Author Topic: VAR watch (For WBA)  (Read 2615 times)

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WBArgo

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VAR watch (For WBA)
« on: September 27, 2020, 12:11:10 AM »
I thought I would introduce this after tonights game which has left me a little bitter.

Game 1 vs Leicester: Leicester get a first penalty from VAR. Whilst not the most controversial penalty it did seem soft. Other teams have had VAR over-rule worse penalties this season (see Brighton vs Man Utd with Connolly). Regardless, I don't think this would have affected the game. We were already 1-0 down and didn't look like scoring all game. Not only this, but after the first, Leicester started to steam roll us. Annoyingly, the check seemed to take 5 seconds or so as if it was a foregone conclusion.

Game 2 vs Everton: For their first goal, VAR correctly said that Furlong headed the ball back to Calvert-Lewin. I know he did this, but they didn't mention that Richarlison was in an off-side position which affected Furlong's header. In short, had he not been bothering Furlong in the offside position then Furlong would have probably hit a more clean header. To be honest though, I don't know the rules on this and if they've been updated/changed so if I'm wrong on this one then I hold my hands up.

Game 2 vs Everton: For their equaliser, there was a clear block off the ball in the build up which lead to Rodriguez getting an easy shot on goal. For me, this was the first time of the season that VAR had really harmed us. As said with the other examples, it may not have affected the game and I'm not sure if it should have stood. Having said this, we still conceded 5 with 10 men so I doubt we'd have got much from Everton who are doing well.

Game 3 vs Chelsea: Their second goal came from a potential foul on Furlong further up the pitch. Like the 2nd Everton goal, what was infuriating was that there was no VAR check on this at all, as if it never happened. This is simply not fair and if VAR is to be used, it needs to be done properly and not cherry pick certain events whilst ignoring others.

Game 3 vs Chelsea: Their equaliser came from a handball from Havertz. I know the new rule is that if it hits the sleeve then it's not a handball but it was lower than the sleeve and more on the bicep (he happened to be wearing a long-sleeved shirt). For me, this directly effected the goal as the ball would have probably gone out otherwise but it kept it alive from which they scored. Unlike the other two games, the VAR calls against Chelsea where very bad and cost us 2 extra points.

I thought this thread would be useful this season. Without sounding bias I think we've had a few clear calls go against us so far as well as more debatable calls. At the same time I don't see much has gone for us. I've also seen a few other games like Palace, Brighton etc today where the bigger team has been favoured yet again. It is hard enough to stay up when newly promoted but it seems harder than ever when technology harms you even further. Please feel free to agree/disagree. As said with some of the calls, I may not be as up to date with current rules etc.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2020, 06:06:04 AM »
I thought I would introduce this after tonights game which has left me a little bitter.

Game 1 vs Leicester: Leicester get a first penalty from VAR. Whilst not the most controversial penalty it did seem soft. Other teams have had VAR over-rule worse penalties this season (see Brighton vs Man Utd with Connolly). Regardless, I don't think this would have affected the game. We were already 1-0 down and didn't look like scoring all game. Not only this, but after the first, Leicester started to steam roll us. Annoyingly, the check seemed to take 5 seconds or so as if it was a foregone conclusion.

Game 2 vs Everton: For their first goal, VAR correctly said that Furlong headed the ball back to Calvert-Lewin. I know he did this, but they didn't mention that Richarlison was in an off-side position which affected Furlong's header. In short, had he not been bothering Furlong in the offside position then Furlong would have probably hit a more clean header. To be honest though, I don't know the rules on this and if they've been updated/changed so if I'm wrong on this one then I hold my hands up.

Game 2 vs Everton: For their equaliser, there was a clear block off the ball in the build up which lead to Rodriguez getting an easy shot on goal. For me, this was the first time of the season that VAR had really harmed us. As said with the other examples, it may not have affected the game and I'm not sure if it should have stood. Having said this, we still conceded 5 with 10 men so I doubt we'd have got much from Everton who are doing well.

Game 3 vs Chelsea: Their second goal came from a potential foul on Furlong further up the pitch. Like the 2nd Everton goal, what was infuriating was that there was no VAR check on this at all, as if it never happened. This is simply not fair and if VAR is to be used, it needs to be done properly and not cherry pick certain events whilst ignoring others.

Game 3 vs Chelsea: Their equaliser came from a handball from Havertz. I know the new rule is that if it hits the sleeve then it's not a handball but it was lower than the sleeve and more on the bicep (he happened to be wearing a long-sleeved shirt). For me, this directly effected the goal as the ball would have probably gone out otherwise but it kept it alive from which they scored. Unlike the other two games, the VAR calls against Chelsea where very bad and cost us 2 extra points.

I thought this thread would be useful this season. Without sounding bias I think we've had a few clear calls go against us so far as well as more debatable calls. At the same time I don't see much has gone for us. I've also seen a few other games like Palace, Brighton etc today where the bigger team has been favoured yet again. It is hard enough to stay up when newly promoted but it seems harder than ever when technology harms you even further. Please feel free to agree/disagree. As said with some of the calls, I may not be as up to date with current rules etc.
Great post, spot on, working out much as I expected.
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2020, 07:09:50 AM »
It may of come off his arm but it still doesn’t excuse robson Kanu not putting his foot through the ball to clear it

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2020, 07:43:51 AM »
I remember the first season back under megson the travelling support would sing "the premier league is f'in bent, the premier league is f'in bent"

Watching the VAR calls so far this season not just for our club but the other smaller or less fashionable clubs ain't getting the rub of the green. Brighton had a pen overruled today which as you said leciester won v us. For the bigger team.VAR checks longer and more thorough and check back so many stages of play and sometimes take an eternity  in coming to the decision for the big team. For the smaller sides they barely check anything.

VAR ruining the game. They should have left it at goal line technology. If they are going to use VAR they need to either have it like cricket and have so many appeals per game or put like a 30 second time limit and if decision cant be reached stick with original on field decision.

We will have a hard time staying up as is. This will make it far harder
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johnny Cash

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2020, 08:07:21 AM »
Some of those infringements are minor and we would be livid if we had goals chalked off for them.

Var will inevitably seem to go against us more than for us this season because teams that play us will have a disproportionate number of opportunities again us than we have against them. This alone gives Creates more opportunity for VAR to come in to play.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2020, 08:22:01 AM »
This is essentially my problem with the decision.

https://twitter.com/FootballJOE/status/1309923670253543424

Both incidents are unintentional handball but the first is a penalty no waiting to see how play pans out whereas in our case because it drops to an Albion player it does not count. Whether it falls to an Albion player or not it is as beneficial to us to have a free kick as it is to Everton to have a penalty.
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2020, 08:32:15 AM »
They explained it all on match of the day last night .

Last season that goals ruled out by the laws but they changed the law in the break . The handball has to directly lead to a goal so basically it needs to assist a goal which yesterday it didn’t . Kanu failed to clear the ball properly then the ball was put in . 2-3 passages of play before the goal . So in the laws now it isn’t handball.

There’s no way it’s deliberate handball . Last season we wouldn’t have batted an eyelid at it . Before VAR it wouldn’t have even been discussed

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2020, 08:57:50 AM »
That hand ball law is simply wrong. You cant have an accidental handball that is punishable in some circumstances and its perfectly legal in others but still benefits the team that handballed it. They should take a leaf out of the rugby law book and use the advantage law, if a team hand balls it and it leads to a goal then its pulled back and a free kick award, if the team who were cheated gain possession back or clear it play on.
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johnny Cash

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2020, 09:02:05 AM »

There’s no way it’s deliberate handball . Last season we wouldn’t have batted an eyelid at it . Before VAR it wouldn’t have even been discussed


I disagree. A few years ago refs would have blown for it because it keeps the ball alive in a dangerous area. Now instead of giving a free kick they see how it develops. If a side defends it well then there’s no harm done but there’s no advantage as such to the defending side. However if the ball bounces around a bit it suddenly becomes a new phase and if goal is scored, it’s then becomes a clear disadvantage to the defending side who would have reset and pushed up the pitch it a free kick was given.

Delaying decisions only benefit the attacking sides, which is generally going to benefit the top six more than the bottom six. Ins no surprise the perceived favour towards the top sides is heightened, the rules make it inevitable.

wbarenno

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2020, 09:10:36 AM »
I disagree. A few years ago refs would have blown for it because it keeps the ball alive in a dangerous area. Now instead of giving a free kick they see how it develops. If a side defends it well then there’s no harm done but there’s no advantage as such to the defending side. However if the ball bounces around a bit it suddenly becomes a new phase and if goal is scored, it’s then becomes a clear disadvantage to the defending side who would have reset and pushed up the pitch it a free kick was given.

Delaying decisions only benefit the attacking sides, which is generally going to benefit the top six more than the bottom six. Ins no surprise the perceived favour towards the top sides is heightened, the rules make it inevitable.

I don’t ever see any ref blowing up for that mate . Did any players claim handball ? I cant remember.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2020, 09:36:04 AM »
Slightly off topic but in a similar vein. If it  had been  us, rather than Chelsea going for an equaliser, would there have been so much added time? I think not.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2020, 09:48:37 AM »
One angle it looked an accidental handball, another angle it looked more deliberate the way he shaped his body to control it and stop it going out of play. Should have been a free kick to us I think. The ruling is only for accidental handball. The officials didn't hang about to award Chelsea the goal. If Robson-Kanu clears it properly or Johnstone holds onto the cross rather than parry it into the danger zone, we would be celebrating a great win.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2020, 10:32:34 AM »
I think a thread like this is just going to depress us more! We know decisions are going to go against us at the top level, just like we probably (even though I don’t like to admit it) get a few softer decisions whilst we are in the championship.
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2020, 11:28:26 AM »
If that Chelsea handball had happened in the middle of the pitch then it would be given as handball.  As for it didn't assist the goal, how can they say that when it would have gone out of play for a goal kick otherwise.  They scored like 2 seconds later.  If the argument is Kanu played the ball then he's only done so in a panic because the Chelsea player kept it alive in the box.

The biggest killer though is why did they even bother checking it if it was a previous passage of play??

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2020, 12:06:49 PM »
Quote from Roy Hodgson, "Nonsense handball law is killing the game of football".

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2020, 12:13:02 PM »
Why not just keep it simple? Hand ball is a foul, should be called as a foul and the game stopped and a free kick given to the opposing team. Nothing that happens in the ensuing 'passages of play" is therefore legal or relevant except if the opposing team gains a clear advantage, when the appropriate rule should be applied. All the var has to decide is, was there a handball? simple yes or no.

Maybe the ruling should be: Was there at any point foul play leading to a passage or passages of play that resulted in an event creating the goal in question. If yes then the goal should not stand and play be brought back to the original offence. If this is considered in a fair and impartial manner then West Brom have 2 fewer goals against and 2 more points. The decisions will not always be in our favour but as long as impartiality is clear then we can have no complaints. At present the pre-match team talk should be "looks like we have to beat at least 12 of the buggers again but you have done it before so it's nothing new, now go out and respect em but take em apart.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2020, 01:18:27 PM »
Small time thread this lads. Sound like the D1ngle5.
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2020, 01:49:48 PM »
Small time thread this lads. Sound like the D1ngle5.
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2020, 03:03:18 PM »
We can bleat about the handball as much as we like - I think we should focus our attentions on HRK and his pathetic attempt at clearing the ball. He spanks that ball 60 yards down the pitch then we win the game. His feeble attempt of a clearance went didn’t even go 6 yards...
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2020, 03:11:38 PM »
Why anywhere on the field is a hand ball classes as a hand ball but in the box?????

HRK joke and not a funny one!

Good post this as it's hard enough for clubs as it is.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 04:05:47 PM by MarkW »
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2020, 03:22:16 PM »
We can bleat about the handball as much as we like - I think we should focus our attentions on HRK and his pathetic attempt at clearing the ball. He spanks that ball 60 yards down the pitch then we win the game. His feeble attempt of a clearance went didn’t even go 6 yards...

Nail and head Liam. As soon as I seen him coming on I knew we were done for, and this chance he had of clearing the ball, as well as his none contribution up front speaks volumes...handball or not [and it wasn't in my opinion].
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gazberg

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2020, 03:22:48 PM »
This thread will soon become more frustrating to read than the transfer forum.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2020, 04:49:23 PM »
HRK can claim the handball deflected the course of the ball.  So instead of the ball going out for a goalkick, in a split second it had suddenly changed angle of trajectory and he couldn't get a clean kick at it.   Bit like a divot of earth leading to an air kick.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2020, 04:52:31 PM »
This thread will soon become more frustrating to read than the transfer forum.

Hopefully the thread gets binned sooner than later.
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2020, 05:17:31 PM »
Last season, an accidental handball by the attacked saw a goal chalked off, while defenders didn't concede anything for one. And everybody said they should change it.

So this season it's the other way around, and it's making them look even more like idiots.

Just go back to intentional handball rules. The law is an ass.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2020, 05:47:59 PM »
The law isn’t the ass, the people that draw up the laws are the real idiots.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2020, 06:21:27 PM »
It's amazing. The law used to be "hand ball" now it is invariably "arm ball." When a player wants to gain height he needs his arms. The "Powers that be" need to get some of the retired refs and get a discussion on how the Law is to be used. As I have stated in an earlier post it used to be "hand to ball" and not "ball to hand"

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2020, 09:40:00 PM »
As if we needed proof
https://twitter.com/URef_Official/status/1311593383614246913

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2020, 08:26:51 AM »
Slightly off topic but in a similar vein. If it  had been  us, rather than Chelsea going for an equaliser, would there have been so much added time? I think not.

The time added (5 minutes) was correct. We made 3 subs, Chelsea made 3 subs, Chelsea scored 3 goals each one of those things adds 30 seconds which adds up to 4.5 mins. Now Chelsea made a double sub at half time; even taking that time off the ref should have added 3.5 mins on and that's before all other stops in play. So he really only added on 90 seconds of additional time for stops during the second half.

If it had been a 0-0 draw with no subs and he had added on 2 mins would you have complained?
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2020, 10:07:28 AM »
The time added (5 minutes) was correct. We made 3 subs, Chelsea made 3 subs, Chelsea scored 3 goals each one of those things adds 30 seconds which adds up to 4.5 mins. Now Chelsea made a double sub at half time; even taking that time off the ref should have added 3.5 mins on and that's before all other stops in play. So he really only added on 90 seconds of additional time for stops during the second half.

If it had been a 0-0 draw with no subs and he had added on 2 mins would you have complained?

We also had a booking for time wasting.
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2020, 12:09:39 PM »
So he really only added on 90 seconds of additional time for stops during the second half.
.

In this case why was the ref so quick off the mark to book Furlong for wasting time taking a throw-in, when the time taken was very much in line with all the other throws for both sides during the game?

 No responses required- We know why don't we?

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2020, 10:09:01 PM »
Turned it off tonight after their pen...turns out they even got to re-take it. I am officially done with football, I can't watch it anymore it's awful...the game has completely gone.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2020, 10:10:33 PM »
Even Rio with his red shirt on says it was a stonewall penalty and disgraceful that it was overturned...

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2020, 10:32:44 PM »
1) Our penalty should never have been overturned.
2) Blatant foul on Gallagher so their penalty should never have stood.

Man Utd get these ridiculous VAR decisions every week, they are notorious for it, so it’s not just because it’s Albion. Luckiest side in the league.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2020, 10:33:58 PM »
I’ve seen a couple of people say Fernandes got a touch of the ball before clattering Gallagher. Am I going mad or does he not get anywhere near the ball?!?

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2020, 10:34:27 PM »
I’ve seen a couple of people say Fernandes got a touch of the ball before clattering Gallagher. Am I going mad or does he not get anywhere near the ball?!?

He shins him. He doesnt touch the ball before shinning CG

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2020, 10:40:18 PM »
1) Our penalty should never have been overturned.
2) Blatant foul on Gallagher so their penalty should never have stood.

Man Utd get these ridiculous VAR decisions every week, they are notorious for it, so it’s not just because it’s Albion. Luckiest side in the league.

Don't believe they are lucky 82. I believe they cheat. Or that like with a number of the 'big' clubs referees  and assistant refs, are 'encouraged' to make sure these clubs get 'fair' treatment.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2020, 10:59:24 PM »
Peter Walton, ex ref. said VAR for penalty calls is only when there is doubt in the refs. mind. In this case he pointed straight to the spot, not after 30 seconds. It was the Man U players getting in his ear that put doubt in his mind, but even then the replays showed it was a clear foul.
Billic said he gave all the decisions Man U's way second half. Such as when he pulled play back for a foul when we were in a good position, but played advantage when Man U were in a good position. 
Is it just a coincidence that Man U do so well from refereeing decsions?
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2020, 11:03:33 PM »
He shins him. He doesnt touch the ball before shinning CG

Agreed, best case for Utd simultaneous contact with the ball whilst kicking CG shin. Penalty all day long and to have that overruled after being given is the real scandal.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2020, 11:05:59 PM »
Don't believe they are lucky 82. I believe they cheat. Or that like with a number of the 'big' clubs referees  and assistant refs, are 'encouraged' to make sure these clubs get 'fair' treatment.

It might be more nefarious than luck. I don’t know. However it’s not the case that all ‘big clubs’ are getting this sort of treatment. Liverpool for example we’re done over at Everton last month. Utd have being given way more penalties than any other side in the league, and way more dodgy VAR calls - similar to tonight VAR won them the match at Brighton earlier this season.

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2020, 11:18:30 PM »
Watch the spin on the ball, it doesn't change at all. 

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2020, 11:20:15 PM »
Even the BBC's comments forum is flooded with fans saying we were robbed by the officials. And remember, these will in the main not be Albion fans.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/54941199
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2020, 09:31:52 AM »
Last night just highlights my main two bugbears with VAR.

It can't rescue bad officiating whether that is on the pitch or in the VAR room. Yes it cuts out some of the most blatant  refereeing decisions but VAR now gives bad officials two opportunities to screw up rather than just the one. The Gallagher penalty is obvious whether Fernandes gets the faintest touch or not the follow through takes Gallagher out and the ball is still at Gallagher's feet. The VAR official should never have asked the ref to review it and the ref on reviewing it should not have overturned his decision.

Second major bugbear is that while the rules are clear without VAR they can't be enforced in such a precise manner. The retaken penalty is just such a situation. Generally in real time unless the Goal Keeper almost walks toward the ball during the takers run up it is almost impossible to judge whether the keeper has gone too soon or not, throw in the staggered run up and it makes it doubly difficult.

In this instance Johnstone does take a forward step just before contact I only know this for sure because I watched the incident in slow motion twice.

If anything it is the second issue that  grates more than bad refereeing because it  is an issue created by VAR. 
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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2020, 09:07:11 PM »
Anybody seen the Liverpool handball that wasn't given  :o ?

gazberg

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Re: VAR watch (For WBA)
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2020, 09:09:09 PM »
Anybody seen the Liverpool handball that wasn't given  :o ?

Yep, reminded me of volleyball when they twonk it away. Disgusting.