yesterday).
Personally, I only think we've reached the time for a change, if the board were aware of an exceptional manager out there with a very strong track record who was immediately available. In practice though, I fear it would be a hasty quick-fit from someone who has been tried and failed elsewhere, though probably able to do a good PR presentation at interview. Its a shame we can never seem to succeed in building any continuity at the club. Didn't Don Howe once say this was a very difficult club to manage?
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So if a new manager were to come in, which untried players does he select? Because they have virtually all had a chance, unless Cleary is the player who would make all the difference. Even TGH, who many have been calling for, had a whole half yesterday, and he hardly made any difference. Before that people were calling for Mulumby to be given a chance, but he just looks like a younger, fitter version of Livermore. The fact is, these are the players a new manager has to work with, and they are no better than 5 or 6 other squads under Fulham.
I too think Val could experiment more with his 3-4-3 particularly by strengthening the central midfield, but its not quite so rigid as people make out. Diangana, for example yesterday, was playing more midfield than right wing, not that it helped us much because he kept getting knocked off the ball. But at the end of the day, most managers have their favoured system, which is what they would have sold to the board in accepting the job. Pulis also had his favoured system, not that I can remember many calls on here for him to change it.
If there is a group of unhappy players (and I wonder who exactly we're talking about here), do they have a clear tactical alternative? But isn't it for the manager to set out the tactics, or do we want a Yes man in charge? Whether you agree with the tactics or not, strong leadership from the front is what's needed, which VI is giving. Even Allardyce said that was specifically needed with this group. Anyway, players main reason for a moan is not being selected. (que SJ yesterday).
Personally, I only think we've reached the time for a change, if the board were aware of an exceptional manager out there with a very strong track record who was immediately available. In practice though, I fear it would be a hasty quick-fit from someone who has been tried and failed elsewhere, though probably able to do a good PR presentation at interview. Its a shame we can never seem to succeed in building any continuity at the club. Didn't Don Howe once say this was a very difficult club to manage?
All players react differently to different coaches,just because there isn’t potentially an outstanding candidate does not mean we should stick with someone who has killed harmony/moral and extracts the enjoyment from the match day each game.
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Chris Lepkowski just tweeted in response to why Val hasn’t been sacked already
Think the proximity of the games is a big factor. Travel to London tomorrow. Recovery and start of prep today. Had the games not been so close (not to mention the week off afterwards) I think they'd have acted after pne
Given the frequency of matches in the Championship, that's a rubbish excuse. Going by that logic there would be very few windows in order to make a sacking "possible".
The board have bottled it.
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https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/28/nine-out-of-ten-west-brom-fans-want-valerien-ismael-sacked/
Not exactly popular.
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https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/28/nine-out-of-ten-west-brom-fans-want-valerien-ismael-sacked/
Not exactly popular.
And they say he’s fallen out with Johnstone with the reason why.
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Lose to milwall 3-0
Lose to boro 5-0
Lose to sheff Utd 4-0
You think they wouldn’t sack him?
Of course they would but that won’t happen so let’s see.
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I fully agree with your post alex1.
Ismael is shuffling the same pack, he isnt leaving anybody out with real quality, over the years we have had a game changer, going back to Koumas, Gera, Odemwingie, Barnes, Pereira, the only player we have remotely close to that now is Diangana and he has just started to show flashes after two years of poor form.
We had some very good footballers - Koren, Brunt, Morrison, Evans, Mulumbu, even Krovinovic carried and used the ball well, i had hoped Mowatt would be that sort of player but other than a couple of good goals i havent seen what he offers and he doesnt look fit.
I know Ismael style gets slated and rightly so at times but he brought Clarke in as a footballing centre half one side and he has brought Kipre in the other who despite being awful against Preston is probably as good on the ball as most which says a lot when he is a centre half.
Midfield needs to be assessed, i think there were hopes that this Castro was going to play a part but not sure whats happened there, Moloumby i think was a cheap gamble thats hasnt paid off yet and not sure it will.
I saw a clip yesterday showing our game v sheffield united and it was like watching a different team, nothing to do with opposition sussing us out or tactics, the intensity and desire from the players was like a different group, somebody said on there that the players not long after that started complaining they didnt like it as it was too hard!
I dont know how true that is but based on past experience it wouldnt surprise me, they have downed tools with last managers and Allardyce warned they would again, Barnsley didnt seem to find it too hard last year, and could you imagine Liverpool or Man City players, turning round to Klopp and Pep saying sorry that gegenpress and intensity is just too hard, we are not doing it anymore, they would be gone.
I hope Ismael is given the chance to get rid of those players and get his own type in, whether its him or somebody else the culture has to change of managers paying the price for the players, its happened too many times to be all the managers fault, for Ismael way to work you need a full buy in, if only half the players do it it just doesnt work but it would take time.
I would hope he gets some backing and can do some wheeling and dealing before monday and given a chance to stamp his authority, however if the board arent planning on that and are going to run with the squad we currently have then its probably best he goes, it does seem the board either have to back the manager or back the players.
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'Board Meeting' minutes from yesterday
Tell me why we shouldn't sack you? - Because you can't afford to
Do you want Andy Carroll, he's free and cheap - Oui
End of 'board meeting'
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If we're signing Andy Carroll, I can't see VI going just yet.
It will be interesting to see what he has to say today.
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Maybe there is some kind of break in his contract come the end of the season where any compensation is minimal on missing out on promotion. Seems strange that he hasnt gone yet with the fans all decided they don’t like what their seeing. Big Dave and Bilic went for a lot less
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I’m not saying we don’t historically belong in the premier nor am I saying we shouldn’t evolve the squad, but history also shows us that many clubs have tried to just throw money at it and very very rarely does it end well for a club our size, and their simply is no reward financially unless you get into the champions league. What a club our size need to do is be clever and look at building in a more organic and sustainable way.
My point is valid that just because we as fans want to see big transfer fees and wages doesn’t mean we should do it and in fact as a club if we did this it would end up with financial ruin, so we need to box clever.
As sad as it is, that is the reality of a club our size.
Sorry but I disagree since that time Brighton, wolves, Leicester, Palace, Brentford, Burnley, Fulham and Bournemouth have all overtaken us due to JP sitting on his hands waiting for his payday
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Moving forward means buying better players than what we had… the defence and midfield were all getting on and needed evolution … Sharner was spot on when he commented on this … history says our level is in the premier
Then History says that the Persians, The Romans, the Mongols and us should still have empires. times change, the West Midlands has declined in popularity and the financing of the game has totally changed.
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Nine out of ten West Brom fans want Valerien Ismael sacked
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/28/nine-out-of-ten-west-brom-fans-want-valerien-ismael-sacked/
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Nine out of ten West Brom fans want Valerien Ismael sacked
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/28/nine-out-of-ten-west-brom-fans-want-valerien-ismael-sacked/
There's always one! :D
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There's always one! :D
But who is he? 8)
He needs to own up
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Sorry but I disagree since that time Brighton, wolves, Leicester, Palace, Brentford, Burnley, Fulham and Bournemouth have all overtaken us due to JP sitting on his hands waiting for his payday
That's because money decides who "deserves" to sit in the greed league, history has nothing to do with it any more. :'(
Until we get an owner willing to spend their own cash, as have all of those mentioned, yo-yo is the best we can expect and every promotion and survival will be a tremendous achievement.
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But who is he? 8)
He needs to own up
the only votes for VI to stay were probably from the Albion board - they're the only ones who seem to think he should stay!
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Nine out of ten West Brom fans want Valerien Ismael sacked
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/28/nine-out-of-ten-west-brom-fans-want-valerien-ismael-sacked/
Yes. Not surprising.
It's not about performances for me nor even so much the results but he has to go for the overall good of the club.
I'm reliably informed that the actual number of fans who turned up for the Cardiff game was 17,000. Fans are leaving in their thousands. Wednesday night the atmosphere was toxic and if that doesn't tell the idiots running the club that Val has no chance at all of re-engaging the fans then I really don't know what to say.
If Val is still in charge the attendance at our next home game is going to be very, very low and looking further forward season ticket sales next season will be lower than any point since the 1990's.
This cannot be allowed to go on. The club is fractured and it needs to heal. Fans have to be enticed back and reunited with this great club. Val simply has to go now and we have to start repairing the damage.
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Yes. Not surprising.
It's not about performances for me nor even so much the results but he has to go for the overall good of the club.
I'm reliably informed that the actual number of fans who turned up for the Cardiff game was 17,000. Fans are leaving in their thousands. Wednesday night the atmosphere was toxic and if that doesn't tell the idiots running the club that Val has no chance at all of re-engaging the fans then I really don't know what to say.
If Val is still in charge the attendance at our next home game is going to be very, very low and looking further forward season ticket sales next season will be lower than any point since the 1990's.
This cannot be allowed to go on. The club is fractured and it needs to heal. Fans have to be enticed back and reunited with this great club. Val simply has to go now and we have to start repairing the damage.
Disagree with you, sacking the manager does not heal anything, just represents more short termism, more blind panic with no obvious plan and would be a continuous of the same trigger happy approach that is hurting the club.
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Is it Val or is it the players or both?
Can these players be mor effective in another system or are they all just that bad?
Just how hard can it be to train everyday for years to not be able to hit a target as big as a goal?
The most fantastic feeling playing for me was to score a goal, if a player is in a position to get sight of goal he must go for it, forget tippy tappy stuff, get Bomber into the training setup and show our am and forwards how to do it!
Stick with Val and reassess at end of season, by all means put pressure on him but not even a quarter through his contract we're still in the top 6 by the way, not bottom six.
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I wanted him to succeed when he was first appointed like the majority but our version of Valball is dire and for me his only tactic is to stick with it. Even when we win there is still a feeling of frustration that team should be doing better, still believe that we would have more joy if we played three in the middle of park but hey what do I know.
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Disagree with you, sacking the manager does not heal anything, just represents more short termism, more blind panic with no obvious plan and would be a continuous of the same trigger happy approach that is hurting the club.
A football club should exist for the fans mostly and arguably won't exist without them for very long especially without lots of TV money.
If 90% of the fans or a very high % want the manager gone, he won't last long even if a few board members don't agree with it.
Fans will vote with their voices and feet before too long ( they already are in a way I've not seen much in my life going up the Albion since the late 80s) .
VI is finished as far as I can see even if the board won't bring themselves to admit it yet
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Inherited a legend of a manager which he told the previous chairman to sack, Alan Irvine , Pepe Mel & pulls … as for players just Listen to what they say about him. I suggest your worship of him getting promoted doesn’t mention relegation
Now you see I dont get why you have to go down the route of saying I 'worship him' just to try and invalidate my opinion.
He also kept Megson on, the relegations were expected,we didnt have the money to compete. relegations and promotions, 9 year extended stay in the Prem, 13 years in total. you mention those managers but then fail to mention Ashworth, Hodgson, Mowbray, Di Matteo, Clarke. Pulis was bad, but he kept us in the Prem at least.
Just keep your replies respectful please. No need at all for what you aimed at me.
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Given the frequency of matches in the Championship, that's a rubbish excuse. Going by that logic there would be very few windows in order to make a sacking "possible".
The board have bottled it.
I have it on Very Very good authority that they are actively seeking / talking to potential new managers, and timing IS the key, they spoke with previous replacements before they pulled teh trigger on Big Dave, Bilic etc. There is massive discontent in the changing rooms to do with man management in terms of how you speak to people, respect for opinions and tactics.. the exact words "I was told were 'none of the players are enjoying it".
I agree with others I dont think it matters what the outcome of Saturday is … he is gone regardless, its just who comes in which is the sticking point. they want someone who can get the best out of what we have and doesn't cut off his nose just to make a point.
in summary if your going to Millwall then dont expect to see anything different from Wednesday
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That'a fine then. We should just worry about the paedophile ring running the United States and Big Pharma inventing Covid-19
Alternative universe: VI may have simply asked for permission to loan Carroll till teh end of the season and that was granted.
Not sure why you quoted me on this referencing Andy Carroll, my response was to a comment on sm that VI had one more game to save his job.
Also, I wouldn't dismiss sm out of hand, credit me with the intellect to tell the difference between unlikely & possible statements.
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Sorry but I disagree since that time Brighton, wolves, Leicester, Palace, Brentford, Burnley, Fulham and Bournemouth have all overtaken us due to JP sitting on his hands waiting for his payday
Every one of those have billionaire owners.....
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If Chris Lepkowski's comments are accurate, regarding Val not wanting Carroll and the decision was made and taken over his head, I don't see the relationship between the Board and him remaining sustainable for too much longer.
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Any news from his 11 o'clock presser yet?
Given his untenable position I'd expect a few of the journalists there to be pushing him ???
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Ebenezer put up no money to buy club some financial shenanigans which are probably legal but shouldn’t be helped him scarper off with £200 million in his back pocket. And while in charge handsomely rewarded himself by being the highest paid chairman in premiership while club was the 20th in spending on transfer fees. So called Albion fan don’t make me laugh.
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In today's presser currently happening he's confirmed Andy Carroll has passed his medical and as for himself he said he must bring a better game plan and see a better identity for the team.
Holy moly is he going to change something??!!
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Not sure why you quoted me on this referencing Andy Carroll, my response was to a comment on sm that VI had one more game to save his job.
Also, I wouldn't dismiss sm out of hand, credit me with the intellect to tell the difference between unlikely & possible statements.
Credited sorry - my comments were directed more generally towards social media and I picked up wrong quote.
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Val's admitted he has got his game plan wrong now as well. Who is this new Val??
I literally can't tell if it's just more good talking from him and he's going 3 4 3 with his faves again tommorow or we might see changes
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Val's admitted he has got his game plan wrong now as well. Who is this new Val??
I literally can't tell if it's just more good talking from him and he's going 3 4 3 with his faves again tommorow or we might see changes
Got it wrong? It was the same game plan as every other match we have gone into this season...
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Got it wrong? It was the same game plan as every other match we have gone into this season...
Yes but it finally sounds like after nearly 30 games he's started to look at himself instead of blaming everyone else.
Too little too late for me now though.
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Val's admitted he has got his game plan wrong now as well. Who is this new Val??
I literally can't tell if it's just more good talking from him and he's going 3 4 3 with his faves again tommorow or we might see changes
if he wants to appease the fans 4 3 3 with player’s playing in their natural position’s and Furlong, Livermore, Reach, Bartley and Phillips dropped.
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Interesting to hear Vals presser , admitted to being bored himself .
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Ismael does need to have other plans and options but it seems again he will carry the can for the players like others before him.
Where is the effort and intensity from the start of the season? When things got tough the poor little lambs said it was too hard and stopped doing it.
They supposedly dont like his management, they liked Bilic and he trusted them, they repaid him by coming back not as fit as they should of been and never caught up thus resulting in him getting the sack, and thats how they treat managers they like!
Big Sam gave them a rocket and they sulked to start with, it was only when he was allowed to freshen things up some of their attitudes changed.
Many of them are overpaid spoilt tossers, whether its Ismael or someone else they have to be moved on.
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Ismael does need to have other plans and options but it seems again he will carry the can for the players like others before him.
Where is the effort and intensity from the start of the season? When things got tough the poor little lambs said it was too hard and stopped doing it.
They supposedly dont like his management, they liked Bilic and he trusted them, they repaid him by coming back not as fit as they should of been and never caught up thus resulting in him getting the sack, and thats how they treat managers they like!
Big Sam gave them a rocket and they sulked to start with, it was only when he was allowed to freshen things up some of their attitudes changed.
Many of them are overpaid spoilt tossers, whether its Ismael or someone else they have to be moved on.
if Albion was a reality TV show it would be Hoarders buried a live with pooh.
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Interesting to hear Vals presser , admitted to being bored himself .
Where did you hear it?
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Where did you hear it?
Joe Chapman on twitter as it happened mate .
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Now he knows how we feel.
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I've just read the interview online. Very honest and open. Took responsibly for Wednesday and suggested his game plan was over complicated.
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Cheers Dexy.
This from Madeley suggests we may go back to what we saw at the beginning of the season:
But he said the game had given him clarity. Said he got the "gameplan" wrong and now wanted his team to get back to his core principles of energy and intensity. Said he wants to pin opponents back and make his team "horrible" to play against again. #WBA
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Cheers Dexy.
This from Madeley suggests we may go back to what we saw at the beginning of the season:
But he said the game had given him clarity. Said he got the "gameplan" wrong and now wanted his team to get back to his core principles of energy and intensity. Said he wants to pin opponents back and make his team "horrible" to play against again. #WBA
Willl be interesting to see what happens tommorow.
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Cheers Dexy.
This from Madeley suggests we may go back to what we saw at the beginning of the season:
But he said the game had given him clarity. Said he got the "gameplan" wrong and now wanted his team to get back to his core principles of energy and intensity. Said he wants to pin opponents back and make his team "horrible" to play against again. #WBA
"Energy and Intensity". First move = drop Livermore.
Otherwise Carroll's signing counts for little.
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If you haven't already, I'd encourage you to go on Chapman's twitter account and read the live blog. Some really good quotes from Ismael, unusually honest.
Basically admitted that he needs to change his approach, that he has overloaded the players with instructions and that he needs to scale that back again. He has for the first time seemed to admit he has been getting it wrong.
Words are easy, but it would be nice to see a change of approach on Saturday. If he is being genuine (and it's a great press conference), then nabbed we will see some changes tomorrow.
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It's interesting because it seemed like he had abandoned the high press / high intensity football. I personally don't like his style of play but he seemed to stick with the system 3-4-3 but not what got him results at Barnsley...
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I've just read the interview online. Very honest and open. Took responsibly for Wednesday and suggested his game plan was over complicated.
Didn't realise he had a game plan. Surely hoofing the ball upfield is not that complicated to understand. :D
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Nice to hear him say what everyone with a brain has been saying for months but I still don’t think he’ll claw back the crowd and players, would love to be proved wrong but his stubbornness tells me he’s already done too much damage.
As for what he is doing, it’s not complicated, it just doesn’t work when the opposition don’t play a certain way.
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He says in his press conference that Dike was the final piece of the jigsaw. Granted a good striker would improve us but he's deluded if he thinks it will solve our issues.
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Disagree with you, sacking the manager does not heal anything, just represents more short termism, more blind panic with no obvious plan and would be a continuous of the same trigger happy approach that is hurting the club.
At which point and for what would you advocate putting him on the dole ?
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If you haven't already, I'd encourage you to go on Chapman's twitter account and read the live blog. Some really good quotes from Ismael, unusually honest.
Basically admitted that he needs to change his approach, that he has overloaded the players with instructions and that he needs to scale that back again. He has for the first time seemed to admit he has been getting it wrong.
Words are easy, but it would be nice to see a change of approach on Saturday. If he is being genuine (and it's a great press conference), then nabbed we will see some changes tomorrow.
Yes, often Val's words and deeds are very far apart, proof will be in the pudding tomorrow. We simply have to see changes and not just shuffling the player pack.
Sounds like a ray of hope though, at least. I can't see the full thing as not on Twitter, anything else of note?
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Cheers Dexy.
This from Madeley suggests we may go back to what we saw at the beginning of the season:
But he said the game had given him clarity. Said he got the "gameplan" wrong and now wanted his team to get back to his core principles of energy and intensity. Said he wants to pin opponents back and make his team "horrible" to play against again. #WBA
Instead of horrible to watch.
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He says in his press conference that Dike was the final piece of the jigsaw. Granted a good striker would improve us but he's deluded if he thinks it will solve our issues.
Dike final piece of the jigsaw, but with a central midfield that possesses no skill, passing ability, no ball carrying ability.
I am very disappointed in Ismael and his limitations.
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I've just read the interview online. Very honest and open. Took responsibly for Wednesday and suggested his game plan was over complicated.
Begs the question as to why he didn't use the subs to change it at 1-0?
Again, it seems like he's talking well but, sooner or later, it has to translate into actions. Fingers crossed Wednesday was a true watershed.
What I wouldn't give to see a high press, high intensity demolition of Millwall.
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We've run out of time for words, we need him to take action. That means dropping his favourite.
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Didn't realise he had a game plan. Surely hoofing the ball upfield is not that complicated to understand. :D
Hot off the press. 'Valerien Ismael says the players are stupid as well as lazy and of a lower quality than he expected ' ....... someone's bound to suggest it at some point, thought I'd be the first ;D .
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We've run out of time for words, we need him to take action. That means dropping his favourite.
I have no interest any more in what he has to say. He has had months working with the players and just look at the performances and results he’s delivering,, culminating in a horror show on Wednesday night. Possibly the worst performance in more than 20 years.
He needs actions on the pitch but he’s been in need of those for the best part of four months, not just for one game on Saturday. Why is it suddenly going to be different?
I look at the evidence: the trends in performance and results, the discipline of the players (and the coach himself) and the man-management. They are all remorselessly negative.
He doesn’t have a great squad to work with, but he’s been busy making it perform worse and worse. Good coaches don’t do that.
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Begs the question as to why he didn't use the subs to change it at 1-0?
Again, it seems like he's talking well but, sooner or later, it has to translate into actions. Fingers crossed Wednesday was a true watershed.
What I wouldn't give to see a high press, high intensity demolition of Millwall.
The proof of the pudding will be in the eating I suppose.
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I have no interest any more in what he has to say. He has had months working with the players and just look at the performances and results he’s delivering,, culminating in a horror show on Wednesday night. Possibly the worst performance in more than 20 years.
He needs actions on the pitch but he’s been in need of those for the best part of four months, not just for one game on Saturday. Why is it suddenly going to be different?
I look at the evidence: the trends in performance and results, the discipline of the players (and the coach himself) and the man-management. They are all remorselessly negative.
He doesn’t have a great squad to work with, but he’s been busy making it perform worse and worse. Good coaches don’t do that.
Can’t argue. Be amazed if anything changes.
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His words are one thing but the team have been playing in a brutal, ugly one dimensional way for a long time now. It's baffling how bad we've become really - especially considering his comments that's he's made things complicated!!
We have no midfield, no fluidity in open play just aimless punts up front. Lackluster closing down and many players seeming to be going through the motions most games. It's the opposite of complicated. I've seen very little pattern to our play when in or out of possession.
Results have been bottom half of the table for around 12 to 15 games now so the fans reaction has been building to this.
He seems to be under the illusion that Dike was the missing link when there's way more wrong with this team than one striker will solve. I just don't think he has enough about him at this level to build and coach a team successfully.
Maybe he's not likeable , maybe he's not a good communicator, maybe he doesn't have the humility to know when his approach isn't working, maybe he doesn't have the ability, maybe he's obsessed with XG stats when the pitch, players and fan's reaction tells us everything we need to know?
He's had his chance and I've seen enough as far as I'm concerned
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Is it Val or is it the players or both?
Can these players be mor effective in another system or are they all just that bad?
Just how hard can it be to train everyday for years to not be able to hit a target as big as a goal?
The most fantastic feeling playing for me was to score a goal, if a player is in a position to get sight of goal he must go for it, forget tippy tappy stuff, get Bomber into the training setup and show our am and forwards how to do it!
Stick with Val and reassess at end of season, by all means put pressure on him but not even a quarter through his contract we're still in the top 6 by the way, not bottom six.
I expect us to finish in the play offs, haven’t changed my mind on that.
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For Albion to qualify for the play offs, there needs to be a huge uplift in performance in last 3 months.
To be honest, I have 90% given up on this season.
The same selections at 2pm tomorrow, mean last shred of positivity will diminish.
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For Albion to qualify for the play offs, there needs to be a huge uplift in performance in last 3 months.
To be honest, I have 90% given up on this season.
The same selections at 2pm tomorrow, mean last shred of positivity will diminish.
He’ll be gone either way in a few weeks. Hope will return.
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For Albion to qualify for the play offs, there needs to be a huge uplift in performance in last 3 months.
To be honest, I have 90% given up on this season.
The same selections at 2pm tomorrow, mean last shred of positivity will diminish.
Never mind.
There's always the unveiling of Steve Bruce to look forward to ;D .
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Never mind.
There's always the unveiling of Steve Bruce to look forward to ;D .
I take no pleasure in Managers losing jobs. I don't want Bruce anyway. And I appreciate an incoming Manager might retain the status quo.
No one can possibly say we have made best possible use of resources this season.
And that is why we have floundered massively in the last 12 games.
Certain players have been found out, but there is no learning process whatsoever.
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IF we can get him on the same terms as Andy Carroll Jack Wilshere could be a good shout.
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He’ll be gone either way in a few weeks. Hope will return.
Dont kid yourself. He ay goooin nowear. Just been given a new lump to play up front until Dike comes back.
If he was going would have been the morning after the Preston debacle. Would appear the board has got his back for this year at least.
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The only reason he is staying is that it will cost a lump of cash to get rid of him and his backroom staff. If we had a half decent owner a new manager would have been in post by now.
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The only reason he is staying is that it will cost a lump of cash to get rid of him and his backroom staff. If we had a half decent owner a new manager would have been in post by now.
If we had a hlaf decent owner, we would have had Wilder as manager and be higher up the league !
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I take no pleasure in Managers losing jobs. I don't want Bruce anyway. And I appreciate an incoming Manager might retain the status quo.
No one can possibly say we have made best possible use of resources this season.
And that is why we have floundered massively in the last 12 games.
Certain players have been found out, but there is no learning process whatsoever.
There are 18 games to go, anyone would think from reading these comments that the season ended in midweek with us finishing 14th. Expecting the club to make the best possible use of resources this season, to get everything right, isn't being realistic anyway. We should make the top six and have a decent fist of winning the play offs.
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Been looking at some of the fan forums on Facebook and it's hilarious. He was supposed to be sacked after the Preston game. Now these same people have claimed he's is in charge of the Millwall game but will be sacked regardless of the result :D
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Been looking at some of the fan forums on Facebook and it's hilarious. He was supposed to be sacked after the Preston game. Now these same people have claimed he's is in charge of the Millwall game but will be sacked regardless of the result :D
Even better, yesterday we had a poster claiming he had already been sacked. If you insist the manager is getting sacked every week, eventually like a broken clock you will get it right.
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Dont kid yourself. He ay goooin nowear. Just been given a new lump to play up front until Dike comes back.
If he was going would have been the morning after the Preston debacle. Would appear the board has got his back for this year at least.
Honestly I think he’s been told he’s a goner unless things massively turn around. As much as I want us to win I just don’t see him turning it around in the slightest. He’s lost the players and they are the only ones who can save his ass. Not happening.
The club will be sounding out people now for the inevitable sacking of Val in the next few weeks.
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Honestly I think he’s been told he’s a goner unless things massively turn around. As much as I want us to win I just don’t see him turning it around in the slightest. He’s lost the players and they are the only ones who can save his ass. Not happening.
The club will be sounding out people now for the inevitable sacking of Val in the next few weeks.
No ifs, buts or maybes with that declaration of unsupported and unsourced gossip. Thanks for confirming that breaking news. Somebody should tell all the local journalists and Percy so they can report it.
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There are 18 games to go, anyone would think from reading these comments that the season ended in midweek with us finishing 14th. Expecting the club to make the best possible use of resources this season, to get everything right, isn't being realistic anyway. We should make the top six and have a decent fist of winning the play offs.
I know you're not an advocator of Livermore, so surprised your glass is still half full, when the Manager sees him an integral part of his plans.
Furthermore, Ismael is supposed to be implementing a pressing style. If you scoured the whole Championship, the last midfielder you'd pick for that role is Livermore.
So the Manager has seemingly abandoned his principles to shoehorn in someone woefully inadequate.
Promotion is a pipe dream unless he wakes up and changes.
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If we had a hlaf decent owner, we would have had Wilder as manager and be higher up the league !
Are you for sure? The idea that we would absolutely be better than 5th with another manager is a big assumption imo
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I know you're not an advocator of Livermore, so surprised your glass is still half full, when the Manager sees him an integral part of his plans.
Furthermore, Ismael is supposed to be implementing a pressing style. If you scoured the whole Championship, the last midfielder you'd pick for that role is Livermore.
So the Manager has seemingly abandoned his principles to shoehorn in someone woefully inadequate.
Promotion is a pipe dream unless he wakes up and changes.
Correct, I think Livermore is generally useless and like everybody else I would have liked us to have played better and picked up more points over December & January. But I do not consider finishing in the top six as a pipe dream, we have never dropped out of the top six. Nor do I see the changing of the coaching staff in January / February as the answer to our prayers. Essentially, I am more patient than most of our fans and prepared to zoom out a little. The manager only got the job in the summer, and top six is fine by me this season. The idea of sacking the manager every time we have a poor run of form over a 46 game season is stupid IMV. We would end up to with 2/3 managers every season.
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Are you for sure? The idea that we would absolutely be better than 5th with another manager is a big assumption imo
Exactly, no evidence for it at all and yet everyone calling for him to be sacked assumes it is a given. For all we know, sacking the manager at this point of the season could lead us to fall back even further. Bring in yet another manager who has completely different style so the players a) have to do something completely different again, b) no transfer window at all to change the squad and c) the players learn they get to see off yet another manager.
In general you want the manager to have 2/3 summer windows to mould the squad and authority to manage for the longer term good of the club, not deciding every run of 10 matches or so to keep changing things. It's a ridiculous was to run a football club. When we went for a young ambitious manager in the summer and gave him a 4 year contract we gave the signal the board were learning lessons from this hire them and fire them short termism culture that had failed the club completely, so I hope they stick with that sentiment. Also, I think the board should be judging the manager and team over 46 games, not 28. The time to stand back and decide the best way forward is the summer; not February.
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Even better, yesterday we had a poster claiming he had already been sacked. If you insist the manager is getting sacked every week, eventually like a broken clock you will get it right.
I think you're referring to a member of this forum who was passing on something he'd been told by a (normally reliable) contact within the club.
IMO, he passed the information on in good faith, he has also passed on information which turned out to be correct.
I'm not sure that information passed on in good faith deserves a cynical response.
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I think you're referring to a member of this forum who was passing on something he'd been told by a (normally reliable) contact within the club.
IMO, he passed the information on in good faith, he has also passed on information which turned out to be correct.
I'm not sure that information passed on in good faith deserves a cynical response.
To be fair the same poster claimed that Wilder got the job in the summer.
OK, there are variants and issues we're not privy to but at the end of the day two MAJOR announcements were proved incorrect. That is unquestionable and factual.
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I think you're referring to a member of this forum who was passing on something he'd been told by a (normally reliable) contact within the club.
IMO, he passed the information on in good faith, he has also passed on information which turned out to be correct.
I'm not sure that information passed on in good faith deserves a cynical response.
Agreed, said poster has been very reliable and genuine on this forum! Glad he posts here to be fair!
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I think you're referring to a member of this forum who was passing on something he'd been told by a (normally reliable) contact within the club.
IMO, he passed the information on in good faith, he has also passed on information which turned out to be correct.
I'm not sure that information passed on in good faith deserves a cynical response.
I think the contact within the club had been told that Val was being called into an extraordinary board meeting and may have jumped the gun a little. The meeting part was undoubtedly correct but the outcome was plus one Andy Carroll rather than minus one Valerian Ismael.
Of course, there may have been a discussion over Val's future as well, but he came out on top.
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Even better, yesterday we had a poster claiming he had already been sacked. If you insist the manager is getting sacked every week, eventually like a broken clock you will get it right.
Most local journalists have for the last 24 hours been talking in tones as if his job is now under serious consideration. The fact they found it necessary to report late into the afternoon that he would in fact be doing the Milwall press conference tells you there are whispers behind the scenes. There have also been a few leaks from other posters not talking about his sacking that suggest things have gone on behind the scenes and these similar themes have been covered by Madeley and Lepkowski. It seems, as you would expect, that we aren't far off a decision being made so I wouldn't get too sniffy about people sharing what they have heard.
It has felt for 12 months now that your general posting style is looking down on other posters and fans.
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Every manager is under threat, with a few exceptions.
It would be unrealistic to think otherwise
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Every manager is under threat, with a few exceptions.
It would be unrealistic to think otherwise
Val won't last long now I absolutely guarantee it you can take it to the bank. He won't last the season, no way.
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Val won't last long now I absolutely guarantee it you can take it to the bank. He won't last the season, no way.
I think there's a chance you've posted this 24 hours too early.
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For me, he’s here so we look to tomorrow. He’s made a statement that he’s had an epiphany and is going to ring the changes. If he does and it works, then water under the bridge and we move forward together. Some will, no doubt call me fickle but, as ever, I just want us to win the next game.don’t we all?
COYB
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For me, he’s here so we look to tomorrow. He’s made a statement that he’s had an epiphany and is going to ring the changes. If he does and it works, then water under the bridge and we move forward together. Some will, no doubt call me fickle but, as ever, I just want us to win the next game.don’t we all?
COYB
The way I read it, he's absolutely not going to ring the changes, h's going to revert to the high intensity, high press tactic.
Seems to me he's tried to accommodate the players & nearly got the sack, probably thinking "If I'm getting the sack, I'm doing it my way"
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The way I read it, he's absolutely not going to ring the changes, h's going to revert to the high intensity, high press tactic.
Seems to me he's tried to accommodate the players & nearly got the sack, probably thinking "If I'm getting the sack, I'm doing it my way"
He will definitely ring the changes, whether it be personnel, formation (unlikely) or simply the way he communicates to the players regarding the way they approach the game.
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I honestly have no idea what his statements today mean.
The most likely in my mind is a return to the press, I wasn't sure if it was a conscious decision for why we have stepped off the pressing game but there are hints from today's conference that it was something we had chosen to do.
"My game plan is intensity, action energy, and we missed everything. That game has taught me to go back to my DNA. It taught me very well.That is why I woke up with good energy this morning. We have found the solution. We have spoken to the players."
If it returns in a meaningful way I will be happy as that was a big selling point in the summer. The Liquidator podcast and I believe Steve Madeleyhave both made the point that the drop off from the pressing game, while still retaining the same team structure has at times left his gameplan in a bit of a halfnway in, half way out no man's land, which feels like a fair summary. I'd love to see a return to a higher octane style tomorrow.
There are other possibilities however. It's possible we will finally see a tweaking of the formation away from the rudimentary 3 attackers, lots of defensive players set up, maybe we will see the 3 midfielders I've craved. It coilfnaal ojust mean he is going full Barnsley and smashing balls up to Andy Carroll to try to win flicks ons. Or it could just be his way of saying I'm doubling down on the style he has been implementing, he's just going to push it harder on the training ground.
Hopefully it's one of the first 2 rather than the last 2.
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Brutally honest interview refreshing from previous soundbites. I hope he has realized he needs to go back to actual valball and not this turgid stuff we have played the last 18 or so games.
I do want him to be successful we need a long term project we are still in transition. He fired me up for the game anyway. Come on you baggies
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Val won't last long now I absolutely guarantee it you can take it to the bank. He won't last the season, no way.
Unless your secretly Guochuan Lai your not in a position to guarantee anything.
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Brutally honest interview refreshing from previous soundbites. I hope he has realized he needs to go back to actual valball and not this turgid stuff we have played the last 18 or so games.
I do want him to be successful we need a long term project we are still in transition. He fired me up for the game anyway. Come on you baggies
What worries me is what we are in transition to? We certainly don’t seem to be heading anywhere positive at the moment.
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What worries me is what we are in transition to? We certainly don’t seem to be heading anywhere positive at the moment.
Progress is very rarely a straight line.
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Correct, I think Livermore is generally useless and like everybody else I would have liked us to have played better and picked up more points over December & January. But I do not consider finishing in the top six as a pipe dream, we have never dropped out of the top six. Nor do I see the changing of the coaching staff in January / February as the answer to our prayers. Essentially, I am more patient than most of our fans and prepared to zoom out a little. The manager only got the job in the summer, and top six is fine by me this season. The idea of sacking the manager every time we have a poor run of form over a 46 game season is stupid IMV. We would end up to with 2/3 managers every season.
I agree with your sentiments about time and patience around Managers and stopping a hire and fire culture.
However, the way the season has panned out is alarming. I thought we had landed on our feet at the start (with the 4-0 v Sheff U the standout).
There was unavailability at the start too (Molumby settling in), Gardner Hickman yet to be unearthed, Snodgrass injured etc.
As time wore on I expected the starting 11 to naturally evolve and for Ismael to find his best team.
I first became alarmed when we swept aside Bristol C, late Oct, when using Snodgrass & Molumby. Only for him to go back to Livermore and freeze out Snodgrass.
A rot set in during Nov with only 1 narrow win versus lowly Hull.
The tipping point for me was Coventry away early Dec. Which is comfortably the best performance in last 3 months. Following this the excellent Gardner Hickman was inexicqbly dropped for Livermore.
We have never found the same level again. It is nearly 2 months since that victory.
Right now there are grave concerns about Ismael's competence. How long do you give him to show any signs of learning?
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Furthermore, I would say all things being equal, analysing last Weds v Preston, it was the worst performance since losing at Halifax in 1994 FA Cup.
The reason: bad defeats in the mid to late 90s were against a backdrop of WBA being skint.
I admit you could make a case for 1-5 v Crewe, 1999 trumping it!
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Furthermore, I would say all things being equal, analysing last Weds v Preston, it was the worst performance since losing at Halifax in 1994 FA Cup.
The reason: bad defeats in the mid to late 90s were against a backdrop of WBA being skint.
I admit you could make a case for 1-5 v Crewe, 1999 trumping it!
I didn’t see the game in midweek but seems to be unanimous opinion that our performance was dreadful. I remember all to well the 5-1 Crewe defeat, fans fighting with each other in the Birmingham Road and somebody from Halfords ran into the dug out and threw his season ticket book at Dennis Smith. In those days no internet forum to sound out on. That really was a crazy game. I hope tomorrow Val reverts to TGH and Mowatt in central midfield but who knows, Millwall away, unlikely to be a footballing classic. To answer your point above re how long do you give Val, this season at a minimum, then review in the summer. I still expect us to make the top six.
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To be fair the same poster claimed that Wilder got the job in the summer.
OK, there are variants and issues we're not privy to but at the end of the day two MAJOR announcements were proved incorrect. That is unquestionable and factual.
That is excatly why people that genuinely hear things dont bother passing on information anymore as it's a thankless exercise.
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That is excatly why people that genuinely hear things dont bother passing on information anymore as it's a thankless exercise.
Yep. By all accounts Wilder's pen was almost touching the dotted line when Lai pulled the plug and gave Dowling the heave ho instead. I have no doubt that the point where the info was passed on it was correct.
I'm personally gratefull for the little nuggets of ITK info, even if they are sometimes wide of the mark. But then I'm bored working from home so anything to distract is very much appreciated.
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That is excatly why people that genuinely hear things dont bother passing on information anymore as it's a thankless exercise.
Bakery face has also got A LOT of things correct and in fairness there probably was a meeting and pretty much any body would have made an assumption that it was it for Val come the morning after, including potential sources.
Give the man a break. Obviously not directed at you Baggie79 just quoting that to make it clear what I’m talking about.
I’m anxious today to see what he does with the 11, the style and the formation. If the style works then the formation won’t matter.
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I was as vociferous as anyone on here against Val on Wednesday. However, new match day and we go again. All the best to Val and the boys for this afternoon.
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Bakery face has also got A LOT of things correct and in fairness there probably was a meeting and pretty much any body would have made an assumption that it was it for Val come the morning after, including potential sources.
Give the man a break. Obviously not directed at you Baggie79 just quoting that to make it clear what I’m talking about.
I’m anxious today to see what he does with the 11, the style and the formation. If the style works then the formation won’t matter.
I agree with you, all you need to do is read his posts to see how accurate he has been. In respect of Wilder the bookies had him 5/1 on just before the plug was pulled by our esteemed leader at the very last moment.
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Just go now and take Livermore with you
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Just go now and take Livermore with you
He can't he's given him a new deal.
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Yes and that idiot triggered it
That's what i'm saying. Nightmare.
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Best if we limp to 60 pts and this Manager is left royally embarraased in May.
Wins justify this buffoons existence in the job
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Progress is very rarely a straight line.
Err..this is a very straight line John.
Downwards.
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Best if we limp to 60 pts and this Manager is left royally embarraased in May.
Wins justify this buffoons existence in the job
No danger of this bloke winning anything mate
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I guess that’s it. Said the right things in the press conference before the game but they were just words. Same formation. Same approach. Same result.
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Go to go this evening. The predictability behind this is tiresome.
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He had one last chance today and blew it.
Just couldn't bring himself to drop Livermore and change formation
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He is incompatible with this squad on a massive level.
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Absolutely embarrassing. The guy is an utter clown. Should be sacked immediately and surely will never work again.
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He had one last chance today and blew it.
Just couldn't bring himself to drop Livermore and change formation
Yes I think he has been his own demise. Stubborn to the point of refusing to change knowing it was last chance saloon. Deluded.
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Absolutely embarrassing. The guy is an utter clown. Should be sacked immediately and surely will never work again.
He has been exposed massively. Don't see a good future for him unless he goes somewhere that can buy the niche players he needs.
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I don’t know about incompatible , he’s incompetent, awful awful so called coach please put him and us out of our misery tonight . Embarrassing
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He had one last chance today and blew it.
Just couldn't bring himself to drop Livermore and change formation
Unbelievable that, yet again, everything is Livermore’s fault. Dear oh dear.
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He has been exposed massively. Don't see a good future for him unless he goes somewhere that can buy the niche players he needs.
I’m not sure what he could say to his next employer about his time at the Albion.
I can’t think of a single positive to point to. Not one.
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There must be a break clause in his contract....surely?
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The worst manager i've come across up here. Others were equally clueless but at least they tried to change things.
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He HAS to go. Now.
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Called it from day one and proven absolutely right, a clueless clown of a manager, he worst we’ve had, Sunday league teams wouldn’t have him.
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I’m not sure what he could say to his next employer about his time at the Albion.
I can’t think of a single positive to point to. Not one.
He has no excuse. He will find one though. That's VI too a tee.
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Time for the bed sheets
We have no game for 11 days
Time to ramp up the pressure and let the Board know this will not be accepted
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Unbelievable that, yet again, everything is Livermore’s fault. Dear oh dear.
If you can see Livermore is league one standard at best then god help you in terns of football knowledge
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Unbelievable that, yet again, everything is Livermore’s fault. Dear oh dear.
Livermore, Townsend, Furlong, Phillips, Grant, Grady don’t suit this style. There are a lot of under-performers out there. Partly Val’s system but they need to look at themselves too.
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He had one last chance today and blew it.
Just couldn't bring himself to drop Livermore and change formation
So if he dropped Livermore we would be winning?
Don’t make me laugh.....
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So if he dropped Livermore we would be winning?
Don’t make me laugh.....
Truth is we don’t have a player at the club who can play that role.
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Livermore is the worst culprit he is 32 and getting worse the MAIN problem
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He has shown today that words are cheap.
Well, that and the fact the players just didn't buy into his increasingly rudimentary methods.
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Livermore is the worst culprit he is 32 and getting worse the MAIN problem
No it’s not Greg, the whole team is a shocker and that is mainly in the managers court
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Surely the last seconds of a truly miserable time at the club.
It feels like the last days of Bobby Gould.
We aren’t is as much of a mess as we were then, but we could easily get there the way this has been going for a while.
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There isnt no way back for Ismael now and its time to go.
I really didnt want us to sack another manager and these players see off another manager but its now too toxic and the players clearly have given up (again)
I have always supported whoever pulls on the shirt, i can accept if somebody isnt good enough as long as they try their best, however a lot of these wasters have got their way, downed tools and got another manager sacked, they are a bunch of (i cant say the word i want to say) and i dont think they deserve any support.
They have had too many chances and are just rotters, whoever comes in has to get rid of them but probably has to do so playing football so we dont have another similar situation.
Time for Val to go but i despite a number of our players.
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Sack him tonight please. A shambles.
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That has to be it, surely. The board made yet another horlicks in appointing him and it costing us so much to appoint him and now to dismiss him.
Have this shower got anything right since taking over the club?
We are an utter mess
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French Bobby Gould .
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Corner flag image imminent.
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Like I said the other day the club is fractured and the manager simply has to go. There is no if or but.
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The whole lot from top to bottom need to go. Since Peace sold up it has gone south very fast
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That has to be it, surely. The board made yet another horlicks in appointing him and it costing us so much to appoint him and now to dismiss him.
Have this shower got anything right since taking over the club?
We are an utter mess
Easy to blame the bOard in hindsight, but I can still understand why the board did it last summer. It hasn’t worked though
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The whole lot from top to bottom need to go. Since Peace sold up it has gone south very fast
What Peace built in 15 years or so Lai has destroyed in 5.
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Easily the worse manager in the last 20 years, and just think of some of the rubbish we’ve had.
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He has to go for the sake of the club, the fans are mutinous a new manager will remove all the built-up frustrations running through the club that alone will improve performances.
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French Bobby Gould .
Bob Le Gouldè.
Very very lame performance. Didn't change the system, didn't really have a system. Players definitely tried but too much quality left on the bench. A simple 4231 or 433 would improve things vastly with the right players in positions that suit them.
Hey ho, back to basics I say and I don't know what that means in terms of going forward manager-wise.
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Wonder what his excuses tonight will be in the post match presser.
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It’s disappointing that it’s not working out. I was willing to give him a chance to build and was not quick on the sack him train. And I still wouldn’t be if there were any sign of hope or a spark and if our form wasn’t so absolutely dire. But I can’t see how we would get another win if this keeps up. We just finished the “easy†part of the schedule to.
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I suspect the manager thread will be very similar to mid-week. But what shocks me more than anything else is just how bad a lot of these players are. Just the basics of professional football seems out of reach for many of them.
We have a few players who are literally stealing a living, in their 30s with their legs gone, on lucrative contracts who are past it, even at this level. Then we have another collection of players who are circa lower championship / league one standard and embarrassing to watch. Then finally we have another collection of players who are good quality but completely disjointed. The squad is terrible really and just goes to show how much our better players who we lost in the summer, carried the team.
Only players who I thought came out of today with any credit were Carroll, Grady, Robinson & Bartley.
Townsend looked like a drunk amateur.
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Complete and utter unmitigated disaster. For the sake of everyone please end it tonight
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If that isn't enough to get him the sack then I dread to think what it will take. He has never convinced but decent results kept him in the good books for the first 2-3 months.
The last 3 months have been as poor as anything I can remember seeing - mid-90's included. Since Fulham (a) at the end of October we've shown form that will leave you between 17th and 20th and the last two games are the worst performances of the season. It's getting worse not better.
The players have stopped playing for him and it's curtains at that stage. Just as much their responsibility as the manager's but confidence is shot, form is shot, their faith in him is shot.
Too many journeyman jobbers on long contracts who have downed tools for 5+ managers.
How many combined PL relegations do Livermore, Bartley, Phillips have they had in their careers? Double figures? 'Leaders' who are losers well versed in failure.
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Imagine the arrogance to say you’ll change it and then nothing.
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If that isn't enough to get him the sack then I dread to think what it will take. He has never convinced but decent results kept him in the good books for the first 2-3 months.
The last 3 months have been as poor as anything I can remember seeing - mid-90's included. Since Fulham (a) at the end of October we've shown form that will leave you between 17th and 20th and the last two games are the worst performances of the season. It's getting worse not better.
The players have stopped playing for him and it's curtains at that stage. Just as much their responsibility as the manager's but confidence is shot, form is shot, their faith in him is shot.
Too many journeyman jobbers on long contracts who have downed tools for 5+ managers.
How many combined PL relegations do Livermore, Bartley, Phillips have they had in their combined careers? Double figures? 'Leaders' who are losers well versed in failure.
I think this criticism is well placed in general save for Bartley has been pretty decent for us, surrounded by dross a lot of the time.
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Imagine the arrogance to say you’ll change it and then nothing.
He's something else.
I fell for it too. I put my hand up.
I assumed he had been told in no uncertain terms things need to change. Guess not.
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Imagine the arrogance to say you’ll change it and then nothing.
Team selection today seemed to be guided by a desire to get as many big lumps and experienced players into the side as possible. Away at Millwall in a storm, I can understand it, to a point. But when the players can't even get the very basics right I find it hard to throw too much stick at the dug out. These players need a long hard luck in the mirror. Save for a select handful who did okay.
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Team selection today seemed to be guided by a desire to get as many big lumps and experienced players into the side as possible. Away at Millwall in a storm, I can understand it, to a point. But when the players can't even get the very basics right I find it hard to throw too much stick at the dug out. These players need a long hard luck in the mirror. Save for a select handful who did okay.
He does this selection most weeks. There is no tactic. 3-4-3, that's it.
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How many of this squad has a resale value more than what we paid for them as well
This reminds me of the Alan Buckley era….shudder !!!
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I do hope the direct line from China is ringing out loud and the instruction is to end this misery and sack the clown
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Perhaps we should all respect each other’s opinions a little more. Because that’s all they are - opinions.
We all want our club to do well. I’ve had almost 50 years of (mostly) disappointment but I keep coming back for more.
I’ve gradually shifted from being optimistic about Ismael to the opposite, mainly because of results and performances over the last several months. I’m afraid that view hasn’t shifted with three late goals at home to Peterborough. That’s my honest opinion, and it has built up over time rather than through the odd result here and there.
What will start to shift it positively is if the team follows up with some more positive results and performances. This was Ismael’s third win in almost three months - 3 wins in 11 games isn’t great, and we’ve failed to score in 5 of them.
I think he has the worst squad we’ve fielded for 20 years, and that’s not his fault. I cut him slack for that - I don’t think we have any right to expect automatic promotion, but we are better than the poor results and performances have been since he had such a good start in the first ten games.
So it’s about trends for me. If his next three or four results are as poor as the last three or four before today, that keeps the trend line going down. We won’t stay in the top six with the results he’s achieved over the past four months and good coaches don’t tend to make teams worse.
If he starts to get top 6 results over the next few weeks (and he needs to if we’re to stay in the top 6 for much longer), then he’ll start to restore some of my confidence.
But I’m afraid three late goals against probably the league’s worst team - welcome though it is - is not enough to persuade me that Ismael has turned the corner. It took quite a lot of poor results to turn me negative on Ismael, and likewise it’ll take quite a few positive ones to restore my belief.
That’s an honest opinion. I entirely respect that other people may see it differently. But one result isn’t enough to swing the pendulum either way on its own for me.
Pleased with the result, but not anything more than that for now.
This is what I posted just a week ago after Peterborough. I think it’s fair to say that the trend line has now been firmly established in a downwards direction in the seven days since.
I really wanted him to be a success - and he’s been working with a mediocre squad. But he’s made them punch below their weight, and it’s simply got progressively worse.
There isn’t any sign that things will improve and in such cases the players don’t go. The manager does.
It’s over.
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This is what I posted just a week ago after Peterborough. I think it’s fair to say that the trend line has now been firmly established in a downwards direction in the seven days since.
I really wanted him to be a success - and he’s been working with a mediocre squad. But he’s made them punch below their weight, and it’s simply got progressively worse.
There isn’t any sign that things will improve and in such cases the players don’t go. The manager does.
It’s over.
The downward trend was established months ago. We only beat Coventry and Reading as he couldn't pick his faves. Soon as they were available they were straight back in and normal service resumed.
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The squad isn't amazing, but it's better than this. This was his very very very last chance for me.
I'll never watch a game of ours again whilst we're led by this manager. Gospel.
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I do hope the direct line from China is ringing out loud and the instruction is to end this misery and sack the clown
China is shut for CNY !!!!
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IS HE GONE YET??????
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Players a disgrace but Vi just incompetent and out of his depth , it’s clear for everyone to see. Whoever inherits this squad has some real poor characters to work with that’s for sure . Quality means nothing if you have players with poor attitudes.
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Wonder if Val will have another sleepless night tonight after that performance. He said he stayed up worrying after the game against PNE about how he could change things.
What a joke.
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The downward trend was established months ago. We only beat Coventry and Reading as he couldn't pick his faves. Soon as they were available they were straight back in and normal service resumed.
Yep. My post was in the context of some people feeling many of us were overly negative after three late goals against Peterborough.
The manner of that result didn’t change the downwards trend line for me and I very much doubted it would herald a revival. And it didn’t.
In fact the last two games have probably been even worse than even the manager’s harshest critics would have expected.
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Has to go but the whole things a mess. When a team comes down from the prem eventually they stay down and hit years of wilderness (Sunderland, Leeds, Sheff Wed, Ipswich etc). We managed to be up and down for the past 12-15 years but now might be the barren years. Manager out of his depth a bunch of players who have not performed and a disinterested owner....
Who on earth will we hire? This owner has presided over
Pulis, Pardew, Moore, Bilic, Sam and Big Val....
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Yep. My post was in the context of some people feeling many of us were overly negative after three late goals against Peterborough.
The manner of that result didn’t change the downwards trend line for me and I very much doubted it would herald a revival. And it didn’t.
In fact the last two games have probably been even worse than even the manager’s harshest critics would have expected.
POsh are a league 1 team in all but name. I saw no reason to get carried away with a 3-0 win. That's the bare minimum i'd expect from us against them on a bad day.
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Well after his firey pre game confrence that was really damp.
He played the same players in the same way thats been failing for the last 20 games.
If he wants his current system to work he needs better players on the pitch. He cannot honestly believe a midfield or Livermore furlong and Townsend is going to yield anything positive. He should start Phillips right wing back and have TGH in with mowatt as that pairing was the best we have witnessed in his tenure.
Otherwise why arent we playing 4 2 3 1 and sacking off a cb we dont need? He seems to have coached the basics out of us. We couldnt even pass 5 yards today.
Some absolute mares today; kipre furlong Townsend Livermore grant and Phillips. Doesnt help when your players dont play for you but even if they did the system isnt working and hadnt been working for an while. Thats 9 goals in 15 games. In 10 of thoae games we have failed to score. 5 wins in 15 and 17/45 points. I hate we keep changing managers but I think its time
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He does this selection most weeks. There is no tactic. 3-4-3, that's it.
Yeah, I don't have a problem with the formation. But players putting in performances like drunk idiots is something else. We have two thirds of the team who are unable to concentrate, run around the pitch, control the ball, have some basic nous, pass to each other, take any responsibility or defend like professionals. The whole side also falls to pieces at soon we get into the opposition box and we don't seem to have any basic footballing instinct for when to quicken up or slow down the game. All of that is unacceptable regardless of the formation.
Overall we are desperately short of creativity in the midfield and really struggle against sides like Millwall who love a battle.
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He’s getting tactically torn apart by Micheal Dawson on Sky.
Just imagine that.
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Someone on Twitter said club have missed a trick, we should have sacked him in the 60th minute
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He’s getting tactically torn apart by Micheal Dawson on Sky.
Just imagine that.
Dawson said that the team offered next to nothing, which was a fair comment.
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He’s getting tactically torn apart by Micheal Dawson on Sky.
Just imagine that.
Could tell after 3 games he was useless tactically. A horror show paying compensation for him and giving him the contract.
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I never like to see anyone lose their job but it’s not worked out for VI. At Barnsley he had a young g squad of ok players who were able to play his high intensity style. The players here were/are of a different quality and have not settled to the style. In addition we expect to see attractive football and even when we were winning it wasn’t easy on the eye. Shame but there we go. Lord knows who we get next. Do we go for a short term appointment?
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Should be his last game?
Dire 2nd half.
Last game taught him according to his pre-match interview, but clearly he didn't learn form it.
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Yeah, I don't have a problem with the formation. But players putting in performances like drunk idiots is something else. We have two thirds of the team who are unable to concentrate, run around the pitch, control the ball, have some basic nous, pass to each other, take any responsibility or defend like professionals. The whole side also falls to pieces at soon we get into the opposition box and we don't seem to have any basic footballing instinct for when to quicken up or slow down the game. All of that is unacceptable regardless of the formation.
Overall we are desperately short of creativity in the midfield and really struggle against sides like Millwall who love a battle.
He's made them worse, no doubt about it in my opinion.
The players themselves are total bottlejobs, i have no love for them. I called for them to be broken up in the Bilic season, too many tippy-tappers make an unbalanced squad and are usually the first to down tools. Every level of football they are the same. We need a bloke who's going to come in and drop the dross. VI won't do that and it's going to cost him his job.
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4-2-3-1 is the way I’d go personally. Think that’s what I’d expect any other manager to settle on. I don’t think 3-4-3 is necessarily bad though but we are just not executing it. VI can’t survive this, so I think it all comes down to finances now.
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Dawson said that the team offered next to nothing, which was a fair comment.
He actually said that tactically we offered nothing.
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He actually said that tactically we offered nothing.
Well the players were incapable of controlling the ball, passing it, running about, defending properly, communicating, linking, shooting or tackling. So yeah, quite a bit to work on, considering they are supposedly professional footballers.
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Well the players were incapable of controlling the ball, passing it, running about, defending properly, communicating, linking, shooting or tackling. So yeah, quite a bit to work on, considering they are supposedly professional footballers.
Manager is doing a grand job though… ???
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All that needs to be said has been said a thousand times, a change of manager is needed so the new guy can assess what's here and sort us out ready for next season this one has been an unmitigated disaster.
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Must go, worst manager since I’ve been supporting and that includes Pardew :o
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"Steve Madeley
@SteveMadeley78
Some quotes to come from Ismael but the general theme of his post-match comments was that he felt the mentality and commitment was better than Wednesday. He sounded quite pleased with the first half and blamed fatigue for the second-half display. #WBA"
;D ;D
The cheek of Ismael.
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The main problem is he could easily fix it with some tactical and starting 11 tweaks. Today he has shown and indefensible arroganceand that's probably it for him.
If the results and position was even throughout the season you'd probably say we were below par slightly but the fact that we were unbeaten first 10 and then consider the form since then it can no longer be ignored with Val not changing the approach in the last 4-5 games with the same hopeless players back in when all available.
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Stop the talk of other managers folks, you all know it isn't allowed. Might not be long now, who knows...
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"Steve Madeley
@SteveMadeley78
Some quotes to come from Ismael but the general theme of his post-match comments was that he felt the mentality and commitment was better than Wednesday. He sounded quite pleased with the first half and blamed fatigue for the second-half display. #WBA"
;D ;D
The cheek of Ismael.
I didn't see the game in mid-week but I think he is right that the players were trying today and did look knackered in the second half; probably as we have too many dads army players. But the lack of quality was all too apparent.
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Stop the talk of other managers folks, you all know it isn't allowed. Might not be long now, who knows...
Apologises, partly my fault and I'm the only Albion fan left who would rather stick with the current manager :)
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I didn't see the game in mid-week but I think he is right that the players were trying today and did look knackered in the second half; probably as we have too many dads army players. But the lack of quality was all too apparent.
Why didn't he change the team then instead of picking same old same old? Can't hide behind his players being suspended anymore.
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"Steve Madeley
@SteveMadeley78
Some quotes to come from Ismael but the general theme of his post-match comments was that he felt the mentality and commitment was better than Wednesday. He sounded quite pleased with the first half and blamed fatigue for the second-half display. #WBA"
;D ;D
The cheek of Ismael.
If that’s true he’s surely taking the p155 out of the fans. Pay him off and get him out the arrogant piece of @&£1
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I didn't see the game in mid-week but I think he is right that the players were trying today and did look knackered in the second half; probably as we have too many dads army players. But the lack of quality was all too apparent.
Fatigue and he gives Livermore 90, 70, 90 mins in 3 days, a 32 year old who runs like a 42 year old.
I bet Ismael is really intelligent company over a meal.
The stupidity defies belief.
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I’d fire him based on the post match comments alone. Forget the performance.
He genuinely doesn’t see what anybody else does. The formation doesn’t work and will never work. Today a terrible, and I mean terrible, Milwall team were able to nullify pretty much our entire attacking system and then just break away.
Please let this madness end.
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Fatigue and he gives Livermore 90, 70, 90 mins in 3 days, a 32 year old who runs like a 42 year old.
I bet Ismael is really intelligent company over a meal.
The stupidity defies belief.
Even worse his excuse for dropping TGH after an excellent performance was that he needs to rotate the squad to keep people fresh and fight off fatigue and then never rotated the CM unless he had too.
He's a slippery snake.
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I didn't see the game in mid-week but I think he is right that the players were trying today and did look knackered in the second half; probably as we have too many dads army players. But the lack of quality was all too apparent.
He can't even use that excuse Mulumby and TGH would offer youth and freshness they remained on the bench.
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We haven't got the best squad but most managers could improve where we are right now, by a long way.
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Why didn't he change the team then instead of picking same old same old? Can't hide behind his players being suspended anymore.
Today, all I can think is that he wanted as much brute strength and experience on the pitch given the opposition away from home in a storm, with the more tricky but lightweight players on the bench to come on against tiring legs. Clearly didn't work. But regardless of who he picked there was a good 6/7 who should played and should hang their heads in shame.
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Apologises, partly my fault and I'm the only Albion fan left who would rather stick with the current manager :)
The irony! Well I'm all for a long term project but if he's kept on then we have to go all in, back him and let him have 4 years.
For me - we go one extreme or the other, end it today or go all in supporting him.
His huge error though is THESE PLAYERS CAN'T DO PRESSING AND INTENSITY. If he doesn't address this and he hasn't then he has no leg to stand on. You don't take over Arsenal invincibles and ask them to play like George Grahams Arsenal and vice versa. Equallsy you employ the right man.
Almost every step this club makes is wrong.
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Today, all I can think is that he wanted as much brute strength and experience on the pitch given the opposition away from home in a storm, with the more tricky but lightweight players on the bench to come on against tiring legs. Clearly didn't work. But regardless of who he picked there was a good 6/7 who should played and should hang their heads in shame.
I think you give Val too much credit for thinking. I'm sure he would have picked that team regardless.
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I think you give Val too much credit for thinking. I'm sure he would have picked that team regardless.
There's certain players guaranteed to be in that side regardless of form. Furlong always pops back in, Livermore, Mowatt, Bartley, Kipre, Grant plus seems Phillips is a favourite also.
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Some Tweeter accounts saying
“Apparently Ismael has been sacked, let’s hope it’s trueâ€
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There's certain players guaranteed to be in that side regardless of form. Furlong always pops back in, Livermore, Mowatt, Bartley, Kipre, Grant plus seems Phillips is a favourite also.
Spot on. Half the dross are his favourite players and has got them extended deals at our cost. Sackable for that alone.
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Err..this is a very straight line John.
Downwards.
Saw you comment in the match thread, I think you said I scolded you. I didn't, just pointing out that progress is very rarely a straight line.
I agree, we're not making progress at the moment, IMO the board's strategic plan of using the head coach to set the style & identity is the right one. There are too many power struggles between Head Coach & DoF if we revert to the DoF model.
It's becoming increasingly clear now that VI is not the right Head Coach for us & will have to be replaced.
I just hope that the replacement is chosen with a view to continuing the current strategic plan.
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Fatigue and he gives Livermore 90, 70, 90 mins in 3 days, a 32 year old who runs like a 42 year old.
I bet Ismael is really intelligent company over a meal.
The stupidity defies belief.
I think this criticism is well placed. You do wonder what the discussions are between the coaching staff. Whilst we are also on the subject of highlighting certain players I think one who is getting away with an awful lot recently is Kipre, him & Furlong together on that right side are like a hand grenade ready to go off. The team also lacks leadership. Can Dara save Val if he is still in a job in February?
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Some Tweeter accounts saying
“Apparently Ismael has been sacked, let’s hope it’s trueâ€
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASSSSSEEE be true
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This guy is finished, every manager in championship knows how he plays. Tactially makes zero changes in game.
Got zero confidence in the board/ recruitment to make the right decision here but its got to the point its screaming at their face. He should of been sacked last month, but again today after seeing line up alone, he's even taking the urine every post match interview now.
Take nothing away from the performances of recent players they should be hung out to dry but this guy simply isn't the one to turn it all around.
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I think this criticism is well placed. You do wonder what the discussions are between the coaching staff. Whilst we are also on the subject of highlighting certain players I think one who is getting away with an awful lot recently is Kipre, him & Furlong together on that right side are like a hand grenade ready to go off. The team also lacks leadership. Can Dara save Val if he is still in a job in February?
We've been crying out for a McInnes type on that pitch since he left.
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We haven't got the best squad but most managers could improve where we are right now, by a long way.
Button - reasonable Championship standard
Furlong - Championship standard mid-table
Townsend - Championship standard mid-table
Bartley - Championship standard
Kipre - Championship standard
Clarke - possibly top-end Championship/lower Prem at his best
Livermore - ageing player who is now mid-Championship standard
Mowatt - top Championship at his best
Phillips - way past his best mid-championship standard
Carole - way past his best possible last season at this level
Grant - top/mid Championship standard
We have a Championship squad in the Championship the problem is many are on Prem money on long contracts.
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The irony! Well I'm all for a long term project but if he's kept on then we have to go all in, back him and let him have 4 years.
For me - we go one extreme or the other, end it today or go all in supporting him.
His huge error though is THESE PLAYERS CAN'T DO PRESSING AND INTENSITY. If he doesn't address this and he hasn't then he has no leg to stand on. You don't take over Arsenal invincibles and ask them to play like George Grahams Arsenal and vice versa. Equallsy you employ the right man.
Almost every step this club makes is wrong.
I understand what you’re getting at. But I dread to think where we’d be in four years.
I don’t like talk of “projects†in football - they’re nearly always an excuse for poor results. It’s mostly a “now†business, especially in a world where very few clubs can develop teams over time. If you try to do that you get the gems picked off anyway.
You have to sign better players than you already have. If you don’t you go one way. Just look at our squad player-for-player compared with 5 or 6 years ago. Downgrades everywhere you look.
Add an incapable manager to the mix and it’s a pretty lethal cocktail.
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I understand what you’re getting at. But I dread to think where we’d be in four years.
I don’t like talk of “projects†in football - they’re nearly always an excuse for poor results. It’s mostly a “now†business, especially in a world where very few teams develop teams over time. If you try to do that you get the gems picked off anyway.
You have to sign better players than you already have. If you don’t you go one way. Just look at our squad player-for-player compared with 5 or 6 years ago. Downgrades everywhere you look.
Add an incapable manager to the mix and it’s a pretty lethal cocktail.
Very true, a project in footballing terms means to me "i know im rubbish but give me more time"
You either work with what you have and play to THEIR strengths or buy the players you need.
You don't do neither and drag the club down the table.
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Button - reasonable Championship standard
Furlong - Championship standard mid-table
Townsend - Championship standard mid-table
Bartley - Championship standard
Kipre - Championship standard
Clarke - possibly top-end Championship/lower Prem at his best
Livermore - ageing player who is now mid-Championship standard
Mowatt - top Championship at his best
Phillips - way past his best mid-championship standard
Carole - way past his best possible last season at this level
Grant - top/mid Championship standard
We have a Championship squad in the Championship the problem is many are on Prem money on long contracts.
Half of that lot are mid-table championship players at best. Doesn't mean the manager should be absolved of responsibly but let's not not carried away with some of this dross.
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I think it would make sense to get a new manager in now to use the end of this season to find out what he needs for the summer. If we stay in the play-offs that would be a bonus.
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Half of that lot are mid-table championship players at best. Doesn't mean the manager should be absolved of responsibly but let's not not carried away with some of this dross.
I agree, they’re not great but let’s see what the next manager gets out of them.
They are a hell of a lot better than Milwall and PNE.
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Post match comments from OS
Ismaël said: “It was a difficult one to take.
“We started the game with a great mentality in the first 10-15 minutes, caused our opponents stress, forced corners and had good chances to score.
“We wanted to show the same start in the second half and Robbo and Grady gave us energy when they came on, but we made mistakes again and it’s difficult to come back from when you’re on a run like of results like this.
“We’ve lost two games and it’s been a difficult week. We’ve been conceding too many goals and it wasn’t what we were expecting so today’s result was a really difficult one to take today.
“When the game was at 0-0, we needed to stay strong and be more clinical with our chances. We should have forced the opponent in their half more to force the mistakes, but at the minute it’s turning on us for the other side.
“But this is football and we have to find a way to fight back in our next game. This is what you need to show against the setbacks we face and the performance will have to be delivered to give us a chance of winning in the next game.â€
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He has to be taking the mick. HE WASNT EXPECTING IT?!?!?!
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Did anyone keep the receipt from Barnsley for £2 million? I know it's past 30 day return policy but can't we just claim it's a football manager not as described or fit for purpose?
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Today, all I can think is that he wanted as much brute strength and experience on the pitch given the opposition away from home in a storm, with the more tricky but lightweight players on the bench to come on against tiring legs. Clearly didn't work. But regardless of who he picked there was a good 6/7 who should played and should hang their heads in shame.
You say that but he picks Matt Phillips who is as far from what you've described as anybody else, could've just dropped him for a Molumby and changed up the formation
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I really tried to the last to back him but the games up, players have clearly stopped for him. No press just aimless hoof’s up the pitch. Dread to think who these jokers will appoint next but Ismael has to go.
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I think it would make sense to get a new manager in now to use the end of this season to find out what he needs for the summer. If we stay in the play-offs that would be a bonus.
Key requirements for whoever is in charge is a large chequebook, a huge axe, a wing and a prayer. Plus a time machine to cancel some of the ridiculous contract extensions we have handed out. But in all seriousness we should just be focussing on trying to turn around the performances & results to get some momentum and into the play-offs. We are still after all in the top six, so in with a shout. So no need to completely write off this season. You also have Dike to return later on. Personally, if I was Val, I would have the players running laps around the pitch for the next week, corporal punishment. I'd be fuming with them.
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You say that but he picks Matt Phillips who is as far from what you've described as anybody else, could've just dropped him for a Molumby and changed up the formation
Well Phillips definitely falls into the experienced category and on paper has height & strength, I stress on paper. Whereas the younger, lighter players were benched. Personally. I wouldn't have started Phillips, I don't get it; but a lot of West Brom managers seem to disagree, and pay with their job.
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Did anyone keep the receipt from Barnsley for £2 million? I know it's past 30 day return policy but can't we just claim it's a football manager not as described or fit for purpose?
Something that med me loff in the middle of feeling utterly gloomy. So ta for that.
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These players are better than this drivel. Again manager needs to manage. Have a game plan. If players don’t you’re style find a style that does. Just lump to the bug fella isn’t working.
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Bob Le Gouldè.
Cheered me up that did
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Button - reasonable Championship standard
Furlong - Championship standard mid-table
Townsend - Championship standard mid-table
Bartley - Championship standard
Kipre - Championship standard
Clarke - possibly top-end Championship/lower Prem at his best
Livermore - ageing player who is now mid-Championship standard
Mowatt - top Championship at his best
Phillips - way past his best mid-championship standard
Carole - way past his best possible last season at this level
Grant - top/mid Championship standard
We have a Championship squad in the Championship the problem is many are on Prem money on long contracts.
Completely agree with this.
Why so many of our fans are arrogant to think we have anything better than a championship standard squad capable of a playoff finish is beyond me.
I get the anger about performances, team selection at times, style of play and I think even with the rotten crop of players we have that clearly can’t be bothered if the manager won’t pander to their egos, there’s no excuse for recent results. But to argue we have one of the best sides in the league and somehow have a right to an automatic spot is laughable.
This is a really poor side and I think playoffs is where it should be and that’s only because the league is a poor standard this year.
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I can see one of those “worst managers of all time†threads appearing before long. Because surely VI would be a contender for the list.
Whether it’s because he has a poor squad, the wrong set of players for his “style,†or he’s just incompetent, he’s been unsuccessful by any measure.
I go back to the early 70s so the likes of Howe, Giles (2nd time), Saunders, Talbot, Gould, Buckley, Little, Mel and Pardew would be prominent in the list of disappointments. But Ismael may also have earned his place in the Hall of Significant Failure.
It’s hugely disappointing because I really had high hopes he would get a disciplined team that was more than the sum of its parts. Instead he’s done just the opposite.
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I can see one of those “worst managers of all time†threads appearing before long. Because surely VI would be a contender for the list.
Whether it’s because he has a poor squad, the wrong set of players for his “style,†or he’s just incompetent, he’s been unsuccessful by any measure.
I go back to the early 70s so the likes of Howe, Giles (2nd time), Saunders, Talbot, Gould, Buckley, Little, Mel and Pardew would be prominent in the list of disappointments. But Ismael may also have earned his place in the Hall of Significant Failure.
It’s hugely disappointing because I really had high hopes he would get a disciplined team that was more than the sum of its parts. Instead he’s done just the opposite.
Interesting. Statistically the only managers to have been in charge for 10 games or more and have a win percentage of less than 20% are: Nobby Stiles, Alan Pardew, Sam Allardyce, Pepe Mel & Brian Little. I guess a lot of this falls into lies, damned lies, and statistics bracket of lacking context, to a point.
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Be nice if VI came out and resigned, be we know that won't happen with a 4 year deal in his pocket. I'd respect him if he did.
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Interesting. Statistically the only managers to have been in charge for 10 games or more and have a win percentage of less than 20% are: Nobby Stiles, Alan Pardew, Sam Allardyce, Pepe Mel & Brian Little. I guess a lot of this falls into lies, damned lies, and statistics bracket of lacking context, to a point.
Yes I agree that stats always need context - Stiles never wanted the job and inherited the mess from Giles’ recruitment. Allardyce divides opinion, but I think he had a much poorer hand to work with than either Pardew or Mel (as this season also tends to suggest).
Stats don’t always tell the story.. For example, VI can point to our longest ever unbeaten run from the start of the season and our longest unbeaten home run from the start of the season.
But it’s in a weakened Championship with an expensive squad that’s been playing badly for ages and results are matching performances. It has to be context alongside stats to make a fair assessment. I don’t think VI compares well.
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Be nice if VI came out and resigned, be we know that won't happen with a 4 year deal in his pocket. I'd respect him if he did.
You'd hope to god there is some kind of break clause in there, or something to mitigate a full 4-year compensation pay out. If not, they've made a rod for their own back and made it harder for themselves to sack him.
But it would be oh so Lai-era Albion to have had no idea to plan for this eventuality.
"Wait, we were supposed to act in the long-term interests of the club? Oh. Well how was I supposed to know? You know I don't know football!"
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He's not going is he......
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He's not going is he......
The Boris Johnson of managers.
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The Boris Johnson of managers.
The Pardew of managers and the Lai of owners. Next episode.
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He's not going is he......
No. Top executives and directors are like senior politicians.....they never admit mistakes as its taken as a sign of weakness. Ismael had just been backed with the purchase of Dike...the bloke he wanted. The board will wait to see how that works out before making a move.
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Everyone calm down, we all heard the man. The boys were leggy from their efforts on Wednesday (I remember the huge effort) and it showed today after a really bright start to the match causing them problems then we had a second wave of energy with Robinson coming on…and like they have so many times over the last three months, today is just another chance to take responsibility for criticism after a bad performance and as we all know that’s a positive because we always have the next game of football to show our intensity and passion and what the fuggin hell am I listening to??? Is this guy serious?
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https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/01/29/west-brom-boss-valerian-ismael-insists-he-will-fight-on-after-millwall-defeat/
Roughly translated I’m not quitting you’ll have to fire me.
I do hope the board are on a zoom call now discussing options.
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No. Top executives and directors are like senior politicians.....they never admit mistakes as its taken as a sign of weakness. Ismael had just been backed with the purchase of Dike...the bloke he wanted. The board will wait to see how that works out before making a move.
I did actually look tonight just to completely reassure myself we had enough points to avoid relegation. We are that bad and the club in such a state of meltdown that we are going to struggle to get points from anyone if VI stays on. (For the record we probably still need 6 or 7 to stay up).
And how unfair it all is on Dike. A 21 year old kid expected to transform the fortunes of a struggling team without quality, direction or morale.
Where would we be after waiting another 10 games for a young and inexperienced player (who won’t immediately be match fit) to slot straight in - with the expectation he can make all the difference?
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Is he still here?
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Due to the time difference it’ll be tomorrow
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Incomponent, stubborn, arrogant and totally out of his depth. Please get this clown out of our club before he completely ruins it.
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We should be peeing this league with the player’s at our disposal has to be the worst championship ever, as for this the joke of a coach’s excuse’s post match being tired takes the biscuit. He must think we are idiots.
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If you can see Livermore is league one standard at best then god help you in terns of football knowledge
Think I know a bit more than you. I look at each game on its own merits and not decide, in advance, that all of our problems lie with one player.
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Incomponent, stubborn, arrogant and totally out of his depth. Please get this clown out of our club before he completely ruins it.
Unfortunately that description could also apply to those in charge of appointing Ismael who also seem out of their depth and have no clue if they think VI s the answer
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Someone said Livermore = mid table Championship standard, more like mid table National League. I'm being serious.
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How on earth did this guy win 23 championship games last season :o
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I am all for giving managers a chance and always fall into " Be careful what you wish for" camp but this week has been an absolute disaster and with our squad we should be walking this league. Quite simply teams have sussed us out and we are incapable of unlocking defences.
Si IMOP VI has to go now but at the end of the window i can see little point in rushing some one in not that there is any stand out available. James Morrison might be an option to the end of the season as with Big Dave but we cannot go on like this. Gary Megson might be a shout too.
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I am all for giving managers a chance and always fall into " Be careful what you wish for" camp but this week has been an absolute disaster and with our squad we should be walking this league. Quite simply teams have sussed us out and we are incapable of unlocking defences.
Si IMOP VI has to go now but at the end of the window i can see little point in rushing some one in not that there is any stand out available. James Morrison might be an option to the end of the season as with Big Dave but we cannot go on like this. Gary Megson might be a shout too.
Any chance Mr Lai calls out to Mr Pulis again :o ;D
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Incomponent, stubborn, arrogant and totally out of his depth. Please get this clown out of our club before he completely ruins it.
Any word on what it’s been like behind the scenes as of late, Baggie79? Or is this just your opinion from what we all know ;D
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I am definitely not of the opinion that we should be walking this league. Not by a long shot. Fulham are better. Bournemouth are probably better. Several other teams are around our level.
What we should be doing, I have no doubt, is better than what we are. We should be pressuring the top two and others around us. We should be difficult to beat. We should be a team that other teams don't look forward to facing. We should be a team that other fans look at and go "good team them, tough to beat". We're none of those at the moment. Right now, teams must be relishing facing us.
We have an England keeper in goal (or should have).
We have a frontline that has been put together at a cost of around £40m. (Grant, Grady, Dike, Robinson) and have all proved themselves capable at this level.
We have, in midfield, what should be a good axis to work with: Mowatt plus another. Yes, He's off the boil, but Mowatt has proved his worth in the early part of the season, I think. Personally, I'd be playing TGH next to him for most games, if only to get his experience at this level up.
We've got a half decent defence. The stats don't lie on that. More than the sum of their parts I reckon, they all have individual clangers in them, but I think good things of O'Shea, Townsend and Clarke.
Its frustrating because we should do better with what we have. We have talent on the ball. Its so aggravating to see us reduced to kick and rush when we have more than than in the locker. We should get back to basics and start playing the ball on the deck more. Its where we are better.
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If he doesn't go the atmosphere at the next game will be very very toxic
Crowd will be well under 20k
Surely he can't be in the dugout for that game
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How on earth did this guy win 23 championship games last season :o
That is a question well worth exploring.
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I don’t think we have scored in 11 games this season. If that stat doesn’t warrant a P45 for the manager then what does?
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How on earth did this guy win 23 championship games last season :o
He had a squad of younger players who were therefore better at running all game and more mealable. It's why it is bizarre that he has been so risk averse in not wanting to use our academy now, despite some promising performances from the likes of TGH.
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I am definitely not of the opinion that we should be walking this league. Not by a long shot. Fulham are better. Bournemouth are probably better. Several other teams are around our level.
What we should be doing, I have no doubt, is better than what we are. We should be pressuring the top two and others around us. We should be difficult to beat. We should be a team that other teams don't look forward to facing. We should be a team that other fans look at and go "good team them, tough to beat". We're none of those at the moment. Right now, teams must be relishing facing us.
We have an England keeper in goal (or should have).
We have a frontline that has been put together at a cost of around £40m. (Grant, Grady, Dike, Robinson) and have all proved themselves capable at this level.
We have, in midfield, what should be a good axis to work with: Mowatt plus another. Yes, He's off the boil, but Mowatt has proved his worth in the early part of the season, I think. Personally, I'd be playing TGH next to him for most games, if only to get his experience at this level up.
We've got a half decent defence. The stats don't lie on that. More than the sum of their parts I reckon, they all have individual clangers in them, but I think good things of O'Shea, Townsend and Clarke.
Its frustrating because we should do better with what we have. We have talent on the ball. Its so aggravating to see us reduced to kick and rush when we have more than than in the locker. We should get back to basics and start playing the ball on the deck more. Its where we are better.
This completely Val said in his presser yesterday he came away from his principles which is what we saw today, if he was smart he’d know we have players with better technical ability than most teams in this league and if he coached them to play with the ball on the deck he’d be getting more positive results.
Don’t get me wrong I really don’t like this squad, the elder ones have been abject failure here for 4 - 5 seasons, the likes of Furlong, Grant etc. just aren’t good enough & now they are seeing off their 3rd,4th,5th manager in so many years however they aren’t been helped by this bloke been in charge.
He’s been figured out & his stubbornness to even tweak his system / style will be his downfall. I really wanted it to work & thought we’d got a decent manager, however the performances since September have been gradually getting worse as have the results, his position has to be untenable after these last 2 games.
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My tuppence worth... (I'll be very happy to be proved wrong).
Despite the justifiable doom and gloom, I think the board have gone all in on Ismael and I would be surprised if he gets the sack now. I think we'll have to be 10th or worse before he gets the boot. They've just given him £7m for Dike, a four year contract and I think Ismael is seen as the cure-all for the knowledge vacuum at the club.
We've got no DoF, Ron Gourlay hanging around as an 'advisor' and a half-baked recruitment department that doesn't deliver much, led by Ian Pearce.
I will say this for Ismael, I bet he interviewed well. He says all the right things; appealing to owners who are looking for someone to do their job for them. Talking about statistics i.e. 'quantifiable data' would sound like a man who knows what he is talking about to a Chinese billionaire who doesn't know his ar*e from his t*t where football is concerned.
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Nail on head regarding statistics . It is the model on which val works aesthetics don't concern him . How many times does he talk about quality of passing ,shooting etc . You don't play football on a pie chart or graph and personally I am sick of this xg statistic . My own eyes tell me the story .
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I am definitely not of the opinion that we should be walking this league. Not by a long shot. Fulham are better. Bournemouth are probably better. Several other teams are around our level.
What we should be doing, I have no doubt, is better than what we are. We should be pressuring the top two and others around us. We should be difficult to beat. We should be a team that other teams don't look forward to facing. We should be a team that other fans look at and go "good team them, tough to beat". We're none of those at the moment. Right now, teams must be relishing facing us.
We have an England keeper in goal (or should have).
We have a frontline that has been put together at a cost of around £40m. (Grant, Grady, Dike, Robinson) and have all proved themselves capable at this level.
We have, in midfield, what should be a good axis to work with: Mowatt plus another. Yes, He's off the boil, but Mowatt has proved his worth in the early part of the season, I think. Personally, I'd be playing TGH next to him for most games, if only to get his experience at this level up.
We've got a half decent defence. The stats don't lie on that. More than the sum of their parts I reckon, they all have individual clangers in them, but I think good things of O'Shea, Townsend and Clarke.
Its frustrating because we should do better with what we have. We have talent on the ball. Its so aggravating to see us reduced to kick and rush when we have more than than in the locker. We should get back to basics and start playing the ball on the deck more. Its where we are better.
Pretty much agree with all of that.
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This completely Val said in his presser yesterday he came away from his principles which is what we saw today, if he was smart he’d know we have players with better technical ability than most teams in this league and if he coached them to play with the ball on the deck he’d be getting more positive results.
What I heard in that presser after Preston was contrition, regret and accountability.
On the back of that, I expected to see a different approach today. A plan b. A change. Instead, same shape, same instructions, same team pretty much (apart from AC and dropping Diangana after two games where he looked a lot better). I didn't see any learning, any changes. Just the same method that has been found out and that the team aren't suited to.
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The style of play in the first few games was fast paced and exciting. We pressed high and looked like we could score at will. Then we stopped doing that. Why?
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The style of play in the first few games was fast paced and exciting. We pressed high and looked like we could score at will. Then we stopped doing that. Why?
Did we or have the players just not accepted it and not played to vals instructions?
It is bizarre how much its changed
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The style of play in the first few games was fast paced and exciting. We pressed high and looked like we could score at will. Then we stopped doing that. Why?
Got countered and Val's got no reply.
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He really does have a good record pre Albion
He has won a lot of games
Excellent at LASK before Barnsley and good track record before that
Just not worked for us
For all concerned he needs to be relieved of his duties
And I was Val in for a long time
Bit like the Pepe Mel debacle just not right for us
Barnsley before the end of the season will have their hero back IMO
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Did we or have the players just not accepted it and not played to vals instructions?
It is bizarre how much its changed
Don't think Val has changed anything and that's the point. Other teams have adapted and we haven't. We've set up in the same way in every minute of every game in the same formation, regardless of home, away, losing, drawing, winning, players injured, etc. We were found out months ago.
He could get away with it at Barnsley. They are the underdog in every game they play in this division. Albion (and Fulham) have played more Premier League football than anyone in the division in the last 20 years and we're expecting to win most games we play.
Fulham are a tactically versatile with a slick midfield and are hard to play against. Us? Not so much.
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Don't think Val has changed anything and that's the point. Other teams have adapted and we haven't. We've set up in the same way in every minute of every game in the same formation, regardless of home, away, losing, drawing, winning, players injured, etc. We were found out months ago.
He could get away with it at Barnsley. They are the underdog in every game they play in this division. Albion (and Fulham) have played more Premier League football than anyone in the division in the last 20 years and we're expecting to win most games we play.
Fulham are a tactically versatile with a slick midfield and are hard to play against. Us? Not so much.
It could be I’m just not remembering it clearly but we seemed to chase down and harass every defender at the start of the season giving them no time on the ball whatsoever. Now we don’t seem to do that at all. I don’t see the point of the front three at the moment. If they aren’t closing down the opposition at every opportunity what’s their role?
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It could be I’m just not remembering it clearly but we seemed to chase down and harass every defender at the start of the season giving them no time on the ball whatsoever. Now we don’t seem to do that at all. I don’t see the point of the front three at the moment. If they aren’t closing down the opposition at every opportunity what’s their role?
I think you're right. But other teams are much more content to let Albion have the ball than earlier in the season. We don't really threaten when we have it. Failed to score 11 times this season. Can't chase and harry the other team if we have possession of the ball.
When other sides do have the ball, they go long and direct against us. Poor teams clear their lines. Better teams try and exploit space we leave in behind.
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It could be I’m just not remembering it clearly but we seemed to chase down and harass every defender at the start of the season giving them no time on the ball whatsoever. Now we don’t seem to do that at all. I don’t see the point of the front three at the moment. If they aren’t closing down the opposition at every opportunity what’s their role?
Yes the equaliser we scored agsinst Bournemouth came about from the classic val ball press
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Yes the equaliser we scored agsinst Bournemouth came about from the classic val ball press
I remember shouting at the TV that's how to play football. But those quality moments have been in very short numbers this season
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Having sat through the last 2 games, I've now come to the view that he has to change the tactics. Next time (that's if there is a next time), he has to drop the idea of bombarding the opposition box. It doesn't work if the quality of the balls in are rubbish. I think he works on the law of averages that if you knock enough balls into the opposition box, some will bounce right.
I want to see players passing it into danger areas. Trouble is Mowatt is the only player who can deliver these passes regularly, but even he can't do this if he's sitting too deep. Overall, we have lost a load of midfield quality since last season. Then we had Yokuslu, Maitland Niles, Gallagher, Krovinovic, and last but not least Pereira. Now, besides Mowatt, TGH is the only midfielder who can loosely be called 'creative'. As me must strengthen in this area, I would also play Phillips or Robinson in behind the strikers, making a 3 in midfield, and then go to a back 4.
We must also improve the quality of the crosses. They must pick out a player they are crossing it too, and vary it a bit, ie not just slam it blindly across the goalmouth. Carroll gives us another option now.
That would improve things, but we are limited by who we have on our books. Contrary to what some on here think, this squad is not that special. We lost a lot of quality in the summer.
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Anyone think he will still be here come Monday morning?
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It could be I’m just not remembering it clearly but we seemed to chase down and harass every defender at the start of the season giving them no time on the ball whatsoever. Now we don’t seem to do that at all. I don’t see the point of the front three at the moment. If they aren’t closing down the opposition at every opportunity what’s their role?
Darren Ferguson clocked that if you don't let your defenders dwell on the ball or try and and play it out from the back the press is defeated.
It just turns into long ball head tennis garbage.
Brutally simple and effective counter to Val's philosophy.
The fact Valball was countered isn't an issue. It was expected sooner or later. What was unexpected was Val literally has no clue beyond his plan A.
Our managers strategy to success was based around on what others do and the hope they play football against us. When other teams realised they couldnt match us they gave up playing football and just went 3 4 3 to match us in a game of head tennis.
At this point we were getting draws against inferior opposition at least and those draws are now losses as he gave up on it but kept to a 3 4 3 that's a mess.
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Anyone think he will still be here come Monday morning?
No idea. I'm not ITK.
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Anyone think he will still be here come Monday morning?
Hope not
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Anyone think he will still be here come Monday morning?
Knowing the clueless muppets we have running the club there's every chance.
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He’ll be relieved Monday for me. Not a chance in hell the club want him managing another home game, the ground will get smashed up. I’d imagine since PNE we’ve been sounding out potential options.
When the die hard away fans turn you have to act. I’ve never seen the fans this angry but to be honest you can’t blame them as he’s given them next to nothing to support since he arrived. Just awful football, awful tactics and god awful excuses.
He makes Pardew look humble.
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"He makes Pardew look humble"
That's made it hit home harder than ever, so true.
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For me the Pardew era was the worst since Gould .
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Having spent some time to reflect on the game, he is still useless and needs to go. Over and out
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Moments before their second goal I muttered to my self that Bartley had visibly 'given up' he just stopped and started waving his arms around did anyone else see that or did I imagine it?
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Moments before their second goal I muttered to my self that Bartley had visibly 'given up' he just stopped and started waving his arms around did anyone else see that or did I imagine it?
The whole team had "gone" mate. No one could put a foot right, they got niggly, they weren't thinking clearly, mentally they had gone.
I don't think it's giving up as such. You know what it's like in life when nothing seems to be going right for you, you keep trying but in the end you just get so frustrated your mind snaps a bit and you're like "naughty word this". Footballers are the same it's human nature.
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Reading what he said yesterday is he won't quit. Hardly surprising as he stands to get a hefty payday if and when he is sacked!
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Reading what he said yesterday is he won't quit. Hardly surprising as he stands to get a hefty payday if and when he is sacked!
Would you quit sitting on a 4 year contract? He also has his pride and he'll want to turn things round.
Listening to him after the game though I don't think he really believes he can succeed now. He's not going to say that but there's a resignation in his voice.
Just waiting on the muppets up above to do the right thing and put everyone out of their misery Val included.
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Is he still here? His backside shouldn't have touched the seat of the team coach.
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Next home game is 14 February v Blackburn on Sky. It will be embarrassing for the club to showcase widespread unrest nationwide.
The next game is on 9 February at Sheff U. Surely that'll be a loss with a fired up Blades bang up for revenge?
It's a matter of time before it's over for Ismael.
The optimum time is to do the deed today with a 10 day rest period. Will they? Do they have the guts?
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I was val in for a most of the time. Trying to give him a chance. Manager’s position is untenable. But what is more clear the running of this football club. Any other club he would of been sacked by now. Somehow they’ve managed to mess this up.
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Next home game is 14 February v Blackburn on Sky. It will be embarrassing for the club to showcase widespread unrest nationwide.
The next game is on 9 February at Sheff U. Surely that'll be a loss with a fired up Blades bang up for revenge?
It's a matter of time before it's over for Ismael.
The optimum time is to do the deed today with a 10 day rest period. Will they? Do they have the guts?
I can't believe they haven't already sacked him to be honest. After Wednsday and then yesterday with the mood and disconnect as it is its blatantly obvious that this current situation can't continue. Things haven't been this bad since the 1990's. What more do they need?
Come on muppets, get your fingers out of your backsides and relieve him of his duties now!
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For me the Pardew era was the worst since Gould .
Agreed
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The whole team had "gone" mate. No one could put a foot right, they got niggly, they weren't thinking clearly, mentally they had gone.
I don't think it's giving up as such. You know what it's like in life when nothing seems to be going right for you, you keep trying but in the end you just get so frustrated your mind snaps a bit and you're like "naughty word this". Footballers are the same it's human nature.
Anybody who has played competitive sport at any level will recognise what you have described there.
I've never liked VI's style of football, but once I understood what he was trying to do, I went along with it. I took a similar position with Pulis.
I'm really not sure where we go from here, but there is a massive disconnect between the head coach & the fans, & it looks as though the players are finding it difficult.
Personally, I think we've passed the point of no return now & VI has to be replaced.
I just hope the club stays with it's strategic plan, IMO, the plan's right, we just got the wrong man.
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I can't believe they haven't already sacked him to be honest. After Wednsday and then yesterday with the mood and disconnect as it is its blatantly obvious that this current situation can't continue. Things haven't been this bad since the 1990's. What more do they need?
Come on muppets, get your fingers out of your backsides and relieve him of his duties now!
I don't think the UK board will act without an input from Lai. There's a 12 hour time difference between UK & China, so it's likely there will have been a conversation overnight.
If anything's going to happen, it will be in the next 24 hours IMO.
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Darren Ferguson clocked that if you don't let your defenders dwell on the ball or try and and play it out from the back the press is defeated.
It just turns into long ball head tennis garbage.
Brutally simple and effective counter to Val's philosophy.
The fact Valball was countered isn't an issue. It was expected sooner or later. What was unexpected was Val literally has no clue beyond his plan A.
Our managers strategy to success was based around on what others do and the hope they play football against us. When other teams realised they couldnt match us they gave up playing football and just went 3 4 3 to match us in a game of head tennis.
At this point we were getting draws against inferior opposition at least and those draws are now losses as he gave up on it but kept to a 3 4 3 that's a mess.
Perfect summary IMO.
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I don't think the UK board will act without an input from Lai. There's a 12 hour time difference between UK & China, so it's likely there will have been a conversation overnight.
If anything's going to happen, it will be in the next 24 hours IMO.
Actually an 8-hour time difference. They will have been talking since dawn here this morning. If it’s true that there is much larger compensation to pay if he is sacked while we are still in the top 6 then Ismaël still holds the aces re timing
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Chinese New Year, they are on holiday and yes they do shut down, I wouldn’t expect too much to happen next week
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As far as the fans calling for the managers head they should be careful what they wish for.
If he goes and we have to pay a large amount of compensation for the remainder of his contract then the board will do what they did when they sacked Darren Moore and just leave a caretaker manager in charge until the end of the season. We can't afford to pay the remainder of his contract and employ a new manager and possibly pay his current club compensation. We are club not financially flush so it will be a situation of Morrison as caretake boss until the end of the season.
Then what do you get Mark Hughes ?, Steve Bruce ? , Neil Warnock ? Really !!!
Just also need to point out that Albion fans hit a new low yesterday when they started singing " You're going to get sacked in the morning" to their own manager. Then started throwing seats onto the pitch. I've been a fan for 50 years and I've seen some bad managers, Don Howe, Ron Wylie, Alan Buckley, Bobby Gould to name a few but we never stooped that low. I'm just glad that I didn't renew my season ticket this year because I don't want to be associated with those so called fans .
You get out of life what you deserve and perhaps another 16 years out of the top flight is what we deserve like we had between 1985 and 2001.
You've never seen it this bad ? How about the demonstration with the coffin for Gould .Dennis Smith had to be kept in Halfords Lane till it was all cleared and the pitch invasion after the Woking game to voice anger towards Talbot. I'm not condoning this kind of behaviour but sometimes enough is enough
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People keep going on how bad the squad is ,but really is it tha0t bad. I don't think Val as any idea how to use forwards surly with Grant ,Robinson,Dianga and now Carroll how are we not scoring goals even Hugill to a certain degree cannot be bad players it's got to be down to match day tactics and the coaching
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You get out of life what you deserve and perhaps another 16 years out of the top flight is what we deserve
I won’t get in to why this isn’t true in life, but I’m curious as to Why you think fans of Man City deserved more than Notts county, or Preston, or Grimsby?
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Chinese New Year, they are on holiday and yes they do shut down, I wouldn’t expect too much to happen next week
There’s not a chance of Lai putting Chinese New Year holiday ahead of sorting this out. Too much at stake
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I won’t get in to why this isn’t true in life, but I’m curious as to Why you think fans of Man City deserved more than Notts county, or Preston, or Grimsby?
They didn’t deserve it - they just bought it
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I won’t get in to why this isn’t true in life, but I’m curious as to Why you think fans of Man City deserved more than Notts county, or Preston, or Grimsby?
Fans should stick by the club and all associated with it through whatever happens. Albion fans are continually calling for the manager to be sacked as soon as a few results go against us. Yesterday was unforgivable singing you're going to get sacked in the morning to your own manager when we are still 5th in the league.
It's as if they have a define right to be at the top of the table, I also think the players think that as well. Other teams can see this as well so they go this extra yard to get one over on us and it seems to be working. Which means we have to work that much harder. I haven't seen any Albion players working hard on the pitch lately.
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You've never seen it this bad ? How about the demonstration with the coffin for Gould .Dennis Smith had to be kept in Halfords Lane till it was all cleared and the pitch invasion after the Woking game to voice anger towards Talbot. I'm not condoning this kind of behaviour but sometimes enough is enough
Bobby Gould got us relegated to the 3rd tier, Woking, a non league club had just battered us at home in the FA cup. A far cry from us still sitting 5th in the table and a realistic chance of making the play offs.
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Bobby Gould got us relegated to the 3rd tier, Woking, a non league club had just battered us at home in the FA cup. A far cry from us still sitting 5th in the table and a realistic chance of making the play offs.
At the minute I can't see where the next point is coming from just look at the teams that have just embarrassed us .
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So I’m guessing he isn’t going to be sacked any time soon?
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He's going nowhere.
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So I’m guessing he isn’t going to be sacked any time soon?
He won’t make next home game. The club won’t won’t the trouble.
Imagine how bad it was against PNE and double it.
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So I’m guessing he isn’t going to be sacked any time soon?
Think it will more about the negotiations behind the scenes in payouts. It now must be seen as untenable for all parties involved. Probably waiting till the transfer window closes.
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Think it will more about the negotiations behind the scenes in payouts. It now must be seen as untenable for all parties involved. Probably waiting till the transfer window closes.
Interesting point that - do we buy players that he wants, or do we give him grounds for constructive dismissal by buying who he doesn’t want?
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The issue is should the board decide it is too expensive or they do want to stick with him, how does he turn it round?
A lot of the players have downed tools, he can make some changes but other than TGH and O’Shea i am not sure who can improve us as all the others have played a lot and are part of the problem, maybe give Molumby a run but not sure that will change much.
We can try some wheeling and dealing before tomorrow but the whole attitude of the players would have to change which i dont think will happen and Val would have to change his beliefs and i also dont think that would happen.
A lot of the fanbase have turned and if he is going to stay, i just dont know how things can be turned around.
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The issue is should the board decide it is too expensive or they do want to stick with him, how does he turn it round?
A lot of the players have downed tools, he can make some changes but other than TGH and O’Shea i am not sure who can improve us as all the others have played a lot and are part of the problem, maybe give Molumby a run but not sure that will change much.
We can try some wheeling and dealing before tomorrow but the whole attitude of the players would have to change which i dont think will happen and Val would have to change his beliefs and i also dont think that would happen.
A lot of the fanbase have turned and if he is going to stay, i just dont know how things can be turned around.
I don’t blame the players for downing tools. If I and the team I was managing were performing badly and then I told my team and customers I was going to change the way we do things but then do the exact same thing what do you think they’d be thinking?
I know I’d be thinking this guy doesn’t know what he’s doing or he’s an arrogant liar.
I have a horrible feeling it’s both.
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Feels like we are being trolled.
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We should be peeing this league with the player’s at our disposal has to be the worst championship ever, as for this the joke of a coach’s excuse’s post match being tired takes the biscuit. He must think we are idiots.
If Val goes then he goes. Personally I now see little option, but would hope that whoever is leading the club gets a fair chance to implement their ideas and get their own team together.
Which players at our disposal are we thinking about here?. These are the dregs of a team that nearly threw promotion away and without the addition of five better quality players, plus one or two already here that are not here now, who were losing games by three or four goals. They were in the premiership admittedly but the usual suspects were no better when in the Championship last time than they are now. Most of our players are not top 6 championship standard, and they are at the stages in their careers where they are unlikely to improve because they stopped listening and learning years ago. What gives any of these players a greater divine right to stay at the club any more than a manager? yet a number of them have let at least three managers down already. We are where we deserve to be as a team, and as a club.
I will not go into the so called 'support' and what that deserves, merely to say that I am ashamed to be included alongside those fuelled by social media rantings, who offer no encouragement but merely spew out the same old toxic cliches at every player and every manager they take a dislike to, or who was not their own preferred choice, before any football was kicked, let alone a match played.
The Championship is still what it always was. Very difficult to get out of, with some clubs punching above their weight and others not doing what they might have expected to. Some riding their luck and others not getting any of the good sort. It is no worse nor better than previous seasons.
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I don’t blame the players for downing tools. If I and the team I was managing were performing badly and then I told my team and customers I was going to change the way we do things but then do the exact same thing what do you think they’d be thinking?
I know I’d be thinking this guy doesn’t know what he’s doing or he’s an arrogant liar.
I have a horrible feeling it’s both.
If you read his comments after the Preston game, he said he was going to revert to the high press, high intensity tactic he used at the beginning of the season. There was never an intent to change anything.
He's been schooled in the Bundesliga model, & doesn't know anything else. David Wagner & Ralf Randrick are the same mould.
If you're expecting change, you're going to be disappointed.
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I don’t blame the players for downing tools. If I and the team I was managing were performing badly and then I told my team and customers I was going to change the way we do things but then do the exact same thing what do you think they’d be thinking?
I know I’d be thinking this guy doesn’t know what he’s doing or he’s an arrogant liar.
I have a horrible feeling it’s both.
any player that wears the shirt should put a shift in, you trying downing tools at work Monday morning see how long you last .
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Been away for the weekend so didn't see the game but, from catching up on comments on here, it seems clear that Val's words and deeds are, yet again, a million miles apart.
Talks up about doing things different and then does exactly the same thing that has failed for 70% of the season so far. Brings in yet another player to have a go at the CF role who manages to draw a blank. Same shapeless, aimless system that doesn't suit the players, same futile subs at the same time and the same zero influence on the game in progress.
Untenable now surely, to make such bold statements then do the same things suggests that he can't change even if he wants to!
The players have to share some of the blame, but for a manager to just keep sitting back and watching us get overrun and outfought, and do nothing, absolutely nothing, is just beyond bizarre.
All it needs is a change to 433 IMO and we would immediately improve, so the new bloke just needs a bit of common sense and the ability to read the game that is unfurling in front of him.
As for Val, he could have a good career with the tax office or maybe the civil service, where he can just quote stats all day.
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If you read his comments after the Preston game, he said he was going to revert to the high press, high intensity tactic he used at the beginning of the season. There was never an intent to change anything.
He's been schooled in the Bundesliga model, & doesn't know anything else. David Wagner & Ralf Randrick are the same mould.
If you're expecting change, you're going to be disappointed.
But you can only high press if an opposition plays out from the back. The minute they move it quick it’s game over for us and that has been pretty much the story since PBoro away.
Total one trick pony.
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I had hoped he would be gone by now, another two days with no word and this will start to get really worrying.
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He had a squad of younger players who were therefore better at running all game and more mealable. It's why it is bizarre that he has been so risk averse in not wanting to use our academy now, despite some promising performances from the likes of TGH.
Barnsley ran out of steam at the end of last season and they've struggled during this one too. Surprised nobody noticed that Val' had eaten their legs, the brute. Don't let him near TGH ;D .
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He can only blame the players if he's tried everything possible to get the best out of them, he hasn't he's just done the same thing over and over, despite it clearly not working for MONTHS! We are not talking a blip here, this has gone on for an incredible amount of time.
If he'd tried, 433, 352, 442 or anything else, either starting or as a reaction to what is happening in front of his eyes, and it still didn't work, he may get some slack, but he's just too limited. Or stubborn.
ALL of the players can't be rubbish, surely?
He's tried every combination of a front 3, or a back 3, every senior CM has had a crack and both experienced pro's and young newcomers have tried, yet nothing has worked and he STILL insists on this rigid 343. It's just bizarre.
He simply hasn't tried anything to halt this slide, despite his words, his actions just remain the same.
Never has there been a more obvious case of "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" Whoever said it, the answer is the same. MADNESS.
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He can only blame the players if he's tried everything possible to get the best out of them, he hasn't he's just done the same thing over and over, despite it clearly not working for MONTHS! We are not talking a blip here, this has gone on for an incredible amount of time.
If he'd tried, 433, 352, 442 or anything else, either starting or as a reaction to what is happening in front of his eyes, and it still didn't work, he may get some slack, but he's just too limited. Or stubborn.
ALL of the players can't be rubbish, surely?
He's tried every combination of a front 3, or a back 3, every senior CM has had a crack and both experienced pro's and young newcomers have tried, yet nothing has worked and he STILL insists on this rigid 343. It's just bizarre.
He simply hasn't tried anything to halt this slide, despite his words, his actions just remain the same.
Never has there been a more obvious case of "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" Whoever said it, the answer is the same. MADNESS.
Agree with this , while some of those players have stayed far too long . I wouldn't say they have thrown the towel fully but look lost and uncomfortable playing how he asks , the 3 up top doesn't work and the 5/3 at the back looks to be failing now .Val's rigid system as ground the players and fans down with his football by numbers , totally self inflicted.
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He can only blame the players if he's tried everything possible to get the best out of them, he hasn't he's just done the same thing over and over, despite it clearly not working for MONTHS! We are not talking a blip here, this has gone on for an incredible amount of time.
If he'd tried, 433, 352, 442 or anything else, either starting or as a reaction to what is happening in front of his eyes, and it still didn't work, he may get some slack, but he's just too limited. Or stubborn.
ALL of the players can't be rubbish, surely?
He's tried every combination of a front 3, or a back 3, every senior CM has had a crack and both experienced pro's and young newcomers have tried, yet nothing has worked and he STILL insists on this rigid 343. It's just bizarre.
He simply hasn't tried anything to halt this slide, despite his words, his actions just remain the same.
Never has there been a more obvious case of "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" Whoever said it, the answer is the same. MADNESS.
This is exactly how I feel. Brilliantly put.
I’d have sympathy if he was trying different things. He clearly can’t or just won’t.
Either way, that alone screams get rid now. It’s not going to get any better.
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We now have a small window of opportunity to change things before Sheffield United. Option A is to do nothing and see how it goes. Think we all the the outcome of that idea, and god forbid what will happen if we get a drubbing. Option 2 is to say goodbye to Val, and either put one of the coaches in charge until we find a suitable candidate. Personally at this time of year I'm not sure who we would attract. Any candidate that is doing well for their club is unlikely to want to leave for this mess of a team. Shame Hodgson isn't available as I think he would have been ideal until the end of the season. We don't want another big ego coming in though. Now is not the time to experiment, we need a wise old head in the short term, to give us time to assess where we go.
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Led to believe that he has a one year break clause.
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Agree with this , while some of those players have stayed far too long . I wouldn't say they have thrown the towel fully but look lost and uncomfortable playing how he asks , the 3 up top doesn't work and the 5/3 at the back looks to be failing now .Val's rigid system as ground the players and fans down with his football by numbers , totally self inflicted.
The biggest problem with the system is it's driven all spontaneity out of the team, they are like some old piece of machinery clanking away getting nowhere.
If I was in a situation like that I don't think I would be able to give of my best and certainly wouldn't be enjoying it, that goes some way to explaining why the players are so off the pace.
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Led to believe that he has a one year break clause.
As in we just pay up to the end of the season and then 12 months on top?
If so then he will be removed this week. The clubs lack of support for him, not a single person has issued anything, says it all. I just hope they’re talking to candidates now. Frankly anyone could get this squad in the play offs.
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The biggest problem with the system is it's driven all spontaneity out of the team, they are like some old piece of machinery clanking away getting nowhere.
If I was in a situation like that I don't think I would be able to give of my best and certainly wouldn't be enjoying it, that goes some way to explaining why the players are so off the pace.
As I put Kya , ground down the fans .
Imagine training to do that every week knowing the manager won't change a thing .
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3 at the back only works in a 352 set up
Anyone can see that the 2 in midfield are always overrun which puts runners straight through attacking our back peddling defenders
My favourite would be 352.
But with AC up top I might be inclined to try 5311 it's different I know but
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Led to believe that he has a one year break clause.
I’m sure Spurs did this with Nuno
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Step up Brucey…
There's a near inevitability that he'll rock up here at some point...... :-X .
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Led to believe that he has a one year break clause.
It has taken less than a year to break us
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Led to believe that he has a one year break clause.
Do you mean "review after one year"?
That would be a sensible approach.
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I’m sure Spurs did this with Nuno
The comparisons with Nuno are pretty good, he just never looked right and out of his depth at Spurs but had a decent start, just like Val.
Spurs acted quick as they could see it was never going to get better, which now 90% of Albion fans can see is there same with Val.
Our board aren’t great but I just can’t believe any of of them want him at the next home game.
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I actually wouldn't mind if we were 7th or 8th but trying to play a balanced , watchable type of football with players in the side on merit not having had a good spell 3 months ago.
Trying to build something and maybe a few more youth players as VI spoke of in the Summer , 95% would accept that and honest mistakes but frankly VI's crazy reluctance to switch shape and the same core players and style every single week has killed any hope or support for him .
I can no longer defend him or look elsewhere for blame ( although there is ) , no performances ...no points ..
Val out .
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Led to believe that he has a one year break clause.
With our board that means they will just let him see the season out and throw the season more than likely.
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That’s the issue for a lot of people. We’ve got a lot worse, take the first 10 games away and we’re in a relegation battle. Now when you look at the state of the league and you utter those words how on earth is this man still the manager.
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I actually wouldn't mind if we were 7th or 8th but trying to play a balanced , watchable type of football with players in the side on merit not having had a good spell 3 months ago.
Trying to build something and maybe a few more youth players as VI spoke of in the Summer , 95% would accept that and honest mistakes but frankly VI's crazy reluctance to switch shape and the same core players and style every single week has killed any hope or support for him .
I can no longer defend him or look elsewhere for blame ( although there is ) , no performances ...no points ..
Val out .
That's it. If he was trying he'd have more support. He is not trying to change anything and hasn't tried to change anything.
Whether it's arrogance or stupidity i am past caring. Get him gone.
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That’s the issue for a lot of people. We’ve got a lot worse, take the first 10 games away and we’re in a relegation battle. Now when you look at the state of the league and you utter those words how on earth is this man still the manager.
13 pts from the last 12 games. Inexcusable.
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13 pts from the last 12 games. Inexcusable.
As he loves stats so much why can’t some of the local press remind of this.
He’s had hardly any pressure from the media.
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As he loves stats so much why can’t some of the local press remind of this.
He’s had hardly any pressure from the media.
It's very odd indeed but then everything about the bloke is odd.
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The biggest problem with the system is it's driven all spontaneity out of the team, they are like some old piece of machinery clanking away getting nowhere.
If I was in a situation like that I don't think I would be able to give of my best and certainly wouldn't be enjoying it, that goes some way to explaining why the players are so off the pace.
That is it for me, no spontaneity. It seems like he has fixed roles and when you are picked in a position you must do as planned. Unfortunately as someone once said, no plan survives contact with the enemy.
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Do you mean "review after one year"?
That would be a sensible approach.
Which should mean we could determine it early, pay him for those “short†months and whatever compensation sacking him after a year would have been ?
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I wouldn't expect him to be hooked until 11.59 pm tomorrow.
We need an excuse not to give his replacement any last minute transfers.
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Led to believe that he has a one year break clause.
If that’s correct can they not just put him on gardening leave until that year is up then sack him cheaply. It would make the decision not to act all the more bizarre if it’s not actually going to cost us his full four year compensation.
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If that’s correct can they not just put him on gardening leave until that year is up then sack him cheaply. It would make the decision not to act all the more bizarre if it’s not actually going to cost us his full four year compensation.
I think they already know he’s done but they can’t get the next appointment wrong. They either go for someone until end of season, which I don’t like, or get someone in who’s going to get us up in the next couple of years.
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He won’t make next home game. The club won’t won’t the trouble.
Imagine how bad it was against PNE and double it.
You may well be right. I recall you saying this months ago though. Let’s wait and see. For what it’s worth I believe his position is now untenable. I do though remain bl..dy angry with these so called players.
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You may well be right. I recall you saying this months ago though. Let’s wait and see. For what it’s worth I believe his position is now untenable. I do though remain bl..dy angry with these so called players.
Nobody is more stunned than me that they’ve stuck with him, it was painfully obvious in November that he was massively out of his depth.
The players aren’t innocent but we shall see how they perform when a new manager steps up. I think we’ll see a huge difference when this deadweight is lifted off them.
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If that’s correct can they not just put him on gardening leave until that year is up then sack him cheaply. It would make the decision not to act all the more bizarre if it’s not actually going to cost us his full four year compensation.
It would have been really stupid to not have a compensation payout limit set but with those running the club i really couldn't be sure.
If he's only got 1 years pay guaranteed why is he still here? The damage he is doing will eclipse that if we persevere.
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Which should mean we could determine it early, pay him for those “short†months and whatever compensation sacking him after a year would have been ?
Possibly, but I believe taking that approach could have ramifications in that the club hasn't given him the time to meet his set criteria.
Apart from the transfer fee for Dike, (& assuming that wages are under control), I don't think we will have spent a significant amount of the parachute money. That added to the money the club got for Pereria, would put us in a relatively strong financial position for next season. Which means they've bought a bit of time.
If/when VI goes & they appoint one of the old faithfuls, it would mean tearing up the re-build strategy, I'm not sure they're ready to do that just yet.
I wouldn't be in the least surprised to see another left field appointment.
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Possibly, but I believe taking that approach could have ramifications in that the club hasn't given him the time to meet his set criteria.
Apart from the transfer fee for Dike, (& assuming that wages are under control), I don't think we will have spent a significant amount of the parachute money. That added to the money the club got for Pereria, would put us in a relatively strong financial position for next season. Which means they've bought a bit of time.
If/when VI goes & they appoint one of the old faithfuls, it would mean tearing up the re-build strategy, I'm not sure they're ready to do that just yet.
I wouldn't be in the least surprised to see another left field appointment.
I think they’ll want someone who, at a minimum, has got promotion from the league.
That really limits options.
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I think they’ll want someone who, at a minimum, has got promotion from the league.
That really limits options.
As long as they have experience of a promotion or TWO, are of German nationality and currently unemployed, they would be the prime requisites for me 8)
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If you think we will accept "jokes" such as the one we have removed you are on the wrong forum.
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I actually wouldn't mind if we were 7th or 8th but trying to play a balanced , watchable type of football with players in the side on merit not having had a good spell 3 months ago.
Trying to build something and maybe a few more youth players as VI spoke of in the Summer , 95% would accept that and honest mistakes but frankly VI's crazy reluctance to switch shape and the same core players and style every single week has killed any hope or support for him .
I can no longer defend him or look elsewhere for blame ( although there is ) , no performances ...no points ..
Val out .
I don't think anyone would argue with this mate. We all want a long term plan that we can buy into and see us gradually improve. A, we are all in it together, sort of mentality, similar to Megson. The football wasn't great but we had a solidarity.
What Val has done is the opposite, he has one way and it has alienated and divided everyone, players and fans alike. He has to go.
That means probably yet another stop gap, short term appointment, but remember, that's what Roy was to a degree, as was Moyes at West Ham. Sometimes the fit is just right, let's hope we get lucky with the next one.
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The dross that Forest are serving up at the moment is just reminding me how we’ve managed to stay top 6 for so long when we’ve been so awful.
With the right man in we can easily finish top 6, the standard is shocking.
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The dross that Forest are serving up at the moment is just reminding me how we’ve managed to stay top 6 for so long when we’ve been so awful.
With the right man in we can easily finish top 6, the standard is shocking.
Lot of sides struggling to put a run of consistent form together. Bournemouth lucky to win at Barnsley by all accounts and Fulham held by Blackpool. I agree the overall standard in the league isn't great but our team is a poor imitation of previous promotion squads, we have 5/6 good players and 15 average ones. Overall the league isn't great but is ultra competitive. The mid-table teams on their day are a handful. Preston being a good example.
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The dross that Forest are serving up at the moment is just reminding me how we’ve managed to stay top 6 for so long when we’ve been so awful.
With the right man in we can easily finish top 6, the standard is shocking.
It's extremely poor this season and i normally consider this a very tough league to get promoted from.
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Lot of sides struggling to put a run of consistent form together. Bournemouth lucky to win at Barnsley by all accounts and Fulham held by Blackpool. I agree the overall standard in the league isn't great but our team is a poor imitation of previous promotion squads, we have 5/6 good players and 15 average ones. Overall the league isn't great but is ultra competitive. The mid-table teams on their day are a handful. Preston being a good example.
I think we’ve got a ‘decent’ 11, certainly a top 4 with the right manager. But I agree that the depth of previous years is seriously lacking. We don’t look like we can change a game with subs. Although the way Val uses subs we don’t have a chance.
We should have used the loan market a lot better this year for sure.
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It's extremely poor this season and i normally consider this a very tough league to get promoted from.
It is still a proper slog and you have a lot of sides, about 10 of them like Preston & Millwall who will die on a hill to take points off you, so it's not easy, even without the usual 2/3 high quality sides running away with it.
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I think we’ve got a ‘decent’ 11, certainly a top 4 with the right manager. But I agree that the depth of previous years is seriously lacking. We don’t look like we can change a game with subs. Although the way Val uses subs we don’t have a chance.
We should have used the loan market a lot better this year for sure.
Careful you even sound like Val!
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Careful you even sound like Val!
😂😂😂 he’s always talked a good game. His problem is he can’t manage to produce one from a team.
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It is still a proper slog and you have a lot of sides, about 10 of them like Preston & Millwall who will die on a hill to take points off you, so it's not easy, even without the usual 2/3 high quality sides running away with it.
I'm not saying the other 23 teams are not trying. The opposite. They lack quality all they can do is try. We should be playing it around them.
We usually look better playing football on the floor rather than vertical valball
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I'm not saying the other 23 teams are not trying. The opposite. They lack quality all they can do is try. We should be playing it around them.
We usually look better playing football on the floor rather than vertical valball
Absolutely, Coventry away being the last time we managed to look like a superior force. Hence I think Val has shot himself in the foot by not sticking with TGH in central midfield.
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Absolutely, Coventry away being the last time we managed to look like a superior force. Hence I think Val has shot himself in the foot by not sticking with TGH in central midfield.
I agree but he loves Livermore so he's only got himself to blame.
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I'm not saying the other 23 teams are not trying. The opposite. They lack quality all they can do is try. We should be playing it around them.
We usually look better playing football on the floor rather than vertical valball
Correct me if i'm wrong but on recollection what few goals we have scored of late have mainly been when we work the ball forward with a decent pass so yes , play bloody football.
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Correct me if i'm wrong but on recollection what few goals we have scored of late have mainly been when we work the ball forward with a decent pass so yes , play bloody football.
The brief time we try and play football we generally look much better IMO
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Correct me if i'm wrong but on recollection what few goals we have scored of late have mainly been when we work the ball forward with a decent pass so yes , play bloody football.
Agreed and why we tend to play half decent when Robinson is on the pitch, one of the few we have who can link up. Another Val selection decision that has annoyed me, the rotations and benching of him all the time.
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If VI does go & we default to who we know, there's only one outcome.
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Apologies if I missed something but is the silence from the club normal. Surely they haven't all stopped in bed on Sunday following all the unrest from this week.A statement of any kind? Support for the manager? Vote of confidence? No confidence? Going nowhere, everything's as it is, carry on?
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stuff will be going on behind the scenes here, but its Chinese new year and it will take a few days for the owner to authorise any action (In my opinion).
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I’ve read reasons for delays and if they are the case, then they are more indictment on the board and the owners for not having discussed the number of scenarios in the event of.
Very poor Albion, but it is what we have come to expect in recent years.
JRP would have pulled the trigger long before now
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Our well known ITK Twitter friend “Sooty†tweeted
Things are unfolding behind the scenes at the Albion... Valerian Ismael exit now just a matter of when... All to do with severance of contract...Imminent
Make of it what you will
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Our well known ITK Twitter friend “Sooty†tweeted
Things are unfolding behind the scenes at the Albion... Valerian Ismael exit now just a matter of when... All to do with severance of contract...Imminent
Make of it what you will
I don’t think anyone is going to surprised if it’s announced in the next few days. I just hope we’ve got some people lined up as I’m not a fan of caretaker until the end of the season scenarios but I do think it will be the route they go.
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I don’t think anyone is going to surprised if it’s announced in the next few days. I just hope we’ve got some people lined up as I’m not a fan of caretaker until the end of the season scenarios but I do think it will be the route they go.
I agree with your caretaker comment as it becomes another comfort zone for players already too comfortable
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Just read an article about Roy Hodgson. A great quote from it was “What good coaches do is adapt to the situation, the players they’ve got, to the opponents they’re facing and to the match situationâ€. The total opposite of what Val has done here.
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It's sad. No one enjoys Managers being sacked.
The loyalty shown to Furlong, Phillips, Livermore, Hugill (when here) was utterly baffling.
I've never been less interested in following WBA matches, and I'm 46.
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Just read an article about Roy Hodgson. A great quote from it was “What good coaches do is adapt to the situation, the players they’ve got, to the opponents they’re facing and to the match situationâ€. The total opposite of what Val has done here.
Bill Shankley quote “ Football is a simple game made complicated by people who should know better.â€
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It's sad. No one enjoys Managers being sacked.
The loyalty shown to Furlong, Phillips, Livermore, Hugill (when here) was utterly baffling.
I've never been less interested in following WBA matches, and I'm 46.
All things being equal, you have a long and painful journey still in front of you ;)
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All things being equal, you have a long and painful journey still in front of you ;)
We did our best in the 1990s but we were skint. We had poor players and Managers generally did what they could.
The reason I feel like I do because I've never known such a shameful waste of resources.
Val has been horrific since December 4th, when our best team was laid on a plate by accident.
He has completely pooh himself in the foot match after match since.
We genuinely
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Picking up steam now on Twitter that he's gone.
An ex boss rumoured to be top choice, cant name them obviously.
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Picking up steam now on Twitter that he's gone.
An ex boss rumoured to be top choice, cant name them obviously.
Hope you’re right Gaz - it would help to make a very bad weekend a little better!!!
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Picking up steam now on Twitter that he's gone.
An ex boss rumoured to be top choice, cant name them obviously.
I've seen an ex-boss rumored I can't see it happening myself.
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Picking up steam now on Twitter that he's gone.
An ex boss rumoured to be top choice, cant name them obviously.
Return of the King, sorry, chocolate fire guard........ :-X ?
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Sounds like they will be trying to agree a 'transfer fee' for a new manager tomorrow rather than a player.
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Sounds like they will be trying to agree a 'transfer fee' for a new manager tomorrow rather than a player.
Blackburn will never let him go
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I've seen an ex-boss rumored I can't see it happening myself.
Apparently the ex-boss is open to coming back if compo can be agreed. Guess we will find out tomorrow!
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Lee Johnson Sunderland coach after 6-0 whupping by Bolton and Sunderland are third in League 1.
Wish our board were of that mind with far more reason to order a taxi for Valerie!
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This guy is usually good, just tweeted
"Ekrem KONUR
@Ekremkonur
West Bromwich do not intend to continue with manager Valerien Ismael. #WBA"
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Sounding promising.
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The one they’re talking about is out of contract in the summer.
An Albion special. 😂😂😂
Oh Val, normally I’d feel sorry for people getting the sack but given you’ve shown a complete disregard for the fans and for the game of football in general I hope to never hear your name again.
I hear Sunderland are looking for a new man. Fancy it?
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Apparently the ex-boss is open to coming back if compo can be agreed. Guess we will find out tomorrow!
That would be a slight change in football style!
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That would be a slight change in football style!
The understatement of the year so far :D
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Potential new mans style would be much more suited to the squad IMO.
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Potential new mans style would be much more suited to the squad IMO.
Might see a new Grady, especially if he's got soft feet.
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Might see a new Grady, especially if he's got soft feet.
Absolute ‘artist’ is Diangana…
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Might see a new Grady, especially if he's got soft feet.
I think we will see new versions of nearly everyone to be fair.
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Might see a new Jake 8)
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If the rumoured ex manager is true- I do hope we go and get some footballing centre midfielders tomorrow.
I wonder if we might see a short term option with a view to a permanent appointment like the ex manager in the summer as it would be easier to agree.
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christ I would love that to happen
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Might see a new Jake 8)
One that doesn't feature ;D
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Daren't get my hopes up. I'd be happy with 'that thing that we are not discussing at all' if it happened.
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I can sell my shipping container of neck braces then, dammit !
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But why would "he who can not be named" leave his current club to come here?
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But why would "he who can not be named" leave his current club to come here?
Hard to see why he would to be honest
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I’d be staggered if the appointment happened. It just doesn’t look possible.
Be interesting to see what happens tomorrow now, anyone think we’ll bring any other players in? The Val situation has sort of masked the whole window.
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We need a centre mid for sure but if Vals staying whats the point. It's the dynamic duo till the end of days with him.
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Apparently the ex-boss is open to coming back if compo can be agreed. Guess we will find out tomorrow!
Whoa!
You're reading too much into speculation from an ex WBA employee.
He said certain gentleman is out of contract in the summer & might be interested.
On another tangent, Lee Johnson has been sacked by Sunderland, might be a good diagonal move for our current Head Coach.
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Whoa!
You're reading too much into speculation from an ex WBA employee.
He said certain gentleman is out of contract in the summer & might be interested.
On another tangent, Lee Johnson has been sacked by Sunderland, might be a good diagonal move for our current Head Coach.
I have seen that comment. I have also seen others. I think we all can on Twitter.
As for Sunderland they are not underdogs, i think he'd pull them down too.
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Don’t you just love unconfirmed and outrages gossip? ;D
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Don’t you just love unconfirmed and outrages gossip? ;D
On a Sunday nght for sure ;D
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Don’t you just love unconfirmed and outrages gossip? ;D
Stoppit, it's the only potential good news we've had for weeks.
Even if it is made up :D
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On a Sunday nght for sure ;D
Yes, work and back to reality for the proletariat and a lie in for the retired 😅
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To be honest I reckon the team he took up could probably still get a top 6 in this league playing at their age now.
It’ll never happen but can the first part, the removal of Val, happen tonight. I’ll sleep much better.
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Yes, work and back to reality for the proletariat and a lie in for the retired 😅
I envy the retired but they have paid their dues so no complaints. We will all get there one day ( he says hopefully)
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To be honest I reckon the team he took up could probably still get a top 6 in this league playing at their age now.
It’ll never happen but can the first part, the removal of Val, happen tonight. I’ll sleep much better.
Whether the rumour is true or not i don't care. I just want Val gone while there's still a chance of making the play-offs.
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If THAT rumour came true how long before Sawyers comes back - which personally I’d be as fan of.
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Strangely I was watching his team the other day and thought I wish we had him now.
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I think that guy said he would only manage 1 team in the EFL and it's not us sadly.
bugger, who would that be? Magpie colours?
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bugger, who would that be? Magpie colours?
Yes indeedy.
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I think that guy said he would only manage 1 team in the EFL and it's not us sadly.
He also slagged off the blue side of Liverpool when he was working for the red side.
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Knew I'd get one
F - off !!!
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He also slagged off the blue side of Liverpool when he was working for the red side.
It went really really really badly for him there. Was never meant to be i'd say
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He never stood a chance
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Don’t you just love unconfirmed and outrages gossip? ;D
Neither did any of his dinners, what goes around comes around ;D .
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Anyway, back to Valerien Ismael…
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Anyway, back to Valerien Ismael…
Please no. 😂
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🙏
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Anyway, back to Valerien Ismael…
Are they re appointing him before he's even been sacked then. Crikey, that was a quick turnaround ;D .
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The club have only tweeted once today to congratulate the women's team. Normally we would get a tweet saying "we go again". Something is brewing surely ?.
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There have been a number of low points in our history when we have experience similar turmoil.
During those times I have never felt needed more by the club, more so than during the good times.
I love the Albion COYB!!!!
It’s must be a lot easier to follow a successful team
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The club have only tweeted once today to congratulate the women's team. Normally we would get a tweet saying "we go again". Something is brewing surely ?.
There’s been none of those slow videos either.
I think we may be at the end of the road as it seems clear that we cannot continue in our current form.
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There’s been none of those slow videos either.
I think we may be at the end of the road as it seems clear that we cannot continue in our current form.
To be honest they probably couldn’t slow the footage down of our play from the last 2 games as it would just be a photo then.
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To be honest they probably couldn’t slow the footage down of our play from the last 2 games as it would just be a photo then.
In fairness some of the players have been moving slow enough to feature in a painting.
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The club have only tweeted once today to congratulate the women's team. Normally we would get a tweet saying "we go again". Something is brewing surely ?.
Yeah noticed this too. Although it’s probably more due to the club knowing that the comments will all be filled with the same thing so it’s probably safer to just not post anything.
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Yeah, that was tongue in cheek. More likely appoint Ossie Ardiles with Keith Burkinshaw and resign Kevin Donovan.
I blooming loved Ossie!
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Our well known ITK Twitter friend “Sooty†tweeted
Things are unfolding behind the scenes at the Albion... Valerian Ismael exit now just a matter of when... All to do with severance of contract...Imminent
Make of it what you will
Given at least 60% chance the manager will get pushed overboard before the next match it is quite easy for keyboard warriors to throw that out currently and then claim to in the know once it is confirmed.
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I blooming loved Ossie!
Well 92/93 I was inside Oldbury town hall with the team & players at the promotion party. Ossie made a big rousing speech which ended with "next stop the premiership". A few weeks later he had left to manager Spurs, so he was sort of right!
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I believe that relationship is beyond repair from what happened in the past between them but I guess you can never say never.
The same one who the players let down badly in lockdown and ended up just limping over the finishing line when Brentford bottled it when we had blown it?
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Well 92/93 I was inside Oldbury town hall with the team & players at the promotion party. Ossie made a big rousing speech which ended with "next stop the premiership". A few weeks later he had left to manager Spurs, so he was sort of right!
Yeah it did all come to a crushing and abrupt halt but he got out of that hellish division so I've forgiven him over time.
The same one who the players let down badly in lockdown and ended up just limping over the finishing line when Brentford bottled it when we had blown it?
Yep he's unemployed
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I know talk of next manager is forbidden, but I can only imagine it being a matter of when and in the meantime, we need to be begging Allardyce to finish what he started here with the promise of being able to completely overhaul the squad in the summer.
I truly hope not.
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There are two immediate things that the Board must do.
1. Decide whether to sack Ismael now.
2. Have a plan for replacing him.
I appreciate that the forum rules ban discussion of the second while we are still encumbered with the incumbent, but realistically it’s a vital part of the equation because you can hardly consider what to do about Ismael without us thinking about what the alternatives might be. It really has to be part of the debate for any of the discussion to make much sense.
Perhaps the strongest argument for retaining Ismael may be a lack of viable and attractive options, though I’m not personally persuaded by that view. Almost anything must be better than this.
Notwithstanding the forum’s rules I sincerely hope the Albion Board has itself been having frank and unfettered conversations about point 2, because to fail to do so would be beyond negligent.
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There are two immediate things that the Board must do.
1. Decide whether to sack Ismael now.
2. Have a plan for replacing him.
I appreciate that the forum rules ban discussion of the second while we are still encumbered with the incumbent, but realistically it’s a vital part of the equation because you can hardly consider what to do about Ismael without us thinking about what the alternatives might be. It really has to be part of the debate for any of the discussion to make much sense.
Perhaps the strongest argument for retaining Ismael may be a lack of viable and attractive options, though I’m not personally persuaded by that view. Almost anything must be better than this.
Notwithstanding the forum’s rules I sincerely hope the Albion Board has itself been having frank and unfettered conversations about point 2, because to fail to do so would be beyond negligent.
It's happened before :-[
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the longer hes here the quicker we free fall
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Bakey Face...... Anything to report pal??
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Of course all these unsubstantiated rumours of Valerie’s taxi being ordered could be a big wind-up.
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Maybe not a wind-up, but people thinking he's very likely to go soon so are wanting to look like they're in the know. Not personally saying that's what is happening, but it's the kind of thing that some people do.
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Maybe not a wind-up, but people thinking he's very likely to go soon so are wanting to look like they're in the know. Not personally saying that's what is happening, but it's the kind of thing that some people do.
100%. There are some very sad people about.
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100%. There are some very sad people about.
Especially after last week !
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I must admit, I expected there would have been an announcement of some sort by now.
If the club have decided on a parting of the ways, then clearly compensation negotiations would be difficult, but another consideration could be this "saving face" culture in China.
Sacking Val & ripping up the strategy would be an admission of failure, not easy for the Chinese.
I would imagine there have been a lot of conversations over the weekend on whether or not it's possible to make it work.
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09:00 hrs at the very earliest and 10:00 hrs on Wednesdays. They've got to fire up the internet on gas mark zero. It takes a while.
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Not a whisper on the social channels.
Le hoof can’t be staying surely?
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I must admit, I expected there would have been an announcement of some sort by now.
If the club have decided on a parting of the ways, then clearly compensation negotiations would be difficult, but another consideration could be this "saving face" culture in China.
Sacking Val & ripping up the strategy would be an admission of failure, not easy for the Chinese.
I would imagine there have been a lot of conversations over the weekend on whether or not it's possible to make it work.
Some truth in the saving face part I'd imagine , Val was Ken's pick . That said how much worse will they allow things to get before acting ?
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There's a toxic atmosphere at the Albion at the moment. That atmosphere is definitely reflecting on how the players are playing. That toxic atmosphere is being created by the fans.
To prove that point just look how Hugill played for Cardiff yesterday in his 1st game. He looked a total different player. In fact he looked like the player that we now need. 1st game he gets a goal and man of the match.
He was poor when he played for us and sometimes he was getting worse every time he played because he knew what the Albion fans are like. Every mistake creates more pressure.
The same could be said about all this hatred for the manager. Don't forget there are some players who came to this club because of Ismael like Mowatt and Dike. If the manager goes there is a good chance these guys could go also.
Another thing if he does get sacked don't think that they will pay for another manager having paid up Ismael's contract. It will be the same as the Darren Moore sacking, caretaker until the end of the season.
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AllAlbionFans
@AllAlbionFans
·12h
If the name I’ve just been told turns up as our next Manager I will cry, in a good way. You’ll know if it happens and it will be soon Crossed fingers
Been asked not to repeat. Sorry about the vagueness.
Make of it what you will
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AllAlbionFans
@AllAlbionFans
·12h
If the name I’ve just been told turns up as our next Manager I will cry, in a good way. You’ll know if it happens and it will be soon Crossed fingers
Been asked not to repeat. Sorry about the vagueness.
Make of it what you will
Do any of these Twitter accounts have any credibility? Just seems many are desperate for attention.
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AllAlbionFans
@AllAlbionFans
·12h
If the name I’ve just been told turns up as our next Manager I will cry, in a good way. You’ll know if it happens and it will be soon Crossed fingers
Been asked not to repeat. Sorry about the vagueness.
Make of it what you will
another twitter account looking for attention while knowing nothing
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Some truth in the saving face part I'd imagine , Val was Ken's pick . That said how much worse will they allow things to get before acting ?
This ah sodding China he must be deluded if he thinks this situation can carry on without major repercussions amongst the fanbase which will ultimately damage the club.
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I'm confused why people are blaming fans?
Sure, some acted awfully at Millwall, and that shouldn't be happening but to blame them for a toxic atmosphere is a joke, the Manager has made this happen with what he is serving up week in, week out. On the whole the fans have acted well, they only really turned in the PNE game which was a totally unacceptable performance.
If the football is good or the fans can see what someone is trying to do we are a pretty supportive bunch. They are just calling out what they are seeing. Which is dross.
I dread to think what the next home game will be like if his face is in the dugout.
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AllAlbionFans
@AllAlbionFans
·12h
If the name I’ve just been told turns up as our next Manager I will cry, in a good way. You’ll know if it happens and it will be soon Crossed fingers
Been asked not to repeat. Sorry about the vagueness.
Make of it what you will
I have and put it in the bin, along with Sootys blindingly obvious 'guess'......
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I'm confused why people are blaming fans?
Sure, some acted awfully at Millwall, and that shouldn't be happening but to blame them for a toxic atmosphere is a joke, the Manager has made this happen with what he is serving up week in, week out. On the whole the fans have acted well, they only really turned in the PNE game which was a totally unacceptable performance.
If the football is good or the fans can see what someone is trying to do we are a pretty supportive bunch. They are just calling out what they are seeing. Which is dross.
I dread to think what the next home game will be like if his face is in the dugout.
Agree, we have been on a bad run for 3mths with the results and performances getting worse I think we are more patient than most and we don't have to look far for examples.
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Players are 100% affected by the current atmosphere (some more than others).
The ones most mentally weak won't want to play at all.
Players nowadays are pampered and don't have the resilience of players of old.
Basically WBA fans are demanding personnel and tactical changes. The more stubborn Ismael gets, the more poisonous the situation becomes.
Ismael can't care about his job, if he continues in this way.
If the Manager makes changes, then I'm sure the mood would lift, even if that doesn't bring the short term wins he requires.
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They've posted on Facebook, about next 2 away games.
Getting an absolute battering,
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Agree, we have been on a bad run for 3mths with the results and performances getting worse I think we are more patient than most and we don't have to look far for examples.
The drama of the late win aside the away support began to turn at Peterborough. This gathered pace at Huddersfield and the rumblings gained more of a voice at Blackpool. They rose again at QPR and Millwall was toxic. I know because I was there for all of them plus more. Thankfully I wasn't present at Swansea and Fulham though.
The home support has been growing increasingly frustrated. The atmosphere which hasn't been particularly good for a number of years have been disgruntled for quite some time. I heard isolated shouts of Ismael out in the Smethwick two months ago. Maybe more.
The idea that we have a patient and tolerant support base is an urban myth and has been for quite some time. Long before Valerien Ismael turned up I might add. Whatever anyone's thoughts on our style it very definitely hasn't taken three months to turn this time either.
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They've posted on Facebook, about next 2 away games.
Getting an absolute battering,
It’s a very good way to gauge opinion though.
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It’s a very good way to gauge opinion though.
Do they really need to gauge opinion? 90% of the fanbase wanted him out before Millwall. Notch that up to 94% now.
The club are in big danger here.
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The drama of the late win aside the away support began to turn at Peterborough. This gathered pace at Huddersfield and the rumblings gained more of a voice at Blackpool. They rose again at QPR and Millwall was toxic. I know because I was there for all of them plus more. Thankfully I wasn't present at Swansea and Fulham though.
The home support has been growing increasingly frustrated. The atmosphere which hasn't been particularly good for a number of years have been disgruntled for quite some time. I heard isolated shouts of Ismael out in the Smethwick two months ago. Maybe more.
The idea that we have a patient and tolerant support base is an urban myth and has been for quite some time. Long before Valerien Ismael turned up I might add. Whatever anyone's thoughts on our style it very definitely hasn't taken three months to turn this time either.
I was at Blackpool away and it was more than rumblings, it was discontent with the usual shyte.
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If the club seriously think Val is going to turn things round that fans are going to return and things are going to just get better again they are absolutely deluded. Gates are going to get worse and worse, season ticket sales are going to be halved and all that has a negative knock on effect that will see the club slide into the Championship wilderness.
The longer they delay this sacking the worse things are going to be.
For God's sake can't they do something right for once? He has to go NOW!
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Do they really need to gauge opinion? 90% of the fanbase wanted him out before Millwall. Notch that up to 94% now.
The club are in big danger here.
Yes ….not to sure which poll you are using 😄
But they will want to be absolutely certain…
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Yes ….not to sure which poll you are using 😄
But they will want to be absolutely certain…
Maybe they're calling every season ticket holder with a 'Val, yes or no? :D
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I was at Blackpool away and it was more than rumblings, it was discontent with the usual shyte.
Which is why I said they gathered more of a voice. The dissolution was very firmly in place by Huddersfield though.
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The drama of the late win aside the away support began to turn at Peterborough. This gathered pace at Huddersfield and the rumblings gained more of a voice at Blackpool. They rose again at QPR and Millwall was toxic. I know because I was there for all of them plus more. Thankfully I wasn't present at Swansea and Fulham though.
The home support has been growing increasingly frustrated. The atmosphere which hasn't been particularly good for a number of years have been disgruntled for quite some time. I heard isolated shouts of Ismael out in the Smethwick two months ago. Maybe more.
The idea that we have a patient and tolerant support base is an urban myth and has been for quite some time. Long before Valerien Ismael turned up I might add. Whatever anyone's thoughts on our style it very definitely hasn't taken three months to turn this time either.
As a regular, I value your input I'm just an armchair fan now relying on what I read here and my knowledge of how things were in the past.
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There is still time today but the next 12 hours are important.
If we sack Val today then things hopefully improve.
If we dont sack Val and they are giving him time, they have to do some wheeling and dealing to help him and bring in some fresh faces as things are stale and not just working, but judging the last performances, at rock bottom.
The worry would be is we dont sack him and dont bring in new faces either.
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There is still time today but the next 12 hours are important.
If we sack Val today then things hopefully improve.
If we dont sack Val and they are giving him time, they have to do some wheeling and dealing to help him and bring in some fresh faces as things are stale and not just working, but judging the last performances, at rock bottom.
The worry would be is we dont sack him and dont bring in new faces either.
Our abysmal form coinciding with the transfer window is disastrous really. If VI does get the Spanish today then any new guy will have to work with what we have got, or if he does get a stay of execution, given his utter stubbornness not to change married to the players obvious attitude and the slight unrest with the natives, I think we can well and truly write this season off.
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How is he still here >:(
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There is still time today but the next 12 hours are important.
If we sack Val today then things hopefully improve.
If we dont sack Val and they are giving him time, they have to do some wheeling and dealing to help him and bring in some fresh faces as things are stale and not just working, but judging the last performances, at rock bottom.
The worry would be is we dont sack him and dont bring in new faces either.
Your posts are incredibly sensible and I totally agree
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How is he still here >:(
sack him once the window slams shut then you don’t have to have uncomfortable talks with any would be manager over potential signings. Cynical, but believable I think.
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It's now gone 8pm in China. The window for him to be sacked today is surely almost up?
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How is he still here >:(
I can only assume that he has some compromising photo's of 'Ken', I cannot think of any other reason [other than money of course]
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Genuinely stunned at what is going on at the club, we've done stupid things in the past but this is beyond even our levels.
To not even issue any sort of statement is just making the whole situation worst. I work in media PR and this is a textbook case of how you don't handle a situation. We really are a mess.
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Genuinely stunned at what is going on at the club, we've done stupid things in the past but this is beyond even our levels.
To not even issue any sort of statement is just making the whole situation worst. I work in media PR and this is a textbook case of how you don't handle a situation. We really are a mess.
Yep. We really are in back him or sack him territory. Silence is only fueling the anger.
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If he stays we could do with him having to isolate for a couple of games, see how we do without him.
Granted, on matchday, we could just use a cardboard cut-out, but surely training would improve?
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Genuinely stunned at what is going on at the club, we've done stupid things in the past but this is beyond even our levels.
To not even issue any sort of statement is just making the whole situation worst. I work in media PR and this is a textbook case of how you don't handle a situation. We really are a mess.
That won't change until Lai finally sells up
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Genuinely stunned at what is going on at the club, we've done stupid things in the past but this is beyond even our levels.
To not even issue any sort of statement is just making the whole situation worst. I work in media PR and this is a textbook case of how you don't handle a situation. We really are a mess.
Imagine a Sunderland style fly on the wall documentary right now :o ???
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With the window still open club might be preoccupied with late deals either in or out and will make statement tomorrow. if nothing happens then they might be waiting to see if Val can turn things around which I don’t think he can, or like Pardew it becomes so embarrassing that he goes by mutual consent which would save club a few quid.
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Joseph Masi just Tweeted
Appreciate everyone's heads are elsewhere. But I've got no concrete information on Val's future at the minute despite endless hours of trying. In terms of deadline day, I'm expecting a player or two could leave on loan. But otherwise it's looking quiet on the transfer front #wba
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Keep hearing (from social media ) it's a issue with paying Val up , how true that is I don't know .
Personally suspect he might be staying .
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Genuinely stunned at what is going on at the club, we've done stupid things in the past but this is beyond even our levels.
To not even issue any sort of statement is just making the whole situation worst. I work in media PR and this is a textbook case of how you don't handle a situation. We really are a mess.
Well they are not going to say something like 'we are discussing his future etc', its either the vote of confidence or the bullet, and we have not had the 'vote of confidence'.......
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Joseph Masi just Tweeted
Appreciate everyone's heads are elsewhere. But I've got no concrete information on Val's future at the minute despite endless hours of trying. In terms of deadline day, I'm expecting a player or two could leave on loan. But otherwise it's looking quiet on the transfer front #wba
An honest post from Masi, cheers Dave ;)
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One of the Twitter "ITK" accounts said last night they are just going to throw the season away and leave him in charge and remove him for free in the summer which matches what someone said on here about the club having a 1 year break clause.
That account is not known to me personally so no idea how accurate they are normally.
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If that is the case, it is going to be an extremely toxic last few months of the season :-X
The vitriol at every game will be something to behold
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I am hoping it is because we have no game next Sat they are waiting to get the next one in at the same time, one announcement
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One of the Twitter "ITK" accounts said last night they are just going to throw the season away and leave him in charge and remove him for free in the summer which matches what someone said on here about the club having a 1 year break clause.
That account is not known to me personally so no idea how accurate they are normally.
If its @WestBromTN then I've never seen him get a rumour correct. I think it's safe to say none of these self confessed twitter ITK's have a clue what's going on
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If its @WestBromTN then I've never seen him get a rumour correct. I think it's safe to say none of these self confessed twitter ITK's have a clue what's going on
No it wasn't him. That account is the pits.
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Well they are not going to say something like 'we are discussing his future etc', its either the vote of confidence or the bullet, and we have not had the 'vote of confidence'.......
They've had almost 48 hours. A statement should have been issued yesterday either way. They shouldn't need to ask Daddy in China, as last time they did they made a huge mistake. The lack of accountability is utterly shocking.
They'll lose 1,000s of fans over this and they wont comeback for a very long time. We are most certainly heading for a Sunderland situation. The protests against Val and the ownership will be every home game.
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One of the Twitter "ITK" accounts said last night they are just going to throw the season away and leave him in charge and remove him for free in the summer which matches what someone said on here about the club having a 1 year break clause.
That account is not known to me personally so no idea how accurate they are normally.
I can't see them announcing a decision of that nature so I anticipate a very difficult few months, if true.
Then again, if the manager and the players are all in the loop, it may just ease tensions a bit and who knows, squad and coach may just find a balance. More likely go the other way though and the coach loses any modicum of respect he had left and the players down tools all together.
It really does seem to be a lose - lose situation right now.
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One of the Twitter "ITK" accounts said last night they are just going to throw the season away and leave him in charge and remove him for free in the summer which matches what someone said on here about the club having a 1 year break clause.
That account is not known to me personally so no idea how accurate they are normally.
I wonder how many season ticket holders they will lose if that happens plus thousands disappearing between now and the end of the season, these people really can only see as far as the end of their nose.
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If its @WestBromTN then I've never seen him get a rumour correct. I think it's safe to say none of these self confessed twitter ITK's have a clue what's going on
There’s a lot of talk about a break clause, and it would make sense ….
The idea of the club throwing away the season, does not …
I can’t see no action …..they quite simply have to either sack him…..or state that he is the man and staying.
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We are run by the football/businessman equivalent of ostriches.
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We are run by the football/businessman equivlant of ostriches.
I was just about to say that they seem to be sticking their heads in the sand and just carrying on as if everything is fine.
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The second he is sacked the atmosphere at this football club changes.
For that reason alone he has to go. Every game we draw this out for becomes ever more poisonous.
We could go on a massive change in form but given recent months and the application of the players that is very unlikely.
The delays help nobody.
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I can't see them announcing a decision of that nature so I anticipate a very difficult few months, if true.
Then again, if the manager and the players are all in the loop, it may just ease tensions a bit and who knows, squad and coach may just find a balance. More likely go the other way though and the coach loses any modicum of respect he had left and the players down tools all together.
It really does seem to be a lose - lose situation right now.
It's nigh on impossible to get relegated now this season even with Val in charge so i guess they will just let things peter out if that Twitter account is correct and save money and face more importantly.
If he's left in charge it's going to be vile at the Hawthorns from now on. Glad i didnt get a season ticket this year.
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I was just about to say that they seem to be sticking their heads in the sand and just carrying on as if everything is fine.
From what that account said that is the plan. No fuss, no drama, no sacking,no compo, walk away free in the summer. Forget this season existed essentially. Awful if true.
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I am hoping it is because we have no game next Sat they are waiting to get the next one in at the same time, one announcement
IMO, this is the most likely scenario, sacking VI is the easy bit, finding a replacement will be a bit more difficult.
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From what that account said that is the plan. No fuss, no drama, no sacking,no compo, walk away free in the summer. Forget this season existed essentially. Awful if true.
Makes no sense at all, just pay him up until end of season and then the 12 months.
I'd rather anyone be in charge then Val until the end of the season. A couple fo seats at Millwall will look like childs play when the home fans are served up more and more of his tactics.
Does anyone really believe he could turn things around?
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Have we all reached the apathy stage yet? Surely we can't maintain anger for this long, the Preston game was last Wednesday!
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An honest post from Masi, cheers Dave ;)
I remain yours, xoxo 8)
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Makes no sense at all, just pay him up until end of season and then the 12 months.
I'd rather anyone be in charge then Val until the end of the season. A couple fo seats at Millwall will look like childs play when the home fans are served up more and more of his tactics.
Does anyone really believe he could turn things around?
I dont think they believe he can but he can't do harm in turns of relegating us so for the board it sounds like 'just bury our heads in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong'
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All this just shows their contempt for football fans and their lack of understanding of football.
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Have we all reached the apathy stage yet? Surely we can't maintain anger for this long, the Preston game was last Wednesday!
Been there for months. I switch from apathy to anger frequently.
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There’s a lot of talk about a break clause, and it would make sense ….
The idea of the club throwing away the season, does not …
I can’t see no action …..they quite simply have to either sack him…..or state that he is the man and staying.
Or how about they put him on gardening leave till the end of the season
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Or how about they put him on gardening leave till the end of the season
Works for me. Mind you I wouldn't trust him anywhere that grass grows.
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A lot of people saying he didn't take training today and is in Germany.
We've usually had the awful 'back at it' training social media posts by now with pictures.
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The second he is sacked the atmosphere at this football club changes.
For that reason alone he has to go. Every game we draw this out for becomes ever more poisonous.
We could go on a massive change in form but given recent months and the application of the players that is very unlikely.
The delays help nobody.
spot on post
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A lot of people saying he didn't take training today and is in Germany.
We've usually had the awful 'back at it' training social media posts by now with pictures.
Just to play devils advocate it is easy to make up a narrative and a story that fits with what the majority want but the reality is that we now have a long gap before our next game, his family are in Germany right? Wouldn’t it make sense for him to be having a break regardless? And possibly a couple days off for the players?
In juxtaposition to that it’s deadline day and would be odd for us not to be looking at deals.
We either have to sack him or back him though, you’re completely right about the radio silence there being a PR nightmare and the silence is killing us fans.
If they aren’t going to sell him then a couple of fresh faces would help.
People can say what they want about the toxic atmosphere but if we can get fresh blood in and turn results around the toxicity will dissipate (this scenario is very unlikely 🤣)
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A lot of people saying he didn't take training today and is in Germany.
He is. He's visiting family in Munich I believe.
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Just to play devils advocate it is easy to make up a narrative and a story that fits with what the majority want but the reality is that we now have a long gap before our next game, his family are in Germany right? Wouldn’t it make sense for him to be having a break regardless? And possibly a couple days off for the players?
In juxtaposition to that it’s deadline day and would be odd for us not to be looking at deals.
We either have to sack him or back him though, you’re completely right about the radio silence there being a PR nightmare and the silence is killing us fans.
If they aren’t going to sell him then a couple of fresh faces would help.
People can say what they want about the toxic atmosphere but if we can get fresh blood in and turn results around the toxicity will dissipate (this scenario is very unlikely 🤣)
Bang on, I'd have thought the players would have had today off as well normally but given then performances recently wouldn't a motivated coach want them in and sorting the problems out?
And like you say he has form for the deadline day vanish as in August he want for a walk after telling reporters he was happy with the squad.
Either way at present the fans are getting shafted.
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He is. He's visiting family in Munich I believe.
Hopefully he stays there. Saying that his managerial particpation and tactics could easily be carried out from hundreds of miles away. He does next to nothing every game.
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It's nigh on impossible to get relegated now this season even with Val in charge so i guess they will just let things peter out if that Twitter account is correct and save money and face more importantly.
If he's left in charge it's going to be vile at the Hawthorns from now on. Glad i didnt get a season ticket this year.
We need about 50 points to guarentee survival in this league - 5 points to go :-X ;D
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We need about 50 points to guarentee survival in this league - 5 points to go :-X ;D
Will be a struggle with VI in charge but i think we will scrape a win and enough draws somewhere to be ok.
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Bang on, I'd have thought the players would have had today off as well normally but given then performances recently wouldn't a motivated coach want them in and sorting the problems out?
And like you say he has form for the deadline day vanish as in August he want for a walk after telling reporters he was happy with the squad.
Either way at present the fans are getting shafted.
The players may benefit from a few missed training sessions, after all, there are no signs that they have a positive effect.
Thinking about it, if we have to keep him, can't we just de-activate his pass for the training ground?
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He needs to go. If he stops we will stay up, but we will sink out of the playoffs. Next year I really do fear we will be in the relegation zone if he stops. The game against the blades will be a good marker. Earlier in the season we gave them a good hiding. Now, the best we can hope for is a draw, and on current form we will lose. He may have unwisely been given a long contract, but if we continue on this path it will be disastrous.
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Or how about they put him on gardening leave till the end of the season
Depends on how the break clause is worded.
It's unlikely to be a straight forward "either party don't fancy it anymore", it's more likely to be conditional on meeting a set of criteria. If he's met most of the criteria, he would be able to argue that the club have to give him the rest of the season to meet the rest. Putting him on gardening leave would prevent that.
A straight forward "either party doesn't fancy it any more" works for the club if they want to pull the plug if he doesn't live up to expectations, but it also works for him if he does.
If he's successful in his first year, he can terminate that contract & demand a better one.
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I don't care about any clause. Whatever money it takes to pay off his stupid contract (fault of the muppets above) is nothing compared to falls in revenue, season ticket sales and potential PL money.
He needs to go now . No argument, no compromise. [size=36pt now!!!!![/size]
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I don't care about any clause. Whatever money it takes to pay off his stupid contract (fault of the muppets above)[/b]
Bit harsh on baggiejohn and Norfolk Baggie ;D
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Bit harsh on baggiejohn and Norfolk Baggie ;D
;D They are big boys, they can take it ;)
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I don't care about any clause. Whatever money it takes to pay off his stupid contract (fault of the muppets above) is nothing compared to falls in revenue, season ticket sales and potential PL money.
He needs to go [inow/i]. No argument, no compromise. [size=36ptnow!!!![/size]
Does anybody know the figure the club would have to pay out atm £1.5M would be worth it.
A drop in attendance of 5,000 would cost roughly £115,000 per game with 9 home games left plus whatever fans spend inside the stadium.
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It’s Chines New Year tomorrow, what better way for the owners to celebrate a fresh beginning 👍🤞😊
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A so called itk posted this on Facebook, really don't know why they bother!
West Bromwich Albion Fanzone
Jamie Pearson · 2h ·
Update: after talks with the board valerian Ishmael will REMAIN albion head coach. Absolutely fkin fuming.
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A so called itk posted this on Facebook, really don't know why they bother!
West Bromwich Albion Fanzone
Jamie Pearson · 2h ·
Update: after talks with the board valerian Ishmael will REMAIN albion head coach. Absolutely fkin fuming.
You have to laugh when they cant even spell his name correctly ::)
I have to admit i thought he would be gone by now. I sat there in the stand watching them 2-0 down on Saturday and like most i just think the players have fully given up under him. They too have to take some blame but his stubbornness with this formation is what has done him in my opinion.
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I don't care about any clause. Whatever money it takes to pay off his stupid contract (fault of the muppets above) is nothing compared to falls in revenue, season ticket sales and potential PL money.
He needs to go now!!!!!. No argument, no compromise. now[/size][/b]
Thank you for that huge now. Could not agree more. If they think that keeping him will help their business they must be clinically insane.
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Anyone can claim to be ITK at the minute, he's either staying or going, it's a coin toss. Business as usual until someone at the club says different is the only sure policy at present.
That's assuming that those in charge are actually ITK of course. ::)
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It's official.
Someone will manage the side against Sheffield United in our next match.
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Does anybody know the figure the club would have to pay out atm £1.5M would be worth it.
A drop in attendance of 5,000 would cost roughly £115,000 per game with 9 home games left plus whatever fans spend inside the stadium.
I would be astonished if VI is still in charge for our next game.
WBAFC accounts at companies house declare an extraordinary amount of money for accounting & legal services, so muppets they're not.
Undoubtedly the club's legal specialists will be scouring the clauses of the contract to determine the lowest possible payout.
I could not see any scenario where compensation would prevent the club making the right long term decision.
As I said earlier today, sacking VI is the easy bit, it's his replacement that might prove more difficult.
According to Lepkowski last night, there is some traction in the rumours surrounding one of our ex managers, those negotiations might be the hold up.
Sorry, need to revise this............................
Lepkowski didn't rule it out, especially at EOS if neither club is promoted.
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A so called itk posted this on Facebook, really don't know why they bother!
West Bromwich Albion Fanzone
Jamie Pearson · 2h ·
Update: after talks with the board valerian Ishmael will REMAIN albion head coach. Absolutely fkin fuming.
Probably Sooty in disguise trying to repair his earlier ITK to prevent him from being tagged as NITK.
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A staggering day in the club's history this, they've allowed things to get a lot worse than needed. The longer they leave it without saying anything the only option is to sack him otherwise the anger in the next games will make Millwall look like a picnic.
Gross incompetence from pretty much everyone involved at the club, I truly don't know where we go from here but it sure as sh*t ain't promotion.
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A staggering day in the club's history this, they've allowed things to get a lot worse than needed. The longer they leave it without saying anything the only option is to sack him otherwise the anger in the next games will make Millwall look like a picnic.
Gross incompetence from pretty much everyone involved at the club, I truly don't know where we go from here but it sure as sh*t ain't promotion.
Why is it gross incompetence?
If you're in PR, what kind of a holding statement would you have put out?
I haven't got a clue what's going on in the background.
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Or how about they put him on gardening leave till the end of the season
The only problem I could foresee with that is any possible bonuses linked to promotion etc. Easy to put him on gardening leave until we get to the break clause, but he could legitimately argue that he was not given the chance to get the team promoted and hit the bonus, or in other words, we are preventing him from doing it. So it might not be that simple.
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Why is it gross incompetence?
If you're in PR, what kind of a holding statement would you have put out?
I haven't got a clue what's going on in the background.
It was simple. After the trouble Saturday the club needed to defuse the situation fast, the trouble alone was enough to merit a statement.
This should have meant an emergency meeting where the future of Val should have been priority one. Then Sunday a statement either backing or sacking, if backing they should have been aware the fan base are going to be very hard to win around. A couple of decent loans today may have helped that shocking decision taste a little better.
If sacking they have two options, temp until end of season and then find their man. Or say they’ll have someone in place in a few weeks.
Doing nothing has led to a massive amount of speculation and caused even more trouble between the fanbase and the club.
So far it looks like we are doing no transfer business and keeping a manager that 90% of fans want gone. It really is lose, lose for the fans.
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It was simple. After the trouble Saturday the club needed to defuse the situation fast, the trouble alone was enough to merit a statement.
This should have meant an emergency meeting where the future of Val should have been priority one. Then Sunday a statement either backing or sacking, if backing they should have been aware the fan base are going to be very hard to win around. A couple of decent loans today may have helped that shocking decision taste a little better.
If sacking they have two options, temp until end of season and then find their man. Or say they’ll have someone in place in a few weeks.
Doing nothing has led to a massive amount of speculation and caused even more trouble between the fanbase and the club.
So far it looks like we are doing no transfer business and keeping a manager that 90% of fans want gone. It really is lose, lose for the fans.
The sentence in bold correct...............
Something like "Any supporters who bought tickets via WBAFC & were found guilty of criminal activity would be banned".
As far as the rest is concerned we don't know where the club is in the process.
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Why is it gross incompetence?
If you're in PR, what kind of a holding statement would you have put out?
I haven't got a clue what's going on in the background.
You are right John, and we as fans lose sight of this, they do not have to say or do anything. They do not have to tell us that they are not going to dismiss him. The speculation, so far without foundation, is what has fueled our fire. And I do include myself in that by the way.
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A staggering day in the club's history this, they've allowed things to get a lot worse than needed. The longer they leave it without saying anything the only option is to sack him otherwise the anger in the next games will make Millwall look like a picnic.
Gross incompetence from pretty much everyone involved at the club, I truly don't know where we go from here but it sure as sh*t ain't promotion.
The only thing I am hoping for is that they are furiously working behind the scenes to line a new coach/manager up, so it is a double good news story, as in 'Val's gone, here's Steve'. The fact that VI is in Germany at the moment means nothing really, if he is getting the boot then I imagine he will have a legal representative fighting his corner and reporting back.
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The only thing I am hoping for is that they are furiously working behind the scenes to line a new coach/manager up, so it is a double good news story, as in 'Val's gone, here's Steve'. The fact that VI is in Germany at the moment means nothing really, if he is getting the boot then I imagine he will have a legal representative fighting his corner and reporting back.
Now that would be depressing >:(
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It was simple. After the trouble Saturday the club needed to defuse the situation fast, the trouble alone was enough to merit a statement.
This should have meant an emergency meeting where the future of Val should have been priority one. Then Sunday a statement either backing or sacking, if backing they should have been aware the fan base are going to be very hard to win around. A couple of decent loans today may have helped that shocking decision taste a little better.
If sacking they have two options, temp until end of season and then find their man. Or say they’ll have someone in place in a few weeks.
Doing nothing has led to a massive amount of speculation and caused even more trouble between the fanbase and the club.
So far it looks like we are doing no transfer business and keeping a manager that 90% of fans want gone. It really is lose, lose for the fans.
I don't agree with this and do not expect the board to run the club at the direction of majority opinion from online football forums and other social media.
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Now that would be depressing >:(
It could be worse, it could be Colin..... :o
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I don't agree with this and do not expect the board to run the club at the direction of majority opinion from online football forums and other social media.
Pretty sure you can throw "in the stands" in addition to online etc there, it's not just an echo chamber online.
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Pretty sure you can throw "in the stands" in addition to online etc there, it's not just an echo chamber online.
Yes, also the stands, although lets be realistic - most noise around football clubs now is online. We have a plurality of views, not just an echo chamber, although it is obvious vast majority of posters on here & elsewhere want him gone and I can understand that point of view. I wouldn't expect the club to respond with statements of confidence though. I suspect they will either pull the trigger and tell us or keep their heads down.
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The Chinese owners will not want to lose face over this. Having vetoed the appointment of a manager who is successful and was wanted by the professionals at the club (and many of us fans) they will be seen to have got it wrong. We all know they have but from a distance WBA are still in with a shout of promotion and I think it unlikely that they will move yet.
Talk of a 'break clause' at the end of the season gives me a glimmer of hope that this awful football will end. Not as soon as I would like, which is now, but it will end.
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Like others have said we can only hope the silence is because they have someone they want and are working on a deal but the longer they leave it the worse it gets.
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Yes, also the stands, although lets be realistic - most noise around football clubs now is online. We have a plurality of views, not just an echo chamber, although it is obvious vast majority of posters on here & elsewhere want him gone and I can understand that point of view. I wouldn't expect the club to respond with statements of confidence though. I suspect they will either pull the trigger and tell us or keep their heads down.
He has pretty much zero support from the fans and zero support from the players.
Just who is supporting him? If I’d have appointed him and given him a 4 year deal I’d be expecting the sack.
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Seems a strange situation. They sacked Moore and Bilic when our formed dipped dramatically. They stuck with Pardew way too long. Maybe another Pardew situation? The longer we spend in the championship the less Lai will be able to sell for anything near what he wants. Or we just spend a bunch of years in the football wilderness...
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If there was ever a time for people to boycott games until the manager is gone then now is it (unless you support him of course). I won't accept that you'd only turn up to show your displeasure. The bigger gesture would be for there to be an almost empty stadium. That would surely be the end.
Just don't turn up, it's easy.
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He has pretty much zero support from the fans and zero support from the players.
Just who is supporting him? If I’d have appointed him and given him a 4 year deal I’d be expecting the sack.
I'm happy to stick with him and review in the summer - thought you might have noticed by now. I really against changing and hoping managers mid-season in all but the most extreme of situations.
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If there was ever a time for people to boycott games until the manager is gone then now is it (unless you support him of course). I won't accept that you'd only turn up to show your displeasure. The bigger gesture would be for there to be an almost empty stadium. That would surely be the end.
Just don't turn up, it's easy.
What happened to supporting the team? Calling for boycott, like we are Oldham and the club is being asset stripped. Not a fan of this attitude, I have to say.
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I'm happy to stick with him and review in the summer - thought you might have noticed by now. I really against changing and hoping managers mid-season in all but the most extreme of situations.
This is extreme.
Surely you’d rather anyone at the club pick up until the end of season?
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This is extreme.
Surely you’d rather anyone at the club pick up until the end of season?
There is a big difference between being disappointed with results & form and deciding yet another change of manager is the best way forward. If I wanted Val out, I would say so. I do not consider sacking the manager and his back room staff progressive, or a magic wand at this stage of the season. For me, that is just more of the same failed strategy that has slowly but surely seen us regress over the past 18 months.
Besides, I still expect the team to make the top six, which is within a realistic range for this squad; and I see no merit in giving managers one summer each and two thirds of a season each when I think our lowest position this season has been 6th. No manager is bullet proof, but as far as we can I'd rather allow the manager to do his job; noting he has been in charge for only a few months. Everyone wants jam today and promotion yesterday. I'm prepared to zoom out a lot more and give him space and time to get on with it.
It is an often rolled out but how many times would you have sacked Alex Ferguson between 1986 and 1990? The Man Utd board were within a whisker of handing him a P45 and their patience didn't work out too badly. Yes, that was unique, but if you look at the clubs in the wilderness they all have the same lack of patience, lack of planning, hire & fire them mentality.
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I'm happy to stick with him and review in the summer - thought you might have noticed by now. I really against changing and hoping managers mid-season in all but the most extreme of situations.
I'm with you on this Baggie82. Take the time to get in a proper well thought out replacement and then to try to get in the players he will want, if still required. Unlikely to go down even if we don't get to the play offs. Any new guy now probably won't get this team up so no real harm done. Maybe lose some 'supporters', for this season but better they stay at home than continue in the same vein as at Milwall. They are already lost anyway. The main problem will be the players, but surely some professionalism will come to the fore, won't it?
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On the liquidator podcast today, they said the average time for managers/ head coaches in the championship is just over 1 year I think (370 odd days).
The days of a head coach being in situ for years is over all throughout the leagues - the reason = most clubs have a sound structure behind which can accomodate changes in the head coach without drawing up a whole new plan from top to bottom. I remember when Albion used to have such a structure - funnily enough it was also our most successful period in the past 30 years - funny that.
The club desperately need to get a structure in place (again) that can absorb the inevitable change in coaches this time and then appoint a coach to fit in with a new 'DNA' .
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VI has shown how to play agricultural football and when the wheels started to come off in October he decided to stick to his guns. We have been poor for nearly four months and there is no sign of improvement. A strong character is an admirable quality, however you still don't follow someone over a cliff just because they are determined.
I don't see the point in sticking with VI until the end of the season, you have to accept that this is how he sees the game and that is not going to change. If we stick with him until the end of the season you may as well stick with him though next season, nothing will change. We still have a chance of making the playoffs with some form to carry us through but sticking with VI is giving up on the season.
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On the liquidator podcast today, they said the average time for managers/ head coaches in the championship is just over 1 year I think (370 odd days).
The days of a head coach being in situ for years is over all throughout the leagues - the reason = most clubs have a sound structure behind which can accomodate changes in the head coach without drawing up a whole new plan from top to bottom. I remember when Albion used to have such a structure - funnily enough it was also our most successful period in the past 30 years - funny that.
The club desperately need to get a structure in place (again) that can absorb the inevitable change in coaches this time and then appoint a coach to fit in with a new 'DNA' .
Disagree, name one Championship club with a decent DoF.
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Disagree, name one Championship club with a decent DoF.
To be fair, he's not said it has to be a DOF, just a structure above and beyond the manager, whether that's a flatter structure that you prefer, or one with a DOF.
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I keep coming on here hoping the title of this thread has changed or been closed.
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Doesn't need to be a DoF John, just a football structure which covers scouting, youth system, first team, youth teams, transfers, contracts up to the top.
You think a consultant advising the board (Ron Gourlay) and then an over reliance on VI for everything from coaching, contract decisions , 'DNA' of the youth teams, decisions on transfer etc etc is a good thing? This was the Pulis model which has failed us since 2016.
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There is a big difference between being disappointed with results & form and deciding yet another change of manager is the best way forward. If I wanted Val out, I would say so. I do not consider sacking the manager and his back room staff progressive, or a magic wand at this stage of the season. For me, that is just more of the same failed strategy that has slowly but surely seen us regress over the past 18 months.
Besides, I still expect the team to make the top six, which is within a realistic range for this squad; and I see no merit in giving managers one summer each and two thirds of a season each when I think our lowest position this season has been 6th. No manager is bullet proof, but as far as we can I'd rather allow the manager to do his job; noting he has been in charge for only a few months. Everyone wants jam today and promotion yesterday. I'm prepared to zoom out a lot more and give him space and time to get on with it.
It is an often rolled out but how many times would you have sacked Alex Ferguson between 1986 and 1990? The Man Utd board were within a whisker of handing him a P45 and their patience didn't work out too badly. Yes, that was unique, but if you look at the clubs in the wilderness they all have the same lack of patience, lack of planning, hire & fire them mentality.
You live in a world of football that ended when the premier league began. You give this idiot more time and you'll just end up like Sunderland or Ipswich, 2 great clubs who through poor appointments and so called long term strategies got themselves trapped in L2.
I suggest you take in the next couple of home games and get a feel for what he has done in a very short span of time to the footballing side of this club.
Things ain't going to get better with a man who is so single minded and unwilling to adapt.
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They've just tweeted wishing Ken Zohore happy birthday :o
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They've just tweeted wishing Ken Zohore happy birthday :o
Imagine how disconnected you have to be from your fanbase to think that is a good idea?
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They are grasping now.
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The comments underneath it are great.
They are completely out of touch.
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They've just tweeted wishing Ken Zohore happy birthday :o
need to as him for lotto number’s because he’s winning every week.
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Anyway, let’s not let our birthday greetings to Ken Zohore get in the way of our unbridled love and support for Val..
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Big Ken tagged into the tweet despite his last tweet being when he was still at cardiff
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There is a big difference between being disappointed with results & form and deciding yet another change of manager is the best way forward. If I wanted Val out, I would say so. I do not consider sacking the manager and his back room staff progressive, or a magic wand at this stage of the season. For me, that is just more of the same failed strategy that has slowly but surely seen us regress over the past 18 months.
Besides, I still expect the team to make the top six, which is within a realistic range for this squad; and I see no merit in giving managers one summer each and two thirds of a season each when I think our lowest position this season has been 6th. No manager is bullet proof, but as far as we can I'd rather allow the manager to do his job; noting he has been in charge for only a few months. Everyone wants jam today and promotion yesterday. I'm prepared to zoom out a lot more and give him space and time to get on with it.
It is an often rolled out but how many times would you have sacked Alex Ferguson between 1986 and 1990? The Man Utd board were within a whisker of handing him a P45 and their patience didn't work out too badly. Yes, that was unique, but if you look at the clubs in the wilderness they all have the same lack of patience, lack of planning, hire & fire them mentality.
Alex Ferguson he ain't! How can you want a coach to continue with the rubbish we are playing having lost the dressing room by his attitude towards the players? Not listening to other suggestions and alienating the fans, not only with the stuff we are playing (can't call it football) but with all the rubbish he spouts in the after match interviews? I am not a fan of keep changing managers but this situation really as gone to far. Time to say goodbye.
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There is a big difference between being disappointed with results & form and deciding yet another change of manager is the best way forward. If I wanted Val out, I would say so. I do not consider sacking the manager and his back room staff progressive, or a magic wand at this stage of the season. For me, that is just more of the same failed strategy that has slowly but surely seen us regress over the past 18 months.
Besides, I still expect the team to make the top six, which is within a realistic range for this squad; and I see no merit in giving managers one summer each and two thirds of a season each when I think our lowest position this season has been 6th. No manager is bullet proof, but as far as we can I'd rather allow the manager to do his job; noting he has been in charge for only a few months. Everyone wants jam today and promotion yesterday. I'm prepared to zoom out a lot more and give him space and time to get on with it.
It is an often rolled out but how many times would you have sacked Alex Ferguson between 1986 and 1990? The Man Utd board were within a whisker of handing him a P45 and their patience didn't work out too badly. Yes, that was unique, but if you look at the clubs in the wilderness they all have the same lack of patience, lack of planning, hire & fire them mentality.
On that basis if we hadn’t have sacked Bryan Robson in 2007 we would be Champions League regulars now with a few domestic trophies under our belts.
:P
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Doesn't need to be a DoF John, just a football structure which covers scouting, youth system, first team, youth teams, transfers, contracts up to the top.
You think a consultant advising the board (Ron Gourlay) and then an over reliance on VI for everything from coaching, contract decisions , 'DNA' of the youth teams, decisions on transfer etc etc is a good thing? This was the Pulis model which has failed us since 2016.
The person in a football club that is going nowhere is the owner &/or his/her CEO.
It's up to them to determine the DNA of the club.
IMO the position that interprets & delivers that DNA should be the head coach. There's only a large turnover of head coaches because the selection processes are not very good.
Agree that the head coach needs a support structure, but I think head coach should report to a CEO rather than a DoF.
I replied to a comment earlier this week when a member said that we hadn't had a decent DoF in 20 years since Dan Ashworth, if that's the case why bother, a good one is as rare as rocking horse S""".
IMO, we need a position to take responsibility for external recruitment & another to do the same for player development, we've already got those positions filled.
To future proof the system, & for continuity, the CEO (along with an advisor if required) should keep a database of suitable head coaches.
I believe Ken has already recognised that he can't have a hands off approach.
I understand Jeremy Peace's argument about continuity, but I think he got it the wrong way round, probably influenced by Dan Ashworth's success
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On the liquidator podcast today, they said the average time for managers/ head coaches in the championship is just over 1 year I think (370 odd days).
The days of a head coach being in situ for years is over all throughout the leagues - the reason = most clubs have a sound structure behind which can accomodate changes in the head coach without drawing up a whole new plan from top to bottom. I remember when Albion used to have such a structure - funnily enough it was also our most successful period in the past 30 years - funny that.
The club desperately need to get a structure in place (again) that can absorb the inevitable change in coaches this time and then appoint a coach to fit in with a new 'DNA' .
The average championship club is highly unsuccessful, so following the same approach adopted by other championship clubs who are going nowhere quick, is not a logical strategy. Not a coincidence that Tony Mowbray got the Blackburn job back in 2017 and has slowly but surely built them up. Ditto Mark Warburton at QPR, appointed in May 2019. Given time to build the team and tactics.
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After reading this thread, it seems like he is here and will stay here until the board "grow a pair".
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Alex Ferguson he ain't! How can you want a coach to continue with the rubbish we are playing having lost the dressing room by his attitude towards the players? Not listening to other suggestions and alienating the fans, not only with the stuff we are playing (can't call it football) but with all the rubbish he spouts in the after match interviews? I am not a fan of keep changing managers but this situation really as gone to far. Time to say goodbye.
Sacking the manager mid-season after appointing him seven months ago is the height of madness IMV, as managers need time and space to do their job. It's a bit like going on a diet for few months and then sacking the personal trainer when you've not turned into a triathlete.
More frequently in recent years you see fans claiming to have the inside lowdown on struggling managers having "lost the dressing room" (whatever that actually means) which I take as a generic statement thrown about by fans upset at results & form. Upsetting players from time to time is a requisite part of the job.
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How reliable is this sooty chap on twitter?
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How reliable is this sooty chap on twitter?
Not as in the know as Sweep.
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How reliable is this sooty chap on twitter?
Not at all reliable
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How reliable is this sooty chap on twitter?
About as reliable as my tea leaves.
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After reading this thread, it seems like he is here and will stay here until the board "grow a pair".
What makes you think that, the club's said nowt, apart from tickets for Luton & Big Ken's birthday.
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Sacking the manager mid-season after appointing him seven months ago is the height of madness IMV, as managers need time and space to do their job. It's a bit like going on a diet for few months and then sacking the personal trainer when you've not turned into a triathlete.
More frequently in recent years you see fans claiming to have the inside lowdown on struggling managers having "lost the dressing room" (whatever that actually means) which I take as a generic statement thrown about by fans upset at results & form. Upsetting players from time to time is a requisite part of the job.
Lost the dressing room players ain't listening and ain't doing their jobs. " I have never seen a West Bromwich Albion team this bad in all my years at the Albion. No heart, no effort, no desire can't even be bothered to try and are not even hiding it. The manager as clearly lost the dressing room" Said by one Tony Bomber Brown last Wednesday night after that debacle against Preston.
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Problem is: surely they would have done it by now? Fear he’s still going to be here for Sheff U… They’ll destroy us, too. So just prolonging this pain.
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See despite a few frustrating things I could buy into keeping him on and trying to ride this out if the football wasn't hoofball combined with set piece wrestling most of the time
That isn't going to change , he shows no sign of changing anything at all and this was his way at Barnsley .
I'm against sackings this early but he was a bad fit from day one , I said at the time he'd have to evolve but he hasn't .
Feel its gone too far to save him here .
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the longer it goes on, the longer it makes you wonder if they are just going to try and limp along/ride the vitriol to the summer to get to this alleged "break clause" in his contract.
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the longer it goes on, the longer it makes you wonder if they are just going to try and limp along/ride the vitriol to the summer to get to this alleged "break clause" in his contract.
Depressingly this has Albion written all over it
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The whole saga has developed into a farce. It is generally accepted that he is out of his depth but we just can’t afford to get rid of him and his staff. The increasingly empty stadium will get the message through to our useless owners and directors that this has is false economy. By this time we’ll probably be in the bottom half of the table. Fans are being badly let down.
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https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/west-brom-fans-ismael-sack-22937765
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The whole saga has developed into a farce. It is generally accepted that he is out of his depth but we just can’t afford to get rid of him and his staff. The increasingly empty stadium will get the message through to our useless owners and directors that this has is false economy. By this time we’ll probably be in the bottom half of the table. Fans are being badly let down.
It appears that board disagrees with your wish to sack the manager in February, having appointed him last summer.
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The average championship club is highly unsuccessful, so following the same approach adopted by other championship clubs who are going nowhere quick, is not a logical strategy. Not a coincidence that Tony Mowbray got the Blackburn job back in 2017 and has slowly but surely built them up. Ditto Mark Warburton at QPR, appointed in May 2019. Given time to build the team and tactics.
Only last season Blackburn fans were calling for Tony Mowbray to be sacked. They were getting frustrated like the West Brom fans after finishing 15th in 2018/19, 11th in 2019/20 and 15th in 2020/21. But the club stuck by him and now they are reaping the rewards.
Lets just hope our owners show a bit of common sense and keep with Ismael and support him through this transistion. I don't care what anybody says this is a transistion period for us where we have to get rid of the old heads and bring in new young blood. That's the only way forward for us is to built a good team around the youngsters. Its no quick fix. So fans will just have to be patient.
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Which is why fans shouldn't turn up to any game where Ismael is coach now. There's no point in going to 'support the team' or 'support the players'. Even they've lost interest now. Don't let going for the weekly jolly in your special seat with your weekend mates get in the way of what's best for the club. Short term pain for long term gain.
Delayed gratification. Stop bowing down to a regime that doesn't care about you and who doesn't have a clue about football.
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The person in a football club that is going nowhere is the owner &/or his/her CEO.
It's up to them to determine the DNA of the club.
IMO the position that interprets & delivers that DNA should be the head coach. There's only a large turnover of head coaches because the selection processes are not very good.
Agree that the head coach needs a support structure, but I think head coach should report to a CEO rather than a DoF.
I replied to a comment earlier this week when a member said that we hadn't had a decent DoF in 20 years since Dan Ashworth, if that's the case why bother, a good one is as rare as rocking horse S""".
IMO, we need a position to take responsibility for external recruitment & another to do the same for player development, we've already got those positions filled.
To future proof the system, & for continuity, the CEO (along with an advisor if required) should keep a database of suitable head coaches.
I believe Ken has already recognised that he can't have a hands off approach.
I understand Jeremy Peace's argument about continuity, but I think he got it the wrong way round, probably influenced by Dan Ashworth's success
Leadership is the key but I think we need football leadership , I don’t trust a businessman a la Peace, Jenkins, Williams , Goodman, Ken, Lai to design and implement a football DNA. Look at Brentford or Brighton or Albion under Peace, they have a pro active board but entrust the football running to a knowledgable specialist who understands football.
First get the structure , then the right people then stick to the plan. Watford seem a shambles but behind the coach they generally have a stable structure.
The alternative is Pulis to Pardew to Moore to Bilic to Allardyce to Ismael. Chaotic , short term decisions lurching from one approach to another, leaving an unbalanced squad with little value.
The chances of striking gold with a megson type who will reinvigorate a poorly run club is rarer than rocking horse pooh and I think this is what the board hoped VI would be.
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Only last season Blackburn fans were calling for Tony Mowbray to be sacked. They were getting frustrated like the West Brom fans after finishing 15th in 2018/19, 11th in 2019/20 and 15th in 2020/21. But the club stuck by him and now they are reaping the rewards.
Lets just hope our owners show a bit of common sense and keep with Ismael and support him through this transistion. I don't care what anybody says this is a transistion period for us where we have to get rid of the old heads and bring in new young blood. That's the only way forward for us is to built a good team around the youngsters. Its no quick fix. So fans will just have to be patient.
Good post. That's at least three of us on here now who aren't demanding the manager gets an immediate P45 - on a roll.
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Leadership is the key but I think we need football leadership , I don’t trust a businessman a la Peace, Jenkins, Williams , Goodman, Ken, Lai to design and implement a football DNA. Look at Brentford or Brighton or Albion under Peace, they have a pro active board but entrust the football running to a knowledgable specialist who understands football.
First get the structure , then the right people then stick to the plan. Watford seem a shambles but behind the coach they generally have a stable structure.
The alternative is Pulis to Pardew to Moore to Bilic to Allardyce to Ismael. Chaotic , short term decisions lurching from one approach to another, leaving an unbalanced squad with little value.
The chances of striking gold with a megson type who will reinvigorate a poorly run club is rarer than rocking horse **** and I think this is what the board hoped VI would be.
I agree with this post apart from the last sentence. I think they saw Ismael as a long term project thats why they gave him a 4 year contract. I still think that the owner wasn't expecting anything great this season but was expected to be a solid premier club in 4 years time. By which time all the old heads will be gone and our playing team will be totally different. Just look back 4 years from now and see what players are still playing for us. That's part of the problem.
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Only last season Blackburn fans were calling for Tony Mowbray to be sacked. They were getting frustrated like the West Brom fans after finishing 15th in 2018/19, 11th in 2019/20 and 15th in 2020/21. But the club stuck by him and now they are reaping the rewards.
Before Mowbray there was Coyle who was there for 37 games, and before that Lambert for 33 games. By this argument they should have stuck with Lambert for how long? And then Coyle. It's not about just throwing your support behind any manager, it's about throwing it behind the right manager.
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Good post. That's at least three of us on here now who aren't demanding the manager gets an immediate P45 - on a roll.
I see the sense of this argument, I really do.
We are definitely a team in transition. VI has only had two windows and a very, very limited budget to work with. He's bought in two key players for his team in Mowatt and Dike. The thing is, key to this transition is getting rid of the old heads. Who has been given contract extensions this season? Barts, Furlong, Livermore and Townsend, if I recall? Townsend I have no issues with, the others though...if we really are on a rebuild why have we allowed that to happen? No need to extend them, and now we're stuck with them on increased wages for another couple of years.
In all honesty, I'm not sure what the fix is here. I was furious after Millwall. After the debacle that was PNE and the presser that followed, I expected wholesale changes, a change of tactic, formation, personnel, anything to try and find a winning formula. Instead we got the same style, in the same formation, with the same instructions and largely the same players.
In football, its adapt or die. Val, and by extension, we, are not adapting. So where does that leave us?
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I have no issue with a long term project but we shouldn't be sprinting backwards blindfold in terms of results, performance, effort, strategy, confidence and actual FOOTBALL.
Possible points from 45 (last 15 games)? 11. I'd be patient if I saw one ounce of reason why I should be.
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Only last season Blackburn fans were calling for Tony Mowbray to be sacked. They were getting frustrated like the West Brom fans after finishing 15th in 2018/19, 11th in 2019/20 and 15th in 2020/21. But the club stuck by him and now they are reaping the rewards.
Lets just hope our owners show a bit of common sense and keep with Ismael and support him through this transistion. I don't care what anybody says this is a transistion period for us where we have to get rid of the old heads and bring in new young blood. That's the only way forward for us is to built a good team around the youngsters. Its no quick fix. So fans will just have to be patient.
He dosen't even play the youth when he has the chance, I have only just turned on Val but his refusal to drop players past it and play a style that any manager in this league can counter with ease has proven he is not worth the pain to continue with his service.
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Before Mowbray there was Coyle who was there for 37 games, and before that Lambert for 33 games. By this argument they should have stuck with Lambert for how long? And then Coyle. It's not about just throwing your support behind any manager, it's about throwing it behind the right manager.
They got behind Mowbray because he has done it before in the championship with us. Ismael got Barnsley into the play offs last season. Nothing short of a miracle really when you look at Barnsleys set up. So with a potentially bigger and better set up like ours why shouldn't he not achieve the same. His track record is better than Appletons or McCinnes who at the time were our only other options. Personally I would have gone for Wilder. That was a no brainer with his record but the owner didn't want to go that way !! Wilder will definitely get Boro promoted if not this season, next season.
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Good post. That's at least three of us on here now who aren't demanding the manager gets an immediate P45 - on a roll.
Should have given Pardew more time then?😂😂
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He dosen't even play the youth when he has the chance, I have only just turned on Val but his refusal to drop players past it and play a style that any manager in this league can counter with ease has proven he is not worth the pain to continue with his service.
Perhaps that's where the problem is. Maybe the owners need to reassure him to try different players or different formations without the fear of getting sacked for losing.
I'm sure if he went down this route a few more fans would come on board. You are always going to get the fans who demand instant success which seem common amongst West Brom fans. But using the Mowbray example at Blackburn and to a lesser degree Warburton at QPR.
Its probably different with the QPR fans because a lot of them have a low expectation .I have talked to a few QPR fans over the last 12 months and one said he doesn't want to get promoted and another one who I spoke to yesterday is just hoping QPR don't get relegated this season !!!
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Giving him a 4 year contract was an astounding level of stupidity.
Should have been 2 years tops with a review at the end of season. As is, it’s taken him 7 months to alienate the fanbase, ruin the playing staff and make us so unwatchable season ticket holders don’t turn up.
Just imagine what he can do in year 2.
If you still think he’s the man for us you clearly don’t watch games in the ground on a regular basis. I’ve not met a single season ticket holder who wants him to continue now. We’ll be sub 10k in a month if he stays.
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They got behind Mowbray because he has done it before in the championship with us. Ismael got Barnsley into the play offs last season. Nothing short of a miracle really when you look at Barnsleys set up. So with a potentially bigger and better set up like ours why shouldn't he not achieve the same. His track record is better than Appletons or McCinnes who at the time were our only other options. Personally I would have gone for Wilder. That was a no brainer with his record but the owner didn't want to go that way !! Wilder will definitely get Boro promoted if not this season, next season.
Saying we should get rid of Val doesn't mean he wasn't worth a try, or that Appleton or McCinnes are better, etc. It's simply that to get the manager who will be good long term for you sometimes have to get rid of ones who aren't.
I think Val's teams work better as an underdog, where the opposition come out and try and play their own game. Works fine for Barnsley, doesn't work fine when you're a newly relegated team and seen as one of the big scalps so teams will adapt to playing you.
My biggest issue with Val is that he's a one trick pony - he doesn't know how to handle teams when they set up to spoil his game plan. The complete lack of trying different things when we've been sliding down the table and his ingame tactics are non-existent. Same subs, same time, every week regardless.
Even if his tactics are perfect when he gets all the right players, he doesn't have the right players *now* so he should be adapting the tactics to fit the players.
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Perhaps that's where the problem is. Maybe the owners need to reassure him to try different players or different formations without the fear of getting sacked for losing.
I'm sure if he went down this route a few more fans would come on board. You are always going to get the fans who demand instant success which seem common amongst West Brom fans. But using the Mowbray example at Blackburn and to a lesser degree Warburton at QPR.
Its probably different with the QPR fans because a lot of them have a low expectation .I have talked to a few QPR fans over the last 12 months and one said he doesn't want to get promoted and another one who I spoke to yesterday is just hoping QPR don't get relegated this season !!!
He's not getting sacked for losing now! It shouldn't take the board to run the team for him. If all he can come up with tactically is what we're seeing then we're in trouble. He's not going to develop an understanding of tactics in the next 12 months. All he'll do is alienate the (little) skilled players we do have and we'll end up with a team designed to play long ball. It's like watching a disorganised Pulis side that is rubbish at set pieces.
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Leadership is the key but I think we need football leadership , I don’t trust a businessman a la Peace, Jenkins, Williams , Goodman, Ken, Lai to design and implement a football DNA. Look at Brentford or Brighton or Albion under Peace, they have a pro active board but entrust the football running to a knowledgable specialist who understands football.
First get the structure , then the right people then stick to the plan. Watford seem a shambles but behind the coach they generally have a stable structure.
The alternative is Pulis to Pardew to Moore to Bilic to Allardyce to Ismael. Chaotic , short term decisions lurching from one approach to another, leaving an unbalanced squad with little value.
The chances of striking gold with a megson type who will reinvigorate a poorly run club is rarer than rocking horse **** and I think this is what the board hoped VI would be.
I think we're pretty much on the same page, it's just I see the delivery for the DNA resting with the head coach.
If you take Brighton for example, they have as much chance of Dan Ashworth moving on as Graham Potter, so there's no real security from having Potter report to Ashworth.
Rasmus Ankersen, responsible for Brentford player recruitment has either moved on or is about to.
Can't really comment about Watford.
I would hope that the board planned for Vi to reinvigorate a poorly run club, that would suggest that the strategy is right, but the selection procedure needs to improve.
VI's 4 year contract would suggest there's a 4 year plan, just need to re-set, hopefully soon.
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I don't know if our fans are "worse" than they used to be but the feeling atm reminds me of the end days of Bobby Gould there is no miracle around the corner.
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He's not getting sacked for losing now! It shouldn't take the board to run the team for him. If all he can come up with tactically is what we're seeing then we're in trouble. He's not going to develop an understanding of tactics in the next 12 months. All he'll do is alienate the (little) skilled players we do have and we'll end up with a team designed to play long ball. It's like watching a disorganised Pulis side that is rubbish at set pieces.
At the end of the day, these players are not that good. We got promoted last time purely because of Pereira. Without him we wouldn't have even got in the play offs. He carried the team. We have no players left in the team with any type of skill to that standard. Yet a lot of the team playing then are still playing. So if they are the same players without the chief playmaker, how on earth do you think we will do as good as then.
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At the end of the day, these players are not that good. We got promoted last time purely because of Pereira. Without him we wouldn't have even got in the play offs. He carried the team. We have no players left in the team with any type of skill to that standard. Yet a lot of the team playing then are still playing. So if they are the same players without the chief playmaker, how on earth do you think we will do as good as then.
I have more faith in the players that you by the looks of it. I think they're better than losing 2-0 to Millwall. Grant has scored plenty at this level, Robbo is a decent player, we know Grady has high quality in him but the manager insists on playing in a way that completely nullifies what little skill we do have in the team.
I don't think we'd neccessarily do better than the last time we were in the champ, although this champ is weaker than any I can remember - but at the moment we're sliding right down the table.
At what point would you get rid then? If we finish 10th? 15th? Carry on regardless in the hope that his tactics suddenly start working?
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Saying we should get rid of Val doesn't mean he wasn't worth a try, or that Appleton or McCinnes are better, etc. It's simply that to get the manager who will be good long term for you sometimes have to get rid of ones who aren't.
I think Val's teams work better as an underdog, where the opposition come out and try and play their own game. Works fine for Barnsley, doesn't work fine when you're a newly relegated team and seen as one of the big scalps so teams will adapt to playing you.
My biggest issue with Val is that he's a one trick pony - he doesn't know how to handle teams when they set up to spoil his game plan. The complete lack of trying different things when we've been sliding down the table and his ingame tactics are non-existent. Same subs, same time, every week regardless.
Even if his tactics are perfect when he gets all the right players, he doesn't have the right players *now* so he should be adapting the tactics to fit the players.
I can't see that he's demonstrated anything that gives cause for optimism.
- The results have been poor for several months. And are getting worse.
- The quality of performances have been poor. And are getting worse.
- The squad has limitations. But players have regressed rather than progressed, both individually and collectively.
- Discipline has been poor (including his own). And has got worse as the season has progressed.
- Relationships with some players seem to have been poor. And those appear to be getting worse.
- The tactics and in-game management have been limited. And not improving.
- Most fans have tried to be patient and supportive. But the relationship with them is getting much worse.
I just cannot see a positive trend anywhere, or any evidence at all that points to an improvement. I really wish I could. I was hopeful when he was appointed, but I can't find anything to hold onto that makes a case for him.
This story will inevitably only end one way - with the manager being sacked. But what state we'll be in at that point, and how long it goes on for, are the only matters of significant doubt.
The club will continue to exist in a kind of purgatory while this goes on, which will be increasingly punishing and agonising until there's a parting of the ways.
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I think we're pretty much on the same page, it's just I see the delivery for the DNA resting with the head coach.
If you take Brighton for example, they have as much chance of Dan Ashworth moving on as Graham Potter, so there's no real security from having Potter report to Ashworth.
Rasmus Ankersen, responsible for Brentford player recruitment has either moved on or is about to.
Can't really comment about Watford.
I would hope that the board planned for Vi to reinvigorate a poorly run club, that would suggest that the strategy is right, but the selection procedure needs to improve.
VI's 4 year contract would suggest there's a 4 year plan, just need to re-set, hopefully soon.
The analogy i’d use is would you trust a CEO to do the company accounts or advise on legal contracts instead of a lawyer? This is why the ashworth’s are sought after , they’re the people behind successful teams over a longer period than the usual managers lifespan because they’re football experts with business knowledge not the other way around. This is the area we should focus now as that’s how a ‘football project’ builds from scratch like we are now.
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I remember reading a quote from Val when he took over and he said when he got sacked from a previous job, he was happy because he had started playing the 3-4-3 Val ball and he knew that was how he wanted his future teams to play.
I said at the time i didnt think he was changing that for anyone, and i think that appears to he his biggest issue, you learn from mistakes, we all make them but he doesnt seem to of.
I thought it was unusual what he said after the PNE game, the players were off thursday and would of done a light training session friday before travelling to London so not sure how he was going to change the intensity, etc in one brief training session.
I am sure on WM saturday it said fridays sessio. we had practised 4-4-2 but instead stuck with the 3-4-3, again not sure how much could be done in a light session.
One of the albion journalists has said Val and the players are due back from their breaks soon and if anything happens they think will be in the next 24-48 hours.
If he does stay then there has to be compromises and acknowledgement from val and the players, his CV shows he has potential to be a good coacy, he needs to learn from mistakes and not be so stubborn, if Snodgrass and Johnstone are still here he needs to offer an olive branch and wipe the slate, two popular senior pro’s will be needed to be onside, he needs to listen to the players, not bow down to them but compromise and the same applies to the players too.
If he stays we have to do a reset and start again, clean slate, new approach, tactics, etc, we are in a decent position by being 5th in the league.
Winning the fans back wont be easy but i think if people can see some changes and actually enjoy games, they may come round, some fans do need a reality check as well but football brings out unusual emotions!
I dont know if the above will or can happen, i have massive doubts but if Val isnt sacked its the only way forward.
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Problem is VI has no real budget to make any wholesale changes. If he is still at the club for our next home game I dread to think what the reception will be. And yes, it must be very hard for the players to perform with a toxic atmosphere all around them. I just can't see a way VI can change things around due to his stubborness. As soon as we go behind all hell will break loose. Its just Groundhog Day, and keeping him here any longer is damaging the club. I wonder if he's still here because we won't stump up the money to pay him off, in the blind hope a miracle will happen. Once you lose the fans the writing is normally on the wall
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The analogy i’d use is would you trust a CEO to do the company accounts or advise on legal contracts instead of a lawyer? This is why the ashworth’s are sought after , they’re the people behind successful teams over a longer period than the usual managers lifespan because they’re football experts with business knowledge not the other way around. This is the area we should focus now as that’s how a ‘football project’ builds from scratch like we are now.
It's not really the case of would I trust a CEO, the CEO is paid to make the big decisions, it who he/she can trust to help make the decisions.
So if I'm CEO of a business that is a football club, I'd want the person responsible for delivering the product to report to me.
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Giving him a 4 year contract was an astounding level of stupidity.
Should have been 2 years tops with a review at the end of season. As is, it’s taken him 7 months to alienate the fanbase, ruin the playing staff and make us so unwatchable season ticket holders don’t turn up.
Just imagine what he can do in year 2.
If you still think he’s the man for us you clearly don’t watch games in the ground on a regular basis. I’ve not met a single season ticket holder who wants him to continue now. We’ll be sub 10k in a month if he stays.
Whilst I agree that it was stupid to go for 4 years, no managers these days will go anywhere on a 2-year contract. It simply doesn’t happen. But in some ways it doesn’t matter if you have a sensible break clause in a longer contract, and that’s usually the trade-off.
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Whilst I agree that it was stupid to go for 4 years, no managers these days will go anywhere on a 2-year contract. It simply doesn’t happen. But in some ways it doesn’t matter if you have a sensible break clause in a longer contract, and that’s usually the trade-off.
Lampard. Signs 2.5 year deal at Everton. Standard for a new manager at a club. Longer deals when they’ve proved themselves. People say it showed commitment to a plan with Val. All it showed was how little they know about football.
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Lampard. Signs 2.5 year deal at Everton. Standard for a new manager at a club. Longer deals when they’ve proved themselves. People say it showed commitment to a plan with Val. All it showed was how little they know about football.
Can’t beat JRP’s 12 month rolling contract
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Problem is VI has no real budget to make any wholesale changes. If he is still at the club for our next home game I dread to think what the reception will be. And yes, it must be very hard for the players to perform with a toxic atmosphere all around them. I just can't see a way VI can change things around due to his stubborness. As soon as we go behind all hell will break loose. Its just Groundhog Day, and keeping him here any longer is damaging the club. I wonder if he's still here because we won't stump up the money to pay him off, in the blind hope a miracle will happen. Once you lose the fans the writing is normally on the wall
They'll end up losing a lot more if fans stop attending and fail to renew.
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Whatever is happening behind the scenes the local journalists have no knowledge
Masi said on his video he has no clue and Madeley has only tweeted about politics today
I await Percys tweet...
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If there was ever a time for people to boycott games until the manager is gone then now is it (unless you support him of course). I won't accept that you'd only turn up to show your displeasure. The bigger gesture would be for there to be an almost empty stadium. That would surely be the end.
Just don't turn up, it's easy.
It’s not easy at all though. To some of us, love for the club is unconditional. I can only speak for myself and I would not consider boycotting a league home match. If they are at home, I go. It’s in my DNA as I know is the case for many others.
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It’s not easy at all though. To some us, love for the club is unconditional. I can only speak for myself and I would not consider boycotting a league home match. If they are at home, I go. It’s in my DNA as I know is the case for many others.
Excellent post KN22.
As I always say IT'S MORE THAN A CLUB IT'S OUR CULTURE.
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Please someone explain where i'm wrong or missing stuff on this list.
VI is hired on a method of play that is focused on high press and being very attack minded, from a solid (so 3/2/2/3) direct football from defence to attack, lots of energy.
We do this for the first 3/4/5 games, it works great to start, then people realise our defence is too slow, inviting easy over the top balls and we stop playing the high energy press.
we go 10/15 games playing with a very defensive mindset, hoping our midfield will create something; a plan which goes more and more awry as the games pass.
We buy the striker VI wants, who is experienced in playing VI's way, but he pulls his thigh an hour into debut...
Is this fair? Honestly, as it's how i see it, but i'm happy to admit i may be being blind.
VI is infuriating as his play is ugly (which is sort of OK, as long as it works) and is unwilling to change it, even swapping like for like players when losing. BUT, his style of play, the one he wants and aims to do is totally unsuitable for this defence and thus the team as a whole and he's stuck.
He abandoned his game as it didn't suit the squad and then found himself in no man's land, not knowing how to play otherwise.
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I’m coming round to the idea that he’s going nowhere…
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Now that Snodgrass has been released is that an indication VI is staying? Otherwise would we not have retained him for a new manager to assess.
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Now that Snodgrass has been released is that an indication VI is staying? Otherwise would we not have retained him for a new manager to assess.
This was my immediate take as well
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Looks like he's staying.
Heaven help us all.
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This is a complete and utter shambles. Lai deserves everything that’s coming, shame us fans don’t.
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Now that Snodgrass has been released is that an indication VI is staying? Otherwise would we not have retained him for a new manager to assess.
Wouldnt read too much into it
Austin, Grosiki, Kanu etc all left after Sam left and before Val came in
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Wouldnt read too much into it
Austin, Grosiki, Kanu etc all left after Sam left and before Val came in
Wasn't Dowling making the decisions then though?
VI's the main footballing man now, he must have approved it.
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The anger of Albion fans is rising on social media it seems. They believe that the release of Snodgrass signifies the reign of the useless one continuing.
Going to be spicy going forward.
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I think Snodgrass' non future at Albion was probably decided weeks ago, I wouldn't read anything into it at all regarding Val's future either way.
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I think Snodgrass' non future at Albion was probably decided weeks ago, I wouldn't read anything into it at all regarding Val's future either way.
Totally agree
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I think Snodgrass' non future at Albion was probably decided weeks ago, I wouldn't read anything into it at all regarding Val's future either way.
True but it's put some fire into the fans bellies. Things could get really ugly from here.
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True but it's put some fire into the fans bellies. Things could get really ugly from here.
I think they definitely will mate. I dread the next home game if Val stays, it's going to be horrible.
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I think they definitely will mate. I dread the next home game if Val stays, it's going to be horrible.
Yep, Snodgrass chants/songs incoming.
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Makes me quite sad going back to page 1 of this thread
“My first task is to implement a new identity that the fans can enjoy and one where they can see the players are there for each other and give everything to win games. We have a clear plan and vision of where we want to go." #wba
CEO Ken: "I am confident by working together we will be able to achieve our goal of returning to PL but our plans must look further into the future. For too long we have focused only on what is immediately in front of us. This means we have often neglected long-term aspirations."
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It's difficult to be optimistic about the future, we've shifted Hugill and Snodgrass of the wage bill and bought in Caroll and Dike, A centre forward alone wouldn't fix our problems and midfield is our weakest point having virtually no creativity or goals coming from that area. In fact we've just weakened our options.
What a mess we've become, we appear to have no money so whether we go up of not how do we become better or good enough to compete? Caroll leaves at the end of season, Clarke and Molumby return to parent clubs, and were stuck with Livermore and Phillips because of contract extensions. Sam Johnson can walk on a free, Furlong who should be nowhere near our club.
That's one hell of a rebuild needed.
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They don’t remove him then the club deserve everything that is about to come there way.
The media are going to have a field day.
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Makes me quite sad going back to page 1 of this thread
“My first task is to implement a new identity that the fans can enjoy and one where they can see the players are there for each other and give everything to win games. We have a clear plan and vision of where we want to go." #wba
CEO Ken: "I am confident by working together we will be able to achieve our goal of returning to PL but our plans must look further into the future. For too long we have focused only on what is immediately in front of us. This means we have often neglected long-term aspirations."
It wouldn't surprise me if they keep him if they truly feel there's a long term plan. To state what they have above and to bin him at the first sign of trouble won't look good either.
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Just had a quick skim read of the thread to have a catch up. My days, I can only imagine what some of you lot must have been like when you didn't get the Christmas presents you were hoping for as kids. I'm not on Facebook but I imagine it's even worse. What a time to be alive ;D .
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Wasn't Dowling making the decisions then though?
VI's the main footballing man now, he must have approved it.
Or Snodgrass wanted to leave because he could see that we are a clown of an outfit and he would rather be a free agent and go elsewhere.
Ken sees a chance to save money so it suits everyone.
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Now that Snodgrass has been released is that an indication VI is staying? Otherwise would we not have retained him for a new manager to assess.
Assess Snodgrass? You don't need to have won the Champions League to see that he was past it. He won't be missed
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Surely we need to hear either way soon. Either a statement saying we’re sticking with him or saying t’rar! ???
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At the ends of every season we all hear ' this will be the biggest re-build for years'
We end up with a few journeymen, old pro's on the way out, and a couple of youngsters not quite established at their parent club.
The season closes and the journeymen trot off to Div 1, the young players go back to their parent clubs and we are left with a mish mash of players that no-one else would have anyway. Back to square one.
Ae are in a mess, it will take a lot more than the 16 or 17 games we have left this season to sort out.
Bournemouth bought in 5 players this window, thats their statement of intent.
No disrespect to the lad, but we bought in Andy Carroll. That's a statement of ours.
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Assess Snodgrass? You don't need to have won the Champions League to see that he was past it. He won't be missed
100 per cent correct. It doesnt mean VI is staying. The guy is finished so to release him reduces the wage bill. Simple and good economics in my book.
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It wouldn't surprise me if they keep him if they truly feel there's a long term plan. To state what they have above and to bin him at the first sign of trouble won't look good either.
True but they wont want any ugly scenes at the next home game surely especially with it being on sky but you just never know with these guys...
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Surely we need to hear either way soon. Either a statement saying we’re sticking with him or saying t’rar! ???
No point in bringing in another manger. The players just aren't good enough.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
If we intend to move forward we need a manager with more than a long ball game in his arsenal and we need to give him a war chest.
You can blame this season on the clever person upstairs who vetoed the appointment of Wilder. Our loss and Boro's gain
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At the ends of every season we all hear ' this will be the biggest re-build for years'
We end up with a few journeymen, old pro's on the way out, and a couple of youngsters not quite established at their parent club.
The season closes and the journeymen trot off to Div 1, the young players go back to their parent clubs and we are left with a mish mash of players that no-one else would have anyway. Back to square one.
Ae are in a mess, it will take a lot more than the 16 or 17 games we have left this season to sort out.
Bournemouth bought in 5 players this window, thats their statement of intent.
No disrespect to the lad, but we bought in Andy Carroll. That's a statement of ours.
I do wonder wether any of our players would've accepted wilder
They hardly ran through brick walls for allardyce
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Could soon be back to the days of Barry Cowdrill, Gary Robson, Craig Madden & the Mighty George Reilly, playing in front of 9,000 supporters. VI is certainly achieving something I didn't think possible - Destroying a squad and dividing a fan base in under a season. He probably has a Wolves scarf hanging over his bed.
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At the ends of every season we all hear ' this will be the biggest re-build for years'
We end up with a few journeymen, old pro's on the way out, and a couple of youngsters not quite established at their parent club.
The season closes and the journeymen trot off to Div 1, the young players go back to their parent clubs and we are left with a mish mash of players that no-one else would have anyway. Back to square one.
Ae are in a mess, it will take a lot more than the 16 or 17 games we have left this season to sort out.
Bournemouth bought in 5 players this window, thats their statement of intent.
No disrespect to the lad, but we bought in Andy Carroll. That's a statement of ours.
You sort of forgot to mention a 7m upfront signing of a 21 year old international?
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Val has been a disaster but the problem is deeper every decision we make is based on how to save money.
Giving contracts to players we should be moving out is cheaper than buying a replacement.
Keeping a threadbare squad after relegation when that is the time to spend in an effort to get promoted.
I doubt we would have signed Dike had we been in a better position whoever comes in next as a mountain to climb to make this team half decent without financial support.
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Echoing some of the comments above...but I think he is staying.
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100 per cent correct. It doesnt mean VI is staying. The guy is finished so to release him reduces the wage bill. Simple and good economics in my book.
He's out of contract in the summer, they would have needed to pay some compensation, so not saving a lot.
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I do wonder wether any of our players would've accepted wilder
They hardly ran through brick walls for allardyce
Agreed.
Wilder likes to play a 3-4-2-1 (3-4-3) formation, he is more flexible than Ismael in that he'll change it to a 3-5-2 if chasing a game but in most other ways he's very similar. He rigidly stuck to his formation last season even though Sheff Utd were even worse than us.
Wilder built a squad capable of playing his way in a lower league.
At Boro he has taken on a team that have bought into his ideas, I'm not sure that would have happened here.
I do think if we'd have got Wilder in we'd be seeing a similar set of problems as we are seeing with Val
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The point in all of this is the selection policy from the Manager.
He has got it wrong time after time in the last 15 matches.
People moaning about a long ball game, it's the central midfield which dictates that style.
The ball is in the Managers court to change it back and earn some respect off the fans.
No one at the club has any football acumen to tell Ismael this style is wrong.
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Echoing some of the comments above...but I think he is staying.
He might be here until the next game but when that horror show is over all the board we’ll have achieved is to waste the 10 days when they could have got rid of him.
It’s not a matter of if but when. No manager in history survives when the crowd turns, at the absolute worst he sees the season out and is then removed, at best the horror is ended in the next few days, I’d rather Morrison until the end of the season and I hate caretaker managers.
The plan they have is almost right, the issue is the seriously chose the wrong man and also haven’t bothered with the plan themselves. Contracts to Phillips shows they don’t understand.
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The point in all of this is the selection policy from the Manager.
He has got it wrong time after time in the last 15 matches.
People moaning about a long ball game, it's the central midfield which dictates that style.
The ball is in the Managers court to change it back and earn some respect off the fans.
No one at the club has any football acumen to tell Ismael this style is wrong.
Snodgrass told him the style needed to change and his no longer at our club. The man needs to go and go NOW
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I was going to say this was the worst since Gould.
But even Gould signed Bob Taylor for £300,000. It's just that he signed Williams, White, Ampadu also.
Ardiles only got us to 4th from 7th the next season but the style was much better with astute signings like Donovan, Reid, Hamilton, Hunt.
Megson (twice), Mowbray, Di Matteo, Bilic all got us promoted for the 2nd tier.
We could be finishing bottom half which is the worst performance shortfall.
Burkinshaw, Buckley, Hartford, Smith, Little had no money in the 1990s, so more difficult to guage performance.
Ismael could be the worst of all?
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I have more faith in the players that you by the looks of it. I think they're better than losing 2-0 to Millwall. Grant has scored plenty at this level, Robbo is a decent player, we know Grady has high quality in him but the manager insists on playing in a way that completely nullifies what little skill we do have in the team.
I don't think we'd neccessarily do better than the last time we were in the champ, although this champ is weaker than any I can remember - but at the moment we're sliding right down the table.
At what point would you get rid then? If we finish 10th? 15th? Carry on regardless in the hope that his tactics suddenly start working?
I really can't understand why fans think we have a divine right to be in the top two.
These players are the team that just about got over the line for promotion last time we were in this division, with one major exception, Pereira, who carried the team that season. Without him we wouldn't have made the play offs. That's where we are at the moment. We are fighting for a play off place and thats the level this team is at. So why sack the manager when he is achieving the best which these players are capable of.
The season before we had half a team of premier class players, Gayle, Rodriguez, Barnes ( half a season), Dawson, Gibbs, Holgate (half a season). That season we only finished 4th and that was a far far better team than this one.
I think a lot of fans need to adjust their expectation levels to a more realistic level. This team was never going to finish in the top two. We had a good start but now the league is levelling itself out and we are going to end up at our level, challenging for a play off place.
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I was going to say this was the worst since Gould.
But even Gould signed Bob Taylor for £300,000. It's just that he signed Williams, White, Ampadu also.
Ardiles only got us to 4th from 7th the next season but the style was much better with astute signings like Donovan, Reid, Hamilton, Hunt.
Megson (twice), Mowbray, Di Matteo, Bilic all got us promoted for the 2nd tier.
We could be finishing bottom half which is the worst performance shortfall.
Burkinshaw, Buckley, Hartford, Smith, Little had no money in the 1990s, so more difficult to guage performance.
Ismael could be the worst of all?
Mowbray did it at the second attempt, while Bilic was the second season of us in the Championship.
Things look really bleak at the moment, that's for sure.
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Agreed.
Wilder likes to play a 3-4-2-1 (3-4-3) formation, he is more flexible than Ismael in that he'll change it to a 3-5-2 if chasing a game but in most other ways he's very similar. He rigidly stuck to his formation last season even though Sheff Utd were even worse than us.
Wilder built a squad capable of playing his way in a lower league.
At Boro he has taken on a team that have bought into his ideas, I'm not sure that would have happened here.
I do think if we'd have got Wilder in we'd be seeing a similar set of problems as we are seeing with Val
In which case the problem is not the manager but the players. Which also means that any other manager we might have we would have the same problem.
So do we just ask the players what manager they want !!! I don't think so.
If the players can't adapt then get players who can. Mowatt and Dike both signed for us when they knew the tactics Ismael uses. It just seems to be the players who have been at Albion far too long and are basically no good who can't or won't adapt.
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I really can't understand why fans think we have a divine right to be in the top two.
These players are the team that just about got over the line for promotion last time we were in this division, with one major exception, Pereira, who carried the team that season. Without him we wouldn't have made the play offs. That's where we are at the moment. We are fighting for a play off place and thats the level this team is at. So why sack the manager when he is achieving the best which these players are capable of.
The season before we had half a team of premier class players, Gayle, Rodriguez, Barnes ( half a season), Dawson, Gibbs, Holgate (half a season). That season we only finished 4th and that was a far far better team than this one.
I think a lot of fans need to adjust their expectation levels to a more realistic level. This team was never going to finish in the top two. We had a good start but now the league is levelling itself out and we are going to end up at our level, challenging for a play off place.
I don't see any Albion fans demanding top 2. Where we are now with points average is bottom 6, and he's stinking the place out with the style of football.
Are you saying this is acceptable?
How.on earth can we.expect to challenge the play offs from here? We are awful.
He has blatantly picked the wrong time, how can anyone say otherwise?
Crying out for quality in midfield, we had options to change it up with Snodgrass, Molumby, Gardner Hickman. We have no mobility in that area, let alone skill.
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I was going to say this was the worst since Gould.
But even Gould signed Bob Taylor for £300,000. It's just that he signed Williams, White, Ampadu also.
Ardiles only got us to 4th from 7th the next season but the style was much better with astute signings like Donovan, Reid, Hamilton, Hunt.
Megson (twice), Mowbray, Di Matteo, Bilic all got us promoted for the 2nd tier.
We could be finishing bottom half which is the worst performance shortfall.
Burkinshaw, Buckley, Hartford, Smith, Little had no money in the 1990s, so more difficult to guage performance.
Ismael could be the worst of all?
I see a big similarity with Gould clueless but will leave us with one decent signing, also by todays standards he has been given nothing to spend Dike was seen as an unwanted necessity by the club, in other words they thought he would get us promoted had we been performing better before he came I doubt they would have signed him.
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In which case the problem is not the manager but the players. Which also means that any other manager we might have we would have the same problem.
So do we just ask the players what manager they want !!! I don't think so.
If the players can't adapt then get players who can. Mowatt and Dike both signed for us when they knew the tactics Ismael uses. It just seems to be the players who have been at Albion far too long and are basically no good who can't or won't adapt.
You would need the fans to adapt also which isn't going to happen , hoofing it forward / rugby scrum set pieces and lofted crosses into a packed box is not enough entertainment wise .
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I think he is on his way out, but like others have said its all down to agreeing compo with both parties. I think he'll be gone by the end of the week.
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Greg. Central midfield. Mobility. Snodgrass. :P .
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You would need the fans to adapt also which isn't going to happen , hoofing it forward / rugby scrum set pieces and lofted crosses into a packed box is not enough entertainment wise .
So you think these players are capable of playing the same football as Man City or Liverpool.
I'm afraid its horses for courses. These bunch of players are not capable of playing entertaining , winning football and that's what everyone has got to understand.
Do you really think a new manager is going to turn these players into a wonderful, entertaining team. Bilic couldn't manage it, Allardyce couldn't manage it. So why on earth do fans think Ismael can achieve it. No one will manage it. The only way forward is build a team for the future which means getting rid of the dead wood, which unfortunately is going to take time.
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So you think these players are capable of playing the same football as Man City or Liverpool.
I'm afraid its horses for courses. These bunch of players are not capable of playing entertaining , winning football and that's what everyone has got to understand.
Do you really think a new manager is going to turn these players into a wonderful, entertaining team. Bilic couldn't manage it, Allardyce couldn't manage it. So why on earth do fans think Ismael can achieve it. No one will manage it. The only way forward is build a team for the future which means getting rid of the dead wood, which unfortunately is going to take time.
I beg to differ. I think we are better when we implement a more expansive style football football and we generally look better at it too than we do hoofing to forward.
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Looking almost certain that he's staying now. Imagine the atmosphere if/when we go 1 down against Sheffield United. He's lucky it's away.
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We've actually had some good passages of play in games. Something which tends to get overlooked in the white noise of scramble ball. We have. Honestly.
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So you think these players are capable of playing the same football as Man City or Liverpool.
I'm afraid its horses for courses. These bunch of players are not capable of playing entertaining , winning football and that's what everyone has got to understand.
Do you really think a new manager is going to turn these players into a wonderful, entertaining team. Bilic couldn't manage it, Allardyce couldn't manage it. So why on earth do fans think Ismael can achieve it. No one will manage it. The only way forward is build a team for the future which means getting rid of the dead wood, which unfortunately is going to take time.
There is a middle ground. No one is asking for City or Liverpool levels. It is notable that we have an abundance of tricky, pacey wingers/inside-forwards that play well with the ball at their feet. We're not utilising them when the ball is in the air and being headed back and forth in the middle of the park.
We're giving out extended contracts to Livermore, Bartley and Furlong. Hardly clearing out the dead wood. The only players we're clearing out is one we signed a year ago and an England keeper whose value we have let run down.
We're a mess, and I can't see what the plan is.
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So you think these players are capable of playing the same football as Man City or Liverpool.
I'm afraid its horses for courses. These bunch of players are not capable of playing entertaining , winning football and that's what everyone has got to understand.
Do you really think a new manager is going to turn these players into a wonderful, entertaining team. Bilic couldn't manage it, Allardyce couldn't manage it. So why on earth do fans think Ismael can achieve it. No one will manage it. The only way forward is build a team for the future which means getting rid of the dead wood, which unfortunately is going to take time.
I wouldn't ever defend some of the players , we know the core needed changing seasons ago .
What I will point out is most of these played decent football under Bilic less than 2 seasons ago . Some of them are seasoned internationals for lesser countries , 3 of them have played for England . Trying to shoehorn them into basic hoofball was never going to work and indeed the fans were only going to take so much especially when the points vanished . Not that we have a lot of money but I for one wouldn't give him another penny to create even more poor football , he's had long enough to turn this around .
It's pathetic to watch if I'm being honest .
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We've actually had some good passages of play in games. Something which tends to get overlooked in the white noise of scramble ball. We have. Honestly.
Absolutely this. And it always happens when the ball falls to someone's feet and Grady, Grant, Townsend or Robinson takes it on. Not hoofs it, plays it.
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We've actually had some good passages of play in games. Something which tends to get overlooked in the white noise of scramble ball. We have. Honestly.
yep, some of our best chances in recent games have come when the forwards have linked up or played off the main striker. Diangana, Philipps and Grant are all better 'on the floor' than in the air so why chuck up long diagonal balls to them to chase?
The biggest issue with changing the style for anyone is the big gaping hole where a midfield should be! We're overrun in there game after game and need at least another body in there but of course that would mean a different formation! Also, it's no surprise the 2nd halves are dire, they're knackered after chasing the ball for an hour instead of keeping it when in possession.
VI's approach would've been successful in 1988 when it was a new way to play but football has moved on a bit since Wimbledon's crazy gang approach of chucking long balls up to a big man to play off, to have wide players chucking in loads of crosses and players chucking long throws into the box.......... this approach didn't work for us with Bobby Gould and it won't work in today's game with these players at least and it really wouldn't work in the premier league (don't think VI would get near that with us of course). There's probably quite a few players in local pub leagues who could play that way I imagine?
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Absolutely this. And it always happens when the ball falls to someone's feet and Grady, Grant, Townsend or Robinson takes it on. Not hoofs it, plays it.
I have to say the good passges of play when it occurrs are very good, but they are hidden amongst mostly awful football where we don't keep the ball for more than 10 seconds and then its in the air.
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So you think these players are capable of playing the same football as Man City or Liverpool.
I'm afraid its horses for courses. These bunch of players are not capable of playing entertaining , winning football and that's what everyone has got to understand.
Do you really think a new manager is going to turn these players into a wonderful, entertaining team. Bilic couldn't manage it, Allardyce couldn't manage it. So why on earth do fans think Ismael can achieve it. No one will manage it. The only way forward is build a team for the future which means getting rid of the dead wood, which unfortunately is going to take time.
There is a significant chasm between entertaining football and what is being served up at the moment. I would settle for watchable football at this stage.
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If VI went this week possible managers would look at the squad and see O'Shea , Dike , Grady , Clarke , Johnstone, TGH, Robinson , Caroll , Grant ( I think he's limited ) , Townsend , Bartley plus a few promising youngsters ...maybe Livermore in the right system , Mowatt ( last season) .
I'm not saying they are Man City but they are capable of playing and winning games to a better level than what we are seeing now .
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yep, some of our best chances in recent games have come when the forwards have linked up or played off the main striker. Diangana, Philipps and Grant are all better 'on the floor' than in the air so why chuck up long diagonal balls to them to chase?
The biggest issue with changing the style for anyone is the big gaping hole where a midfield should be! We're overrun in there game after game and need at least another body in there but of course that would mean a different formation! Also, it's no surprise the 2nd halves are dire, they're knackered after chasing the ball for an hour instead of keeping it when in possession.
VI's approach would've been successful in 1988 when it was a new way to play but football has moved on a bit since Wimbledon's crazy gang approach of chucking long balls up to a big man to play off, to have wide players chucking in loads of crosses and players chucking long throws into the box.......... this approach didn't work for us with Bobby Gould and it won't work in today's game with these players at least and it really wouldn't work in the premier league (don't think VI would get near that with us of course). There's probably quite players in local pub leagues who could play that way I imagine?
You make some really good points there chap. My only thought is that he wants to mix the play up. The problem being the balance just isn't right. The balance should have been struck more clearly by this stage of the season though.
We've got an analytics team who scout the opposition. More often than not they match us up and try to nullify us. Opposition supporters only have to watch us twice a season.
We're being asked to watch it all the time. Needs to focus on our strengths and have the confidence to play to them. At the same time the players need to take responsibility in games. Too many have started to hide.
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If VI went this week possible managers would look at the squad and see O'Shea , Dike , Grady , Clarke , Johnstone, TGH, Robinson , Caroll , Grant ( I think he's limited ) , Townsend , Bartley plus a few promising youngsters ...maybe Livermore in the right system , Mowatt ( last season) .
I'm not saying they are Man City but they are capable of playing and winning games to a better level than what we are seeing now .
I disagree strongly here. They are not capable of playing at a better level.
O'shea and TGH maybe yes in the future that's why we need to look after those two. Johnstone is overated and never an England Keeper. Robinson couldn't get in the sheff utd team, Grant was never a regular at Huddesrfield, Caroll is past his best, Townsend, Bartley and Livermore are all championship players. Dike possibly premier quality, yet to be proved, Mowatt championship quality same with Diangana.
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With Snodgrass going got a feeling that board will carry on with Val for time being or even for rest of season, that’s my opinion anyway.
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I disagree strongly here. They are not capable of playing at a better level.
O'shea and TGH maybe yes in the future that's why we need to look after those two. Johnstone is overated and never an England Keeper. Robinson couldn't get in the sheff utd team, Grant was never a regular at Huddesrfield, Caroll is past his best, Townsend, Bartley and Livermore are all championship players. Dike possibly premier quality, yet to be proved, Mowatt championship quality same with Diangana.
I could be wrong but I’m not sure the original poster meant a better level ie the premier league, just that they’re capable of playing at a higher level of performance than they’ve shown so far this season. I would agree massively with that assessment personally.
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Genuine question, why do we bother scouting the opposition? We don't change how we set up or approach games no matter who we play.
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We've actually had some good passages of play in games. Something which tends to get overlooked in the white noise of scramble ball. We have. Honestly.
We should be playing well for 60-70 minutes in a game, not the 5-10 minute flashes we are seeing. Add in the fact that our finishing has been truly awful and it increases the pressure tenfold. Le Hoof's tactics just don't create chances often so when they aren't taken the pressure ramps up on the players and they snatch.
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Maybe he's already been sacked, and we are currently looking for a replacement, but have kept it under wraps?
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I disagree strongly here. They are not capable of playing at a better level.
O'shea and TGH maybe yes in the future that's why we need to look after those two. Johnstone is overated and never an England Keeper. Robinson couldn't get in the sheff utd team, Grant was never a regular at Huddesrfield, Caroll is past his best, Townsend, Bartley and Livermore are all championship players. Dike possibly premier quality, yet to be proved, Mowatt championship quality same with Diangana.
I think you are being harsh on some players and I would say we are underperforming by a long way we have just lost two games to teams that were struggling for wins and they beat us easily.
That is as much down to the manager as the players.
You keep saying we are challenging for top six for how much longer when Millwall can beat us without breaking sweat?
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I disagree strongly here. They are not capable of playing at a better level.
O'shea and TGH maybe yes in the future that's why we need to look after those two. Johnstone is overated and never an England Keeper. Robinson couldn't get in the sheff utd team, Grant was never a regular at Huddesrfield, Caroll is past his best, Townsend, Bartley and Livermore are all championship players. Dike possibly premier quality, yet to be proved, Mowatt championship quality same with Diangana.
I didn't say a better level , I did say better than what we have seen this season .Certainly something to work with here , what are in the form table right now ? 19th or 20th .
These players are better than what we are seeing , short term you build something using what you have not trying to force something that doesn't fit at all in a weak 2nd tier as VI has tried .
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Maybe he's already been sacked, and we are currently looking for a replacement, but have kept it under wraps?
I think this is most likely.
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Maybe he's already been sacked, and we are currently looking for a replacement, but have kept it under wraps?
Joe Massi said yesterday if he has already been sacked someone would have leaked it somehow and he reckoned it was silence from the club.
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Genuine question, why do we bother scouting the opposition? We don't change how we set up or approach games no matter who we play.
Opponents could save a fortune by not scouting us mate ;D
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Val already has more posts on him than Bilic managed in 18 months!
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Currently, I would suggest, only three people know what the future holds for Val, Guochuan, the Chairman and the CEO and until they have concluded their deliberations you will get water out of a stone easier.
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There is a significant chasm between entertaining football and what is being served up at the moment. I would settle for watchable football at this stage.
I'm in agreement with this.
We're not demanding swash buckiling tikka takka football.
There is a middle ground between that and this mind-numbing, predictable boring ***** that we're serving up.
And irrespective of what fans want - the performances of the players suggest they don't want it either. And that's far more worrying.
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Interesting article here on team building (Tuckman model)
https://www.teambuilding.co.uk/theory/Forming-Storming-Norming-Performing.html (https://www.teambuilding.co.uk/theory/Forming-Storming-Norming-Performing.html)
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I'm in agreement with this.
We're not demanding swash buckiling tikka takka football.
There is a middle ground between that and this mind-numbing, predictable boring ***** that we're serving up.
And irrespective of what fans want - the performances of the players suggest they don't want it either. And that's far more worrying.
Agreed. Above all else, that's why I'm eager for a new broom.
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Best performance of the season imo was Coventry away, while you could count on one hand games that team preformed well.
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Best performance of the season imo was Coventry away, while you could count on one hand games that team preformed well.
It's not often teams play well for ninety minutes (I know, it's not often that we play well at all; badoom tish). The opposition tend to have something to say about that kind of thing.
No idea how many fingers you've got on one hand but I think I must be on the wrong forum. An orange haze is beginning to fill my gaze. It hasn't obscured my vision that much though ;D .....
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Personally, I think this is brilliant and made me chuckle :D
https://twitter.com/Stuwba68/status/1488235517019832324
That made me chuckle to be fair.
I hope you're not 'superstitious' about such portents of doom ;D ;) .
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I'm in agreement with this.
We're not demanding swash buckiling tikka takka football.
There is a middle ground between that and this mind-numbing, predictable boring ***** that we're serving up.
And irrespective of what fans want - the performances of the players suggest they don't want it either. And that's far more worrying.
I would settle for something different Liam. If he went 433, 442 or 352 for the next few games, I would accept that, because it would mean we were at least trying to change things, even if results didn't improve dramatically.
All I ever want is to look forward to the next game, but that is almost impossible now, as we know we are going to get the same predictable dross. At least if he mixed it up a bit it would increase the anticipation and re-install a modicum of hope. If it didn't work then maybe he could blame the players, but, whilst he's sticking to this repetitive system, he putting all the onus on himself.
At the minute it just feels like an endless void with no goals in sight, let alone a string of good results.
I've never known such a stubborn manager with such a limited thought process. And that's not just in football, but in any industry I have worked in!
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I imagine that if he were a member of this forum he'd take your lead and copy and paste his own posts too Mr. Feet ;D .
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I imagine that if he were a member of this forum he'd take your lead and copy and paste his own posts too Mr. Feet ;D .
Do I do that? :-[
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Do I do that? :-[
No mate, it just feels like it sometimes. You're obviously very passionate about how you feel which is perfectly fine ;D .
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[
VI's approach would've been successful in 1988 when it was a new way to play but football has moved on a bit since Wimbledon's crazy gang approach of chucking long balls up to a big man to play off, to have wide players chucking in loads of crosses and players chucking long throws into the box.......... this approach didn't work for us with Bobby Gould and it won't work in today's game with these players at least and it really wouldn't work in the premier league (don't think VI would get near that with us of course). There's probably quite a few players in local pub leagues who could play that way I imagine?
[/quote]Does that mean we might go and get Roberto Carlos from Shropshire?!!!!!
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No mate, it just feels like it sometimes. You're obviously very passionate about how you feel which is perfectly fine ;D .
Not that I need anyone's reassurance but: Am I the only one?
I'm repetitive to promote change, because I don't want him to fail, because that means we fail.
I'm not an Anti-Valler, I'm, anti-plummeting down the table and unable to score goals, therefore believe all options should be exhausted before we just accept that fate. The only person stopping that is Val himself. If I was a few years younger, I would like to give him a good shake!
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Not that I need anyone's reassurance but: Am I the only one?
I'm repetitive to promote change, because I don't want him to fail, because that means we fail.
I'm not an Anti-Valler, I'm, anti-plummeting down the table and unable to score goals, therefore believe all options should be exhausted before we just accept that fate. The only person stopping that is Val himself. If I was a few years younger, I would like to give him a good shake!
No. You're not the only one. Not by a long shot. As stated, I understand and fully appreciate the rationale. Don't take it as a pop. It was just a tongue in cheek observation ;D .
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If he stays it will be just like the dregs of Pardew. I will just have a quick look to see how much we have lost by every few days.
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No point in bringing in another manger. The players just aren't good enough.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
If we intend to move forward we need a manager with more than a long ball game in his arsenal and we need to give him a war chest.
You can blame this season on the clever person upstairs who vetoed the appointment of Wilder. Our loss and Boro's gain
You can I give you Greece & Iceland - in european championships
1.Formulate a clear style 2.which suits your players, 3.stick to it, 4.develop it and 5.get ALL the players signed up to it.
We did parts 1 & 3.
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I would settle for something different Liam. If he went 433, 442 or 352 for the next few games, I would accept that, because it would mean we were at least trying to change things, even if results didn't improve dramatically.
All I ever want is to look forward to the next game, but that is almost impossible now, as we know we are going to get the same predictable dross. At least if he mixed it up a bit it would increase the anticipation and re-install a modicum of hope. If it didn't work then maybe he could blame the players, but, whilst he's sticking to this repetitive system, he putting all the onus on himself.
At the minute it just feels like an endless void with no goals in sight, let alone a string of good results.
I've never known such a stubborn manager with such a limited thought process. And that's not just in football, but in any industry I have worked in!
I am in total agreement with you.
Couldn't have worded it better myself.
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Am I right in reading that Val was in Germany till today. So on what could have been a pivotal transfer deadline day, having publicly fallen out with players, with no game this weekend, the decision was for him to be away from the club?
If that is the case, who is taking things seriously at this club.
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Am I right in reading that Val was in Germany till today. So on what could have been a pivotal transfer deadline day, having publicly fallen out with players, with no game this weekend, the decision was for him to be away from the club?
If that is the case, who is taking things seriously at this club.
Visiting family apparently.
Personally I wouldn't read too much into that, he clearly knew that we were not in the market for anyone else so didnt need to be here. Does make you wonder if we will get an update on his status if he is back in the country.
I cannot answer your second question as I really don't know......
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In which case the problem is not the manager but the players. Which also means that any other manager we might have we would have the same problem.
So do we just ask the players what manager they want !!! I don't think so.
If the players can't adapt then get players who can. Mowatt and Dike both signed for us when they knew the tactics Ismael uses. It just seems to be the players who have been at Albion far too long and are basically no good who can't or won't adapt.
we're singing from the same hymn sheet.
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I had high hopes but it seems the decision to bring Livermore back into the team, after 3 improved performances while he was suspended, will ultimately cost the manager his job.
Worrying times.
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we're singing from the same hymn sheet.
By that rationale though, he also bought in Hugill and Reach who didn't fit his own system.
Some you win, some you lose I guess, as with all transfers.
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John Percy just tweeted
Valérien Ismael is fighting for his #wba future but will take training on Wednesday when players return after a short break. Position still in doubt ahead of next match at Sheffield United
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John Percy just tweeted
Valérien Ismael is fighting for his #wba future but will take training on Wednesday when players return after a short break. Position still in doubt ahead of next match at Sheffield United
In doubt? There is no doubt about it, he’s pretty much fallen out with the entire playing squad and almost all the fans.
Can you imagine what training must be like?
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John Percy just tweeted
Valérien Ismael is fighting for his #wba future but will take training on Wednesday when players return after a short break. Position still in doubt ahead of next match at Sheffield United
Sounds like something may yet happen?
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John Percy just tweeted
Valérien Ismael is fighting for his #wba future but will take training on Wednesday when players return after a short break. Position still in doubt ahead of next match at Sheffield United
It also links to an article which is behind a pay wall, will be interesting to see what The Perce has said!
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In doubt? There is no doubt about it, he’s pretty much fallen out with the entire playing squad and almost all the fans.
Can you imagine what training must be like?
He has? I've only read about Snodgrass and Hugill (both now left) and Johnston (leaving soon). Do you know of others?
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It also links to an article which is behind a pay wall, will be interesting to see what The Perce has said!
Actually the article has very little new info really, the source of it is more interesting as it gives the rumours legs. Somebody has posted screenshots of the article on twitter under the #wba hashtag
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He has? I've only read about Snodgrass and Hugill (both now left) and Johnston (leaving soon). Do you know of others?
Ajayi and Robinson are two more I've heard .
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Ajayi and Robinson are two more I've heard .
Ah okay, hadn't read about either of these. Even if you're right hthough, still a way to go to get to the entire squad
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Actually the article has very little new info really, the source of it is more interesting as it gives the rumours legs. Somebody has posted screenshots of the article on twitter under the #wba hashtag
Well that’s interesting that Percy still has sources at the club as I heard it on good authority that he got a lot of his information directly from Luke Dowling.
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He has? I've only read about Snodgrass and Hugill (both now left) and Johnston (leaving soon). Do you know of others?
To be honest, Robinson’s attitude towards Val on the pitch has been a disgrace.
I am told through posters in here, who sit in close proximity to the dug out that CR has told Val to ‘**** off’ or words to that effect when called out for his lack of pressing during home games this season.
I’d have to crawl through me messages to find the game in question.
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Ah okay, hadn't read about either of these. Even if you're right hthough, still a way to go to get to the entire squad
If you’ve reports of 5 or 6 falling out with him it doesn’t bode well does it. One player can be seen as a bad apple, when you pass 4 you have to question who the problem really is.
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It also links to an article which is behind a pay wall, will be interesting to see what The Perce has said!
Nothing of note we have heard it all elsewhere.
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Ajayi and Robinson are two more I've heard .
I read Furlong wasn’t best pleased with him, don’t know why he should be
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TalkSport saying that he might be on the way but nothing confirmed yet.
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We could all predict he might go.
Some of the ‘ITKs’ do make me laugh though. One of the well known ones who said he was gone, is now using the Percy story as evidence he is right, and suggesting that he’ll only be taking training whilst severance is negotiated
There is absolutely no way if severance was being negotiated by lawyers he would be taking training. None. It would be gardening leave. Even a severance suggestion via a lawyer is a major case for constructive dismissal and clearly makes the role untenable nevermind any detailed negotiation.
He might still go before Sheffield United, but it’ll not be because negotiation has dragged on. It’ll either be we haven’t made or mind up, or we don’t want to play our hand without sounding out replacements.
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We could all predict he might go.
Some of the ‘ITKs’ do make me laugh though. One of the well known ones who said he was gone, is now using the Percy story as evidence he is right, and suggesting that he’ll only be taking training whilst severance is negotiated
There is absolutely no way if severance was being negotiated by lawyers he would be taking training. None. It would be gardening leave. Even a severance suggestion via a lawyer is a major case for constructive dismissal and clearly makes the role untenable nevermind any detailed negotiation.
He might still go before Sheffield United, but it’ll not be because negotiation has dragged on. It’ll either be we haven’t made or mind up, or we don’t want to play our hand without sounding out replacements.
Possible delay because we are getting somebody else in place?
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God I hope so. I kept faith in him for far too long. The guy's a disaster.
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Imagine if he’s chopped before Sheff U game, new gaffer is in the stands for Sheff u, and in charge for the game after. The game after being Blackburn… “the new manager†in charge for his first game, against “Blackburn†:o
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We could all predict he might go.
Some of the ‘ITKs’ do make me laugh though. One of the well known ones who said he was gone, is now using the Percy story as evidence he is right, and suggesting that he’ll only be taking training whilst severance is negotiated
There is absolutely no way if severance was being negotiated by lawyers he would be taking training. None. It would be gardening leave. Even a severance suggestion via a lawyer is a major case for constructive dismissal and clearly makes the role untenable nevermind any detailed negotiation.
He might still go before Sheffield United, but it’ll not be because negotiation has dragged on. It’ll either be we haven’t made or mind up, or we don’t want to play our hand without sounding out replacements.
I'm not sure that constructive dismissal is valid in this case, VI's on a closed contract (ie it has an end date), I believe constructive dismissal can only be applied to an open ended contract of employment.
On the other hand, there will undoubtedly be conditional clauses in the contract which lawyers will want to understand, so I agree the club will have been advised to proceed with caution.
Legal aspects aside though, looking at some of the names put forward on sm as replacements fill me with dread.
Although, it looks as though the club have chosen the wrong man, I really hope we continue with this re-build strategy.
There have been a number of comments about papering over the cracks, going back to the Pulis, Pardew, Allardyce days really would be.
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I’m trying to get a sense of what most people think might happen.
I’ve started to feel a resigned attitude at the prospect of VI staying and continuing to accelerate the nosedive into which he’s steered us. It’s like knowing a crash is coming because the wings have already fallen off, but the Board will force us to watch right through to the full horrifying impact.
But I feel a bit more hopeful at the speculation that they might still see sense and end this horror show once he returns from Germany.
I have no antipathy towards VI, or even particularly his “style of play.†I just don’t think he’s any good - certainly not in combination with the players we have.
There aren’t any optimistic signs to point to, and the mood could get really unpleasant if it goes on much longer. I really hope they bring it to a stop before we reach that level of poison.
So is he going, or not?
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Ajayi, Snodgrass, SJ, Zohore and Hugill were the 5 in his bombsquad that i heard of.
Snodgrass and Hugill gone so back down to 3 for sure but sounds like theres a few more on top
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Imagine if he’s chopped before Sheff U game, new gaffer is in the stands for Sheff u, and in charge for the game after. The game after being Blackburn… “the new manager†in charge for his first game, against “Blackburn†:o
If only.
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I've just come up with a great idea. Why don't i post Val's getting sacked every day, and when it happens i can take credit for it ;D
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Surely tomorrow's the day.
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I've just come up with a great idea. Why don't i post Val's getting sacked every day, and when it happens i can take credit for it ;D
There is a Twitter account that has been set up called is Val sacked yet and they just tweet No every few hours and hashtag the club 😂
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There is a Twitter account that has been set up called is Val sacked yet and they just tweet No every few hours and hashtag the club 😂
Oh dearie dearie me :D.
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I'm not sure that constructive dismissal is valid in this case, VI's on a closed contract (ie it has an end date), I believe constructive dismissal can only be applied to an open ended contract of employment.
On the other hand, there will undoubtedly be conditional clauses in the contract which lawyers will want to understand, so I agree the club will have been advised to proceed with caution.
Legal aspects aside though, looking at some of the names put forward on sm as replacements fill me with dread.
Although, it looks as though the club have chosen the wrong man, I really hope we continue with this re-build strategy.
There have been a number of comments about papering over the cracks, going back to the Pulis, Pardew, Allardyce days really would be.
Conte successfully claimed unfair dismissal. I think a lot of employment law is likely to still apply, even if on a fixed term contract.
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Ajayi, Snodgrass, SJ, Zohore and Hugill were the 5 in his bombsquad that i heard of.
Snodgrass and Hugill gone so back down to 3 for sure but sounds like theres a few more on top
All 5 of whom have been dropped at some point. Going off comments on here all have deserved to be dropped at sometime or another and yes I know there could and should have been others but I don’t think you can blame a manager for players spitting the dummy after being dropped !
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All 5 of whom have been dropped at some point. Going off comments on here all have deserved to be dropped at sometime or another and yes I know there could and should have been others but I don’t think you can blame a manager for players spitting the dummy after being dropped !
99% of the team are playing poorly under VI. That's the main problem.
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Conte successfully claimed unfair dismissal. I think a lot of employment law is likely to still apply, even if on a fixed term contract.
Constructive dismissal is more that the club makes his life so miserable we force him to quit.
If the club decides to pay up his contract and tell him to not bother coming in I don't think there's much he can do. Of course, it's not great for either party so there'd be negotiations on a severance package.
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Whatever happens we are left with a squad that flatters to deceive ( performance’s at the start of the season ) . The majority of supporters know which players should have gone at the end of last season’s relegation. The fact that those players are still here for the foreseeable future means we can not only forget about success this season but next season as well !
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Whatever happens we are left with a squad that flatters to deceive ( performance’s at the start of the season ) . The majority of supporters know which players should have gone at the end of last season’s relegation. The fact that those players are still here for the foreseeable future means we can not only forget about success this season but next season as well !
A new coach and fresh ideas will re-energize this group, they are all out of confidence and I don't think they believe that the way VI wants them to play will yield results.
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Constructive dismissal is more that the club makes his life so miserable we force him to quit.
If the club decides to pay up his contract and tell him to not bother coming in I don't think there's much he can do. Of course, it's not great for either party so there'd be negotiations on a severance package.
If they tell him not to come in yes. They point was that you can’t start these negotiations and the ask / tell him to take training.
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A new coach and fresh ideas will re-energize this group, they are all out of confidence and I don't think they believe that the way VI wants them to play will yield results.
For a couple of months?
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I read Furlong wasn’t best pleased with him, don’t know why he should be
I've noticed Furlong still keeps getting picked, don't know why he should be.
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99% of the team are playing poorly under VI. That's the main problem.
Of the players mentioned several were playing poorly long before Val rocked up. The main problem being they're not very good.
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For a couple of months?
enough to get us into the playoffs though
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So today is D-Day then, surely if he takes training he's staying for at least one more game? Otherwise its absolutely pointless and an even bigger farce than we thought!
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So today is D-Day then, surely if he takes training he's staying for at least one more game? Otherwise its absolutely pointless and an even bigger farce than we thought!
Agreed, if he sees today out we’re stuck with him until the next game which will be a loss, more pressure and more fan trouble.
All that will have been achieved is the loss of 10 days. He’s got no chance of turning this mess around so I’d imagine we just have to see what the magic number of dreadful performances is before the board act.
For over 90% of people we reached it in December.
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Of the players mentioned several were playing poorly long before Val rocked up. The main problem being they're not very good.
He's managed to bring them to new depths and with consistency not seen before though.
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I've noticed Furlong still keeps getting picked, don't know why he should be.
Because there really isn’t a viable alternative. TGH isn’t a wing back as of yet as defensively he is nowhere near the level required . He is however plenty good enough to play in midfield
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Because there really isn’t a viable alternative. TGH isn’t a wing back as of yet as defensively he is nowhere near the level required . He is however plenty good enough to play in midfield
Who decided that Furlong, Bartley, Livermore and Phillips should get their contracts extended, Val must have wanted them, surely those are the players that need replacing.
The only contract extension sanctioned by Val I agree with is Townsend and he has not played well since he signed his contract extension.
We need to cut our losses, the toxic feeling around the Hawthorns is not going to go away and we need a coach/manager with a style of play that at least we will not be bored with.
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Conte successfully claimed unfair dismissal. I think a lot of employment law is likely to still apply, even if on a fixed term contract.
As far as I understand it, current employment law extends to and covers football.
However, Contructive Dissmisal is when you resign from a position and then have to demonstrate to the tribunal that you had no other option but to resign, I don't think Val is going to rersign
Unfair Dismissal's are bought to the tribunal when you consider the sacking was unjustified.
That's my limited take on it
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To be honest, Robinson’s attitude towards Val on the pitch has been a disgrace.
I am told through posters in here, who sit in close proximity to the dug out that CR has told Val to ‘**** off’ or words to that effect when called out for his lack of pressing during home games this season.
I’d have to crawl through me messages to find the game in question.
An uncharacteristically brave thing for that bottle job to do.
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Curious.... and speaking as a former VI supporter, anyone at all on here still want him in the job?
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I'm not a VI fan, you can check my past recommendations - one of which was Graham Potter. But given the contract money involved, the fact that only poor managers will be available until the end of the season and given the current squad of players, I think we must resign ourselves to endure Valball until the end of the season. If we don't make the playoffs I'm sure there will be rumblings in Guangzhou* - although the Chinese are fond of 5 year plans.
The cheap alternative will be to hand over the manager's job to one of the coaches (e.g. Morrison) who might be even more under the influence of the senior players.
We've been through worse and darker days before: patience and humour required. Giving Ismael a complete season means we won't be tainted as a Watford type hire and fire club which would be a real turn-off to prospective managers. I think we ought to bring back the DoF system as at least there's some internal debate over the merits of prospective purchases.
*BTW I am not expecting that Guochuan's interventions will stretch to creating a new eco-town in West Bromwich.
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We've been through worse and darker days before: patience and humour required. Giving Ismael a complete season means we won't be tainted as a Watford type hire and fire club which would be a real turn-off to prospective managers. I think we ought to bring back the DoF system as at least there's some internal debate over the merits of prospective purchases.
Whatever you think of the squad it's better than this muppet is getting out of them. I fail to see how any manager worth his salt could not get more out of the players if he changed the system to a 4-5-1 for example. So the idea that we need to stick to VI because there's nobody better is absolute rubbish in my book.
And as for not being seen to be a Watford type club - who cares. Look at Watford not doing too bad and plus we've had 13 managers in 10 years so we are already a Watford hire and fire club.
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Whatever you think of the squad it's better than this muppet is getting out of them. I fail to see how any manager worth his salt could not get more out of the players if he changed the system to a 4-5-1 for example. So the idea that we need to stick to VI because there's nobody better is absolute rubbish in my book.
And as for not being seen to be a Watford type club - who cares. Look at Watford not doing too bad and plus we've had 13 managers in 10 years so we are already a Watford hire and fire club.
Thank you for your carefully considered and moderate response.
Watford are able to hire and fire because they have the backing of the Pozzo franchise. Just perhaps some supporters might like to start to loose that tag.
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Thank you for your carefully considered and moderate response.
Watford are able to hire and fire because they have the backing of the Pozzo franchise. Just perhaps some supporters might like to start to loose that tag.
No problem.
20th in the form table over the last 15 games, lowest goals tally, zero entertainment, many players completely lost form and confidence. Me and you could go in and do a better job
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Curious.... and speaking as a former VI supporter, anyone at all on here still want him in the job?
I wouldn't consider myself a fan of VI. I'm lucky to not be able to watch most games, but when I have it's clear the football is turgid and uninspiring.
I was willing, however, to stick with a project through a tough patch because I'm fed up of us firing a manager every time they hit a rocky spell, and I thought the idea of a four year project was absolutely what was needed given the amount of deadwood in our squad. If we got promoted we'd need another overhaul because seeing the team that failed last year get turned over in the Prem again just isn't my idea of fun.
That said, there are clear problems with the club, and how the manager is (or in this case, isn't) able to get results on the pitch.
While I am in favour of a clear out, I don't see many players improving in this system, and I'm unsure this manager has the ability to turn it around.
I think we're 20th in the form table (last 6 games), which just isn't good enough, regardless of where you think we ought to be finishing this year.
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Whatever you think of the squad it's better than this muppet is getting out of them. I fail to see how any manager worth his salt could not get more out of the players if he changed the system to a 4-5-1 for example. So the idea that we need to stick to VI because there's nobody better is absolute rubbish in my book.
I don't see why this isn't obvious to everyone. Just get him out, one of the coaches couldn't do a worse job for a few weeks.
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What times training today? #ticktock
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At start of season Val had us fired up upfront but we couldn’t defend for toffee then he sorted defensive issues and forwards couldn’t hit a barn door and now we are conceding and not scoring recipe for sacking.
If he’s given the chance to turn it around how does he first start getting results and second get fans back on side? Is it the simple case of changing personal and formation for rest of season?
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At start of season Val had us fired up upfront but we couldn’t defend for toffee then he sorted defensive issues and forwards couldn’t hit a barn door and now we are conceding and not scoring recipe for sacking.
If he’s given the chance to turn it around how does he first start getting results and second get fans back on side? Is it the simple case of changing personal and formation for rest of season?
After Preston he said the penny had dropped and changes needed to be made. He played the same side and made his subs on 59:48. Clown
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As far as I understand it, current employment law extends to and covers football.
However, Contructive Dissmisal is when you resign from a position and then have to demonstrate to the tribunal that you had no other option but to resign, I don't think Val is going to rersign
Unfair Dismissal's are bought to the tribunal when you consider the sacking was unjustified.
That's my limited take on it
I’m not disagreeing. Simply saying if you are basically told you are being sacked, the club want to breach your contract by terminating it and want to discuss paying you less than the full value of that contract, but in the meantime they want you to. take training. You would quit. You can’t be expected to work in that circumstance.
You wouldn’t take training with that going on.
Anyway, chances are they are training right now. If he’s taking it, I think that’s him getting at least another game.
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After Preston he said the penny had dropped and changes needed to be made. He played the same side and made his subs on 59:48. Clown
He actually didn't say that, it's just the way some have interpreted it.
What he said was, he's returning to the high press, high intensity game we saw at the beginning of the season.
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He actually didn't say that, it's just the way some have interpreted it.
What he said was, he's returning to the high press, high intensity game we saw at the beginning of the season.
But he forgot to tell the players then. Great management.
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After Preston he said the penny had dropped and changes needed to be made. He played the same side and made his subs on 59:48. Clown
don’t like his brand of football, man management or his tactics but if board stick with him just wondering what he has to do to improve performances and results? I mean I presume if he’s still here that board have expressed their concerns and he has proposed solutions.
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He actually didn't say that, it's just the way some have interpreted it.
What he said was, he's returning to the high press, high intensity game we saw at the beginning of the season.
We didn't see that either.
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I’m not disagreeing. Simply saying if you are basically told you are being sacked, the club want to breach your contract by terminating it and want to discuss paying you less than the full value of that contract, but in the meantime they want you to. take training. You would quit. You can’t be expected to work in that circumstance.
You wouldn’t take training with that going on.
Anyway, chances are they are training right now. If he’s taking it, I think that’s him getting at least another game.
Sorry I started this discussion, it's pretty academic anyway as the outcome is not if he's fired, it's just the amount of compensation he would be entitled to.
On an operational level, I'm not sure he can walk straight back into training where he left off on Saturday.
I think he'll need a clear the air meeting with both Ken & the players (two separate meetings)
I believe Ken will want to see a plan from VI on how he is going to repair the alleged disconnect between him & the players.
If Ken buys that, he'll be backed by the board & then he'll go on to have a clear the air meeting with the players.
I suspect we'll get a statement from the club of some sort today.
Do I want to keep VI? Not necessarily
Do I want to keep the strategy? Absolutely
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Because there really isn’t a viable alternative. TGH isn’t a wing back as of yet as defensively he is nowhere near the level required . He is however plenty good enough to play in midfield
Hang on a minute. He played well centrally. Gave us extra legs and dynamism yes. He may even become a central midfielder when he develops and settles on one position.
But I think you need to have a look at where he's spent the vast majority of his development so far. Out wide on either side. Defence and midfield. Not centrally.
He'll make mistakes wherever he plays but I'm confident he'll learn from those mistakes. And anyway, when's being poor defensively stopped Darnell Furlong getting picked?
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I'm stunned people think this guy will come good, give me one reason or one thing you have seen that makes you think this guy will turn it around?
A 4 year deal was one of the stupidest things the club have done in years. He's a lower league manager and always will be. I guarantee you Albion is the biggest job he ever has.
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I'm stunned people think this guy will come good, give me one reason or one thing you have seen that makes you think this guy will turn it around?
A 4 year deal was one of the stupidest things the club have done in years. He's a lower league manager and always will be. I guarantee you Albion is the biggest job he ever has.
My thoughts are now around who decided to 1) Pick Val 2) To give Val a 4 year deal. Surely that person(s) should also be for the chop as you cannot trust them to be involved in the replacement process.
If Football is now classed as business, then when an employee is found to be not suitable then a review also takes place to see who was at fault and they also go.
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I'm stunned people think this guy will come good, give me one reason or one thing you have seen that makes you think this guy will turn it around?
A 4 year deal was one of the stupidest things the club have done in years. He's a lower league manager and always will be. I guarantee you Albion is the biggest job he ever has.
There is no evidence that this bloke will 'come good' at any stage, but I will temper that with the caveat that the board must take a lot of responsibility for player churn, or distinct lack of.
The old guard need to go, whilst they are still here nothing will change. Big Sam saw that last season. The board seem to be financially limited, and that's fair enough if you employ a manager who is capable of getting the most out of the team and playing a style of football best suited to them, but to employ someone who has fell out with a lot of the team and does not seem to have a plan B is stupidity beyond belief.
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My thoughts are now around who decided to 1) Pick Val 2) To give Val a 4 year deal. Surely that person(s) should also be for the chop as you cannot trust them to be involved in the replacement process.
If Football is now classed as business, then when an employee is found to be not suitable then a review also takes place to see who was at fault and they also go.
Ridiculous to give such long contract especially by a club who were notorious for one year rolling contracts, that’s why I suspect club will stick by him through thick or thin.
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I'm stunned people think this guy will come good, give me one reason or one thing you have seen that makes you think this guy will turn it around?
A 4 year deal was one of the stupidest things the club have done in years. He's a lower league manager and always will be. I guarantee you Albion is the biggest job he ever has.
A 4 year deal without a series of review periods would indeed be stupid.
It would be sensible to have a review at the end of each season. The problem then, of course, is you have to give the manager the whole season to meet their criteria.
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My thoughts are now around who decided to 1) Pick Val 2) To give Val a 4 year deal. Surely that person(s) should also be for the chop as you cannot trust them to be involved in the replacement process.
If Football is now classed as business, then when an employee is found to be not suitable then a review also takes place to see who was at fault and they also go.
Chuckle Brother 1 have you seen what Ishmail did at Barnsley?
Chuckle Brother 2 yes, we should get him?
Chuckle Brother 1 not sure the fans will like valball
Chuckle Brother 2 As long as we are winning they will put up with it
Chuckle Brother 1 yes, he will cost us a few quid though
Chuckle Brother 2 Worth it to get promoted and we won't spend much on players
Chuckle Brother 1 Agreed then Ishmail it is this football game is easy .
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He actually didn't say that, it's just the way some have interpreted it.
What he said was, he's returning to the high press, high intensity game we saw at the beginning of the season.
Which was a change, compared to Preston, and didn't happen
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There is no evidence that this bloke will 'come good' at any stage, but I will temper that with the caveat that the board must take a lot of responsibility for player churn, or distinct lack of.
The old guard need to go, whilst they are still here nothing will change. Big Sam saw that last season. The board seem to be financially limited, and that's fair enough if you employ a manager who is capable of getting the most out of the team and playing a style of football best suited to them, but to employ someone who has fell out with a lot of the team and does not seem to have a plan B is stupidity beyond belief.
said it in Summer and Big Sam vindicated it that first team squad should have been disbanded, the likes of Livermore, Bartley Phillips and Furlong thanked and move on. There seems to have been a culture of player’s running the roost.
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Curious.... and speaking as a former VI supporter, anyone at all on here still want him in the job?
I'm always generally more patient in life and far more patient than most football fans. I keep saying that I'm willing to give him time as long as he adapts but week in week out he is as stubborn as a mule with this 343 and Jake Livermore.
My main issue is I think there are problems at every level of the club and I don't trust the board to even replace him well so I'm at a crossroads really. We need a DoF, and we need to create a DNA. We need to emulate what we had 15 years with Ashworth. Scouting network needs improving (Carroll, Snodgrass, new contracts to ageing players to all stop).
He wanted a CM according to reports, Dike being injured and bringing Carroll in stopped that but we all knew we needed to replace Dike short term, that was rotten luck.
If he changes the midfield for the next game I'd give him more time, if he changes the midfield and drops Livermore he's then bought until the end of the season.
If versus Sheff Utd he goes 343, we put in a tepid performance, picks Livermore and he makes obvious subs at 60 then genuinely nothing will ever change and we say goodbye.
If he makes all those changes then I'd give it a go for longer.
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said it in Summer and Big Sam vindicated it that first team squad should have been disbanded, the likes of Livermore, Bartley Phillips and Furlong thanked and move on. There seems to have been a culture of player’s running the roost.
It's been like it for years. I never understand the fans clamoring for the likes of Morrison or Brunt to take over. Whilst we have figures like this here then it's nothing more than an old boys club. We need to clear the decks completely.
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I'm always generally more patient in life and far more patient than most football fans. I keep saying that I'm willing to give him time as long as he adapts but week in week out he is as stubborn as a mule with this 343 and Jake Livermore.
My main issue is I think there are problems at every level of the club and I don't trust the board to even replace him well so I'm at a crossroads really. We need a DoF, and we need to create a DNA. We need to emulate what we had 15 years with Ashworth. Scouting network needs improving (Carroll, Snodgrass, new contracts to ageing players to all stop).
He wanted a CM according to reports, Dike being injured and bringing Carroll in stopped that but we all knew we needed to replace Dike short term, that was rotten luck.
If he changes the midfield for the next game I'd give him more time, if he changes the midfield and drops Livermore he's then bought until the end of the season.
If versus Sheff Utd he goes 343, we put in a tepid performance, picks Livermore and he makes obvious subs at 60 then genuinely nothing will ever change and we say goodbye.
If he makes all those changes then I'd give it a go for longer.
He was given that chance on Saturday v Milwall and nothing changed, the guy is clueless and needs to go.
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It's been like it for years. I never understand the fans clamoring for the likes of Morrison or Brunt to take over. Whilst we have figures like this here then it's nothing more than an old boys club. We need to clear the decks completely.
Lai has a decision to make he either invests and accepts the hangers on are going to drain his bank balance for a while sitting on the bench or sit and watch the club disintegrate losing even more money.
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I'm always generally more patient in life and far more patient than most football fans. I keep saying that I'm willing to give him time as long as he adapts but week in week out he is as stubborn as a mule with this 343 and Jake Livermore.
My main issue is I think there are problems at every level of the club and I don't trust the board to even replace him well so I'm at a crossroads really. We need a DoF, and we need to create a DNA. We need to emulate what we had 15 years with Ashworth. Scouting network needs improving (Carroll, Snodgrass, new contracts to ageing players to all stop).
He wanted a CM according to reports, Dike being injured and bringing Carroll in stopped that but we all knew we needed to replace Dike short term, that was rotten luck.
If he changes the midfield for the next game I'd give him more time, if he changes the midfield and drops Livermore he's then bought until the end of the season.
If versus Sheff Utd he goes 343, we put in a tepid performance, picks Livermore and he makes obvious subs at 60 then genuinely nothing will ever change and we say goodbye.
If he makes all those changes then I'd give it a go for longer.
I won't repeat myself, in case Dan phones the cut n paste police but, suffice to say, I agree with this.
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I'm stunned people think this guy will come good, give me one reason or one thing you have seen that makes you think this guy will turn it around?
A 4 year deal was one of the stupidest things the club have done in years. He's a lower league manager and always will be. I guarantee you Albion is the biggest job he ever has.
He's managed in Europe. When did we last manage to get into Europe?
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I do think the "he doesn't adapt" stick is an odd one to beat a manager with.
Most managers have their principles that they believe will bring success, and very few chop and change between styles - usually those that do aren't particularly successful, though I'm sure you can find exceptions if you look hard enough.
So him not wanting to stop pressing or playing vertical football is understandable.
I can even understand wanting a back 3 or a front three, because there are certain advantages, but I will say that many managers do change formations while keeping to their principles.
You can sit in a low block in a 4-4-2, or a 4-5-1, and you can press in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 as well. So while I don't blame VI for sticking to his principles, it's also the responsibility of the manager to get results and change things if they aren't working.
Livermore in front of the back 4 could drop in to make a back 3 in possession, while allowing two midfielders ahead of him to play as 8s rather than 6s.
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It's been like it for years. I never understand the fans clamoring for the likes of Morrison or Brunt to take over. Whilst we have figures like this here then it's nothing more than an old boys club. We need to clear the decks completely.
You make a very valid point here Smethwickw. Morrison and Brunt, as I understand it, have been among the main opponents to other managers who have tried to change things. I would be very disappointed if they are allowed to take charge, however short term.
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I do think the "he doesn't adapt" stick is an odd one to beat a manager with.
Most managers have their principles that they believe will bring success, and very few chop and change between styles - usually those that do aren't particularly successful, though I'm sure you can find exceptions if you look hard enough.
So him not wanting to stop pressing or playing vertical football is understandable.
I can even understand wanting a back 3 or a front three, because there are certain advantages, but I will say that many managers do change formations while keeping to their principles.
You can sit in a low block in a 4-4-2, or a 4-5-1, and you can press in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 as well. So while I don't blame VI for sticking to his principles, it's also the responsibility of the manager to get results and change things if they aren't working.
Livermore in front of the back 4 could drop in to make a back 3 in possession, while allowing two midfielders ahead of him to play as 8s rather than 6s.
100%! I want him to keep those principles, I enjoyed watching it when we were pressing and the pinning of full backs and using the sidelines to pressure opponents(look up Tifo's Youtube video on gegenpress if you aren't sure what i mean). He should never lose those principles but should be more "adaptable" (maybe it isn't the right word) on formations and players within those formations.
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It's been like it for years. I never understand the fans clamoring for the likes of Morrison or Brunt to take over. Whilst we have figures like this here then it's nothing more than an old boys club. We need to clear the decks completely.
Who would have thought this type of statement would be made about two of our most loyal and committed past players. A claim that they are not ready or able to take us forward is one thing but this concept that they are part of a rotten core of "old boys club" wow!! unbelievable.
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I do think the "he doesn't adapt" stick is an odd one to beat a manager with.
Most managers have their principles that they believe will bring success, and very few chop and change between styles - usually those that do aren't particularly successful, though I'm sure you can find exceptions if you look hard enough.
So him not wanting to stop pressing or playing vertical football is understandable.
I can even understand wanting a back 3 or a front three, because there are certain advantages, but I will say that many managers do change formations while keeping to their principles.
You can sit in a low block in a 4-4-2, or a 4-5-1, and you can press in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 as well. So while I don't blame VI for sticking to his principles, it's also the responsibility of the manager to get results and change things if they aren't working.
Livermore in front of the back 4 could drop in to make a back 3 in possession, while allowing two midfielders ahead of him to play as 8s rather than 6s.
This 100%
We lack in the midfield to allow us to change tact in game. We really missed the boat in getting a decent all round midfielder. Even Jeff Hendrick would have been a good fit in a midfield that is better defensively than offensively.
Hell id even have Sawyers back to dictate some play further forward.
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I do think the "he doesn't adapt" stick is an odd one to beat a manager with.
Most managers have their principles that they believe will bring success, and very few chop and change between styles - usually those that do aren't particularly successful, though I'm sure you can find exceptions if you look hard enough.
So him not wanting to stop pressing or playing vertical football is understandable.
I can even understand wanting a back 3 or a front three, because there are certain advantages, but I will say that many managers do change formations while keeping to their principles.
You can sit in a low block in a 4-4-2, or a 4-5-1, and you can press in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 as well. So while I don't blame VI for sticking to his principles, it's also the responsibility of the manager to get results and change things if they aren't working.
Livermore in front of the back 4 could drop in to make a back 3 in possession, while allowing two midfielders ahead of him to play as 8s rather than 6s.
But surely adapting is just the word used to summarise what you have gone on to describe - ie making changes to suit the situation?
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This 100%
We lack in the midfield to allow us to change tact in game. We really missed the boat in getting a decent all round midfielder. Even Jeff Hendrick would have been a good fit in a midfield that is better defensively than offensively.
Hell id even have Sawyers back to dictate some play further forward.
Watched Sheffield United on Saturday night. Conor Hourihane on loan for them, he would have been ideal in a Val midfield.
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He's managed in Europe. When did we last manage to get into Europe?
:o :o :o The list of terrible managers who've managed in Europe is as long as the ball is in the air when Val is your manager.
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I do think the "he doesn't adapt" stick is an odd one to beat a manager with.
Most managers have their principles that they believe will bring success, and very few chop and change between styles - usually those that do aren't particularly successful, though I'm sure you can find exceptions if you look hard enough.
So him not wanting to stop pressing or playing vertical football is understandable.
I can even understand wanting a back 3 or a front three, because there are certain advantages, but I will say that many managers do change formations while keeping to their principles.
You can sit in a low block in a 4-4-2, or a 4-5-1, and you can press in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 as well. So while I don't blame VI for sticking to his principles, it's also the responsibility of the manager to get results and change things if they aren't working.
Livermore in front of the back 4 could drop in to make a back 3 in possession, while allowing two midfielders ahead of him to play as 8s rather than 6s.
Exactly this Mark. It would also allow for a more creative midfielder to be included in the 2 when needed depending on the state of the game or opposition. This is being flexible but does need the right personnel of course.
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I do think the "he doesn't adapt" stick is an odd one to beat a manager with.
Most managers have their principles that they believe will bring success, and very few chop and change between styles - usually those that do aren't particularly successful, though I'm sure you can find exceptions if you look hard enough.
So him not wanting to stop pressing or playing vertical football is understandable.
I can even understand wanting a back 3 or a front three, because there are certain advantages, but I will say that many managers do change formations while keeping to their principles.
You can sit in a low block in a 4-4-2, or a 4-5-1, and you can press in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 as well. So while I don't blame VI for sticking to his principles, it's also the responsibility of the manager to get results and change things if they aren't working.
Livermore in front of the back 4 could drop in to make a back 3 in possession, while allowing two midfielders ahead of him to play as 8s rather than 6s.
I'm sorry but when the opposition have all worked you out after PBoro away you have to find a way of making your press work in other ways.
He clearly doesn't see it.
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He's managed in Europe. When did we last manage to get into Europe?
Benidorm for that pre season game if you don't count Swansea or Cardiff. If managing in Europe is a barometer for potential Albion success moving forward you'll have Ken thumbing through a list including the likes of Shteeve McClaren, Tony Adams, Gary Neville and a return of the one and only eat himself if he was chocolate Alan Pardew. Haven't we suffered enough man ;D ?
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Peterborough away in August rang alarm bells for me a bit but the Blues win at home in mid October said to me VI badly needed a fresh approach - a new plan A and a plan B as it just wasn't working. Against Blues I really couldn't believe how poor and basic our tactics were. It was like going back to a third tier game in 1990 under Gould but with a 'continental' 3-4-3 formation to bamboozle everyone that VI was a fancy continental coach.
It's crazy to think we're here nearly four months on and he's persisted with the same approach which hasn't worked for so long. It's even crazier to think amidst the pressure on him that he's not even tried anything different - personnel or set up. It's actually a bit weird unless he really believes it's ok in which case it's scary?
He's just not a talented coach in my view and can't seem to man manage players very well either based on the evidence of the past months here. You can just use a stick to beat modern players - Fergie said this, they need to be made to feel loved even when they're not as well as being given boundaries. You treat them a bit like teenagers I guess!
We're 20th based on the past 15 games for the very good reason that VI hasn't got the knowledge/ ability/ character (delete as appropriate) to change it. For someone supposedly given four years to build a club that's horrendous. I firmly believe he would take us down if he had another full season after this one. He is LE GOULD pour moi, c'est finis et au revoir
VI simply hasn't earned the right to take us forward in my book and the rebuild needs to be give to someone who is more capable.
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Still no news he's here for the next game at least isn't he?
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He's gone official
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Just had text saying he's gone, don't know how true it is.
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"Joe Chapman
@ChapmanJ92
Breaking: West Bromwich Albion have confirmed that Valerien Ismael has left the club. #wba
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"West Bromwich Albion
@WBA
West Bromwich Albion Football Club can confirm Valérien Ismaël has today left his position as head coach."
Official Twitter. Thank the stars.
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Yellow weather warning just been issued for West Brom as the cumulative sighs of relief, could reach gale force!
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https://www.wba.co.uk/news/club-statement-valerien-ismael
West Bromwich Albion Football Club can confirm Valérien Ismaël has today left his position as head coach.
Assistant head coach Adam Murray has also departed The Hawthorns.
The club would like to place on record its thanks to Valérien and Adam for their efforts and wishes them well in the future.
The process of recruiting a new head coach is now under way and an appointment will be announced in due course.
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Yellow weather warning just been issued for West Brom as the cumulative sighs of relief, could reach gale force!
It is a massive relief to be fair.
I don't like to see anyone sacked, regardless of my personal view of him, but the only way was down with this guy, slowly but surely.
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Best for both parties , awful football is one thing but the point total and form says it all .
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HES GONEEEEEEEEE ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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CR birthday today ,nice pressie.
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Jake Livermore as player manager ?
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Thank god for that.
Now Albion, you have some serious work to do, starting with the board taking a long hard look who brought this clown in.
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He should have gone weeks ago. It was a very poor appointment based on one good season at Barnsley. We’ve got to stump up the righ money to get a top class replacement.
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lai can't afford another mistake and needs to back the next manager if he doesn't want to see his investment disappear in smoke.
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praise the lord, what a relief
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Yes i know i am stating the bleedin obvious but we need to get the next head coach 100% right.
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I'll say this for the club, it's pretty much leak free, still not even made the E&S.
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"Steve Madeley
@SteveMadeley78
For what it's worth, I don't think anyone in the media will take any pleasure in Valerien Ismael going. He was unfailingly courteous, engaging & generous with his time. But it wasn't working and there were no signs it would. It's the correct decision. #WBA"
It is the correct decision. It was a bold appointment to get a manager with a niche style and it worked for 5 games it was very promising but it went downhill from there and fast as well.
His stubborness has cost him his job ultimately.
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The right decision for all parties..........I'd prefer us to take some time to get the next appointment(s) right - I think we need a DoF and new scouting structure as well as a new head coach. This time it needs to be done properly .
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Ismaelâ€s job had become untenable
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"Steve Madeley
@SteveMadeley78
For what it's worth, I don't think anyone in the media will take any pleasure in Valerien Ismael going. He was unfailingly courteous, engaging & generous with his time. But it wasn't working and there were no signs it would. It's the correct decision. #WBA"
It is the correct decision. It was a bold appointment to get a manager with a niche style and it worked for 5 games it was very promising but it went downhill from there and fast as well.
His stubborness has cost him his job ultimately.
The media were half the issue, just because he's a nice guy doesn't mean he shouldn't have been getting seriously questioned when things went south. Every interview was the same no matter the result.
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The media were half the issue, just because he's a nice guy doesn't mean he shouldn't have been getting seriously questioned when things went south. Every interview was the same no matter the result.
Very true Phil. He was given an easy ride by them. Still it's over now and we can all move on.
Must be a relief to Val as well, i don't mean in terms of the payoff but he was damaging his own career by staying here.
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GONE. Thank FS
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Hallelujah - he’s gone!
🙏 are answered
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Thank the lord for that.
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Very true Phil. He was given an easy ride by them. Still it's over now and we can all move on.
Must be a relief to Val as well, i don't mean in terms of the payoff but he was damaging his own career by staying here.
He'll be at Barnsley in less than 3 weeks is my guess.
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Very good news.
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Finally he's gone.
Poor appointment by Ken, hope he has learnt from that and find some professionals to help him.
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Good news...now let's see if some of these players of ours can turn up
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Interesting timing. If we’ve started looking already and can get someone in relatively quickly, they’ll have a good chunk of time with the players before the next game.
No transfer window though so they’ll have to make do with what we’ve got. Now it’s time for the players to finally show whether it is indeed them that are the issue, or whether it was the manager
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Rejoice. Absolutely correct decision.
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Just passed the Halfords Lane and think there is a party going on in an upstairs suite with ABBA playing. Cake is just being delivered as well. Coincidence?
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I can't believe Ismael lost his job in this manner.
In that he didn't change anything at any stage.
He must've known the Millwall match was critical?
Anyone else would have been changing everything in a last ditch bid to avoid the sack.
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I can't believe Ismael lost his job in this manner.
In that he didn't change anything at any stage.
He must've known the Millwall match was critical?
Anyone else would have been changing everything in a last ditch bid to avoid the sack.
Principals are easier to stick to when the sack comes with a massive pay off. It is madness though, to make no attempt to find a winning formula was just beyond bizarre.
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You know what's going to happen now don't you? He's going to reflect and learn from his mistakes, return to the Midlands and win the Champions League with the Villa or the Wolves. It's in the tea leaves ;D .
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You know what's going to happen now don't you? He's going to reflect and learn from his mistakes, return to the Midlands and win the Champions League with the Villa or the Wolves. It's in the tea leaves ;D .
I'll have whatever type of tea you have been drinking Dan ;D
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Could have worked but stubbornness cost him his job. Never want anything at Albion to fail but right decision as we can still salvage this season.
Why is every appointment we make 'the most important to the future of the club"? Hope the board are learning from their mistakes.
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For me, it's always sad to see a Manager / Head Coach lose his job. But this has lifted me 8)
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Turned out nice again..... ;D
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Turned out nice again..... ;D
Right, that’s another one for the trash can - who is our next victim :-\
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I do feel relieved too. I hate having our fan base split and it’s been splitting since November.
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Normally when a manager goes I have those doubts such as “was he given enough time?†or “was it unfair?â€
I don’t feel any of that this time. It’s sad to see anyone lose their job - even if the compensation will run into sums most of us can only dream about - but the overwhelming feeling for me is one of relief.
The poor quality of our squad remains. No manager can turn them into worldbeaters. But they surely can’t actually play any worse than they have been - almost bottom of the form league in a weak Championship over a period of months, not weeks.
I have very little confidence in the ability of the people running the club to make good choices. They have a track record of getting it wrong pretty much every time, which is why we are now basically a mid table Championship team. There is plenty of trepidation for the future.
But anything has to be better than the last three months of appalling results and even poorer displays. In this case we shouldn’t be “careful what we wish for†- because we already had something that was a nightmare that wasn’t going to end.
I’m anxious about what next - they need to get lucky. I’m pessimistic/realistic about the poor quality of our squad. But above all I’m relieved that a change has been made.
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I do feel relieved too. I hate having our fan base split and it’s been splitting since November.
Our fan base has pretty much always been split. Tipton, Wednesbury, Dudley, Cradley, West Bromwich, Smethwick, Handsworth etc. It's an unholy and fractious alliance at the best of times I tell you ;D .
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8 managers in Lais ownership is not a good look . Some sort of stability is desperately required now.
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Sky Sports just stated that Enzo is under serious consideration.
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It was inevitable really, I genuinely think that for once the fans of a club have got a manager sacked. I feel that the club probably agreed with Val that there needed to be a long-term overhaul of some of the rotten culture and bad attitude players within the club and that would take a long tie to do. However at this point from what they must be reading all over social media and at the games it's just not possible for it to continue.
There's no excuse really for some of the results and performances, I'm not some kind of Val lover but I do think he got a bit of a rough deal. I look at the squad we have and I really think it is so much poorer than I ever remember it being. I don't know where we go from here but I hope whatever happens we get a bit of a new manager boost to secure a playoff spot.
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It was inevitable really, I genuinely think that for once the fans of a club have got a manager sacked. I feel that the club probably agreed with Val that there needed to be a long-term overhaul of some of the rotten culture and bad attitude players within the club and that would take a long tie to do. However at this point from what they must be reading all over social media and at the games it's just not possible for it to continue.
There's no excuse really for some of the results and performances, I'm not some kind of Val lover but I do think he got a bit of a rough deal. I look at the squad we have and I really think it is so much poorer than I ever remember it being. I don't know where we go from here but I hope whatever happens we get a bit of a new manager boost to secure a playoff spot.
Tend to agree with all of this.
Although I agree with Ken's strategy, his communication was non existent, I think he should have backed VI more if it was his appointment.
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Val was just a bad appointment and it looks like he and those who appointed him have been removed. The football was as agricultural as i have seen from Albion in a long time. I can't get to the Hawthorns, but get a lot of the games on ESPN+ and it was so bad I had given up watching live streams. I was reduced to flicking through the games for any highlights, so generally it only took a couple of minutes.
Not sure what to say that's positive about Val other than he stuck to his guns.
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9 different managerial posts and he's only 46. Speaks volumes does that.
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SSN saying board sacked him based on results which is fair enough.
Dorsett saying Enzo Maresca is serious contender as Smethwickw said earlier.
His record at Parma wasn't great to be fair hence why he was sacked i guess ;D
SSN saying Mozza running training until a new appointment.
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9 different managerial posts and he's only 46. Speaks volumes does that.
not that particularly shocking when 4 of them are with German academies and 2 are the Same team.
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That was the easy bit. Now comes the difficult bit, finding a good replacement. Will not be easy finding anyone with an above average track record who is currently available. And if we do, can we afford them after paying off Val's compensation?
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I thought he’d come good and I think he’ll be a very good manager for someone at some point. If we’d found a goal in a few games things would have been masssively different and sometimes a process can be trusted over short time results.
Sadly I think confidence and believe got destroyed and Those last two games were awful. Allowing him to bring Dike was never going to make him bulletproof until the end of the season and results over a fairly lengthy period of time weren’t great. Not sure that’s all down to him though.
Overall I feel a bit disappointed it’s ended like this and nervous about what’s coming.
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Val was just a bad appointment and it looks like he and those who appointed him have been removed. The football was as agricultural as i have seen from Albion in a long time. I can't get to the Hawthorns, but get a lot of the games on ESPN+ and it was so bad I had given up watching live streams. I was reduced to flicking through the games for any highlights, so generally it only took a couple of minutes.
Not sure what to say that's positive about Val other than he stuck to his guns.
Well one has been promoted as CEO
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Who would have thought this type of statement would be made about two of our most loyal and committed past players. A claim that they are not ready or able to take us forward is one thing but this concept that they are part of a rotten core of "old boys club" wow!! unbelievable.
I've never bought the loyalty thing at all. They were both being paid handsomely for regular top flight football. Why would they want to move on? Not knocking them at all but I'd say it's more a case of looking after themselves than loyalty. Mozza only stayed on here as we were offering more money than Middlesbrough.
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Hey JC totally agree with your summation of the club atm.
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Had a browse at the list of names on SkyBet, thoroughly depressing.
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Disappointing in the end. I wanted it to work and would’ve been nice to have his philosophy take root here. He is a strong presence and good leader and I think his style will work somewhere.
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It was inevitable really, I genuinely think that for once the fans of a club have got a manager sacked. I feel that the club probably agreed with Val that there needed to be a long-term overhaul of some of the rotten culture and bad attitude players within the club and that would take a long tie to do. However at this point from what they must be reading all over social media and at the games it's just not possible for it to continue.
There's no excuse really for some of the results and performances, I'm not some kind of Val lover but I do think he got a bit of a rough deal. I look at the squad we have and I really think it is so much poorer than I ever remember it being. I don't know where we go from here but I hope whatever happens we get a bit of a new manager boost to secure a playoff spot.
I couldn't disagree more.
After Coventry in early December, bringing back Livermore for Gardner Hickman was a total disaster.
That's where it all turned sour for Ismael and sowed the seeds of his downfall.
He is 100% to blame, total stupidity is what's cost him.
A run of 1 point per game over about 12 games is shameful with this squad.
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We never really gave the guy a fair chance. Hired a manager with a style that most of our players aren’t suited to - what did the board expect after 6 months and very little backing? What happened to the 4 year contract meaning a long term plan? And why after zero backing do we suddenly sack him after we finally spent the little money we do seem to have on the one player he has wanted/needed since the summer?
Who knows where we’d be if we’d had a fit Dike since August but I don’t think it’s a stretch with our xG to think we’d be in touching distance of the top two. Given the lack of quality in our squad compared to Fulham & Bournemouth I think that’s about as high as we could realistically aim to be, even if we’d had consistency with our squad, manager & playing style - which we absolutely did not.
Sadly the problems at the club run a lot deeper than a manager who was set-up to fail.
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We never really gave the guy a fair chance. Hired a manager with a style that most of our players aren’t suited to - what did the board expect after 6 months and very little backing? What happened to the 4 year contract meaning a long term plan? And why after zero backing do we suddenly sack him after we finally spent the little money we do seem to have on the one player he has wanted/needed since the summer?
Who knows where we’d be if we’d had a fit Dike since August but I don’t think it’s a stretch with our xG to think we’d be in touching distance of the top two. Given the lack of quality in our squad compared to Fulham & Bournemouth I think that’s about as high as we could realistically aim to be, even if we’d had consistency with our squad, manager & playing style - which we absolutely did not.
Sadly the problems at the club run a lot deeper than a manager who was set-up to fail.
Disappointing in the end. I wanted it to work and would’ve been nice to have his philosophy take root here. He is a strong presence and good leader and I think his style will work somewhere.
I thought he’d come good and I think he’ll be a very good manager for someone at some point. If we’d found a goal in a few games things would have been masssively different and sometimes a process can be trusted over short time results.
Sadly I think confidence and believe got destroyed and Those last two games were awful. Allowing him to bring Dike was never going to make him bulletproof until the end of the season and results over a fairly lengthy period of time weren’t great. Not sure that’s all down to him though.
Overall I feel a bit disappointed it’s ended like this and nervous about what’s coming.
Pretty much my thinking too.
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Couldn't have gone on for much longer given the run of results, poor football and lack of goals. We became so predictable.
It a shame how it ended as it couldn't have started much better for him.
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We never really gave the guy a fair chance. Hired a manager with a style that most of our players aren’t suited to - what did the board expect after 6 months and very little backing?
Wouldn't the sensible manager adapt his tactics to the squad available though?
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We never really gave the guy a fair chance. Hired a manager with a style that most of our players aren’t suited to - what did the board expect after 6 months and very little backing? What happened to the 4 year contract meaning a long term plan? And why after zero backing do we suddenly sack him after we finally spent the little money we do seem to have on the one player he has wanted/needed since the summer?
Who knows where we’d be if we’d had a fit Dike since August but I don’t think it’s a stretch with our xG to think we’d be in touching distance of the top two. Given the lack of quality in our squad compared to Fulham & Bournemouth I think that’s about as high as we could realistically aim to be, even if we’d had consistency with our squad, manager & playing style - which we absolutely did not.
Sadly the problems at the club run a lot deeper than a manager who was set-up to fail.
Certainly, major problems within the club but bottom line our results should have been better and continuing with the same players who fail every week is what got him the sack.
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Wouldn't the sensible manager adapt his tactics to the squad available though?
he did, it made us worse.
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Couldn't have gone on for much longer given the run of results, poor football and lack of goals. We became so predictable.
It a shame how it ended as it couldn't have started much better for him.
Yep. Because the run has been sooo horrid it left no choice really. Honestly two different results and he could still be here. Reverse the QPR match, get that late penalty vs Cardiff and he is probably still here. Thin margins
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Just shows why refs need to be held to account as 2 pen. decisions keep VI in a job and us well in touch for automatic promotion!
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A good manager would have come into the club and looked at the players and designed a formation that suits the existing players and their strenghts. What he did was come in and just try to crowbar players into his system. He gave himslef no chance at all of succeeding.
Awful manager and so glad he is gone and wont be coming back!!
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Wouldn't the sensible manager adapt his tactics to the squad available though?
I agree, it was a four month slow car crash waiting to happen . It was obvious VI's approach wasn't working for a long time. The club held on as long as they could. I just don't get what 'potential' people saw in VI, his approach to football was just something our of the 1980s/ 90s lower leagues .
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A good manager would have come into the club and looked at the players and designed a formation that suits the existing players and their strenghts. What he did was come in and just try to crowbar players into his system. He gave himslef no chance at all of succeeding.
Awful manager and so glad he is gone and wont be coming back!!
Name a top manager who does that? Every top manager has their principles and fits the players to their system
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Name a top manager who does that? Every top manager has their principles and fits the players to their system
Come on mate, they may have basic principles, but, every minute, of every game? I have never known a more inflexible manager and his in-game management was the worst I've seen in 40 odd years, bar none.
Flexibility, experience and a bit of nous should be way up the list. Yes it may be short term, but that is where we are as a club. Promotion is still achievable.
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I think it's fair to say all managers have a preferred style/formation but i've never seen anyone as inflexible as VI. Was just madness.
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Name a top manager who does that? Every top manager has their principles and fits the players to their system
I couldn't disagree more, all the top managers do, maybe its not clear to Albion fans as its been a very long time since we have had a top manager.
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Come on mate, they may have basic principles, but, every minute, of every game? I have never known a more inflexible manager and his in-game management was the worst I've seen in 40 odd years, bar none.
Flexibility, experience and a bit of nous should be way up the list. Yes it may be short term, but that is where we are as a club. Promotion is still achievable.
The post I'm quoting is that VI should have changed the way he played to fit the players.
I don't remember Klopp doing that, or Tuchel or Guardiola. Managers these days have their way of playing and it's on the club if his principles didn't match the playing staff. That's why you need long term, joined up thinking so things like that don't happen.
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I couldn't disagree more, all the top managers do, maybe its not clear to Albion fans as its been a very long time since we have had a top manager.
No need for the veiled insult, thanks.
I don't remember Klopp abandoning the Gegenpress at Liverpool, or Guardiola going long ball when he took over at Man City.
Now, VI is an extreme example as he seems to be unwilling to even change formations, but someone like Conte generally keeps his 3-4-3 no matter where he goes. His tactics have been likened to chess pieces, where roles have specifics moves that they can make, and nothing else. Seems to have worked for him
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It is concerning that having decided to commit to a long term project, the club once again finds itself in the midst of a mid-season sacking. The fourth time in five seasons. Not only are we continually limiting the pool of managers who would want to work for us, we put no effort into achieving a long term project other than handing out long term contracts. There was no real system in support of Ismael. Clearly the playing staff are a huge issue and their inability to do anything - they will take advantage of friendly manages, not try for disciplinarians. We need a modern day Megson to shift them all out the club, too many people are here on an easy wage.
Ismael certainly has to take a fair chunk of the blame, things have been getting worse. The insane pressing dropped off, whether that was unsustainable for fitness, teams simply working it out, or players unwilling I don't know, but we never saw the Ismael style of the Sheffield United game again, and that is a shame. Beyond those early games we've been getting worse and worse. Perhaps most damning is it would be difficult to say a single player looked better under Ismael.
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The post I'm quoting is that VI should have changed the way he played to fit the players.
I don't remember Klopp doing that, or Tuchel or Guardiola. Managers these days have their way of playing and it's on the club if his principles didn't match the playing staff. That's why you need long term, joined up thinking so things like that don't happen.
At least we're on the same page on that one Mark
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I feel sad for him to be honest. Poor appointment, he did his best, but his best was never going to be good enough. He was not the problem, Its not the Manager thats behind our current malaise.
As a club we are adrift. He was a symptom of a much bigger issue. Look where we are now compared to a few years ago, when Wolves and Villa were laughing stocks and we were the pride of the West Midlands! We are light years away from the Villa and Wolves now. We are morphing into the Mid table Championship club that the turd Jeremy predicted. Perhaps, that is where we really belong and we have been fighting above our weight for a few years, location wise, geographically and population wise we are about the same level as Derby. So here we are, i think at the final tipping point. Its not a Managerial miracle that will save us, its a total reset that we need, and of course the only real saviour in all this.....loads and loads of cash.
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A good manager would have come into the club and looked at the players and designed a formation that suits the existing players and their strenghts. What he did was come in and just try to crowbar players into his system. He gave himslef no chance at all of succeeding.
Awful manager and so glad he is gone and wont be coming back!!
That is what 'good managers' would call letting the monkeys run the zoo. What happens if as in our case the existing monkeys have no strengths to speak of. The formation VI used was intended to enable what ought to be the basic attributes of fitness and willingness to work, to fill in for the lack of ability. He just underestimated how weak the willingness to work for the team was. He has gone so long live the next one.
As a club WBA also underestimated how toxic those fans, always very critical of their own club anyway, and who expected an easy and instant fix, or wanted another manager, could become; and were surprised at the speed at which their constant readiness to abuse their own team at every opportunity spread amongst the usually more considered fans. We were all angry at some of the performances and results, but some understood that not all the points lost were directly controllable by the manager. A few of the penalties given as they should have been, a few better finishes, a few less successful desperate blocks, and a few less decisive individual errors from certain players, and we would still be well in touch to battle with the present top two.
However no point in looking backward, just need to hope the next appointment works and we as a fanbase can re- unite and support the team at the games. I know there are enough of us who still prefer to do this, as evidenced by the noise levels of support at many of the away games this season, and even at the start of the Milwall away game. I am not sure who I want as our latest appointment, just not the one of the ABC group. (Allardyce, Bruce or Colin.) Prefer a lucky one this time though, because he ain't going to get the cash nor probably the time to build.
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The post I'm quoting is that VI should have changed the way he played to fit the players.
I don't remember Klopp doing that, or Tuchel or Guardiola. Managers these days have their way of playing and it's on the club if his principles didn't match the playing staff. That's why you need long term, joined up thinking so things like that don't happen.
They have the money to change the players though, we don't.
It was clearly a poor fit and the fact that Ken has been demoted reflects that.
The next manager has to fit the squad and, like it or not, Bruce is the stand out candidate in that sense.
The long term plan needs to go on in the background, which Gourlay seems to have recognised, as managers will come and go whether we are successful or not.
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The post I'm quoting is that VI should have changed the way he played to fit the players.
I don't remember Klopp doing that, or Tuchel or Guardiola. Managers these days have their way of playing and it's on the club if his principles didn't match the playing staff. That's why you need long term, joined up thinking so things like that don't happen.
No Klopp and Guardiola in a season and a half spent £500m a piece to get the players that could.
Our manager could have easily taken a few years getting the players he wants but he was an idiot to believe that just because you prefer a certain system that you can't change it if the players you have don't suit it. It's called adaptability and realism at our level
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At least we're on the same page on that one Mark
I would suggest that the best managers would fail trying to shoehorn a style on players incapable of performing in that style. The elite manage elite clubs with bottomless pits of money and bloated squads, If KDB wasn't suited to Guardiolas style, Man city would just buy another KDB that was. Clearly that is never going to happen at WBAFC.
If VI was to succeed he had to mould the existing squad into something that worked and over time transition to his preferred style.
I would also suggest that I have NEVER EVER seen a manager of any ability level who used substitutes in such a rigid, dogmatic way regardless of circumstances.
Do I feel sorry for VI, yes as a man, but not as a football manager, he was / is inept and has reaped the rewards for his ineptitude. hopefully he learns from the experience, i really doubt he will though.
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I would suggest that the best managers would fail trying to shoehorn a style on players incapable of performing in that style. The elite manage elite clubs with bottomless pits of money and bloated squads, If KDB wasn't suited to Guardiolas style, Man city would just buy another KDB that was. Clearly that is never going to happen at WBAFC.
If VI was to succeed he had to mould the existing squad into something that worked and over time transition to his preferred style.
I would also suggest that I have NEVER EVER seen a manager of any ability level who used substitutes in such a rigid, dogmatic way regardless of circumstances.
Do I feel sorry for VI, yes as a man, but not as a football manager, he was / is inept and has reaped the rewards for his ineptitude. hopefully he learns from the experience, i really doubt he will though.
I was referring to Mark's "joined up thinking - longer term planning" comments.
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Wouldn't the sensible manager adapt his tactics to the squad available though?
Fair point. But has Val ever done that? And if not, why did we appoint him? The external message was we are thinking long-term now and this is the guy we want in charge to oversee the rebuild. But internally clearly the expectation was for immediate results - so we shouldn’t have appointed a guy who is rigid to a style that doesn’t suit the squad.
It all comes back to long-term planning or a lack thereof.
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I was referring to Mark's "joined up thinking - longer term planning" comments.
Please accept my humbles for quoting you, my thoughts on the comparing the merits of "elite" managers to VI remain though.
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Fair point. But has Val ever done that? And if not, why did we appoint him? The external message was we are thinking long-term now and this is the guy we want in charge to oversee the rebuild. But internally clearly the expectation was for immediate results - so we shouldn’t have appointed a guy who is rigid to a style that doesn’t suit the squad.
It all comes back to long-term planning or a lack thereof.
Yeah, the more you look at VI's appointment, the more it was just poor. He had no real pedigree other than a season with no fans in grounds for Barnsley and the club lumped everything on him. VI was found out badly.
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Name a top manager who does that? Every top manager has their principles and fits the players to their system
Roy Hodgson
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Welcome aboard the good ship Albion/Titanic mate.
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Come on mate, they may have basic principles, but, every minute, of every game? I have never known a more inflexible manager and his in-game management was the worst I've seen in 40 odd years, bar none.
Flexibility, experience and a bit of nous should be way up the list. Yes it may be short term, but that is where we are as a club. Promotion is still achievable.
He's a one trick pony that got found out. Barnsley and him were an unknown quantity last season and took teams by surprise (added to the empty ground effect all season).
At the start of the season we were scoring from throw ins and corners every game, but that was plan A. It won't sustain a promotion season.
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Roy Hodgson
Doesn't he generally play 442 wherever he goes?
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Doesn't he generally play 442 wherever he goes?
Yes, but he seems flexible and most importantly trusts the players to make decision on the pitch, up to a point That's what it has always looked like to me anyway.
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Yes, but he seems flexible and most importantly trusts the players to make decision on the pitch, up to a point That's what it has always looked like to me anyway.
Is he a good example then of somebody who changes his formation and style to suit the squad?
Hodgson seems to be the opposite- he forces the players to adapt to him via intense coaching.
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Sad it's not worked out for Val. Hard to believe how quickly things turned south after achieving our longest unbeaten start to a season. It looked promising first couple of games but quickly became obvious his stubbornness to adapt, the make-up of our current squad, the attitude of the players and lack of player turnover would make his job impossible.
If Val can learn from his experience at WBA, he will do well, but it's shocking on our clubs part to offer this guy a 4 year deal and not know he'd behave this way. I don't think the fans would of minded him so much if he had of least tried something different; try new players, try new systems...but he did nothing.
Back to the drawing board then!
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Sad it's not worked out for Val. Hard to believe how quickly things turned south after achieving our longest unbeaten start to a season. It looked promising first couple of games but quickly became obvious his stubbornness to adapt, the make-up of our current squad, the attitude of the players and lack of player turnover would make his job impossible.
If Val can learn from his experience at WBA, he will do well, but it's shocking on our clubs part to offer this guy a 4 year deal and not know he'd behave this way. I don't think the fans would of minded him so much if he had of least tried something different; try new players, try new systems...but he did nothing.
Back to the drawing board then!
He may do well at lower league or smallish clubs where he can create a seige mentality but I think VI was found out at Albion. Had no clear plan above hitting long diagonal balls to smallish strikers, he mis-managed players and created little connection with fans - his interviews smacked of someone that was arrogant. I'd be surprised if he is humble enough to learn anything. He showed very little learning in the time he was here. Good riddance!
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Would love to know the details of Val's contract and whether there was a max compensation clause or something like that in the deal.
The Dike injury was disastrous for Val. I honestly don't think we'd have been as woeful against Preston and Millwall if Dike had been in the team and getting up to speed. Things were clearly not good within the camp though and it was hard to see us reviving short term which is what's needed.
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He may do well at lower league or smallish clubs where he can create a seige mentality but I think VI was found out at Albion. Had no clear plan above hitting long diagonal balls to smallish strikers, he mis-managed players and created little connection with fans - his interviews smacked of someone that was arrogant. I'd be surprised if he is humble enough to learn anything. He showed very little learning in the time he was here. Good riddance!
He has just been sacked from one :D
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The poor quality of our squad remains. No manager can turn them into worldbeaters. But they surely can’t actually play any worse than they have been - almost bottom of the form league in a weak Championship over a period of months, not weeks.something that was a nightmare that wasn’t going to end.
I did agree with all you said but to some extent refute the above - they will never be worldbeaters sure but compare them to the rest of the league and there are very few squads much better. If someone can get the old Grady back on a regular basis - and indeed get the best out of all of them - we are in a strong position for the Champs (admittedly not a chance with this lot in the Prem).
Next manager is massive.
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On a lighter note how many of us are going to be looking out for Vals first game at his new club to see if he plays 343 and making subs on 60min..must be worth having a few quid on it
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He has just been sacked from one :D
My albion tinted glasses can't see that 8) we're a huge and famous club in my eyes
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Just didn’t work out good luck in the future Ishmael.
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The hierarchy screwed up in summer they rejected bid for johnstone when money could have brought in dike in summer and now sj on free.
Periera sold well under value also. Long term plan only verbally committed to not sure it was ever really written down.
VI made a rod for own back by continuing to play Livermore when TGH had been involved in best away performance of season at the ricoh. And was generally so inflexible.
Club getting a watford style reputation for managers. Hard to do long term plan if manager isnt properly backed... also he was 5th or 6th choice summer so they eventually rushed it. I was pro his appointment and it grates me hes been sackes but only because of the short termism of club. Unlike the billic sacking i agree with this one
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The hierarchy screwed up in summer they rejected bid for johnstone when money could have brought in dike in summer and now sj on free.
Periera sold well under value also. Long term plan only verbally committed to not sure it was ever really written down.
VI made a rod for own back by continuing to play Livermore when TGH had been involved in best away performance of season at the ricoh. And was generally so inflexible.
Club getting a watford style reputation for managers. Hard to do long term plan if manager isnt properly backed... also he was 5th or 6th choice summer so they eventually rushed it. I was pro his appointment and it grates me hes been sackes but only because of the short termism of club. Unlike the billic sacking i agree with this one
All sensible comments.
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On a lighter note how many of us are going to be looking out for Vals first game at his new club to see if he plays 343 and making subs on 60min..must be worth having a few quid on it
I couldn't care less where he goes, what formation he plays or when he makes his subs, all i know is he won't be doing it at our club anymore!!
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Thank f...something for that!
Onwards and upwards, as they say! Just as long as it's not so upwards it's over the forwards' heads ;D
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I think this sacking was around 5-10 games too late, but better late than never.
Overall I think the board is mostly to blame and has a history of incompetence, but that doesn't take the blame away from Ismael for his poor management.
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I am delighted to see him go as I think his race had been run.
I will support him in that he was flogged a sinking ship. There were promises around rebuilding the club but there was never any structure to support him or the notion of a club rebuild.
His appointment had nothing to do with rebuilding the club. The club wanted a tracksuit manager who could get the best from the current players whilst providing no financial support to support the rebuild they are promised.
Given their lack of support to overhauling the squad, it became a clash of personalities. Without that backing from the board his days were numbered.
Unfortunately the man they trusted was at odds with the playing squad and happened to be one of the most stubborn managers I have seen.
A disgruntled fan base, disgruntled playing squad and our promotion windfall falling beneath our eyes. It was only going to end one way.
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https://barnsleyfc.org.uk/threads/big-val-poll.311758/
Barnsley fan poll for Val
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My albion tinted glasses can't see that 8) we're a huge and famous club in my eyes
Oh how true Darbolina. We certainly used to be. In my heart we still are and always will be. Thanks for reminding me
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In a new article on Athletic just posted about Bruce it says there were various escape clauses inserted into Ismaels contract thankfully. So although VI will get some payoff won't be 4 years worth.
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Toodle pip Valerien.
I'd have loved to have seen you succeed. I'd have loved for you to have shown greater flexibility and a few more from that dressing room the exit door too.
You know which ones, they couldn't really be bothered to implement your instructions. Perhaps all those things are linked in some way. You didn't learn and they wouldn't adapt. Anyway, it's over now.
Onto the next one that I'm sure they'll say they've bought into before deciding they're too good to play for them and us. COYB and all that football supporter type of stuff 8) .
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Source: Express and Star
Meanwhile, former Albion boss Ismael is closing in on a return to management according to reports.
The Frenchman is believed to be the leading candidate to take charge of Besiktas in Turkey.
One of the biggest three clubs in the country, Besiktas currently sit eighth in the Super Lig table following a disappointing campaign.
Former Norwich boss Daniel Farke has also been linked with the Black Eagles. But he is also reportedly interesting Stoke if they part ways with Michael O’Neill.
Ismael, though, is understood to be the leading candidate with reports suggesting he has been offered a contract to take charge.
That contract is for 18 months with Beskitas having the option of a further year in their favour.
It has also been reported the former Bayern Munich man will be paid 750,000 euros a year to manage the Turkish side.
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It’s being reported he has been appointed as manager of of Besiktas and will be introduced to the media tomorrow
Good luck Val
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I couldn't care less where he is and how he does! Just glad he's still not here doing it!
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I couldn't care less where he is and how he does! Just glad he's still not here doing it!
Then why read the thread?
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Seem to remember posts saying WBA would be the high point of Ishmael's managerial career. Beskitas, who are regularly involved in European competitions, would be a clear step up.
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I didn’t want him sacked and still think he will make a good manager.. Don’t think it’s the last time we will see him in England so I expect this thread to surface again in the future.
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Can Ismael bid for Livermore, Bartley and Phillips in 3 months, and give us WBA fans some Turkish delight?
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It’s being reported he has been appointed as manager of of Besiktas and will be introduced to the media tomorrow
Good luck Val
I echo those sentiments.
I think the treatment he received from our fans was an absolute disgrace. It was that bad that the club simply had no choice but to let him go. I don't think I've ever felt so disgusted by our own.
Good luck to the man he deserves better.
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I echo those sentiments.
I think the treatment he received from our fans was an absolute disgrace. It was that bad that the club simply had no choice but to let him go. I don't think I've ever felt so disgusted by our own.
Good luck to the man he deserves better.
The fans were/ are just really frustrated with how the club is run and it spilled into VI at times.
Having said this, I think he was found seriously wanting here. His whole approach to the game was cynical and nowhere near what I'd want to watch regularly. The form was abysmal and he was probably sacked a month too late. He should never have been appointed in the first place really.
I have no animosity towards him at all and wish him well as long as it's away from Albion!
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I don't think I've ever felt so disgusted by our own.
Really? Not when Chris Brunt was struck by a coin?
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Really? Not when Chris Brunt was struck by a coin?
that was one tit, he’s talking of the fanbase as a collective.
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I didn't like his football. As a person he seemed OK.
I just thought it was a waste of money getting rid of him halfway through a season when we had no chance of being promoted or relegated and finding an uninspiring replacement.
We will never know whether Val's initial tactics were fire-fighting and whether he might have evolved them into something more attractive and varied given more time, a fit Dike and another recruitment window.
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It’s official, new Besiktas manager.
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It’s official, new Besiktas manager.
Personally I hope he comes in for Mowatt.
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Personally I hope he comes in for Mowatt.
Let's hope he don't come In for Dike
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Hard not to be fascinated by what he does next. His tactics were just too rigid here but how much of his failure was down to personnel and the inability to bring in players to make it work?
I ultimately want him to fail because I don't want to have another Serge Gnabry (or Borja Valero) situation but I wouldn't be shocked if he was a success.
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how much of his failure was down to personnel and the inability to bring in players to make it work?
Exactly that. He came in in the summer, had only free transfers and loan deals to work with. Set the team up with a defensive solidity we haven't seen for years, we barely ever conceded a proper chance. The two things he needed he didn't have, a right sided forward and a central striker. We were those away from being automatic promotion certainties. Dike came in in January and got injured straight away. How's your luck?
He'd have got us up next season after the summer transfer window and he would've kept us up.
All he needed was time, patience and a realistic chance in a transfer window. What he didn't need was unintelligent, gobby so called fans on social media and inside stadia.
Their loss ultimately, which means OUR loss.
It's set us back. Let's just hope we can find a way forward.
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Hard not to be fascinated by what he does next. His tactics were just too rigid here but how much of his failure was down to personnel and the inability to bring in players to make it work?
I ultimately want him to fail because I don't want to have another Serge Gnabry (or Borja Valero) situation but I wouldn't be shocked if he was a success.
I have no animosity towards him and will follow with interest. I do think his ideas could work with the right players. I was excited at first but it became obvious that his style wasn’t going to work with the players he had at his disposal. The players responded well at first but just didn’t have the legs to play with a highly intense press. If he’d had time and the chance to bring in three or four more players it may well have worked out well. The nature of football these days though is that you don’t get time. At the point he left his position was untenable - he had lost the players and most of us supporters. It would have taken an awful lot of guts for the board to have braved it out and stuck with him.
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It was nothing to do with the player's legs why it went wrong. It was simply because the opposition sussed us out. The high press only works if teams insist on trying to play their way out or dally on the ball. They simply just started to hit it long and playing into the acres of space behind.
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I’m not sure the opposition sussed us out personally. By Preston and Millwall the writing was on the wall and confidence was shot. Until then it was really fine margins and poor finishing and we let ourselves down a lot.
If Hugill (and others) scores a couple of sitters, or Townsend gets a late Pen vs Cardiff, or Dike doesn’t pull up, he could still be here and we may still be in play offs contention.
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Or he could still be here and we could be looking over our shoulder at the bottom of the table. We'll never know.
What we do know is that from the Peterbrough game on we got sussed out. We weren't dominating teams and going "how did we not score" and the opposition were getting some lucky fluke. We were barely in games and the slide down the table shows that. Val was inflexible, he was easy to predict and teams found us out.
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It's a bit of a footballing myth that teams find others out. They haven't found Fulham out yet nor Man City or Liverpool who play exactly the same way week in week out. They didn't find Barnsley out last season either.
Our form started to dip the minute OShea got injured. He really "got" how to play Valball. It isn't all about pressing its also about positioning, about playing the ball into the right areas percentage wise and challenging for second balls. OShea was exceptional at putting the ball into the correct areas. He was replaced initially by Ajayi who wasn't, he couldnt keep the ball in play and that led to us having to tinker with the way we played, eventually playing more football through midfield.
Whatever way you want to play football you need the right players to do it.
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Will be interesting to see how he gets on with the Besiktas supporters. Having witnessed them a couple of times, they are about as crazed and manic as I've ever seen from a set of football fans. But I don't know enough about Turkish culture to imagine how far they might take that.
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It's a bit of a footballing myth that teams find others out. They haven't found Fulham out yet nor Man City or Liverpool who play exactly the same way week in week out. They didn't find Barnsley out last season either.
Our form started to dip the minute OShea got injured. He really "got" how to play Valball. It isn't all about pressing its also about positioning, about playing the ball into the right areas percentage wise and challenging for second balls. OShea was exceptional at putting the ball into the correct areas. He was replaced initially by Ajayi who wasn't, he couldnt keep the ball in play and that led to us having to tinker with the way we played, eventually playing more football through midfield.
Whatever way you want to play football you need the right players to do it.
It's not a myth like that. Saying a team can be found out is not the same as saying ALL teams will be found out. What made us so easy to play against is just common sense. We pressed high, forced the opposition defenders and midfield into making mistakes and broke in numbers. As soon as opposition defenders *stopped* messing around with the ball and just hit it long then we struggled. It was clear as day post Peterbrough as that's what was happening. It was even remarked upon during some of the Sky matches that our opponents were playing a much higher percentage of long balls than in any other games this season. And it make sense right? If their defence haven't got the ball, then they're not going to be losing possession in dangerous areas. And seeing as our defence isn't the best when it comes to being turned and we have mistakes in it. It was a no brainer.
And to compound the "being found out" even further. Val had no response to it. He did the same subs, in the same matches, at the same time, regardless of how the match was going. It was so easy for an opposition manager to play against us.
Blaming it on losing O'Shea seems odd. He's got a 52% passing accuracy - way behind the rest of the defence. The only players worse than O'Shea are Tulloch, Zohore, and Andy Carroll. Think about it - 50% of the time O'Shea gets the ball it results in us giving possession to the opposite team. That's simply unacceptable.
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It's a bit of a footballing myth that teams find others out. They haven't found Fulham out yet nor Man City or Liverpool who play exactly the same way week in week out. They didn't find Barnsley out last season either.
...
I'm not sure it's a myth when you just play the same unvarying tactics week-in, week-out. Pulisball was sussed; teams rammed the penalty area when defending corners and Albion's goals dried up . Even the famous (and boring) long-throw is by now invariably countered.
The teams you mention are able to vary their approach, hit the occasional long ball; move the point of concentration of forces/ switch / overload / overlap. Oh and they have players with immaculate control and accuracy - maybe they merely sussed out that we didn't.
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It's not a myth like that. Saying a team can be found out is not the same as saying ALL teams will be found out. What made us so easy to play against is just common sense. We pressed high, forced the opposition defenders and midfield into making mistakes and broke in numbers. As soon as opposition defenders *stopped* messing around with the ball and just hit it long then we struggled. It was clear as day post Peterbrough as that's what was happening. It was even remarked upon during some of the Sky matches that our opponents were playing a much higher percentage of long balls than in any other games this season. And it make sense right? If their defence haven't got the ball, then they're not going to be losing possession in dangerous areas. And seeing as our defence isn't the best when it comes to being turned and we have mistakes in it. It was a no brainer.
And to compound the "being found out" even further. Val had no response to it. He did the same subs, in the same matches, at the same time, regardless of how the match was going. It was so easy for an opposition manager to play against us.
Blaming it on losing O'Shea seems odd. He's got a 52% passing accuracy - way behind the rest of the defence. The only players worse than O'Shea are Tulloch, Zohore, and Andy Carroll. Think about it - 50% of the time O'Shea gets the ball it results in us giving possession to the opposite team. That's simply unacceptable.
OShea wasn't there to pass the ball he was there to hit areas of the pitch where we could compete and win the second ball. This is where you have to understand the ethos. In Valball passing stats are pretty much irrelevant because that's not what it's about. It wasn't all about OShea we then lost Mowatt as well so we lost the best "Valball defender" then the best "Valball midfielder".
Teams know how Ismael plays they knew it last season when he was at Barnsley. Because someone on Sky says something doesn't make it right. A good example comes from our last game at Bristol City. Andy Johnson on WBA Radio remarked on what a good game Bartley was having when in reality he was absolutely awful. I remember Don Goodman once remarking on Robson-Kanu's pace. Goes to show you should never listen to commentators.
When you don't win games it's easy to say "oh we've been found out". It's something fans say because it's easy like when you lose its "a lack of passion". That's another easy thing to say. It just shows a lack of understanding usually.
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Some with very convenient memories on here. Take a look back at posts on or around 31 January. Some real changes in opinions. Sadly things had reached the stage whereby the club had to do what it ultimately did, sack him.
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Some with very convenient memories on here. Take a look back at posts on or around 31 January. Some real changes in opinions. Sadly things had reached the stage whereby the club had to do what it ultimately did, sack him.
They did yes but that was because the club was being destroyed by the toxicity generated largely by supporters and the plummeting attendances rather than because Valball couldn't work given fair chance.
It got to the stage where for everyone's sake (Val's, Albions the fans, the players), the club had to release Valerien Ismael his position became untenable.
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He wasn’t working and had to go, had he shown any ability to adapt it might have been different but the reality was a one dimensional failing manager, unacceptable and deserved what he got “sackingâ€.
I am a supporter of the long term plan strategically but plans cannot be applied rigidly they need to flex to circumstances, not the fans fault in anyway fans are a reflection of the performances not the creators
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Number of questions need asking here .
1) if he was so poor how come for the majority of his tenure he had this bunch in automatic contention
2) if he is so poor how come he got Barnsley into play offs and this bunch into automatic contention for much of his tenure
3) are we consistently any better since he left
4) if we want a long term plan how is this going to be achievable without a) giving longer term contracts to managers or b) sacking / changing managers every time the team has a bad run and the fans get disgruntled
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1) I'd be surprised if we were in the top 2 for the "majority". We could also ask, "if he was so good, why was his form bottom of the table levels?". But to read into what you're really asking, I'd say "because we started well, got found out, then struggled to actually score goals".
2) He did a good job at Barnsley, maybe he's suited to playing as the underdogs where teams opt to play 'their own way' and his high press can work?
3) I don't rate Bruce, and it's obviously too early too tell if we are "consistantly" better, but I at least can see some sort of method to his substitutions and what he's trying to do on the pitch. No longer is it "take off 2 forwards for 2 other forwards and hope for the best".
4) You need a long term plan with the right manager - you don't just stick to a manager and hope he works out in a few years time. He was clearly taking us backwards and we were showing zero signs of improvement.
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And just to add to the "we were top 2 for so long". It was clear we were slipping when we had a good buffer. Every time someone referenced how poor we were we were met with a string of stats...
"we're top 2, only a point off the top"
"we're still top 2".
"we've scored the most"
"we've scored the least"
"we're 3rd, just behind the top 2"
"we're unbeaten at home"
et, etc, as we slid down the table.
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And just to add to the "we were top 2 for so long". It was clear we were slipping when we had a good buffer. Every time someone referenced how poor we were we were met with a string of stats...
"we're top 2, only a point off the top"
"we're still top 2".
"we've scored the most"
"we've scored the least"
"we're 3rd, just behind the top 2"
"we're unbeaten at home"
et, etc, as we slid down the table.
Don't forget the old favourite
''we have got the best Xg rate''
His 'style' of football made my eyes bleed and I am glad he has gone.
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With him now finding a new employer, presumably that will save us some of the compensation bill.
Besiktas are currently mid-table (8th out of 20) in the Turkish Super League so will be interesting to see whether they progress or not.
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With him now finding a new employer, presumably that will save us some of the compensation bill.
Besiktas are currently mid-table (8th out of 20) in the Turkish Super League so will be interesting to see whether they progress or not.
How do we save anything?
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I wish him no ill but I don't rate him. Of course, time will tell.
Personally I think he was too stubborn to last long in the game and won't do too much in management.
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With him now finding a new employer, presumably that will save us some of the compensation bill.
Besiktas are currently mid-table (8th out of 20) in the Turkish Super League so will be interesting to see whether they progress or not.
I would have thought we get some compensation given he was under contract to us and in a well run club should have been put on gardening leave until someone gave him his next job.
However, as it is we probably paid off the day before he took his new job, knowing that he was about to get the new job.
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With him now finding a new employer, presumably that will save us some of the compensation bill.
Besiktas are currently mid-table (8th out of 20) in the Turkish Super League so will be interesting to see whether they progress or not.
I very much doubt that Alex. Compensation will have been agreed at the time of termination. I can see no grounds for him giving some of it back.
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The whole point of putting him on gardening leave is to get something from the club that next employs him.
It could be that he had a Bilic like term in his contract that his contract be paid up in a certain amount of days should he be sacked, but I doubt it given the difference is stature and bargaining positions of the 2 of them.
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We will probably never know, but it's possible we had a break clause in the contract at the end of this season so have only had to pay up to that point. The other possibility is that we were still paying Ismael and now he has moved on those payments have ended. Who knows.
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Turkish delight as Valerien Ismael job saves West Brom a packet
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/03/30/turkish-delight-as-valerien-ismael-job-saves-west-brom-a-packet/
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Turkish delight as Valerien Ismael job saves West Brom a packet
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/03/30/turkish-delight-as-valerien-ismael-job-saves-west-brom-a-packet/
Happy days!
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Turkish delight as Valerien Ismael job saves West Brom a packet
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/03/30/turkish-delight-as-valerien-ismael-job-saves-west-brom-a-packet/
That is good news. You were right Alex!
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Turkish delight as Valerien Ismael job saves West Brom a packet
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2022/03/30/turkish-delight-as-valerien-ismael-job-saves-west-brom-a-packet/
Anyone going to praise our board for the detail in the contract?
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Off to a decent start with Besiktas who picked up a 1-1 draw away at league leaders Trabzonspor.
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Just to lighten things up, 2nd game in charge and 4-1 victory home to 6th placed Alanyspor. Maybe doesn't need Dike!
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Off to a decent start with Besiktas who picked up a 1-1 draw away at league leaders Trabzonspor.
We were unbeaten in the first 10 games. remember?
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Got shut out in his 3rd game in charge yesterday. Local journos asking what solution will he bring when teams play Besiktas and just shut up shop.
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Got shut out in his 3rd game in charge yesterday. Local journos asking what solution will he bring when teams play Besiktas and just shut up shop.
Looking at the stats - 69% possession and 14 shots. Sounds familiar. I guess you need a special player or two to play that way.
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Looking at the stats - 69% possession and 14 shots. Sounds familiar. I guess you need a special player or two to play that way.
Val certainly needs better players no matter how good his squad is.
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I think he is too stubborn and arrogant in his system. He thinks that it should work, like it's a simulation rather than a game played by humans. Though if he goes on to bigger and better things, fair play to him. Though I think he needs to adapt.
Then again he might just be a continental Pulis.
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Rumour is he is signing Jed Wallace from Millwall on a free.
Makes you think if he wanted him for us but was already stuck with what we had in Jan.
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we should have seen the season out with him, we have worse now
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Rumour is he is signing Jed Wallace from Millwall on a free.
Makes you think if he wanted him for us but was already stuck with what we had in Jan.
Jed Wallace is just the sort of player we need. Runs with the ball, creative, sets up chances. I wonder if a move was blocked by the club or whether Wallace didn't fancy it?
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Besiktas fans had enough already, calling for Val's head. Lost 3-0 at home tonight. Couple of subs in the 62nd minute and no goals scored. Deja vu
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Besiktas fans had enough already, calling for Val's head. Lost 3-0 at home tonight. Couple of subs in the 62nd minute and no goals scored. Deja vu
Yeah, but what was their Xg though ;D ?
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Yeah, but what was their Xg though ;D ?
;D
I didn't want to go there. By the sounds of it they have given him a decent contract as some Besiktas fans on Twitter are saying pay him off no matter what it costs before he ruins the club.
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;D
I didn't want to go there. By the sounds of it they have given him a decent contract as some Besiktas fans on Twitter are saying pay him off no matter what it costs before he ruins the club.
Sounds like there fans are even more fickle than some of ours, it's his first defeat since he took over.
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Sounds like there fans are even more fickle than some of ours, it's his first defeat since he took over.
Think they have spotted the issues repeating themselves again. Not won many either to be fair.
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9 clubs already and he's only 46. :o
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9 clubs already and he's only 46. :o
As someone previously said he was perfect for Barnsley and vice versa
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As this hasn’t been updated, you can guess that he won his last game. 3-2 with 3 penalties between them (Besiktas got 2) and a player sent off.
So 5 games in he has 2 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss, not the most inspiring for what Besiktas SHOULD be doing but better than what they were. Has to overturn a 6 point gap in 3 games to reach Europe… tall order.
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He seems to be suited to an underdog manager type of role. Will be interesting to see what happens
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Fans starting to get restless at Besiktas
YAKUP tweeted
Valerien ismael ile Beşiktaş başarılı olamaz.
Translated
Besiktas cannot be successful with Valerien ismael.
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Fans starting to get restless at Besiktas
YAKUP tweeted
Valerien ismael ile Beşiktaş başarılı olamaz.
Translated
Besiktas cannot be successful with Valerien ismael.
They haven't been happy for a while now.
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Started well, top of the league after 4 games
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Started well, top of the league after 4 games
Someone on Twitter said he's playing a new formation now. Not checked it myself.
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Started well, top of the league after 4 games
Where are they placed in the XG League though..........
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Started well, top of the league after 4 games
From memory so were we last year.....
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I think with the right players he could be very successful, the football is brutal but if you give him players who can press and a decent finisher he'll do well.
Problem he had with us is a team largely woefully unsuited to playing pressing football (although they managed it well for a few games) and a complete absence of any striking ability. Give him a half decent striker instead of Hugill and I don't think it'd have ended like it did.
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From memory so were we last year.....
Yes, if his style is the same then it's simply unsustainable for a full season.
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Won again today. Besiktas top of the Turkish League.
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Been there done that got the tee shirt haven't we?
Question is, for how long?
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Someone on Twitter said he's playing a new formation now. Not checked it myself.
according to sofascore he's playing either 4-2-3-1 (3 times) or 4-1-4-1 (twice).
https://www.sofascore.com/team/football/besiktas-jk/3050
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according to sofascore he's playing either 4-2-3-1 (3 times) or 4-1-4-1 (twice).
https://www.sofascore.com/team/football/besiktas-jk/3050
Nice to see some flexibility, it's all we asked for.
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Nice to see some flexibility, it's all we asked for.
I know, his inflexibility led to his downfall (as well as the players downing tools)
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I know, his inflexibility led to his downfall (as well as the players downing tools)
I wanted him out quicker than it took but only because he refused to change, i said at the time if he changes things he can make it work still.
The players should not have downed tools but everyone could see the club was just collectively banging it's head against a brick wall.
Looks like he has learnt a valuable lesson which is good, i don't wish him harm at all.
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krem KONUR
@Ekremkonur
🚨Besiktas manager Valérien Ismaël could be sacked.
Whats going on here? They are 5th
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It’s probably a rerun of our season last year, after a promising start, their fans eyes have started to bleed as well and realisation has hit them.....
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It’s probably a rerun of our season last year, after a promising start, their fans eyes have started to bleed as well and realisation has hit them.....
That happened after a few games and then he changed tactics and getting results a while back.
Maybe they expect higher than 5th? I don't know, i don't follow them
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That happened after a few games and then he changed tactics and getting results a while back.
Maybe they expect higher than 5th? I don't know, i don't follow them
I certainly think Besiktas expect to be higher than 5th...
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I certainly think Besiktas expect to be higher than 5th...
That's fair then. I guess they expect 3rd or whatever to get in euro tournaments.
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If he is removed, he’s making a tidy living out of being sacked ;D
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If he is removed, he’s making a tidy living out of being sacked ;D
The next Steve Bruce ;D
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The next Steve Bruce ;D
I imagine Besiktas appointing him in the first place probably saved us a fortune in compensation. Sadly, no one else will be daft enough to appoint Bruce and save us paying up the rest of his contract
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I imagine Besiktas appointing him in the first place probably saved us a fortune in compensation. Sadly, no one else will be daft enough to appoint Bruce and save us paying up the rest of his contract
I believe Besiktas hiring VI meant we only ended up paying about 250k to get rid of him in the end.
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Former West Brom boss Valerien Ismael 'parts ways' with Besiktas after shock defeat
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Former West Brom boss Valerien Ismael 'parts ways' with Besiktas after shock defeat
Lost to a club just above the relegation zone, the Turks are not known for their patience!
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The next Steve Bruce ;D
Like a prequel …. The empire …achieves a nil nil draw.
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A theme emerging for Val. His style might not be suited to sides who expect to win and might be better for clubs with low expectations.
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A theme emerging for Val. His style might not be suited to sides who expect to win and might be better for clubs with low expectations.
Said that while he was here, he's good for a 'plucky underdog' type team
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The fans seem happy to see him go. Talking about being grateful that the gods they have prayed to have listened and got.rid of him ;D
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Said that while he was here, he's good for a 'plucky underdog' type team
Sounds perfect for us now then.
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Sounds perfect for us now then.
I'd probably agree
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Video of Val's leaving do 8)
https://twitter.com/BjkBey1903/status/1584639766582415360
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Video of Val's leaving do 8)
https://twitter.com/BjkBey1903/status/1584639766582415360
Besiktas fans are as lively, fanatical fangroup you'll find at the best of times.
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A bit late to this but thought I'd give my opinion anyway.
Overall, his sacking isn't surprising. His season there was shorter than his time with us but had similarities. After a brilliant start, he started to come undone.
I believe his football isn't sustainable beyond 10 games. This is because it uses too much energy and running which isn't realistic over a full season. Having said this, I actually think it would be perfect as an international manager.
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A bit late to this but thought I'd give my opinion anyway.
Overall, his sacking isn't surprising. His season there was shorter than his time with us but had similarities. After a brilliant start, he started to come undone.
I believe his football isn't sustainable beyond 10 games. This is because it uses too much energy and running which isn't realistic over a full season. Having said this, I actually think it would be perfect as an international manager.
good shout that
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strong rumours he will be cardiffs head coach
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strong rumours he will be cardiffs head coach
Probably would suit him. Seems to be an underdog type manager.
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strong rumours he will be cardiffs head coach
Cardiff have been trying to convert to a more footballing style this season after the Warnock/McCarthy years. They brought in at least 10 new signings in the summer with that in mind including Robinson, Sawyers and Kipre on loan.
It could well happen but I can't see how it fits in with this footballing aim....and I can guess what Robinson and especially Sawyers are thinking at the mention of Ismael.
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I hope this happens and he buys mowatt or at least loans him for the rest season before we free him.
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Jordan Hugill has done an interview where he talks about his spell here briefly and mentions Ismael.
Says felt like he wasn't VI 1st choice which he understands but went to Ismael's office one day to ask why he wasnt playing and Valerian assured him that there will be a time and place for him to play.
Hugill asked when that is and VI responded " when the weather is cold and the pitch is 5hit". 😂😂
Hugill said I lost all confidence from that point on.
Kind of funny but also terrible man management in equal measure.
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Good win for big Val yesterday. Similar stats to when he was here but Watford actually finished their chances. I think he’ll be a great appointment for them, assuming their fans don’t start booing the team off if they’re drawing 0-0 at half time.
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He starts well everywhere, can he keep it up longer than 6 months though at a team that isn't an underdog type team.
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One of the big criticisms of him when he was here was that his teams don't know what to do when they have the ball. From memory I think they had more than 70% possession yesterday and they definitely knew what to do with it. Wondering where Watford have a squad more suited to him and his methods than we had. Time will tell.
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I always felt Ismael's system lives or dies on his front 3. It's responsible for both chance creation and the goals.
It might be Watford have that at the club. They do tend to have decent forward options on loan from Udinese or picked up in the high turn over way they do things.
He did however line up in a 433 yesterday if Google is to be believed. Maybe he has adapted his approach from his rigid 3 man defence/ wing backs / 2 man central midfield / 3 man forward line.
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they had 24 shots in the game with 13 on target.
however i think you need to look at the opposition, QPR are on a massive slide under Ainsworth