Poll

How do you rate our chances of survival under Allardyce?

Better than under Bilic
Worse than under Bilic
About the same

Author Topic: Chances of survival  (Read 44319 times)

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tommcneill

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2020, 10:27:44 AM »
I can’t believe I’m reading that after 2 days in charge you expected what?

The same side that apparently battled really hard at Man City and went out the same way against Villa was now wrong? Do you think that side would have played any better under Bilic? Having seen us most of this season I’m not inclined to agree they would have been any better.

Allardyce literally put the same side out, they still battled hard.

The sending off killed that game and team for us, but they still managed to keep them at bay for 50 mins before succumbing.

I’m struggling to understand you here
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baggie82

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2020, 10:35:37 AM »
I can’t believe I’m reading that after 2 days in charge you expected what?

The same side that apparently battled really hard at Man City and went out the same way against Villa was now wrong? Do you think that side would have played any better under Bilic? Having seen us most of this season I’m not inclined to agree they would have been any better.

Allardyce literally put the same side out, they still battled hard.

The sending off killed that game and team for us, but they still managed to keep them at bay for 50 mins before succumbing.

I’m struggling to understand you here

I’m not criticising Allardyce for selecting the same eleven against Villa. I am pointing out that the players do not appreciate hoof ball tactics and have lost a manager they loved. Our style of play against Villa has already taken a dark turn. Playing out from the back has been banned. It was noticeable that we were hopeless with eleven men before the red card. Furlong was under instructions to smash the ball 50 yards up the pitch rather than play it into midfield. It was a horrible game with no positives. What I saw on Sunday was a disjointed side, gutted their manager had left who hated the direct football instructions they had been given. I’ll judge Allardyce over the longer term. I think he is going to have a real battle on his hands to get the squad to buy into many of his ideas.

tex

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2020, 03:26:25 PM »
To dissect the teams future from Sunday is stretching it. I think we have gone but will still live in hope.

TheJacko2000

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2020, 05:08:09 PM »
I’m not criticising Allardyce for selecting the same eleven against Villa. I am pointing out that the players do not appreciate hoof ball tactics and have lost a manager they loved. Our style of play against Villa has already taken a dark turn. Playing out from the back has been banned. It was noticeable that we were hopeless with eleven men before the red card. Furlong was under instructions to smash the ball 50 yards up the pitch rather than play it into midfield. It was a horrible game with no positives. What I saw on Sunday was a disjointed side, gutted their manager had left who hated the direct football instructions they had been given. I’ll judge Allardyce over the longer term. I think he is going to have a real battle on his hands to get the squad to buy into many of his ideas.

That's called confirmation bias. You aren't the only member suffering from it last few days if it's any consolation.
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LiamTheBaggie

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2020, 05:16:15 PM »
That's called confirmation bias. You aren't the only member suffering from it last few days if it's any consolation.

Its a shame many of those throwing a hissy fit didn't put up a showing when Bilic needed them most..
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2020, 05:43:06 PM »
Its a shame many of those throwing a hissy fit didn't put up a showing when Bilic needed them most..

Like against Man City?  Do you think we showed the same application in both of those games?  Or do you think Villa are better than City.  There'd been a couple of disappointing performances under Bilic but at no point did it look like the players wanted him out.  Guess we'll see in the upcoming games just how much the players love Sam's defense first style.

Anyway, our chances of survival are nil.

Our ongoing problem is how poor our defending is - we now have a manager who will ask us to defend constantly.  How does anyone think that'll work?  We'd have more chance of staying up under Mowbrary (still pretty much nil) and let him take advantage of our attacking options.

TheJacko2000

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2020, 05:58:45 PM »
Like against Man City?  Do you think we showed the same application in both of those games?  Or do you think Villa are better than City.  There'd been a couple of disappointing performances under Bilic but at no point did it look like the players wanted him out.  Guess we'll see in the upcoming games just how much the players love Sam's defense first style.

Anyway, our chances of survival are nil.

Our ongoing problem is how poor our defending is - we now have a manager who will ask us to defend constantly.  How does anyone think that'll work?  We'd have more chance of staying up under Mowbrary (still pretty much nil) and let him take advantage of our attacking options.

1. It was too late. Where was that fortitude since March?

2. That isn't the blueprint. The plan is to improve the defending, not do more of it equally badly.
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zippyandbungle

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2020, 06:01:15 PM »
Albion strike early in a transfer window, when has that ever happened?  We need to strike early to recruit quality, not the likes of Phil Jones or James Tomkins.
I think you have just stated the problem ,those players are exactly what we need at this point, but alas fans want Messi and Ronald types.
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baggie38

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2020, 06:15:50 PM »
Zero none of our players are at the standard required. We have been let down massively by Lai and Dowling. Neither of which should be anywhere near a Premier league football club

mulliganstired

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2020, 06:37:20 PM »
To dissect the teams future from Sunday is stretching it. I think we have gone but will still live in hope.
I think we've gone too, but maybe the one chance is bringing in a center midfielder to do a Kevin Campbell partnered with Gallagher and hope Perreira and Diangana can pull of a few bits of magic to somehow win 9 games.

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2020, 07:00:16 PM »
I think we've gone too, but maybe the one chance is bringing in a center midfielder to do a Kevin Campbell partnered with Gallagher and hope Perreira and Diangana can pull of a few bits of magic to somehow win 9 games.

I'd settle for 22 draws and 2 wins.  ;)
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2020, 08:50:21 PM »
1. It was too late. Where was that fortitude since March?

2. That isn't the blueprint. The plan is to improve the defending, not do more of it equally badly.

1.  The same team played 100x better against City a few days previously than against Villa, even though City is a much better side.  Simple fact.  What had changed?

2.  How do you propose we make Ivanovic run faster? Bartley a better defender? Ajayi a better passer?  How do we get Sawyers to suddenly be the DM we need?

Like I said, it's all well and good saying we need to defend better but these are the defenders we have. 

mulliganstired

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2020, 09:13:52 PM »
I'd settle for 22 draws and 2 wins.  ;)
We got 16 draws for the great escape, so your not far off!

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2020, 09:36:27 PM »
We got 16 draws for the great escape, so your not far off!

That's true! Good call.
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TheJacko2000

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2020, 09:46:53 PM »
1.  The same team played 100x better against City a few days previously than against Villa, even though City is a much better side.  Simple fact.  What had changed?

2.  How do you propose we make Ivanovic run faster? Bartley a better defender? Ajayi a better passer?  How do we get Sawyers to suddenly be the DM we need?

Like I said, it's all well and good saying we need to defend better but these are the defenders we have.

1. You've not answered my question. I will do you the courtesy of answering yours. The difference was the red card.

2. He will put a system in place that hides individual weaknesses, your examples: Ivanovic (play deeper), Bartley (dropped), Ajayi (instructed to get rid), Sawyers (dropped or deployed further forward). You know, just like Hodgson did for the RDM team and Pulis did for the Irvine team, before him.

They will be drilled on shape and patterns of play. It was widely reported Hodgson did one session a week that was like musical statues, just getting the players into defensive shape. It was reported Pulis did several sessions on defensive positioning that didn't involve a football on the training pitch. These are areas that were obviously overlooked by Bilić and his staff.
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2020, 09:47:17 PM »
1. It was too late. Where was that fortitude since March?

2. That isn't the blueprint. The plan is to improve the defending, not do more of it equally badly.
A good coach could improve the defending but the defenders we have are always going to make individual errors that will cost us our problem is we won't score enough goals to cover for this and won't win enough games to stay up.

baggie82

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2020, 09:53:24 PM »
1. You've not answered my question. I will do you the courtesy of answering yours. The difference was the red card.

Your own confirmation bias is at work here. You’ve ignored the reality that we were getting completely outplayed and we’re losing with eleven men.

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2020, 10:18:50 PM »
The worst problem is not the defence but the midfield!  Most of the defenders (Ivanovic apart) have done an adequate job for most parts of the season.

We have the worst and 2nd worst midfielders on the division in Sawyers and Livermore.  They stated the season as a pairing before Gallagher was up to speed!  Neither are any good at this level and are the single biggest contributory factor in poor team performance.

Allardyce must get in a quality central midfielder who is mobile to play alongside Gallagher.  We need two fast wingers and Robinson up top to give more pace in the side.  We are too slow.  We need to play higher up the pitch, not deep.

I hope the rumours of James Tomkins, Phil Jones and Andy Carroll are just that because neither is good enough. 


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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2020, 10:40:02 PM »
The worst problem is not the defence but the midfield!  Most of the defenders (Ivanovic apart) have done an adequate job for most parts of the season.

We have the worst and 2nd worst midfielders on the division in Sawyers and Livermore.  They stated the season as a pairing before Gallagher was up to speed!  Neither are any good at this level and are the single biggest contributory factor in poor team performance.

Allardyce must get in a quality central midfielder who is mobile to play alongside Gallagher.  We need two fast wingers and Robinson up top to give more pace in the side.  We are too slow.  We need to play higher up the pitch, not deep.

I hope the rumours of James Tomkins, Phil Jones and Andy Carroll are just that because neither is good enough.

And there you have it.   None are good enough but all are probably better than what we have in those roles.

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2020, 10:44:31 PM »
Your own confirmation bias is at work here. You’ve ignored the reality that we were getting completely outplayed and we’re losing with eleven men.

We got completely outplayed at Manchester City, there was just no Furlong lapse. No difference mate aside from a mistake and the red card. Nothing to do with CB.
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2020, 10:56:07 PM »
We got completely outplayed at Manchester City, there was just no Furlong lapse. No difference mate aside from a mistake and the red card. Nothing to do with CB.

We actually had a couple of shots on goal at Man City and scored. It’s ridiculous anyway to be comparing the difficulties of playing away at Man City with a derby against Villa at home. We couldn’t get the ball off Villa or get out of our own half with eleven men. We couldn’t string a sequence of passes together or work their keeper. We were completely lifeless from start to finish.

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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #71 on: December 23, 2020, 12:57:06 AM »
In a word- SLIM
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #72 on: December 23, 2020, 08:15:56 AM »
Like against Man City?  Do you think we showed the same application in both of those games?  Or do you think Villa are better than City.  There'd been a couple of disappointing performances under Bilic but at no point did it look like the players wanted him out.  Guess we'll see in the upcoming games just how much the players love Sam's defense first style.

Anyway, our chances of survival are nil.

Our ongoing problem is how poor our defending is - we now have a manager who will ask us to defend constantly.  How does anyone think that'll work?  We'd have more chance of staying up under Mowbrary (still pretty much nil) and let him take advantage of our attacking options.

Well you’ve managed to find one game to suit your argument. It kind of proves the point really.

Our defensive  players might make the odd mistake, all players do up and down the leagues. Our issue under Bilic was our collective responsibility to defend was none existent.

Allardyce will drill the players so each players is aware of their defined roles which in tune will make us more difficult to beat.

In comparison, Di Mattel’s side of 2010 had a similarly leaky defence. Hodgson installed the basics and managed to get a tune from the likes of Shorey, Tamas, Meite and Olsson - all of whom had been derided by supporters. The blueprint is entirely the same, granted Hodgson had a better central midfield at his disposal.
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #73 on: December 23, 2020, 08:22:53 AM »
1. You've not answered my question. I will do you the courtesy of answering yours. The difference was the red card.

2. He will put a system in place that hides individual weaknesses, your examples: Ivanovic (play deeper), Bartley (dropped), Ajayi (instructed to get rid), Sawyers (dropped or deployed further forward). You know, just like Hodgson did for the RDM team and Pulis did for the Irvine team, before him.

They will be drilled on shape and patterns of play. It was widely reported Hodgson did one session a week that was like musical statues, just getting the players into defensive shape. It was reported Pulis did several sessions on defensive positioning that didn't involve a football on the training pitch. These are areas that were obviously overlooked by Bilić and his staff.

I missed this response when replying to BA.

This sums the situation up perfectly in my view.

Defending is a collective team effort - we have failed to that adequately pretty much throughout the entirety of Bilic’s tenure.
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Re: Chances of survival
« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2020, 08:43:19 AM »
Chances of Survival?  ZERO

We are in the stickiest situation since Sticky the Stick Insect got stuck on a sticky bun.

Cricket score at Anfield; if Liverpool put seven past Palace who thrashed us 5-1, score against may go into double figures.
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