West Brom Dot Com

Author Topic: Shamima Begum  (Read 4684 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TheJacko2000

  • WBA Manager
  • *******
  • Posts: 10871
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2019, 10:32:10 PM »
Bangladesh denies Islamic State schoolgirl Shamima Begum has dual nationality.
If this is the case, she is still British in the world's eye and we can't deprive her of her citizenship.  >:(

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-02-20/shamima-begum-shocked-as-itv-news-informs-her-home-office-has-revoked-her-british-citizenship/


They obviously don't want her, but their law says differently, if she was over 21 we couldn't take this action, but she's not. It'll pass judicial review.
Proud to be a Baggie. BOING BOING.

Offline tuamigos

  • WBA Manager
  • *******
  • Posts: 11397
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2019, 10:13:43 AM »
Damn right too. Not the child's fault.

No PLEASE!
So we get the kid over here and his mother is somewhere else.
He be looked after by jer relatives
Little Jarrah (remember from where his name derives) goes to school first day:

Mrs Cohen, his teacher says good morning Jarah. That's an interesting name how did that name come about?
 :-X :-X
Right Jarah is mommy picking you up from the gate?   :-X :-X
Where's daddy?  :-X :-X

The point I'm trying to make is the kid will have his head filled with all sorts of rubbish he'll be walking round with sticks of dynamite in his sandwich box before he leaves school.
He'll be told his father was a freedom fighter against the infidels, his mother was stripped of her citizenship by the country in which she was born.
What sort of future will that kid have and what is the potential risk?
The best place for him is with his mother and not here
My old man always said 'You can't educate pork!'

Offline timdon

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 1951
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2019, 10:44:08 AM »
Honestly, I fail to see how any rational discussion about this subject can take place without it becoming "political". Terrorism, war, denying or offering people British citizenship, it's all tied up with politics.

Offline BB74

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4119
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2019, 10:48:35 AM »
The child is Syrian. End of.

Offline OldburyWBA

  • Administrator
  • WBA Chairman
  • *****
  • Posts: 39943
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2019, 11:30:24 AM »
Honestly, I fail to see how any rational discussion about this subject can take place without it becoming "political". Terrorism, war, denying or offering people British citizenship, it's all tied up with politics.

So far its been the sort of discussion we welcomed when we started the politics section. Unfortunately after a while they started turning personal, nasty, vindictive the lot hence why we stopped it plus there were members who were coming on purely for the politics section and no interest it seemed in the club related sections.

Maybe this one can be used as a testing ground for others.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline BoingFlyer

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 1515
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2019, 12:35:34 PM »
When people bang on about human rights they need to look back at why making some one statless is wrong. It was bought in to stop the mass genocide of jews, not to protect some terrorist wanna be who wants to continue mouthing off.
Make Mercia Great Again. #MMGA

Offline timdon

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 1951
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2019, 12:44:24 PM »
So far its been the sort of discussion we welcomed when we started the politics section. Unfortunately after a while they started turning personal, nasty, vindictive the lot hence why we stopped it plus there were members who were coming on purely for the politics section and no interest it seemed in the club related sections.

Maybe this one can be used as a testing ground for others.
Fair enough, I understand. It hasn't become personal so far because pretty much everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet. But as soon as someone posts an alternative view with a different perspective, it won't be long before it does again. For example, it could be argued that it is somewhat hypocritical for us as a nation to take the moral high ground against IS atrocities when we killed, or supported our "allies" killing, over half a million children in Iraq on a false pretext. Or it could be argued, as it was in the Adam Johnston trial thread, that at aged 15 you aren't legally considered old enough to make rational decisions. All I'm saying is, in my opinion, that as soon as someone goes against the grain, some people will get angry and the thread will become personal again. Of course, I totally respect your decision to let it run as a testing ground and hope I'm wrong in my analysis. Love and peace.

Offline timdon

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 1951
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #82 on: February 21, 2019, 01:05:23 PM »
The way our media works is so weird.

Theres no way shes the only British person who ran off and joined isis but she gets some interview with the times and now EVERYONE knows who she is and is talking about her. My social media is packed full of memes/jokes about her.

In an ideal world all the British citizen come Isis fighters get tried/sentanced in Syria. But being as they have a lot on their plate right now, I dont think its too unreasonable for them to come back to the uk to be given life sentences here?
Do you think it is too unreasonable to determine the sentence before the trial?

Offline Black Country Pride

  • Reserve Baggie
  • ****
  • Posts: 1420
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #83 on: February 21, 2019, 01:43:10 PM »
No PLEASE!
So we get the kid over here and his mother is somewhere else.
He be looked after by jer relatives
Little Jarrah (remember from where his name derives) goes to school first day:

Mrs Cohen, his teacher says good morning Jarah. That's an interesting name how did that name come about?
 :-X :-X
Right Jarah is mommy picking you up from the gate?   :-X :-X
Where's daddy?  :-X :-X

The point I'm trying to make is the kid will have his head filled with all sorts of rubbish he'll be walking round with sticks of dynamite in his sandwich box before he leaves school.
He'll be told his father was a freedom fighter against the infidels, his mother was stripped of her citizenship by the country in which she was born.
What sort of future will that kid have and what is the potential risk?
The best place for him is with his mother and not here

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you there. It's one thing to contemplate stripping the mother of her citizenship but the child is completely innocent. Barring someone from the citizenship they are entitled too when they have done nothing wrong sets an abysmal precedent and makes a mockery of everything this country purports to stand for. British citizenship is precious - let's not wipe our arses on it.

Offline Atomic

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2019, 01:46:42 PM »
I'd have to respectfully disagree with you there. It's one thing to contemplate stripping the mother of her citizenship but the child is completely innocent. Barring someone from the citizenship they are entitled too when they have done nothing wrong sets an abysmal precedent and makes a mockery of everything this country purports to stand for. British citizenship is precious - let's not wipe our arses on it.


Where was the child born? It is NOT British. End of.

Offline Droitwich Baggie

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5656
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #85 on: February 21, 2019, 01:50:50 PM »
Unfortunately this will become political.
Mr. Corbyn wants her to recieve "some support" from UK authorities.
The Labour leader branded the government's decision a "very extreme manoeuvre" as he called for Ms Begum to "face a lot of questions" on British soil over her support of so-called Islamic State in Syria.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-02-21/jeremy-corbyn-tells-itv-news-the-home-office-decision-to-strip-shamima-begum-of-uk-citizenship-is-very-extreme-move/

Perhaps this should be the time to lock this thread.

Offline TheJacko2000

  • WBA Manager
  • *******
  • Posts: 10871
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #86 on: February 21, 2019, 01:51:09 PM »
The child is Syrian. End of.


You haven't really grasped Syrian Nationality rules have you? Derived from parentage (of father) not location of birth. Similarly in the UK there is no birthright to nationality, hasn't been since 1983.
Proud to be a Baggie. BOING BOING.

Offline Atomic

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #87 on: February 21, 2019, 01:53:40 PM »

You haven't really grasped Syrian Nationality rules have you? Derived from parentage (of father) not location of birth. Similarly in the UK there is no birthright to nationality, hasn't been since 1983.


If you're born in Syria you're Syrian. That is fact. The rest is political, manufactured bull s h i t .

Born in Syria, you're Syrian that is bottom line, absolute non political fact.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 01:55:58 PM by Atomic »

Offline Hunnington Baggie

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3109
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #88 on: February 21, 2019, 01:56:34 PM »

You haven't really grasped Syrian Nationality rules have you? Derived from parentage (of father) not location of birth. Similarly in the UK there is no birthright to nationality, hasn't been since 1983.
so the child is Dutch then?

Offline TheJacko2000

  • WBA Manager
  • *******
  • Posts: 10871
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #89 on: February 21, 2019, 02:01:08 PM »
so the child is Dutch then?


The child is definitely a British and Dutch dual national.
Proud to be a Baggie. BOING BOING.

Offline Norfolk Baggie

  • Youth Baggie
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #90 on: February 21, 2019, 02:01:31 PM »
So just to be clear, parentage also influences nationality under UK law, and other most others.  If for example you were born overseas whilst mom or dad were working abroad, you will still be British.

Having considered this issue carefully, it would not be responsible for us to ask a country such as Bangladesh to deal with this girl.  We should allow (at her family's cost and arrangement), her return to the UK where we deal with her under UK law.  I do not want to hear that in ten years time she has pitched up Dhaka or Mombasa carrying out an atrocious attack on innocent people there.

Offline Droitwich Baggie

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5656
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #91 on: February 21, 2019, 02:03:36 PM »
Although I was born and bred in Smethwick, a close hospital would have been City Road Hospital in Birmingham.
If for some reason my mother was taken to there to give birth, would that have made me a "Brummie"?

Offline Atomic

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2867
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #92 on: February 21, 2019, 02:05:51 PM »

The child is definitely a British and Dutch dual national.


No it isn't. Laws are man made and I don't give a stuff what the laws say. The child was born in Syria it is Syrian. It doesn't matter what argument you come up with or what "laws" you quote that kid was born in Syria therefore it is Syrian. That is bottom line fact. Anything else is manufactured bulls s h i t, however you spin it.

Offline Hunnington Baggie

  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 3109
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2019, 02:08:18 PM »

The child is definitely a British and Dutch dual national.
if the mother’s citizenship is rescinded, would that not effect the child? It only gains the citizenship through the mother and, as you say, the child has no birthright to that nationality.

Wouldn’t that make the claim tenuous at best? I genuinely don’t know

Offline Droitwich Baggie

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5656
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2019, 02:08:53 PM »
I am still waiting to read the old chestnut reply....
If I was born in China, would that make me a Chinaman?

Offline OldburyWBA

  • Administrator
  • WBA Chairman
  • *****
  • Posts: 39943
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2019, 02:12:58 PM »
Fair enough, I understand. It hasn't become personal so far because pretty much everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet. But as soon as someone posts an alternative view with a different perspective, it won't be long before it does again. For example, it could be argued that it is somewhat hypocritical for us as a nation to take the moral high ground against IS atrocities when we killed, or supported our "allies" killing, over half a million children in Iraq on a false pretext. Or it could be argued, as it was in the Adam Johnston trial thread, that at aged 15 you aren't legally considered old enough to make rational decisions. All I'm saying is, in my opinion, that as soon as someone goes against the grain, some people will get angry and the thread will become personal again. Of course, I totally respect your decision to let it run as a testing ground and hope I'm wrong in my analysis. Love and peace.

Thats the key not only to the future of this topic but also to the future of anything even thinly veiled political on here, turns personal then it and any future ones will be gone as soon as the first post appears. People act like mature adults then it stays and gives us a chance to allow future topics, however if as I said above it goes the other way and starts to become like kids in the playground then bye bye to it all including this actual section of the forum which will be removed.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline Hull Baggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 4957
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2019, 02:15:36 PM »

No it isn't. Laws are man made and I don't give a stuff what the laws say. The child was born in Syria it is Syrian. It doesn't matter what argument you come up with or what "laws" you quote that kid was born in Syria therefore it is Syrian. That is bottom line fact. Anything else is manufactured bulls s h i t, however you spin it.

Countries and nationality are just are manufactured bull though too aren't they?  Borders are completely man made.
B_H_Baggie : Dexy : Dudleylad : kris_boing : OldburyWBA
Hull Baggie : LiamTheBaggie : MarkW : Political Cake : tommcneill : WBArgo

Offline TheJacko2000

  • WBA Manager
  • *******
  • Posts: 10871
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #97 on: February 21, 2019, 02:19:19 PM »
if the mother’s citizenship is rescinded, would that not effect the child? It only gains the citizenship through the mother and, as you say, the child has no birthright to that nationality.

Wouldn’t that make the claim tenuous at best? I genuinely don’t know


No because it has been rescinded after the child was born. Nothing tenuous about it.



No it isn't. Laws are man made and I don't give a stuff what the laws say. The child was born in Syria it is Syrian. It doesn't matter what argument you come up with or what "laws" you quote that kid was born in Syria therefore it is Syrian. That is bottom line fact. Anything else is manufactured bulls s h i t, however you spin it.


There is no birthright in Syria. Clearly not a fact. Also the simple fact of being born in the UK doesn't in and of itself make you British.


America still uses birthright for nationality purposes.


I am still waiting to read the old chestnut reply....
If I was born in China, would that make me a Chinaman?


China is slightly more complex due to Hong Kong and Macau,  but basically no not unless one of your parents was Chinese.
Proud to be a Baggie. BOING BOING.

Offline Droitwich Baggie

  • Site Donator
  • WBA Coach
  • *****
  • Posts: 5656
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #98 on: February 21, 2019, 02:23:17 PM »

No because it has been rescinded after the child was born. Nothing tenuous about it.



There is no birthright in Syria. Clearly not a fact. Also the simple fact of being born in the UK doesn't in and of itself make you British.


America still uses birthright for nationality purposes.



China is slightly more complex due to Hong Kong and Macau,  but basically no not unless one of your parents was Chinese.
Do you mean to say...they may have had a "bit on the side"?
I'll get me coot. :P

Offline AlbionFan

  • Site Donator
  • Senior Baggie
  • *****
  • Posts: 2571
Re: Shamima Begum
« Reply #99 on: February 21, 2019, 02:31:40 PM »
I honestly don’t know the answer to this and these are genuine questions.

Lets say a British couple working, not resident or nationalised Australian, had a child whilst in Australia, do the parents have a choice on the child’s nationality i.e. British or Australian or even dual nationality?

Whatever their choice of nationality for the child, would the British couple be required to go to that Embassy to register the birth and ask to be issued with a passport for the child?

In the case of choosing British Nationality, would the British Embassy either issue a passport for the child or include the child on one of the parents passports? Could the British Embassy refuse to do either as the child was born in Australia?

Given international law on citizenship, would the Australian Government then be duty bound to issue a passport to ensure the child isn’t stateless?
respect and humility for everyone, absolutely everyone, who we come into contact with”

Tolerance, Understanding, Acceptance, Patience