Author Topic: System / Tactics / Personnel  (Read 66301 times)

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zippyandbungle

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #775 on: November 09, 2020, 09:28:55 PM »
its not often I question your thinking Stan, but on this one I have to.
Surely fee paid doesn't equal place in the selection stakes. If a very expensive player turns out to be a very expensive crock of brown stuff, you don't play him. Embarrassing yes, but sometimes you have to admit to errors and take the consequences.
Unless you have had that player for twelve months and deliberately stated that you the head coach...wanted him in.
That puts Grady in the position of must start.
If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

Laguna Baggie

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #776 on: November 09, 2020, 10:18:46 PM »
This whole discussion brings a tear to my eye when I look at my Baggies calendar and see Willie Johnston as Mr November.......

Dexy

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #777 on: November 09, 2020, 11:34:13 PM »
I like to stick to the 532 / 352 , its not ideal I know but does cover a few of our weak areas for now . If we play Utd and put on another decent show I'd play the same again against the Blades.
With do many players 'learning on the job 'I think sticking to one system for a while would help.
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Atomic

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #778 on: November 09, 2020, 11:43:01 PM »
I like to stick to the 532 / 352 , its not ideal I know but does cover a few of our weak areas for now . If we play Utd and put on another decent show I'd play the same again against the Blades.
With do many players 'learning on the job 'I think sticking to one system for a while would help.

I would stick to it as well. A club in our position has to be solid and organised and we looked the part yesterday and we cant keep changing systems.

The plus here is it gives us chance to get two strikers on the pitch. We have a lack of goals and Grant and Robinson are our most likely source. It also means potentially we can have Pereira and Diangana coming off the bench late on if we need to open the game up. Those two against tiring defenders are a lot more beneficial than the likes of Phillips and Sawyers especially when Pereira is less likely to be picked up by our opponents.

We are a couple of injuries away from problems with this system admittedly. That is a squad deficiency because Bilic never intended to play this way he was forced into it really and it goes against his philosophy which makes me question how long he will persevere with it.

Dexy

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #779 on: November 09, 2020, 11:49:30 PM »
I would stick to it as well. A club in our position has to be solid and organised and we looked the part yesterday and we cant keep changing systems.

The plus here is it gives us chance to get two strikers on the pitch. We have a lack of goals and Grant and Robinson are our most likely source. It also means potentially we can have Pereira and Diangana coming off the bench late on if we need to open the game up. Those two against tiring defenders are a lot more beneficial than the likes of Phillips and Sawyers especially when Pereira is less likely to be picked up by our opponents.

We are a couple of injuries away from problems with this system admittedly. That is a squad deficiency because Bilic never intended to play this way he was forced into it really and it goes against his philosophy which makes me question how long he will persevere with it.
Id switch Pereira for Krov in it outfield player wise , I just feel we need to settle and steady up a bit .
I'm convinced wins will come in it but suspect by Sheff Utd we'll be trying something else that won't work.
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Standaman

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #780 on: November 10, 2020, 09:39:47 AM »
To clarify what I meant when I said you can't spend big money (wages and fees) on players and not play them. I do not mean they play regardless of form, fitness or tactical fit. However not playing them is a measure of inefficiency and that is a relative measure.

It does not matter in the grand scheme the Premier League finance that the fee is modest the fact that for the club it is a big chunk of the playing budget and it is sitting on the side lines. The smaller the relative budget the more troubling it is. The Zohore transfer was annoying but in the Championship didn't impact too much in part because we were one of the richer clubs and can afford to waste resources. In the Premier League with one of the smaller budgets we simply can't waste resources which is why the Burke transfer for instance was such a disaster.

This brings me onto why am so annoyed by the Diangana transfer and Bilic's sanctioning of it. If the plan is 3-5-2 or any other 3 at the back variant then we don't need wingers at all unless they can play as wing backs. Bear in mind we came out of the blocks with a back 3 and played it at least 50% of the time so it must have been in our Head Coach's mind to do so.

It get's worse though. We started last season with a 4-2-3-1 with Diangana wide left Pereira central and Phillips wide right. Because of injury and loss of form we switched to a 4-3-3 with Pereira wide right and from January Robinson and Grosicki as inverted wingers wide left. This also facilitated a shuffle around in the midfield to accomodate Krovinovic in a double 8 with Livermore and Sawyers playing a deep playmaking role in the 6.

Diangana does not fit in a 4-3-3 with Pereira or for that matter a 3-4-3. However do the signings of Robinson and Krovinovic make sense if you aren't playing a 4-3-3? Does the signing of Robinson make sense with Grant almost regardless  of formation if the plan was to sign Robinson as a striker as opposed to a wide forward.

We had the players in the building we saw the issues or we should have. Not playing good and expensive (for us) players because of a lack of foresight and maybe the Head Coach's emotional commitment to a group of players is vexing and one of the reasons why we will go down.

 
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 09:43:08 AM by Standaman »
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Albionic

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #781 on: November 10, 2020, 10:01:41 AM »
However not playing them is a measure of inefficiency and that is a relative measure.  I cannot argue with this, its just true.
I am not going to comment on the merits of different formations and the fit of our players to those formations, I'm not a football professional and I don't feel competent to answer how (for example) Periera, Diangana & Krov can play in a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1 or whatever.

My simplistic view is whether we had prior sight or not, whether SB agitated for a signing or not, if the player is not performing he cannot play to the detriment of the club, if this is embarrassing or difficult to swallow - TOUGH!

BTW, this is why I am so freaking annoyed about Matt Phillips keep getting on the pitch, he contributes nothing in fact I would argue he detracts,  so why do it, again and again! 

I don't know (or care) if SB is being stubborn / stupid / overly loyal or he's embarrassed but he MUST sacrifice some of the apparently sacred cows.
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Adder

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #782 on: November 10, 2020, 10:10:11 AM »
I'd stick with the same for the United match. It feels strange leaving our most talented player Pereira out but it's just a better balance in the middle three when Krov plays as he's more of a genuine attack minded midfielder and less of a No 10.
We need the same work ethic and hopefully stick one or two chances away.

MarkW

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #783 on: November 10, 2020, 11:54:00 AM »
Utd will probably persevere with their diamond midfield so I agree with Adder, it probably is fine to stick to the same shape as Vs Spurs. I noted that our pass map/average positions had Livermore deep in front of the back three, with the wing backs and Krov and Gallagher almost playing as a flat 4. If we stick with this, we'd end up with a nice 4 v 3 at the back (back three plus Livermore Vs two strikers plus Fernandes), our wing backs pick up theirs, and we give up a numerical advantage to their defensive midfield or centre backs, depending on how we press. It's not novel or going to cause Utd any new headaches but it's sensible enough.

On a broader note, I thought at the time the signing of Diangana smacked of convenience and the playing becoming available, rather than a larger transfer strategy. I listened to a good podcast from Zonal Marking about teams that get promoted, and by and large survival in your first season boils down to two things:

Be hard to score against
Have a way to score goals

I did think "well duh", but it's noticeable that we don't have a specific way of scoring goals (other than a few corner routines), and we are leaky at the back.

All the more damning is that we are the only team in the bottom three to be ahead of our Expected Goals for this season. That is, we've scored more goals than we should have. The other four teams around us are all lagging, indicating that perhaps with a change of fortune they will start to get a few more goals. These things often have a habit of regressing towards the mean.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 11:58:22 AM by MarkW »
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Standaman

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #784 on: November 22, 2020, 11:32:37 AM »
Bilic now seems to have settled for 3 at the back.

Quite how he configures the team in front of it is in a state of flux. 3-5-2 seems to be the preferred option. Yesterday saw both Pereira and Diangana play centrally ahead of Gallagher and Sawyers in a sort of 3-4-2-1 although Diangana generally played ahead of Pereira but not really alongside of Grant.  Whether this was by design or because of the natural inclinations of the player is difficult to tell.

The jury is still out as to whether we can get Diangana and Pereira on the pitch at the same time in a coherent and balanced set up. 
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baggie82

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Re: System / Tactics / Personnel
« Reply #785 on: November 22, 2020, 01:23:37 PM »
Bilic now seems to have settled for 3 at the back.

Spurs and Man Utd are totally different propositions to Sheff Utd and Palace and even yesterday we ended the match with a back four. The most likely change is from a 5-4-1 to a 3-4-3.