Author Topic: Are we skint?  (Read 5537 times)

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BB74

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Are we skint?
« on: May 04, 2019, 08:39:11 AM »
Just a few things I have picked up recently. I’m not ITK it is just a general assessment.

* Overdraft for the first time in 10 years
* Early bird season ticket, effectively collecting the cash two months earlier
* New home kits released with one game plus play offs left, effectively collecting the cash three months early
* Low salary appointments of Head Coach in Big Dave and Jimmy
shan

We only get the benefit of an overdraft once and you only get the benefit of early birds and early kits income early once. It’s the same as having a cash advance from your employer.

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2019, 08:44:20 AM »
Personally, I think it’s more of a prudent and creative approach, reacting to a reducing level of budget, with the objective to keep income and expenditure in sync as much as possible.

Aka, the Jeremy Peace financial model
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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2019, 08:48:31 AM »
We aren't skint, but the wages, bonuses, etc that we are committed to have left us with cash flow problems. This should alleviate if the remaining players on big money leave, but it does mean we aren't going to be as cash rich as we should be if we stay down.

All of the work Peace did to make us profitable and keep a 'rainy day' fund went out the window when we started paying £100k a week to players.

baggiejohn

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2019, 09:06:40 AM »


All of the work Peace did to make us profitable and keep a 'rainy day' fund went out the window when we started paying £100k a week to players.

Don't agree with this.

We had ambitions to be a top half Premier League team, to do that, we had to pay the going rate for the quality of player we needed.

A £7.5 million loss would have been nothing in comparison to the revenue we would have brought in this season as a Premier League team.

I'm not sure who was responsible, but the players we bought to achieve our top half ambitions just didn't perform.

IMO, the decision to pay high wages was right & worth the risk, it was the footballing side of the club which failed.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

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mulliganstired

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2019, 09:49:48 AM »
didn't we borrow against next years parachute money to fund the January loans

leeiswba

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2019, 10:03:34 AM »
We aren’t going to have actual finiancial problems with the people we have in charge, but we might struggle to compete even in the championship in the next couple of years if we don’t go up.

In this league you are looking at a turnover of about £25m - £30 I believe without parachute payments. and as our owners will not be putting any money in at all that’s all we have to play with for everything and to put that into perspective blues have a wage bill of £35m and ours now is about £38m.

Most championship clubs are financed by owners putting money in to help chase ‘the dream’ but that won’t be us so I think if we don’t go up this season or next will be struggle.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 10:11:46 AM by leeiswba »

Standaman

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2019, 10:09:14 AM »
The last season in the Premier League was a financial disaster. We lost money and we ran through our cash reserves hence the requirement for an overdraft to manage our cashflow. For the first time in over a decade we are financially stretched. We are not skint in a Bolton sense but we have a constant battle to make ends meet in an environment where our income is declining. If we do not get promoted this will be very evident during the summer.

A well run football club should never lose money in the Premier League regardless of where it finishes. If you are losing money you are making bad recruitment and retention decisions and I think it is fair to say we made plenty of those.

Spending money you don't have to attain success on the pitch is almost never worth the downside risk. Particularly when there is virtually no additional revenue to be gained from that success. I was tempted to say that finishing  17th would have cleared up the loss but that f course assumes that no player/management bonuses would have been triggered by that which of course would not have been the case.
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baggiejohn

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2019, 11:44:54 AM »
didn't we borrow against next years parachute money to fund the January loans

We don't know what we used a security for the overdraft, or what the value of the overdraft was.
As far as I can see, we made a profit on player trading in August 2018, so we could have used that as security.
I'm not sure when a club receives the first tranche of parachute payments, I think I read somewhere that they are not received until the end of the season.
I believe that Jenkins has no reason to not tell the truth when he says we are solvent.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

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The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

leeiswba

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2019, 11:45:56 AM »
We don't know what we used a security for the overdraft, or what the value of the overdraft was.
As far as I can see, we made a profit on player trading in August 2018, so we could have used that as security.
I'm not sure when a club receives the first tranche of parachute payments, I think I read somewhere that they are not received until the end of the season.
I believe that Jenkins has no reason to not tell the truth when he says we are solvent.

It was reported in the news by Matt Wilson it was against next season parachute payments

baggiejohn

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2019, 11:57:11 AM »
It was reported in the news by Matt Wilson it was against next season parachute payments


This is what he wrote at the end of the article

Quote
It’s believed the loan is a significant one, but manageable, and will be paid back later this year.

The club is currently due to go overdrawn in February, even if they do not sign any more players this month.

But Jenkins has taken out this loan in order to give Darren Moore an opportunity to strengthen his squad this month.

Finances at football clubs usually reach a low point in April because the largest injection of cash normally takes place in June, thanks to a combination of season ticket sales and television money

If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
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leeiswba

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2019, 12:03:48 PM »
In the article I have just looked at he has written;

‘Chief executive Mark Jenkins has borrowed against next season’s parachute payment from the Premier League, and has guaranteed the club will repay the loan once they receive that money.’

BB74

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2019, 01:37:22 PM »
Bringing forward the parachute payment will leave us short come the start of the season.

RedHead_Baggie

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2019, 01:51:50 PM »
We will be getting about 30 million from outgoing sales.

Rondon, Rodriguez, Dawson, Phillips, Hegazi etc and hopefully not renewing the contracts of Barry and Morrison

leeiswba

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2019, 02:20:15 PM »
We will be getting about 30 million from outgoing sales.

Rondon, Rodriguez, Dawson, Phillips, Hegazi etc and hopefully not renewing the contracts of Barry and Morrison

If we don’t go up then this year then next season is huge as we won’t have that again.

Unfortunately I don’t trust the club to replace these players either........ let’s hope come the end of the month we can forget it and close this thread!!

gazberg

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2019, 02:33:11 PM »
If we don't go pu this year then we will get the rebuilding we don't want. Picking up the prize players from Leagues 1+2 if we can afford them.

zippyandbungle

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2019, 04:30:25 PM »
Why do people keep bringing this up?
If you ain't happy buy the club, if you can't then how do you think the question or moaning about it will change anything?

Genuine question
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glosterbaggie

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2019, 08:09:24 PM »
We will be getting about 30 million from outgoing sales.

Rondon, Rodriguez, Dawson, Phillips, Hegazi etc and hopefully not renewing the contracts of Barry and Morrison
Morrison got an extra year? So stuck with him.
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baggiejohn

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2019, 08:37:19 PM »
In the article I have just looked at he has written;

‘Chief executive Mark Jenkins has borrowed against next season’s parachute payment from the Premier League, and has guaranteed the club will repay the loan once they receive that money.’

This is what Mark Jenkins said in March 2018

Quote
Mark has been speaking as Albion filed the Club’s annual accounts up to June 2017, admitting a year of record-breaking figures has been followed by investments which have left him needing to organise the Club’s first overdraft for more than 10 years.

CEO Mark Jenkins discusses his plans following release of latest Club accounts
New Premier League deal and 10th place performance sees record figures for 2016-17
Turnover increased by £39.6m (40.3%) to £137.9m with profits before tax jumping to £39.7m from £1.0m;
Profit includes the sale of Saido Berahino
Player assets increased to £38.3m from £24.9m at 2016
Cash at bank rose to £39.6m at 30 June 2017, from £15.9m
But Jenkins warns of need for “overdraft facility” following spending of the last year
Baggies fans should not be alarmed, he says, as the overdraft is not sizeable in Premier League terms but it is an indication of how the Club has been blown off course in the last 12 months and helps underscore his view that a strong business performance must be the foundation stone to Albion’s recovery on the pitch.

“The annual accounts shows what really has happened over the last 24 months if you look in detail,” Mark told WBA TV.

“The accounts cover the 2016-17 season which saw us placed 10th in what we must consider a successful season despite a slightly disappointing finish.  It was the first year of the new TV deal and normally in that situation the Club performs well financially. We had record turnover, a profit of just under £40m which included the sale of Saido Berahino …. but still, £40m in the bank which is a substantial resource.

“But if we look further, the auditors have insisted that I do make note that we are going to have to have a small overdraft in the near future which just goes to emphasise the activities of the year which has followed. I want to emphasise that it is a small overdraft but this Club has not had an overdraft for over 10 years now which makes it new territory for West Bromwich Albion in this era.“Clearly, it has not been as successful a season. There is going to be a significant loss in next year’s accounts, not to the level of profit recorded in these accounts of course, but it demonstrates how the board have used the resources - and a little bit more besides - investing in the squad and the infrastructure of the stadium. We have wages, transfer fees and loan fees running at record levels and yet we find ourselves in this position.

It's an overdraft, not a loan.

A quick look at the accounts will show that there are a number of revenue streams that the club can use to make good the overdraft, but the parachute payment makes good provocative media talk.
Also the overdraft was identified in March 2018, & therefore almost certainly included for in this seasons's budgets


Finally, this is an article from the Premier League (dated 17 May 2018) showing the payments made to clubs for the 2017/18 season, which clearly shows that payments are made in May, at the end of the season, & therefore included in current years accounts & not next years.
https://www.premierleague.com/news/691073

It makes sense to pay off the overdraft as early as possible, & in my opinion, that's the reason for the early bird season ticket initiative.

Other than that, it's a non story.

If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

johnny Cash

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2019, 10:18:10 AM »
Why do people keep bringing this up?
If you ain't happy buy the club, if you can't then how do you think the question or moaning about it will change anything?

Genuine question

People on the forum care about the club and the clubs finances will have a huge affect on what can be done and achieved over the next few years. So it’s to be expected people will want to discuss our position.

Why do you think ‘If you ain’t happy buy the club’  is in anyway a worthwhile statement?   No the discussions don’t change anything, but then neither does the vast majority of anything discussed on here.

Mr Cynical

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2019, 11:51:00 AM »
We will be getting about 30 million from outgoing sales.

Rondon, Rodriguez, Dawson, Phillips, Hegazi etc and hopefully not renewing the contracts of Barry and Morrison

Interesting.  7 players listed above.  6 loan players, 2 on short term contracts.  That's 15 new players next season.  A lot of transfer fees and signing on fees!

Mr Cynical

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2019, 11:54:49 AM »
IIRC correctly (and I may not be) there is also a mystery pot of £20m (?) that Peace moved from the main part of the 'group' to a separate company (in the group) shortly before Lai took over.  In the most recent accounts it was still sitting there.  I believe it was set aside just incase something happened with the 12% of shareholding that Lai doesn't own.

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2019, 11:56:52 AM »
Don't agree with this.

We had ambitions to be a top half Premier League team, to do that, we had to pay the going rate for the quality of player we needed.

A £7.5 million loss would have been nothing in comparison to the revenue we would have brought in this season as a Premier League team.

I'm not sure who was responsible, but the players we bought to achieve our top half ambitions just didn't perform.

IMO, the decision to pay high wages was right & worth the risk, it was the footballing side of the club which failed.

I agree

Paying £100k a week is fine - depending on the players you buy.

Our big mistake is that we spent £100k on a semi pro footballer who was far more interested in his instagram views & a long term sick note who seemed more occupied with his Sky Bet account.

Had that some of money been invested more wisely then we may have had a chance.

It just highlights the lack of planning and vision that is so absent from this football club
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Mr Cynical

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2019, 11:58:56 AM »
Don't agree with this.

We had ambitions to be a top half Premier League team, to do that, we had to pay the going rate for the quality of player we needed.

A £7.5 million loss would have been nothing in comparison to the revenue we would have brought in this season as a Premier League team.

I'm not sure who was responsible, but the players we bought to achieve our top half ambitions just didn't perform.

IMO, the decision to pay high wages was right & worth the risk, it was the footballing side of the club which failed.

I agree, based on the previous season's perfirmance and revenue, we'd have made a profit of £6.5m, even with the wage expenditure.  The issue was that the club had the wrong people making decsions on managers and players.  (And replaced them with worse ones IMO.)

zippyandbungle

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2019, 12:54:02 PM »
People on the forum care about the club and the clubs finances will have a huge affect on what can be done and achieved over the next few years. So it’s to be expected people will want to discuss our position.

Why do you think ‘If you ain’t happy buy the club’  is in anyway a worthwhile statement?   No the discussions don’t change anything, but then neither does the vast majority of anything discussed on here.
I get that people care, it's just that there are so many that have a view on what the owners or investors are/aren't/should be doing with the money it gets frustration repetitive....
I'm all for opinions, should we have thinner stripes, what formation etc ...just that expecting someone to use 200-300m of their money to do what "Daz from Tipton " wants is a bit ...rich ?
If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

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Re: Are we skint?
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2019, 02:06:19 PM »
In answer to the original question, YES we are.

We have an owner who, even if he wanted to invest in the club, is not being allowed to by the Chinese government who have put a stop to vanity projects like football clubs, where they could see vast sums of money shipped around the globe with little or no benefit to the Chinese National. To them, that's simply money being wasted.

I've no doubt Lai would like to sell but at the moment the club is probably worth a quarter of what he paid for it, so he's really left between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

None of which is good news as far as the club and it supporters are concerned. Sadly, from what I can see is it's back to the days of Trev the Shed being in charge.

We have a highly promising crop of youngsters coming through and with the right man at the helm we could get back in the Premier League in two or three seasons with only modest investment, but the realist in me sees a great probability of some of these promising youngsters being sold off at well below their potential worth simply to balance the books.