Author Topic: Who really wants promotion?  (Read 6404 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

overseas baggie

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 2900
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2019, 07:57:41 PM »
Bournemouth have spent nearly £70 million quid this year, with a net spend of nearly £50 million.   That may be Premier League small fry but could not be done without somebody having deepish pockets.

Deep pockets (capital) can buy expensive players but it doesn’t help with paying the wages of expensive players because of the wage cap. A £40m player signed on a 3-year contract on £100k/week is a £60m commitment. That’s just one expensive player.  PL wage bill is only allowed to rise by £7m a year once the limit is reached.  That’s used up by just signing one and a half such top players, leaving nothing for contract extensions/pay rises for other squad players.

What’s wrong with the FFP/STCC rules is that it creates a closed shop for the big 6.  If Bournemouth’s owner, or Wolves owner, are able and willing to put up cash to guarantee the wage bill surplus (over the limit) for 3 years ahead, so that it doesn’t burden the club with debt (ie is entirely at the owner’s risk), then why shouldn’t they?

wba_1996

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1055
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #76 on: January 18, 2019, 01:48:52 AM »
Bournemouth have spent nearly £70 million quid this year, with a net spend of nearly £50 million.   That may be Premier League small fry but could not be done without somebody having deepish pockets.

A lot of these players being signed for £15-20m from mid-lower table foreign clubs will have been on less than £15k pw at their former clubs. We paid the likes of Morrison £50k pw and signing experienced British players like Evans means you're looking at £70k+ pw. Take a look at the highest earners at Prem clubs, they're always the experienced guys who have been signed from fellow Prem clubs.

Young English players from lower leagues and foreign players who have never played in England are the ways to go. Transfer fees are irrelevant, wages are the main thing restricted by FFP, last season our wage bill was higher than Bournemouth's.

SmethDan

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4346
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2019, 10:34:55 AM »
Deep pockets (capital) can buy expensive players but it doesn’t help with paying the wages of expensive players because of the wage cap. A £40m player signed on a 3-year contract on £100k/week is a £60m commitment. That’s just one expensive player.  PL wage bill is only allowed to rise by £7m a year once the limit is reached.  That’s used up by just signing one and a half such top players, leaving nothing for contract extensions/pay rises for other squad players.

What’s wrong with the FFP/STCC rules is that it creates a closed shop for the big 6.  If Bournemouth’s owner, or Wolves owner, are able and willing to put up cash to guarantee the wage bill surplus (over the limit) for 3 years ahead, so that it doesn’t burden the club with debt (ie is entirely at the owner’s risk), then why shouldn’t they?


Very true but from memory Bournemouth had an inflated wage bill and general costs which landed them in bother with the authorities on promotion. Although this was eventually addressed via a next to nothing fine, that inflated wage bill effectively increased the level they started from in relation to what they could pay new players following promotion and in subsequent years.

By taking such a gamble they cocked a snoop to the authorities by putting themselves one step ahead of their newly promoted rivals and teams who adhere to the rules. Interestingly (again from memory) and despite his reputation for parsimony, Jeremy Peace was one of the few chairmen of the time who voted against FFP/STCC as it created a ceiling for teams even in the event of takeover.
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
If you don't know how to use them, they will never be enough.
Oh, and always remember to defecate on those Vile chaps in claret and spew.

overseas baggie

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 2900
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2019, 11:43:12 AM »
Very true but from memory Bournemouth had an inflated wage bill and general costs which landed them in bother with the authorities on promotion. Although this was eventually addressed via a next to nothing fine, that inflated wage bill effectively increased the level they started from in relation to what they could pay new players following promotion and in subsequent years.

By taking such a gamble they cocked a snoop to the authorities by putting themselves one step ahead of their newly promoted rivals and teams who adhere to the rules. Interestingly (again from memory) and despite his reputation for parsimony, Jeremy Peace was one of the few chairmen of the time who voted against FFP/STCC as it created a ceiling for teams even in the event of takeover.

100% correct


SmethDan

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4346
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2019, 01:37:45 AM »
100% correct

Stumbled across an interesting (if long winded) article in Four Four Two a couple of hours back.

Looks in some detail into the losses incurred and gambles taken in the Championship.

Well worth a read in anyone's spare time.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/financial-fair-play-vs-fairy-tales-football-leagues-intractable-fiscal-conundrum
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
If you don't know how to use them, they will never be enough.
Oh, and always remember to defecate on those Vile chaps in claret and spew.

overseas baggie

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 2900
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #80 on: January 19, 2019, 03:22:13 AM »
Stumbled across an interesting (if long winded) article in Four Four Two a couple of hours back.

Looks in some detail into the losses incurred and gambles taken in the Championship.

Well worth a read in anyone's spare time.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/financial-fair-play-vs-fairy-tales-football-leagues-intractable-fiscal-conundrum

Very interesting read. The big that stands out is that 87% of cash for Championship clubs comes from owner investment.  All the more reason for Lai to hell ensure that we get up by end of 2019/20 at the latest

iwastherein68

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1380
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #81 on: January 19, 2019, 08:53:33 AM »
Stumbled across an interesting (if long winded) article in Four Four Two a couple of hours back.

Looks in some detail into the losses incurred and gambles taken in the Championship.

Well worth a read in anyone's spare time.

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/financial-fair-play-vs-fairy-tales-football-leagues-intractable-fiscal-conundrum
Thanks for a great link mate. I have to say that having read that, I am glad that we have Mark Jenkins to guide us through some pretty murky waters, and not his predecessors. Quite where it all ends up goodness only knows, but the sooner we unload these very overpaid, very average players, and reboot with our own youngsters ,and the best of our affordable acquisitions the better. I for one think that to be the best way forward , and if that is in the Championship, well so be it. 
Gary Megson - True Legend - Restorer of pride

AlbionFan

  • Site Donator
  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 2981
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #82 on: January 19, 2019, 09:41:00 AM »
Whether fans want promotion or not, it's likely the clubs future depends on it.

Personally, I am enjoying the Championship for obvious reasons, but is remaining as a the Championship club sustainable?
Prediction, we are heading for a hung parliament

Droitwich Baggie

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 6033
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2019, 10:22:01 AM »
The Championship is fun because we are winning a few games with attacking football. If we get up, surely we can still attack the lower half teams to still give us that buzz.

colinmax

  • Junior Baggie

  • Offline
  • **

  • 190
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2019, 11:53:59 AM »
The advantage of the Premiership is that you see more of the world's best players and have better media coverage.

The Championship is better because costs are generally lower and you have 4 more home games.

As regards the games ignoring the top 6 or 7 would we really prefer matches against the likes of Cardiff,Burnley and Huddersfield than those against teams such as Leeds,Derby and Norwich?

OldburyWBA

  • Administrator
  • WBA Chairman

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 40222
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2019, 01:06:46 PM »
The advantage of the Premiership is that you see more of the world's best players and have better media coverage.

The Championship is better because costs are generally lower and you have 4 more home games.

As regards the games ignoring the top 6 or 7 would we really prefer matches against the likes of Cardiff,Burnley and Huddersfield than those against teams such as Leeds,Derby and Norwich?

Thats one thing that has never appealed to me, have never felt the urge to go to a game to see any particular player, only ever gone to watch us.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

iwastherein68

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1380
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2019, 08:30:23 PM »
Thats one thing that has never appealed to me, have never felt the urge to go to a game to see any particular player, only ever gone to watch us.
Me too Oldbury, and I have quite enjoyed the fact that I have known very little about opposition players this season.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 08:57:00 PM by iwastherein68 »
Gary Megson - True Legend - Restorer of pride

gerry m

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 2789
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2019, 08:40:41 PM »
Sadly i think it's a case of need not want. Here we are in the Championship and seemingly cannot buy players due to FFP. Parachute payments are supposedly £40m and our wage bill is supposedly £38m. Having said that i am enjoying this season doing well and playing good football. Someone said that the Championship  has got a lot of poor teams but this is a tough division.

overseas baggie

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 2900
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2019, 09:27:14 PM »
Sadly i think it's a case of need not want. Here we are in the Championship and seemingly cannot buy players due to FFP. Parachute payments are supposedly £40m and our wage bill is supposedly £38m. Having said that i am enjoying this season doing well and playing good football. Someone said that the Championship  has got a lot of poor teams but this is a tough division.

It’s not FFP currently stopping us, it’s lack of cash

B_H_Baggie

  • Administrator
  • WBA Manager

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 20414
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #89 on: January 20, 2019, 06:29:57 PM »
To try and safeguard the future of the club as much as possible we all know the money that comes with promotion is absolutely crucial. I genuinely fear for us going forward regardless, if we don't go up then we have to cut costs even further and have an ageing squad that already needs refreshing. However if we do go up we simply can't compete financially so we go back to being a struggling club barely winning a game again.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Jeremy Roland Peace

  • Youth Baggie

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 908
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2019, 08:21:41 AM »
in two minds on this.

if we go up, great, we have had a successful season. but then we go into next season in survival mode. mediocre players that took us down end up staying on there high wages as well.

if we stay in the championship, some will see it as a failed season. i see it as a great chance for the club to rebuild much like we did in the promotion season under Mowbray. we sold players and rebuilt a whole squad for what was one of our most exciting and entertaining seasons for a long time.

tuamigos

  • WBA Manager

  • Offline
  • *******

  • 11615
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2019, 08:57:30 AM »
If we had a choice I'd choose to stay in the Championship unless we have the clout to compete on a day to day basis with rest of the teams in the Prem.
The cold hard facts are that we have to go up for financial reasons and then try to get 38 draws to stay in the greed league.
My old man always said 'You can't educate pork!'

darbolina

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1104
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2019, 10:44:45 AM »
Not me. That is unless we suddenly wake up tomorrow as a club who can and wants to compete to achieve something - a cup win, to push on.

The reality would be we'd be happy to make up the numbers to earn a few bob for the shareholders, players etc.... but the football would be worse, defensive, more losses what's the point of us being in the premier league?

kendo

  • Youth Baggie

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 370
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2019, 11:03:05 AM »
I doubt if we will have to worry to much about that one. Some of the oldies we have got and the out of dates we are linked with does not show to much ambition on that prospect. It is almost like if you know the manager you get a contract, just bring your own zimmer frame.







letmereadposts

  • Baby Baggie

  • Offline
  • *

  • 96
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2019, 12:33:26 PM »
in two minds on this.

if we go up, great, we have had a successful season. but then we go into next season in survival mode. mediocre players that took us down end up staying on there high wages as well.

if we stay in the championship, some will see it as a failed season. i see it as a great chance for the club to rebuild much like we did in the promotion seasony underu Mowbray. we sold players and rebuilt a whole squad for what was one of our most exciting and entertaining seasons for a long time.

My fear is we won’t have the same level of funds available, and as a consequence the least competitive championship squad for a very long time. These fears are valid with the lack of ambition in recruiting properly this month.

My gut says we really need to go straight back up.

paulosull

  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 2944
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2019, 08:29:03 AM »
Need to go up just to get rid of owner if not we could end up like Bolton.

timdon

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1989
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #96 on: January 22, 2019, 09:56:22 AM »
Need to go up just to get rid of owner if not we could end up like Bolton.
And your line of thought to reach this conclusion is what exactly?

skyclad99

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 2110
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2019, 10:17:22 AM »
And your line of thought to reach this conclusion is what exactly?

I am guessing that it will be along the same lines as Mr Peace - a club looks a more attractive proposition when it is in the greed league, so I can understand what he means. However, I dont think that there is anyone on this planet stupid enough to give Mr Lai what he paid out initially whilst we are in our present condition.
What have we done?
And what have we become
In this distance from our Mother
From the gates of late Eden?

Albionic

  • Site Donator
  • Senior Baggie

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 4993
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2019, 10:59:09 AM »
I am guessing that it will be along the same lines as Mr Peace - a club looks a more attractive proposition when it is in the greed league, so I can understand what he means. However, I dont think that there is anyone on this planet stupid enough to give Mr Lai what he paid out initially whilst we are in our present condition.

Its a fair bet that Lai thought he was buying a reasonably secure prem team, 7 years in the league .....

Any new prospective owner would have zero years, an aging squad with a number of loanees which just scrapes out of chumps as the prospect, no where near as attractive a proposition.
value??? £80-100M tops, as we are likely to come straight back down and the players and agents will have taken most of the 1 years premiership cash out of the club.
Lovin the championship, just lovin it !

liverbaggie

  • Reserve Baggie

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 1396
Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2019, 11:42:53 AM »
Why do people think he will sell,why should he?
If ,sorry when we get back to the prem the worldwide advertising if his company must be worth millions to him.
Its a good businessman who owns a company that ticks along nicely and he doesn't have to put his hand in his own pocket,what would you do?
On the other hand at least he doesn't try to run wba in a hands on way like some who love the sound of their own voices.