West Brom Dot Com

Author Topic: Devaluing the FA Cup  (Read 5018 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline seteefeet

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 2425
Devaluing the FA Cup
« on: January 06, 2016, 08:59:43 AM »
Not often I agree with old Boulder yed, but I do wholeheartedly with Allardyce's rant, about the fact that we have to play on Tuesday night following the FA 3rd round tie on Saturday. This is just going to provide Prem managers with an excuse to 'rotate' their squads and affect our chances of a cup run. No need for it in my opinion, just the PL exercising their power. I have no doubt they would crush the domestic cups out of existence if they could.
I for one will be fuming if we field a weakened side and lose to Bristol City and Pulis will really go down in my estimation. The side he put out against Norwich was a disgrace, I hope we don't see anything like that on Saturday!
We have a real chance this year, please don't throw it away.
Anyone else angry, or not that bothered with the Cup?

Offline WBAinDEVON

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Manager
  • *****
  • Posts: 18544
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2016, 09:16:01 AM »
dont we play chelski on wed
Born and Bred in Oak Road West Bromwich B71   Est in the swinging sixties

Offline Hull Baggie

  • Global Moderator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2016, 09:34:22 AM »
dont we play chelski on wed
Indeed we do.

I think Allardyce's moan is probably down to the fact that he wants to justify putting a weak side out in the cup.
Sunderland play on Saturday in the cup (at home) and then in the league on Wednesday (away) same as loads of other clubs (including us!)


B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline Albion79

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 1771
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2016, 09:37:12 AM »
I dont see why players cant play twice in 4 or 5 days, they did it over Xmas okay so i dont see why clubs field weakened teams, if it was a premier league game saturday and tuesday / wednesday, there would be no weakening!

Managers in the premier league sacrifice the FA cup for the premier league, even the championship teams do it now as they are desperate to get into the premier league!

As a fan i want us to win something and have some excitement, we are as safe as we are going to be in the league at the moment so if we had to play a weakened team in any game i would rather do it in the Chelsea one and have a go in the cup.

I dont know what the answer is long term but the FA cup should be a big thing.

Offline B_H_Baggie

  • Administrator
  • WBA Manager
  • *****
  • Posts: 20413
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2016, 10:05:45 AM »
Its a poor argument from Allardyce. Everyone is in the same boat and it is a squad game, the problem is the money involved makes the Premier League more important than the FA Cup so you can understand to a certain degree when clubs choose to play their reserves. If they gave the winners of the FA Cup a place in the Champions League there wouldn't be any top side make changes and complain then but it is what it is.

As a supporter I absolutely love the FA Cup, there is just something about it that makes it special but clubs only see the riches that come with the Premier League and nothing more.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline seteefeet

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2016, 10:29:58 AM »
Its a poor argument from Allardyce. Everyone is in the same boat and it is a squad game, the problem is the money involved makes the Premier League more important than the FA Cup so you can understand to a certain degree when clubs choose to play their reserves. If they gave the winners of the FA Cup a place in the Champions League there wouldn't be any top side make changes and complain then but it is what it is.

As a supporter I absolutely love the FA Cup, there is just something about it that makes it special but clubs only see the riches that come with the Premier League and nothing more.
The point is though that there is no need whatsoever for the midweek game, so the PL have created an issue that didn't need to be.
The first weekend of the year is one of the most iconic in the minds of most supporters, why couldn't the PL just leave it alone. Unless they deliberately want to devalue the FA Cup.
Just really winds me up, we are all being sucked into the PL machine and it is devaluing our beautiful game. The most iconic cup competition in the WORLD is being turned into a sideshow by the PL's brand building power trip! :'(

Offline seteefeet

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2016, 10:32:27 AM »
dont we play chelski on wed
Not really the point. It's still an unnecessary midweek game, that will affect team selection for Saturday.

Offline B_H_Baggie

  • Administrator
  • WBA Manager
  • *****
  • Posts: 20413
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2016, 10:42:30 AM »
The point is though that there is no need whatsoever for the midweek game, so the PL have created an issue that didn't need to be.
The first weekend of the year is one of the most iconic in the minds of most supporters, why couldn't the PL just leave it alone. Unless they deliberately want to devalue the FA Cup.
Just really winds me up, we are all being sucked into the PL machine and it is devaluing our beautiful game. The most iconic cup competition in the WORLD is being turned into a sideshow by the PL's brand building power trip! :'(

The Premier League and ultimately the clubs couldn't give a toss about the FA Cup as there is very little in it for them, the competition was devalued years ago regardless of having the extra midweek league game most clubs would have made massive changes anyway. It all started when Man United decided to drop out of it for a year to play in the World Club Championship instead.

Quite frankly its a crap excuse if they blame the midweek fixture when they make wholesale changes for the cup game as they should be fit enough to play 3 games in a week especially in the knowledge that football league clubs do it on a regular basis.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 10:44:21 AM by B_H_Baggie »
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline Standaman

  • WBA Coach
  • ******
  • Posts: 6692
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 11:13:49 AM »
We started the season in August and we are playing through to the middle of May with the FA Cup final scheduled for 21st and the Champions League Final 28th. The Euros start 10th of June and finish 10th July and any player reaching the quarter finals will be playing into July. The Premier League starts again on the 6th of August.

In short the top players are being flogged to death and if managers don't rotate they will be sidelined with injury anyway. This is an issue for all the major leagues in Europe but it is particularly acute in England because we have a 20 team top tier and 2 domestic cup competitions. Equally we have a depth of competition that is not replicated anywhere else in Europe.  This is not sustainable either one of the cup competitions will go completely and or the Premier League will drop to 18 teams with two up two down. Neither of which is particularly palatable therefore if we want to keep the status quo  managers have to rotate their squads. 

When I started writing this I was about to broadly agree with the original poster but I then looked at the fixture calendar. It is crazy and yes players can play two games a week but it does take it's toll and ultimately you can't expect great football. I watched the league cup semi-final last night between two teams that were just knackered.

 
Standaman - Born to be a Baggie.

Offline B_H_Baggie

  • Administrator
  • WBA Manager
  • *****
  • Posts: 20413
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2016, 11:22:30 AM »
We have just played 3 Premier League games in a week making very few changes, one of the oldest squads going and didn't look too knackered, it can be done but not on a regular basis.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline seteefeet

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 11:35:12 AM »
We started the season in August and we are playing through to the middle of May with the FA Cup final scheduled for 21st and the Champions League Final 28th. The Euros start 10th of June and finish 10th July and any player reaching the quarter finals will be playing into July. The Premier League starts again on the 6th of August.

In short the top players are being flogged to death and if managers don't rotate they will be sidelined with injury anyway. This is an issue for all the major leagues in Europe but it is particularly acute in England because we have a 20 team top tier and 2 domestic cup competitions. Equally we have a depth of competition that is not replicated anywhere else in Europe.  This is not sustainable either one of the cup competitions will go completely and or the Premier League will drop to 18 teams with two up two down. Neither of which is particularly palatable therefore if we want to keep the status quo  managers have to rotate their squads. 

When I started writing this I was about to broadly agree with the original poster but I then looked at the fixture calendar. It is crazy and yes players can play two games a week but it does take it's toll and ultimately you can't expect great football. I watched the league cup semi-final last night between two teams that were just knackered.
Agree with all of that, but there are other opportunities to put in a midweek game, it didn't have to follow the 3rd round of the FA Cup and I believe this is a deliberate ploy by the PL, to further establish their brand as the most prestigious competition, which I think is incredibly sad and can only be to the detriment of the game and especially clubs like us who have zero chance of ever winning the League.
One of the cups has all but gone already. I honestly believe that Pulis wanted to lose to Norwich to get out of the distraction of the League Cup.
The 3rd option of course is the European Super League.

Offline Albion79

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 1771
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2016, 11:52:44 AM »
The thing is though, it happens maybe 5 weeks a season where clubs like us (ie  non europe) play two games a week, include internationals say another 5. I would hope athletes out of say a 44 week season (thats allowing for 2 x months preseason) could play twice a week in 10 of those 44 weeks.

More than likely, players will be home and relaxed by 7pm saturday night after the Bristol City game, they wont go in Sunday or maybe go in for a massage. They will train monday, they will train tuesday with it probably being a lighter session going over tactics for wednesday, they may do a light session wednesday before making their way to Chelsea.

At this stage of the season they are just ticking over in training and fine tuning, they wont be run to death in training (even with Pulis) and its a sad state of affairs if players cannot do two games a week. If we were in europe then there is some justification for squad rotation, but for us, i dont think there is.

Clubs used to cope fine with it, and despite all the new sports science, ice chambers, etc i think there is still as many injuries today as there was 30 years ago! More maybe! I know football has moved on but i dont think this is about looking after the players, its solely about being on the gravy train.

Offline Albionic

  • Site Donator
  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4926
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 01:12:59 PM »
I see the fixture congestion as an opportunity for clubs like us,

ie, Those in relegation places need the cups like a hole in the head (see Allardyce comments), Chumps league sides have bigger fish to fry, we (the middle clubs) should target the FA cup for revenue and the Fans ,

its a simplistic view admittedly but there you go.
Lovin the championship, just lovin it !

Offline seteefeet

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2016, 02:15:25 PM »
I see the fixture congestion as an opportunity for clubs like us,

ie, Those in relegation places need the cups like a hole in the head (see Allardyce comments), Chumps league sides have bigger fish to fry, we (the middle clubs) should target the FA cup for revenue and the Fans ,

its a simplistic view admittedly but there you go.
I do too, but do you think we will take it seriously?
I must admit Pulis did give me some hope this week when he said we are a club that could challenge for Europe and get to cup finals. Let's hope he puts his money where his mouth is and fields a side to win the tie. Not like Norwich in the last one!

Offline Albionic

  • Site Donator
  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4926
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2016, 04:42:34 PM »
I do too, but do you think we will take it seriously?
I must admit Pulis did give me some hope this week when he said we are a club that could challenge for Europe and get to cup finals. Let's hope he puts his money where his mouth is and fields a side to win the tie. Not like Norwich in the last one!

I hope we do go for it, but Cynical me seems to recall TP talking up the cups before the Naarwich debacle.

Prove me wrong Tone please.
Lovin the championship, just lovin it !

Offline Hong Kong Phooey

  • Site Donator
  • Youth Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 755
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2016, 10:30:13 PM »
Think we will be more concerned about the two "6 pointers" away from home within the space of three days next week rather than the cup game.

Having said that, Premier League teams should have enough strength in depth to see off struggling lower league sides even with a bumper away following behind them.

I would expect to see a number of changes in the starting 11 on Saturday, but I would also expect us to be in that velvet bag for the next round too!
Down but not out...#WeNotMe

Offline VVVAlbion

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3405
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2016, 08:06:59 AM »
Is it not devalued the minute you lower the price of admission? I understand why, football attendance is expensive,  and am not against it but it is kind of saying this is an inferior product.
.COM, allowing everyone the opportunity to have an opinion.

Offline Hull Baggie

  • Global Moderator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2016, 09:01:08 AM »
Is it not devalued the minute you lower the price of admission? I understand why, football attendance is expensive,  and am not against it but it is kind of saying this is an inferior product.

Does the same argument apply to lower prices for some premier league games; like when we drop prices or do 2 for 1 ticket deals?
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline SmethDan

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4302
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2016, 11:06:57 AM »
Is it not devalued the minute you lower the price of admission? I understand why, football attendance is expensive,  and am not against it but it is kind of saying this is an inferior product.

Only in the monetary sense.

If a good player arrives at a club without a transfer fee does he suddenly become inferior to the day before he signed because you only have to pay his wages and signing on fee?

Again no.
It doesn't matter how many resources you have.
If you don't know how to use them, they will never be enough.
Oh, and always remember to defecate on those Vile chaps in claret and spew.

Offline VVVAlbion

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3405
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2016, 04:08:04 PM »
Does the same argument apply to lower prices for some premier league games; like when we drop prices or do 2 for 1 ticket deals?

Have we ever dropped the price for a game against "the big six"? If the argument is that the price is reduced to "reward" our support I would suggest it isn't devaluing the game but we know it is to increase the attendance at a game that people would not be prepared to pay full price to. (Devaluing the opposition, or the cup in this case, surely?)

.COM, allowing everyone the opportunity to have an opinion.

Offline leeiswba

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2882
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2016, 04:37:16 PM »
Have we ever dropped the price for a game against "the big six"? If the argument is that the price is reduced to "reward" our support I would suggest it isn't devaluing the game but we know it is to increase the attendance at a game that people would not be prepared to pay full price to. (Devaluing the opposition, or the cup in this case, surely?)

So its the fans devaluing it not the club then.

Offline VVVAlbion

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3405
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2016, 04:53:18 PM »
So its the fans devaluing it not the club then.
Or, thinking about it, is it that the Premier League is over valued?

Tomorrow will, no doubt, be a reduced strength West Brom team against the team 3rd from bottom in the Championship. People will not play Premier League prices to watch it but we appear to be getting close to a sell out recognising the importance and heritage of the cup. (And let's face it, as fans we still want the team to win it and will all want a ticket to the final  :D)
.COM, allowing everyone the opportunity to have an opinion.

Offline seteefeet

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Devaluing the FA Cup
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2016, 10:02:27 AM »
Glad to see we put out a team to win it and would have had no complaints if we had been beaten, that's the true beauty of the cup after all. Just hope we commit to the replay, especially with a favourable 4th round draw.
Max 10 Prem teams into the 5th round with only us and Arsenal playing lower league opposition at home (if we go through of course) in the 4th, so fantastic opportunity for us to make the latter stages.