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Offline Standaman

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #225 on: June 14, 2019, 02:09:59 AM »
Bilic's stock formations at West Ham were 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1.

We haven't got a functioning version of either with the current personnel that is before any potential departures. Looking at Bilic at West Ham and assuming that will be his template going forward I would make the following observations. 

Back 4 there is nothing particular required of the back 4 in both cases the full backs can either attacking or more defensive. The key question here is how deep the team sits defensively and to what extent they play out from the back Bilic's teams are not noted for a high press and out of possession will tend to adopt a 3/4 block i.e. probably look to play 10 yards further forward than a team adopting the traditional deep sitting block.

In terms of playing out from the back West Ham adopted a mixed approach if a team backed off they would play through the midfield but they were equally comfortable hitting the forwards early when pressed or when counter attacking opportunities presented themselves.

This style is a real challenge for defenders and those used to playing in a deep block like ours often struggle to adapt. I suspect part of the West Ham's defensive problem was their squad moving from an Allardyce deep sitting block to this.


Midfield

In both 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 Billic plays a central midfield 3 with 2 deep sitting Central Mids and either an advanced playmaker or a more traditional number 10 playing ahead of them. The role of double pivot is pretty much the same in both systems which is to provide both defensive cover and initiate attacks.

The advanced central midfielder's role is varies depending on the shape. In a 4-3-3 the role is an advanced playmaker (think Lanzini) who plays behind the front 3 picking passes for the forwards. Whereas in a 4-2-3-1 the role is a more traditional attacking midfielder charged with not only link up play but also carrying a goal scoring threat like Payet. 

Out wide in a 4-3-2-1 the wide players are closer to traditional wingers but unlike a Pulis side they are less rigid and the 3 behind the lone striker interchange positions.

Forwards

In both formations the Centre Forward is a target man and is the focal point of the attack. The importance of the role cannot be over emphasised. While there is a great deal of positional fluidity around the Centre Forward his role is fixed playing the width of the 18 yard box and engaging the oppositions Centre Backs providing the platform for others to work off.

In the 4-3-3 the Centre Forward is joined by 2 wide attackers. It is important to differentiate between the two types of wide player. Jacob Murphy is a Winger and Michail Antonio is a wide attacker not only are they very different in physique but whereas Antonio can pretty much do everything that Murphy can out wide he is also an effective as a striker and could even be pressed into service as a lone striker. This is not about the quality of the player it is about their function in the team and the skill sets they have.

Looking at the current squad the best fit for either formation might be

4-3-3

GK Johnstone

RB Wilson
LB Gibbs
CB Dawson
CB Hegazi

CM Field
CM Livermore
AM Harper

WAR Phillips
CF Rodreguiz
WAL Robson Kanu


4-2-3-1

GK Johnstone

RB Wilson
LB Gibbs
CB Dawson
CB Hegazi

CM Field
CM Livermore

RW Phillips
AM Harper
LW Brunt

CF Rodreguiz

The above highlights the work that the club has to do. Not only are there players we would not ideally see as first choices but there are question marks about the suitability of some in the role and also question marks over the future of at least 5 of the players.

I have Harper down as the attacking midfielder I have doubts about him in that role in a 4-2-3-1 and in any event he is out of contract at the end of the month.

Rodreguiz is not a target man but at the moment he along with HRK who isn't either are the only forwards we have at the club. At £10m it looks likely that Jay Rod will go.

The midfield is the usual mess. I would pencil in Field's name other than that I think we need to bring in another Central Midfielder Livermore/Brunt as cover perhaps although frankly Livermore earns way too much to be cover in a Championship squad in an ideal world I would move him on.

Phillips is the right footed player who probably has the skill set for the wide forward role yet is entering into the last year of his contract and the only position where we have any depth of cover is right footed wide players. e.g. Edwards/Leko/Burke. Can Bilic get a tune out of Burke? If he can that might be a huge plus for the squad but if I had to place my faith anywhere I would be looking to Edwards.

Gibbs might well leave but would be fine if we retain him.

At Centre back aside from the fact that both Hegazi and Dawson could potentially leave I might have some doubts about either of them operating in a 3/4 block. Younger more fleet of foot defenders might be required but given everything else we have to do if they don't leave I would go with that partnership.

Wilson gets the RB spot by default although there is always the returning Nyom. Okay add a RB to the list.

As I was typing this I felt overwhelmed by the extent of the task. We know it is a complete rebuild but at least we know what we are working toward even if there will be question marks over the existing squad. I doubt we will have the perfect squad come the end of the window hopefully the key compoents will be in place and enough quality to give Bilic a fighting chance of promotion.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 07:30:33 AM by Standaman »
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Offline Adder

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #226 on: June 14, 2019, 07:52:40 AM »
Can Burke become our Antonio ? Pace, power, directness (potentially), aerial ability. Antonio has an impressive work rate and as Stan says above it would be a major bonus if Bilic can get that work rate and a tune out of Burke.

Offline overseas baggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #227 on: June 14, 2019, 09:18:01 AM »
Bilic's stock formations at West Ham were 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1.

We haven't got a functioning version of either with the current personnel that is before any potential departures. Looking at Bilic at West Ham and assuming that will be his template going forward I would make the following observations. 

Back 4 there is nothing particular required of the back 4 in both cases the full backs can either attacking or more defensive. The key question here is how deep the team sits defensively and to what extent they play out from the back Bilic's teams are not noted for a high press and out of possession will tend to adopt a 3/4 block i.e. probably look to play 10 yards further forward than a team adopting the traditional deep sitting block.

In terms of playing out from the back West Ham adopted a mixed approach if a team backed off they would play through the midfield but they were equally comfortable hitting the forwards early when pressed or when counter attacking opportunities presented themselves.

This style is a real challenge for defenders and those used to playing in a deep block like ours often struggle to adapt. I suspect part of the West Ham's defensive problem was their squad moving from an Allardyce deep sitting block to this.


Midfield

In both 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 Billic plays a central midfield 3 with 2 deep sitting Central Mids and either an advanced playmaker or a more traditional number 10 playing ahead of them. The role of double pivot is pretty much the same in both systems which is to provide both defensive cover and initiate attacks.

The advanced central midfielder's role is varies depending on the shape. In a 4-3-3 the role is an advanced playmaker (think Lanzini) who plays behind the front 3 picking passes for the forwards. Whereas in a 4-2-3-1 the role is a more traditional attacking midfielder charged with not only link up play but also carrying a goal scoring threat like Payet. 

Out wide in a 4-3-2-1 the wide players are closer to traditional wingers but unlike a Pulis side they are less rigid and the 3 behind the lone striker interchange positions.

Forwards

In both formations the Centre Forward is a target man and is the focal point of the attack. The importance of the role cannot be over emphasised. While there is a great deal of positional fluidity around the Centre Forward his role is fixed playing the width of the 18 yard box and engaging the oppositions Centre Backs providing the platform for others to work off.

In the 4-3-3 the Centre Forward is joined by 2 wide attackers. It is important to differentiate between the two types of wide player. Jacob Murphy is a Winger and Michail Antonio is a wide attacker not only are they very different in physique but whereas Antonio can pretty much do everything that Murphy can out wide he is also an effective as a striker and could even be pressed into service as a lone striker. This is not about the quality of the player it is about their function in the team and the skill sets they have.

Looking at the current squad the best fit for either formation might be

4-3-3

GK Johnstone

RB Wilson
LB Gibbs
CB Dawson
CB Hegazi

CM Field
CM Livermore
AM Harper

WAR Phillips
CF Rodreguiz
WAL Robson Kanu


4-2-3-1

GK Johnstone

RB Wilson
LB Gibbs
CB Dawson
CB Hegazi

CM Field
CM Livermore

RW Phillips
AM Harper
LW Brunt

CF Rodreguiz

The above highlights the work that the club has to do. Not only are there players we would not ideally see as first choices but there are question marks about the suitability of some in the role and also question marks over the future of at least 5 of the players.

I have Harper down as the attacking midfielder I have doubts about him in that role in a 4-2-3-1 and in any event he is out of contract at the end of the month.

Rodreguiz is not a target man but at the moment he along with HRK who isn't either are the only forwards we have at the club. At £10m it looks likely that Jay Rod will go.

The midfield is the usual mess. I would pencil in Field's name other than that I think we need to bring in another Central Midfielder Livermore/Brunt as cover perhaps although frankly Livermore earns way too much to be cover in a Championship squad in an ideal world I would move him on.

Phillips is the right footed player who probably has the skill set for the wide forward role yet is entering into the last year of his contract and the only position where we have any depth of cover is right footed wide players. e.g. Edwards/Leko/Burke. Can Bilic get a tune out of Burke? If he can that might be a huge plus for the squad but if I had to place my faith anywhere I would be looking to Edwards.

Gibbs might well leave but would be fine if we retain him.

At Centre back aside from the fact that both Hegazi and Dawson could potentially leave I might have some doubts about either of them operating in a 3/4 block. Younger more fleet of foot defenders might be required but given everything else we have to do if they don't leave I would go with that partnership.

Wilson gets the RB spot by default although there is always the returning Nyom. Okay add a RB to the list.

As I was typing this I felt overwhelmed by the extent of the task. We know it is a complete rebuild but at least we know what we are working toward even if there will be question marks over the existing squad. I doubt we will have the perfect squad come the end of the window hopefully the key compoents will be in place and enough quality to give Bilic a fighting chance of promotion.

Very good summary.  I’m sure we will use our 5 permitted loans again, but in terms of recruitment it’s certainly going to need the January window as well to get us even close to a balanced squad.

Offline divinewind

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #228 on: June 14, 2019, 12:22:41 PM »
We will definitely use the loan system again, probably with a view to permanent signing if we get promoted. I think this is one of the areas that Bilic will excel, some decent players at other clubs not quite able to hold down a first team place would relish to play for Bilic,...hopefully.
But we need to have them on a season loan, not to be left in limbo like last season when Barnes went back.

Offline FallOutBoy

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #229 on: June 14, 2019, 12:48:28 PM »
It's no use trying to apply Bilic's previous formations and tactics to our current squad; we will probably look very different come August.

Hopefully Bilic will play a full part in helping to shape the new squad, so we don't leave him lumbered with players that don't fit what he wants to do.

Offline baggiebof

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #230 on: June 14, 2019, 01:58:34 PM »
It's no use trying to apply Bilic's previous formations and tactics to our current squad

I disagree, managers are generally wed to a formation and/or style of play. Think Pulis, you know what you''re going to get. think Guardiola, you know what you are going to get and I could go on. The fact we know Bilic likes a 4231/433 with two holding midfielders gives us clues to start speculating what we may look like.

Offline Albionic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #231 on: June 14, 2019, 02:34:10 PM »
If SB goes with 2 holding MF players I would hope that it’s a Mulumbu  / Yacob type pairing ie a disruptor with someone with legs along side him giving both a platform and the energy to move forward at pace. We have missed this SO much for far too long
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Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #232 on: June 14, 2019, 04:47:50 PM »
I disagree, managers are generally wed to a formation and/or style of play. Think Pulis, you know what you''re going to get. think Guardiola, you know what you are going to get and I could go on. The fact we know Bilic likes a 4231/433 with two holding midfielders gives us clues to start speculating what we may look like.

I think he meant it's no use with regard to current players rather than the formation.
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Offline FallOutBoy

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #233 on: June 14, 2019, 04:54:53 PM »
I disagree, managers are generally wed to a formation and/or style of play. Think Pulis, you know what you''re going to get. think Guardiola, you know what you are going to get and I could go on. The fact we know Bilic likes a 4231/433 with two holding midfielders gives us clues to start speculating what we may look like.

We can speculate on formation yes, but my point is that we don't know what the squad will look like, so can't tell who will be playing where come the start of the season.

Offline Scooby Doo

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #234 on: June 14, 2019, 08:35:05 PM »
The British game has evolved immensely since Bilic has been gone. I'd read nothing on what he has used before.

Offline Adder

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #235 on: June 14, 2019, 08:42:33 PM »
If SB goes with 2 holding MF players I would hope that it’s a Mulumbu  / Yacob type pairing ie a disruptor with someone with legs along side him giving both a platform and the energy to move forward at pace. We have missed this SO much for far too long
What we've missed for longer is an attacking midfielder and some creativity.

Offline baggiebof

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #236 on: June 14, 2019, 08:53:43 PM »
I think he meant it's no use with regard to current players rather than the formation.

We can speculate on formation yes, but my point is that we don't know what the squad will look like, so can't tell who will be playing where come the start of the season.

Sorry I misunderstood, yes I agree, hard to know who will and wont be here.

Offline wba_1996

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #237 on: June 14, 2019, 09:36:16 PM »
Massive rebuild needed, I make it (assuming 4231 and before any departures):

GK
RB x2
CB
CM x2
AM
LW x2
ST

And then if we over-rely on the loan market and don't get promoted we're even more screwed next summer. Anyone wondering why I expected us to walk the league and was critical of Moore from the off will now understand exactly why.

Going to need to hit the European market for free transfers and some cheaper talent. Then as long as we've got a decent number of permanent signings we can top up with the standard loans for players like Dowell, Woodburn etc.

Offline Standaman

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #238 on: June 14, 2019, 11:30:57 PM »
What I was trying to do in my earlier post was demonstrate the difference between the two formations favoured by Bilic and broadly what personnel are required to make them work. The next part of the post was to measure where we are and what gaps exist today. I know there are going to be departures but the whole squad is not going to vanish overnight and even some of the more saleable players could be here next season.

What we should be aiming for is a clear first choice in each role within Bilic's basic tactical template. We then need a spare and possibly 1 or 2 utility players to bulk out the squad and provide a little bit of depth. In general I would spend the vast bulk of the resources on the first XI. I would also be using our academy graduates wherever possible to be the understudy. So for instance at CB if retain two of Dawson Hegazi and Bartley I would expect Fitzwater and O'Shea to be the back up options.

What I would not do unless forced into it would be hiring back up options like Sakho Hoolahan etc..

Even to get to first base making the unrealistic assumption that nobody leaves. We probably need a first choice RB,CF*CM,AM and LW.

*In theory Rodreguiz could be the first choice CF but remember that both 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 work with a target man style CF and Rodreguiz isn't which brings me to another key point. If a senior pro does not fit the template we should try to move them on. Whatever Rodreguiz's release clause is we should not be afraid to trade him out rather than making an ill fitting first choice or worse still an ill fitting back up option.

With regard to the loan market I am torn. I understand that fans want to secure players on contracts in the hope of some coninuity but the plain truth is there is too much talent in the loan market for the club to forgoe it as an option. I could make a solid case for nearly half of the top 10 players in the division last season being loanees.   
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Offline baggiebof

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #239 on: June 15, 2019, 07:39:35 AM »
I would spend the vast bulk of the resources on the first XI. I would also be using our academy graduates wherever possible to be the understudy. So for instance at CB if retain two of Dawson Hegazi and Bartley I would expect Fitzwater and O'Shea to be the back up options.

 If a senior pro does not fit the template we should try to move them on. Whatever Rodreguiz's release clause is we should not be afraid to trade him out rather than making an ill fitting first choice or worse still an ill fitting back up option.

With regard to the loan market I am torn. I understand that fans want to secure players on contracts in the hope of some coninuity but the plain truth is there is too much talent in the loan market for the club to forgoe it as an option. I could make a solid case for nearly half of the top 10 players in the division last season being loanees.

The three parts above that I've left from your post standaman are the most important to me. There comes a time when we have to utilise the young players and really give them a chance, albeit as first replacements and that time is now. If this season is a disaster then we will need them next, the experience will have done them good. We absolutely should not be paying backup players good money.

Regarding senior pros, if they dont fit the template then sure, sell. I'd go further, any decent offers I'd sell too. Most are coming out of their prime and haven't been playing particularly well for the last two years. You'd maybe be hesitant to let the boys at the back go but I'm not so sure they'll be suited to the defensive line Bilic seems likely to want.

We absolutely have to target loans: Barnes, Gayle, Abraham, James, Mount, Wilson...were all stars last year and I could go on. In my opinion the idea would be to get a couple of first team loanees and no more but definitely go for the best ones available on the market that you can tie down for the whole season. I'd steer clear of 6-month loans after the Barnes experience last year.

Offline Standaman

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #240 on: June 15, 2019, 09:24:04 AM »

Regarding senior pros, if they dont fit the template then sure, sell. I'd go further, any decent offers I'd sell too. Most are coming out of their prime and haven't been playing particularly well for the last two years. You'd maybe be hesitant to let the boys at the back go but I'm not so sure they'll be suited to the defensive line Bilic seems likely to want.


I broadly agree with this, I only hesitate because of the scale of the task and on an indivdual basis there is a level of talent  that is going to be difficult for us to match as a Championship club. For instance Gibbs is almost certainly entering his post peak years as a full back but I struggle to see us recruiting a comprable talent in the Championship. Even without departures it is easy to identify 5 positions that we need to recruit for and there comes a point where intergrating a dozen or more players will swallow the season.
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Offline slate

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #241 on: June 15, 2019, 11:10:26 AM »
I broadly agree with this, I only hesitate because of the scale of the task and on an indivdual basis there is a level of talent  that is going to be difficult for us to match as a Championship club. For instance Gibbs is almost certainly entering his post peak years as a full back but I struggle to see us recruiting a comprable talent in the Championship. Even without departures it is easy to identify 5 positions that we need to recruit for and there comes a point where intergrating a dozen or more players will swallow the season.

First off, thanks for your previous post- really informative and must have taken you some time. Appreciated.

There is clearly a massive overhaul required due to several very poor transfer windows with respect to permanent players. Bilic will need to identify new players quickly, be backed by the club and then convince them to move promptly if we are serious about making a push for promotion this season. The latter two points clearly being the most difficult.

We can't have another "normal" West Brom transfer window and rely on shoehorning in some last minute loan signings. This summer window is potentially going to define what kind of club we are for the next few years.


Offline Adder

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #242 on: June 15, 2019, 04:24:54 PM »
First off, thanks for your previous post- really informative and must have taken you some time. Appreciated.

There is clearly a massive overhaul required due to several very poor transfer windows with respect to permanent players. Bilic will need to identify new players quickly, be backed by the club and then convince them to move promptly if we are serious about making a push for promotion this season. The latter two points clearly being the most difficult.

We can't have another "normal" West Brom transfer window and rely on shoehorning in some last minute loan signings. This summer window is potentially going to define what kind of club we are for the next few years.
Bilic may have ideas on a couple of players but it should also be a case of getting his views on players that Dowling and co have already targeted. It has to be a joint recruitment exercise.
While we know certain gaps in the squad, there will be delays on certain things as it's not all under our control i.e. it may take until mid or late July or even later for decent offers to come in for the likes of Dawson, Rodriguez, Hegazi, Gibbs, Phillips.
There also has to be Dowling + Bilic consensus on which youngsters are going to be used more this season which in turn affects the shopping list of players we need to bring in. Morgan Rogers may not be 'fully ready' but he could have more talent at his disposal than anyone we are likely to sign.

Offline zippyandbungle

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #243 on: June 15, 2019, 06:30:35 PM »
                      Johnstone/Hart

Holgate.       Bartley.    Hegazi.   Gibbs

              Noble.          Livermore
 Phillips.                                    Edwards

               Rondon.    Gayle

This team is not beyond the realms ,sell Dawson, JRod and a couple of others , gives us some movement on Rondon and Gayle , noble as player/ass coach, Holgate loan

Why not ?
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Offline cads_ap_albion

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #244 on: June 15, 2019, 06:36:17 PM »
                      Johnstone/Hart

Holgate.       Bartley.    Hegazi.   Gibbs

              Noble.          Livermore
 Phillips.                                    Edwards

               Rondon.    Gayle

This team is not beyond the realms ,sell Dawson, JRod and a couple of others , gives us some movement on Rondon and Gayle , noble as player/ass coach, Holgate loan

Why not ?

Rondon is gone. The club will not miss out on £16m for him, given JR will go for £5m. Both will be snapped up.

Gayle and Gibbs will go to the premier League.

I hope you are right come Sept 1st but I reckon we might have 4 of those names only next season.
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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #245 on: June 15, 2019, 07:47:24 PM »
                      Johnstone/Hart

Holgate.       Bartley.    Hegazi.   Gibbs

              Noble.          Livermore
 Phillips.                                    Edwards

               Rondon.    Gayle

This team is not beyond the realms ,sell Dawson, JRod and a couple of others , gives us some movement on Rondon and Gayle , noble as player/ass coach, Holgate loan

Why not ?


Bilic will not play 4-4-2 (thankfully).

Rondon won't be here. I wouldn't be certain on his release clause being met though, this is the last year of his contract and clubs know that. We may let him go for a lesser fee.

Gayle is not coming back and wouldn't fit into a Bilic team anyway.

Mark Noble is on a reported £50K per week. No way will we pay that and I can't see us signing a 32 year old midfielder.

Offline WBArgo

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #246 on: June 15, 2019, 08:34:17 PM »
Noble won't come here - he's just had one of his best seasons for West Ham and is still firmly a regular at his boyhood club.

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Offline BB74

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #247 on: June 15, 2019, 09:00:24 PM »
Noble?  ;D cloud cuckoo land!

Offline Scooby Doo

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #248 on: June 15, 2019, 09:36:02 PM »
                      Johnstone/Hart

Holgate.       Bartley.    Hegazi.   Gibbs

              Noble.          Livermore
 Phillips.                                    Edwards

               Rondon.    Gayle

This team is not beyond the realms ,sell Dawson, JRod and a couple of others , gives us some movement on Rondon and Gayle , noble as player/ass coach, Holgate loan

Why not ?

Whilst that side is well beyond the realms, it's not just a team we need. It's a squad.

Offline Standaman

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #249 on: June 15, 2019, 10:47:41 PM »
Generally I would refrain from commenting on possible transfers here but the one thing the appointment of Bilic should firmly lay to rest is any prospect of Gayle returning to the club. He is not the type of target man Centre Forward that makes either of Bilic's preferred formations work.

For those who want evidence that Bilic was not wholly in control of transfers at West Ham I give you Chicharito who is in many ways similar to Gayle. With Sakho sold and Caroll generally injured what Bilic needed was a target man CF what he got was Chicharito, who Bilic ended up trying to shoehorn into the line up as a wide striker (sound familiar?) and here is another surprise he lost his job shortly thereafter.   
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