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Offline beechyboy90

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System tactics personnel
« on: October 25, 2018, 06:22:55 AM »
For me the current tactics personnel and system
Isn't working the defence aren't protected and the midfield is totally overrun and we carry the front 3 in games.

For the majority of the games we have been overrun and outplayed regardless of the results. So for a while that result hasn't been coming for me.

For me We have 2 choices of system we could switch to that would still keep our attacking impetus and also make us abit more solid and might give us chance to control the game;


           Johnstone
Dawson Bartley Hegazi Gibbs
    Field Barry Livermore
    Phillips Gayle Barnes

Bench: myhill tosin brunt Morrison Burke sako Rodriguez

Or:

              Johnstone
Dawson Bartley Hegazi Gibbs
           Barry Livermore
       Phillips Barnes brunt
             Gayle/Rodriguez

Bench: myhill tosin Townsend Morrison (or hoolahan) field sako Rodriquez (or Gayle depending which starts)

Thoughts?
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Offline tuamigos

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2018, 07:14:30 AM »
One good think about those formations is that it keeps Mears and HRK away from the 18
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Offline Atomic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2018, 07:53:53 AM »
I'm glad you started this topic beechyboy as I was going to do the same.

The three at the back isn't working for us that's clear to most people except Moore and Jones. It doesn't suit the players we have. Nor does 4-4-2. There is an option for retaining three at the back but it means we need a five in midfield. Harvey Barnes cannot play in that system he would either have to play as one of a pair up front or in the 3 man midfield. If he does that he becomes like any other midfielder and wastes energy playing to deep. He will be less effective in the final third. We need a formation that suits the players we have, that gives us more solidity, particularly throughout the spine of the team and that retains our threat going forward. Step forward the system we went to in the end yesterday : 4-3-3.


                                                     Johnstone
                                                    Myhill
 
(Dawson make do for now)       Hegazi                 Bartley                      Gibbs
Mears                                     Dawson                Adarabioyo                Townsend
                                                                                                     
                       Livermore               Morrison                    Field
                       Harper                    Hoolahan                  Barry

         Phillips                                Rodriguez                              Barnes
         Burke                                  Gayle                                    Sako


Now the above is a for example. I know there are some players left out and and I don't mean that 1-11 to be taken too literally but it highlights a more more solid system. No square pegs in round holes, no more getting over-run in midfield and Barnes / Phillips left to play where they can do damage, no wating energy tracking back. Eden Hazard doesn't track back all the time nor do Salah or Mane (examples). It's a bit of a myth that you need flair players to do defensive duties. Yes they have to do a job but not to the detriment of wasting their energy. NO team in the Championship is going to push full backs on with Barnes / Phillips playing high up the pitch.

In midfield let Sam Field bomb up and down. He did that a few times last night and he's the only one we have that can do that. In the end it resulted in him almost scoring with a curler. Livermore will hustle and bustle, and the likes of Barry, Morrison, Hoolahan can all play with the ball, all of them have the ability to dictate the game.

At the back there is less space between the defenders, naturally, proper cover in front of them and all can concentrate on defending.

It doesn't mean we can't play football, we can but in this league you have to scrap as well. In this system we can do that, the spine is more solid and the team better balanced overall.

Also we don't have to keep tinkering with systems every time someone goes off and we have adequate cover all over with the exception of right back but we all know that we'll have to muddle through till January.

A couple of seasons ago Chelsea looked poor until they found the right system for them and went 3-5-2. It made them a completely different team. That could be the same for us, it could be the making of us. It suits the players we have and I'm sure we'd be a much better team adapting to 4-3-3.

Offline wobbs68

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2018, 11:16:40 AM »
Great thread.  We have the personnel, just not the correct tactics.  We have been carrying our attacking players which has caused us problems at the back.  You simply cant be flamboyant without the ball!

For me Mears, Bartley and Tosin are no better if not worse than our home grown players so shouldn't be ever starting.  We need to stop conceding goals, add pace to the team and play in a system that the players are comfortable in.  It is clear that some of our players are unhappy on the pitch because of out tactics.

Barnes is a fantastic player but we are only utilizing him for about a third of the match.  He may not like it but we need him more involved more often.  An attacking player is going to have to be sacrificed in my opinion to make us stronger and at the moment I think that has to be JayRod, but what a striker to bring on if needs be.  Kanu shouldn't be on the bench.  He inst good enough to change games.

My formation would be either be 4 -5 -1 or 4 -4-1-1.  Based on the players that we have I'd go for:

                                                                           Johnstone

                                                                  Field Dawson  Hegazi  Gibbs

                                                              Philips  Livermore Morrison Barry Barnes
                                                                                         
                                                                              Gayle

Yes, Field at right back!  Pace, strength, agility, technical ability, physic and better than what weve got.  I'd also consider Barry as a centre half on the left in a 4 man defence which would allow Dawson to go right back.  Captain - Livermore or Morrison

Offline baggies_24

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2018, 11:25:41 AM »
For me I would play 4-2-3-1
                Johnson
Dawson   Tosin   Hegazi    Gibbs
   
              Livermore  Field/Barry

 Phillips      Barnes.     Sako/ Hoolahan

                    Gayle/Jrod

There’s balance in that team we don’t negate going forward but look a lot stronger at the back and in midfield, it also gets rid of players who aren’t performing and don’t deserve to be in the team.

Offline Albion79

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2018, 11:40:10 AM »
I would get 4-3-3.

Johnstone

Dawson / Tosin / Hegazi or Bartley / Gibbs

Livermore and Field or Barry
(Barry and Field both to sit deep and keep the ball ticking over so protects back 4 too)
(Livermore is more box to box and provides plenty of cover for the defence and Barry / Field too)

Barnes as the attacking midfielder

Phillips / Gayle / Jrod as the three man attack, they all have good movement so they could interchange a lot, come deep, switch flanks, etc rather than one be classed as the left winger, one as the striker, etc.

That formations gives us a solid defensive platform and allows the current defenders to do what they are good at - defend.

With Livermore, Barry or Field in front it gives the defence protection but also allows actual ball players to get on the ball when we play out from the back instead of dropping back 20 yards to get the ball which is what they have been doing, they will already be in that space.

Barnes carries the ball well and with the quality of the front 3, plus the support of Barnes and Livermore, there are plenty of goals in there too.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 11:44:27 AM by Albion79 »

Offline FallOutBoy

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2018, 12:45:16 PM »
Yes, Field at right back!  Pace, strength, agility, technical ability, physic and better than what weve got.

Not a bad idea, apart from the fact he's left footed.

If we're going to play a young midfielder there out of position, Harper and Edwards are both right footed and so would bring more balance.

Offline 17GD

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2018, 01:13:25 PM »
A few things strike me as odd and I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed, but Dawson is taking a lot of stick lately when he never used to. He was always solid but the past few months he's been awful. And the other thing is Gibbs. He didn't make 100-odd appearances under Wenger just to make up the numbers. Yet here, he's a shadow of the former player he was.

And I also find is peculiar that DM was a defender but our defence is woeful. Usually former defenders have a decent defence but are weaker going forward.

Offline allenkevanastle

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2018, 03:04:04 PM »
Interesting thread and yes, I think we all can see our players need to be in a back4 with some dfensive midfield in front of them. Incidentally, I think the last time I saw our defense so woefully vulnerable but goals were being scored was when Tony Mowbary was manager! What is it with centre halves that become managers?

Offline altonbaggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2018, 03:57:24 PM »
Great thread.  I'm less concerned with the 3 at the back than the overrun midfield.  The defenders are already "not the best" at passing it or so need options which they tend not to have.  When they do pass it to one of the two central midfielders the opposition know to press and put us under pressure.  If we can slip past that press then we often look like we can score but the risk to reward is really hard to watch!

For me, we need to sacrifice Rodriguez and bring in, say, Morrison to strengthen that central midfield.  Livermore, Field, and Morrison combined should be able to give defenders options and protect them while still leaving us with the attacking threat we want.

Offline timdon

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2018, 04:19:47 PM »
Great thread.  I'm less concerned with the 3 at the back than the overrun midfield.  The defenders are already "not the best" at passing it or so need options which they tend not to have.  When they do pass it to one of the two central midfielders the opposition know to press and put us under pressure.  If we can slip past that press then we often look like we can score but the risk to reward is really hard to watch!

For me, we need to sacrifice Rodriguez and bring in, say, Morrison to strengthen that central midfield.  Livermore, Field, and Morrison combined should be able to give defenders options and protect them while still leaving us with the attacking threat we want.
If we are relying on Jimmy Morrison to change our fortunes, we really are in a bad place. He is injured so often these days, and even when he isn't his form is woefully inconsistent. Hoolahan might be a better option, but the truth of the matter is that we desperately need a box to box midfielder in January.

Offline altonbaggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2018, 04:44:16 PM »
Agreed...but until January...Morrison or Hoolahan appear to be the option.  Or Harper but I wouldn't have both Field and Harper in there at the same time.  For system and tactics having 3 in the middle allows us to continue with this style of play for me..

Offline Pie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2018, 05:30:59 PM »
I've posted on several occasions that a 4-2-3-1 would be ideal for us and the squad we have.

Ideally with this we would buy a natural RB in January.

Offline beechyboy90

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2018, 06:36:44 PM »
Another benefit from a 433 would be genuine competition for positions and less square pegs in round holes (Dawson at rb be the only one really)

Phillips and Barnes as wing forwards with the likes of Sako and even Burke and leko waiting in the wings. Be beneficial for players like Burke Edwards leko as we could give them game time with less fear as we wouldn't be expecting them to track back as much.

Striker wise Gayle and Rodriguez know they are in the team as HRK isn't really much more than a 3rd or 4th choice he's never going to be a starter and not even a game changer. So having the 2 better strikers competing for one birth might give Rodriguez the shot in the arm he needs.

Also the system is easy enough to pulis out for an away game and switch to 451.
The 433 would allow our passing game to stay without us being unbalanced and overrun.
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Offline Atomic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2018, 06:43:23 PM »
Another benefit from a 433 would be genuine competition for positions and less square pegs in round holes (Dawson at rb be the only one really)

Phillips and Barnes as wing forwards with the likes of Sako and even Burke and leko waiting in the wings. Be beneficial for players like Burke Edwards leko as we could give them game time with less fear as we wouldn't be expecting them to track back as much.

Striker wise Gayle and Rodriguez know they are in the team as HRK isn't really much more than a 3rd or 4th choice he's never going to be a starter and not even a game changer. So having the 2 better strikers competing for one birth might give Rodriguez the shot in the arm he needs.

Also the system is easy enough to pulis out for an away game and switch to 451.
The 433 would allow our passing game to stay without us being unbalanced and overrun.


Agree word for word. You and I are singing from the same hymn sheet. It's a no brainer for me it is the one system that perfectly suits the players we have at the club.

The only area that's a problem is right back but that's the same whatever way we play. We desperately need to bring in at least one in January. If the club haven't got someone lined up someone's head needs to be chopped because they've had long enough to address an issue everybody knows about. Until January we will have to muddle on much as we have been doing up to now anyway.

Offline zippyandbungle

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2018, 10:03:52 PM »

Agree word for word. You and I are singing from the same hymn sheet. It's a no brainer for me it is the one system that perfectly suits the players we have at the club.

The only area that's a problem is right back but that's the same whatever way we play. We desperately need to bring in at least one in January. If the club haven't got someone lined up someone's head needs to be chopped because they've had long enough to address an issue everybody knows about. Until January we will have to muddle on much as we have been doing up to now anyway.
Or we say that the first time we get really done, coincides with the team picked being basically what many had been asking for and that whilst many disagreed with the selections/formation , for his first go at management for a club that had cut some serious cloth back...he weren't doing bad?

The point about the RB position, only really counts if we play 4 at the back, this could be the reason we are playing 3....and in Jan we make a purchase?

I've seen many comments about HRK, Mears ,Bartley being poor (and in instances they have ) but so have others, Barnes still has much to learn ,Phillips went missing last year , whereas mears played in the 4-1 with an assist and HRK scored in the 7-1

I'm not saying folk ain't right to highlight issues, but we ain't doing that bad....and it ant that long ago people would have given anything just for some excitement....
It has just been delivered
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Offline WorcsWBA

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2018, 10:05:16 PM »
The problem with playing 4 at the back is that we either have to have Mears or Dawson at right-back. Mears can't get up and down the flank and if you thought Dawson is looking disinterested playing in the centre, imagine what he'd be like if he was asked to play at right-back when he's made it perfectly plain in the past that he wants to play in the centre.

It was pointed out by people on here right through the summer that it was imperative we signed a right-back, but we pathetically failed to do it and are now having to live with the consequences.

Offline Atomic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2018, 10:48:11 PM »
Nobody at all has asked for us to play 3-4-1-2 zippy people just pick their teams based on the system we've been using.

Offline jimmyj

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2018, 11:44:46 AM »
I think that three at the back still has potential tbf.
I would like to see:

------------------Johnstone-------------------
------Dawson------Barry------Hegazi------
Phillips-----------------------------------------Gibbs
---------------Livermore-----Field------------
----------------------Barnes------------------------
-----------------Gayle------J-Rod--------------------

With Dawson and Hegazi as the "defending" defenders and Barry there to pass it out of defense.

Offline kie the baggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2018, 02:30:44 PM »
I think that three at the back still has potential tbf.
I would like to see:

------------------Johnstone-------------------
------Dawson------Barry------Hegazi------
Phillips-----------------------------------------Gibbs
---------------Livermore-----Field------------
----------------------Barnes------------------------
-----------------Gayle------J-Rod--------------------

With Dawson and Hegazi as the "defending" defenders and Barry there to pass it out of defense.
Very much this but I would replace field with harper, field for a 20 year old does lack energy and harper a much better footballer.

Offline leeiswba

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2018, 03:22:53 PM »
Johnstone

Gibbs
Hegazi
Bartley
Dawson

Livermore
Barry/Field

Sakho/Brunt
Barnes
Phillips

Gayle

That would be my team now I think, a centre back and a centre midfielder would then be a priority in January

Offline Albionic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2018, 03:30:20 PM »
Have to say that I do like the idea of Barry in the back 4 or just very slightly advanced of a back 3, he should be a capable Libero at this level.
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Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2018, 03:45:13 PM »
I think that three at the back still has potential tbf.
I would like to see:

------------------Johnstone-------------------
------Dawson------Barry------Hegazi------
Phillips-----------------------------------------Gibbs
---------------Livermore-----Field------------
----------------------Barnes------------------------
-----------------Gayle------J-Rod--------------------

With Dawson and Hegazi as the "defending" defenders and Barry there to pass it out of defense.

Brian Dick in the Brummie Mail has also advocated using Barry in the centre of the defensive 3, it might well be worth a punt since he is at least a ball player and could help with distribution.
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Offline Albionic

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2018, 04:08:28 PM »
________Johnston __________

 Dawson----Hegazi------  Tosin

--------------Barry--------------

Phillips -----Livermore--------Gibbs

     Sako---------------Barnes

---------------Gayle--------------

subs, Myhill, Field, Morrison, Bartley(sadly), JRod, Hoolahan, Burke
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Offline mulliganstired

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Re: System tactics personnel
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2018, 06:08:57 PM »
Have to say that I do like the idea of Barry in the back 4 or just very slightly advanced of a back 3, he should be a capable Libero at this level.
I think he'd get caught out for pace at centre half, but in the old Beckenbauer sweeper role he'd surely bring some calmness to things