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Author Topic: Steve Clarke  (Read 34587 times)

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Offline standaman

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #275 on: June 10, 2012, 01:24:45 AM »
There is something charmingly English in the belief that a rousing team talk will somehow make the difference between success or failure. If that were the case I have a simple solution hire Brian Blessed as team talk coach and watch us qualify for the champions league. Or perhaps not.

I take issue with those who think it is a terrible appointment and in particular those who think Chris Hughton is way better than Steve Clarke but time will tell. There is no longer any point in the debate the deed is done.

With regard to the selection process, I think from the outset Rangnick was on our radar. Raneiri emerged as a possible candidate shortly after Roy resigned (my understanding his agent approached us rather than the other way round). I think these two were the early front runners and the rest of the process was in essence plan B.

Unfortunately by the time Rangnick's name got out into the media the club were having serious doubts about him signing. Hence the rather half hearted enquiry with regard to Hughton who I do not believe was ever top of our list other than in the eyes of the media.

The rather drawn out process was unfortunate but beyond testing our fan's patience (the test results are in and we don't have any :)) no lasting harm has been done and there would be absolutely no complaints had it resulted in Rangnick being hired.

My final word on this subject is that the appointment makes absolutely no difference to those players who might be considering their futures with the club. Their decision is an economic one pure and simple all talk of trophies ambition or wanting to work with their new coach is public relations bilge and fans are daft if they believe it either way. I say this in the almost certain knowledge that at least one of our core squad members will leave this summer however if they all stay I will not claim it as vindication for Clarke's appointment.
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Offline WorcsWBA

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #276 on: June 10, 2012, 08:10:19 AM »
There is something charmingly English in the belief that a rousing team talk will somehow make the difference between success or failure.

Few could argue that poor, lacklustre first half performances have been transformed into much better second-half performances at many a club down the years. What would you attribute that to?

Offline Adder

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #277 on: June 10, 2012, 08:47:03 AM »
Knowing the right thing to say to players on an individual and team basis is very important.
Sometimes the hair dryer blast or 'Churchillian speach' may be needed but... very often it can be a quiet word in the individual or team ear that is more effective.
The skill of knowing whats needed when, is an important part of effective management and so is the tactical appreciation of the game of course.

Offline wbarenno

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #278 on: June 10, 2012, 09:20:55 AM »
Few could argue that poor, lacklustre first half performances have been transformed into much better second-half performances at many a club down the years. What would you attribute that to?

Yeah id agree ,Half time talks are important. If man utd or real madrid have had a poor first half are you telling me the managers dont make a difference. Players have to be lifted and given a kick up the backside. This is what worries me about clarke he has never had the full responsability to do this. Can he do It is the question?

Also we should remember when we were 3-0 up at half time against west ham and scott parker was credited for the comeback solely on the half time speech he gave

Do people on here really think half time team talks mean nothing or dont happen?

Offline divinewind

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #279 on: June 10, 2012, 09:23:03 AM »
If rollickings worked then Barry Fry would be a top manager.

If i were a player i would take notice of a coach who was more knowledgeable than me,not one that called me names.
Being told you aren't doing the job to expectation is quite different and acceptable.
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Offline smethwickw

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #280 on: June 10, 2012, 09:47:57 AM »
its all right people saying he does not have any experience as a first team coach/manager but if nobody gave him a chance how can he get experience. hopefully people will get behind him and give him a chance.

Whilst I agree with what you say, I sometimes think that maybe starting off at a lower level i.e. Championship is probably best. I don't recall any assistant stepping into the main job at Prem level for the first time being successful. Well Steve McClaren perhaps?

Offline Londonbaggymike

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #281 on: June 10, 2012, 11:20:32 AM »
Few could argue that poor, lacklustre first half performances have been transformed into much better second-half performances at many a club down the years. What would you attribute that to?

The manager identifying what was going wrong and telling the players how to remedy the situation and tactical / personel  changes, rather than rants and "once more unto the breach".

Offline standaman

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #282 on: June 10, 2012, 12:05:36 PM »
Few could argue that poor, lacklustre first half performances have been transformed into much better second-half performances at many a club down the years. What would you attribute that to?

I can think of plenty where teams have had good first halves and terrible second halves and others which have been good start finish and poor start to finish. Often the half time turn around is purely a function of the team under the cosh having an opportunity to re-group and the team that is on top running out of steam or just getting complacent.

Coaching interventions do make a difference but are limited during the course of a game. The key is being able to identify opportunities and threats and make the necessary  tactical adjustments. However the bulk of the impact that a coach can have on any team happens in the run up to the game and no amount of bluster during the game will rescue a flawed game plan or poor preparation. Coaches shouting at players  probably makes very little difference to the outcome (some would argue it is counter productive).

Fans and the media like the Churchillian stuff but in truth it counts for very little compared with an subtle and sometimes hardly noticed tactical change. In truth Sir Alex could probably unplug the hairdryer but what the heck it makes good copy and contributes to the myth of the manager.

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Offline rubyruby

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #283 on: June 10, 2012, 12:47:07 PM »
Im not sure ruby, I think that is a very English view on management. Im starting to look a bit wider than that as the success of English managers in the modern age is, well, non existent. There are currently 6 English managers in the premier league and 3 of them came up with promoted clubs this summer (while another was appointed this week). There are 8 managers from Scotland, Wales and N and S Ireland - despite this being the English league and England having 3 or 4 times the population of those 4 countries combined.

English people put a lot of stock in team talks and man management - while foreigners put more stock in tactics and preparation. I wonder if they know something we dont? As for dealing with the media, I dont think that is a big thing for West Brom. We have barely got a mention since appointing Clarke - the media barely know where the Hawthorns is or what colour kits we play in. From what we kno Clarke is well liked by players who work with him so man management should be fine.

I am more concerned about how well he analyses a football match than how inspirational and Churchillian he is (as an aside, "Churchill spirit" plays a lot in the English thinking for me and explains why we believe so much in powerful half time speeches).

Interesting one Dexy. Personally I dont think there is much difference between a top foreign coach and a top english coach in terms of tactics and preparation. For example how much difference would there be between Mourinho and Hodgson? not much in my view. What sets them apart from run of the mill coaches is their ability to man manage across the entire spectrum or business. Mourinho is known to excel in this area and you could sense that Roy had the inate ability to extract the best out of the both player and team. So I dont think my view is either English or Churchillian. I think it is universal that the principal key to success in sport, business or life for that matter if judged by results is the ability to inspire others by ones own actions or words.
So I go back to my original point that SC has all the tools to do the "job" but can he inspire and motivate those around him to produce when it matters. For me that is the what sets apart a true leader from someone who assists or follows.

Offline rubyruby

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #284 on: June 10, 2012, 12:52:40 PM »
If rollickings worked then Barry Fry would be a top manager.

If i were a player i would take notice of a coach who was more knowledgeable than me,not one that called me names.
Being told you aren't doing the job to expectation is quite different and acceptable.

Neil Warnock is famed for his HT rants. You tube his uncut effort at Shrewsbury in 1995 its bloody brilliant ;D

Offline glosterbaggie

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #285 on: June 10, 2012, 01:22:06 PM »
Another odd one was Phil Brown's half time effort V Man City making them sit on the pitch for the half time "Talk" I cannot remember the result 2-2? :D

Offline standaman

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #286 on: June 10, 2012, 02:22:59 PM »
Neil Warnock is famed for his HT rants. You tube his uncut effort at Shrewsbury in 1995 its bloody brilliant ;D

Not sure what good it did them Huddersfield were top going into the last 5 games that season failed to win any of them and finished 5th okay they did get promotion via the play-offs. If people think that an x-rated pantomime act is leadership then I despair. Any idiot could do what Warnock did in that video and the proof was in the video because there was an idiot doing it. The players hardly looked inspired shell shocked perhaps inspired no.
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Offline oggy68

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #287 on: June 10, 2012, 02:28:29 PM »
last season i was moaning we signed only free transfer championship players.so we can only say in jp we trust as for all the years we have slagged the chairman off look where we are .all we can do is get behind clarke and see where it takes us.thank god we now have a headcoach/manager to sought out who he wants to keep and new signings ,as it looks a rebuilding job with spine of the side wanting to be elsewhere and chasing silverware :o

Offline rubyruby

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #288 on: June 10, 2012, 02:30:42 PM »
Not sure what good it did them Huddersfield were top going into the last 5 games that season failed to win any of them and finished 5th okay they did get promotion via the play-offs. If people think that an x-rated pantomime act is leadership then I despair. Any idiot could do what Warnock did in that video and the proof was in the video because there was an idiot doing it. The players hardly looked inspired shell shocked perhaps inspired no.

That wasnt my point?.............I just said as rants go it was brilliant!

Offline standaman

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #289 on: June 10, 2012, 02:37:08 PM »
That wasnt my point?.............I just said as rants go it was brilliant!

As a rant cannot fault it :)
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Offline stripes

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #290 on: June 10, 2012, 03:03:03 PM »

Offline Baggies

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #291 on: June 10, 2012, 03:23:19 PM »
Lots of good points, of course, but I don't believe we ever stated he was our 'first choice'.
Read the (weasel) words of our statement carefully and you will see what I mean.

We did say he was the outstanding choice though, although I take what you say on board, we havent outright said he was the first choice.
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Offline LiamTheBaggie

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #292 on: June 10, 2012, 03:43:49 PM »
Neil Warnock is famed for his HT rants. You tube his uncut effort at Shrewsbury in 1995 its bloody brilliant ;D

Is that the one which includes the famous line of "you, your in ******* Latvia!"
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Offline Baggies

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #293 on: June 10, 2012, 03:52:43 PM »
The manager identifying what was going wrong and telling the players how to remedy the situation and tactical / personel  changes, rather than rants and "once more unto the breach".

I rest my case your honour.

Man management is an attribute that would be welcome in being a head coach and im sure being a good motivator also helps but it is the IMPORTANCE we place on it in England that is the problem. As seen in this thread, people all feel Clarke will be fine with tactics, analysing our players, analysing opposition and working out what our problems are in matches, but worry that he wont be able to motivate the players and also worry about half time team talks. Apart from the fact it seems impossible to actually know which bits he will be good at and which he wont be good at, I do think this highlights one of the reasons why England are falling behind the rest of the world despite our enthusiasm for the game and our large population.

Standaman made a good point about half time being more about players regrouping. Maybe there was a good talk in the dressing room, but it is an English myth, going back to our times on the battle field and Churchill, that making a good speech and getting everyone fired up is a bigger deal than all of the background preparation and intelligence. For me, in rating a managers attributes, being able to give a good half time team talk is some way down the list for me. Id rather the manager be able to identify what needs to be changed as londonbaggiemike says. Man management may come further up the list but what is man management in the end? Being a good psychologist? Fabio Capello never got on with his players in his career yet he has won everything. It is a good thing to have but again, if place it below analytical skills and football intelligence.

This may sound rude, and apologies if it does, but i think another reason we cling to these things, the press included, is because they are easier concepts for us to understand. We can all identify with Alex Ferguson giving the hair dryer treatment or Harry Redknapp being able to motivate players as it isnt a very deep thinkers subject. Tactical nuances and analysing a performance however are much more complicated however and are harder to make an argument about as none of us know that much about it. We therefore sometimes are drawn towards what is simpler to understand.

It could be worth reading up on the philosophies of the likes of Marcello Bielsa, the Bilbao manager everyone has been waxing lyrical about for the last few months, or Benitez or Wenger. These managers (Bielsa excluded so far) have all done more than any English manager, managing today. You have to question why surely? Why in the modern age are there no English managers? Is it because they have been very slow to adapt to how football managers/coaches should work? Morurinho is somebody people often point to as being the master of mind games, man management etc and yes, he can be good at these things, but do people ignore the fact he surrounded himself with analytical masters like Villa Boas and brought through coaches like Brendon Rogers who again is a football deep thinker? Eventually, I think English coaches will evolve, but I think we as fans and in the media need to think deeper as well and look away from the obvious.
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Offline rubyruby

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #294 on: June 10, 2012, 04:33:39 PM »
I hear what you say Dexy but for me history right up to the present day suggests otherwise. Unless your leader has the communication skills and the ability to inspire individuals and the collective at any "Given Moment" ( a film of the same name about this concept was made starring Al Pacino I seem to remember) then all the planning, analysis, re grouping, tactical talks etc will likely come to nothing. Off course when things are going well professionals will require very little motivating but that is not what we are talking about really. Yes the top coaches surround themselves with top quality people that is a part of what they are good at. Identifying and surrounding themselves with talented people. But this still does not negate the absolute need on occasion to become prickly, brutally honest and yes on occasion heated in order to receive the required response. The vast bulk of us dont find this comes naturally but to born leaders it is probably second nature. It would be interesting to canvass a cross section of the top football coaches over the last 20 years but my guess is they would all to a man say that at times they have had to be both unpopular and even disliked in order to get the job done.

Offline Baggies

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #295 on: June 10, 2012, 04:38:34 PM »
Put simply ruby, do you feel being able to give a half time team talk is the most important attribute a manager should have and if not, where would you rank it (as in, what would you see as a less crucial skill, football intelligence etc).
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Offline rubyruby

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #296 on: June 10, 2012, 04:47:28 PM »
Put simply ruby, do you feel being able to give a half time team talk is the most important attribute a manager should have and if not, where would you rank it (as in, what would you see as a less crucial skill, football intelligence etc).

Absolutely the most important attribute for a leader to have by a mile! The ability to lead and inspire at "Any Given Moment". It is IMO people who possess this quality who more often than not succeed over their contemporaries.

Offline Baggies

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #297 on: June 10, 2012, 05:07:49 PM »
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I just feel that it is the old thinking that has held English coaches back. I feel to many believe that this is the most important aspect to being a head coach/manager while foreigners pay more attention to the finer details, and therefore, hold more top jobs.

I do refer back to my old point though - why are there so few English managers and why do only a few managers go to manage in Europe? Is it because they dont want to move, or is it because there is no demand for them in Europe as their skills - being good talkers, arent valued abroad?

Having a quick look at English managers who manage in Europe, the most successful were Roy Hodgson, Steve Mclaren, and Sir Bobby, 2 deep thinking coaches and 1 training ground coach. None of them knowns for their inspirational half time team talks.

History shows, the European are more enlightened about football than we are.
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Offline Pseudo_Intel

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #298 on: June 11, 2012, 12:14:47 PM »
There a press conference?

Offline addy

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Re: Steve Clarke
« Reply #299 on: June 11, 2012, 12:20:14 PM »
There a press conference?

Next Monday.