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Offline Mister AT

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2375 on: December 19, 2018, 11:19:45 AM »
Also in assent. Another season at this level would be disastrous.

Agreed.

This summer is going to be a big rebuild regardless of what division we are in - when you factor in Brunt, Barry, Mozza are all on their last legs, Tosin, Gayle and Barnes will return back to their clubs, Sako Wes and Mears will more than likely be let go.

Not to mention any of the players who think they belong in prem, i.e Jay Rod, Hegazi, Dawson, Phillips, Gibbs.

I would rather we were looking at premier league standard players, than building a championship squad.
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Offline The Black Pearl

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2376 on: December 19, 2018, 03:45:29 PM »
I think we need accept the need to yo-yo for a couple of seasons to rebuild our team and ethos, to expect us to stay up, if we get promoted is unrealistic, the solid core of this team is just not there, Darren would be an absolute legend if he managed promotion and stability in the Premiership.
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Offline Albionic

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2377 on: December 19, 2018, 05:14:00 PM »
I have been a "don't want to get back into the greed league" proponent.
This is from a fans perspective, for the club its an absolute necessity, I can see that 100%,

It doesn't mean that I have to want "it" too, especially if maintaining "it" means a return to "survival at any cost" football and good people losing their jobs because we don't have the financial clout to compete.
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Offline TheJacko2000

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2378 on: December 19, 2018, 07:03:04 PM »
I have been a "don't want to get back into the greed league" proponent.
This is from a fans perspective, for the club its an absolute necessity, I can see that 100%,

It doesn't mean that I have to want "it" too, especially if maintaining "it" means a return to "survival at any cost" football and good people losing their jobs because we don't have the financial clout to compete.


I'm talking from a fan perspective. Once this squad is broken up we won't be challenging at the top end of this division. It's not remotely enjoyable being a Championship also ran.
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Offline GREGMT

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2379 on: December 19, 2018, 07:18:17 PM »
Let’s just enjoy the ride and see what happens.

As a fan I can’t say I’m daunted by the Premier as the bottom 12 are as worse as i’ve ever known it.

When you watch 2 teams play from the bottom 12 it is not that dissimilar to the standard at the top of the Champ.

We do need to finish in the Top 2 and get back there.

Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2380 on: December 20, 2018, 07:57:08 AM »
Agreed. Have all these pro championship posters seen the Cardiff team that have a chance of survival, the prem isn’t that hard

The fact that it's not even half way through the Premier league season and you've mentioned a team that might survive suggests that it is that hard a division. If it wasn't a hard division then no one would be talked about in terms of relegation less than half way through a season surely?
 
It's not necessarily about spending money as Fulham have spent something like £100M and look relegated.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 07:58:46 AM by Hull Baggie »
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Online johnny Cash

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2381 on: December 20, 2018, 10:56:09 AM »
"See where we are at Christmas" seems to be a common benchmark so, how are we doing so far?

Sitting 3rd in the league
Guaranteed top 6 by Xmas whatever the results
Top goalscorers
2nd best goal difference
Above teams with bigger budgets and higher profile, experienced managers such as, Boro, Villa, Derby and Forest

All in all, I say a fantastic performance from a rookie manager. B+  Room for improvement but a sterling effort.

Surely most of that is a question of expectation. If you feel we have one of the best two squads then....

Sitting 3rd in the league - slightly under par
Guaranteed top 6 by Xmas whatever the results - if we are 6th it will be well below bar
Top goalscorers - very nice, but the games about winning.  One clean sheet.
2nd best goal difference - One clean sheet

Above teams with bigger budgets - Is this really true, How many bigger budgets than ours are there? Certainly below 2 smaller budgets.
Higher profile - Does profile means much? As a recently relegated side id say our profile is quite high. Harvey Barnes rejected Leeds for us. 
Experienced managers such as Boro, Villa, Derby and Forest. I'd expect to see more correlation with league position and budget than league position and managers experience.

DM is doing OK and he has us in the running. I dont buy any of the superlatives though.


Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2382 on: December 20, 2018, 11:19:26 AM »
Surely most of that is a question of expectation. If you feel we have one of the best two squads then....

Sitting 3rd in the league - slightly under par
Guaranteed top 6 by Xmas whatever the results - if we are 6th it will be well below bar
Top goalscorers - very nice, but the games about winning.  One clean sheet.
2nd best goal difference - One clean sheet


Above teams with bigger budgets - Is this really true, How many bigger budgets than ours are there? Certainly below 2 smaller budgets.
Higher profile - Does profile means much? As a recently relegated side id say our profile is quite high. Harvey Barnes rejected Leeds for us. 
Experienced managers such as Boro, Villa, Derby and Forest. I'd expect to see more correlation with league position and budget than league position and managers experience.

DM is doing OK and he has us in the running. I dont buy any of the superlatives though.

Goals win games though, clean sheets don't. If we kept a clean sheet it just means we won't lose but if we don't score we won't win.

I am concerned about the lack of clean sheets but I'm sure they will come.
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Offline OldburyWBA

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2383 on: December 20, 2018, 12:30:30 PM »
Goals win games though, clean sheets don't. If we kept a clean sheet it just means we won't lose but if we don't score we won't win.

I am concerned about the lack of clean sheets but I'm sure they will come.

Totally understand what you are saying but a clean sheet gives you a base to start from. If you are confident of keeping one it helps relax in other areas and eases pressure, at the moment we go into games expecting to have to score at least 2 per game.

Sam Johnstone kept 20+ clean sheets last season in a defence that for spells contained Mile Jedinak a midfielder at centre half, do I think their defence of Chester/ Terry/ Jedinak is better than ours of Dawson and Hegazi ? no I don't one bit but something is not right for us and needs sorting. Maybe its the midfield that is lacking something in terms of protection for the back four.
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Offline Albionic

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2384 on: December 20, 2018, 12:58:25 PM »
Totally understand what you are saying but a clean sheet gives you a base to start from. If you are confident of keeping one it helps relax in other areas and eases pressure, at the moment we go into games expecting to have to score at least 2 per game.

Sam Johnstone kept 20+ clean sheets last season in a defence that for spells contained Mile Jedinak a midfielder at centre half, do I think their defence of Chester/ Terry/ Jedinak is better than ours of Dawson and Hegazi ? no I don't one bit but something is not right for us and needs sorting. Maybe its the midfield that is lacking something in terms of protection for the back four.

That something would be called Yacob, for his limitations he was a brilliant shield for the back 4, no he doesn't fit the DM model but we do need something akin to CY, that said a Yacob who can pass and get up and down the pitch (a Kante / Mulumbu type) would be worth a small fortune if you could find one.
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Offline FallOutBoy

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2385 on: December 20, 2018, 01:25:02 PM »
Goals win games though, clean sheets don't. If we kept a clean sheet it just means we won't lose but if we don't score we won't win.

I am concerned about the lack of clean sheets but I'm sure they will come.

While goals win games, the lack of clean sheets could derail a promotion push. Take the Brentford game for example; if we had seen out a clean sheet there, we're two points better off. Then we're within one win of Norwich in second, not two. For the sake of one clean sheet.

You can't rely on your strikers to remain in form and score consistently through the season, but if you keep a few clean sheets then it takes the pressure off. You can't keep expecting to score 2 to 3 goals to win a game of football.

Offline Hull Baggie

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2386 on: December 20, 2018, 01:30:47 PM »
While goals win games, the lack of clean sheets could derail a promotion push. Take the Brentford game for example; if we had seen out a clean sheet there, we're two points better off. Then we're within one win of Norwich in second, not two. For the sake of one clean sheet.

You can't rely on your strikers to remain in form and score consistently through the season, but if you keep a few clean sheets then it takes the pressure off. You can't keep expecting to score 2 to 3 goals to win a game of football.

I agree with the points that you and OldburyWBA both make in principle and as I said in my original post the lack of clean sheets is a concern.

I could also reasonably argue that you can't expect our defence to not get better and start keeping a few clean sheets.
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Offline seteefeet

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2387 on: December 20, 2018, 02:25:43 PM »
Surely most of that is a question of expectation. If you feel we have one of the best two squads then....

Sitting 3rd in the league - slightly under par
Guaranteed top 6 by Xmas whatever the results - if we are 6th it will be well below bar
Top goalscorers - very nice, but the games about winning.  One clean sheet.
2nd best goal difference - One clean sheet

Above teams with bigger budgets - Is this really true, How many bigger budgets than ours are there? Certainly below 2 smaller budgets.
Higher profile - Does profile means much? As a recently relegated side id say our profile is quite high. Harvey Barnes rejected Leeds for us. 
Experienced managers such as Boro, Villa, Derby and Forest. I'd expect to see more correlation with league position and budget than league position and managers experience.

DM is doing OK and he has us in the running. I dont buy any of the superlatives though.
Guess your expectations of an imbalanced, relegated squad, under a rookie manager, were greater than mine.

3rd has exceeded my expectations
In the play off places is a good return, just ask the other 2 relegated sides
Forest certainly have a bigger budget than us, as do Villa and Boro most likely. I'm guessing though so could be wrong.
I don't agree that a poor manager with a big budget is better than a good manager with a small budget. If that was true the manager would be rather inconsequential, surely?
A clean sheet has never won a game. We could keep 20 clean sheets in the second half of the season and not get promoted or could keep none and win the league. Goals scored and goal difference are far more important.

My glass is half full again and that's thanks to Big Darren. :D

Offline Albionic

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2388 on: December 20, 2018, 03:59:30 PM »
46 clean sheets can get you relegated, but, never win you anything
scoring more than opposition can get you promoted - simples
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Offline hardtobeat

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2389 on: December 20, 2018, 04:19:51 PM »
46 clean sheets can get you relegated, but, never win you anything
scoring more than opposition can get you promoted - simples
Agree to a point but am willing to bet that if at the end of the season we only keep 2or 3 clean sheets which is what we are on course to do we won't win promotion
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Offline Atomic

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2390 on: December 20, 2018, 06:08:54 PM »
If we keep playing the way we are the clean sheets will start coming. We're not defending badly for the most part, Johnstone can't have had ten shots to save in the last half a dozen games, but we seem to lose concentration and gift teams a goal - usually Dawson and Adarabioyo. 4-0 up against Leeds should've been an easy clean sheet but Dawson switches off and doesn't see the runner he ball watches. Adarabioyo doesn't come across on the cover quickly enough (reading the game). 2-0 up at Ipswich and again we switch off mentally this time Adarabioyo not alert enough which creates a bad touch gifting them a goal. At Sheffield United - again Dawson and Adarabioyo. Dawson doesn't come across but more criminally Adarabioyo doesn't look along the line and step up. ALL of these goals are down to not concentrating well enough.

It might help if we had a proper right back to be fair. Harsh to be too critical of Tosin he's a young lad playing out of his natural position.

If Daws and Tosin can learn to communicate a bit better it'll cut out half the goals we concede.

I'm confident we will. In normal circumstances teams miss a few of the chances we gift them but once you start conceding it becomes a habit. Earlier in the season we conceded more goals from outside the area than I can ever remember us doing. Yes that's down to not closing down and not having the correct shape at times but it's also a bit unlucky that every shot seems to land in the top corner. Sometimes you go through spells like that.

London buses come to mind. Get one clean sheet and we'll probably get two or three in a row.
 

Offline Oldbury24

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2391 on: December 20, 2018, 07:37:23 PM »
Guess your expectations of an imbalanced, relegated squad, under a rookie manager, were greater than mine.

3rd has exceeded my expectations
In the play off places is a good return, just ask the other 2 relegated sides
Forest certainly have a bigger budget than us, as do Villa and Boro most likely. I'm guessing though so could be wrong.
I don't agree that a poor manager with a big budget is better than a good manager with a small budget. If that was true the manager would be rather inconsequential, surely?
A clean sheet has never won a game. We could keep 20 clean sheets in the second half of the season and not get promoted or could keep none and win the league. Goals scored and goal difference are far more important.

My glass is half full again and that's thanks to Big Darren. :D

If there was a like button I'd be pressing it.   It is all down to expectation and I genuinely had no idea what to expect before the season started.    I think a lot is being taken for granted.   Dawson was re integrated after THAT team photo.  Gibbs looks hungry and motivated.  Phillip's is playing his best football for us.  Barnes creativity has been encouraged and we have transitioned a squad used to playing in a dour defensive way and turned them into team scoring goals and occasionally playing scintillating football.   Oh, and by the way.......lets not forget the impact at the end of the year.  So no, not top two but a decent few months work.

Offline Windmill Baggy

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2392 on: December 20, 2018, 07:49:51 PM »
Agree to a point but am willing to bet that if at the end of the season we only keep 2or 3 clean sheets which is what we are on course to do we won't win promotion

While not disagreeing that the team needs to keep more clean sheets in the second half of the season, IMO to a certain extent there is an element of luck when keeping or not keeping the ball out of the net in any given game. In recent matches IMO we have looked pretty comfortable and sides have scored with virtually their first and possibly only chances.

On the other hand teams can keep clean sheets yet seriously ride their luck in doing so, in that the opposition can miss numerous chances. A good example of this is Leeds v Sheff Utd a few weeks back. Sheff Utd created more opportunities v Leeds than they did against us, yet Leeds kept the clean sheet.

Also, however well you defend, you can't legislate for a team scoring a fantastic goal which nothing could be done to prevent it. This was and is one of the big flaws in 'Pulisball' tactics. Nicking 1-0's is all well and good but with a little bit of luck going against you these results can easily swing the other way.

However there isn't a great deal of luck when it comes to being free-scoring, a team is either capable of putting the ball in the net frequently or it is not.

I would also add that apart from Middlesbrough, Leeds and possibly Forest, the other promotion chasing teams have defensive records that are not significantly different from Albion's. (I don't consider having 4,5, 6 goals less conceded over 20+ matches to be 'significant'.)

Score 2+ goals per game on average over the course of a season and a team will be unlucky to not be promoted come the seasons end. We're currently on track for that target.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 11:14:38 PM by Windmill Baggy »

Offline baggie53

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2393 on: December 20, 2018, 08:10:58 PM »
While not disagreeing that the team needs to keep more clean sheets in the second half of the season, IMO to a certain extent there is an element of luck when keeping or not keeping the ball out of the net in any given game. In recent matches IMO we have looked pretty comfortable and sides have scored with virtually their first and possibly only chances.

OTOH teams can keep clean sheets yet seriously ride their luck in doing so, in that the opposition can miss numerous chances. A good example of this is Leeds v Sheff Utd a few weeks back. Sheff Utd created more opportunities v Leeds than they did against us, yet Leeds kept the clean sheet.

Also, however well you defend, you can't legislate for a team scoring a fantastic goal which nothing could be done to prevent it. This was and is one of the big flaws in 'Pulisball' tactics. Nicking 1-0's is all well and good but with a little bit of luck going against you these results can easily swing the other way.

However there isn't a great deal of luck when it comes to being free-scoring, a team is either capable of putting the ball in the net frequently or it is not.

I would also add that apart from Middlesbrough, Leeds and possibly Forest, the other promotion chasing teams have defensive records that are not significantly different from Albion's. (I don't consider having 4,5, 6 goals less conceded over 20+ matches to be 'significant'.)

Score 2+ goals per game on average over the course of a season and a team will be unlucky to not be promoted come the seasons end. We're currently on track for that target.

I might be a bit thick here but what's "OTOH"?
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Offline zippyandbungle

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2394 on: December 20, 2018, 08:42:48 PM »
46 clean sheets can get you relegated, but, never win you anything
scoring more than opposition can get you promoted - simples
That's 46 points
We would stay up
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Offline TheJacko2000

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2395 on: December 20, 2018, 08:48:17 PM »
I might be a bit thick here but what's "OTOH"?


On the other hand.
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Offline costa blanca baggie

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2396 on: December 20, 2018, 10:50:08 PM »
I might be a bit thick here but what's "OTOH"?
I think it’s something to do with being too lazy to type.
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Offline OldburyWBA

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2397 on: December 20, 2018, 10:51:37 PM »
I think it’s something to do with being too lazy to type.

One to add to the text speak list maybe
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Offline skyclad99

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2398 on: December 20, 2018, 10:52:55 PM »
That's 46 points
We would stay up

Also known as the Pulis plan

How boring would that be ....
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Offline SmethDan

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Re: Darren Moore sacked
« Reply #2399 on: December 21, 2018, 11:27:21 AM »
Also known as the Pulis plan

How boring would that be ....

Middlesbrough are on line one.........  ;D .
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