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Offline baggiebof

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2018, 10:12:44 AM »
Morning all

Looking forward to Hull away on Saturday - a little bit of free time at work so decided to revert to being ten years old again and started writing down the best 11/tactic available for this season.

Ok, we are going to play 3 at the back - Jones' appointment will dictate that.
We are also going to play Harvey Barnes in the number 10 role - his lack of positional discipline to play CM or wide will dictate that.

We are currently persisting with playing 3 CBs as a back 3 - the issues here are plain for all to see. They can’t pass, they lack the ability to bring the ball out of the defence, they lose confidence as they continually either spray the ball out of play or give it straight to the opposition.

We are also persisting (on a majority of occasions) to play Brunt in away games. This does not work as he is not quick enough in possession and as he has aged his fitness levels (and pace - which he struggled with anyway) have dropped. This means that he frequently drops into the quarter back role (ala Greening) which should allow him to receive the ball in space and use his passing ability. However, away from home when teams press us high (combined with the poor delivery from the back 3) Brunt is often dispossessed and teams counter us (Forest away / Blues away) - more worryingly, as teams have now worked us out this is now happening in home games also (Derby).

Taking these points into account (I am aware that these are not the only issues) - I would move forward with the following:

                                                                       Johnstone

                                  Field                               Dawson                             Barry



          Phillips                     Livermore                    Hoolohan / Morrison              Gibbs             

                                                                       
                                                            Barnes                Sakho                   

                                                                             
                                                                            Gayle

Playing 2 number 10s will provide us with slightly more midfield cover without the ball yet both have the legs to join Gayle once we are in possession. JRod is clearly a decent player but is not currently contributing and would make a more effective sub than Kanu. By going with Hoolohan or Mozza in midfield, whilst losing some physicality we gain the ability to retain the ball and offload it quickly.

The big change here is obviously the back 3, I admit this is not an original idea and I am sure that it has been muted across this forum previously. Whilst slightly left field it would eradicate several of our issues defensively. Barry came through the ranks as a defender (left sided) and Field has been tried there in cup games. Their ability on the ball is clear. They are effective in possession and as midfielders understand how the player in midfield will want to receive possession. How much 'defensive' work does Bartley and Hegazi actually do in games (in this league) - they have far more on the ball duties than bona fide defending at present, I don’t think it would be a risk to try Barry and Field.

Up the Baggies.

Enjoyed your post and I am thinking quite like minded regarding needing a ball player at the back and that we would be better off with two number 10s. I think your team above would leave us a little weak from set-pieces and I think Field would be unfairly exposed at the back. I would take a similar tact to you but with a bit more steel:

Johnstone

Dawson
Hegazi
Barry

Phillips
Livermore
Field
Gibbs

Morrison
Barnes

Gayle 

Offline Mister AT

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2018, 11:06:53 AM »
I watched Derby last night and they set up 4-3-3 and the personnel they have is very similar to what we have here and we could set up the same way and be effective:

Johnstone

Dawson
Hegazi
Tosin/Bartley
Gibbs

Barry holding

Livermore and one of Brunt/Field/Morrison either side of him (I would prefer Field just for energy levels)

Then you can pick any of the following for the wide roles:
Rodriguez/Phillips/Barnes/Sako/Brunt

with Gayle up top.

If we were concerned about being out numbered or leaving our fullbacks exposed he could easily slot Brunt left to provide cover for Gibbs, we already know Phillips has the discipline to play that winger role, and JRod would track back also.
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Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2018, 11:39:55 AM »
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Offline seteefeet

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2018, 11:46:25 AM »
Enjoyed your post and I am thinking quite like minded regarding needing a ball player at the back and that we would be better off with two number 10s. I think your team above would leave us a little weak from set-pieces and I think Field would be unfairly exposed at the back. I would take a similar tact to you but with a bit more steel:

Johnstone

Dawson
Hegazi
Barry

Phillips
Livermore
Field
Gibbs

Morrison
Barnes

Gayle
I've not really fancied Barry at CH but the more I think about it, and looking at your suggestion, the more it grows on me. I'd be happy go with that side, with Sako and Rodriguez off the bench if we are chasing the game.

Offline Albionic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2018, 12:46:14 PM »
We started the season playing 4 at the back against Bolton, Forest and Norwich and that didn't go too well either, we conceded 6 goals in those 3 games so an average of 2 a game, playing 3 at the back we've conceded 17 in 12 league games so an average of 1.5 (rounded up).

We also scored 6 goals in those games so again an average of 2 goals a game, yet since then we've scored 27 goals in 12 games so again a slightly better average. Playing in our current formation we've scored more and conceded less (as averages) than we did playing in a 4-4-2 (or actually a 4-4-1-1).

The unknown in all that is what would have happened if we'd have stuck with 4 at the back, maybe we'd have conceded less.

Maybe it's the personnel rather than the formation?

really interesting stats and suggest the 3 at the back is the correct policy,

to your question "Maybe it's the personnel rather than the formation?"  I really believe its the personnel in that formation. Having traditional stoppers is not an ideal plan when you are trying to play your way out from the back ! - Stating the obvious - I know !
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Offline LiamTheBaggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2018, 02:09:44 PM »
Three at the back isn't working and we should go back to a 442

who are you playing at right back? Tyrone Mears?

If we're going to be a possession based team then we have to have the five across midfield.
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Offline hardtobeat

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2018, 04:17:28 PM »
who are you playing at right back? Tyrone Mears?

If we're going to be a possession based team then we have to have the five across midfield.
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Offline TheJacko2000

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2018, 07:28:15 PM »
Taking Rodriguez out for another midfielder would curtail most of our problems imo.


4-5-1 all day long.
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Offline Atomic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2018, 08:34:10 PM »
4-5-1 / 4-3-3 are very similar in fact there is hardly a fag paper width between the two depending on how you play. Harvey Barnes at the moment is classed as a "1" in our current formation of 3-4-"1"-2 whereas if he and Phillips played wide from a similar starting position in terms of depth most people wouldn't call it a 4-3-"2"-1 (a few would). As we play on the front foot I'd prefer to call it 4-3-3, if we were a man behind the ball outfit then I'd call it 4-5-1.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 08:51:53 PM by Atomic »

Offline paulosull

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2018, 11:02:45 AM »
Club needs a clear out of playing staff who frankly are not good enough to get us back into Premier league never mind stay in it. If Moore doesn't realise that then he needs to pick up his p45 as well.

Offline baggie steve

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2018, 08:12:37 AM »
Club needs a clear out of playing staff who frankly are not good enough to get us back into Premier league never mind stay in it. If Moore doesn't realise that then he needs to pick up his p45 as well.


The opportunity to do this was in the summer  ,
Keeping players on whose contracts had finished was a mistake and getting the likes of Mears abd Hoolahan was another mistake

Offline FallOutBoy

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2018, 12:54:19 PM »

The opportunity to do this was in the summer  ,
Keeping players on whose contracts had finished was a mistake and getting the likes of Mears abd Hoolahan was another mistake

Next summer is when it will happen.

Myhill, Mears, Barry, Brunt, Hoolahan, and Sako all out of contract.

Adarabiyio, Barnes, and Gayle all going back off loan.

Gibbs is too good for the Championship and will get a move back to the Prem. Dawson and Rodriguez think they're too good for the Championship and will try to move back to the Prem again.

Going to be a big turnover of players, and if we get it wrong it'll be years before we're top flight again.

Offline iwastherein68

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2018, 03:21:22 PM »
Next summer is when it will happen.

Myhill, Mears, Barry, Brunt, Hoolahan, and Sako all out of contract.

Adarabiyio, Barnes, and Gayle all going back off loan.

Gibbs is too good for the Championship and will get a move back to the Prem. Dawson and Rodriguez think they're too good for the Championship and will try to move back to the Prem again.

Going to be a big turnover of players, and if we get it wrong it'll be years before we're top flight again.
As I have eluded to elsewhere, would you trust Darren Moore to preside over such massive change, even if he is given a substantial amount of money? I would not
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Online Oldbury24

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2018, 07:05:50 PM »
I'm not sure how we can judge Darren Moore's impact on recruitment so far. Do you think that Jenkins said to Darren Moore....Dazza we can go one of two ways.  Either we can break the bank and bring in the type of dynamic players like Barnes that will fit your preferred system OR we can bank all the cash and you can use your contacts to get in some free transfers!!

we were operating a one-out, one-in transfer policy in the summer.  Its easy to say in hindsite that we should have sold Jrod and Dawson but they did seem undervalued at the time.  Right now I'd take a fresh tenner and a bottle of rum for JRod and they might want change.

I'll give you Bartley though, he has disappointed although I still reserve final judgement on him as a defender untill I see him in a 4 man defence....he might actually be a just about average Championship player......maybe.

Offline Albionic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2018, 10:35:39 PM »
I'm not sure how we can judge Darren Moore's impact on recruitment so far. Do you think that Jenkins said to Darren Moore....Dazza we can go one of two ways.  Either we can break the bank and bring in the type of dynamic players like Barnes that will fit your preferred system OR we can bank all the cash and you can use your contacts to get in some free transfers!!

we were operating a one-out, one-in transfer policy in the summer.  Its easy to say in hindsite that we should have sold Jrod and Dawson but they did seem undervalued at the time.  Right now I'd take a fresh tenner and a bottle of rum for JRod and they might want change.

I'll give you Bartley though, he has disappointed although I still reserve final judgement on him as a defender untill I see him in a 4 man defence....he might actually be a just about average Championship player......maybe.
Cannot argue with any of that
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Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2018, 08:27:43 AM »
I'm not sure how we can judge Darren Moore's impact on recruitment so far. Do you think that Jenkins said to Darren Moore....Dazza we can go one of two ways.  Either we can break the bank and bring in the type of dynamic players like Barnes that will fit your preferred system OR we can bank all the cash and you can use your contacts to get in some free transfers!!

we were operating a one-out, one-in transfer policy in the summer.  Its easy to say in hindsite that we should have sold Jrod and Dawson but they did seem undervalued at the time.  Right now I'd take a fresh tenner and a bottle of rum for JRod and they might want change.

I'll give you Bartley though, he has disappointed although I still reserve final judgement on him as a defender untill I see him in a 4 man defence....he might actually be a just about average Championship player......maybe.

Didn't you see us against Bolton, Forest and Norwich then? We played 4 at the back in those games and he looked poor.
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Online Oldbury24

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2018, 10:36:51 AM »
Didn't you see us against Bolton, Forest and Norwich then? We played 4 at the back in those games and he looked poor.

Bolton yes, but I can't remember anybody who didn't look poor at times that day. Forest and Norwich - No.  I'm a HST holder only so have been saved the away day punishment some of you have suffered.

Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2018, 08:30:26 AM »
Bolton yes, but I can't remember anybody who didn't look poor at times that day. Forest and Norwich - No.  I'm a HST holder only so have been saved the away day punishment some of you have suffered.

fair enough 24, I kind of wish I hadn't bothered with the last few away games!

We have looked poor whether 3 or 4 at the back which I maintain is down to personnel not formation. It's not solely down to the defence either though, we have a very static midfield 2 in front of them.

I think we can all agree that 3 at the back isn't working for Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley. Adabarioyo has looked more comfortable in recent weeks but still has a mistake in him (as they all do). Having a slow midfield of any of Livermore, Brunt, Barry, Field, Morrison or Hoolahan in front doesn't help as the ball just comes straight back to them. We need some energy in there and a ball player.

What we do is the tricky bit. Do we stick with 3 at the back until January and then try and get players in that can play that way or go to 4 at the back which Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley are more comfortable with and still try to get players in to revert back to a 3 in January, or do we abandon 3 at the back completely?

I think with the players we've got we have to try a 4-3-3 (which can also be a 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1). Certainly away from home we should be looking at a 5 man midfield as this is where we keep getting overrun and essentially lose the game.
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Online Oldbury24

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2018, 07:52:28 PM »
fair enough 24, I kind of wish I hadn't bothered with the last few away games!

We have looked poor whether 3 or 4 at the back which I maintain is down to personnel not formation. It's not solely down to the defence either though, we have a very static midfield 2 in front of them.

I think we can all agree that 3 at the back isn't working for Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley. Adabarioyo has looked more comfortable in recent weeks but still has a mistake in him (as they all do). Having a slow midfield of any of Livermore, Brunt, Barry, Field, Morrison or Hoolahan in front doesn't help as the ball just comes straight back to them. We need some energy in there and a ball player.

What we do is the tricky bit. Do we stick with 3 at the back until January and then try and get players in that can play that way or go to 4 at the back which Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley are more comfortable with and still try to get players in to revert back to a 3 in January, or do we abandon 3 at the back completely?

I think with the players we've got we have to try a 4-3-3 (which can also be a 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1). Certainly away from home we should be looking at a 5 man midfield as this is where we keep getting overrun and essentially lose the game.
Completely agree about the personell and think more and more of us are coming to the 4-3-3 conclusion - more 4-2-3-1 for me. 
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 07:54:22 PM by Oldbury24 »

Offline timdon

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2018, 09:54:44 PM »
fair enough 24, I kind of wish I hadn't bothered with the last few away games!

We have looked poor whether 3 or 4 at the back which I maintain is down to personnel not formation. It's not solely down to the defence either though, we have a very static midfield 2 in front of them.

I think we can all agree that 3 at the back isn't working for Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley. Adabarioyo has looked more comfortable in recent weeks but still has a mistake in him (as they all do). Having a slow midfield of any of Livermore, Brunt, Barry, Field, Morrison or Hoolahan in front doesn't help as the ball just comes straight back to them. We need some energy in there and a ball player.

What we do is the tricky bit. Do we stick with 3 at the back until January and then try and get players in that can play that way or go to 4 at the back which Dawson, Hegazi and Bartley are more comfortable with and still try to get players in to revert back to a 3 in January, or do we abandon 3 at the back completely?

I think with the players we've got we have to try a 4-3-3 (which can also be a 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1). Certainly away from home we should be looking at a 5 man midfield as this is where we keep getting overrun and essentially lose the game.
This is absolutely the heart of our problems as far as I can see. Puts massive pressure on the defence and offers little to the attack. In a nutshell, we don't have any good, young, fast and creative midfielders at all. So we won't be going up this season. We have to get rid of all the players you list in the summer (with the possible exception of Field) and hope we make some good signings for next season. Then we may have a chance of promotion. May. The rest will be down to the head coach.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 10:53:50 PM by timdon »

Offline seteefeet

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2018, 10:32:04 AM »
This is absolutely the heart of our problems as far as I can see. Puts massive pressure on the defence and offers little to the attack. In a nutshell, we don't have any good, young, fast and creative midfielders at all. So we won't be going up this season. We have to get rid of all the players you list in the summer (with the possible exception of Field) and hope we make some good signings for next season. Then we may have a chance of promotion. May. The rest will be down to the head coach.
Bang on! They are just much of a muchness with none of them offering much by way of defensive cover or as an attacking outlet. Whatever 2 we pick we still get overrun.
The defence has not been great but, and I'm going out on a limb here, if we bring in 2 quality 1st team midfielders in in January, I think the defence will look a different animal and we may even get away with 3 at the back (although not Bartley).

Offline timdon

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2018, 01:28:42 PM »
Bang on! They are just much of a muchness with none of them offering much by way of defensive cover or as an attacking outlet. Whatever 2 we pick we still get overrun.
The defence has not been great but, and I'm going out on a limb here, if we bring in 2 quality 1st team midfielders in in January, I think the defence will look a different animal and we may even get away with 3 at the back (although not Bartley).
I agree with regard to the defence, but rarely do we do much quality business in January. Think it will be the summer before we are able to assess the success or otherwise of our new scouting network.Which means we have to be patient and accept that we won't be going up this season. All the talk about our current squad being one of the best in the division is just delusion, apart from our loan signings.

Offline Standaman

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2018, 10:33:16 AM »
Interesting developments from yesterday

1. Shape 

Went to a 4-3-3 (seen it described as 4-2-2-2) with Robson-Kanu wide right Barnes wide left and Rodriguez through the middle. Much consternation pre match about Robson-Kanu's inclusion but it was logical in that set up i.e. he is left footed and balances the right footed Barnes on the opposite flank. Equally both wide players will drift inside to support the Centre Forward.

Midfield 3 was definitely Morrison and Livermore sitting deep (neither had a touch in the Leeds area) with Phillips playing in the wide right channel with licence to get forward.

Defence significantly moved to a back 4. Although Gibbs got forward quite a bit so often in possession it looked like a back 3 with Adarabioyo sitting behind Phillips.

2. Tactics

Went to the counter attack plainly was going to go long to negate the Leeds press. Once we got out of our own third there was some neat passing movements it wasn't all hit and hope by any means. Whether this will be effective against other teams is debatable but it certainly countered Leeds effectively.

3. Personnel

To the extent Leeds are a one off and therefore I am not sure how much we read into the changes  Brunt wasn't fit so whether his omission is permanent is doubtful. Morrison started ahead of Barry in what was in effect a double pivot and that is more significant but Barry has been injured recently. Personally I'm have never been convinced by Morrison in a Central Midfield role largely due to his lack of physical presence

Gayle on the bench was the big talking point pre game but again given his recent injury lay-off it might not be much more than protecting the player although if we are going more direct getting Robson-Kanu on the pitch given that he is the most physically combative of our forwards makes sense.

Field not in the squad a bit odd given a decent performance against Hull.

No player had a bad game so the next line up will be interesting given that Moore has tended to stick with winning teams.

I am not sure that this wasn't a specific plan to deal with Leeds or whether elements will be adopted as part of Moore's default game plan.
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Offline johnny Cash

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2018, 08:52:41 AM »
Three at the back should be banished as plan A. Possibly forever. Very rarely does it work in this country long term. Defenders just never seem comfortable playing it and good wing backs are hard to find.

Use three at the back sparingly or as a tactical switch in play.

Oh and a club should always have a specialist right back that isn’t 35 or 17 so they at least have an ability to play a proper back four without a shoehorn.

Offline Standaman

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #74 on: November 24, 2018, 10:17:16 AM »
Moore retained the team and the shape against Ipswich and was rewarded with a comfortable win.

 A few observations first off the implication of the 4-3-3 system is that there is one Centre Forward. Moore has to make a decision as to whether to play Rodriguez or Gayle. HRK plays by default in that he is our only left footed forward which is important for the balance of the 3 and he is probably our only forward who is comfortable playing with his back to goal.

Second observation I was genuinely surprised by Ipswich's approach to the game. Given their position and obvious limitations as a team I thought Lambert might set them up to sit deep and frustrate us hoping to pick something up from a set piece.  While not particularly effective they did their best to take the game to us.

I think this is an interesting characteristic which once applied to English football in general and while absolutely not applying to the top flight still holds true in the Championship. There is an expectation that the home team will at least try to take the game to the opposition regardless of the relative strength of their opponents. I can only think of 2 Championship teams which this might not apply to Forest and 'Boro and we have played both of those. As such I think we may have found a game plan that will work for us away from home.

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