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Offline Nathan

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #525 on: March 15, 2019, 12:57:38 PM »
We had a chance to start a legacy with Big Dave. There is absolutely no chance of WBA starting a legacy. Requires trust and patience. The board have neither.

We would have had chance to start a legacy if we had appointed Graham Potter last April/Summer. He comes across as very intelligent and innovative as well as having a good footballing brain and philosophy and also being a thoroughly decent human being and obviously of an age to be in a position to want to around the club for a long enough period of time in order to build that said legacy. I said at the time that we could well regret not making an approach for Potter. For as much as Darren Moore is a nice bloke, he was/is thoroughly lacking in every other department for his appointment to have been a successful long term solution.

Offline darbolina

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #526 on: March 15, 2019, 01:01:04 PM »
Legacy is built on success. Success is usually built on stability and strong foundations. We don't have the basics right at the club so how can we expect the rest to follow?

Maybe the club and Darren knew this and in spite of what they said, he was only ever a short term appointment like the rest the past few years. Arguably, Pulis would've been here longer, longer term (as long as he wanted) if he'd carried on boring us to staying up each year. We're arguably still paying for Pulis' legacy of helping to dismantle the structure and foundations we'd spent 10 years creating too............?

These days it's normal for coaches to stay for no more than a couple of years. We're not that different. We pulled the trigger earlier than most us thought though and we'll never know if Darren was just about to get it together enough to push us on a 7 game winning streak - didn't look that way though.

We just need a coach that's 'in tune' with the club's (latest) strategy. That seems to be simply about getting up and preferably whilst trying to keep the fans happier by playing a bit more attacking football (maybe wrong on the second bit being realistic). 

Offline Albion79

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #527 on: March 15, 2019, 01:10:30 PM »
This is where we are going in circles.

We cant compare to other teams, Sheffield United gave Wilder a chance and he got them promoted from league one, started well last season and faded badly, they could of sacked him after a failing from such a promising start but instead they remained patient and they learnt their lessons and now they have a good chance of going up.

Norwich the same, this time last season they were halfway down the league, their fans were restless, they didnt even start this season that well, yet the board remained patient and they now too have a great chance of going up with a squad that will get better and develop.

You dont build legacys by sacking a manager every time you have a bad month or two, you have faith in your appointment and stick with them, this getting progressively worse stuff under Darren Moore seems to be based mainly on Januarys and Februarys performances and results, two months of the season and it wasnt exactly disastrous, it just wasnt great, yet as other clubs have shown, you may have a bad half a season but to build a legacy thats sometimes what it takes, things may of got worse under Darren Moore, they may of got better, but we will never know because we didnt give it chance to turn it round.

Thats why as much as like the idea of long term vision, legacies, etc, unfortunately i think its fantasy stuff, our board only care about getting on the premier league gravy train, once there they will worry about it then, if we go up i expect similar sort of managerial spells as the last 18 months, the only way i think we have a chance of any sort of long term vision will be to stay down as costs will have to be cut and the club may be forced to think that way.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 01:12:49 PM by Albion79 »

Offline The Black Pearl

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #528 on: March 15, 2019, 01:43:24 PM »
This is where we are going in circles.

We cant compare to other teams, Sheffield United gave Wilder a chance and he got them promoted from league one, started well last season and faded badly, they could of sacked him after a failing from such a promising start but instead they remained patient and they learnt their lessons and now they have a good chance of going up.

Norwich the same, this time last season they were halfway down the league, their fans were restless, they didnt even start this season that well, yet the board remained patient and they now too have a great chance of going up with a squad that will get better and develop.

You dont build legacys by sacking a manager every time you have a bad month or two, you have faith in your appointment and stick with them, this getting progressively worse stuff under Darren Moore seems to be based mainly on Januarys and Februarys performances and results, two months of the season and it wasnt exactly disastrous, it just wasnt great, yet as other clubs have shown, you may have a bad half a season but to build a legacy thats sometimes what it takes, things may of got worse under Darren Moore, they may of got better, but we will never know because we didnt give it chance to turn it round.

Thats why as much as like the idea of long term vision, legacies, etc, unfortunately i think its fantasy stuff, our board only care about getting on the premier league gravy train, once there they will worry about it then, if we go up i expect similar sort of managerial spells as the last 18 months, the only way i think we have a chance of any sort of long term vision will be to stay down as costs will have to be cut and the club may be forced to think that way.

It wasn't just a bad month or two, it was a whole season of forcing a style of play on a team not equipped to play it, we got away with it for a long while only because we were scoring a lot of goals and could normally outscore the opposition because we had a bit of quality up top. Once the goals dried up, the cracks became more apparent, it was not as though the high risk playing out from the back ever came to anything positive, it was high risk, almost no gain, no manager in any walk of life should allow such a thing to continue, but Big Dave did, its just verging on gross stupidity.
If you want to change a playing style you have to do it steadily in a considered way, Big Dave unfortunately just did not seem to get this.
We need a complete midfield rebuild and have done since Pullis departed, without that, you can only tinker around the edges of playing style.
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Offline cornishbaggie

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #529 on: March 15, 2019, 01:57:29 PM »
This is where we are going in circles.

We cant compare to other teams, Sheffield United gave Wilder a chance and he got them promoted from league one, started well last season and faded badly, they could of sacked him after a failing from such a promising start but instead they remained patient and they learnt their lessons and now they have a good chance of going up.

Norwich the same, this time last season they were halfway down the league, their fans were restless, they didnt even start this season that well, yet the board remained patient and they now too have a great chance of going up with a squad that will get better and develop.

You dont build legacys by sacking a manager every time you have a bad month or two, you have faith in your appointment and stick with them, this getting progressively worse stuff under Darren Moore seems to be based mainly on Januarys and Februarys performances and results, two months of the season and it wasnt exactly disastrous, it just wasnt great, yet as other clubs have shown, you may have a bad half a season but to build a legacy thats sometimes what it takes, things may of got worse under Darren Moore, they may of got better, but we will never know because we didnt give it chance to turn it round.

Thats why as much as like the idea of long term vision, legacies, etc, unfortunately i think its fantasy stuff, our board only care about getting on the premier league gravy train, once there they will worry about it then, if we go up i expect similar sort of managerial spells as the last 18 months, the only way i think we have a chance of any sort of long term vision will be to stay down as costs will have to be cut and the club may be forced to think that way.

Thanks Albion79 couldn't have put it better myself. Dave wasn't the finished article. He was learning on the job. Neither the board nor some fans on here had the patience to back him. Shame.

So sad how many people demand instant gratification.

Offline Albion79

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #530 on: March 15, 2019, 02:01:50 PM »
Fair points but to counter that you could say he has won over 50% of his albion games which i believe is one of the best records in our history, we are second highest scorers in the league and also 4th in the league with a very strong chance of the playoffs so it wasnt exactly terrible, i would say it was the start of a potentially promising future.

However all the pros and cons have been done to death, he has gone, but the biggest mistake i think he did make which will possibly impact the next manager was having too much faith in these players when we could of started the clearout last summer.

If we go up whoever comes in is saddled with the same group, they are on good contracts and will get 50% pay increases if we go up so wont be in any rush to leave, yet they showed last season they arent good enough for the premier league, they will be even worse next time, but they will be very hard to sell, if we go up this squad will most likely form the nucleus of next seasons premier league squad.

The only way i seen that changing and us having any sort of longer term plan is if we stay down and have to sell, i also think whoever the new manager who comes in will get a fairer chance from the fans that way too as the expectation wont be there when they see younger more unknown players rather than the ‘names’ we have now.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 02:16:23 PM by Albion79 »

Offline seteefeet

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #531 on: March 15, 2019, 02:40:49 PM »
It wasn't just a bad month or two, it was a whole season of forcing a style of play on a team not equipped to play it, we got away with it for a long while only because we were scoring a lot of goals and could normally outscore the opposition because we had a bit of quality up top. Once the goals dried up, the cracks became more apparent, it was not as though the high risk playing out from the back ever came to anything positive, it was high risk, almost no gain, no manager in any walk of life should allow such a thing to continue, but Big Dave did, its just verging on gross stupidity.
If you want to change a playing style you have to do it steadily in a considered way, Big Dave unfortunately just did not seem to get this.
We need a complete midfield rebuild and have done since Pullis departed, without that, you can only tinker around the edges of playing style.
Sorry but I don't believe that Lai, Jenkins etc. give a flying fig, or know anything, about playing style, they care only about money and results, therefore, whilst you are right about the various issues on the pitch, the decision must have been based on the last month or 2 and predominantly the poor home form.

Offline Adder

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #532 on: March 15, 2019, 03:36:36 PM »
Sorry but I don't believe that Lai, Jenkins etc. give a flying fig, or know anything, about playing style, they care only about money and results, therefore, whilst you are right about the various issues on the pitch, the decision must have been based on the last month or 2 and predominantly the poor home form.
Jenkins does give a flying fig though about getting the seats filled and good season ticket sales and the exciting football of pre Christmas went a long way to getting full stadiums.

Offline frazzle

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #533 on: March 15, 2019, 04:10:58 PM »
We would have had chance to start a legacy if we had appointed Graham Potter last April/Summer. He comes across as very intelligent and innovative as well as having a good footballing brain and philosophy and also being a thoroughly decent human being and obviously of an age to be in a position to want to around the club for a long enough period of time in order to build that said legacy. I said at the time that we could well regret not making an approach for Potter. For as much as Darren Moore is a nice bloke, he was/is thoroughly lacking in every other department for his appointment to have been a successful long term solution.

Agree on Potter but look where Swansea are in the table. No way our fans or board would have given him the time. Swansea will be strong next season I reckon.

Offline baggiejohn

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #534 on: March 15, 2019, 04:56:31 PM »
This is where we are going in circles.

We cant compare to other teams, Sheffield United gave Wilder a chance and he got them promoted from league one, started well last season and faded badly, they could of sacked him after a failing from such a promising start but instead they remained patient and they learnt their lessons and now they have a good chance of going up.

Norwich the same, this time last season they were halfway down the league, their fans were restless, they didnt even start this season that well, yet the board remained patient and they now too have a great chance of going up with a squad that will get better and develop.

You dont build legacys by sacking a manager every time you have a bad month or two, you have faith in your appointment and stick with them, this getting progressively worse stuff under Darren Moore seems to be based mainly on Januarys and Februarys performances and results, two months of the season and it wasnt exactly disastrous, it just wasnt great, yet as other clubs have shown, you may have a bad half a season but to build a legacy thats sometimes what it takes, things may of got worse under Darren Moore, they may of got better, but we will never know because we didnt give it chance to turn it round.

Thats why as much as like the idea of long term vision, legacies, etc, unfortunately i think its fantasy stuff, our board only care about getting on the premier league gravy train, once there they will worry about it then, if we go up i expect similar sort of managerial spells as the last 18 months, the only way i think we have a chance of any sort of long term vision will be to stay down as costs will have to be cut and the club may be forced to think that way.


You're right, except we're pretty unique in this division. in that our owner currently has a £200 million asset, which will only realise it's value back in the Premier League.
Just cannot see GL writing that off.
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #535 on: March 15, 2019, 04:59:15 PM »
Agree on Potter but look where Swansea are in the table. No way our fans or board would have given him the time. Swansea will be strong next season I reckon.

I also think Swansea will be strong next season, I fear unless we manage to get promoted this season then we will see Swansea and Potter in the Premier League long before ourselves.
On your other point, our fans and board I think would have been more likely to have given Potter (or anyone else) the time if he was in a similar position to what he is in at Swansea, with his hands tied with zero funds available and a complete rebuild mission on his hands. In a funny sort of way, maybe it would have been best for us in the long run to have had to completely start again this season and rebuild from scratch. As some others have said though, the club seem to be continually operating with a short term mentality and the attitude of the Premier League being the be all and end all and sod the club foundations.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 05:01:10 PM by Nathan »

Offline TheJacko2000

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #536 on: March 15, 2019, 05:00:16 PM »
So on the basis that you didn't like Irvine or Clarke, you are writing off Alex Neil as dross? Who isn't at all dour by the way, though you seem to insist on labeling him as such. Oh yes and you consistently slag off Derek McInnes too whenever you get the chance. And you never liked Graham Dorrans. Nor Oli Burke.........Yes, I'm beginning to see the pattern.


Conspiracy theories are there to be debunked I suppose. Where do Morrison and Phillips come into this one? Nothing to do with like or dislike:


Irvine wildly out of his depth, worse manager we've ever had and I sat through Burkinshaw, Buckley, Smith and Little in my teens.


Clarke benefitted hugely from taking over from Hodgson and as soon as he tried to tweak it more towards his own style the wheels came off. A poor manager who has found his level in Scotland.


McInnes plays attritional football, it's common knowledge and not something I want at Albion.


Dorrans was a flat-track bully in the Championship, rarely turned up against the better sides and amid shouts of 'the next Bryan Robson' etc on here I just pointed out he wasn't that good and wouldn't cut it in the Premier League, guess what? He wasn't and didn't.


Don't recall having any major problem with Ollie Burke, perhaps you're thinking of someone else?


Alex Neil did well enough at Hamilton to get a move to Norwich who he took up through the play-offs in his first half season, they then got relegated immediately. He's not sitting on a 40% win percentage at Preston. Moore had a 50% win percentage. Preston aren't particularly good to watch and neither were Norwich. He'd be a very underwhelming choice, and yes he comes across as dour in interviews.


I don't have a problem with Scots or any nationality, have another go.
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Offline 17GD

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #537 on: March 15, 2019, 05:30:07 PM »
With every day that goes by and we don't appoint someone, we get closer to either giving it Shan (no disrespect, even by his own words he is overawed by it) or appointing a mediocre has-been like we did with Pardew. I'm still bewildered as to why DM was sacked with no one waiting in the wings. Surely if you have a meeting with the boss and say "fail to win and you're out" it would have been AFTER a meeting with the one you're about to appoint.

And at this stage of the season, the ball is always going to be in the possible new coach's court as he knows we don't have time and would need to bow to their every request.

The only positive is that barring a disaster, a play off place looks pretty much certain going into the final 9 games.

Offline divinewind

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #538 on: March 15, 2019, 05:54:33 PM »
Thanks Albion79 couldn't have put it better myself. Dave wasn't the finished article. He was learning on the job. Neither the board nor some fans on here had the patience to back him. Shame.

So sad how many people demand instant gratification.

It's the club that were demanding an instant return to the premiership. That being the case why give the job to someone with no experience in the first place?
They were afraid of being labelled racist if they didn't by the very people who are labelling racist now.

Never in all my years of watching football have i seen anything so dumb as replacing a centre forward with a centre half in a cup tie, and using all the subs before extra time was played.
That isn't learning the game, that was 100% proof dumb.
You wouldn't do that in Fifa never mind in real life.

The only thing that stopped Darren being a good manager was a lack of a brain in his skull.

Offline Standaman

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #539 on: March 15, 2019, 06:32:00 PM »
Agree with Albion79. We lurch from a "long term" appointment to a quick fix and then back again. I am not opening up the Moore debate but there must come a point when we back a manager through a downswing.

Whoever we appoint by definition is a quick fix with a view to getting up this season. If we don't get up do we fire them? If they do get us promoted at what point next season do we fire them?  After 3 straight defeats which in the Premier League is quite likely to happen to any newly promoted team.

I barely care who appoint we may as well draw the name out of a hat. We have no vision or if we do we chicken out as soon as we hit any bump in the road.


« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 09:11:12 PM by Standaman »
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Offline The Black Pearl

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #540 on: March 15, 2019, 07:35:53 PM »
Agree with Albion79. We lurch from a "long term" appointment to a quick fix and then back again. I am not opening up the Moore debate but if there must come a point when we back a manager through a downswing.

Whoever we appoint by definition is a quick fix with a view to getting up this season. If we don't get up do we fire them? If they do get us promoted at point next season do we fire them? 

I barely care who appoint we may as well draw the name out of a hat. We have no vision or if we do we chicken out as soon as we hit any bump in the road.

I agree with you entirely, I just don't think Big Dave (sadly) was the right one, the continual playing out from the back with no variation was not the act of a top coach, it was a dogma and one that had been rumbled by the high press of the opposition, we need an astute coach who can build as side and change things as players arrive and depart, at least JP worked to a plan, the current owner and his minnions seem to only want financial results.
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Offline caravanc58

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #541 on: March 15, 2019, 08:16:36 PM »

Conspiracy theories are there to be debunked I suppose. Where do Morrison and Phillips come into this one? Nothing to do with like or dislike:


Irvine wildly out of his depth, worse manager we've ever had and I sat through Burkinshaw, Buckley, Smith and Little in my teens.


Clarke benefitted hugely from taking over from Hodgson and as soon as he tried to tweak it more towards his own style the wheels came off. A poor manager who has found his level in Scotland.


McInnes plays attritional football, it's common knowledge and not something I want at Albion.


Dorrans was a flat-track bully in the Championship, rarely turned up against the better sides and amid shouts of 'the next Bryan Robson' etc on here I just pointed out he wasn't that good and wouldn't cut it in the Premier League, guess what? He wasn't and didn't.


Don't recall having any major problem with Ollie Burke, perhaps you're thinking of someone else?


Alex Neil did well enough at Hamilton to get a move to Norwich who he took up through the play-offs in his first half season, they then got relegated immediately. He's not sitting on a 40% win percentage at Preston. Moore had a 50% win percentage. Preston aren't particularly good to watch and neither were Norwich. He'd be a very underwhelming choice, and yes he comes across as dour in interviews.


I don't have a problem with Scots or any nationality, have another go.
Own goal Jacko.😧
Attrition means to wear down and destroy the enemy/opposition with sustained attacks.
Know wonder you were such a big advocate of Pulis, we wouldn't want any of this attrition malarkey down the Albion would we?🍌

Offline silver surfer

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #542 on: March 15, 2019, 08:59:57 PM »
Not exclusively through sustained attacks, Attrition can also mean grinding down an enemies greater resources and advantages using tactics designed to frustrate and limit losses.
Common sense isn't that common

Offline Scooby Doo

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #543 on: March 15, 2019, 10:28:37 PM »
The biggest thing with Moore wasn't making the mistakes. It was making mistakes and not learning from them. Hopefully whoever we employ either has a strong belief and ideology on how to play (which Moore didn't), or is tactically adaptable (which Moore wasn't).

Offline The Black Pearl

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #544 on: March 15, 2019, 10:39:12 PM »
The biggest thing with Moore wasn't making the mistakes. It was making mistakes and not learning from them. Hopefully whoever we employ either has a strong belief and ideology on how to play (which Moore didn't), or is tactically adaptable (which Moore wasn't).

Yep, absolutely right, doing the same things that don't work over and over again is just negligent.
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Offline TheJacko2000

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #545 on: March 15, 2019, 10:54:20 PM »
Own goal Jacko.😧
Attrition means to wear down and destroy the enemy/opposition with sustained attacks.
Know wonder you were such a big advocate of Pulis, we wouldn't want any of this attrition malarkey down the Albion would we?🍌


Very selective definition... I was going for: a gradual process of wearing down, weakening, or destroying something. McInnes and Pulis do this through negative grinding low risk football.


Pulis was needed at the time. I put up with it on the proviso something better would follow. To that end a midseason sacking was pointless and so it proved, so he retained my support last season.

Know wonder? Best get that dictionary out one more time...
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Offline johnnyg

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #546 on: March 15, 2019, 11:18:41 PM »
That last line is too personal, Jacko.  Way too personal.
I agree with you on most points you make on here tbh, but that last line was uncalled for.

Offline caravanc58

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #547 on: March 16, 2019, 12:35:46 AM »

Very selective definition... I was going for: a gradual process of wearing down, weakening, or destroying something. McInnes and Pulis do this through negative grinding low risk football.


Pulis was needed at the time. I put up with it on the proviso something better would follow. To that end a midseason sacking was pointless and so it proved, so he retained my support last season.

Know wonder? Best get that dictionary out one more time...
I ay got a dicshonry.😁

Offline baggie96

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #548 on: March 16, 2019, 06:17:43 AM »
We need someone to come in and start on Monday, they’ve then got a couple of weeks to get their ideas into the players due to the international break. I think it’s between Jokanovic, Neil and Appleton. Jokanovic is expensive, Neil will be tough to get from pne and Appleton would probably have a bad fan reaction. IMO though Appleton would be great, he’s a very good tactician, plays good football with solid foundations and most importantly gets the best out of young players.

Offline wbarenno

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #549 on: March 16, 2019, 08:44:31 AM »
We need someone to come in and start on Monday, they’ve then got a couple of weeks to get their ideas into the players due to the international break. I think it’s between Jokanovic, Neil and Appleton. Jokanovic is expensive, Neil will be tough to get from pne and Appleton would probably have a bad fan reaction. IMO though Appleton would be great, he’s a very good tactician, plays good football with solid foundations and most importantly gets the best out of young players.

No offence intended mate but when has Appleton ever shown this? Honestly think Appleton would be a leap backwards from Moore. Neil wouldn’t be an overly popular appointment but at least he has experience at this level. From the way I see it if it’s not jokanovic then we might aswell of kept Darren Moore in charge