West Brom Dot Com

Author Topic: 3 Aug 2019 N Forest 1 Albion 2  (Read 11057 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aussie Baggie

  • Youth Baggie
  • ***
  • Posts: 709
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #275 on: August 03, 2019, 11:44:28 PM »
Sorry guys but I’ll hop on the Livermore out bandwagon. I thought he was by far our worst player. Every time he got the ball even if he didn’t lose it, he didn’t look comfortable.

There was a really poor pass towards the end that almost cost us a goal, my Under 10s side wouldn’t have done that.

It is amazing now that at least four managers have continued to select him. Pulis, Pardew, Moore and now Bilic seem to think he’s worth starting. Is it because he’s an ex-England player or that he’s normally captain when Brunt’s not playing?

I thought everyone else did well though and it’s great to start with an away win.

Offline skyclad99

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 2112
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #276 on: August 04, 2019, 12:52:10 AM »
So the actual evidence means nothing then.  "Worst by far".  I'd encourage you to check the stats out, they're quite in depth and really interesting to see how we actually set up and how Forest approached it.  Whoscored.com it is.  I mean that from a general, they actually are interesting and show heat maps, etc.

Some interesting things... livermore made the most attempted tackles and made the most tackles (joint). He's doing his job as DM.  He made just as many passes in the opposition half as his own.  Sawyers did a better job at controlling the game with the ball than Livermore but Livermore put the tackles in.  Bartley rarely moves apparently.

 I'm not saying he's amazing, I just dont think he's as bad as some people make it out.  How many managers have now picked him? Are they all wrong?  Do we trust in Bilic's judgement when it comes to picking youth but not when picking Livermore.  It's a new season, would be nice if we didn't get on his back right away.

A very sensible post. Well said👍
What have we done?
And what have we become
In this distance from our Mother
From the gates of late Eden?

Offline Hull Baggie

  • Global Moderator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #277 on: August 05, 2019, 06:54:42 AM »
Thought we were very slow to start and conceded a very soft goal, Johnstone should have had that all day long.

Gradually we started to click and Edwards took his goal well, great movement and quick feet.

Once we had equalised I think we pretty much controlled the game. Phillip's goal might have been a fluke but we deserved it on general play.

Thought we lacked a bit of intent in the second half but Forest were quite poor and created next to nothing.

Disappointed with Zohore but we didn't really give him anything to show his pace and strength so can't judge him too harshly.

I'd have to agree with others that Livermore is looking like the weak link. He was generally okay with his short passing but his attempts at long passes usually ended up with Forest having the ball. I'd expect that Ajayi will be next to Sawyers once Hegazi is fit (or we sign another CB).

Obviously happy with the result and the performance. Good start to the season, plenty of promise and if we can get the Players in that Bilic wants then I think we will be in for a very good season.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline NJS

  • Junior Baggie
  • **
  • Posts: 154
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #278 on: August 05, 2019, 09:14:18 AM »
Defensively I thought we were good - both Bartley and Ajayi - when they were bombarding us with crosses in the last 10-15 mins.  Bartley is weaker when on the left of the two CBs but didn't have a bad game.  Given that we expect Hegazi to return, I would spend whatever money we have to spend on a target centre forward as Zohore does not convince me as someone who can hold the ball - although we might not have been playing to his strengths.  I thought he looked mobile.

Enjoyed the midfield play from the Albion but bear in mind that we won through two freakish kind of goals.

I'm not convinced by Burke as a centre forward.  He needs a chance on the wing - possibly coming on after 60 mins for Phillips who needs looking after.

As for pass completion stats.  My experience was that it was easier to pass to you own players if you were only going sideways or backwards.  This is why outfits like Brentford study far more detailed data sets when looking for bargains.  Livermore's on to break up play, if he did that then he did his job.  Does anybody think that Harper or Sawyers is that type of player?
Hales Owen born.  "No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude."  Karl Popper
"You can be so irrational at times." Mrs NJS

Offline The Black Pearl

  • WBA Coach
  • ******
  • Posts: 7102
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #279 on: August 05, 2019, 09:21:35 AM »
Here's an idea, how about we give all the players, including Livermore a chance to get used to new systems before we judge anyone, Livermore is an England international who generally played okay for England when played, I'm not his biggest fan, but to judge anyone at the moment is just unfair, overall, I was surprised how well we defended.
Notes from a small island!

Offline AlbionFan

  • Site Donator
  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2945
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #280 on: August 05, 2019, 10:31:22 AM »
If you "throw enough mud" or "heap enough praise" theory is alive and kicking still.

Personally, I'm happy to go along with Slavens team selections, as he is eminently more qualified and knows more about his players than any member of this forum.
 
But yes, I do often question a players commitment and performances and if a player isn't my "cup of tea" then I will offer what I consider to be a constructive and a fair and reasonable level of criticism and opinion on him. I also like to exercise a degree of giving others the "benefit of the doubt", which I know is a novelty these days and not always a popular view, particularly in football.

However, there is a constant undercurrent of obsession and fixation, not only of selected current players but which extends to former employees. Personally, I'm only interested in Albion and have, in most instances, little or no interest in what former employees do when they leave us.
“We create success or failure on the pitch primarily by our thoughts.”

Offline skyclad99

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 2112
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #281 on: August 05, 2019, 10:38:44 AM »
Here's an idea, how about we give all the players, including Livermore a chance to get used to new systems before we judge anyone, Livermore is an England international who generally played okay for England when played, I'm not his biggest fan, but to judge anyone at the moment is just unfair, overall, I was surprised how well we defended.

My thoughts entirely Pearl. For our first competitve outing I thought we looked quite good after the intial 20 minutes. There are several new faces in the team and they need a chance to get used to their colleagues and Slav's way of playing. I am reserving judgement on all of our team for the first six games, If we can see areas of improvement then I am sure Slaven can see them as well. He has already alluded to our firepower issue up front, so for me its a case of 'lets wait and see'.

I for one am very happy with our transformation to date.......... 
What have we done?
And what have we become
In this distance from our Mother
From the gates of late Eden?

Offline mulliganstired

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3914
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #282 on: August 05, 2019, 10:55:03 AM »
Livermore seems to have become the new hate figure, I feel sorry for him, he went from Pulis trying to turn him into a cement mixer to Moore/Jones having him receive the ball facing our goal in no man's land, he's a decent player and over a long winter if he screens the back four he'll have done his job.

Offline SmethDan

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4302
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #283 on: August 05, 2019, 12:37:03 PM »
Honestly don't understand a lot of the plaudits to have gone Kyle Bartley's way. Recovered from his back turning sugar plumb fairy in the air attempt at closing Cash down to have a reasonable game, nothing more than that. One of perhaps five or six decent performances during his time with us. The attempt to close down summed him up perfectly for me though. Casual. The slight deflection off his hanging leg did a wrong footed and slow to dive Johnstone no favours, a sloppy and entirely avoidable goal. I genuinely think they were both anticipating a cross and neither covered themselves in glory.

On the other hand I felt Nathan Ferguson and Romaine Sawyers had superb first team debuts, Krovinovic continues to impress and Ajayi looks a real bargain. Wrong footed a couple of times but recovered well, I wouldn't be averse to seeing him in midfield. Livermore's distribution was off at times and he clearly felt the pace but he was nowhere near as bad as suggested on the in game thread. Zohore needs games to get in his stride but I think he'll offer us the physical strength up front that we lacked for much of last season. I'm just hoping he's more consistent (good consistent) than HRK.

Overall greatly encouraged for the season ahead but we need mobile options to make the most of Krovinovic's quick feet and football brain. Super Slaven's Barmy Army. Over to you Messrs Dowling and Jenkins.
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
If you don't know how to use them, they will never be enough.
Oh, and always remember to defecate on those Vile chaps in claret and spew.

Offline Hull Baggie

  • Global Moderator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #284 on: August 05, 2019, 12:45:38 PM »
Here's an idea, how about we give all the players, including Livermore a chance to get used to new systems before we judge anyone, Livermore is an England international who generally played okay for England when played, I'm not his biggest fan, but to judge anyone at the moment is just unfair, overall, I was surprised how well we defended.

This is the after match debate section though...what are we supposed to debate if not players performances?
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline LiamTheBaggie

  • @westbromcom
  • Global Moderator
  • WBA Manager
  • *****
  • Posts: 12231
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #285 on: August 05, 2019, 01:09:11 PM »
Really pleased and bodes well for the rest of the season.

Apart from a 15 minute spell at the start of the game, we more or less controlled the whole game.

Probably one of our better performances in the last few years.

Sawyers was excellent and it is refreshing to have a proper central midfielder who has many attributes to his game.

Ferguson had an excellent debut - he looked like he has been around for years.

Zohore looks like a useful addition but it was painfully obvious that he will require some support.

Krov also looks a very good footballer - always seemed to want the ball which is refreshing for our midfield.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Follow WestBrom.com on twitter - https://twitter.com/WestBromcom

Offline skyclad99

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 2112
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #286 on: August 05, 2019, 01:39:43 PM »
This is the after match debate section though...what are we supposed to debate if not players performances?

The majority of the posts are constructive, and you are right Hull. Smethdan's recent post is a good example, including constructive critiscm of Jake. Personally I really don't see the point of coming on and saying ' Livermore was cr*p' without anything else.

I think some posters just dont like the guy full stop. I would love him to bang a couple in next game just to read the posts....... 

What have we done?
And what have we become
In this distance from our Mother
From the gates of late Eden?

Offline Hull Baggie

  • Global Moderator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #287 on: August 05, 2019, 02:09:12 PM »
The majority of the posts are constructive, and you are right Hull. Smethdan's recent post is a good example, including constructive critiscm of Jake. Personally I really don't see the point of coming on and saying ' Livermore was cr*p' without anything else.

I think some posters just dont like the guy full stop. I would love him to bang a couple in next game just to read the posts.......

 It was more the "lets wait for a few games before we criticise players" comment I was responding to. Of course you are right, constructive criticism is always welcome.
I have some sympathy with the opinion that Livermore is being made into the fall guy by some posters but I felt he was the weak link on Saturday, he seemed to give the ball away a lot when attempting anything other than a short backwards/sideways pass.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Online WBArgo

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #288 on: August 05, 2019, 02:31:54 PM »
It was more the "lets wait for a few games before we criticise players" comment I was responding to. Of course you are right, constructive criticism is always welcome.
I have some sympathy with the opinion that Livermore is being made into the fall guy by some posters but I felt he was the weak link on Saturday, he seemed to give the ball away a lot when attempting anything other than a short backwards/sideways pass.

This is my main gripe with him ever since he's arrived here. I'm sure his stats show he's a great passer but the ball almost never goes forward with his passes and he is too risk averse in that sense. I think he would make a fine substitute but I feel the criticism is mostly warranted.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline Atomic

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3221
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #289 on: August 05, 2019, 02:37:29 PM »
Livermore and Bartley are weak links, end of. We can discuss it non stop pro's and con's 24/7 for two weeks if we like, end result is still the same. I don't care if Livermore has played for England or how many managers pick him (he must be bloody awesome in training) - he should not be first choice in our starting line up.

Offline SmethDan

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4302
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #290 on: August 05, 2019, 02:43:12 PM »
And Dwight Gayle should never have been played on the left, all about opinions ay it  ;) ?
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
If you don't know how to use them, they will never be enough.
Oh, and always remember to defecate on those Vile chaps in claret and spew.

Offline elkiellis

  • Youth Baggie
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #291 on: August 05, 2019, 08:12:55 PM »
Good performance this better result than I was expecting.
Ferguson awesome,Sawyers,Kronivic and Edwards all very good too.
Johnstone,bond needs to be given a chance now.
Bartley should not even be in the Squad.
Livermore as above.
Zohore too early to say.
Burke is not the answer especially upfront.

Offline Droitwich Baggie

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5876
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #292 on: August 05, 2019, 09:16:22 PM »
When we went a goal down, I felt the worst.
SJ gives me an uneasy feeling.
He seems OK with direct body area shots, but his positioning certainly needs improving.
Several of his later goal kicks went straight out of the field.
As I said at the time, he should look to pass to a closer player who can take it further.
Happy with the final result of course, and that is what will count at the end of the day.
Good start, lads.

Offline Wbamitch

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 2184
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #293 on: August 09, 2019, 04:38:02 PM »
It's been years since I have posted after taking a bit of a break, started back up last season and it didn't take long to get the bug back. Kept an eye on the forum last season but didn't post, back to my old habits of replying well after the match.

It was a concerning opening to the game with what I feared handing Forest the initiative, concerning is probably a fitting word I would use for Johnstone. I was extremely disappointed with the goal and it's a familiar pattern with him that has been mentioned several times on this topic.

Of course a couple of fortunate goals to take the lead and from that point we always looked In control, there were times when we did retreat and we perhaps could have been more been more potent in attack but the game looked ours and we saw it out relatively comfortably.

Performances were celebrated of a few new players coming into the side both from our youth and new players, Ferguson, Edwards and Krovonivic, Sawyers. One thing I also take out from that game is that Burke simply cannot be an option as a Striker.

Offline Atomic

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3221
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #294 on: August 09, 2019, 04:49:21 PM »
It's been years since I have posted after taking a bit of a break, started back up last season and it didn't take long to get the bug back. Kept an eye on the forum last season but didn't post, back to my old habits of replying well after the match.

It was a concerning opening to the game with what I feared handing Forest the initiative, concerning is probably a fitting word I would use for Johnstone. I was extremely disappointed with the goal and it's a familiar pattern with him that has been mentioned several times on this topic.

Of course a couple of fortunate goals to take the lead and from that point we always looked In control, there were times when we did retreat and we perhaps could have been more been more potent in attack but the game looked ours and we saw it out relatively comfortably.

Performances were celebrated of a few new players coming into the side both from our youth and new players, Ferguson, Edwards and Krovonivic, Sawyers. One thing I also take out from that game is that Burke simply cannot be an option as a Striker.


Welcome back Mitch.

I put Bartley equally to blame for the goal. His body shape was wrong, didn't adjust and was way too passive in his attempt (if that is the right word) to close the man down. All he has to do there is form a barrier, makes nothing more than a camp attempt with his body shape side on. Grow some balls and get in the way man!

Yep, Johnstone should've saved it though.

Offline boinging_along

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3068
Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #295 on: August 09, 2019, 04:56:59 PM »
It was 3 errors really. 
Edwards(?) let his man run off him into the space and was too slow getting back.
Bartley failed to close down and do anything to put the Forest player off.
Johnstone is less mobile that the average bingo goer.  That should be a comfortable save.