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Offline TheJacko2000

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2018, 06:35:00 PM »
The system won't be changed. I'd have Barry at lcb instead of the woeful Bartley, I'd have Morrison in for Rodriguez with Barnes off the striker giving us an extra man in midfield. Apart from that, carry on.
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Offline paulosull

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2018, 07:11:41 PM »
Need to go to back 4 with Barry sweeping a middle three of Morrison and livermore. I'd stick Barnes in the number ten roll with Phillips out wide on right and Gayle up top.

Offline Atomic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2018, 07:14:37 PM »
The system won't be changed. I'd have Barry at lcb instead of the woeful Bartley, I'd have Morrison in for Rodriguez with Barnes off the striker giving us an extra man in midfield. Apart from that, carry on.


Sadly I think you're right. It'd be a very pleasant surprise if common sense prevails.

Offline Standaman

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2018, 07:46:50 PM »
I think there are couple of points we need to bear in mind. We do not have a natural target man and that rules out systems which require one and equally we have to pass through the midfield and get the ball to feet for our forwards in the opposition box.

I am not sure 3 at the back is a particular issue or rather I am not sure that going to a 4 fixes the problems. The long standing issues are in midfield and without a fix for that we are in a series of sub optimum options all of which have slightly different issues. Equally we seem to have a number of options in certain positions and virtually none in others.

Personally I would drop Rodriguez from the current line up to get another body in midfield to give the defence better passing options and better cover and support to the wing backs.

There seem to be 3 options 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 (with a regista or a trequartista)

4-3-3

                                  Johnstone

          Dawson          Hegazi        Bartley   Gibbs

                                          Field

                               Livermore    Morrison

         Phillips                         Gayle                       Barnes


This could pivot from a 3 at the back in possession to a back 4 out of possession. Allowing Gibbs to overlap as Barnes would tend to cut inside.

Or 3-4-3 ( trequartista)

                                         Johnstone

                       Dawson          Hegazi        Bartley   

          Phillips                        Livermore                   Gibbs

                                            Hoolahan

            Sakho                         Gayle                       Barnes

The alternative is a regista version would see Field drop into the deep sitting role similar to the 4-3-3.

There are alternatives to nearly every position in the line up we are struggling for Right Back and or Wing Back. 

There is an argument for sticking with a style and shape because it allows for players to grow into the positions whereas chopping and changing just breeds confusion. However I think we have reached a point where Moore needs to look at alternatives.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 06:31:49 AM by Standaman »
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Offline Atomic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2018, 08:13:28 PM »
I think there are couple of points we need to bear in mind. We do not have a natural target man and that rules out systems which require one and equally we have to pass through the midfield and get the ball to feet for our forwards in the opposition box.

I am not sure 3 at the back is a particular issue or rather I am not sure that going to a 4 fixes the problems. The long standing issues are in midfield and without a fix for that we are in a series of sub optimum options all of which have slightly different issues. Equally we seem to have a number of options in certain positions and virtually none in others.

Personally I would drop Rodriguez from the current line up to get another body in midfield to give the defence better passing options and better cover and support to the wing backs.

There seem to be 3 options 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 (with a regista or a trequartista)

4-3-3

                                  Johnstone

          Dawson          Hegazi        Bartley   Gibbs

                                          Field

                               Livermore    Morrison

         Phillips                         Gayle                       Barnes


This could pivot from a 3 at the back in possession to a back 4 out of possession. Allowing Gibbs to overlap as Barnes would tend to cut inside.

Or 3-4-3 ( trequartista)

                                         Johnstone

                       Dawson          Hegazi        Bartley   

          Phillips              Livermore      Barry         Gibbs

                                            Hoolahan

            Sakho                         Gayle                       Barnes

The alternative is a regista version would see Field drop into the deep sitting role similar to the 4-3-3.

There are alternatives to nearly every position in the line up we are struggling for Right Back and or Wing Back. 

There is an argument for sticking with a style and shape because it allows for players to grow into the positions whereas chopping and changing just breeds confusion. However I think we have reached a point where Moore needs to look at alternatives.


Your second team is a no go mate. No ref is going to let us play with 12 men.  ;)

Online Xpresso

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2018, 09:01:54 PM »
Someone wrote:

Quote
We have the personnel, just not the correct tactics

In my view we clearly don't have the personnel. We've too many players too far into their 30s to withstand the rigors of the two-games-a-week demands of the Championship. I suspect Big Dave's hands were tied when it came to recruiting over the summer, which is why we've been left having to rely far too much on players like Brunt, Barry, Mears, Morrison and Hoolahan. They should be there to provide back up at this stage of their careers, instead we're having to rely too much on them as big players rather than bit players.

Opposition coaches/managers have been quick to spot that if they flood the midfield with pace and movement they can carve us open at will. Our three at the back are all too often left exposed by our total lack of pace in midfield and by the lack of movement in front of them when they're looking to play the ball forward.

The warning signs have been there for several games. The squad is just as threadbare as it was last season and I can't see that Big Dave has many viable alternatives.

Our recruitment over the last three or four seasons has been abysmal and now we're paying the price for it.

Offline Adder

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2018, 09:12:31 PM »
Someone wrote:

In my view we clearly don't have the personnel. We've too many players too far into their 30s to withstand the rigors of the two-games-a-week demands of the Championship. I suspect Big Dave's hands were tied when it came to recruiting over the summer, which is why we've been left having to rely far too much on players like Brunt, Barry, Mears, Morrison and Hoolahan. They should be there to provide back up at this stage of their careers, instead we're having to rely too much on them as big players rather than bit players.

Opposition coaches/managers have been quick to spot that if they flood the midfield with pace and movement they can carve us open at will. Our three at the back are all too often left exposed by our total lack of pace in midfield and by the lack of movement in front of them when they're looking to play the ball forward.

The warning signs have been there for several games. The squad is just as threadbare as it was last season and I can't see that Big Dave has many viable alternatives.

Our recruitment over the last three or four seasons has been abysmal and now we're paying the price for it.
I'm pretty sure DM must have been heavily involved in the decision to keep Morrison though. I can't see that Jenkins would have been insistent that we keep paying Morrison decent wages given the return we've had over the past 18 months. Lampard and several others would have replaced Morrison with a younger fitter AM option.

Offline tylerm

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2018, 09:25:21 PM »
Just watching QPR Vile and it brings home how pedestrian and lacking in energy our central midfield is. No sign of constant sideways and backwards passes. Just what we need to link the defence and attack

Offline Standaman

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2018, 11:29:06 PM »

Your second team is a no go mate. No ref is going to let us play with 12 men.  ;)

Thanks amended in original post
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Offline Windmill Baggy

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2018, 01:23:37 PM »
I think that three at the back still has potential tbf.
I would like to see:

------------------Johnstone-------------------
------Dawson------Barry------Hegazi------
Phillips-----------------------------------------Gibbs
---------------Livermore-----Field------------
----------------------Barnes------------------------
-----------------Gayle------J-Rod--------------------

With Dawson and Hegazi as the "defending" defenders and Barry there to pass it out of defense.

Interesting having Barry in the back 3. Didn't he play a lot at LB early on in his career? He may have lost a bit of pace but I'd take him there over Bartley.





Offline Standaman

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2018, 07:09:46 AM »
With some of the fringe players getting game time on Saturday a few observations.

I am now more convinced than ever that in order to get control of the ball and help the defence we need to sacrifice one of the strikers to get an extra midfielder on the pitch. Sako not being a striker by trade meant he dropped into better positions than Rodriguez does when he is playing in the role (some of my reservations about Sako confirmed but being the last patient fan alive let's wait and see how he does if he gets a few games). 

The RWB/RB remains a concern I haven't been particularly impressed with Phillips since his return from injury. I would hope he hasn't had one of his purple patches and is now drifting back to being the rather ineffectual player that he's been for large parts of his Albion career.

I thought the Morrison/Livermore combination looked better than most of central midfield combinations did this season. As ever I remain unconvinced by Morrision off the ball in central mid but we certainly were better on the ball for his contribution. I think going forward playing those 2 either in front of Field or behind Hoolihan would greatly improve the team.
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Offline Atomic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2018, 07:33:15 PM »
With some of the fringe players getting game time on Saturday a few observations.

I am now more convinced than ever that in order to get control of the ball and help the defence we need to sacrifice one of the strikers to get an extra midfielder on the pitch. Sako not being a striker by trade meant he dropped into better positions than Rodriguez does when he is playing in the role (some of my reservations about Sako confirmed but being the last patient fan alive let's wait and see how he does if he gets a few games). 

The RWB/RB remains a concern I haven't been particularly impressed with Phillips since his return from injury. I would hope he hasn't had one of his purple patches and is now drifting back to being the rather ineffectual player that he's been for large parts of his Albion career.

I thought the Morrison/Livermore combination looked better than most of central midfield combinations did this season. As ever I remain unconvinced by Morrision off the ball in central mid but we certainly were better on the ball for his contribution. I think going forward playing those 2 either in front of Field or behind Hoolihan would greatly improve the team.


I'm not keen on Hoolahan. I do think he's the type of player who can do a job on certain occasions off the bench but overall he's too small, lightweight certainly for a central midfield role. He's the type of player you use if you're in front in a game and want to retain possession towards the end of the game. Morrison and Livermore is OK, certainly better than any combination which includes Brunt but personally I'd prefer Barry alongside Livermore as he's more robust and has more defensive know how than Jimmy. That's not to say Mozza can't do a job I just feel Barry is the slightly better option.

I think at the start of the season I advocated 4-3-3 for this squad and I'm more convinced than ever now that this needs to be our default system. The third man in midfield whenever possible has to be someone that get forward and offer some sort of attacking threat from midfield, something we just do not have. There is only one man at the club that can do that, Sam Field. A lot of people see Sam as a holding midfielder, I don't. The Derby game was a mess all round but Field did do things that no other midfielder does. First half he made one run off the ball into what you'd call the old inside left position. It ended with him competing for a header and winning a free kick. It must be the only time all season I've seen anyone from our central midfield go beyond the strikers off the ball. In a three man midfield that is something you need. Second half Field carried the ball forward from the middle of the park three or four times. Again that is something we just do not do otherwise. In a midfield three he is ideal.

Regarding Matt Phillips, he is a winger by nature. The 4-3-3 with one man up top and Barnes one side, Phillips the other is ideal for him. At the moment he is playing a physically demanding role at wingback, his energy needs conserving for the top end of the pitch. It is currently a square peg in a round hole with Matty at wingback. He's done well but it's not ideal.

Online Oldbury24

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2018, 10:25:56 PM »
Agree that Phillips has not looked the same player since his return and was really blowing with 15 still to go against Blackburn.....still one our better players in a poor display though.  Totally agree about Sam Field as well, on his performance against Derby; didn't look to have the technique to play in a two but would like to see him given the job of breaking past the line....potential to have the odd goal in him to me.

Offline Standaman

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2018, 06:56:39 AM »
The reason why I suggest Hoolihan/Field in the role of play maker either behind or in front of a midfield two is because of their passing ability and keeping the ball is key to playing into the good positions in and around the box for our forwards

Phillips is not the best defensively this I know. The difference between good and bad Phillips is an unwillingness to take on players or show for the ball in tight spots.   
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Offline Adder

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2018, 09:39:04 PM »
Agree that Phillips has not looked the same player since his return and was really blowing with 15 still to go against Blackburn.....still one our better players in a poor display though.  Totally agree about Sam Field as well, on his performance against Derby; didn't look to have the technique to play in a two but would like to see him given the job of breaking past the line....potential to have the odd goal in him to me.
Field's performance against Derby may have raised some questions but circumstances meant he was thrown into that with very little football under his belt (especially as a CM)...and against a vibrant Derby team who outnumbered us in the middle of the park. In short I wouldn't judge his ability to play in a 2 based on that game (though we don't have any central 2 good enough to cope with being outnumbered).
Re Phillips, he seems to need confidence in his own fitness to be at his best. His best form coincides with periods where he stays fit for a fairly prolonged period. As one of the two main creative sparks in the team that's causes us a problem.

Offline DurhamBaggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2018, 10:20:24 AM »
Morning all

Looking forward to Hull away on Saturday - a little bit of free time at work so decided to revert to being ten years old again and started writing down the best 11/tactic available for this season.

Ok, we are going to play 3 at the back - Jones' appointment will dictate that.
We are also going to play Harvey Barnes in the number 10 role - his lack of positional discipline to play CM or wide will dictate that.

We are currently persisting with playing 3 CBs as a back 3 - the issues here are plain for all to see. They can’t pass, they lack the ability to bring the ball out of the defence, they lose confidence as they continually either spray the ball out of play or give it straight to the opposition.

We are also persisting (on a majority of occasions) to play Brunt in away games. This does not work as he is not quick enough in possession and as he has aged his fitness levels (and pace - which he struggled with anyway) have dropped. This means that he frequently drops into the quarter back role (ala Greening) which should allow him to receive the ball in space and use his passing ability. However, away from home when teams press us high (combined with the poor delivery from the back 3) Brunt is often dispossessed and teams counter us (Forest away / Blues away) - more worryingly, as teams have now worked us out this is now happening in home games also (Derby).

Taking these points into account (I am aware that these are not the only issues) - I would move forward with the following:

                                                                       Johnstone

                                  Field                               Dawson                             Barry



          Phillips                     Livermore                    Hoolohan / Morrison              Gibbs             

                                                                       
                                                            Barnes                Sakho                   

                                                                             
                                                                            Gayle

Playing 2 number 10s will provide us with slightly more midfield cover without the ball yet both have the legs to join Gayle once we are in possession. JRod is clearly a decent player but is not currently contributing and would make a more effective sub than Kanu. By going with Hoolohan or Mozza in midfield, whilst losing some physicality we gain the ability to retain the ball and offload it quickly.

The big change here is obviously the back 3, I admit this is not an original idea and I am sure that it has been muted across this forum previously. Whilst slightly left field it would eradicate several of our issues defensively. Barry came through the ranks as a defender (left sided) and Field has been tried there in cup games. Their ability on the ball is clear. They are effective in possession and as midfielders understand how the player in midfield will want to receive possession. How much 'defensive' work does Bartley and Hegazi actually do in games (in this league) - they have far more on the ball duties than bona fide defending at present, I don’t think it would be a risk to try Barry and Field.

Up the Baggies. 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 01:50:56 PM by DurhamBaggie »

Offline Albionic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2018, 10:45:02 AM »
Morning all

Looking forward to Hull away on Saturday - a little bit of free time at work so decided to revert to being ten years old again and started writing down the best 11/tactic available for this season.

Ok, we are going to play 3 at the back - Jones' appointment will dictate that.
We are also going to play Harvey Barnes in the number 10 role - his lack of positional discipline to play CM or wide will dictate that.

We are currently persisting with playing 3 CBs as a back 3 - the issues here are plain for all to see. They can’t pass, they lack the ability to bring the ball out of the defence, they lose confidence as they continually either spray the ball out of play or give it straight to the opposition.

We are also persisting (on a majority of occasions) to play Brunt in away games. This does not work as he is not quick enough in possession and as he has aged his fitness levels (and pace - which he struggled with anyway) have dropped. This means that he frequently drops into the quarter back role (ala Greening) which should allow him to receive the ball in space and use his passing ability. However, away from home when teams press us high (combined with the poor delivery from the back 3) Brunt is often dispossessed and teams counter us (Forest away / Blues away) - more worryingly, as teams have now worked us out this is now happening in home games also (Derby).

Taking these points into account (I am aware that these are not the only issues) - I would move forward with the following:

                                                                                Johnstone

                                   Field                                       Dawson                                      Barry



Phillips                                         Livermore                                 Hoolohan / Morrison                     Gibbs             

                                                                       
                                                                    Barnes                Sakho                   

                                                                             
                                                                                   Gayle

Playing 2 number 10s will provide us with slightly more midfield cover without the ball yet both have the legs to join Gayle once we are in possession. JRod is clearly a decent player but is not currently contributing and would make a more effective sub than Kanu. By going with Hoolohan or Mozza in midfield, whilst losing some physicality we gain the ability to retain the ball and offload it quickly.

The big change here is obviously the back 3, I admit this is not an original idea and I am sure that it has been muted across this forum previously. Whilst slightly left field it would eradicate several of our issues defensively. Barry came through the ranks as a defender (left sided) and Field has been tried there in cup games. Their ability on the ball is clear. They are effective in possession and as midfielders understand how the player in midfield will want to receive possession. How much 'defensive' work does Bartley and Hegazi actually do in games (in this league) - they have far more on the ball duties than bona fide defending at present, I don’t think it would be a risk to try Barry and Field.

Up the Baggies.

I would be concerned about facing pacey wingers with that team, it would require Gibbs / Phillips to provide extensive cover
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Offline Atomic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2018, 06:59:50 PM »
Field is left footed no way will he play on the right of a back three. Hoolahan's stature dictates that he won't play CM either.

Offline liverbaggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2018, 11:03:49 PM »
I've always favoured a 352 setup,but you have to have the players who understand how it work and have the skill to play it,including the keeper!
The 3 is a problem Philips and Gibbs OK
Front 2 OK.
10 OK.
Then do we have two defensive midfielders or one defending and one attacking with the 10?
Its those two mids ,I say Livermore and field should be there.
We really need a cb who's strong and in charge perhaps we'll get one in January sales,its a shame because we're almost there as a team.
The coaches have done well considering last season anyway if we can win at Hull we'll still be right in the thick of it,we can't afford to let anyone break away.

Offline paulosull

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2018, 01:06:00 AM »
Three at the back isn't working and we should go back to a 442

Offline beechyboy90

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2018, 05:13:32 AM »
Three at the back isn't working and we should go back to a 442

4 at the back defiantly not sure about 442 think when we have the likes of Barnes Philips and sako Burke leko waiting we need to be playing wing forwards- 433 or 4231
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Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2018, 08:57:18 AM »
Three at the back isn't working and we should go back to a 442

We started the season playing 4 at the back against Bolton, Forest and Norwich and that didn't go too well either, we conceded 6 goals in those 3 games so an average of 2 a game, playing 3 at the back we've conceded 17 in 12 league games so an average of 1.5 (rounded up).

We also scored 6 goals in those games so again an average of 2 goals a game, yet since then we've scored 27 goals in 12 games so again a slightly better average. Playing in our current formation we've scored more and conceded less (as averages) than we did playing in a 4-4-2 (or actually a 4-4-1-1).

The unknown in all that is what would have happened if we'd have stuck with 4 at the back, maybe we'd have conceded less.

Maybe it's the personnel rather than the formation?
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Offline Atomic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2018, 09:12:48 AM »
We started the season playing 4 at the back against Bolton, Forest and Norwich and that didn't go too well either, we conceded 6 goals in those 3 games so an average of 2 a game, playing 3 at the back we've conceded 17 in 12 league games so an average of 1.5 (rounded up).

We also scored 6 goals in those games so again an average of 2 goals a game, yet since then we've scored 27 goals in 12 games so again a slightly better average. Playing in our current formation we've scored more and conceded less (as averages) than we did playing in a 4-4-2 (or actually a 4-4-1-1).

The unknown in all that is what would have happened if we'd have stuck with 4 at the back, maybe we'd have conceded less.

Maybe it's the personnel rather than the formation?


When we've played four at the back this season we've played 4-4-2. I'm not a fan of 4-4-2 and it certainly doesn't suit our slowboats in midfield.

The problem we have is pretty similar to that playing 4-4-2 - we need an extra man in the middle of the park. 3-4-1-2 or 4-4-2 we're still going to often get outnumbered in midfield.


Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2018, 09:36:16 AM »

When we've played four at the back this season we've played 4-4-2. I'm not a fan of 4-4-2 and it certainly doesn't suit our slowboats in midfield.

The problem we have is pretty similar to that playing 4-4-2 - we need an extra man in the middle of the park. 3-4-1-2 or 4-4-2 we're still going to often get outnumbered in midfield.

If the 1 in the 4-1 midfield we currently use dropped back when we're out of possession we wouldn't get over run quite so much as we'd then have 5 across the middle, unfortunately that doesn't really happen.
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Offline Atomic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2018, 09:47:59 AM »
If the 1 in the 4-1 midfield we currently use dropped back when we're out of possession we wouldn't get over run quite so much as we'd then have 5 across the middle, unfortunately that doesn't really happen.


It won't as that one is Harvey Barnes. And nor should it (IMO). Every time you see so called experts on TV / radio they all go on about flair players tracking back. I don't believe in that. Hazard doesn't do it, Salah doesn't do it, Best never did it, Maradona never did it, Ronaldo doesn't do it, Messi doesn't do it etc. Now I know we're talking Albion in the Championship and not world class teams but the same principal applies. You don't want your flair players knackering themselves running all over the park in a defensive capacity.

Football teams are made up of workers and magicians (in a relative football sense). If you play like Pulis does, yes you need everybody to defend but if you play predominantly on the front foot you need less of that.

You can have a 3-5-2 sure, but then Barnes either plays in midfield which will not suit him, up front where he won't be able to receive the ball to his feet facing goal or you don't play him at all.

One thing for sure, we're not getting the best out of him at the moment because teams have figured out how we play and where Barnes is likely to be and they know if you stop Barnes you stop Albion.

Just to pick up on your stats you posted earlier but if you took the samples from our first three games and our last three I'm guessing the stats then favour the first three games. Not being pedantic, honest  ;D ;)