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Offline ex coseley kid

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2019, 10:46:12 PM »
I hate the Premier League and have absolutely no desire to be in it until the "top six" bugger off to some sort of Euro League. Better still they all go bust. It's is non-competitive, non-sporting, dull and hopeless for everyone other than the few. That gap between that few and everyone else has also all but killed the FA Cup and as for the Carabao Cup - meh!

That said I do understand the clubs need to be in the Premier League.

THIS - exactly this. Take the top six out of it and football has some meaning for the rest of us again. Money has screwed the whole spirit and joy out of the game. Euro league please.

And wherever we are after that mix I'll happily take. Sky and Murdoch, screw yourselves (if I can't say that mods, please make it sound prettier).
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Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2019, 10:23:27 AM »
A couple of points in relation to posts above

@Hull, to maintain a mid table prem club £100m is no longer enough (see fulham), it can be that much a season, there are clearly exceptions but only one which springs to mind is Watford, Soton were generating their cash via sales but still investing it all back in plus money from Billionaire owners

I meant spend £100m next season (if we go up) to give us a fighting chance of being mid table, sorry it wasn't very clear!

If your reason in football is not to move forward then you will end up going backwards...

I want to go back up, if we come down again then so be it, but you always have to look towards promotion or there is no point in being in any league

I know what you mean but what you have said isn't strictly true as there is no promotion from the Premier League.
 It's more important for a team to improve each season once you've got to the Premier league whether that's through league placing or points gained or a better cup run
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Offline Pie

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2019, 11:14:10 AM »
Not read through the whole thread but I'm sure someone will have already answered how I feel.

In an ideal world I would happily stay in the championship for a while as this season has been great entertainment so far.

However in the real world I want us to go up as there are many parts of our club that depend on the money generated by the premier league. No doubt we would have to strip back our assets including players and staff (not just the coaches either) probably resulting in a lower quality of squad and match day experience.

I do also miss watching us on MOTD, especially after a win. makes the whole programme more enjoyable.

Offline SmethDan

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2019, 11:22:31 AM »
Not read through the whole thread but I'm sure someone will have already answered how I feel.

In an ideal world I would happily stay in the championship for a while as this season has been great entertainment so far.

However in the real world I want us to go up as there are many parts of our club that depend on the money generated by the premier league. No doubt we would have to strip back our assets including players and staff (not just the coaches either) probably resulting in a lower quality of squad and match day experience.

I do also miss watching us on MOTD, especially after a win. makes the whole programme more enjoyable.

I wouldn't know about that as following an Albion win I was rarely back in time from my post match celebrations to watch MotD.

And when I was back in time I was usually asleep before we came on either toward or at the end.
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Offline Atomic

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2019, 11:24:04 AM »
I wouldn't know about that as following an Albion win I was rarely back in time from my post match celebrations to watch MotD.

And when I was back in time I was usually asleep before we came on either toward or at the end.


Yep. That's me too.

Offline seteefeet

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2019, 11:31:45 AM »
Not read through the whole thread but I'm sure someone will have already answered how I feel.

In an ideal world I would happily stay in the championship for a while as this season has been great entertainment so far.

However in the real world I want us to go up as there are many parts of our club that depend on the money generated by the premier league. No doubt we would have to strip back our assets including players and staff (not just the coaches either) probably resulting in a lower quality of squad and match day experience.

I do also miss watching us on MOTD, especially after a win. makes the whole programme more enjoyable.
Imagine being on MOTD and not being last  :o

Offline Backofthenet

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2019, 11:40:10 AM »
I would really like us to get into the play-off finals every year and lose. That would be pretty successful but not going up. I know there will be loads who will berate me for this and say I have no ambition. My ambition is to follow and support the Albion (as I have for what is now 52 years since my first match) but sadly there is no enjoyment in playing to survive from the opening day of the season and not trying to win the league.
In a running race I would imagine that every person on the start line is trying to win but in the PL that is not the case.
Whilst Leicester winning the league was brilliant for them I don't think it helped the overall view of the PL because some always throw that in as an argument that anyone can win it. I can't see the so called big clubs allowing that to happen again and if 12 or so clubs aren't even trying that makes their job easier. 

Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2019, 11:59:12 AM »
Imagine being on MOTD and not being last  :o

so most of the time then!
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Offline SmethDan

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2019, 12:03:22 PM »
I would really like us to get into the play-off finals every year and lose. That would be pretty successful but not going up. I know there will be loads who will berate me for this and say I have no ambition. My ambition is to follow and support the Albion (as I have for what is now 52 years since my first match) but sadly there is no enjoyment in playing to survive from the opening day of the season and not trying to win the league..............

Think I can understand your logic to a degree in regards having plenty of good days through the relative seasons etc, but I see things differently. I wasn't at the old Wembley for the Play Off Final win v Port Vale so my experience of that day was limited to the settee in somebody else's house. I was at the new Wembley for the defeat v Derby though and would genuinely hate to go through that feeling again, never mind every season or as a substitute for seeing how we did against Prem' clubs the following year. I'm very definitely out on this one.
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Offline Norfolk Baggie

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2019, 12:51:58 PM »
So to answer the first question.  Yes I do want promotion.  My first reason for this, is that our ambition as a club must always be to play at the very highest standard possible, and this is the Premier League.  My second point is what will happen if we do not.  We have two years of parachute money, and an owner unwilling to invest anything but self generated funds.  Sorry to be pessimistic, but if we are not up within two years it will be a very different Albion we will be watching and we might find that somewhat less entertaining than our current incarnation.

Offline Albion79

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2019, 01:21:22 PM »
As a fan i much prefer the championship, i like the fact there is probably 12-16 teams who start of the season fancy they could go up (there is always a section in every league who are unlikely to challenge)

Giving saturday just gone vs Norwich as example, i really enjoyed the game, would like us to of won of course but it was end to end, two teams trying to play football, trying to win with attacking football and a full house watching on.

However as a club i know the premier league is the place to be purely for the funding and exposure it brings, if you think to where we were as a club in 2002 when we first went up to where we are now as a club in terms of facilities, structures, academy, etc let alone the quality of players we have, it shows the benefits of the premier league money.

Back in the 90's i remember us reguarly playing Oldham and Port Vale at the same level, where as we reached the 'promised land', they didnt and gradually declined and look at them now.

All the above is how the premier league helped the club, but as a fan the novelty had long wore off before last seasons relegation. I also think how you approach the premier league is a big factor, go up targeting certain games, waving the white flag at others, it becomes tedious.

However using Wolves as an example, i like what they have done, they have gone up, had a go at teams, not changed their style too much and beat a tough opponent in the FA cup and will now fancy there chances of getting quite far, i like their approach.

Dont get me wrong i still think they will finish midtable and get nowhere near europe (as some of their deluded fans thought) but i like the way the way they have approached matches and as a fan if we went up, i would like us to do that, we wouldnt have the money they did but we can still play with style, we might get a few batterings along the way but we would also get some surprise results too.

Thats the only way as a fan i would like us to go back up, having a go when we get there, and if you get relegated, you try to get back up and have a go, either way promotion and relegation are exciting! And as much stick as Peace and Jenkins got / get, the way we are run means we dont have to have a firesale like lots of other clubs, it means we can keep good players so we should always be challenging for promotion for the first season or two after relegation.

There will come a point where that doesnt come off but i think you have to be careful with 3 / 5 / 10 year plans anyway because in football, nobody lasts that long to fulfill the plans!

Offline Oldbury24

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2019, 01:50:55 PM »
From experience it seems to me that the ideal scenario for a club without third party financial backing is to accept the inevitability of being a yo-yo club between the top two divisions.   The key being to have players on salary clauses and spending within the clubs income budget.  This avoids ending up with an almost desperate need avoid relegation which results in appointments like the capped one (lets face it the appointment wasn't really needed by the club, it was only JP's panic that he might lose out on his bumper payday that bought him in).   

Without the desperation to stay up it's possible to actually have a go at even the top teams, so you get your few days in the sun.  Yes, you strive to stay up but relegation becomes another chance for promotion rather than the end of the footballing world.  It does mean that you end up shopping for bargains eg Mulumbu, Odenwengie, Ollson, GMac or picking out the odd gem on loan eg Lukaku and Barnes this year but I struggle to think of any big name's that have come into the club and had half the positive impact that they did. It is obvious that the recruitment team is all important to success but hopefully Holgate is a sign of the quality to come.

In this scenario you admittedly end up with a squad that is not quite good enough for the Premier League. However with a good manager and the odd run of form you may stay up one year (Huddersfield) or even several (Albion) but there is no guarantee of an extended stay (Albion).  However, following relegation you have the financial resources to keep a few (Dawson, JRod, Phillips) but also sell a few (Evans, Foster, Chadli) re-invest well and you have a team that is now very competitive in the Championship.   After a year of having a go but struggling in the PL you then have a year of goals and wins in the Championship which will hopefully lead to promotion (if not first time around ,then within the two years).

So its not so much about not wanting promotion but more about accepting relegation for what it is.  That without serious financial backing there is no way of guaranteeing an extended stay in the Premier League and in Fulhams case even £100 million doesn't look enough.   With this model, on relegation the club are already planning for the next promotion tilt and your finances are built around.   An acceptance of this might also free up the managers to actually have a go at the cups please!!!! This is where the glory lies for the fans and there is nothing like seeing the Albion win at Wembley (Kevin Donavon is still a hero).

I can only talk up the virtues of this model from seeing it working first hand.  It doesn't seem to work for all clubs but seemed to suit us.  We don't have a sugar daddy and we know what we are :)

   



« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 02:01:00 PM by Oldbury24 »

Offline keithowba86

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2019, 02:57:01 PM »
i want to definately see us promoted as the following will happen...

The club gets £100million
Lai takes it all out, then sells us for a slight loss

equals a profit for mr lai and we get a new owner who 'may' pump some cash in!!

Offline leeiswba

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2019, 07:15:00 PM »
i want to definately see us promoted as the following will happen...

The club gets £100million
Lai takes it all out, then sells us for a slight loss

equals a profit for mr lai and we get a new owner who 'may' pump some cash in!!

That can’t happen unfortunately

Offline BigFrank20

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2019, 07:27:40 PM »
I wasn't at the old Wembley for the Play Off Final win v Port Vale so my experience of that day was limited to the settee in somebody else's house. I was at the new Wembley for the defeat v Derby though and would genuinely hate to go through that feeling again, .
You know what mate you have made me remember that a good day out at Wembley has a lot of appeal
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Offline costa blanca baggie

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2019, 08:54:17 PM »
You know what mate you have made me remember that a good day out at Wembley has a lot of appeal
COYB SOTV
A good WINNING day.
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Offline WBArgo

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2019, 09:01:31 PM »
This season has reminded me how soulless the Premier League is, and I don't miss it for what it is - especially the irritating 'pundits' who are overly critical to make a name for themselves...amongst many other things.

But...it has to be said. As a human being, it is nature to want the best and be competitive; and what is the point of football if you don't want to see your team compete at the highest level, or enjoy the thrill of a promotion?

So, I'm torn. I'd like to play in the Premier League without the plastic nonsense which it comes with. I don't think is realistic though and so I am unsure.
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Offline wba_1996

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2019, 01:25:27 AM »
If Bournemouth, a League 1-sized club with no financial advantage over other Prem clubs, can get promoted and comfortably stay midtable with a young squad playing decent football, then anyone can. You need a decent head coach, a clear recruitment strategy coming from above the level of the current head coach, a good scouting network and an owner/board who plan for the long term.

We're a bigger club than the majority of bottom-half Prem sides, we're at no disadvantage other than the fact we employ crap head coaches and have awful recruitment and zero long-term (or even medium-term) planning. Whether Dowling and Moore are the men to create a long-term recruitment strategy (I have serious doubts), and whether Jenkins would even let them (again, serious doubts) we will have to wait and see.

Offline overseas baggie

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2019, 01:54:48 AM »
If Bournemouth, a League 1-sized club with no financial advantage over other Prem clubs, can get promoted and comfortably stay midtable with a young squad playing decent football, then anyone can. You need a decent head coach, a clear recruitment strategy coming from above the level of the current head coach, a good scouting network and an owner/board who plan for the long term.

We're a bigger club than the majority of bottom-half Prem sides, we're at no disadvantage other than the fact we employ crap head coaches and have awful recruitment and zero long-term (or even medium-term) planning. Whether Dowling and Moore are the men to create a long-term recruitment strategy (I have serious doubts), and whether Jenkins would even let them (again, serious doubts) we will have to wait and see.

You’ve hit the nail on the head, and the right people heading up re recruitment strategy would pay for themselves many times over.

I’d offer Ashworth double what’s he’s on at Brighton plus a share of the profits, regardless of whether those profits come from transfer dealings or from Premier League money (so that selling players isn’t the only option).

Build a strong Academy, bring the players through, sell a few gems for big money, invest in top young players from the Championshop/League 1/abroad and use transfer profits to build a strong squad capable of doing well in the PL.  The Southampton model, other than that they invested appallingly after selling some of their stars.  Maybe it’s even the Bournemouth model if they sell Wilson and Brooks for £90m and invest in 5 or 6 quality replacements.

Offline FallOutBoy

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2019, 01:05:59 PM »
If Bournemouth, a League 1-sized club with no financial advantage over other Prem clubs, can get promoted and comfortably stay midtable with a young squad playing decent football, then anyone can. You need a decent head coach, a clear recruitment strategy coming from above the level of the current head coach, a good scouting network and an owner/board who plan for the long term.

We're a bigger club than the majority of bottom-half Prem sides, we're at no disadvantage other than the fact we employ crap head coaches and have awful recruitment and zero long-term (or even medium-term) planning. Whether Dowling and Moore are the men to create a long-term recruitment strategy (I have serious doubts), and whether Jenkins would even let them (again, serious doubts) we will have to wait and see.

I won't argue with the second part of that, but I have to take issue with the first. Bournemouth do have a well-heeled owner who supports them through cash injections (or at least did to get them up). They got fined nearly £5 million by the football league for breaking FFP

Story - https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11743/11426730/bournemouth-agree-4-75m-settlement-with-efl-for-breach-of-ffp-rules

Offline Backofthenet

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2019, 01:29:26 PM »
The question posed about wanting promotion is really interesting and has seen some well thought out responses supported with solid reasoning.
I would invite someone from the club to state their objective which will obviously point out they do want promotion.
We can then see if they back the words with action. I'm not meaning a gung ho attititude in the transfer window but what we have mostly agreed on to be the real strengthening of our squad with quality signings.
I also accept that these are not easy to find but the names with have been 'linked with' correctly or otherwise almost bring me to despair.

Offline Droitwich Baggie

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2019, 01:44:28 PM »
If Phillips does go, it will that our management and heirach don't want to go up.

Offline overseas baggie

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2019, 07:08:18 PM »
I won't argue with the second part of that, but I have to take issue with the first. Bournemouth do have a well-heeled owner who supports them through cash injections (or at least did to get them up). They got fined nearly £5 million by the football league for breaking FFP

Story - https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11743/11426730/bournemouth-agree-4-75m-settlement-with-efl-for-breach-of-ffp-rules

Yes but Bournemouth owner can’t spend more than their wage cap limit under STCC, notwithstanding his wealth.  Can spend a lot on transfer fees but this players still need to be paid.

They were lucky with their fine.  QPR effectively fined £42m (was on another scale and they got relegated)

Offline WBArgo

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2019, 10:33:46 PM »
If Bournemouth, a League 1-sized club with no financial advantage over other Prem clubs, can get promoted and comfortably stay midtable with a young squad playing decent football, then anyone can. You need a decent head coach, a clear recruitment strategy coming from above the level of the current head coach, a good scouting network and an owner/board who plan for the long term.

We're a bigger club than the majority of bottom-half Prem sides, we're at no disadvantage other than the fact we employ crap head coaches and have awful recruitment and zero long-term (or even medium-term) planning. Whether Dowling and Moore are the men to create a long-term recruitment strategy (I have serious doubts), and whether Jenkins would even let them (again, serious doubts) we will have to wait and see.

The problem is a bit deeper than that though, at least to some I assume.

Bournemouth's time will come, as will Watford, Brighton and various others. We were once the talk of the poorer sides and poster-boys of doing well on a budget, then Swansea followed etc; years before us it was Charlton too who had good youth players. These clubs all had new ideas and philosophies which gained some fame. But ultimately, outside of the top 6 - it's a revolving door and at some stage you get kicked out, replaced by a newer, more fashionable model of running a football club...for the time being at least.

There is no real long-term outside of the top 6. Bournemouth have been in the Premier League less than we were and have been in there for 5 minutes in reality. When/if Eddie Howe goes, there's a good chance it will crumble. Perhaps not immediately but maybe 3 years after or so; it only takes one bad season and a bit of bad luck and you are down.

This is why people are fed-up, because teams like Bournemouth are seen as the bench mark. And although that may be the reality, you have to wonder what is the point if finishing in mid-table is the dream?

The only way of cracking it these days is trying the Wolves route which is getting lucky with a high-spending billionaire. Even then, there's no guarantees and it could still end in tears.
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Offline Oldbury24

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Re: Who really wants promotion?
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2019, 06:52:58 PM »
If Bournemouth, a League 1-sized club with no financial advantage over other Prem clubs, can get promoted and comfortably stay midtable with a young squad playing decent football, then anyone can. You need a decent head coach, a clear recruitment strategy coming from above the level of the current head coach, a good scouting network and an owner/board who plan for the long term.

We're a bigger club than the majority of bottom-half Prem sides, we're at no disadvantage other than the fact we employ crap head coaches and have awful recruitment and zero long-term (or even medium-term) planning. Whether Dowling and Moore are the men to create a long-term recruitment strategy (I have serious doubts), and whether Jenkins would even let them (again, serious doubts) we will have to wait and see.

Bournemouth have spent nearly £70 million quid this year, with a net spend of nearly £50 million.   That may be Premier League small fry but could not be done without somebody having deepish pockets.