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Offline Dan

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2075 on: May 15, 2019, 10:28:59 PM »
You clearly didn’t watch his promotion-winning Norwich and Brighton sides.  Check the stats. 90 and 74 goals.

We scored 80 odd goals this season but you could hardly say we've been anything close to entertaining in the vast majority of those games. Particularly under Shan were we've been extremely direct with very little technical ability but still got plenty of goals.

Offline BalisPen

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2076 on: May 15, 2019, 10:31:22 PM »
In the unlikely event that Jenkins doesn't balls it up we have to put in his contract that he promises not bring Jacob Murphy back to us, despite him giving him his debut.

Absolutely terrible player, but one that makes me feel a scintilla less angry about the Burke, as it appears many teams have their own expensive donkey signings with the likes of traore and Costa at the dings.

Offline Blowee

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2077 on: May 15, 2019, 10:31:44 PM »
You clearly didn’t watch his promotion-winning Norwich and Brighton sides.  Check the stats. 90 and 74 goals.
I have to admit I saw little of Brighton's promotion season but have read a number of comments from Norwich fans who have all claimed that his style was very uninspiring. If he is appointed I hope that you are right and we get something to cheer about. I guess a lot depends upon the squad of players that would be available.

Offline elmo_in_swansea

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2078 on: May 15, 2019, 10:32:01 PM »
If we're going to consider Hughton, surely Moyes must be in the frame then ;D
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Offline Blowee

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2079 on: May 15, 2019, 10:41:53 PM »
You clearly didn’t watch his promotion-winning Norwich and Brighton sides.  Check the stats. 90 and 74 goals.
Just to add to this - here is an interest view from both Brighton and Norwich fans,

 "Negative football
One of the biggest bugbears that Brighton supporters seem to have with Hughton is his negative approach to games, which is best summed up by the recent record-breaking 12 hours and 15 minutes that we managed to go without a goal. Connor tells us that Norwich fans had similar complaints.

“It’s fair to say it was negative. Norwich fans struggle to recall any performances under Hughton that provoke any ounce of excitement, to be honest."

Offline overseas baggie

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2080 on: May 15, 2019, 10:42:16 PM »
I have to admit I saw little of Brighton's promotion season but have read a number of comments from Norwich fans who have all claimed that his style was very uninspiring. If he is appointed I hope that you are right and we get something to cheer about. I guess a lot depends upon the squad of players that would be available.

I think the Norwich fans were more negative about the following season when they went up, without investing in new players.

Offline overseas baggie

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2081 on: May 15, 2019, 10:45:57 PM »
Just to add to this - here is an interest view from both Brighton and Norwich fans,

 "Negative football
One of the biggest bugbears that Brighton supporters seem to have with Hughton is his negative approach to games, which is best summed up by the recent record-breaking 12 hours and 15 minutes that we managed to go without a goal. Connor tells us that Norwich fans had similar complaints.

“It’s fair to say it was negative. Norwich fans struggle to recall any performances under Hughton that provoke any ounce of excitement, to be honest."

They are talking about when in the Premier League. A different ballgame altogether.   Norwich didn’t invest at all when they went up.  Brighton did, not not until this season when they still had the third lowest wage bill yet didn’t finish in the top 3.

All managers struggle at one point, even the very best ones. The good ones learn from their mistakes and do things differently the next time round.  The bad ones just keep repeating their mistakes.

Let’s get there first.

Offline overseas baggie

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2082 on: May 15, 2019, 10:46:31 PM »
If we're going to consider Hughton, surely Moyes must be in the frame then ;D

Nope !

Offline WBArgo

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2083 on: May 15, 2019, 10:48:28 PM »
I doubt it will happen but personally I'd like Monk to manage us. He plays good football and seems a decent bloke.
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Offline gazberg

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2084 on: May 15, 2019, 10:48:45 PM »
Matt Wilson. Said Hughton and Cowley early front runners. Interested in Viera too.

Offline Blowee

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2085 on: May 15, 2019, 10:50:22 PM »
They are talking about when in the Premier League. A different ballgame altogether.   Norwich didn’t invest at all when they went up.  Brighton did, not not until this season when they still had the third lowest wage bill yet didn’t finish in the top 3.

All managers struggle at one point, even the very best ones. The good ones learn from their mistakes and do things differently the next time round.  The bad ones just keep repeating their mistakes.

Let’s get there first.
My head in a way says that you are right but my heart still wants a football revolution with someone like Graham Potter coming in a building a team from scratch.

Offline EastYorksAlbion

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2086 on: May 15, 2019, 10:53:07 PM »
Maybe after Leeds implosion, Bielsa might become available. With financial backing he would play football we would all enjoy.

Offline BalisPen

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2087 on: May 15, 2019, 11:06:55 PM »
Don't like hypocritical Burnley, but I read somwhere that they operate on a £58m wage bill, which I am sure leaves enough for the likes of Barry "West brom get an illegal subsidy" Kilby a nice little earner.

Amazingly low wage bill, but a very unattractive workmanlike team.

I'd take Dyche in the unlikely event he becomes available as his recruitment is quite exceptional, but who else here would?

Offline overseas baggie

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2088 on: May 15, 2019, 11:38:59 PM »
Don't like hypocritical Burnley, but I read somwhere that they operate on a £58m wage bill, which I am sure leaves enough for the likes of Barry "West brom get an illegal subsidy" Kilby a nice little earner.

Amazingly low wage bill, but a very unattractive workmanlike team.

I'd take Dyche in the unlikely event he becomes available as his recruitment is quite exceptional, but who else here would?

Not a prayer of him leaving Burnley

Offline timdon

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2089 on: May 15, 2019, 11:50:27 PM »
My head in a way says that you are right but my heart still wants a football revolution with someone like Graham Potter coming in a building a team from scratch.
That's what my head says. It's exactly what we need, a good young coach with a 3 year plan.

Offline BalisPen

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2090 on: May 15, 2019, 11:50:40 PM »
Not a prayer of him leaving Burnley

That's not the question I asked though is it, it's with those wages and the pulisesque football would they take him if was to become available?

Offline vrabbit

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2091 on: May 16, 2019, 12:40:58 AM »
I doubt it will happen but personally I'd like Monk to manage us. He plays good football and seems a decent bloke.

I've been wanting him appointed since we fired Pulis TBH

Offline BalisPen

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2092 on: May 16, 2019, 12:43:00 AM »
Telegraph reporting that we will be speaking to CH next week.

Offline Standaman

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2093 on: May 16, 2019, 12:47:20 AM »
Interesting developments quick run through some of the names before some more detailed thoughts on current favourite Chris Hughton.

Vieira.  Odd name to be linked but he is already Head Coach in Ligue 1 at Nice who are certainly not minnows even if they are a step below PSG and Lyon. Their last two coaches left to take up positions at Southampton and Dortmund and that is the direction of travel for Patrick Vieira rather than the Albion.

Dan Cowley. When you feel the need to defend the way you play football in League 2 you can rest assured that it is pig ugly. I am not adverse to giving the role to an up and coming coach from outside the top two teirs but, no.

Hughton seems to be the favourite so is worth considering a little bit more closely in particular the apparent paradox of his teams scoring lots of goals in the championship and the virtual disapperance of Brighton as an attacking entity in the second half of this season which basically lead to his dismissal.

Hughton is in the same pragmatic camp as Benetiz,Mourinho, Pulis and Moyes (among others) He shares a fondness like other members of the group for a 4-2-3-1. This formation has two basic modes an offensive and a defensive one. In offensive mode the deep sitting double pivot is used to pin opponents in their own half free the front 4 to play and under more attack minded managers the full backs also push high up to provide additional wide options.

The defensive mode is sees the deep sitting block form which in it's extreme form sees the double pivot play just in front of the back four the full backs tuck in and the two wide players drop deep as auxiliary full backs. The 10 may also drop deep leaving a lone striker as the only out ball. This is Pulisball because Pulis seldom if ever moves out of this mode almost regardless of opposition or game situation.

Nearly every other manager is tends to switch between the two modes based on the relative strength of the opposition and game situation. Typically when confronted with superior opposition they will tend to be cautious and when there is a need to get a "result"  often the default mode is defensive. However when confronted by inferior opposition particularly at home they play on the front foot and often rack up big scores like Mourinho's championship winning Chelsea teams.

Specifically Hughton has managed Newcastle and Brighton at Championship level and certainly Newcastle would have had a very strong squad and Brighton's would certainly been above the league average. Hence the goals. in the Premier League however he has reverted to a more defensive version to grind out the neccassary points first at Norwich and now at Brighton. This is understanable but another tendancy that he shares with this group of managers is when the pressure grows they tend to become more defensive until they get to a position of relative safety and boy is it dull to watch.

If he has a relatively strong squad in the Championship he will be fine but the problem will be if and when we are promoted. I would much prefer to develop an attacking possession based style in the Championship and then have the balls to carry it into the Premier League if we are promoted.

And the hypothetical Dyche question what he achieved at Burnley is remarkable but no it is as unwatchable as Pulisball. That is what it boils down to I have to watch it and I just don't like the way many of these managers play the game.
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Online TheJacko2000

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2094 on: May 16, 2019, 02:12:48 AM »
Interesting developments quick run through some of the names before some more detailed thoughts on current favourite Chris Hughton.

Vieira.  Odd name to be linked but he is already Head Coach in Ligue 1 at Nice who are certainly not minnows even if they are a step below PSG and Lyon. Their last two coaches left to take up positions at Southampton and Dortmund and that is the direction of travel for Patrick Vieira rather than the Albion.

Dan Cowley. When you feel the need to defend the way you play football in League 2 you can rest assured that it is pig ugly. I am not adverse to giving the role to an up and coming coach from outside the top two teirs but, no.

Hughton seems to be the favourite so is worth considering a little bit more closely in particular the apparent paradox of his teams scoring lots of goals in the championship and the virtual disapperance of Brighton as an attacking entity in the second half of this season which basically lead to his dismissal.

Hughton is in the same pragmatic camp as Benetiz,Mourinho, Pulis and Moyes (among others) He shares a fondness like other members of the group for a 4-2-3-1. This formation has two basic modes an offensive and a defensive one. In offensive mode the deep sitting double pivot is used to pin opponents in their own half free the front 4 to play and under more attack minded managers the full backs also push high up to provide additional wide options.

The defensive mode is sees the deep sitting block form which in it's extreme form sees the double pivot play just in front of the back four the full backs tuck in and the two wide players drop deep as auxiliary full backs. The 10 may also drop deep leaving a lone striker as the only out ball. This is Pulisball because Pulis seldom if ever moves out of this mode almost regardless of opposition or game situation.

Nearly every other manager is tends to switch between the two modes based on the relative strength of the opposition and game situation. Typically when confronted with superior opposition they will tend to be cautious and when there is a need to get a "result"  often the default mode is defensive. However when confronted by inferior opposition particularly at home they play on the front foot and often rack up big scores like Mourinho's championship winning Chelsea teams.

Specifically Hughton has managed Newcastle and Brighton at Championship level and certainly Newcastle would have had a very strong squad and Brighton's would certainly been above the league average. Hence the goals. in the Premier League however he has reverted to a more defensive version to grind out the neccassary points first at Norwich and now at Brighton. This is understanable but another tendancy that he shares with this group of managers is when the pressure grows they tend to become more defensive until they get to a position of relative safety and boy is it dull to watch.

If he has a relatively strong squad in the Championship he will be fine but the problem will be if and when we are promoted. I would much prefer to develop an attacking possession based style in the Championship and then have the balls to carry it into the Premier League if we are promoted.

And the hypothetical Dyche question what he achieved at Burnley is remarkable but no it is as unwatchable as Pulisball. That is what it boils down to I have to watch it and I just don't like the way many of these managers play the game.


Your thoughts on Roy Hodgson, who you might as well be describing regards your thoughts on Hughton. Cheers.
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Offline Standaman

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2095 on: May 16, 2019, 07:02:13 AM »

Your thoughts on Roy Hodgson, who you might as well be describing regards your thoughts on Hughton. Cheers.

Yes as I said there are quite a few established coaches that are similar. In defence of Roy he doesn't retreat as far into his shell as Hughton has particularly this season.

It is debateable as to how far this style of football can carry a team. I was listening to a podcast the other day and the discussion was on which of the Premier League teams might step up into the top 6 should United continue to slide next season. While Wolves and Nunes were much admired to actually break the top 6 the view was that to accumulate enough additional points he needed to find a few more forward gears.

The danager with this type of coach is that at some point in the future will get left behind at all levels of the game while fine for grinding out survival it isn't enough if you want to win stuff e.g. promotion then this style needs to be jetisoned 
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Offline overseas baggie

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2096 on: May 16, 2019, 07:44:40 AM »
That's not the question I asked though is it, it's with those wages and the pulisesque football would they take him if was to become available?

I would sincerely hope not

Offline baggiebof

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2097 on: May 16, 2019, 07:48:08 AM »
[quote author=Standaman link=topic=23098.msg661555#msg661555

If he has a relatively strong squad in the Championship he will be fine but the problem will be if and when we are promoted. I would much prefer to develop an attacking possession based style in the Championship and then have the balls to carry it into the Premier League if we are promoted.

[/quote]

Exactly where I am.

Online Atomic

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2098 on: May 16, 2019, 08:01:59 AM »
The trouble with an expansive, attacking style of play is that it is very difficult for newly promoted clubs to implement successfully  because you are trying to play fire with fire against some of the worlds best players.

It's fine to play that way if you are Liverpool or Man City and clubs down to the levels of Everton / Leicester can do it to some extent because they have had years to recruit better players. When you go up from the Championship if you want to survive you have to be more pragmatic. Someone like Graham Potter may produce a top class Championship team like Swansea may well become but in the Premier League it won't work consistently.

Wolves have done it exactly the right way they play a counter attacking game that can succeed in the Premier League. The next step for them is to continue to play the same way but to bring in even better players to do it (and that's hard). Then if they can achieve that then and only then is it logical to try and play a more expansive type of football.

The positive regarding Hughton is he has adapted to what division he's managing in. His teams have tended to be a bit less pragmatic in the Championship than they have in the Premier League. Even then he's no Pulis.

Offline Mister AT

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Re: Next manager...
« Reply #2099 on: May 16, 2019, 09:01:46 AM »
[quote author=Standaman link=topic=23098.msg661555#msg661555

If he has a relatively strong squad in the Championship he will be fine but the problem will be if and when we are promoted. I would much prefer to develop an attacking possession based style in the Championship and then have the balls to carry it into the Premier League if we are promoted.



Exactly where I am.

Unless you had the personnel, it would be suicidal to go into the premier league thinking you can outplay majority of the teams.

Norwich play some nice football, plenty of quick passing, I guarantee if they continue that style next season they will get picked apart by any of the top 10 teams.

I think we are looking to far ahead, this summer a big rebuild is required, we need someone who can deliver that and build a decent enough team to challenge next year. Let's not even worry/think about the Premier League, as we are nowhere near it yet.

Let's get the best man in for the job. If the board think that's Hughton then so be it, we as fans need to back him, we saw on Tuesday night what a full stadium that back the players on the pitch can do, they put in a solid performance and looked absolutely shattered. Would they have done that if the crowd was negative, I doubt it.
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