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Offline Albionic

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2275 on: December 04, 2018, 09:18:01 AM »
Bizarrely we could have lost that were it not for an excellent save from Johnston, the scary thing for me is that once we sat back we conceded (again)
Every manager watching will have seen that and we can expect to be put under pressure in up coming games
a) because it nullifies our potency upfront (we create chances for fun)
b) because even the poorest teams score against us
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Offline seteefeet

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2276 on: December 04, 2018, 09:23:22 AM »
Moore would argue that Brentford should have been out of sight.

However as a coach he has to deal with things in the present moment it was obvious to everyone in the stadium we had dropped off and even more so that we had a couple of players running on fumes .He didn’t react and this is an ongoing concern. Not only would a sub have given us fresh legs but it would also have broken the game up .

Moore didn’t even have the subs warming up and that tells its own story.
It would also have given Mozza and / or Phillips an extra 20 mins rest before a massive game on Friday.
Absolutely no excuse for not using all 3 subs last night, bordering on madness. If we play the same 11 against Villa then tiredness could be our downfall.
If Kanu is injured, I can see us reverting to 352 with Brunt coming back in, which does not bode well against a team that has scored a dozen goals in 3 games.

Offline skyclad99

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2277 on: December 04, 2018, 09:34:44 AM »
I'd certainly have raised the issue, not sure about anyone else. It was crying out for fresh legs

I don't disagree with you there Fritzl. If you are saying to the bloke next to you at 80+ minutes 'they are going to score here' then something must be wrong. I did last night and I think everyone else in the ground did the same, because we have been there before. So why didnt the management team see it?
I have said on another thread I hope Darren learnt something from last nights game. I am a big Darren fan but his substitutions [or lack of] are puzzling at times........ 
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Offline Fritzl Palace

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2278 on: December 04, 2018, 09:48:22 AM »
I don't disagree with you there Fritzl. If you are saying to the bloke next to you at 80+ minutes 'they are going to score here' then something must be wrong. I did last night and I think everyone else in the ground did the same, because we have been there before. So why didnt the management team see it?
I have said on another thread I hope Darren learnt something from last nights game. I am a big Darren fan but his substitutions [or lack of] are puzzling at times........

It's exactly what we were all saying, it was clear as day for all to see...except for the only ones who can actually effect it.

His substitutions all season have been horrendous. He is a rookie manager, but I do not see him learning from his mistakes which is the biggest worry.

Offline Pie

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2279 on: December 04, 2018, 09:49:22 AM »
Certain players have to take the blame for not scoring in the first half, we should have been 3-0 up (if not more). We could have then taken it easy in the 2nd half, rested key players by taking them off early.

However DM has to take responsibility for not changing it up when Brentford put us under pressure. As said above everyone could see the goal coming.

I have said previously that DM is so reactive rather than pro-active in his substitutions. Last night he wasn't even reactive as he made no changes after Brentford did. I did see the cameras focus on Jones and he seemed to indicate a back 3 with about 10 mins to go. I wonder if the defenders would not have got confused to let a man drift between them if they were still playing as a 4.


Offline baggiejohn

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2280 on: December 04, 2018, 12:09:01 PM »
Moore would argue that Brentford should have been out of sight.

However as a coach he has to deal with things in the present moment it was obvious to everyone in the stadium we had dropped off and even more so that we had a couple of players running on fumes .He didn’t react and this is an ongoing concern. Not only would a sub have given us fresh legs but it would also have broken the game up .

Moore didn’t even have the subs warming up and that tells its own story.

IMO, it was the fact that Brentford gamesmanship was breaking the game up, that stopped DM bringing any of our own.
 subs on

Substitutions always carry a risk of breaking the synergy in a team, we've seen it so often where a substitution is often followed by a conceded goal.
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Offline FallOutBoy

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2281 on: December 04, 2018, 01:03:25 PM »
Darren Moore was not the main reason for last nights draw, but he was one of the reason. (I would regard sub-standard finishing as the main cause).

Lots of people in the ground could tell it needed changing, as the players were showing fatigue - that neither he nor Jones could tell is staggering. His comment reveals a lot of naivety, which you wouldn't expect from somebody who had been around the game as long as he has. It's not just managerial naivety, because people who've been watching football could see it.

The subs bench was terrible. When we needed something a bit more dynamic to get through, all we had was Gayle. I don't get the continued exclusion of Sako, Burke, Edwards, or even Leko - at least they offer something different. Hoolahan, Brunt, and Barry offer nothing but steadying the ship, and you don't need three of those players on the bench.

The fact Moore hasn't made any changes to his starting line-up, or from the bench, has put us at a serious disadvantage for Friday night, and that's bad management.

Offline Xpresso

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2282 on: December 04, 2018, 01:37:05 PM »
For me, failure to beat a Brentford side totally devoid of confidence was purely down to management naivety.
Firstly, playing Robson-Kanu as a striker/attacker is a big mistake as far as I'm concerned, mainly because he can't hit the proverbial barn door with a banjo. Okay to bring him on later in the game, but not as first-choice starter. Had Gayle started last night we would have had the game sen up by half time.
Secondly, we're not varying our tactics in the slightest, so teams know exactly what they're going to have to deal with. It was the same when we used three at the back, the opposition adapted their team shape and tactics best suited to combating our strengths.
Thirdly, we're not making good use of the squad. Our midfielders is not the most mobile, Phillips apart, and Morrison, not long back from a lengthy spell out with injury and probably still lacking a bit in match fitness, was left to struggle on when it was clear he was running on empty.
Fourthly, someone needs to be reminding Gibbs that he has defensive responsibilities. He is caught out of position far too often and it's becoming increasingly clear that the weakness is being exploited.
Modern football is played at 90mph and coaches need to adapt quickly when the tide begins to turn, as it did last night after we finally got our noses in front.

Offline colinmax

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2283 on: December 04, 2018, 04:40:24 PM »
Championship football is an 18man game.
How on earth can you have 5players of 35 or older,a good striker and a raw youngster on the bench to supplement your starting 11?
I agree DM should have made substitution of at least  3 players who hadn,t played 90 minutes with the Villa game in mind but surely you should name your subs to cover for every situation.

I didn,t want DM in the first place and suggested Dean Smith while Pulis was still the manager.I hope his appointment does not cost us promotion.

Online Atomic

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2284 on: December 04, 2018, 05:51:46 PM »
IMO, it was the fact that Brentford gamesmanship was breaking the game up, that stopped DM bringing any of our own.
 subs on




That would be concerning as you're basically saying he let Brentford dictate what we do.

Once we scored we should've done what Brentford had been doing. Go down. Bring on subs. Take time over throw in's etc, kill the game. It's not pretty but it's effective and in a scrappy half like the second half yesterday it was just what was needed. We didn't manage that part of the game at all well and it cost us. I'd call it naive the way we managed the remaining time once we'd scored.

Offline Dudleylad

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2285 on: December 04, 2018, 07:11:00 PM »
Completely agree mate.

In addition to Moore stating he didnt feel fresh legs in centre midfield late on in the game is a major concern.

Im trying not to overreact as we are four unbeaten but I do believe the points need to be made.
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Offline Adder

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2286 on: December 04, 2018, 07:40:49 PM »

That would be concerning as you're basically saying he let Brentford dictate what we do.

Once we scored we should've done what Brentford had been doing. Go down. Bring on subs. Take time over throw in's etc, kill the game. It's not pretty but it's effective and in a scrappy half like the second half yesterday it was just what was needed. We didn't manage that part of the game at all well and it cost us. I'd call it naive the way we managed the remaining time once we'd scored.
Bringing on subs for the right reasons was the obvious thing we fell down on. Call me naive but I wouldn't want DM instructing players to go down to take the sting out of the game. Keeping possession is a less cynical way of taking the sting out of opposition momentum. If we did all the things you suggest and then conceded fans would say 'why did we stop playing and take our foot off the gas'.

Online Atomic

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2287 on: December 04, 2018, 07:50:41 PM »
Bringing on subs for the right reasons was the obvious thing we fell down on. Call me naive but I wouldn't want DM instructing players to go down to take the sting out of the game. Keeping possession is a less cynical way of taking the sting out of opposition momentum. If we did all the things you suggest and then conceded fans would say 'why did we stop playing and take our foot off the gas'.


I agree with you in the main part. Monday was one of those games though, we couldn't keep the ball late on so we needed to find another way.

Offline stoxman

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2288 on: December 04, 2018, 07:53:47 PM »
Lots of the posts above use the “naivety” to describe Moore.  I think that is way too generous.  If we let a kid from a local hospice manage a pre season friendly then we could forgive naivety.   If Moore has been undone by some leap of subtlety by a great manager then we could forgive naivety.

Moore may be relatively new to management but he has played 600 games of senior football. He has been in the game professionally for 30 years.  He has been in the dressing room with every kind of player and manager.  He has defended against some of the world’s greatest strikers.  He has played in front of 50k fans in massive stadiums.

Not knowing whether to substitute players who are almost unable to walk with 5 mins remaining isn’t naive; it is plain stupid.

Would we forgive a 30 year electrician who stuck his fingers in the socket because it’s his first year managing the electrical store??

Offline gazberg

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2289 on: December 04, 2018, 07:56:10 PM »
Spot on Stoxman. He's not new to this sport. I do genuinely like him but as a manager I'm not so sure. He's blind to the blatantly obvious a lot of the time.

Online Atomic

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2290 on: December 04, 2018, 08:02:58 PM »
Spot on Stoxman. He's not new to this sport. I do genuinely like him but as a manager I'm not so sure. He's blind to the blatantly obvious a lot of the time.


Aren't all managers / head coaches like that? Whoever we have in charge people will criticise what they do.

Offline gazberg

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2291 on: December 04, 2018, 11:14:15 PM »

Aren't all managers / head coaches like that? Whoever we have in charge people will criticise what they do.

No i dont think they are all like that. No manager will ever please everyone of course but this is basic, obvious obivous stuff. Persisting with 3-5-2, continual lack of use of subs etc. It's just so obvious it's infuriating.

Offline GREGMT

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2292 on: December 05, 2018, 06:27:56 AM »
Lots of the posts above use the “naivety” to describe Moore.  I think that is way too generous.  If we let a kid from a local hospice manage a pre season friendly then we could forgive naivety.   If Moore has been undone by some leap of subtlety by a great manager then we could forgive naivety.

Moore may be relatively new to management but he has played 600 games of senior football. He has been in the game professionally for 30 years.  He has been in the dressing room with every kind of player and manager.  He has defended against some of the world’s greatest strikers.  He has played in front of 50k fans in massive stadiums.

Not knowing whether to substitute players who are almost unable to walk with 5 mins remaining isn’t naive; it is plain stupid.

Would we forgive a 30 year electrician who stuck his fingers in the socket because it’s his first year managing the electrical store??

I personally don’t get all this negativity at this particular time when we have taken 10pts from a batch of 4 games and in the last we have one we have played some of our best football.

The time when I was annoyed with the management was the run of 4 games when we took 1pt from Derby, Hull, Wigan, Blackburn.  At the time we had Brunt and Bartley playing and we looked disjointed.

This has now been corrected (maybe later than it should’ve been).  There’s no way we’d have been promoted with that line up. 

The 2 issues I see now is integrating Sako/Burke as subs.  Then someone to replace Morrison through the Xmas Period as he tires, who is that going to be? 

Offline divinewind

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2293 on: December 05, 2018, 08:21:47 AM »
I have said before that football is a simple game, the rules and basics are understood by children at Primary school.
I have also said footballers are generally not the sharpest tools in the shed.
Most of us on here, well probably all of us,( some won't admit it for being seen as moaners or Dingles,) can see the obvious in a football game. ie if a player is tired, or if a formation is not working. It's not rocket science.
My biggest  gripe is these so called football managers who leave the best striker in the division on the bench, play left footed players in CM, Cb's at fullback and have strikers working the channels.
What in the name of God is that all about?
Gayle has said he would like to stay, so we keep sticking him on the bench. We play barely average defenders in a back three, despite it keep costing us goals.
Either the man is as dense as a piece of timber or he is so arrogant he doesn't want to admit he's wrong.
I think badges are just a bit of a cosmetic practice to give thick people a bit of confidence, a bit like the Wizard of Oz giving the scarecrow and Lion a diploma and medal.
It's not just Darren, i like the guy, but football in general.
For me a great simple exciting game has been turned more into a game of chess by clueless idiots.
Football is simple, play your best players in their best positions.
Having said that, we are third in the championship and Darren has a great record from the games he had in the prem.
You tell me, is it just beginners luck?

Offline seteefeet

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2294 on: December 05, 2018, 09:10:43 AM »
I personally don’t get all this negativity at this particular time when we have taken 10pts from a batch of 4 games and in the last we have one we have played some of our best football.

The time when I was annoyed with the management was the run of 4 games when we took 1pt from Derby, Hull, Wigan, Blackburn.  At the time we had Brunt and Bartley playing and we looked disjointed.

This has now been corrected (maybe later than it should’ve been).  There’s no way we’d have been promoted with that line up. 

The 2 issues I see now is integrating Sako/Burke as subs.  Then someone to replace Morrison through the Xmas Period as he tires, who is that going to be?
I think the negativity around use of subs is more than justified as it has been an issue throughout Darren's tenure but it certainly doesn't warrant some of the statements we are seeing on here such as clueless, dense, arrogant etc.
Just to re-itterate your points; we are 3rd in the league and on a run of 4 unbeaten.
Your other point also seems to have been very quickly forgotten, in that we played some of the best football I have seen at the hawthorns for years, in that first half. If we had put away the sitters, that Darren's team selection and set up created, we would have gone in 2 or 3 up and I would defy anyone to define that as clueless, dense or arrogant.
It's perfectly acceptable to criticise, it's what a forum is for, but we should also give credit where it's due.
Moore has got things wrong this season but he has also got an awful lot right, more right than wrong in my opinion. If we win Friday, we will cement 3rd place and be a point off top two. That will signal a good weekend in my house  ;D

Online Atomic

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2295 on: December 05, 2018, 09:20:22 AM »
I think the negativity around use of subs is more than justified as it has been an issue throughout Darren's tenure but it certainly doesn't warrant some of the statements we are seeing on here such as clueless, dense, arrogant etc.
Just to re-itterate your points; we are 3rd in the league and on a run of 4 unbeaten.
Your other point also seems to have been very quickly forgotten, in that we played some of the best football I have seen at the hawthorns for years, in that first half. If we had put away the sitters, that Darren's team selection and set up created, we would have gone in 2 or 3 up and I would defy anyone to define that as clueless, dense or arrogant.
It's perfectly acceptable to criticise, it's what a forum is for, but we should also give credit where it's due.
Moore has got things wrong this season but he has also got an awful lot right, more right than wrong in my opinion. If we win Friday, we will cement 3rd place and be a point off top two. That will signal a good weekend in my house  ;D


Great post.

We drew a game and some people are going way over the top. There will be matches we won't win that's football. When we don't win there is no need to keep changing things or having a go at the head coach, perspective is what is needed.

We are third in the table with 26 games to go. We're hardly in crisis.

Offline baggiejohn

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2296 on: December 05, 2018, 09:22:33 AM »

That would be concerning as you're basically saying he let Brentford dictate what we do.

Once we scored we should've done what Brentford had been doing. Go down. Bring on subs. Take time over throw in's etc, kill the game. It's not pretty but it's effective and in a scrappy half like the second half yesterday it was just what was needed. We didn't manage that part of the game at all well and it cost us. I'd call it naive the way we managed the remaining time once we'd scored.

Think this topic has moved on a bit since this conservation, but, I think I would take isssue by your use of the word "dictate"

I'm happy to concede that DM reacted to Brentford's gamesmanship, when perhaps he should have been more pro-active, but I'm not sure he was being dictated to.

I'm also not sure that DM is as naive as people think. We're in a period of transition, & up to the turn of the year, he has an opportunity to experiment. The very nature of experimentation means some times it doesn't work.
IMO, his judgement has been pretty good up to now, & our position in the table tends to support that opinion.
Come the turn of the year, then we reach the business part of the season, & experimentation becomes far more risky. It will be interesting to see what happens then.
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Offline royhan

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2297 on: December 05, 2018, 09:26:16 AM »
I have said before that football is a simple game, the rules and basics are understood by children at Primary school.
I have also said footballers are generally not the sharpest tools in the shed.
Most of us on here, well probably all of us,( some won't admit it for being seen as moaners or Dingles,) can see the obvious in a football game. ie if a player is tired, or if a formation is not working. It's not rocket science.
My biggest  gripe is these so called football managers who leave the best striker in the division on the bench, play left footed players in CM, Cb's at fullback and have strikers working the channels.
What in the name of God is that all about?
Gayle has said he would like to stay, so we keep sticking him on the bench. We play barely average defenders in a back three, despite it keep costing us goals.
Either the man is as dense as a piece of timber or he is so arrogant he doesn't want to admit he'
I think badges are just a bit of a cosmetic practice to give thick people a bit of confidence, a bit like the Wizard of Oz giving the scarecrow and Lion a diploma and medal.
It's not just Darren, i like the guy, but football in general..
For me a great simple exciting game has been turned more into a game of chess by clueless idiots.
Football is simple, play your best players in their best positions.
Having said that, we are third in the championship and Darren has a great record from the games he had in the prem.
You tell me, is it just beginners luck?

Excellent post Divinewind. I am sure that the majority of Albion fans will share your thoughts. Moore was appointed largely because of his past affinity with the club but football is such big business nowadays that there is no room for sentimentality. I'd like to read Jenkins' thoughts today. Knowing what he knows now would he have appointed Moore or Smith? I know which one I would have chosen. A defeat against the Villa will be disastrous for players' confidence and I can see us slipping down the table if we do lose. What has happened to our so called future stars - Leko, Burke and Edwards? They shone in pre-season but have hardly had a look in since as Moore has stuck largely with the players that got us relegated. I fear for the rest of the season.

Offline albion59

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2298 on: December 05, 2018, 09:44:00 AM »
I really despair of what I read on here! We have a bad result against a team we should have  battered but we have no right to expect to batter anyone we are not going to win every game despite what some on here think
 Any way back to Monday night we drew because our strikers couldn't finish and our defenders couldn't defend! How the hell is that Darren Moore's fault? Because Gayle was on the bench? No because if he had started there is no guarantee he would have scored or those chances would have been created also I would have started with the same team that had won the last 3.

Offline Albionic

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2299 on: December 05, 2018, 09:47:49 AM »
Another recurring theme with WBAFC, (not just through DM's tenure, although it persists) is the strategy of sitting back and defending a one goal lead.

Why not keep the ball in the front 2/3 of the pitch, too often when a team drops back into defensive mode the opposition manage to create chances.
What is wrong with running the ball into the corners, passing back and forth across the line and god forbid going for another goal. Yes that will go wrong occasionally but reverting to defensive posture goes wrong REGULARLY.

Before someone says look how many we have scored, i would also point out how many we have conceded particularly against teams in the lower half when leading.

Please, please can we defend from the front,
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