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Offline koren

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1250 on: July 05, 2019, 02:41:11 PM »
Every time we lose a kid out of the academy, the call is to close it down. We shouldn't do that.

What we need to do is convince the kids that there is a path to the first team at our place. If we did that, they might work harder, and be less likely to leave.

That said, the system is broken, so we're losing players to Liverpool, Chelsea, etc., for peanuts.

We don't need to scrap our academy; we need to campaign for an overhaul of the system.
Agree. Southampton and Crystal Palace have shown that how to run a academy.
They sold Targett and Wan-Bissaka for £15m & £50m respectively.
Just give more chances to the youngsters in first team, the club may receive good offer for them after that.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 02:45:25 PM by koren »
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Offline divinewind

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1251 on: July 05, 2019, 02:41:58 PM »
I am no lover of Peace, but when Chelsea snatched Izzy Brown off us Peace himself questioned the point of having an academy.
I am not for closing it, i want it to benefit not just the club but the national side as well. OK maybe Barry was always going to be hard to hold onto, but it will be interesting to see where he goes, and i am still not sure our hierarchy do everything they can to hold onto our best prospects.
Also the coach responsible for bringing him on as left the club, was Barry leaving the cause of that or was it the other way round?
I hope Barry goes abroad and doesn't follow the coach to Villa Park.

Offline Adder

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1252 on: July 05, 2019, 02:44:09 PM »
It's the level of compensation that grates most. Should be more like 2 million. The system should come close to properly compensating the club that has produced the player and encourage the buying club to at least think twice about how many 16 year olds they are going to hoover up from the minnow clubs around the world. 

Offline sie_davo

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1253 on: July 05, 2019, 02:49:09 PM »
Did a bit of googling and found this article from 1999... some very familiar names in the piece but this kind of thing will always go on whilst the big hitters have such a massive say in things: https://www.theguardian.com/football/1999/jan/08/newsstory.sport4

(the irony of Big Sam moaning made me chuckle.)

Offline AlbionFan

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1254 on: July 05, 2019, 02:51:27 PM »
Matt Wilson retwitted this from a guy called Jason Kumar, it sounds like a good idea, but will it ever come to fruition? I like the idea personally.

Won’t happen of course but a good way to encourage clubs at all levels to develop young players and academies would be for FIFA to say that for every year the kid is at your club you get 2% of all future transfer fees.
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Offline SmethDan

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1255 on: July 05, 2019, 03:36:04 PM »
Was it the academy or the training ground in general that we cancelled the planned investment for last summer?

It was the training ground and sports science department. The planned investment of £250,000 was put on hold due to relegation. Performance Director Mark Gillett left prior to the announcement and headed to Forest. I've no idea whether the two instances are linked. By the time we redevelop the costs will only have increased and I'd imagine that would be dependent on promotion.

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Offline alex1

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1256 on: July 05, 2019, 04:07:43 PM »
Whatever happens , I'm a strong supporter of keeping the academy. If as estimated it takes £2million a year to run, that's worth far more than the same sum in the transfer market. You could blow that on an Anichebe or an Allan Nyom.
It's ironic that the team has produced some decent quality in recent years, England internationals etc.  If it maintains a good reputation it will attract kids who might have otehrwise been snapped up by Villa or Wolves. But we have to try and increase their market value whilst they are with us, like Southampton have done.
One thing I don't understand is how kids of 15 or 16 are ready to uproot from their homes and even move abroad. When I was 15, don't think my parents would have been too impressed with me abandoning getting any school qualifications. 
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Offline Albion79

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1257 on: July 05, 2019, 04:33:42 PM »
Southampton are a good example but even they have lost their potential 'stars' at 14, 15, 16.

What they do well is when the rest of their players get to 18/19, if they are good enough they are given a proper chance, thats what Albion dont do very well. Wan Bissaka is now 21, but up until a couple of years ago Palace were playing him as a winger and had real doubts if he was going to make it there, he moved to full back and two and half years later is moving for £50m quid.

The big boys buying players at 14, 15, 16 are just buying potential, say Louis Barry goes to PSG, there will be another 4 or 5 like him in that squad, 1 of them will probably make it as a top top player but for the sake of a few million investment now with compensation, wages, etc for 4 or 5 potential stars, the 1 player who does make it as a top player saves them millions and millions down the line, all they are doing is having a safety net, the big clubs sign the top potential youngsters working roughly on the ratio above.

There is a big difference in physicality and mentality between 16 and 18, i think the ratio of lads who get taken on full time scholarships to those making a career out of professional football is still in the single percentage, yet everyone of those lads who are taken on have something or some potential at that age, the two years between 16 and 18 is massive though.

You now and again get a lad who just seems to be almost a man in a boys body and is ready to play first team at 16/17, from the academy games i have seen Morgan Rogers looks the one who could do that.

As said previous what we have to do is when these lads sign professional after their scholarships, is have a clear plan, like Southampton do, if your good enough you get the chance, if your not you go out on loan, instead at Albion we have players like Leko and Field who broke through three seasons ago and are not really much further along in their personal careers as they were then, they havent played regular for us, not been out on loan (Leko had a few months somewhere but thats it) thats what has to change, if you dont think they are good enough, then sell them for our sakes and theirs.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 04:51:12 PM by Albion79 »

Offline Adder

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1258 on: July 05, 2019, 05:05:36 PM »
That's the mystery with Field really. He's had his contract extended fairly generously time-wise twice, does not look out of his depth when he plays yet we don't seem prepared to back him and give him the run of games to develop.

We also have to brace ourselves for the Morgan Rogers contract situation next. Matt Wilson's words were 'will be offered his first pro contract when he turns 17 next month'.
He's an albion fan but we shall see how this goes.

Offline baggie96

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1259 on: July 05, 2019, 05:19:24 PM »
PSG have apparently offered 20k/week over 5 years. That’s insanity  ??? If I was in his position I’d do the same, doubt we’re even offering 1k and the kids family is set up for life with that PSG contract

Offline Baggies

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1260 on: July 05, 2019, 07:50:46 PM »
Can't really blame Barry if he is being offered a guaranteed 3-5 million. Madness not to take it when you could easily stall.

Problem is that we just arent benefitting from the academy in the way that Palace, Norwich and Saints are. We have lost so much talent for peanuts in recent years, while others make £50 milli9n for 1 player.

We have lost Dhanda, Sinclair, Brown and Barry (plus the other kid to Man City) for around 3 million in total. Even losing Tyler Roberts prove we gave a serious issue retaining youth prospects.

Need to provide an environment where players want to stay veey quickly.
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Offline geoff

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1261 on: July 05, 2019, 08:19:21 PM »
The FA need to tighten up the rules on compansation for the club along the lines of a percentage of a future transfer.

Offline Mr Cynical

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1262 on: July 05, 2019, 08:26:01 PM »
So... If it's £12m for Berahino and £4m for Roberts that's £16m the Academy has bought in in 2 years.  There's the reason to keep running it.

I would rather see players coming through to the first team myself.  But from every managers' perspective it will be why will I risk my job (and it's a volitile position) on that kid who may/may not work out and will be inconsistent; when I can play that experienced player who will be more consistent and not get me the sack.

What I doin't think is right is that we have invested 10 years in this kid, longer in Harper, and they are free to walk away and some other club will benefit from them and we will get very little recognition.  Fair enough for players like Roofe, we chose not to offer them a contract, but if we offer them a contract we should be entitled to some of the ongoing transfer revenue.


Offline saml30

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1263 on: July 05, 2019, 08:46:56 PM »
There should be a rule that means any player developed for so long at a club is subject to a % of future transfers up to a certain age. It's the only fair way I can think of doing it. Clubs get paid based on how the player develops. Something along those lines

Personally I don’t think players should be able to move before the age of 18 anyway
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Offline bangkokbaggie

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1264 on: July 05, 2019, 08:54:17 PM »
I do wonder how many of our promising youngsters have been swayed also by the recent history of finding it really difficult to get first team chances under the last few managers.

Offline bradleysrocket

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1265 on: July 05, 2019, 09:15:45 PM »
I do wonder how many of our promising youngsters have been swayed also by the recent history of finding it really difficult to get first team chances under the last few managers.
No idea, but I still expect the majority of calls to be down to money. In the case of Barry in particular, I can’t imagine for the life of me that the route to the first team is more attainable to him at PSG or Barcelona.

Offline cads_ap_albion

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1266 on: July 05, 2019, 09:28:28 PM »
I cannot believe the club is getting criticised.

Barry cannot sign a contract until the year he turns 17. Albion cannot pin him down and make him sign.

In all likelihood, he was going to stay until a few months ago when Barry was superb for England jn a European tournament and everyone wanted him. When Barcelona or PSG knock on the door what would you do.

We are talking astronomical contracts and signing on fees here. Albion simply cannot compete. Nor can our top six in this country - they all wanted him.

If your son could move to one of the top clubs in the world, be set financially for life, sort the family financially for life, what would you say to him?

The criticism of the club and Barry is just ridiculous because we would all do the same.
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Offline jonasyoulegend

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1267 on: July 05, 2019, 09:46:30 PM »
Morgan Rogers is going to Man City, just while we are on the topic of academy. Almost done deal.

Offline Dexy

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1268 on: July 05, 2019, 09:49:35 PM »
Morgan Rogers is going to Man City, just while we are on the topic of academy. Almost done deal.
Where's that from mate ?
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Offline Adder

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1269 on: July 05, 2019, 10:13:19 PM »
Jenkins should be penning a carefully worded letter to the FA and UEFA right now about the levels of compensation being paid here.

Wouldn't be surprised if we've lost Rogers and Soule as well as Barry by the time the season kicks off.
Soule being a bit older is under contract until 2020 so I assume we can get it a bit more for him and negotiate a sell on clause.


Offline jonasyoulegend

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1270 on: July 05, 2019, 11:14:04 PM »
We are getting good money for Rogers, don’t know about the others though

Offline Adder

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1271 on: July 05, 2019, 11:21:01 PM »
We are getting good money for Rogers, don’t know about the others though
What do you class as good money and if he hasn't yet signed his first pro contract why would we get good money for him ?

Offline paulosull

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1272 on: July 05, 2019, 11:52:59 PM »

So... If it's £12m for Berahino and £4m for Roberts that's £16m the Academy has bought in in 2 years.  There's the reason to keep running it.

I would rather see players coming through to the first team myself.  But from every managers' perspective it will be why will I risk my job (and it's a volitile position) on that kid who may/may not work out and will be inconsistent; when I can play that experienced player who will be more consistent and not get me the sack.

What I doin't think is right is that we have invested 10 years in this kid, longer in Harper, and they are free to walk away and some other club will benefit from them and we will get very little recognition.  Fair enough for players like Roofe, we chose not to offer them a contract, but if we offer them a contract we should be entitled to some of the ongoing transfer revenue.
Roberts fee went on sicknotes wages another great bit of business done by the powers rhat be.

Offline paulosull

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1273 on: July 05, 2019, 11:55:12 PM »
Close the f ing thing down waste of time and money

Offline rajesh-wba

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Re: Under 23's/ Academy Thread
« Reply #1274 on: July 06, 2019, 01:31:04 AM »
Morgan Rogers is going to Man City, just while we are on the topic of academy. Almost done deal.

Not saying it means much in this day and age, but Rogers is a WBA fan. He’d have more reason to stay than say another player from the Academy. I’m sure he’s had reported interest before in him. He turns 17 soon so I’m sure we will find out. Genuinely believe Rogers, Soule and Tulloch can have an impact this season. (If management team puts trust in them). We need to start showing a genuine pathway to our elite talent.

As an aside, Chelsea also lost two Academy players to Bayern Munich. So it’s not just WBA who can have players poached. Chelsea even lost Rhian Brewster when he was 14 I believe.

The fact we have Soule and Tulloch on professional contracts helps. But we need to be brave and play them in league games.

Yes we drip fed Edwards, Leko and Field in the Cup games but the acid test for them will be this season. Huge for all three.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 01:35:59 AM by rajesh-wba »