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Author Topic: 24 Oct 2018 Albion 1 Derby County 4  (Read 15293 times)

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Offline LiamTheBaggie

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #375 on: October 25, 2018, 02:21:40 PM »
Yacob?? Not at all.  What we don't need is another slow midfielder that can't pass.  How's he doing at forest?

Whilst I agree he is not the answer - to play the system needs someone who can sit and protect the back three.

None of our midfielders are capable of doing that it is sheer stupidity that we continue to operate in such a fashion.
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Offline LiamTheBaggie

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Re: Ratings
« Reply #376 on: October 25, 2018, 02:25:50 PM »
Johnstone - 5 - does not command the box. Awful with the ball. Not much chance with the goals however

Tosin - 4 - Awful. No good with the ball and not much better at defending either.

Dawson - 4 - See above. Terrible attitude to match his terrible performance.

Bartley - 3 - Disastrous defender.

Brunt - 4 - Not a central midfielder and severely over run

Field - 4 - Cannot influence the game because he was over run

Phillips - 6 - Lack of game time showed but a list looked like he wanted to run forwards

Barnes - 6 - We rely on the boy far too much.

Gayle - 5 - Not his greatest night

Rodriguez - 4 - Lol
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Offline GrGr

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #377 on: October 25, 2018, 09:17:02 PM »
We don't have a decent midfielder in the squad, sure we have some promising youngsters but the team is heavily loaded with old work horses and not one creative talent in sight.

This drives me up the wall too. I talked years ago about the need to prepare for the day our old work horses (Brunt, Morrison etc) got old in the tooth. Yet here we are with "not one creative talent in sight".

It is simply poor management from a club with our resources.
 

Offline Atomic

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #378 on: October 25, 2018, 09:24:37 PM »
We DO have decent midfielders. Livermore and Barry are both ex England internationals, Field is from what I can make out very highly thought of at England U20 level. Morrison and Hoolahan are good footballers. All have quality at this level that other clubs don't have. What we have is an unbalanced and leggy midfield and often an outnumbered one. In this day and age there are a lot of team that have three men in the middle in one system or another.






Offline GrGr

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #379 on: October 26, 2018, 03:31:51 AM »
We DO have decent midfielders. Livermore and Barry are both ex England internationals, Field is from what I can make out very highly thought of at England U20 level. Morrison and Hoolahan are good footballers. All have quality at this level that other clubs don't have. What we have is an unbalanced and leggy midfield and often an outnumbered one. In this day and age there are a lot of team that have three men in the middle in one system or another.

Brunt, Morrison, Barry, Hoolahan are all old war horses long in the tooth. This list only highlights the problem. Too many players far past their best. Then we have Livermore who is erratic and Field who is unproven. This situation is brought about by poor management.

Offline frazzle

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #380 on: October 26, 2018, 07:19:39 AM »
I think we need to give Field and Livermore a run together. field showed he was mobile and we know he can pass the ball. But he needs a run and I bet he would play better on Saturday than he did Wednesday if he gets a start.

Offline Atomic

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #381 on: October 26, 2018, 07:54:32 AM »
Brunt, Morrison, Barry, Hoolahan are all old war horses long in the tooth. This list only highlights the problem. Too many players far past their best. Then we have Livermore who is erratic and Field who is unproven. This situation is brought about by poor management.


You say they are past their best and maybe they are past their peak but Barry has still been one of the best players on the pitch when he's played this season. Morrison, on the brief occasions we've seen him has been the same. Livermore has had his best spell in an Albion shirt this season and the last few games of last season.

I don't count Brunt as he is not a central midfielder and is half the problem with whoever is playing alongside him having one hell of a task trying to compensate for someone who does not think like a central midfielder and cannot effectively perform the role. That added to the fact that we are often outnumbered in the middle is the real problem. I challenge any midfielder to excel in those circumstances.

Offline caravanc58

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #382 on: October 26, 2018, 08:38:38 AM »
we shouldn't be overrun in midfield when playing 3 at the back. minus the goalkeeper and two forwards you'd think the other five outfield players would be at least give teams a problem. Derby went through us like a bad curry.

Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #383 on: October 26, 2018, 08:44:16 AM »
we shouldn't be overrun in midfield when playing 3 at the back. minus the goalkeeper and two forwards you'd think the other five outfield players would be at least give teams a problem. Derby went through us like a bad curry.

The wing backs are often caught out wide and Barnes doesn't particularly help out with defending so the 5 quickly becomes just 2.
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Offline Albionic

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #384 on: October 26, 2018, 09:50:20 AM »
Derby starting line up contained under 25

Lawrence age 24
Marriott 24
Mount 19 - loaned
Wilson 21 - loaned
Tomori 20 - loaned
Bogle 18

We had
Barnes 20 - loaned
Field 20
Tosin 21 - loaned

Derby 6 u-25,    WBA 3 u-25  and by god did the energy and enthusiasm show

Darren has to get over the age thing, good enough = old enough at any level.
Or does he really think the kids he has been a large part of nurturing are simply not good enough, if so, he needs to start using his extensive contacts to get some more "good enough" kids in on loan.

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Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #385 on: October 26, 2018, 10:26:38 AM »
Derby starting line up contained under 25

Lawrence age 24
Marriott 24
Mount 19 - loaned
Wilson 21 - loaned
Tomori 20 - loaned
Bogle 18

We had
Barnes 20 - loaned
Field 20
Tosin 21 - loaned

Derby 6 u-25,    WBA 3 u-25  and by god did the energy and enthusiasm show

Darren has to get over the age thing, good enough = old enough at any level.
Or does he really think the kids he has been a large part of nurturing are simply not good enough, if so, he needs to start using his extensive contacts to get some more "good enough" kids in on loan.

I agree that good enough is old enough but I don't think it's as simple as you are making it seem though. Are the younger players better than the older players or do they offer anything different? For example we could have started with Edwards, Burke or Leko instead of Phillips on Wednesday but are they any better than him, do they offer anything different? Same with the other kids in different positions.

I'd rather see Burke come on for Gayle/Rodriguez instead of HRK though, especially as he has been scoring regularly for the PL2 side as he does offer something different in that he has pace.
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Offline Albionic

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #386 on: October 26, 2018, 10:41:18 AM »
I agree that good enough is old enough but I don't think it's as simple as you are making it seem though. Are the younger players better than the older players or do they offer anything different? For example we could have started with Edwards, Burke or Leko instead of Phillips on Wednesday but are they any better than him, do they offer anything different? Same with the other kids in different positions.

I'd rather see Burke come on for Gayle/Rodriguez instead of HRK though, especially as he has been scoring regularly for the PL2 side as he does offer something different in that he has pace.

The point i failed to get across was "are our kids good enough?, if not, what does DM do?
Derby on wednesday had 6 who were good enough, we had 3 of which only 1 was a WBA product (who likely only played because JL was suspended).
It seems to indicate either bad management by DM et al or a failing development system
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Offline Oldbury24

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #387 on: October 26, 2018, 11:54:06 AM »
WOW! I have really enjoyed the season so far but I WAS expecting us to get a hammering at some point as part of the process.  However, for some reason I didn't expect such a comprehensive defeat and my boy was ready to go home at goal 3.  A tough night.    I've waiting to post as could only see negatives 24 hours later, but a couple of nights sleep help turn the glass upside down a little.  Just a few main thoughts

Negatives: 
Out-thought, outfought and outplayed both on an individual level and as a team tactically.  I've done some occasional coaching (amateur with a capital A) and was trying to work out what Derby were doing differently to other teams.....well the answer was nothing.  They just did it better, faster and in greater numbers.  Had us completely worked out.   A REALLY high press, hunting in packs (a la Barca) and when they broke on us it was with six or seven players at PACE.  Quiet exhilarating if your a Derby fan....and I imagine what it looks like as an opposition fan watching us when we are on our game.

CM - We all know it!!!  Did not expect us to miss Livermore, but we did.   Without his industry and experience alongside him, Brunty really looked like what he is; a player totally out of position.  He can come on and make an impact in CM but he should NOT start.   My first reaction was also that Sam Field was equally poor; sluggish on the ball, slow to turn so easily closed down, easily outmuscled and surprisingly beaten for pace on a number of occasions.   However, we have to remember that he is still very inexperienced and was having to carry his senior pro.  There may still be a role for him, but at the moment it can only be as a player that can break the lines running forward, not one who can come short to the defence and begin a movement. Could he develop this given time?  A potential defender in a back three? Can't tell from that performance.

Defence - As an (ex) defender myself I don't like to jump on the back three or four as they are being asked to do a LOT.   At times last night they must have been looking up and only seeing blue shirts coming at them as neither the CM's or wing backs were providing good options.  As with Livermore, we missed Hegazi, although against that Derby press he may have been a bad accident waiting to happen with his Cruyf turns on the edge of his own box.  Often the back 5 including the keeper seemed uncertain whether to stick or twist, they were desperate to keep passing it as per the managers instructions but JRods mistake unnerved the whole team.  By the end they looked like they had lost belief in what they were doing and It got a bit embarrassing watching Bartlett being given the ball almost on our goal line as they were pressing that high, and then panicking when he looked up and saw NO out ball.   We cannot play with that line-up again; we want our back three to play like Beckanbaur coming out and playing to feet,  but instead we are getting the opposite and making decent (well, half decent) professional defenders look like park footballers.

Positives

Creating chances - as much as I'm sure we were completely outplayed by the RAMS, we could also still have scored three or four more goals on another day (my boy had begged me to leave before the Bartlett handball so not even counting that one)  JRod finding the keeper when Gayle was free on goal, the still brilliant Harvey Barnes whistling about 3 shots just wide of the post that looked like they were heading for the corner and Sam Field bursting forward and cracking one wide.   If we lose Barnes this could change, but at the moment even when we are at our worst we still carry threat.

Change of formation - as much as Darren Moore wants three at the back to work, the fact that we appeared to change formation? mid game was a minor positive for me (I hadn't picked that up I was too busy placating my boy telling me how torturous it was).  We should not lose our footballing principles but we do have to change formation to match our squad against the better teams and away from home.   It may dilute our threat but we cannot be left that open again, as those kind of defeats will shatter any confidence the back line and keeper have.   We have a number of passing midfielders, Jimmy looked like Jimmy, Hoolahan is tidy and I would like to get a another look again at Harper (as well as, or instead of Field).  Throw in Barry and Livermore and there should be a decent three in there.  We may lose Barnes in the number 10 role but on paper a front three made up from Barnes, Sakho, Gayle (or JRod I guess), Phillips and Edwards is a damn good one.  If we go four in the middle then Barnes can play out wide and drift in, and Phillips can put in a shift on the right to make up numbers. There has to be more options that the team can fall back into naturally.  All about the training pitch - this is the real test now.

Big Dave - for some he is already becoming a negative, for me still a positive.  A new, young manager who is learning on the job at the sharp end of a division.  I would have been very happy with Dean Smith, as he has already done his apprentice at smaller clubs with much lower expectations.   Will this translate to a bigger club?  Instinct says he'll do ok at the Seal Sanctuary, but these fans are seriously fickle and a bad run will soon leads to the calls for a "bigger name"....nothing in football is guaranteed.   Unless the wheels completely fall off Big Dave has my support for the duration of the season.   I said from the start that play-offs would be an achievement given the position he took over as I don't buy into the line that "we have Premier League players so should be favourites" - as they are not, which is why we are not!!  We had two players of genuine Premier League quality in our team, and they have both gone.   Just because a player has a Premier League fee and wages, it does not mean he is a Premier League quality footballer - somewhere in-between Championship and Premier League maybe.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 12:06:09 PM by Oldbury24 »

Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #388 on: October 26, 2018, 12:14:21 PM »
The point i failed to get across was "are our kids good enough?, if not, what does DM do?
Derby on wednesday had 6 who were good enough, we had 3 of which only 1 was a WBA product (who likely only played because JL was suspended).
It seems to indicate either bad management by DM et al or a failing development system

Ah I see, we seem to agree then!
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Offline Adder

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Re: After Match Debate
« Reply #389 on: October 26, 2018, 09:02:31 PM »
The point i failed to get across was "are our kids good enough?, if not, what does DM do?
Derby on wednesday had 6 who were good enough, we had 3 of which only 1 was a WBA product (who likely only played because JL was suspended).
It seems to indicate either bad management by DM et al or a failing development system
Just to be clear, of Derby's 6, three are on loan (2 from Chelsea of course) and also Lawrence and Marriott are not Derby academy products.