Author Topic: System / Tactics / Personnel  (Read 66299 times)

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Adder

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #475 on: June 27, 2020, 10:14:26 AM »
We have to approach each game as though we are the underdogs and outwork the opposition - that should be the mindset from here on in.
Part of that is getting an early grip on the game in midfield. I agree Krov and Livermore in front of Sawyers should now be used.
Pereira has to play so that would be on the left. I think I would be tempted to give Robinson a go through the middle and Diangana would be fitted in on the right - hopefully he'll improve further with a couple of games under his belt and with him, Pereira, Krov and Sawyers in the team we should be able to keep hold of the ball.

Hope Bilic reminds them they have to outwork the opposition and the players get on the pitch with the right energy levels i.e. not under-cooked and not over-trained, whatever it is something's not right at the moment. 

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #476 on: June 27, 2020, 10:17:37 AM »
Interesting thoughts.  Post Blues I advocated going in with a false 9 (effectively 4-6-0).  Our best attacking outlets in order of ability are Pereira, Diangana, Krovinovic.  They all MUST play.  Livermore and Phillips are very lucky to still be on the team sheet, we have back up options in Grosicki, Robinson, Edwards, Barry, Brunt, Harper. 

We are wasting a position selecting a forward because none are up to the mark.  I'd doubt if Austin could last much longer than 45mins.  HRK is not good enough.

This formation would result in us being tougher to break down.  On reflection last night we conceded a cheap goal, which was avoidable, from not one single challenge from a player in yellow and green.  I think we'd have all been satisfied with a 0-0. 

We'd still be capable of scoring with a False 9, if the interplay and movement from our attacking midfielders / wingers was sharp enough. 

alex1

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #477 on: June 27, 2020, 11:24:41 AM »
I think alot depends on getting the right balance in midfield. I would argue that 5 should be the bare minimum of attacking or creative players. Yesterday we started with just 3 forwards plus Pereira supporting them. Furlong and Gibbs hardly crossed the half way line. That wasn't enough to put the Brentford defence under any sustained pressure.

I don't think you can play Livermore AND Sawyers. They are both too defensive. Livermore tries to support the attack but his passing and touch are not good enough for a creative role. Sawyers is better in that , but for some reason, hardly ventures into the opposition box. You need players making runs forward into the box as that's how lots of goals are scored. You can't leave it all to Pereira for the creativity. We definitely looked more threatening after Krovinovic came on and Livermore went off.
Harper can maybe develop into a creative midfielder, but he needs to impose himself more in games, want the ball and make the right runs etc.
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liverbaggie

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #478 on: June 27, 2020, 03:07:57 PM »
We don't have time to wait for Diangana to improve in a couple of games mate.
We need goals and wins he's a suoersub type guy.

zippyandbungle

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #479 on: June 27, 2020, 05:51:57 PM »
I think alot depends on getting the right balance in midfield. I would argue that 5 should be the bare minimum of attacking or creative players. Yesterday we started with just 3 forwards plus Pereira supporting them. Furlong and Gibbs hardly crossed the half way line. That wasn't enough to put the Brentford defence under any sustained pressure.

I don't think you can play Livermore AND Sawyers. They are both too defensive. Livermore tries to support the attack but his passing and touch are not good enough for a creative role. Sawyers is better in that , but for some reason, hardly ventures into the opposition box. You need players making runs forward into the box as that's how lots of goals are scored. You can't leave it all to Pereira for the creativity. We definitely looked more threatening after Krovinovic came on and Livermore went off.
Harper can maybe develop into a creative midfielder, but he needs to impose himself more in games, want the ball and make the right runs etc.
I think you can play them...but you can’t play JUST them in the middle
If there is a 3 and you include Krov, this instantly improves the area....if you drop Livermore for Harper or Semi, this then increases the athleticism and gives us quite a good core
Whatever happens we will not get top two with the players playing the formation Bilic has picked since the return
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beechyboy90

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #480 on: June 27, 2020, 07:14:16 PM »
We need goals from somewhere be tempted to play Townsend over gibbs because at least he can shoot. Also the slow place of games and heightened importance on free kicks might even suggest giving brunt a go. All I know is itvaint working so we need to do something different
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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #481 on: June 27, 2020, 07:24:47 PM »
We need goals from somewhere be tempted to play Townsend over gibbs because at least he can shoot. Also the slow place of games and heightened importance on free kicks might even suggest giving brunt a go. All I know is itvaint working so we need to do something different

I realise you're just throwing ideas out there but for a team that's short of goals the solution isn't changing the left back. In addition Gibbs has 3 Albion goals, Townsend just the 1.
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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #482 on: June 27, 2020, 07:46:08 PM »
We need goals from somewhere be tempted to play Townsend over gibbs because at least he can shoot. Also the slow place of games and heightened importance on free kicks might even suggest giving brunt a go. All I know is itvaint working so we need to do something different

Townsend, Kanu and Zohore are all league one players. They shouldn’t be anywhere near our starting 11.
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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #483 on: June 27, 2020, 07:50:18 PM »
People are focusing on the wrong things and it's probably to be expected because of how bad we are. I've seen loads of suggestions of changes which fix nothing. Thankfully Bilic seems to see the actual issues as evidenced by the changes he made at HT, sadly it was too late and I don't think Zohore is the answer.

Quite simply, the double-pivot doesn't work: Livermore is terrible at football and Sawyers is the worst defensively of any centre mid I think I've ever seen. They need another body in there as we have no other options to replace them (Barry, Brunt and Harper don't work), hence it needs to be a 433. Krov has proven he is best as an 8, and was unjustifiably dropped when that midfield was actually working.

Striker issue is simple for me at this point, all 3 are dogs**t. Austin would have got the nod but his fitness is Sunday League level. We have a proven Championship goalscorer in Robinson who has experience of playing as a striker. He's far quicker, fitter and better technically than the other 3. That also allows us to play an extra winger, which is the position we are strongest in. Grady and Grosicki can rotate on the left for me.

Back 5 are fine, I think the best 5 are the ones currently starting and any changes just make us worse in possession for marginal gains defensively.

Livermore then becomes the only weak link technically, which you'd hope we can carry as everyone else is comfortable on the ball:

Johnstone
Furlong - Ajayi - Hegazi - Gibbs
Livermore - Sawyers - Krovinovic
Pereira - Robinson - Diangana/Grosicki

Pie

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #484 on: June 27, 2020, 09:02:24 PM »
People are focusing on the wrong things and it's probably to be expected because of how bad we are. I've seen loads of suggestions of changes which fix nothing. Thankfully Bilic seems to see the actual issues as evidenced by the changes he made at HT, sadly it was too late and I don't think Zohore is the answer.

Quite simply, the double-pivot doesn't work: Livermore is terrible at football and Sawyers is the worst defensively of any centre mid I think I've ever seen. They need another body in there as we have no other options to replace them (Barry, Brunt and Harper don't work), hence it needs to be a 433. Krov has proven he is best as an 8, and was unjustifiably dropped when that midfield was actually working.

Striker issue is simple for me at this point, all 3 are dogs**t. Austin would have got the nod but his fitness is Sunday League level. We have a proven Championship goalscorer in Robinson who has experience of playing as a striker. He's far quicker, fitter and better technically than the other 3. That also allows us to play an extra winger, which is the position we are strongest in. Grady and Grosicki can rotate on the left for me.

Back 5 are fine, I think the best 5 are the ones currently starting and any changes just make us worse in possession for marginal gains defensively.

Livermore then becomes the only weak link technically, which you'd hope we can carry as everyone else is comfortable on the ball:

Johnstone
Furlong - Ajayi - Hegazi - Gibbs
Livermore - Sawyers - Krovinovic
Pereira - Robinson - Diangana/Grosicki

I agree with this. We have to play 4-3-3 from now on. I'm kind of perplexed as to why we went back to the other formtion against Brum and first half at Brentford.

I still beleive we will get enough points to see us over the line in the automatics. Just made it harder for ourselves.

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #485 on: June 27, 2020, 09:42:22 PM »
Townsend, Kanu and Zohore are all league one players. They shouldn’t be anywhere near our starting 11.

I think Zohore would struggle to make the mark in League Two.

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #486 on: June 27, 2020, 10:30:14 PM »
Robinson who has an eye for a goal, a bit of pace and is a striker should be played up front with pace and quality in support of him. Pereira in the number 10 role as that's his best position. Diangana and Grosicki out wide as they are our quickest and most direct wingers. I'd exchange Livermore for Krov alongside Sawyers depending on the opposition. So if we are faced with all out defence we can be more attacking, else if it's a tricky away game Livermore can start and put himself about. At the back Townsend has more desire and heart than Gibbs, who didn't deserve his recall. Ajayi and Bartley together have been our best centre back partnership. Not afraid to push up the pitch unlike Hegazi and they score more from free kicks and corners. Right back Furlong or O'Shea. I'd probably go with O'Shea at the moment as we are in a slump and he is better defensively.

This is how I would set us up:


                         Robinson

                               Pereira
Diangana                                      Grosicki
                 Sawyers, Livermore or Krov

Townsend,     Ajayi,      Bartley,        O'Shea or Furlong

                         Johnstone

That leaves the impact subs as:
Austin
Phillips
Edwards

I would expect that front four with Krov sometimes in support and the subs to do a lot of damage and the back-line is the most dependable we have and the only settled back four that has looked solid this season.

baggiebof

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #487 on: June 27, 2020, 11:13:13 PM »
I'm not saying he can't but I don't understand why people think Robinson could play up front as a lone striker for us? He played on the left wing for Preston and as the deeper of two centre forwards for Sheffield United (unsuccessfully arguably). Our game requires the striker to.hold the ball and link the play, I just don't see Robinson as that man. I do get the desperation as we do not have good options but in terms of profile, Robson-Kanu suits us the best out of the admittedly weak options.

liverbaggie

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #488 on: June 28, 2020, 02:17:47 PM »
Robinson wouldn't need to hold the ball up with two wingers the midfield just need to give them the ball its up to robbo to be in the box on the end of crosses etc

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #489 on: June 29, 2020, 05:01:49 PM »
               Johnston

Furlong   Ajayi      Hegazi    Gibbs

          Sawyers
                         Krovinovic

Diangana                           Grozicki   

          Periera
                      Robinson

when we are 3 up bring on Livermore



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AlbionFan

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #490 on: June 29, 2020, 06:36:46 PM »
               Johnston

Furlong   Ajayi      Hegazi    Gibbs

          Sawyers
                         Krovinovic

Diangana                           Grozicki   

          Periera
                      Robinson

when we are 3 up bring on Livermore

I really like your line up, but, there’s always a but, Townsend over Gibbs for me
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zippyandbungle

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #491 on: June 29, 2020, 06:40:14 PM »
               Johnston

Furlong   Ajayi      Hegazi    Gibbs

          Sawyers
                         Krovinovic

Diangana                           Grozicki   

          Periera
                      Robinson

when we are 3 up bring on Livermore
Who’s doing the tackling ?
If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

Albionic

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #492 on: June 29, 2020, 07:22:47 PM »
Who’s doing the tackling ?

Since the come back seems to be a lot less tackling going on. If we are winning 3-2 or 9-8 frankly I don't care, so stuff the tackling !
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zippyandbungle

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #493 on: June 29, 2020, 07:38:36 PM »
Since the come back seems to be a lot less tackling going on. If we are winning 3-2 or 9-8 frankly I don't care, so stuff the tackling !
Strangely you e actually hit it on the head
We are clearly sitting deeper...we shouldn’t, say balls to it and play like we can...
If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

Albionic

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #494 on: June 29, 2020, 08:39:40 PM »
Strangely you e actually hit it on the head
We are clearly sitting deeper...we shouldn’t, say balls to it and play like we can...

thanks (I think)
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zippyandbungle

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #495 on: June 29, 2020, 09:12:37 PM »
thanks (I think)
It was meant in the positive 👍
If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

baggie82

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #496 on: June 29, 2020, 11:34:25 PM »
Who’s doing the tackling ?

We wouldn't need as much tackling as we'd have more of the ball and wouldn't give it away as cheap. The opposition would also be cacking themselves given the range of different threats facing them. We'd have more legs to press the opposition to win it back quickly when we do lose it, like a championship version of Man City.

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #497 on: July 02, 2020, 08:55:55 PM »
We reverted to a 4-3-3 last night. Number of changes in personnel which we cannot be sure were tactical. rotational or to protect players who were carrying knocks.

The one clear tactical change was the introduction of Krovinovic in the double 8 ahead of Sawyers. That seems to make us a lot better going forward that and O'Shea playing right back gives Pereira more scope to play further up the pitch.

I am not sure that the shape accommodates both Pereira and Diangana. It strikes me that both Robinson and Grosicki are better options on the opposite wing to Pereira.   
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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #498 on: July 10, 2020, 07:17:00 AM »
Picking a few things up from the Bilic's Wednesday tactical masterclass.

The shape was 4-2-3-1 but for the first time with inverted wingers which was interesting. The other tweak was Livermore playing generally behind Sawyers in the double pivot.

The players executed the plan to perfection. The first goal demonstrates the havoc that inverted wingers can cause.

Grosicki receives the ball from Townsend in the wide left channel. Townsend continues his run inside Grosicki the Derby defender follows the  run to the edge of the box where he stops in line with the rest of the back 4 and lets Townsend run into an offside position.

At this stage Derby are well set to deal with the thing that isn't going to happen, a cross to a very well marshalled Austin. Grosicki moves inside on his right foot and picks the pass to one of the two runners (Pereira makes the same run as Diangana except from a deeper position)  making diagonal runs across the box through a defensive line that is still defending a cross.

The spatial awareness Diangana shows in executing the finish is exceptional but there isn't a defender within a yard of him when he collects the ball.

The other point about the wide players on Wednesday was generally without ball they stayed wide and even in possession really didn't cut infield until they were in Derby's half. During the first half what little threat Derby offered came down our left through Bogle. It was noticeable that Grosicki paid much closer attention to him during the second half and that threat pretty much dried up.

Whether this set up was something designed to counter Derby or a tactical shift remains to be seen.     



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baggiebof

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #499 on: July 10, 2020, 09:04:49 AM »
I feel like it may have been a Derby specific tactic but I liked it. It's a role that certainly suits Livermore more in my opinion and reduces Sawyers defensive deficiencies as he isn't the deepest midfielder whilst allowing him to play line breaking passes slightly further up the field. Although we did not dominate possession like we normally would have and this Livermore/Sawyers switch may be one of the reasons for that, hence why I think it was a Derby specific tactic. Should we get promoted, we will have more games where we do not have the most possession so this approach will be required more.

To touch on the wide players, be it a 4231 or a 433 i want either Grosicki or Robinson starting left and Pereira or Diangana starting right. I feel there's good balance with both wide players being inverted and also between players who generally like the ball to feet (Pereira/Diangana) and ones that are happy to threaten in behind (Grosicki/Robinson).