Author Topic: Slaven Bilic  (Read 136326 times)

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Standaman

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #800 on: February 14, 2020, 08:43:50 AM »
Coaches make mistakes and as such draw criticism which is fair enough. Winning always mutes criticism whereas losing amplifiies it five fold.

 In general  my view is that too much of the burden of blame rests on the Head Coach's head. Plainly during the season the only thing a club can do to arrest a downturn in form is change the Head Coach, it is the only lever they have so it should be no surprise that clubs desperate to maintain or regain a league status pull that lever. Yet in many cases clubs cycle through coaches  sometimes at an alarming rate without really moving the dial.

The plain fact is football is a game which is subject to a huge degree of variance and no coach can ride the wave forever nor can they out perform the talent they have available over the long term. That is not to say coaches do not have an impact they dictate the style of play and work with players to make them better (this is the thing that does move the dial) although that process is neither instant nor does it always move in a straight line (players improve but in some instances also regress after an initial bounce)

Okay this is long winded of saying calling for a coach's dismissal on the back of a 7 game streak is bonkers particularly if that coach has a track record of success prior to that streak. In the Championship which is crazily competitive most teams will have a 7 game streak where they look like play-off contenders at least and one where they look more like relegation fodder. It is no surprise that Championship clubs turnover of managers is as brutal as it is.

Yet sticking with a coach does have a benefit if they are a good coach giving them a chance to work with a group of players reaps rewards in continuity we have seen this with Wilder, Farke and Frank all of whom have endured a poor 7 game streak. Bilic is a good coach he has earned the right to not be chased out of a club at the first sign of a downswing and the club might benefit from starting and finishing a season with the same Head Coach.



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seteefeet

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #801 on: February 14, 2020, 09:21:10 AM »
But criticism is only due when there is negligence, making the odd team selection error should be understood because we all make mistakes don't we? Bilic has made far more great team call than selection errors, if indeed they were errors, as the thing we never really know is the stuff behind the scenes, minor illness, family upsets, training ground arguments,etc, why should we, team selection including substitutions, is the managers responsibility, its only revealed one hour before kick off for several obvious reasons.
Whilst its okay to suggest we should play an alternative player, its foolish to criticise player selection and team performance levels using phrases like 'lost the dressing room" and suggesting Bilic's removal.
Lets not beat about the bush, Bilic is the best manager we have had since Hodgson, he is not perfect (neither is Hodgson who was often criticised for his pragmatism), we should be backing him 100% because he is a breath of fresh air and when we criticise him, show some respect for what he has done for us delivering an entertaining and attacking team that on the whole, are a joy to watch.
Does this mean, in your eyes, he has a job for life?
Sorry but it's absolute folly to suggest he is above criticism. What if we had lost the last 3, instead of won? We would now be sitting in 6th.
It's all well and good using hindsight, now that he has turned us around, but it is just that, hindsight. We had a bad run which warranted criticism, but, most of that criticism was to do with tactics, personnel, formation etc. which people who have been watching football for 30-40 years are more than capable of discussing, by the way, very little of it was actually suggesting Bilic should be sacked. As it turned out, he did what a lot were suggesting and tweaked the formation, freshened up the squad and it has worked.
Personally, I hope he is here for the long haul and creates a genuine legacy, because I really admire the man, but, make no bones about it, it is a results business and that will, ultimately, decide his fate, one way or the other. Continued success will mean he moves on to bigger things, failure will see him sacked.

boinging_along

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #802 on: February 14, 2020, 09:30:57 AM »
You don't think our downturn in form coincided with losing Diangana and Gibbs for extended periods?

seteefeet

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #803 on: February 14, 2020, 09:47:12 AM »
You don't think our downturn in form coincided with losing Diangana and Gibbs for extended periods?
Of course it did mate but that wouldn't have made any difference had the winless run continued.
Neither have played in the last 3, so the answer was always there, it just took a while, and a new signing to find it.
I never said he should have been sacked but, if he hadn't turned it around, he would have, that's football. Thankfully, he re-discovered the magic and we can all move on, hopefully to the title. Even then though, if I think he gets things wrong, I will be critical. As a fan of 40+ years, I have earned that right.

The Black Pearl

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #804 on: February 14, 2020, 10:38:05 AM »
You don't think our downturn in form coincided with losing Diangana and Gibbs for extended periods?

I didn't say he was beyond criticism, I said he should not be criticised unless his performance as a manager was negligent, clearly, too any fair minded person, it wasn't.
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seteefeet

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #805 on: February 14, 2020, 10:48:13 AM »
I didn't say he was beyond criticism, I said he should not be criticised unless his performance as a manager was negligent, clearly, too any fair minded person, it wasn't.
So, if a manager loses 20 games in a row but, in your mind is not negligent during that time, but merely a victim of circumstance, he should just be allowed to continue without being criticised?
I don't believe that to be fair minded.

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #806 on: February 14, 2020, 11:07:36 AM »
What I like about Bilic is that he reacts to how the game is going and  makes changes  - often they work but at least he has ideas.
We've had a coach whose Neolithic tactics produced a very defensive game which was unattractive to those watching and to those thinking about playing for the club.  We've had a coach who seemed paralysed by indecision and who only made substitutions upon an injury or too late to have an effect.  In my opinion Bilic suffers from neither of those faults and I think he should be allowed to get on with it.
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zippyandbungle

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #807 on: February 14, 2020, 11:14:09 AM »
What I like about Bilic is that he reacts to how the game is going and  makes changes  - often they work but at least he has ideas.
We've had a coach whose Neolithic tactics produced a very defensive game which was unattractive to those watching and to those thinking about playing for the club.  We've had a coach who seemed paralysed by indecision and who only made substitutions upon an injury or too late to have an effect.  In my opinion Bilic suffers from neither of those faults and I think he should be allowed to get on with it.
Pep, Mourinho,Klopp.....all still get criticism from time to time
There is no perfection, this is football.
Just because Bilić is better than others in your opinion does not mean that everybody should shut up and not speak if they feel they see something that doesn’t look right.
Btw when you see he reacts .....didn’t react to well at Barnsley when we were desperate for width.....he put Barry on and left Phillips and Edwards on the bench.....
I like billic, but let’s not pretend he is not human.
If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

boinging_along

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #808 on: February 14, 2020, 11:21:26 AM »
20 games in a row is quite excessive.  But, for example, if your squad comes down with a flu bug and you end up with half the squad out injured or suspended.  Do you blame the manager now he's had to resort to playing the U18's?  Sometimes the manager can do everything and you end up just waiting for your better players to come back.

For me, this run of bad form we had was down to a few things.  The fixture congestion over Christmas and the tiredness, the injuries and suspensions and the lack of a quality forward. 

It's not like Bilic was setting us up entirely wrong, and for the most part people agreed with the majority of the players picked.  He tried bringing Hegazi back in, and that didn't work so he took him back out.  We've had to persist with Townsend and O'Shea, who wouldn't be my first choice.  Biggest criticism you could aim is probably that we stuck with SJ in goal, but he's not been that awful lately.  What other line ups should have tried that would have fixed any perceived problems? 

It's not that he shouldn't be criticised at all, but that there were clear circumstances which were obviously going to affect the performance of the team. 

liverbaggie

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #809 on: February 14, 2020, 12:25:47 PM »
Progress not perfection is what we seek.
Quite profound from me that is.

johnny Cash

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #810 on: February 14, 2020, 02:40:01 PM »

For me, this run of bad form we had was down to a few things.  The fixture congestion over Christmas and the tiredness, the injuries and suspensions and the lack of a quality forward. 


Lack of a quality forward is the only one of the above I personally agree with. A decent forward may just have won us a game on his own and kick started out season. Maybe Austin could have done that though.

The rest i'm afraid didn't justify the run of form. Fixture congestion (and tiredness) are generally the same for everyone, so why get dispensation for that?

The same could be said of suspensions and injuries to a degree unless you have a particularly hard time of it (which we didnt). We had missed Gibbs for a decent stretch anyway and as for Diangana, if Bilic's ability as a manager is so reliant on him we really should be asking questions.

Suspensions - Pereira only missed one game of the poor spell I believe?

My reservations on Bilic are around his ability to organise a defence, and how well we will be able to perform when he doesn't have a vastly superior squad (which against 85% of the teams we will play this season)

Everyone wants him to succeed and only very few called for the chop but lets see how the next three games go before he is back to being untouchable.




mulliganstired

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #811 on: February 14, 2020, 02:57:01 PM »
I questioned the way he didn't seem to use the squad especially well during congested December, and I still think that a bit, but he stuck to his guns, brought in the right reinforcements and we have had the rub of the green back on our side - Luton's non-penalty for example- where we weren't getting it during the bad run.  Nowhere near job done though, I'm not even looking at threads with names like "who goes up with us" and "what position will we finish" etc etc, I'd take 2nd on GD with 80 points right now.

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #812 on: February 14, 2020, 03:28:19 PM »
When you think back to the black days of Pulis what Slav has done is, for me, nothing short of  miraculous. Would anyone have dared dream of being top of the league and six points clear this time last year? And playing some really exciting stuff?

The bloke has, quite simply, repaired my love for all things Baggies!

baggie82

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #813 on: February 14, 2020, 03:46:25 PM »
When you think back to the black days of Pulis what Slav has done is, for me, nothing short of  miraculous. Would anyone have dared dream of being top of the league and six points clear this time last year? And playing some really exciting stuff?

The bloke has, quite simply, repaired my love for all things Baggies!

Well said. He's been outstanding.

smethwickw

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #814 on: February 14, 2020, 04:06:13 PM »
I think that people are right to question team selection and tactics when things aren't going right however Bilic has done a fantastic job this season so far. Talk of him getting the sack a couple of weeks ago was unbelievable. I don't recall people questioning Mowbray during the Championship winning season despite the fact that we lost 11 games along the way.

beechyboy90

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #815 on: February 14, 2020, 06:36:34 PM »
What I like about Bilic is that he reacts to how the game is going and  makes changes  - often they work but at least he has ideas.
We've had a coach whose Neolithic tactics produced a very defensive game which was unattractive to those watching and to those thinking about playing for the club.  We've had a coach who seemed paralysed by indecision and who only made substitutions upon an injury or too late to have an effect.  In my opinion Bilic suffers from neither of those faults and I think he should be allowed to get on with it.

This made me laugh. "Neolithic" haha

But spot on
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paulosull

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #816 on: February 15, 2020, 03:21:58 PM »
Bilic needs to sort out that defence and its time changes are made keeper who is rooted to the spot on every cross needs a rollicking or dropping, Bartley is having a mare every game of late.

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #817 on: February 17, 2020, 12:31:10 AM »
Bilic needs to sort out that defence and its time changes are made keeper who is rooted to the spot on every cross needs a rollicking or dropping, Bartley is having a mare every game of late.

Dropping for who? Please don't suggest bond... there is a reason he is now about 26/27 and still a back up keeper, there is a reason he has spent his career getting loaned out and a reason he was free.

The way some people go on about dropping Johnstone, they must think Bilic is somehow going to get the next Neuer plucked out the academy!

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #818 on: February 17, 2020, 04:48:52 AM »
Dropping for who? Please don't suggest bond... there is a reason he is now about 26/27 and still a back up keeper, there is a reason he has spent his career getting loaned out and a reason he was free.

The way some people go on about dropping Johnstone, they must think Bilic is somehow going to get the next Neuer plucked out the academy!
Good post. If Sam Johnstone visits this forum, and social media, then he must feel totally alienated from the clubs supporters.
Some on here are looking to single out individuals for criticism, in every single game we play.Sure, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but bitter and unrelenting criticism of any player, is not welcome. Hopefully the players concerned will realise that there are over 20,000 of us at every home game and good numbers at every away game, the majority of whom will be fair in their assessment of the teams performance.
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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #819 on: February 17, 2020, 09:53:50 AM »
Dropping for who? Please don't suggest bond... there is a reason he is now about 26/27 and still a back up keeper, there is a reason he has spent his career getting loaned out and a reason he was free.

The way some people go on about dropping Johnstone, they must think Bilic is somehow going to get the next Neuer plucked out the academy!

 ikeep asking and no-one answers, What the hell is Al Habsi doing???  What are we paying for??
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mulliganstired

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #820 on: February 17, 2020, 10:56:54 AM »
ikeep asking and no-one answers, What the hell is Al Habsi doing???  What are we paying for??
That had occurred to me too, but I guess he's just backup backup.

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #821 on: February 17, 2020, 01:05:10 PM »
That had occurred to me too, but I guess he's just backup backup.

A backup backup goalkeeper for me should be a youth player. Bilic must really not rate the kids he has available.

Standaman

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #822 on: February 17, 2020, 01:20:33 PM »
A backup backup goalkeeper for me should be a youth player. Bilic must really not rate the kids he has available.

The only one of the "kids" anywhere near first team ready is Alex Palmer currently on loan at Plymouth and playing regularly. Probably more beneficial than sitting in the stands playing under 23 football and the occasional outing on the bench. People at the club are apparently quite excited about Josh Griffiths who is England's under 18 keeper and training with the 1st team group. 
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Hunnington Baggie

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #823 on: February 17, 2020, 01:21:27 PM »
A backup backup goalkeeper for me should be a youth player. Bilic must really not rate the kids he has available.
Palmer’s on loan, Griffiths and Cann are 18ish and ahead of Brad House while The likes of Pierce and Przybek are gone (not sure on Keranovic, he’s disappeared)

So no, GK is not the strongest position at this moment, both Cann and Griffiths especially are rated but is it wise to risk a 17 or 18 year old with no prior experience.

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Re: Slaven Bilic
« Reply #824 on: February 17, 2020, 01:31:39 PM »
Griffiths' distribution was awful when I saw him in the U23's. I'd say he's a good way off the first team.

Palmer will be 24 at the start of the new season, if he doesn't break through in the summer he never will. I have a feeling we will sell him to a lower league team.