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Offline OldburyWBA

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2019, 08:32:08 PM »

I think we'll be really struggling next year, IF Lai pulls the plug, ie. We don't spend the transfer fees we receive.


All 6 loanees will be returned. Despite what we think of them as players, Dawson, Rodriguez, Livermore, Gibbs and Hegazi won't fancy another year in the Championship. That's 11. Harper looks unlikely to re-sign, we'd be mad to offer Barry a new deal. Hollahan and Mears will also depart, that's 15.


That's a spine next year of Johnstone, Bartley, Field, Brunt and Kanu.


We're in big trouble if the next few weeks don't go our way, starting Tuesday.

And god help us if we do have that spine, a keeper who instills no confidence, a centre half who i'd rather forget we signed, an aging midfielder who's spent a season out of position and is a year older already with no pace and a non scoring striker.
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Offline Droitwich Baggie

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2019, 08:33:46 PM »
And god help us if we do have that spine, a keeper who instills no confidence, a centre half who i'd rather forget we signed, an aging midfielder who's spent a season out of position and is a year older already with no pace and a non scoring striker.
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Offline TheJacko2000

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2019, 08:34:15 PM »
And god help us if we do have that spine, a keeper who instills no confidence, a centre half who i'd rather forget we signed, an aging midfielder who's spent a season out of position and is a year older already with no pace and a non scoring striker.


You forgot to add youth team player who has shown nothing to suggest he's good enough for the division...  :-X
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Offline OldburyWBA

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2019, 08:37:26 PM »

You forgot to add youth team player who has shown nothing to suggest he's good enough for the division...  :-X

You mean the one who held his own in the Premier League, done his job when he's had the odd chance in this side but has seemingly been hung out to dry for some reason ?

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Offline gazberg

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2019, 08:48:59 PM »
At least we get Nyom back, thats right back solved!  :-X

Offline zippyandbungle

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2019, 08:58:18 PM »
At least we get Nyom back, thats right back solved!  :-X
Cue 20 posts asking “can he play Tuesday.”😂
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Offline zippyandbungle

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2019, 09:03:13 PM »

I think we'll be really struggling next year, IF Lai pulls the plug, ie. We don't spend the transfer fees we receive.


All 6 loanees will be returned. Despite what we think of them as players, Dawson, Rodriguez, Livermore, Gibbs and Hegazi won't fancy another year in the Championship. That's 11. Harper looks unlikely to re-sign, we'd be mad to offer Barry a new deal. Hollahan and Mears will also depart, that's 15.


That's a spine next year of Johnstone, Bartley, Field, Brunt and Kanu.


We're in big trouble if the next few weeks don't go our way, starting Tuesday.
We do occasionally disagree, but I think (if Ali does pull the plug) your assessment is spot on
The unknown quantity is the IF
What if he decides to have a go at it ?
Could it be that he didn’t want to let Moore spend the money , and some may say he was right not too?

We could stay down and have rondo and Gayle up top
We could win the playoffs and get 100 mil to spend

Football eh ?
If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

Offline bradleysrocket

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2019, 09:24:10 PM »
We will lose our better players, as long as we get decent money for the likes of Jrod hegazi , Dawson, Rondons fee should bring a bit in. I think any moderately competent championship manager should be capable of building a side strong enough to compete at this level. We won’t have loads to spend obviously but we should still have more than at least half the league I’d imagine. The manager appointment this time more than at any other point  is massive. I’ve really enjoyed this year in the main and am certainly not completely despondent at the idea of another stint in this league.

Offline baggie38

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2019, 10:54:41 PM »
Please tell me there's some decent free agents this summer that we could appeal to.

Offline crazedwbafan18

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2019, 11:06:01 AM »
I think its completely normal to have fears if we don't go up, but i'm sure given our parachute payments that should give us enough to make another good go of it next year. We havent played particularly well this season and still finished fourth, that's what the level of this league is like. I'm sure we are significantly better than a 'championship struggle'. Maybe i'm blind about it all, but surely we have enough in the tank? I mean, i look at the likes of derby, forest, boro, and they are always there or thereabouts and able to be around the top six most seasons, why can't we?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 11:14:06 AM by crazedwbafan18 »
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Offline Albionic

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2019, 02:05:14 PM »
Assuming non-promotion
Whist the rebuild is inevitable, we need to reflect on our competition, I would suggest that no championship club is self financing and without a) sugar daddy or b) parachute payments.

That being correct,
Relegated clubs:- Only Fulham have a sugar daddy, whist Hudd and cardiff will have the benefits of largely established squads and parachute payments
Promoted clubs:- No-one with significant funding there
Existing clubs :- Villa look to be well financed (I cannot countenance them getting promoted this season), similarly Brizzle, beyond that the rest are either running out of parachute payments, under FFP pressure or just struggling in the same way we will be.

We need to be astute and spend wisely and we will be in a position to compete.

the problem is Astute and Wise are not words I would associate with WBAFC 2017/18/19
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Offline MarkW

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2019, 03:07:00 PM »
I would hope Kane Wilson may get a look in at right back, maybe only as a back up, but given our lack of options there he may be forced to start (and yes I have remembered Nyom).

I say it every year but I hope our youngsters see more game time. You can't rely on them to carry the team but we've seen the sides around us have youthful energy which we have lacked for so long. Rogers, Field and Edwards should all be in our 18 next season in my opinion.
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Offline Mooncat

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2019, 03:20:45 PM »
Quote
I think its completely normal to have fears if we don't go up, but i'm sure given our parachute payments that should give us enough to make another good go of it next year.
Didn't the club say something in January like they were borrowing £10m against next year's parachute payment to secure players - admittedly we only bought in Murphy, Johansen & Montero so may not have used that much, but I'm curious as to whether this will further add to our 'cutting the cloth' justification

Offline Barrington

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2019, 03:52:59 PM »
Being realistic, if we don't go up this season, there's every likelihood that we'll not have a hope of seeing the Premier League again for possibly decades. Most likely will be mid-table Chamionship and League one for us for a long time to come. If we couldn't get up this season with the advantage in budget and players, there will be even less chance next season and the one after it. It's most likely going to be bad times folks. Best we can hope for is to at least culture a new tradition of playing entertaining football whilst we languish outside the Prem.

Offline baggiebof

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2019, 04:13:44 PM »
I would like to think that the answer is the same as if we go up: we take stock as a football club and decide upon a direction, recruitment policy and style of play that we want to go in and hire a head coach and players to suit. For me that shouldn't change whether we get promoted or not - it is much needed.

Having said that, I cannot see our board thinking this way; there hasn't appeared to be much long-term thinking for some years now and with the second year of parachute payments, I anticipate a similar approach to this year. They'll try and keep the majority of the squad and follow a 'win now' strategy of loans and short-term deals.

Offline leeiswba

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2019, 06:35:33 PM »
Next season we will have money to compete again but the season after that is when we be in trouble. We had to borrow money this season when we received parachute payments of £42m and in 13 months the payment we will receive will only be around £7m.

So our wage bill will have to be trimmed by a huge amount to break even, if that does happen I don’t think we will be in actual financial trouble as Jenkins in there but I don’t think we will compete at all

Offline baggiejohn

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2019, 06:52:40 PM »
Next season we will have money to compete again but the season after that is when we be in trouble. We had to borrow money this season when we received parachute payments of £42m and in 13 months the payment we will receive will only be around £7m.

So our wage bill will have to be trimmed by a huge amount to break even, if that does happen I don’t think we will be in actual financial trouble as Jenkins in there but I don’t think we will compete at all

Still not convinced we did have to borrow money, we had an overdraft to cover a cash flow situation. Won't have any impact on next season's budget.

You're correct about the 20/21 season though, Lai will have to bankroll us if we're to compete.
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Offline baggiemart

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2019, 07:17:44 PM »
Next season is a definite rebuilding exercise.  Something we should have been doing this season instead of trying to use quick fixes to get us back into the premier.

We just need to take stock of who wants to stay with us next season and build a side around them.  We need to push the older players on . 

It will all start with the manager, I would either take Chris Hughton or get a young manager who has done well in Division 1.  With him on board, then go and buy good championship players or even very good division 1 players. Together with the good youngsters coming through, the ones who want to stay this year and the new championship players, we could give the championship a good go next year ( If we are still in it).

Remember last season, Norwich and Leeds both finished outside the top 10 and Sheffield United finished 10th .

Offline FallOutBoy

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2019, 08:58:13 AM »
Still not convinced we did have to borrow money, we had an overdraft to cover a cash flow situation. Won't have any impact on next season's budget.

You're correct about the 20/21 season though, Lai will have to bankroll us if we're to compete.

We had an overdraft secured against next seasons parachute payment. We have to pay back that overdraft out of that money, which will have an impact on next seasons spending.

It's like one of us using Wonga this month, and having to pay it back out of next months wages. A short-term fix which leaves you worse off in the long run.

Offline Mister AT

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #69 on: May 14, 2019, 10:10:51 AM »
It's all well and good saying we will need a big rebuild, but its also worth noting that not many clubs will probably pay the fees we would want:

Current squad

Johnstone - assuming he stays
Bond - stays
Myhill - should be released

Holgate - will go back
Hegazi - assuming 10million'ish
Dawson - see Hegazi - although I could see us letting him go for cheaper
Bartley - stays
Tosin - goes back
Gibbs - 6-8mil?

Johansen - goes back
Livermore - not long signed a new deal - would imagine the club would believe they could get their money back on him
Brunt - kept on
Morrison - kept on
Harper - leaves
Field - stays
Phillips - 8-10mil? Will anyone take a risk on him with his injuries
Montero - goes back
Murphy - goes back

Rodriguez - taking into his age, I can see the club accepting 10-12mil
Gayle - goes back
HRK - stays

The only ones I can really see any of the prem clubs coming in for would be Hegazi and Rodriguez.

One of the lower clubs will probably take a punt on Dawson and Gibbs if they can get them for decent prices.

I expect Livermore and Phillips will remain here, I just cant see anyone offering anything attractive enough for Phillips with his injury record, the only way he leaves is if he kicks up a fuss or the club push him out due to wages.
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Offline Mister AT

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #70 on: May 14, 2019, 10:28:28 AM »
Please tell me there's some decent free agents this summer that we could appeal to.

Just had a quick search - below are some of the freebies we could probably attract (top few are premier league, rest of out the championship):

Okazaki
Markovic
Baines
Diame
Danny Simpson
Llorente
Jenkinson
Leroy Fer
Narsingh
Nick Powell
Timm Klose
Bradley Johnsen
Josh Vela
McGoldrick
Tyler Blackett
Jack Rodwell
Andre Green
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Offline baggiejohn

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2019, 12:37:45 PM »
We had an overdraft secured against next seasons parachute payment. We have to pay back that overdraft out of that money, which will have an impact on next seasons spending.

It's like one of us using Wonga this month, and having to pay it back out of next months wages. A short-term fix which leaves you worse off in the long run.

If you go on the Premier League website, it shows that all TV revenue (including parachute payments) are paid at the end of the season in May.
Cash flow is about timing, repayment of the overdraft, will have been included in this financial year's budget. The club has known about it since August last year.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

Offline FallOutBoy

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2019, 01:00:40 PM »
If you go on the Premier League website, it shows that all TV revenue (including parachute payments) are paid at the end of the season in May.
Cash flow is about timing, repayment of the overdraft, will have been included in this financial year's budget. The club has known about it since August last year.

Cash flow is about timing, but when you look at that plus all the money which has gone out of the club in the last two years, it paints a very worrying picture. The fact is that under Peace, we had enough cash in reserve that even if our outgoings were above our income, we were still in the black and not having to take out an overdraft.

What we are essentially doing is borrowing against future earnings. That is something Villa were doing under Xia, and it's a bad business practice - that's why they would have been facing serious financial implosion this season had they not been rescued by another takeover, and the capital that generated.

Offline baggiejohn

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #73 on: May 14, 2019, 01:11:01 PM »
Cash flow is about timing, but when you look at that plus all the money which has gone out of the club in the last two years, it paints a very worrying picture. The fact is that under Peace, we had enough cash in reserve that even if our outgoings were above our income, we were still in the black and not having to take out an overdraft.

What we are essentially doing is borrowing against future earnings. That is something Villa were doing under Xia, and it's a bad business practice - that's why they would have been facing serious financial implosion this season had they not been rescued by another takeover, and the capital that generated.


It's all here

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/west-bromwich-albion/2019/04/01/chief-executive-mark-jenkins-insists-west-brom-financially-sound-despite-75m-losses/

Couple of quotes to save you reading it all:

Quote
There have been concerns over Albion’s financial situation this season after the club took out an overdraft in December against parachute payments due at the end of this season to help their cash flow from January to July this year.

The board then sacked head coach Darren Moore in March because they lost faith in his ability to deliver promotion.

But Jenkins insists the club can still look to the future ‘with confidence’, regardless of whether the Baggies go up or not this season.

"The accounts underline the comments I made on my return in February 2018,” said Jenkins. “The cost of a season which ended up with the club relegated from the Premier League exhausted our funds.

“But I also wish to make it clear that, regardless of our fate this season, the club remains on a solid financial footing and can look forward to the future with confidence.

“Clearly, there are extreme differences between competing in the Premier League or the Sky Bet Championship but we are equipped to tackle those challenges from a sound position.”

A directors’ report in the accounts signed by Jenkins states the board believe they will not need another overdraft facility at any stage over the next 12 months.

If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

Offline FallOutBoy

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Re: What happens if we stay down
« Reply #74 on: May 14, 2019, 01:20:55 PM »

It's all here

We have had money from the bank, in the form of an overdraft.

When we get the parachute payment, whether we receive it in May, June, July, August, etc, we still have to pay that overdraft back to the bank (plus interest).

We do not get that money back. We have spent it before we have received it. It has to be paid back. That is less money we have to spend next season.

We will not need an overdraft next season because Jenkins will cut our cloth accordingly to our current cash flow. If we're still in the Championship, that will be a significantly lower cash flow.