Author Topic: Louie Barry  (Read 21644 times)

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KN22

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #200 on: January 08, 2020, 12:47:09 PM »
Like many others on here I am not happy about this. These things happen however and I also feel that the fact he is a Villa fan (if true) has little or nothing to do with what looks like is going to happen.

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #201 on: January 08, 2020, 01:01:58 PM »
Oh my days  :-X .
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #202 on: January 08, 2020, 01:11:31 PM »
I think the conspiracy theories fall down when you consider the fee Villa are paying now (either £1.5 million or £3 million depending on who you believe), is still more than they would have been expected to pay under the EPPP.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/41839083

In that link you get the compensation figures. I think there are exceptions where you can push for tribunal but the beat we could gave hoped for realistically was about a million quid as he was at the stage in his contract where he could sign for whoever he wanted.

Look at Rodgers - even with us having  him tied down to a 2 year scholarship, we still had to accept £4 million for him which was enhanced due to him having featured for our first team.

The annoyance from Albion's side is more likely down to the fact that they believe Barca were always planning to move him for a profit at some stage and that was their real motive for signing him. Barry was just an easy chance to make a profit for them.

That's why for me, we need to change the youth football comoensation scheme and make it so up front fees are less, but fees for development are increased after (ie, sell on fees and add ons for first team appearances/international caps etc.

On the whole, inthink our reaction as fans has been a bit OTT in some quarters, and that's coming from me who is p***** off by our academy constantly being raided.
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #203 on: January 08, 2020, 02:52:05 PM »
Conspiracy theory is rubbish.

Barry was signing elsewhere before Barca and then he changed his mind last minute. The lad controlled his destiny. Villa have just taken advantage of the deal and clearly know there is a release clause. Harrison was an excellent academy manager and knew all players very very well.
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #204 on: January 08, 2020, 04:38:29 PM »
I don't wish him a horrible injury, but I do hope he ends up in the unibond south league on 200 quid a week and gets embarrassed looks when he drones on about having been a Barca junior

sconesy

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #205 on: January 08, 2020, 11:11:07 PM »
Taken in a few comments on Barry; the most recent have made the most logical sense though. There is (IMHO) a fairly straightforward question about the whole dealing.....”is it ‘legal’ ethical’ to enter into a negotiation to sell a player/asset that you do not fully own due to your failure to complete or adhere to the financial obligation/s you agreed too with the owner”? Surely logic dictates that WBA...based on these circumstances alone, have staggering legal grounds? Unless of course we’ve only been spoon fed some of the truth!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 11:15:47 PM by sconesy »

KN22

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #206 on: January 09, 2020, 12:56:24 PM »
Taken in a few comments on Barry; the most recent have made the most logical sense though. There is (IMHO) a fairly straightforward question about the whole dealing.....”is it ‘legal’ ethical’ to enter into a negotiation to sell a player/asset that you do not fully own due to your failure to complete or adhere to the financial obligation/s you agreed too with the owner”? Surely logic dictates that WBA...based on these circumstances alone, have staggering legal grounds? Unless of course we’ve only been spoon fed some of the truth!


This would be 100% the case in any other industry. This is football however so who knows??

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #207 on: January 09, 2020, 01:21:03 PM »
Taken in a few comments on Barry; the most recent have made the most logical sense though. There is (IMHO) a fairly straightforward question about the whole dealing.....”is it ‘legal’ ethical’ to enter into a negotiation to sell a player/asset that you do not fully own due to your failure to complete or adhere to the financial obligation/s you agreed too with the owner”? Surely logic dictates that WBA...based on these circumstances alone, have staggering legal grounds? Unless of course we’ve only been spoon fed some of the truth!

Although laws are heavily influenced by morality and ethics, they are also a world apart.

As I've mentioned earlier too, Barca are unlikely to have any financial obligations to us directly either, as they agreed nothing with us.  Their obligation is via UEFA I believe, so we are probably reliant on UEFA threatening sanctions to force Barca to actually pay us.

I'm not sure it would be any different in another industry if it was direct either. If i take possession of something from you for an agreed price, I owe you an amount and that is now what I think the law would be concerned with. I dont know how much the item itself has much relevance anymore. If I decide the only way to pay that debt is to sell that possession, I dont think the law would care.

The fact the value has gone up substantially and that's how I pay is irrelevant i think. It might not be 'ethical' but I am almost certain it is not illegal.  Obviously most things depreciate rather than increase so its a fairly rare event anyway. Other than for houses, which increase in value and are sold with lots of outstanding debt all the time.

I might have a civil claim for interest on the amount you owed, but that probably isnt worth the legal expenses.






« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 01:26:09 PM by johnny Cash »

NJS

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #208 on: January 09, 2020, 01:55:41 PM »
  Their obligation is via UEFA I believe, so we are probably reliant on UEFA threatening sanctions to force Barca to actually pay us.


I can just see that working.  UEFA probably is more frightened of Barca threatening to play in China.
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #209 on: January 09, 2020, 08:38:19 PM »
West Brom threatening to sue Aston Villa over £3million Louie Barry transfer

I hope we take them to the cleaners, but I doubt we will get anything

Source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/west-brom-threatening-sue-aston-21248501
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #210 on: January 09, 2020, 09:12:58 PM »
West Brom threatening to sue Aston Villa over £3million Louie Barry transfer

I hope we take them to the cleaners, but I doubt we will get anything

Source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/west-brom-threatening-sue-aston-21248501

To be honest it’s not immediately apparent what Aston Villa have done wrong. For me the issue is with Barcelona.

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #211 on: January 09, 2020, 09:51:15 PM »

This would be 100% the case in any other industry. This is football however so who knows??

No, it’s not a “Sale of Goods Act” issue. He’s Barcelona’s to sell,  and what they owe to us remains a separate contractual issue.  If Barcelona sell him to Villa the situation remains the same - we continue to have a claim against Barcelona for what is owed under the original contract between us and them.

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #212 on: January 09, 2020, 10:41:58 PM »
No, it’s not a “Sale of Goods Act” issue. He’s Barcelona’s to sell,  and what they owe to us remains a separate contractual issue.  If Barcelona sell him to Villa the situation remains the same - we continue to have a claim against Barcelona for what is owed under the original contract between us and them.

We don't have any contract with Barcelona.

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #213 on: January 09, 2020, 11:14:05 PM »
To be honest it’s not immediately apparent what Aston Villa have done wrong.

Err.....
They still exist? ;)

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #214 on: January 10, 2020, 05:38:33 AM »
West Brom threatening to sue Aston Villa over £3million Louie Barry transfer

I hope we take them to the cleaners, but I doubt we will get anything

Source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/west-brom-threatening-sue-aston-21248501

To be honest, anything that highlights this loophole and potentially gets it into the media is a good thing as it may put pressure onto the authorities to find a way to stop it from happening more often.

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #215 on: January 10, 2020, 06:36:37 AM »
Difficult to see where vile have done anything wrong unless a it can be proven that Harrison has had any underhand dealings with Barry going to Barca and back to vile.
Can't see how that could be proven
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #216 on: January 10, 2020, 11:17:06 AM »
Difficult to see where vile have done anything wrong unless a it can be proven that Harrison has had any underhand dealings with Barry going to Barca and back to vile.
Can't see how that could be proven

It's highly likely that Harrison had a clause in his contract to prevent any knowledge he had accumulated at WBA (particularly about players) being used to his new employers' advantage.
I would imagine it's that clause which is being examined by our law team.
So the law suite would be against Harrison, not necessarily Villa.

As far as Barca are concerned, in any normal transaction, ownership of goods is not transferred until full payment has been made. If that's the case here, then (if we have not been paid) we still own Barry & he's not Barcas to sell.

On the other hand if Barry was a free agent & the payment from Barca was to compensate our development costs for him, then the ownership issue does not arise.
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #217 on: January 10, 2020, 11:33:55 AM »
West Brom threatening to sue Aston Villa over £3million Louie Barry transfer

I hope we take them to the cleaners, but I doubt we will get anything

Source: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/west-brom-threatening-sue-aston-21248501

Actually, contrary to my previous post regarding an unfortunate sequence of events, I have now come to the conclusion that this stinks like a bucket of fish...….
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #218 on: January 10, 2020, 11:48:46 AM »
It's highly likely that Harrison had a clause in his contract to prevent any knowledge he had accumulated at WBA (particularly about players) being used to his new employers' advantage.
I would imagine it's that clause which is being examined by our law team.
So the law suite would be against Harrison, not necessarily Villa.

As far as Barca are concerned, in any normal transaction, ownership of goods is not transferred until full payment has been made. If that's the case here, then (if we have not been paid) we still own Barry & he's not Barcas to sell.

On the other hand if Barry was a free agent & the payment from Barca was to compensate our development costs for him, then the ownership issue does not arise.

I doubt this is the case - otherwise Harrison would never find work again. You're basically saying any knowledge of players he has from his Albion days are off limits. That could be hundreds.

More likely that there something written in that he unable to approach any of our academy players in a x month period after leaving, even so it wouldn't be applicable in this situation given hes a Barcelona player.

I'm not sure what, if any, grounds they have against Villa unless they have some glaringly obvious evidence that the whole Barca move was someone manufactured by Harrison/Villa which I think is unlikely.

Unfortunately this is one I think we have to chalk up to the pitfalls of having a good academy in a time where academy development isn't valued contractually. Hopefully making this like this public help changing the rulings to protect football clubs like us.
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #219 on: January 10, 2020, 12:21:44 PM »
There is an athletic article out today about us and academy players, seems to be specifically about our incentive to bother when they can be plucked away.

Can anyone share it?

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #220 on: January 10, 2020, 12:27:43 PM »
Reminds me of stories of estate agents selling repossessed or left by the deceased houses to their mates at knock down prices in return for a "brown envelope".  Illegal and unethical.

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #221 on: January 10, 2020, 04:32:09 PM »
I doubt this is the case - otherwise Harrison would never find work again. You're basically saying any knowledge of players he has from his Albion days are off limits. That could be hundreds.

More likely that there something written in that he unable to approach any of our academy players in a x month period after leaving, even so it wouldn't be applicable in this situation given hes a Barcelona player.


I'm not sure what, if any, grounds they have against Villa unless they have some glaringly obvious evidence that the whole Barca move was someone manufactured by Harrison/Villa which I think is unlikely.

Unfortunately this is one I think we have to chalk up to the pitfalls of having a good academy in a time where academy development isn't valued contractually. Hopefully making this like this public help changing the rulings to protect football clubs like us.

It's a pretty universally used clause in senior management contracts,  but you are correct in saying there are time limits (usually around 12 months). i believe it's something to do with intellectual property laws, (For example! inventions belong to the business not the employee)
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #222 on: January 10, 2020, 08:52:56 PM »
To be honest it’s not immediately apparent what Aston Villa have done wrong. For me the issue is with Barcelona.

I agree with this. Barcelona should have stumped up the monies and ended this saga
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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #223 on: January 11, 2020, 09:55:58 AM »
There is an athletic article out today about us and academy players, seems to be specifically about our incentive to bother when they can be plucked away.

Can anyone share it?

While West Bromwich Albion seethe quietly about Louie Barry’s circuitous 2,000-mile journey to move three miles away to Aston Villa, the next contract saga involving a Hawthorns youngster could be just around the corner.

Rico Richards, a 16-year-old striker named on the bench for the first time last weekend for the FA Cup win over Charlton Athletic, is the next teenager who could walk away from Albion for a pittance before signing a professional contract.

And if it is not Richards, it will be someone else. That is because the rules governing transfers for young players as they currently stand give clubs such as Albion no protection against cut-price exits and, crucially, little incentive to invest in developing young talent.

The anger within West Brom’s hierarchy surrounding Barry (pictured above) is easy to understand. The striker joined the club at the age of six and left at 16, having honed his game with the academy to such an extent he became one of the most prolific young goalscorers in the country at club and international level. That decade of development and nurturing will net Albion a maximum of £130,000 though — and this is if Barcelona eventually pay the compensation due. The cash has not yet been forthcoming.

Domestic rules prevented West Brom giving Barry a professional deal until his 17th birthday but international regulations allowed him to negotiate with overseas clubs in the meantime.

He spoke at length to Paris Saint-Germain before signing for Barcelona and now, after just six months in Spain, a homesick Barry is on his way back to the West Midlands to join Villa in a deal that will cost the Premier League club around £700,000 up front and could be worth as much as £3 million in the long run.

Villa — the club Barry’s family supports — had tried to land him several times during his decade at Albion but each time, he remained loyal. Now, they have got their (young) man for an initial figure much lower than they would have been ordered to pay by a tribunal had Barry joined directly from Albion last summer.

Those with links to the Barry camp insist none of the last six months was predetermined. They maintain the striker, who turns 17 this summer, resolved to leave after becoming disenchanted with Albion’s contract offers, made a move to Barcelona that was too tempting to resist, found himself unsettled, and jumped at the chance to join a club he has always supported and is a relative stone’s throw from his Sutton Coldfield home.

Albion, who had always predicted a swift return to England, are sceptical.

Either way, no one, from Barry, to his agents, to Barcelona, to Villa, have broken any rules. They have merely played the system and benefited as a result. Barry’s representatives will have earned nicely from the moves. And why not? They do not work for free. Barry will have accepted a healthy signing-on fee from Barcelona and used it to help his working-class family. And who can blame him? Barcelona will make a healthy profit for minimal risk while Villa get a player they have long coveted at a decent fee.

So everyone benefits from Barry’s moves — except the club that invested time, money and patience in his football education for 10 years.

The fact that this can happen completely within the rules suggests that those regulations need changing. It will not be easy. World governing body FIFA is in charge of the framework governing overseas transfers and, as an global organisation, has no interest in helping one nation. But for English football, the rules threaten to undo much of the positive work completed on youth development in recent years.

Speak to England manager Gareth Southgate or other senior figures within the national team set-up and they paint a bright picture of homegrown talent. There is little doubt English academies are producing better, more technically-sound players than they have done for several generations. Those outside the ‘big six’ clubs, however, will think long and hard about the wisdom of investing in youth development if players can leave for a pittance via brief stints overseas.

For Albion, a repeat is looming, with Richards’ situation poised to come to a head at the end of this season.

The 16-year-old is rated as better than Barry was at this stage of his development and has already attracted interest from huge clubs at home and abroad. Albion have offered him a professional deal which is available to sign when he turns 17 in September but The Athletic understands the parties are not yet close to an agreement on figures.

In any case, the club would struggle, even if it pushes the boat out, to match the kind of deals on offer at bigger, richer clubs. With the European route now becoming well-trodden, officials at The Hawthorns already fear the worst.

There are others in the system, too.

Several members of the team that beat Middlesbrough 4-1 in the fourth round of the FA Youth Cup on Tuesday are highly-rated within the club. They include centre-back Caleb Taylor, son of former Birmingham City defender Martin Taylor, forward Tom Fellows, who scored twice against Middlesbrough, and striker Jovan Malcolm, who has been a prolific goalscorer in his first year as a scholar.

The potential for anger at Albion and similar-sized clubs stretches well into the future unless some costly loopholes are closed.

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Re: Louie Barry
« Reply #224 on: January 11, 2020, 11:06:57 AM »
Cheers.

It appears when it comes to these kids we either need to put up, or shut up. I do wonder what the rate for Barry was though. It certainly seems reports of 30,40,50k are wide of the mark. Otherwise why would we have suspected he would always come back, and villa certainly wouldn’t be paying a 16 year old that.