Poll

How do you rate our chances of survival under Allardyce?

Better than under Bilic
Worse than under Bilic
About the same

Author Topic: Chances of survival  (Read 31466 times)

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seteefeet

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2020, 09:42:23 AM »
The only way to stay in this league with our budget is 10 behind the ball so what's the point? If Sam, by some miracle, keeps us up, then next season will just be the same, and, by the time we get back into the ground it will be like watching paint dry.
May as well go down and start again.
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2020, 09:59:42 AM »
I missed this response when replying to BA.

This sums the situation up perfectly in my view.

Defending is a collective team effort - we have failed to that adequately pretty much throughout the entirety of Bilic’s tenure.

I look at it another way - if you have.a good passing team and you can occupy opponents in their half then there is no way they can score.

Allardyce is better off getting an accoplished central midfielder with pace who can combine with Gallagher.

We.were completely dominated by AV, 65% possession as the away team and 19 shots on our goal.

If we have a rubbish midfield who cant keep the ball, we'll be under siege from the defence and inevitably concede.  The most important player of the 8 years of Premier League was Mulumbu in my view.

SmethDan

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2020, 10:01:16 AM »
........We are too slow.  We need to play higher up the pitch, not deep. .......

We're too slow currently, this may or may not change in the window. The ball however can move quicker than any player. It's about the players picking the right pass to the right player at the right time. This comes through organisation, solidity and coordination.

If the players are too slow the last thing a slow team does when it has trouble retaining possession is play higher up the pitch, as when possession's lost they're strung out all over the place as exampled by our time under Pepe Mel. Lovely bloke Pepe but he didn't have a clue how to utilise the squad at his disposal.

A slow team needs it's base to sit deeper rather than higher to cover up,  stay solid in open play, picking it's punches on the counter with what little pace it has. It moves forward for set pieces and drops back again. It's only boring if the ball is surrendered cheaply and punted aimlessly. Here's hoping we don't resort/revert to the last two options.
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tommcneill

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #78 on: December 23, 2020, 10:22:01 AM »
The most important player of the 8 years of Premier League was Mulumbu in my view.

Absolutely correct. He was vital to us during those years. Exactly what we are missing now
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2020, 10:28:14 AM »
I think you have just stated the problem ,those players are exactly what we need at this point, but alas fans want Messi and Ronald types.

What fans want is irrelevant, what the club has is relevant and no-one will mould the current squad into a solid defensive unit, the capability is not there.

Lurching from Defense (Pulis) to shambles (Pardew) to mixed (Moore / Shan) to open (Bilic to defensive (allardyce) is nothing short of idiotic
You may argue with my representation of tactics / style / manager) but the principle is what matters and its ridiculuous to think that this can be a successful way of operating.
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SmethDan

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2020, 10:40:23 AM »
Absolutely correct. He was vital to us during those years. Exactly what we are missing now

Gallagher could fulfill the Mulumbu role.
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
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mulliganstired

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2020, 10:45:39 AM »
Gallagher could fulfill the Mulumbu role.
I think so, he would need to maybe sacrifice the forward runs a bit, which is a shame as he obviously has an eye for a goal

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2020, 10:50:46 AM »
They are very slim but until the fat lady sings it aye over. I have just a niggling feeling that ' Sam the Man' may just save us, it wont be pretty but if it means that someone comes in and buys Mr Li (or whatever his name is ) out I will take it.
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2020, 11:05:19 AM »
I think so, he would need to maybe sacrifice the forward runs a bit, which is a shame as he obviously has an eye for a goal
This is why Mulumbu great as he was for us needed Yacob to be at his most effective. 
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mulliganstired

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #84 on: December 23, 2020, 11:06:16 AM »
They are very slim but until the fat lady sings it aye over. I have just a niggling feeling that ' Sam the Man' may just save us, it wont be pretty but if it means that someone comes in and buys Mr Li (or whatever his name is ) out I will take it.
I'm hoping Lai will panic and sell us now for as much as we can get to someone who has a clue about football and will invest over a few years of possible yoyoing.

SmethDan

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #85 on: December 23, 2020, 11:20:36 AM »
This is why Mulumbu great as he was for us needed Yacob to be at his most effective.

Exactly. Yacob was the screen and Mulumbu was the ratter who helped break play and got forward when he could between mopping up Yacob's scraps. Couldn't abide him being on the edge of our own box for long as the free kick count went up. All the heart and running in the world.
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
If you don't know how to use them, they will never be enough.
Oh, and always remember to defecate on those Vile chaps in claret and spew.

glosterbaggie

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #86 on: December 23, 2020, 11:34:17 AM »
Exactly. Yacob was the screen and Mulumbu was the ratter who helped break play and got forward when he could between mopping up Yacob's scraps. Couldn't abide him being on the edge of our own box for long as the free kick count went up. All the heart and running in the world.
How well off we were eh! No big girls blouses no dramas just to solid pro's who got on with it!
Now of course as Gallagher goes romping off the back is left to a bloke likely to be sent off or another who is powder puff!
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alex1

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #87 on: December 23, 2020, 03:45:29 PM »
We're too slow currently, this may or may not change in the window. The ball however can move quicker than any player. It's about the players picking the right pass to the right player at the right time. This comes through organisation, solidity and coordination.

If the players are too slow the last thing a slow team does when it has trouble retaining possession is play higher up the pitch, as when possession's lost they're strung out all over the place as exampled by our time under Pepe Mel. Lovely bloke Pepe but he didn't have a clue how to utilise the squad at his disposal.

A slow team needs it's base to sit deeper rather than higher to cover up,  stay solid in open play, picking it's punches on the counter with what little pace it has. It moves forward for set pieces and drops back again. It's only boring if the ball is surrendered cheaply and punted aimlessly. Here's hoping we don't resort/revert to the last two options.
Interesting post. I can see what you're getting at when you say playing deeper means you don't need to get back so far when a move breaks down. In a way though, that's what we were doing v Villa. In so doing you allow the other team to dominate midfield. Villa players had all the time they wanted on the ball, whereas when we tried to get forward we were constantly outnumbered and so lost possession almost instantly.
This is partly down to how skilful the players are at passing the ball around quickly, but it is also having the numbers.

Having slow defenders, as is now the case with Ivanovic, and previously with McCauley,
you always have a disadvantage getting up and down the pitch. In the ideal world I would only pick fast defenders.
But we also need to be faster passing the ball around and that only comes with lots of practice. Alot of our moves fizzle out because we give the opposition time to get back into a formation.
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SmethDan

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #88 on: December 23, 2020, 05:03:19 PM »
Interesting post. I can see what you're getting at when you say playing deeper means you don't need to get back so far when a move breaks down. In a way though, that's what we were doing v Villa. In so doing you allow the other team to dominate midfield. Villa players had all the time they wanted on the ball, whereas when we tried to get forward we were constantly outnumbered and so lost possession almost instantly.
This is partly down to how skilful the players are at passing the ball around quickly, but it is also having the numbers.

Having slow defenders, as is now the case with Ivanovic, and previously with McCauley,
you always have a disadvantage getting up and down the pitch. In the ideal world I would only pick fast defenders.
But we also need to be faster passing the ball around and that only comes with lots of practice. Alot of our moves fizzle out because we give the opposition time to get back into a formation.

Accepted. But the second part of your post answers the first and is an extension of my point regarding organisation, coordination and not surrendering possession cheaply. Villa dominated because we dropped off too much and they moved the ball very well at times.

Be strong in areas where we don't want them to play but don't waste energy closing space where we're ok with them being. Don't hide and hoof it, wait for space to open up before moving forward as a unit. When it doesn't work drop back as a unit and start again.

We've got to be patient, savvy and clinical with possession when we have it and stifle the opposition in dead ends when we don't. You do this with a solid shape and game plan which requires the kind of discipline we need to achieve. It's not Pulisball, it's common sense ball. This will be easier if we can add experience and legs come January.

Ed: I will add this is easier to achieve with eleven of our players on the pitch.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 05:05:49 PM by SmethDan »
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
If you don't know how to use them, they will never be enough.
Oh, and always remember to defecate on those Vile chaps in claret and spew.

OhBilics

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #89 on: December 23, 2020, 06:23:13 PM »
I see some people were reading over my shoulder yesterday when I was writing a post that was trashed when my browser crashed.

Maybe I can shorten what I tried to say.

It seems to me that the defence, as such, isn't great, but it's not as bad as our "goals against" suggests. In my opinion the problem is that they're under constant pressure because the midfield don't break up opposition moves enough.

Sawyers, as much as I like him, isn't capable of doing that. He's better further up the pitch but he can't play DM. Livermore is out for at least 3 games.

Gallagher is nailed on to be one of those in central midfield, whether there are two or three there. So who takes the other spot(s)? Gallagher isn't a defensive player, or if he is we'd lose his power going forward and I think that would be counterproductive, but we do need at least one player to do that job. Probably two.

I think we only have Field and maybe Ajayi (who I think has played that role at previous clubs), but you lose the latter out of defence if you do that, which means your CHs are going to be 2 or 3 of Bartley, Ivan, O'Shea, and maybe Kipre. I think the only other possibility as DM is Peltier :o

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #90 on: December 27, 2020, 08:13:45 PM »
Can you imagine if all of our games were against the top 5?

Draw Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool. Lose 1-0 to Man U only thanks to penalty shenanigans and then 1-0 to Tottenham on an 88th minute winner.

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #91 on: December 27, 2020, 08:24:16 PM »
We need an out and out DCM to go with Gallagher and then Pereira could have a free role if Sam sees fit.

Hard to say really we need to see who we can move on in the window first.

mulliganstired

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2021, 03:32:06 PM »
As I see it, our very, very slim chance is if:

Sheff U continue to implode worse than us
Fulham stooge to about 30points (I think they will go down whatever)
Brighton have a terrible NY wobble and end up on about 30 points too

We somehow win about 6 and draw about 6 and stay up with the lowest points total ever

I am now off to put a tenner on Exeter City to win the FA Cup

Maresca Was A Baggie

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2021, 07:10:20 PM »
Think I have more chance of living on Mars than this team staying up

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2021, 07:29:20 PM »
Theres more chance of Bomber being drafted into the squad to score a hat trick versus Wolves (if Carlsberg .......)

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #95 on: January 05, 2021, 11:23:41 AM »
ZERO.

I was one of the few who believed we be worse off under Allardyce in the poll above. It would be interesting to see the poll redone now...
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2021, 11:31:57 AM »
No chance of staying up and Sam gone before the fat lady sings.
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #97 on: January 05, 2021, 11:42:38 AM »
I gave Allardyce the benefit of the doubt on the grounds that it couldn't get much worse. I was wrong. We started with less than 10% chance of survival and now we are below 5%.
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #98 on: January 05, 2021, 11:47:55 AM »
god help us if hes still with us in the championship next season
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #99 on: January 05, 2021, 11:48:44 AM »
It was always going to be difficult but I'm quietly confident that providing Allardyce can get 4 players in that he wants (CH, FB, DM and CF) then we can turn it around.
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