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Offline alex1

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #125 on: February 01, 2019, 11:58:39 AM »
Yes, in the ideal world you buy rather than loan to build continuity in the squad. But I'm not at all criticising the current strategy, as we are not a particularly rich club that can just chuck money around. If permanent signings don't come off, we've tied our hands, preventing funds being available for the next windows.
Also, with loan players we get an opportunity to see if they perform and how they blend into the squad. In many cases the club can then decide to turn the loan into a permanaent deal.
 
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Offline gerry m

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #126 on: February 01, 2019, 12:09:03 PM »
Yes, in the ideal world you buy rather than loan to build continuity in the squad. But I'm not at all criticising the current strategy, as we are not a particularly rich club that can just chuck money around. If permanent signings don't come off, we've tied our hands, preventing funds being available for the next windows.
Also, with loan players we get an opportunity to see if they perform and how they blend into the squad. In many cases the club can then decide to turn the loan into a permanaent deal.

Very well put. Should we get back into the Premier League hopefully the purse strings would be loosened to buy who ever we need.

Offline skyclad99

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #127 on: February 01, 2019, 12:35:18 PM »
Some people just seem incapable of positivity.
We were in a strong position anyway, 4th, top scorers, on a good run etc. so, even without signings, we would have competed for auto. The fact that we have brought in 3 players that not only improve our squad, but most likely our starting 11, is beyond my expectations.
To complain that  they are "only" on loan, is simply looking for a negative in a positive situation. It's almost as if their pre-deadline cynicism has been dashed so they just have to find something else to moan about.
We are in a very precocious position, whereby promotion is very important, but by no means guaranteed, so buying players on long term contracts and wages, could hamstring us should we fail to go up. By choosing to loan, it allows us to cut our cloth accordingly, whether we get promoted or not.
Good job by all concerned, Moore, Dowling and Jenkins.

Thank god Sturridge and Krychowiak were only 'on loan' or else we would have been wound up some time ago!
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Offline Backofthenet

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #128 on: February 01, 2019, 12:41:20 PM »
To be fair to all at the club, the business done in this window appears to have been done pretty diligently and within everyone's interest.
We aren't breaking the bank for players, we have time to look at the ones we've signed, we (the supporters) are happy that we have new signings to look forward too, the team is being backed and what is more important we haven't been ripped off as a lot are in January for players no-one wants. We also appear to have signed players to do specific jobs and lets hope it is as successful as we currently feel.

Well done to all those involved

Offline OldburyWBA

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #129 on: February 01, 2019, 01:47:27 PM »
I think whether he will be a success or failure in his role will come in the Summer, we have 6 loanees plus Barry/ Brunt getting on and both out of contract in the Summer plus Myhill who I guess would be released for good after the recent performances of Bond allowing for a younger number 3 and then Hoolahan and Mears who will also be released for good so thats 11 players although I expect Brunt to get another deal regardless and then Morrison will decide if we are worthy of him being here again.

Big big Summer regardless of division and if we do go up we cannot rely on loan players as we are doing this season. If we don't go up then we will lose a couple maybe from Dawson, Rodriguez, Phillips, Livermore as I cannot see them wanting another season in this league.
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Offline paulosull

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #130 on: February 01, 2019, 02:41:55 PM »
Missing my point that all these loans hinder the development of our youngsters who are coming through the ranks

Offline mulliganstired

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #131 on: February 01, 2019, 03:01:10 PM »
Missing my point that all these loans hinder the development of our youngsters who are coming through the ranks
Tough to get the balance right, we did need some bodies in with Barnes and Sako away, but I still hope to see Harper and Field get some starts, and Leko at least on the bench.  Bond should definitely be on the bench now too.  We got it so badly wrong recently, expecially under Pulis, that we lost players like Roofe and Roberts without even giving them a chance.  Whether they're going to be good enough for the prem isn't clear yet, but the academy can't just be for flogging 18/19 y prospects to Oxford and Walsall to cover costs or we may as well not bother.

Offline paulosull

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #132 on: February 01, 2019, 03:09:20 PM »
Tough to get the balance right, we did need some bodies in with Barnes and Sako away, but I still hope to see Harper and Field get some starts, and Leko at least on the bench.  Bond should definitely be on the bench now too.  We got it so badly wrong recently, expecially under Pulis, that we lost players like Roofe and Roberts without even giving them a chance.  Whether they're going to be good enough for the prem isn't clear yet, but the academy can't just be for flogging 18/19 y prospects to Oxford and Walsall to cover costs or we may as well not bother.
really impressed with Bond looks a cracking prospect,

Offline seteefeet

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #133 on: February 01, 2019, 03:24:26 PM »
Missing my point that all these loans hinder the development of our youngsters who are coming through the ranks
It won't hinder them if they are good enough.

Offline AlbionFan

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #134 on: February 01, 2019, 06:04:35 PM »
I think whether he will be a success or failure in his role will come in the Summer, we have 6 loanees plus Barry/ Brunt getting on and both out of contract in the Summer plus Myhill who I guess would be released for good after the recent performances of Bond allowing for a younger number 3 and then Hoolahan and Mears who will also be released for good so thats 11 players although I expect Brunt to get another deal regardless and then Morrison will decide if we are worthy of him being here again.

Big big Summer regardless of division and if we do go up we cannot rely on loan players as we are doing this season. If we don't go up then we will lose a couple maybe from Dawson, Rodriguez, Phillips, Livermore as I cannot see them wanting another season in this league.

Agree with all of that, but, and there's always a but, it depends on whether or not Mr Lai is prepared to back Luke and by how much (£m's)
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Offline Oldbury24

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #135 on: February 01, 2019, 07:18:11 PM »
Not impressed with the job this bloke is doing or is he being hamstrung by Jenkins and owner? Albion used to find a few gems which didn't cost the earth from around the lower leagues and in far flung places, Dorrans, Mulumbu, Yacob, Koren to name a few.

Nope wrong.  Simply wrong.   Football has moved on, had you not noticed.

Job is to get in players to help us get promoted.   This guarantees money in the bank.  Then we build in the summer for the future.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 07:21:05 PM by Oldbury24 »

Offline Standaman

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #136 on: February 01, 2019, 08:36:26 PM »
Several points here.

Any Director Football can only work within the budget that the club sets their job is to the best he can within the parameters that they are given.

The fall out from relegation is that the club will be in state of flux consider the structure of the parachute payments and the Championship broadcast income.

Year 1 £42m
Year 2 £34m
Year 3 £17m
Year 4 £7.6m

Contracts that the club could comfortably afford now will be obviously be out of our range in year 3 let alone year 4 this greatly limits our ability to offer permanent contracts. To give a praticial example in terms of what that means is that is we can afford the Holgate loan this year and next but it will only happening in  year 3 and 4 if Everton are happy to pick up some of his wages (which will mean they would only let him go for gaurenteed game time)

Obviously promotion transforms the picture and at this point we are probably a coin flip for promotion this season but we cannot count on it.

This is the background against which to judge Dowling's actions. To some extent everything at the moment is a short term fix.

I never understand the criticism of timing of deals particualrly in January. If you look at the deals on that are done the last week of the window they account for at least 50% of the deals that are done. There are several reasons for this but the not the least is it's just human nature.

Equally circumstances beyond the DoF's control dictate timing as much as anything that is under their control. Barnes went back to Leicester on 11th had he not I am fairly certain we would not have pursued Murphy.


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Offline Baggies

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #137 on: February 02, 2019, 09:30:21 AM »
Have seen a few comments talking about “a club like ours can’t afford to plan for the future”, and “premier league players don’t want to come to the championship”. I think both are wrong and a bit “black and white”, binary thinking.

It isn’t about signing prem proven players. The skill is finding players who other clubs hadn’t yet realised were prem players.

If anyone follows horse racing, think about a time form racing card. Horses get a rating. That rating changes throughout their career. What you ideally want to back, is a horse with a slightly lower rating, but an up arrow next to their name. That horse is still untested at the top levels but it has room for improvement as it keeps stepping up in quality. It is a bit of an unknown, but if you pick the right untested ones, you can be very successful.

2013, Leicester. Danny Drinkwater, Riyad Mahrez, Jamie Vardy, Chris Wood, Jeffrey Schlupp, Kasper Schmeichel, Andy King and Wes Morgan all lined up in a promotion winning side. All of these players, up to this window, turned out to be “premier league players”. None of them were yet seen as “premier league players” at the time.

We haven’t had a bad January and in a short space of time, it is hard for Dowling to get it perfect. But, what we need to aspire to be doing, is what Leicester managed to do in 2013 and what we managed to do at the end of the last decade, finding the likes of Koren, Dawson, Mulumbu, Dorrans, Morrison, Brunt.

And on top of that, we need to get a clear view on our academy kids, and giving the, routes to develop (loan deals).

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Offline Albion79

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #138 on: February 02, 2019, 11:01:07 AM »
I think the club have been sensible with this window and the summer one in that they have made use of the major advantage we have this season over 21 other clubs in this league - we were newly relegated from the premier league.

Even with our cutbacks we still have a huge financial advantage, Swansea did too but they seem to be in all sorts of a bother, Stoke did and also have the backing of the Coates but fortunately for us they seemed to of made a mistake appointing Rowett and overpaying on very average players which the new manager is saddled with, so our way of doing things at the moment looks the right one.

We have this season to almost throw everything at getting promoted (which is all our owners will want) i dont imagine there is too much thought to 2 or 3 seasons time, we kept the bulk of the players we wanted and we have used our extra financial gain to bring in the likes of Holgate, Gayle, Murphy, etc all of whom will be on very good wages for championship football.

The loan market made sense for us for now, Dowling only joined in September, he will have a book of contacts from previous clubs but i suppose he has to see how Albion work, budgets, etc and put that in place, i dont think we will see the benefits of him until the summer but i do think he has negotiated us some good loan deals for our present situation.

Next season whether with us or not i expect that Holgate, Tosin, Dawson, Hegazi, Gibbs, Livermore, Phillips, Jrod, Gayle, Murphy will all be playing premier league football, some may go newly promoted clubs, others lower half to midtable clubs but the majority of those will be back in the premier league.

If we go up then i expect our own players will stay unless crazy offers come in, the good thing i think about the loans we have got is with the exception of Holgate (who i would assume Everton see his future with them, maybe Tosin at City too) all the other players we could sign if we wanted too, there will be deals to be done. Its not like when we had Lukaku on loan when we knew we werent going to be paying 20m for permanent, most of our loanees could be potential permanent signings, its a good solution in that we get to look at them, they get to look at us.

If we dont go up then thats where the academy players will step up as potentially we will lose upto 7-9 players as per above, the other loans such as Johansen and Montero will be up in the air in that we wont be paying probably £20-30k a week wages in the championship next season unless its for existing contracts. The likes of Mears, Myhill, possibly Morrison will be moved on (maybe Hoolahan) so potentially your looking at 10-12 players out our current squad realistically not being here next season, our budget will be very different next year with the parachute money dropping so thats why i would hope and assume Dowling is currently seeking bargains incase that scenario happens.

All clubs say it but the next 4-5 months are huge for our owners (as a fan i am not that arsed about getting promoted) because if we dont go up there will be a very different team next season, its now or never for this group of Albion players.

On paper if everyone is fit i would say our squad is too big now and i would like to of seen Leko, Edwards and Field go on loan, but included in the squad is Gayle, Phillips, Morrison and Montero all of whom have history of being injured a lot, plus i think between now and the end of the season there are only 5 weeks where we dont play midweek (maybe more if we beat Brighton in the cup as the Villa game will be moved) so the likes of Barry i think will struggle for 90 mins twice a week, plus we will pick up other injuries and suspensions as well as the more likely ones listed above so i think Dowling has played it well with our situation as it is now, we are taking advantage of our status as one of the leagues big boys this season whilst we can because next season it could be very different.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 11:04:54 AM by Albion79 »

Offline Standaman

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #139 on: February 02, 2019, 11:34:03 AM »
I agree with a lot of what Albion 79 and Baggies have posted. This season is unique and given we are in the promotion mix the approach is entirely driven by the need to sustain that promotion push. I suspect had we bombed this season and were off the pace the process of breaking up the squad would have already started.

I have some sympathy with Baggies view on loaning out the youngsters and given they will have much more prominent roles next year if we don't get promoted some more game time would have greatly enhanced their readiness. I would add a caveat that not all loans are good for player development the what doesn't kill you makes you stronger school of development does not always work, picking the right destination for kids is important and if it isn't right then they are better staying at the club. 
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Offline BigFrank20

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #140 on: February 02, 2019, 12:17:18 PM »
It isn’t about signing prem proven players. The skill is finding players who other clubs hadn’t yet realised were prem players.
If anyone follows horse racing, think about a time form racing card. Horses get a rating. That rating changes throughout their career. What you ideally want to back, is a horse with a slightly lower rating, but an up arrow next to their name. That horse is still untested at the top levels but it has room for improvement as it keeps stepping up in quality. It is a bit of an unknown, but if you pick the right untested ones, you can be very successful.
2013, Leicester. Danny Drinkwater, Riyad Mahrez, Jamie Vardy, Chris Wood, Jeffrey Schlupp, Kasper Schmeichel, Andy King and Wes Morgan all lined up in a promotion winning side. All of these players, up to this window, turned out to be “premier league players”. None of them were yet seen as “premier league players” at the time.
You are sort of advocating the 'moneyball'  approach here I suspect and which is an approach or attitude of mind I personally have no problem with
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Offline paulosull

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #141 on: February 02, 2019, 12:31:44 PM »
It won't hinder them if they are good enough.
our coaching staff seem to be very slow in giving our youngsters a.game in the league.

Offline paulosull

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #142 on: February 02, 2019, 12:35:09 PM »
Nope wrong.  Simply wrong.   Football has moved on, had you not noticed.

Job is to get in players to help us get promoted.   This guarantees money in the bank.  Then we build in the summer for the future.
tell that to Leeds, Norwich ang Sheffield United who are above us in league, majority of their squads are contracted to their clubs.

Offline overseas baggie

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #143 on: February 02, 2019, 12:48:48 PM »
tell that to Leeds, Norwich ang Sheffield United who are above us in league, majority of their squads are contracted to their clubs.

But in their case they have been in the Championship for several years and don’t have parachute payments to use to try to ensure a swift return to the Premier League.  As soon as a club accepts that it’s not going up straight away and is going to have to do so without parachute payments then it needs to happen by building a squad from the bottom, ie the Academy and by buying players from Leagues 1 and 2, and by relying on good quality coaches like those 3 clubs to get the most out of those players.

Offline OllieTheBaggie

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #144 on: February 27, 2019, 05:54:51 PM »
I must say I think our recruitments been much better since Dowling's come into the club, so credit to him and all involved with that side of the club this season. Made some solid signings this season on a shoestring.

Offline Wigmore

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #145 on: February 28, 2019, 11:47:36 PM »
Missing my point that all these loans hinder the development of our youngsters who are coming through the ranks
Exactly who is Holgate keeping out of the team?
And I hope you are not suggesting that the likes of Lecko should be installed in place of Daley Gayle.
You would have a stronger argument complaining about our own geriatrics cluttering up the squad and hindering our youth development

Offline iwastherein68

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #146 on: March 02, 2019, 05:40:13 PM »
What on earth must Dowling be thinking when none of our recent captures gets to start in our most import game of the season?
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Offline BalisPen

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #147 on: May 15, 2019, 11:21:21 PM »
I am putting up an official reward of 25p and Ron Atkinson spotters badge for anyone who can provide proof of life in relation to luke dowling.

He's like big foot, you see grainy pictures of him, but does he actually exist?

Online TheJacko2000

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #148 on: May 16, 2019, 01:57:53 AM »
What on earth must Dowling be thinking when none of our recent captures gets to start in our most import game of the season?


That he's an abject failure?
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Offline LiamTheBaggie

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Re: Director of Football
« Reply #149 on: May 16, 2019, 01:16:59 PM »
He should be following Jenkins right out the door.
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