Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 59338 times)

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baggiejohn

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3150 on: May 23, 2020, 10:45:37 PM »
John...I respect your posts, I’ll tell you why
You stand back, look at the subject and post an honest thought or observation...there’s no anger/snipping/agenda ...

On this I do totally agree...but with a caveat that if it is your own kid....and you’ve seen (Boris) what could happen...I’d want to drive them myself
Now, I know that’s against the idea of the guidelines but us humans have emotions and even with best intentions ....sometimes we just do what we believe is right.


Yes, I get all that, but remember Cummins has worked his way up to the very top, to do that, you know how to play the political game. At that level, your decisions are considered.
He took a risk, & miscalculated.
Jenrick did the same, but so far, he's got away with it.
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The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3151 on: May 23, 2020, 11:03:02 PM »
Given that the civil service is traditionally something of a juggernaut, & probably does need some reform, would you say that the evolutionary methods proposed by John Manzoni, would be more or less effective than the revolution storm proposed by Dominic Cummins?

And (excuse the bad English here), if you were a Prime Minister, responsible for the civil service, & your chief adviser, who was advocating the revolution, had made a politically sensitive error of judgement, how would you feel about supporting his methodology?

Totally respect your point John, but I'm getting just a bit fed up the blame games being played out by certain public types and media sectors. But I will attempt some sort of simple answers to your very interesting but complex questions. The fact that I see, or should that be the past tense? I saw Manzoni as part of the problem and not the answer, would lead me to consider that the Cummins revolution is the more likely of the two to bring about beneficial change. Despite wrapping up his ideology in a lot of management speak, if my memory serves, Manzoni still maintains in essence that the civil service are the experts and should not look up to ministers in matters of policy. This is in my humble opinion not what the cs are there for and will lead to more of the overt and covert obstructive attitudes and methodologies witnessed in the recent Brexit debates

If, and it is a very big if, I were a PM, and was in full possession of all of the facts about the case, and was not swayed by predominantly inveterate left wing or anti government of whatever leaning media, or anti English retaliatory politicking by SNP members, or disappointed EU remain voters who still believe they should have had their minority opinions upheld. All of whom seem to be the ones making the issue  'a politically sensitive error', I would make a decision based upon those facts and my own opinion and personal knowledge the person so accused.


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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3152 on: May 23, 2020, 11:03:47 PM »
Further indication they are intent on riding this out...

No. 10 statement

I almost await each weekend now with bated breath to see what the politically motivated exclusive will be.

That statement makes absolutely no sense, how was the first report inaccurate? You’ve had every major minister come out to defend him saying the journey was necessary because family comes first etc. so how is the first report inaccurate? Was it was a 254 mile journey instead of 260 miles?

I’m glad he’s got his fingers burnt as I loath the bloke but in reality this isn’t going to change a thing, if he gets sacked or resigns he’l still be Johnson’s puppet master he’l just be pulling the strings from behind closed doors. I think it goes to show the mark of the man that whilst showing alleged severe effects of Covid that he’d travel 260 miles to his elderly parents, regardless if he stayed in a separate building etc. if I had Covid symptoms I’d want to be 260 miles away from my loved ones especially if they were elderly as I wouldn’t want to put them at risk of catching it.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3153 on: May 23, 2020, 11:14:19 PM »
That statement makes absolutely no sense, how was the first report inaccurate? You’ve had every major minister come out to defend him saying the journey was necessary because family comes first etc. so how is the first report inaccurate? Was it was a 254 mile journey instead of 260 miles?

I’m glad he’s got his fingers burnt as I loath the bloke but in reality this isn’t going to change a thing, if he gets sacked or resigns he’l still be Johnson’s puppet master he’l just be pulling the strings from behind closed doors. I think it goes to show the mark of the man that whilst showing alleged severe effects of Covid that he’d travel 260 miles to his elderly parents, regardless if he stayed in a separate building etc. if I had Covid symptoms I’d want to be 260 miles away from my loved ones especially if they were elderly as I wouldn’t want to put them at risk of catching it.
You know him, you’ve met him, he’s done something to personally upset you ?
If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3154 on: May 23, 2020, 11:17:25 PM »
You know him, you’ve met him, he’s done something to personally upset you ?

No, it's because he's good at his job.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3155 on: May 23, 2020, 11:41:48 PM »
I really don't think they care that much, they know it's tomorrows chip paper.
As will the fear of a virus. Getting boringly political on here.
Humanity is a parade of fools, and I’m at the front of it...twirling the baton.

baggiejohn

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3156 on: May 23, 2020, 11:44:55 PM »
Totally respect your point John, but I'm getting just a bit fed up the blame games being played out by certain public types and media sectors. But I will attempt some sort of simple answers to your very interesting but complex questions. The fact that I see, or should that be the past tense? I saw Manzoni as part of the problem and not the answer, would lead me to consider that the Cummins revolution is the more likely of the two to bring about beneficial change. Despite wrapping up his ideology in a lot of management speak, if my memory serves, Manzoni still maintains in essence that the civil service are the experts and should not look up to ministers in matters of policy. This is in my humble opinion not what the cs are there for and will lead to more of the overt and covert obstructive attitudes and methodologies witnessed in the recent Brexit debates

If, and it is a very big if, I were a PM, and was in full possession of all of the facts about the case, and was not swayed by predominantly inveterate left wing or anti government of whatever leaning media, or anti English retaliatory politicking by SNP members, or disappointed EU remain voters who still believe they should have had their minority opinions upheld. All of whom seem to be the ones making the issue  'a politically sensitive error', I would make a decision based upon those facts and my own opinion and personal knowledge the person so accused.

OK, but given that the civil service is permanent & ministers, have a maximum 5 year cycle, do you think it's wise to rip up the current model & replace it with a new model, with all the potential for service disruption, when the policy & strategy could change in 5 years?
Bear in mind a much simpler project of building a nuclear power station at Hinkley Point will take 10 years.
Wouldn't it be simpler to use powers of persuasion to evolve new strategies, with the existing network, who have experience of dealing with evolving & dynamic strategies?

It's an accepted fact that Dominic Cummins did drive the 260 miles from London to Durham & essentially in contravention of the guidelines laid down by the government he is advising.
There may have been mitigating circumstances, but, in his position, it wasn't the only solution to safeguarding his son, so the question I'm asking is was the decision rash, & is there a question mark over his judgement?

Quote
Manzoni still maintains in essence that the civil service are the experts and should not look up to ministers in matters of policy.

It's not the job of the civil service to dictate policy, that's the job of government. The civil service translate policy into strategy & then tactics.
Manzoni was right, that the civil service are the experts in the translation process, but there was some overlap & his ideas were to rationalise that overlap.
Everyone in business knows that you need a team of people with vision balanced with a more pragmatic team who can make some of those visions work.
As a rule of thumb for every 10 ideas only one is commercially viable, ripping the civil service up & filling it with visionaries would be a disaster IMO
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 12:10:32 AM by baggiejohn »
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3157 on: May 23, 2020, 11:46:04 PM »
As will the fear of a virus. Getting boringly political on here.

Unfortunately MSM are ensuring that the virus isn't the story any more. The handling of the virus is.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3158 on: Yesterday at 03:48:37 AM »
Haha is this the latest? Seriously clutching at straws.
Honestly don't think he's/they're bothered. They've got a huge majority, they are going to deliver Brexit, they're miles ahead in the polls. The people making the loudest noises will never consider them to have any goodwill in the bank so they just won't try with these people.
I almost await each weekend now with bated breath to see what the politically motivated exclusive will be.
Totally irrelevant to the Cummings incident.
So he's not going anywhere then. As I said last night when the story broke.

I won't lie, the sound of this ostrich act is somehow equally as deafening as everything around it.
From afar, this is increasingly blending into instances similar to that across the Atlantic.

Once again, this government is doing more to defend this unelected man than their own policies. Is this sustainable?
Where is the line? Or should this person, this elite person, be truly immune to any challenge?
I'm sure there are plenty of spin agents more than capable of his job for the so-called 'populists'...




They've come out today and talked about the transport network
As someone who likes trains, I am horrified by how they think they can claim to reinstate two separate stretches of track... that are still operating today? (Abbey line; Clitheroe to Hellifield line)
The announcement also seems to mention £500k for 'rail infrastructure' - very "that's good because it sounds like a lot". A mid project at TfGM burns through more than that budget in a week. Whether that's acceptable or not is not addressed by this.

It's a poor, cobbled-together-at-short-notice cover-up announcement.




Unfortunately MSM are ensuring that the virus isn't the story any more. The handling of the virus is.

How is this a bad thing?
That the existence of this threat became known more than a few months ago now, I would severely fear if 'what to do about it' was kept so far away from public eyes for so long.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3159 on: Yesterday at 05:13:19 AM »
I won't lie, the sound of this ostrich act is somehow equally as deafening as everything around it.
From afar, this is increasingly blending into instances similar to that across the Atlantic.

Do you think so? Nothing like the States for me, all Cummings is guilty of is masterminding the Brexit vote, and delivering the largest Conservative majority for years, all the noise is from the left, who are imo once again misjudging public feeling with numerous cries of whataboutery especially regarding things that have nothing in common with Cummings circumstances (funerals for example).

Once again, this government is doing more to defend this unelected man than their own policies. Is this sustainable?
Where is the line? Or should this person, this elite person, be truly immune to any challenge?
I'm sure there are plenty of spin agents more than capable of his job for the so-called 'populists'...

They're playing the man and the policy with a straight bat. Today's briefing was clear: stick to the rules; while reiterating over and over again that DC did.

It will be a different story if the allegations in today's papers turn out to be true (although they have already denied them).




As someone who likes trains, I am horrified by how they think they can claim to reinstate two separate stretches of track... that are still operating today? (Abbey line; Clitheroe to Hellifield line)
The announcement also seems to mention £500k for 'rail infrastructure' - very "that's good because it sounds like a lot". A mid project at TfGM burns through more than that budget in a week. Whether that's acceptable or not is not addressed by this.

It's a poor, cobbled-together-at-short-notice cover-up announcement.

Is this part of the Beeching reversal, I don't know a great deal about trains, but if it is, it was promised in the election campaign.


How is this a bad thing?
That the existence of this threat became known more than a few months ago now, I would severely fear if 'what to do about it' was kept so far away from public eyes for so long.

It isn't necessarily a bad thing and I was responding to CBB's post in good faith, what is a concern it the manner of this supposed holding to account, it's not based in any sort of evidence or fact, just a series of headline grabbing accusations, demands for apologies that they are never going to make or 'gotcha's' as they've been described by other posters.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:40:54 AM by TheJacko2000 »
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Political Cake

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3160 on: Yesterday at 07:03:40 AM »
Do you think so? Nothing like the States for me, all Cummings is guilty of is masterminding the Brexit vote, and delivering the largest Conservative majority for years, all the noise is from the left, who are imo once again misjudging public feeling with numerous cries of whataboutery especially regarding things that have nothing in common with Cummings circumstances (funerals for example).

All I see over the last few years is the 'right' falling to the same basement of the 'left'. The double standards of the sides of British politics over the last few years is not extraordinary by any means, but I am so ashamed of it.

A democracy surely shouldn't have a side assuming carte blanch to ignore all criticism; "the public doesn't care".
If you keep telling the people that they shouldn't care, then... I'm sure I've seen this somewhere else... :-X

The issue of the 'right' here is you don't accept that it is wrong to be doing this! The same valid accusations, when correctly levelled at the 'left', are indefensible and they rightly acknowledge it is wrong and suffer for it. Why does this principle suddenly not apply to the 'right'?

I get it - you don't like the questions. But don't end up looking like you resent the clamour for accountability. You don't get to silence them, no matter which side you want to stand on.

I worry that the current executive will crumble increasingly swiftly - it was surely much better to eject this troublemaker than to keep having him conduct problems while in power. How long until those further down the blue pecking order realise this?



They're playing the man and the policy with a straight bat. Today's briefing was clear: stick to the rules; while reiterating over and over again that DC did.

I can't believe how I never noticed the cricket connection before (hi Liam). :-X ;D

In any case, I do wonder how many people will have been made quite angry at being told they didn't quite understand the "rules" properly, despite being told prior that they were very clear indeed (when challenged). But I've addressed the gobsmacking communication deficiencies earlier in this thread - this here is solely devoted to poking the evident duplicity in government.

Do you think many more people will now feel emboldened to do what they feel like in spite of these "rules"? I'm still not quite sure, despite having read so much, how this occurrence can be defended. None other than the Prime Minister said as an address on TV, without caveat, "You should not be meeting family members who do not live in your home."

Members of government have defended him as in a somehow impossible position such that it was essential for them to make that journey on behalf of their child. How many people in this country at the time, in the same situation, do you genuinely think would've thought this was acceptable?

Furthermore, I believe a quote from today's briefing was, "if you're symptomatic: you stay at home, take yourself out of society as quickly as you can with your family and stay there, unless there is extreme risk to life". Is it just me, or does this not do the situation any favours? The original guidance also says to stay at home and only mentions elderly/vulnerable folk to be moved to stay with others.

For all the "clear" briefings in the world - why is this so defendable to so many people?



It will be a different story if the allegations in today's papers turn out to be true (although they have already denied them).

We will see. Knowing full well the despicable methods of media reporting, you must still appreciate how they purposefully sat on this next chapter in order to have the government say what they have done, leading to them only being able to deny the forthcoming story.




Is this part of the Beeching reversal, I don't now a great deal about trains, but if it is, it was promised in the election campaign.

Sadly, I worry that I will perish before trains become popular again. ;D


It isn't necessarily a bad thing and I was responding to CBB's post in good faith, what is a concern it the manner of this supposed holding to account, it's not based in any sort of evidence or fact, just a series of headline grabbing accusations, demands for apologies that they are never going to make or 'gotcha's' as they've been described by other posters.

I suppose this sums up what this post is about. Investigative journalism is a difficult practice but is absolutely essential to uncover what may have never been known. I can absolutely understand the prohibitive thrash which outnumbers and often accompanies this under the banner of red-top pieces of rubbish. However, this is not a problem unique to the right; you're now seeing the major issue with populism as it occurs allover - when they're in power, they hate only one thing more than apologising: accountability.

And so, they suddenly stop being populists and become the worst type of 'elite' that they had professed to be so against.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3161 on: Yesterday at 08:57:25 AM »
I do now think with additional revelations, Cummins now has to go, Tory MPs are now coming out and saying he should go, I think that leaves his position untenable.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3162 on: Yesterday at 09:01:48 AM »
ERG Chairman Steve Baker saying Cummings should go, they do have history so it's not entirely surprising he's the first to put his head above the parapet. Will be interesting to see what Shapps says on Marr imminently, as whatever he says will be the government line.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3163 on: Yesterday at 09:03:39 AM »
What he did was wrong,it's as simple as that.
Too much pressure for Boris to ignore this situation and for all the support from ministers for Cummings he's toast.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3164 on: Yesterday at 09:34:25 AM »
I thought this was the coronavirus topic not the Dominic Cummings topic!? Getting very political on here again some of you will be happy when this topic gets removed you have had enough warnings  but just ignore the mods.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3165 on: Yesterday at 09:45:21 AM »
The big issue for Cummings is that he was the mastermind behind the referendum and returning the largest Tory majority in years - it is no surprise that he has been hounded from the losers of those votes since he became Boris chief advisor.

Whether he broke the lockdown is a contentious issue. I don’t particularly care whether he did or did not. Furthermore, I think large swathes of the population will not care either. The population want to know when normal life is returning, not whether some man that most the country won’t recognise is going to be sacked or not.

There is a decision for Boris about whether they try and drown this out and take a couple of days in the rough grass or sack his advisor to try and promote some goodwill. With a stinking majority, I don’t see him going anytime soon.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3166 on: Yesterday at 09:48:48 AM »
Political Cake is right about populists, they are usually people who have always wanted to be part of the elite, and felt it was their right to be at the top table, but for whatever reason were excluded.  Probably goes right back to their private educations where the bigger boys sneered at their stamp collections or stamped on them at rugger or whatever.

It is relevant to the virus because their response has been informed by their "outsider genius" thinking getting mixed up with actually have to do something very difficult and technical, so they can never just go on telly and say this is awful we are struggling, they have to pretend they are on top of it all the time, by waffling about "world beating tests" and suchlike.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3167 on: Yesterday at 09:57:33 AM »
The big issue for Cummings is that he was the mastermind behind the referendum and returning the largest Tory majority in years - it is no surprise that he has been hounded from the losers of those votes since he became Boris chief advisor.

Whether he broke the lockdown is a contentious issue. I don’t particularly care whether he did or did not. Furthermore, I think large swathes of the population will not care either. The population want to know when normal life is returning, not whether some man that most the country won’t recognise is going to be sacked or not.

There is a decision for Boris about whether they try and drown this out and take a couple of days in the rough grass or sack his advisor to try and promote some goodwill. With a stinking majority, I don’t see him going anytime soon.

It is obvious that anyone in sympathy with this government and what it was elected on will be more likely to say "oh, so what" and those from the "other side" will be calling for his head, but if everyone who had some slight danger of serious illness or potential death in the family because of lack of family help (which is basically his claim) then the roads would have been full all the time.

I freely admit I don't like what he stands for and want him gone, and if he is the man I think he is he will write a scabrous book about the last few years where he admits he despises the working classes and also admits he hates Tories.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3168 on: Yesterday at 09:58:27 AM »
MoreTory MP’s now saying similar to this

Sir Roger Gale MP
@SirRogerGale
·
3m
While as a father and as a grandfather I fully appreciate Mr Cummings’ desire to protect his child. There cannot be one law for the Prime Minister’s staff and another for everyone else. He has sent out completely the wrong message and his position is no longer tenable.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3169 on: Yesterday at 10:05:03 AM »
The important voice this morning is Shapps, he's toeing the line. 5 MPs and counting out of 365 isn't a major issue.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3170 on: Yesterday at 10:05:59 AM »
I thought this was the coronavirus topic not the Dominic Cummings topic!? Getting very political on here again some of you will be happy when this topic gets removed you have had enough warnings  but just ignore the mods.

Thanks Keith.

We’re monitoring this closely as unfortunately the two are inextricably linked.

The second posters turn this personal then posts, topics (and members) may go.

The warning is there folks.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3171 on: Yesterday at 10:11:44 AM »
The important voice this morning is Shapps, he's toeing the line. 5 MPs and counting out of 365 isn't a major issue.
It is more a case of what they are saying e.g


Damian Collins
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Dominic Cummings has a track record of believing that the rules don’t apply to him and treating the scrutiny that should come to anyone in a position of authority with contempt. The government would be better without him
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3172 on: Yesterday at 10:17:59 AM »
I await Sajid Javid's contribution after Cummings forced him out

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3173 on: Yesterday at 10:18:16 AM »
The ones publicly denouncing Cummings are those who have a personal history with him - Baker, Collins et al

I think the Government/Boris should have came out yesterday and said “Sorry, he broke the rules but there was a legitimate reason. We’ve given him a slap on the knuckles” and showed a bit of humility. We may have been able to move om

The continued dancing round this subject for a week is not what we need.
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3174 on: Yesterday at 10:19:14 AM »
Thanks Keith.

We’re monitoring this closely as unfortunately the two are inextricably linked.

The second posters turn this personal then posts, topics (and members) may go.

The warning is there folks.
Ok Liam not trying to do your job! But i would hate to see this topic go as some members put some really good links and other information on about the coronavirus.