West Brom Dot Com

Author Topic: System tactics personnel  (Read 18212 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline johnny Cash

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3971
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #200 on: March 14, 2019, 12:51:43 PM »
You make some very good points Greg but don't get too hung up on the possession stats. Shan set us up to deliberately invite Swansea to have the lion's share of possession so the outcome stats were inevitable. I think last night was a pragmatic win at all costs performance and we managed to do so. I take the positives from that. What is blatantly clear is that we need a new man at the helm, and quickly, who fully understands this division tactically. I would also disagree about Tosin. Given his background he is a very poor passer of the ball IMO.

The problem with conceding possession is you have to be good defensively. We conceded possession last night and still allowed them to have 7 or 8 very good chances. That is poor.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 01:02:52 PM by johnny Cash »

Offline Standaman

  • WBA Coach
  • ******
  • Posts: 6602
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #201 on: March 15, 2019, 09:07:47 PM »
I wouldn't normally comment on a one off game because there is often very specific circumstances and we are looking at a caretaker coach who isn't going to be around beyond one or two games however the game offers a very obvious counterpoint to what had gone before. 

We ditched any pretence of a passing game. Shape was a very deep sitting 4-2-3-1 with Gayle playing the lone striker who was isolated and largely ineffective. A double pivot of Brunt and Livermore sat in front of a back four. Transitions were laboured although not as laboured as they were against Ipswich.

Swansea (let's be honest not a team of household names) passed us off the park box to box but were pretty ineffective in both boxes although had McBurnie been on the pitch I doubt we have got away with a clean sheet. We defended in numbers but individually like much of the time under Pulis we didn't defend well and constantly gifting the opposition possession only ever invites pressure.

If the squad can only play that way it is plainly nowhere the best squad in the league as some claim and the sooner it is broken up the better.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 10:49:11 PM by Standaman »
Standaman - Born to be a Baggie.

Online Droitwich Baggie

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5667
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #202 on: March 15, 2019, 09:43:54 PM »
I wouldn't normally comment on a one off game because there is often very specific circumstances and we are looking at a caretaker coach who isn't going to be around beyond one or two games however the game offers a very obvious counterpoint to what had gone before. 

We ditched any pretence of a passing game. Shape was a very deep sitting 4-2-3-1 with Gayle playing the lone striker who was isolated and largely ineffective. A double pivot of Brunt and Livermore sat in front of a back four. Transitions were laboured although not as laboured as they were against Ipswich.

Swansea (let's be honest not a team of household names) passed us off the park box to box but were pretty ineffective in both boxes although had McBurnie been on the pitch I doubt we have got away with a clean sheet. We defended in numbers but individually like much of the time under Pulis we didn't defend well and constantly gifting the opposition possession only ever invites pressure.

If the squad can only play that way it is plainly nowhere the best squad in the league as some claim and the sooner it is broken up the better.

I   
This is what I said during the game and after.
The players have to train to pass.
Pass and go should be the way, together with making themselves available for the next pass.
Also they must expect the ball from ANY where.

Offline baggiejohn

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2942
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #203 on: March 15, 2019, 10:11:39 PM »
This is what I said during the game and after.
The players have to train to pass.
Pass and go should be the way, together with making themselves available for the next pass.
Also they must expect the ball from ANY where.

I thought "all things to all men" was a failed Graeme Jones strategy.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

Online Droitwich Baggie

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5667
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #204 on: March 15, 2019, 10:13:45 PM »
I thought "all things to all men" was a failed Graeme Jones strategy.
Strange reply.
Why do you say that?
I was saying that our players have to learn how to pass to one another.

Offline baggiejohn

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2942
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #205 on: March 15, 2019, 10:35:01 PM »
Strange reply.
Why do you say that?
I was saying that our players have to learn how to pass to one another.

This is what you said

"Also they must expect the ball from ANY where."

That suggests an "all things to all men" strategy.

Fluidity & multi option is a fine intent, but in a fast moving sport, carries major risk, as our previous coaching staff found out to their cost.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

Offline The Black Pearl

  • WBA Coach
  • ******
  • Posts: 7059
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #206 on: March 15, 2019, 10:35:39 PM »
This is what I said during the game and after.
The players have to train to pass.
Pass and go should be the way, together with making themselves available for the next pass.
Also they must expect the ball from ANY where.

Here in lies the problem, passing a football was neglected by Pulis, it will take a long while to re gain a passing philosophy, it was ironic that we faced Swansea, a side built now and in the past on the passing game, I remember in our promotion to the Premier League around 10 years ago, we went to Swansea for a mid week game, they passed us off the park but we won 1-0, not much changes does it?
But I think we all want to see an effective passing Albion side.
Notes from a small island!

Online Droitwich Baggie

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5667
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #207 on: March 15, 2019, 10:40:55 PM »
This is what you said

"Also they must expect the ball from ANY where."

That suggests an "all things to all men" strategy.

Fluidity & multi option is a fine intent, but in a fast moving sport, carries major risk, as our previous coaching staff found out to their cost.
Cheers for thge explaination.
But what stops our players expecting a ball (also miskicked) rather than being surprised that it has come to them and then dawdle and can't react?

Offline baggiejohn

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2942
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #208 on: March 15, 2019, 11:05:05 PM »
Cheers for thge explaination.
But what stops our players expecting a ball (also miskicked) rather than being surprised that it has come to them and then dawdle and can't react?


Not sure I'm seeing that.

Most of our players receiving a ball have asked for it, or see an opportunity for an interception.

At games, I'm not seeing too many misplaced passes, although I will admit we do sometimes have a problem with getting the correct weight of pass.

If you're refering to passes in the final third & around the penalty area, I think (at our level) you have to expect a low percentage of success. IMO you have to have a special type of player to pull those off on a regular basis. Man City, Chelsea etc pay a lot of money, both for & to players of that calibre.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

Online Droitwich Baggie

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5667
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #209 on: March 15, 2019, 11:19:27 PM »
Unfortunately, a lot of players are just not concentrating.
They have tunnel vision and can be drawn into the melee (dragged to where the crowd is) rather than making them selves available and thinking "Oops, I must watch the ball". I have noticed over too many years and too many games, how often the ball goes past (headed or flicked) all the players from a corner over to the other side of the pitch. No one seems to be prepared to react. They must learn to expect the unexpected (miskicks etc.).
We can exploit this by having a player far wide from that corner kick.

Offline Standaman

  • WBA Coach
  • ******
  • Posts: 6602
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #210 on: March 16, 2019, 09:06:19 AM »
The key to anything other than Pulisball is passing be that from the back or through the midfield after a turnover of possession. The basic technique is not difficult or put it this way if a kid in the under 14's can't master it then he would have little hope of making the Under 15's. 

The key is movement and movement that anticipates the pass rather than movement from one fixed position to another. Swansea had this we didn't. When this group of players is under stress they stop moving they take up fixed defensive positions and stop showing for passes the options for the player on the ball reduce they either give the ball away or attempt the impossible pass a booming 40 yard cross field ball that seldom works but looks good when it comes off.

This seems to be deeply entrenched in this group of players DNA and new arrivals seem to quickly become infected by it. I fear for any coach who tries to change this without the very necessary clear out. 
Standaman - Born to be a Baggie.

Offline Standaman

  • WBA Coach
  • ******
  • Posts: 6602
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #211 on: April 14, 2019, 09:43:25 AM »
Well here we are again having come full circle

Yesterday we played 3-5-2. With Gayle and Rodriguez up top and we looked a threat scored 4 goals. Maybe Moore and Jones were on to something.

Or maybe there were differences and maybe those differences were important.

 1. Shan was able to use Holgate rather Phillips/Adarabioyo as RWB this is a major improvement.

 2. he swapped Bartley and Hegazi with Bartley playing at the centre of the 3 and Hegazi on the left and Bartley looked a lot more at home on that position.

3. In general we were a lot more direct in our play and didn't try to pass out from the back.

Obviously this is a one off but interestingly had we gone down this route it renders nearly a fifth of the squad redundant i.e. the wingers Phillips, Murphy, Montero, Edwards and Leko. Unless they could fill in as wing backs (Edwards/Phillips) or play centrally Phillips then they aren't going to get a lot of game time.

I think this highlights the importance of hiring to a tactical blueprint without exception. We don't keep or hire anyone who doesn't fit the blueprint but unless you know what the blueprint is you can't do this. 
 

 
Standaman - Born to be a Baggie.

Offline overseas baggie

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2819
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #212 on: April 14, 2019, 12:04:41 PM »
Well here we are again having come full circle

Yesterday we played 3-5-2. With Gayle and Rodriguez up top and we looked a threat scored 4 goals. Maybe Moore and Jones were on to something.

Or maybe there were differences and maybe those differences were important.

 1. Shan was able to use Holgate rather Phillips/Adarabioyo as RWB this is a major improvement.

 2. he swapped Bartley and Hegazi with Bartley playing at the centre of the 3 and Hegazi on the left and Bartley looked a lot more at home on that position.

3. In general we were a lot more direct in our play and didn't try to pass out from the back.

Obviously this is a one off but interestingly had we gone down this route it renders nearly a fifth of the squad redundant i.e. the wingers Phillips, Murphy, Montero, Edwards and Leko. Unless they could fill in as wing backs (Edwards/Phillips) or play centrally Phillips then they aren't going to get a lot of game time.

I think this highlights the importance of hiring to a tactical blueprint without exception. We don't keep or hire anyone who doesn't fit the blueprint but unless you know what the blueprint is you can't do this.


Agreed, although I wouldn’t call all of the others redundant as we need cover and depth in those key positions.

You didn’t mention Johansen, who I think now adds a lot of energy to the 3-5-2 formation in CM which we didn’t have until January.

Offline mulliganstired

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3813
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #213 on: April 14, 2019, 02:16:22 PM »
Somewhere along the way some of us pointed out that 352 was OK at home until the change of setup, when we started basically winning away and drawing at home with 433.

352 is also a hell of a lot better if you're not passing to Bartley or Livermore around the D!

Offline Standaman

  • WBA Coach
  • ******
  • Posts: 6602
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #214 on: April 15, 2019, 06:55:30 AM »

Agreed, although I wouldn’t call all of the others redundant as we need cover and depth in those key positions.

You didn’t mention Johansen, who I think now adds a lot of energy to the 3-5-2 formation in CM which we didn’t have until January.

Yes Johansen looked like the type of dynamic central midfielder that I hoped he would be when he signed. Although I think Phillips could work in the role. It is a flat 3 in the middle like it was in the 4-3-3 but with Johansen being the one Central Mid who has licence to get forward as Phillips did in the 4-3-3.

My point is that Montero, Murphy and Leko who are really out and out wingers they don't add depth they are specialists in a position we don't have. If an ideal squad consists of a first choice player and a spare and we are playing 3-5-2 we need 6 Centre Backs, 4 Wing Backs, 6 Central Midfielders and 4 Strikers.

We have 3 Strikers 4 Centre Backs 3 wing backs and a mess of central midfielders too many of whom are either specialist DM's or AM's who have played the bulk of their careers in teams that don't play in that shape.

The point of managing our recruitment and retention to a specific shape and style of play is key. There was no point in having Attacking Midfielders or ball players under Pulis just as now there is no point in having wingers if we are playing with wing backs.


Standaman - Born to be a Baggie.

Offline baggiebof

  • Youth Baggie
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #215 on: April 17, 2019, 12:22:14 PM »
I agree with you standaman but I could see Murphy being effective as one of the front 2 for us and expect him to get some game time in that position over the next 4 games allowing us to rest Gayle and Rodriguez as required. The aforementioned 3 with Robson-Kanu would give us the 4 strikers.

Offline mulliganstired

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3813
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #216 on: April 17, 2019, 02:03:54 PM »
We have a decent First XI to put out in this shape, that's the main thing, we will need a benchful too.

Offline Atomic

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2969
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #217 on: April 17, 2019, 02:31:05 PM »
We have a decent First XI to put out in this shape, that's the main thing, we will need a benchful too.


We don't have that unfortunately. Standaman is bang on right with everything he says. We do not have strength in depth for this system but hopefully we can get through 6 or 7 games without needing strength in depth. Over to the gods.

"God is an Albion fan, oh god is an Albion fan"

Offline baggiebof

  • Youth Baggie
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #218 on: June 13, 2019, 03:16:25 PM »
I thought it would be worth revisiting this now we have a new Head Coach. Bilic has regularly played a 4231 throughout his career so here is what we currently have left fitting into this system:

Johnstone/Bond/Palmer

Nyom/Wilson
Dawson/Bartley
Hegazi/Fitzwater/O'Shea
Gibbs/Townsend

Livermore/Field

Phillips/Edwards
Harper
Brunt/Leko

Rodriguez/Rondon/Robson-Kanu/Burke

I have included those out on loan like Rondon and Nyom. A cursory look at the squad list above shows that we are short of numbers in the central midfield areas. Obviously there are the likely departures of Rondon, Harper and others. Let's say the following players leave: Nyom, Harper, Rondon and Rodriguez (that may be conservative), our best XI would look like this:

Johnstone

Wilson
Dawson
Hegazi
Gibbs

Livermore
Field

Phillips
Edwards
Brunt

Robson-Kanu

Looking at that we would need a starting right back, an upgrade in the defensive midfield department or certainly more options, a central attacking midfielder and a starting striker.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 03:17:58 PM by baggiebof »

Offline TheJacko2000

  • WBA Manager
  • *******
  • Posts: 10984
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #219 on: June 13, 2019, 03:26:24 PM »
Expect Brunty to retain his deep lying central midfield role. Can't see Livermore passing muster with Slav, it's his first test for me how quickly he bins Jake.
Proud to be a Baggie. BOING BOING.

Offline miggybaggy

  • Youth Baggie
  • ***
  • Posts: 587
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #220 on: June 13, 2019, 03:43:46 PM »
I thought it would be worth revisiting this now we have a new Head Coach. Bilic has regularly played a 4231 throughout his career so here is what we currently have left fitting into this system:

Johnstone/Bond/Palmer

Nyom/Wilson
Dawson/Bartley
Hegazi/Fitzwater/O'Shea
Gibbs/Townsend

Livermore/Field

Phillips/Edwards
Harper
Brunt/Leko

Rodriguez/Rondon/Robson-Kanu/Burke

I have included those out on loan like Rondon and Nyom. A cursory look at the squad list above shows that we are short of numbers in the central midfield areas. Obviously there are the likely departures of Rondon, Harper and others. Let's say the following players leave: Nyom, Harper, Rondon and Rodriguez (that may be conservative), our best XI would look like this:

Johnstone

Wilson
Dawson
Hegazi
Gibbs

Livermore
Field

Phillips
Edwards
Brunt

Robson-Kanu

Looking at that we would need a starting right back, an upgrade in the defensive midfield department or certainly more options, a central attacking midfielder and a starting striker.

Dear God! I was elated earlier....now I'm depressed again. :o

Offline albion59

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2811
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #221 on: June 13, 2019, 03:46:36 PM »
I thought it would be worth revisiting this now we have a new Head Coach. Bilic has regularly played a 4231 throughout his career so here is what we currently have left fitting into this system:

Johnstone/Bond/Palmer

Nyom/Wilson
Dawson/Bartley
Hegazi/Fitzwater/O'Shea
Gibbs/Townsend

Livermore/Field

Phillips/Edwards
Harper
Brunt/Leko

Rodriguez/Rondon/Robson-Kanu/Burke

I have included those out on loan like Rondon and Nyom. A cursory look at the squad list above shows that we are short of numbers in the central midfield areas. Obviously there are the likely departures of Rondon, Harper and others. Let's say the following players leave: Nyom, Harper, Rondon and Rodriguez (that may be conservative), our best XI would look like this:

Johnstone

Wilson
Dawson
Hegazi
Gibbs

Livermore
Field

Phillips
Edwards
Brunt

Robson-Kanu

Looking at that we would need a starting right back, an upgrade in the defensive midfield department or certainly more options, a central attacking midfielder and a starting striker.
That team you picked second would get us relegated! Half of them won't be here at the start of the saeson I hope!!

Offline baggiebof

  • Youth Baggie
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #222 on: June 13, 2019, 03:56:34 PM »
Expect Brunty to retain his deep lying central midfield role. Can't see Livermore passing muster with Slav, it's his first test for me how quickly he bins Jake.

If he had a midfielder next to him who could get up and down and was a brilliant ball-winner alongside him, then maybe, but not for me.

 
That team you picked second would get us relegated! Half of them won't be here at the start of the saeson I hope!!

It is what I anticipate we would be left with losing the players I'd expect to lose without bringing any in. Of course we will bring some in so don't panic!! I'am also not convinced that would relegate us but we wouldn't be in the promotion mix, that's for sure.


Offline OldburyWBA

  • Administrator
  • WBA Chairman
  • *****
  • Posts: 40017
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #223 on: June 13, 2019, 04:04:10 PM »
Expect Brunty to retain his deep lying central midfield role. Can't see Livermore passing muster with Slav, it's his first test for me how quickly he bins Jake.

Then that will be his first mistake, this midfield needs totally rejuvenating with legs and people who can tackle when needed, Brunt has neither of those abilities. Hopefully Livermore will be gone and Brunt will be a bench warmer, but then you fully expected these type of comments when you posted but not really bites from people, just replies from those who disagree.

Also I hope we do not revisit the Morrison and Myhill options and due to wages the Barry option although he would be the ideal player to sit in that deep lying role as he has been the best player there in recent years.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 04:06:13 PM by OldburyWBA »
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline gazberg

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 1086
Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #224 on: June 13, 2019, 05:24:39 PM »
Yes i'll be worried if Brunt retains his CM role. I'm hoping Bilic brings in a younger, box-to-box type who gets forward. Livermore and Brunt should not be starting in CM.