Topic: Penny pinching

[dont ask me to choose luv]

Very true!

Albion have and always will be, whether we like it or not, a stepping stone for managers and players alike to go onto 'so called bigger things'!

We have over the years had some real talent. The days of loyalty have long since gone. Once the evil Luca comes into the equation, which is so prevalent now, they go!

Just look back over 15yrs or so at the players who did well at the Albion then left for what, to win trophies or money? Goodman, Gera, Kamara, Robinson, Hunt to name just a few. Did anyone even know they existed until they performed well at the Albion? Who did they join? Wow real big guns Sunderland, Fulham, Bolton & Charlton. Now these always challenge for honours don't they?

Whatever happens this season who knows? What I do know and glad of it, is the club is run financially well, we have a great youth system and we don't spend millions on average players!

Its been said many times before that in the top domestic league there are only 3 trophies to win. Therefore at maximum there can only 3 clubs win something. Does that mean everyone else is a failure? Of course not.

The Albion will be successful to challenge in the cups, hover a round mid table with a occasional burst higher and have a healthy balance sheet!

We have never in our long history been a Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool, Spurs and now a Chelsea. One league championship comfirms what we are, a Great Family Club who occasionally come up with a special player or team, then after a couple of years sink back to 'our' place in the pecking order.

With so much football on TV & the chance to see players from all over the world, it does appear certain Albion supporters cannot accept what we are and 'moan' about our Chairman not throwing millions on players that no doubt their agent as said is 'great'!. We all want them to do well but when we do ITS BECAUSE WE PUNCH ABOVE OUR WEIGHT, its not through the club getting 'bigger'.
 
1920 champions 1927ish relegated. Won the cup 31 & promotion, lost final 35, then 20 years before we really challenged again. That great mid 50's team lasted about 4 years, we had to wait to the middle to late 60's to win & lose cups, get into europe and hover around 6th every year. Relegation once again! More years pass until on UNTRIED MANAGER!!!! Johnny Giles (RE Steve Clarke) appears and we have a great football team which is developed but we won nothing! That mid 70's team would wipe the floor with most teams and yet, as I said we won nothing! But look at the pleasure they gave us though!
I won't go on and on about what happened after the break up of that team but for us all it was 'the dark age'. A nightmare! 

Be realistic and be true to our roots. We are the Albion and WE ARE UNIQUE! 

I've got to say Turkish I don't always agree with some of your views, although I do find them insightful.

This post however seems to totally sum up West Brom, if people take the time to read through it carefully & understand what you're saying I think many will realise where we stand as a club.

Many of us love the Albion with so much passion, sometimes the facts get in the way of our fantasy but the reality is we are who we are, a medium size club with aspirations, yes you should always try to improve but that should not be to the detriment of the club long term.

Before anyone accuses The Albion of 'penny pinching' just imagine how you would feel if you were a Portsmouth/Rangers etc...fan, the grass, my friends, is not always greener. 

[Greenock Baggie]

Why do people always go to the extreme when the question of spending rears its head ?? Every time anyone mentions it, out comes the stock standard " Leeds/Portsmouth/Sheff wednesday blah blah blah" quotes.

NO ONE IS ASKING WBA TO SPEND MONEY LIKE ITS GOING OUT OF FASHION AND END UP BANKRUPT..........................but for a club the size of WBA to have its record signing ( until Valero a few years ago ) as something like 3 million quid is poultry imho !...........and speaks volumes about lack of ambition. Its almost like " well we've got here, now wtf do we do now !??? "

At the end of the day, we would watch WBA on dartmouth park as long as it meant we had a successful team challenging for honours so training ground etc means nothing. We could have the best training facilities in the northern premier league for all I care !

I'm not saying that spending automatically brings success becasue as we all know.......it doesnt, however, if we are to progress, then usually it means spending more money on transfers and or wages.

If we are as far as JP can take us, then he seriously needs to step aside and the board bring in someone with money, not to take us into bankruptcy but to take us onto that next rung of the ladder from where we are now. Otherwise at the end of tha day, we may as well not have got promoted as with our turnover, we could have remained around the top of the chumps league, never getting promoted, but attracting ( semi ) high crowds.

So lets not have any leeds/portsmouth crap any time anyone dares to mention spending a BIT more money eh !!

[timdon]

Why do people always go to the extreme when the question of spending rears its head ?? Every time anyone mentions it, out comes the stock standard " Leeds/Portsmouth/Sheff wednesday blah blah blah" quotes.

NO ONE IS ASKING WBA TO SPEND MONEY LIKE ITS GOING OUT OF FASHION AND END UP BANKRUPT..........................but for a club the size of WBA to have its record signing ( until Valero a few years ago ) as something like 3 million quid is poultry imho !...........and speaks volumes about lack of ambition. Its almost like " well we've got here, now wtf do we do now !??? "

At the end of the day, we would watch WBA on dartmouth park as long as it meant we had a successful team challenging for honours so training ground etc means nothing. We could have the best training facilities in the northern premier league for all I care !

I'm not saying that spending automatically brings success becasue as we all know.......it doesnt, however, if we are to progress, then usually it means spending more money on transfers and or wages.

If we are as far as JP can take us, then he seriously needs to step aside and the board bring in someone with money, not to take us into bankruptcy but to take us onto that next rung of the ladder from where we are now. Otherwise at the end of tha day, we may as well not have got promoted as with our turnover, we could have remained around the top of the chumps league, never getting promoted, but attracting ( semi ) high crowds.

So lets not have any leeds/portsmouth crap any time anyone dares to mention spending a BIT more money eh !!

I know what you are saying Greenock Baggie - this discussion is always black and white, and there is a middle ground. I think that at the moment we are probably on the highest possible rung of the ladder for our resources to be honest. To move any further would mean JP selling to someone with a lot of money to invest in the side and that might take us into the top 6. But personally I have mixed feelings about the possibility of being taken over by someone who wants to buy us success. Yeh, it would be great to win a cup or two, and play in Europe, but we might lose some of our stability and identity.

[dont ask me to choose luv]

Leeds/Portsmouths situation is not crap, its reality, what has happened to them (amongst many others) is a direct result of mis management, not bad luck or any other excuse.

I'm not against West Brom spending a bit more in an attempt to continue to move forward but at what point does it stop? some fans will never be satisfied, its human nature that the more you get, the more you want.

IF we spent, say, £15 million (which is not a lot in prem terms but a massive outlay for WBA) this summer next year people would want us to spend £20 million & so on & so on, without an investment its just not sustainable for a club our size.

I'm so glad we are not run by some of the high rollers on this site, give me 'frugal' JP looking after my club everyday. 

[leeiswba]

To be fair to JP I think he knows he cant take us any further isnt that why he has us up for sale? The problem is finding someone to buy us, it isnt as easy as just to say 'JP step aside'.

[solo_baggie]

If JP were willing to push the boat this summer and take a loan to finance spending, let's say £20million. But it was loaned money, money that had to be repaid. Then people wanting us to push it would be happy.  Out of those 3 or 4 players we got say 2 worked out well and 2 didn't.

But the next summer we couldn't spend anything like that as we'd be busy repaying the loan.

People would then moan we were being cheap and not trying.

We have to live within our means and if a true bargain become available, even if we need to take a loan, then so be it. But you don't take a loan, then go shopping. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

[Reddiebaggie]

I suspect that RR and   CR are not our manager not because they did not want the job but because they were not offered the War Chest that they wanted. Well so be it we will never be in a position to spend tens of millions on players but we will be solvent. What you have to bear in mind is the clubs above us last season for the most part have global images and we are a long way from that. I want to avoid a constant relegation fight because it is wearing and depressing, I will be happy if we can hover above that zone

[FallOutBoy]

I have been critical of Jeremy Peace and the boards attitudes to money, but I would never accuse them of penny pinching. Our club, for whatever reason, does not generate the funds that others of our size do, and we have to make the most of what we have.

What I am critical of is us wasting money renting an office down in London, on the off chance we need a meeting there. The chairman taking £1m per season out of the club, when similar jobs in other businesses do not pay their chairmen the same. All money that could be used for better players.

[WorcsWBA]

To be fair to JP I think he knows he cant take us any further isnt that why he has us up for sale? The problem is finding someone to buy us, it isnt as easy as just to say 'JP step aside'.

Indeed, because I suspect ultimately any sale conditions wouldn't just be about what's best for the club.

[Reddiebaggie]

I have been critical of Jeremy Peace and the boards attitudes to money, but I would never accuse them of penny pinching. Our club, for whatever reason, does not generate the funds that others of our size do, and we have to make the most of what we have.

What I am critical of is us wasting money renting an office down in London, on the off chance we need a meeting there. The chairman taking £1m per season out of the club, when similar jobs in other businesses do not pay their chairmen the same. All money that could be used for better players.

Here we go again. JP is not only the Chairman he is the majority owner and because of the money and the time he invests he can pay himself whatever he wants. Get used to it

[FallOutBoy]

To be fair to JP I think he knows he cant take us any further isnt that why he has us up for sale? The problem is finding someone to buy us, it isnt as easy as just to say 'JP step aside'.

To be fair, we aren't the best proposition to buy. 3 other largish clubs around us (albeit on their way down), a bad location for extending the ground, and a ****hole of a town which has been getting progressively worse for years. And we can't always fill our ground due, in part, to the economic conditions of the whole West Midlands meaning people cannot afford to go to many games.

[FallOutBoy]

Here we go again. JP is not only the Chairman he is the majority owner and because of the money and the time he invests he can pay himself whatever he wants. Get used to it

Yes, he can. I'm not questioning his right to pay himself exactly what he wants, just whether he should be doing so.

[boinging_along]

If we don't sign Foster and lose any of Olsson, Mulumbu and Pete, then the time for penny pinching is over and I'd expect a serious outlay on replacement players.  One things for sure we won't let them go on the cheap but the problem is replacing them.

For example, Pete cost £2.5m, but we've spent millions more looking for that 10-15 goal a season striker.  We've been through lots of players in search of him.  If Pete left then we've got to replace him with a player as good as he is, but we can't afford to spend the next 3 seasons buying £1-£2m players in the hope we sign someone good enough.

The same goes with the other players.  If we lose one of our top players, we have to be sure we're signing a replacement of similar quality.  If we don't, then I'm afraid we'll be in for a long hard season.

[rubyruby]

If we don't sign Foster and lose any of Olsson, Mulumbu and Pete, then the time for penny pinching is over and I'd expect a serious outlay on replacement players.  One things for sure we won't let them go on the cheap but the problem is replacing them.

For example, Pete cost £2.5m, but we've spent millions more looking for that 10-15 goal a season striker.  We've been through lots of players in search of him.  If Pete left then we've got to replace him with a player as good as he is, but we can't afford to spend the next 3 seasons buying £1-£2m players in the hope we sign someone good enough.

The same goes with the other players.  If we lose one of our top players, we have to be sure we're signing a replacement of similar quality.  If we don't, then I'm afraid we'll be in for a long hard season.

Lot less than that boinging more like 1.5m.............whatever a bargain!!

[kc56wba]

To be fair, we aren't the best proposition to buy. 3 other largish clubs around us (albeit on their way down), a bad location for extending the ground, and a ****hole of a town which has been getting progressively worse for years. And we can't always fill our ground due, in part, to the economic conditions of the whole West Midlands meaning people cannot afford to go to many games.

Well said FallOutBoy. How many clubs have cut the price of season tickets, our club did due to economic conditions. How many of the fans have moaned about that? We are not going to get investment from some Russian Mafia or American Oil Tycoon are we, so FFS learn to live with what we have got, a very good chairman

[baggie82]

Our club, for whatever reason, does not generate the funds that others of our size do

Really? How much does our club generate and how much money do our rivals of a similar size generate? Our income is primarily sky money, then gate receipts, then commercial revenue, it's not hard to figure out.

We have a wage bill of near £50m per season. Our board is wary of spending big on transfer fees and is trying to utalise the money on wages to keep our best players, attract other quality bosmans which seems like a sensible strategy. People go on about Pete costing just £1.5m but lets assume he's now on 40k per week (it might be more), that's £1.92m per year for 4 years : £7.7m so he's real cost is near the £10m mark in total.

We are spending, just on the important bit - player wages.

[Baggie79]

People easily forget our club is only worth around £40m in total, so to spend £20m on players would not be a "pushing the boat out a bit" it would be wagering half of our club on 3 or four players. Would you risk that?

[Baggie66]

I'd have to say best in the league, no other club is run so well with such little capital to start with. Can anybody name a club that has no debt (or is not being bankrolled by a rich chairman) that is better off in terms of league standing, facilities and playing squad.

It can be annoying that we don't go and splash the cash as fans, over the years I have never really seen the benefit until last season. It was pretty hard to ignore the dingles bleeting on about the £7 million pound signing of roger johnson, and us signing Gareth Mcauley on a free... but look how that turned out.

This year will be the same, we wont sign Foster, people will kick off and moan (including me) and we'll probably go and find a keeper on the cheap from somewhere who does the job almost as well. Meanwhile having money to spend on other areas of the squad or stadium expansion.

Newcastle United - debt - Nil

[rubyruby]

How can a £40million pond annual wage bill be penny pinching? Can we rename this thread. Sensible Financial Management

[zippyandbungle]

Newcastle United - debt - Nil

And how big is the stadium, how big are their revenue streams and what is he personal wealth of the chairman.
We need to be realistic with other peoples money and hint what we would do if it was our money on he table
Again it doesn't mean we should not progress but we must do it whilst staying financially sound

[RowleyBaggie2]

All we need to do is sell a player for £35m.

[solo_baggie]

Newcastle United - debt - Nil

It has nil debt due to the MASSIVE losses Mike Ashley was willing to absorb three or four years ago. It was Tens of Millions.

[Baggie66]

It has nil debt due to the MASSIVE losses Mike Ashley was willing to absorb three or four years ago. It was Tens of Millions.

Sorry, but thats irrelevant the question was;
Can anybody name a club that has no debt (or is not being bankrolled by a rich chairman) that is better off in terms of league standing, facilities and playing squad.

Mike Ashley, granted paid off or absorbed the debt however since then, excellent Owner / Chairman, top six in the league, Huge phenomenal stadium which IMO, in the North, is as good as it gets after OT. The playing squad, hey, have a look at what Pardew and his team have done here and Nil debt. However Albion (nearly) always look like beating them (away last year again, I was there)

We are a very well run Club and I appreciate JP however there are others who are doing better than us, Stoke's debt is only £5m, new Stadium, established Premiership side. I hate them but it's a fact.

Can JP take us on, that has to be the question.

[WorcsWBA]

JP is not only the Chairman he is the majority owner and because of the money and the time he invests he can pay himself whatever he wants. Get used to it

I don't particularly want to re-open this debate but, as you mentioned it, hasn't the vast majority of the money that he has "invested" been the Club's money rather than his own?

[smethwickw]

I don't worry about what we are spending as long as it is on the right players. We spent over £20m under Mowbray including £5m on Valero yet still finished bottom. Free Transfers and loans with higher wages is the way to go generally IMO. However there is the odd occasion where we should push the boat out a little though. Foster is a prime example and it will be intersting to see if we are really serious about bringing him here because it will almost certainly break our transfer record. Paying that extra 1-2m for him for example will certainly not send us down the Portsmouth route.