Author Topic: Guochuan Lai  (Read 2349383 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

skyclad99

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3848
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6750 on: January 14, 2021, 03:31:32 PM »
He was wrong but we only know in hindsight, unless you are saying he sold it to Lai on purpose to do us over which I can’t see.

Or are you saying he should have maybe taken £50m less money and sold to someone else? Like I said I my post before it’s easy to tell everyone else what to do with their money.

No I am not saying that Lee, what he did do was sell it to the first person who came along with the cash... regardless.

Of course he is going to say meally mouthed rubbish about Lai and he 'believed he was the right man to take the club forward'. Whereas in fact he probably didn't give a damn what happened to us.

As a fan what we all want is for the Albion to be competitive, to be in the top half of the Premier League and giving the top 6 a good game. We would like a really good cup run or two, and we want to see some decent football in all of that. Personally I would like us to be where Everton [for example] are. That to me is progress.

We have none of that, and no realistic likelihood of it for the forseeable future, and that would have been the case under Peace or Lai.

My beef is the way Peace shoehorned his way into the position, the forced introduction of share consolidation scheme, and the loan he took out of £3.7m, and how he managed to 'pass it on'. It just stinks to me and I cannot believe some want him back.   
MAGA!

baggiejohn

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4635
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6751 on: January 14, 2021, 03:37:18 PM »
It's interesting that some contributors to this thread have described Lai as a "mug".

In my experience, someone who has grown & developed a business into a multi-million dollar enterprise is far from being a mug.

At the time, there were huge opportunities for Lai's business interests to develop, both internally & externally, WBAFC was one of them.

So, let's assume Lai isn't a mug, is it then conceivable that he would have handed over £150 million to £200 million for WBAFC without some sort of caveat?

Is it possible that Peace does still have an interest in WBAFC, because it's failure means he doesn't get paid in full.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

gazberg

  • WBA Manager

  • Offline
  • *******

  • 17043
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6752 on: January 14, 2021, 03:42:33 PM »
Clearly he's VERY good at what he's good at. He's also clearly WAY WAY WAY out of his depth in the football world.

skyclad99

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3848
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6753 on: January 14, 2021, 03:44:22 PM »
Clearly he's VERY good at what he's good at. He's also clearly WAY WAY WAY out of his depth in the football world.

He has got a lovely garden though.......:)
MAGA!

gazberg

  • WBA Manager

  • Offline
  • *******

  • 17043
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6754 on: January 14, 2021, 03:45:57 PM »
He has got a lovely garden though.......:)

I've heard the same!

Albion79

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1889
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6755 on: January 14, 2021, 03:48:35 PM »
Although he was said to be a fan i dont suppose Peace would care as much about what happened to the club as much as we do, but i still dont think him selling to Lai was so bad, its what happened since then thats gone wrong but all the initial signs and even the first year were positive from Lai, it was relegation that season that changed things.

Lai probably thought after 8 years established in the premier league with the income and exposure that brings, we were a pretty safe investment, a year later he had lost half his investment, whether he or his advisors knew the consequences financially of relegation from the premier league, we will never know.

As others have said, i would like a long term plan but as fans we have to accept that will also take time and have setbacks and keep sacking managers isnt the way every time there is a bad spell, whoever comes in if / when that plan starts needs support and patience from the club and fans.

Ideally you would get a Bristol City type owner, local wealthy person who wants the best for the club and the area, failing that a Leicester City type foreign ownership, again who just seems to get the club, i am not sure how many of those are kicking about West Bromwich.

I dont think many billionaires will be in for us, you then go to Wolves type owner who at the moment is working for them but something just doesnt seem right about that setup and not sure how long it will last but time will tell. Burnley are trying an alternate route but there approach seems to have the new owners take on a debt to sign younger players and sell which i am pretty sure is what most clubs do anyway, so not sure whats so revolutionary about that but again time will tell.

After that you start getting into consortiums and investors, sometimes that works, others it doesnt, but more than likely thats who will buy us and i think it will be very much business as usual and same sort of running of the club as Peace and Lai.


skyclad99

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3848
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6756 on: January 14, 2021, 03:51:47 PM »
And just as a matter of interest here is a piece about the loan to Jeremy

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7846305/West-Brom-fans-demand-club-open-investigation-3-7million-loan-Jeremy-Peaces-company.html


As I read it we [allegedly] lent his company the money to buy shares and increase his holding from 65 % to 88%. He then sold the shares for 8 times more than he paid for them to Lai, and he never paid us back..
MAGA!

FallOutBoy

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 2685
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6757 on: January 14, 2021, 03:52:10 PM »
It's interesting that some contributors to this thread have described Lai as a "mug".

In my experience, someone who has grown & developed a business into a multi-million dollar enterprise is far from being a mug.

At the time, there were huge opportunities for Lai's business interests to develop, both internally & externally, WBAFC was one of them.

So, let's assume Lai isn't a mug, is it then conceivable that he would have handed over £150 million to £200 million for WBAFC without some sort of caveat?

Is it possible that Peace does still have an interest in WBAFC, because it's failure means he doesn't get paid in full.

I think he probably grew enamoured with 2 ideas, both of which would have courted favour back home at the time:

1/ having his eco-towns linked with an established Premier League name like West Bromwich Albion (and others, he did try to forge more link-ups)

2/ using the expertise in our academy set-up to coach the next generation of Chinese youngsters. They would live at his eco-towns, they would sign contracts with him so that he could profit from them making the grade and moving on, and he would gain political capitol from improving Chinese footballers.

That allowed him to be taken for a mug by Peace; we were never worth what he paid for us, and his grand ideas haven't panned out (the Chinese government has become less focused on developing football) due to our falling stock.

He wants out, but he doesn't want to lose face - he wants what he paid for us, but nobody else values us that highly (and Lai can't put in the money or time required to actually make us worth that). I can see immediate results being a factor in the initial deal, but not four years down the line.

ex coseley kid

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3227
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6758 on: January 14, 2021, 03:56:49 PM »
But currently it is only going one way. He might want to save face by trying to get our 'value' back up, but the longer he is on board this sinking ship the lower his stock falls.

I can't really see a way out.
Head honcho of the Electric Boogie Club, purveyors of (mostly) 70's groove music

gazberg

  • WBA Manager

  • Offline
  • *******

  • 17043
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6759 on: January 14, 2021, 03:58:05 PM »
I believe there was a guaranteed price paid around 160m which was too much to begin with and then other clauses leading upto £200m based on PL status/success etc.

In Lais first full season we bombed out the PL due to awful higher up decisions so it's fair to say there is not much more heading Peaces direction than the initial sum paid which he still made £130m + from.

skyclad99

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3848
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6760 on: January 14, 2021, 04:19:35 PM »
It's interesting that some contributors to this thread have described Lai as a "mug".

In my experience, someone who has grown & developed a business into a multi-million dollar enterprise is far from being a mug.

At the time, there were huge opportunities for Lai's business interests to develop, both internally & externally, WBAFC was one of them.

So, let's assume Lai isn't a mug, is it then conceivable that he would have handed over £150 million to £200 million for WBAFC without some sort of caveat?

Is it possible that Peace does still have an interest in WBAFC, because it's failure means he doesn't get paid in full.

I think you make a fair point John, the only thing I question about Lai is the loan.

Peace sells the club to Lai and says 'oh by the way a couple of years ago I borrowed £3.7m from the club to buy more shares [allegedy]. I am selling them to you at 8x what I paid for them. Do you fancy paying that off for me too?'

OK :)

That does not sound smart to me.

MAGA!

johnny Cash

  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 6772
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6761 on: January 14, 2021, 04:42:43 PM »
I may be looking at this naively but not sure what Peace did wrong selling to Lai?

As a fan i think Peace made a number of mistakes from not backing managers to some iffy managerial appointments but not sure the sale to Lai was one of them.

At the time we were an established premier league club, we had a manager in charge in Pulis who although played shocking football at that time was as safe a bet as there was to guarentee premier league football.

He sold to a consortium who as far as i am aware brought us outright for between £170m - £200m, they didnt borrow against the club or take loans out to complete the deal, they paid the money no problem and at a time when the chinese, a huge superpower in the world were trying to get into football.

At that point of sale Peace was rumoured to be an advisor i think, but Lai was the decision maker.

He came in and said business as normal, they didnt say we would go crazy, but what they did do inline with the fact we were an established premier league club was broke our transfer record when signing Burke and also for the first time in our history starting paying players over £100k a week (Krychowiak, Sturridge) and many of us said it was the best squad in our lifetime, me included.

He appointed a supposed steady eddie in John Williams to run things, he then replaced Pulis with a Pardew who again had relative success at clubs similar to us like West Ham, Newcastle and Palace, it wasnt some random unknown mate of mate from China, of course there was probably better options than Pardew but he was an experienced mananger.

However it turned out, it didnt work out with Pardew, the team under performed and John Williams was a disaster, but that is all after Peace left, hindsight is a wonderful thing but all those things listed above seemed pretty safe sensible decisions.

Since then we got relegated, cut our cloth and got promoted again, as i have said i would prefer a long term plan but Lai wants out but not sure three years later Peace can be blamed for that.

Peace is a businessman, if somebody offered me the chance to put little money into a business and make £170m profit, i would say yes! As fans we didnt really suffer for him to be a success, i know Paul Thompson did great things and Peace carried it on, under him we were promoted to the top flight for the first time in my 30 years of going, we became an established topflight club and built a top academy, new training ground and have very nice facilities.

Things could of been different, on the pitch maybe we should of had more ambitious managers who targeted cups, some wanted the Halford extended, i have no doubt there are probably some staff who dont speak highly of him, all things that happen under multi million pound businesses.

There are probably people on here who know more than me but as an everyday fan, i am not sure Peace did much wrong selling to Lai, the appointments after that were where it went wrong but they were all pretty experienced established appointments that just didnt work out.


This is absolutely bang on.

Lai said he would come in and it would be business as usual. Lai came in and tried to have us continue with business as usual. It hasnt worked, but how do you blame Peace for that.

"Peace sold to the first person who offered the money"

Why wouldnt he sell to the first credible person? The fact that it was credible probably put them well ahead of 20 others who made tentative enquiries.

Whether he was the first (do we know?) or not, if the first person who offers the money also sets out what he is going to do, which coincidentally is business as usual and try to build over time, then why wouldn't he sell?

Peace was in it for himself, I agree. However that doesn't mean he stitched us up either. Those who wanted Peace to do a deal at half the price with commitment to spend £100m on the team are living in a fantasy land.
Even if someone had promised it, I'm not sure how legally binding that sort of agreement would be. 



tommcneill

  • Global Moderator
  • WBA Manager

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 14284
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6762 on: January 14, 2021, 04:48:33 PM »
No I am not saying that Lee, what he did do was sell it to the first person who came along with the cash... regardless.

Of course he is going to say meally mouthed rubbish about Lai and he 'believed he was the right man to take the club forward'. Whereas in fact he probably didn't give a damn what happened to us.

As a fan what we all want is for the Albion to be competitive, to be in the top half of the Premier League and giving the top 6 a good game. We would like a really good cup run or two, and we want to see some decent football in all of that. Personally I would like us to be where Everton [for example] are. That to me is progress.

We have none of that, and no realistic likelihood of it for the forseeable future, and that would have been the case under Peace or Lai.

My beef is the way Peace shoehorned his way into the position, the forced introduction of share consolidation scheme, and the loan he took out of £3.7m, and how he managed to 'pass it on'. It just stinks to me and I cannot believe some want him back.   

Where is the proof that it was sold to the first person who came along?

Dexy : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : OldburyWBA
Adder : Hull Baggie : lewisant : Political Cake : tommcneill

its not just the winning thats important...its rubbing the losers face in it after that counts

gazberg

  • WBA Manager

  • Offline
  • *******

  • 17043
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6763 on: January 14, 2021, 04:48:56 PM »
Peace did nothing wrong legally of course I don't think anyones remotely suggested that. It's also not true that Peace was Albion through and through and acted in the club's best interests.

johnny Cash

  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 6772
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6764 on: January 14, 2021, 04:55:28 PM »
Peace did nothing wrong legally of course I don't think anyones remotely suggested that. It's also not true that Peace was Albion through and through and acted in the club's best interests.

Out of curiousity, what we he have done if he was acting in the clubs best interests?


baggiejohn

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4635
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6765 on: January 14, 2021, 05:00:37 PM »
And just as a matter of interest here is a piece about the loan to Jeremy

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7846305/West-Brom-fans-demand-club-open-investigation-3-7million-loan-Jeremy-Peaces-company.html


As I read it we [allegedly] lent his company the money to buy shares and increase his holding from 65 % to 88%. He then sold the shares for 8 times more than he paid for them to Lai, and he never paid us back..


Just trawled through the accounts on companies house website, back to accounts for year to June 2016, before the sale.

In the accounts to June 2016, (season 2015/16) there are entries where the club has borrowed from & owed money to the parent company, both more than £3.7 million.

I believe it's likely that Peace used some of the value of his personal shares as a surety against loans to increase his shareholding, but that £3.7 million doesn't appear specifically until the accounts for season 2016/17.

I believe it's more likely be a loan to pay the team of accountants, lawyers & translators from both sides who brokered the deal.

If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

skyclad99

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3848
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6766 on: January 14, 2021, 05:00:47 PM »
Where is the proof that it was sold to the first person who came along?

Where is the proof that he didn't?

From memory Tom there were a couple of interested parties, and it is thought that Fosun was one of them. There is an assumption here that any other interested parties may or may not have made offers that were deemed too low or complex in their structuring. Whereas Lai agreed to a figure between £150m to £200m [according to who you believe], and that offer was accepted.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 05:06:04 PM by skyclad99 »
MAGA!

leeiswba

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3120
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6767 on: January 14, 2021, 05:08:26 PM »
Where is the proof that he didn't?

From memory Tom there were a couple of interested parties, and it is thought that Fosun was one of them. There is an assumption here that any other interested parties may or may not have made offers that were deemed too low or complex in their structuring. Whereas Lai agreed to a figure between £150m to £200m [according to who you believe], and that offer was accepted.

And who wouldn’t? Would you sell your house to someone who is offering 50k less than another bloke?

gazberg

  • WBA Manager

  • Offline
  • *******

  • 17043
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6768 on: January 14, 2021, 05:11:09 PM »
Out of curiousity, what we he have done if he was acting in the clubs best interests?

For me sold to someone who had an interest and willingness to be hands on. Peace didn't slowly create a nice juicy profit by being hands off. He was all over everything and rightly so. It was his investment. He didn't have to pump large sums in so he had to squeeze value from every penny to make us work. Lai walked in and switched off. Then decided to pay men to look after his investment for him because he didn't have an idea. Sadly he picked a bunch of less than talented individuals and has done since imo.

He also could have sold to another group who offered similar values but say 120m to Peace and 40m Ito the club rather than 160m to Peace as an example. None of us have the concrete figures obviously.. it was widely reported such a group existed and offered the above but he declined as he would be 40m worse off. He'd only be looking at making 90-100m from us.

People are frustrated that he said he had the club's best interests at heart when it was clear he couldn't care less as long as he maximised every single last penny he could from WBA. Nothing wrong with that just don't lie about it.

Everyone else will have different views of course. These are just mine.

WorcsWBA

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 5486
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6769 on: January 14, 2021, 05:13:32 PM »
And who wouldn’t? Would you sell your house to someone who is offering 50k less than another bloke?
A football club, and everything that comes with it (e.g. fans), isn't really comparable to a house is it?

skyclad99

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3848
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6770 on: January 14, 2021, 05:13:56 PM »
Peace did nothing wrong legally of course I don't think anyones remotely suggested that. It's also not true that Peace was Albion through and through and acted in the club's best interests.

Well put Gazberg.

I know I have been vocal about this issue today so I am going to shut up. Peace did nothing wrong selling to Lai, and had the Chinese Government not put sanctions on the movement of money we may [just may] be in a different position. My issue is the way Peace engineered himself into the position of selling us for a massive personal profit, but at the end of the day we are a business and it was a business deal.

I just struggle with the concept that some actually want him back, thats all.
MAGA!

leeiswba

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3120
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6771 on: January 14, 2021, 05:14:14 PM »
A football club, and everything that comes with it (e.g. fans), isn't really comparable to a house is it?

For us it’s not, for businessmen it is.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 05:16:02 PM by leeiswba »

johnny Cash

  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 6772
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6772 on: January 14, 2021, 05:23:58 PM »
Where is the proof that he didn't?

From memory Tom there were a couple of interested parties, and it is thought that Fosun was one of them. There is an assumption here that any other interested parties may or may not have made offers that were deemed too low or complex in their structuring. Whereas Lai agreed to a figure between £150m to £200m [according to who you believe], and that offer was accepted.

Forsun get mentioned, but they went on to buy a club for a (rumored £45m) so there is nothing to suggest they were in the market at £150m plus.

In fact, how many clubs have been sold in the last four and a half years between £120m and £200m?   




SmethDan

  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 8547
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6773 on: January 14, 2021, 05:41:04 PM »
One thing I've never been able to understand. JP felt he'd taken the club as far as he could and recognised the need for extra revenue and a fresh approach. The football landscape and it's dynamics were changing, he recognised and acknowledged this. So how was a takeover in a changing landscape ever going to work with more of the same that had gone before?
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
If you don't know how to use them, they will never be enough.
Oh, and always remember to defecate on those Vile chaps in claret and spew.

Albion79

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1889
Re: Guochuan Lai
« Reply #6774 on: January 14, 2021, 05:50:40 PM »
Overall i like the job Peace did but i wouldnt want him back.

Peace built a successful club upto almost its full potential under his leadership guidelines, i am not sure what his motivation would be to get involved now, He always had an end game to sell Albion and as any businessman would do, he got the best price.

The first summer Lai was in he did try and push us on with the record transfer fee, highest wages, etc but it backfired with bad appointments in hindsight.

The only way i imagine Peace would get involved would be if we hit rock bottom and he could almost start the project again but i just doubt he would have the enthusiasm, commitment or willingness to do it all again 20 years later when he doesnt need too.