WestBrom.com
West Bromwich Albion FC Forums => West Bromwich Albion FC => Topic started by: HampshireBaggie on January 19, 2012, 11:10:07 AM
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http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/12/01/19/SOCCER_West_Brom.html&TEAMHD=soccer&BID=165
West Brom made a profit of £9million for the financial year ending June 30, 2011, the club have confirmed.
The Baggies have also been able to reduce their net debt from £10million to just £2million.
The financial success followed a successful first season back in the Barclays Premier League.
West Brom avoided instant relegation back to the Championship for only the second time after head coach Roy Hodgson revived their fortunes when replacing Roberto Di Matteo in February.
Albion's continued prudence in transfer outlays was reflected in a profit in that department of £3million.
They splashed out £5.2million on new signings but received £8.2million back from players who were off-loaded.
But the latest figures do not take into account that, since the end of the financial year, the commitment in terms of fulfilling players' contracts has risen from £37million to £48million.
Albion will hold their annual general meeting at the club's new London office on February 9.
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Seriously why wouldn't somebody want to buy us we are very very secure unlike most other teams
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Mixed news really. It is horrible reading seeing that we made £3m PROFIT on transfers, i dont expect any team who does that in the greed league to survive doing that for long.
Increase of £11m per year in wages - you can see why we were prudent. So we went from £10m in debt to £2m but this doesn't include an extra £11m in wages. Our debt is increasing, year on year.
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Seriously why wouldn't somebody want to buy us we are very very secure unlike most other teams
I dont understand either, maybe we are just not fashionable, the area etc.
Everton fans are asking the same thing but i think the stadium is what is stopping them from being bought.
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Seriously why wouldn't somebody want to buy us we are very very secure unlike most other teams
That is the reason. Because we are secure, our asking price will be higher than other financially challenged clubs.
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Good. Sounds postive and shows investment is being made in the playing staff in terms of wages rather than transfer which is what the club set out to do.
Does look like however we are getting to the peak of our spending power. This is the best squad we can afford.
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Good. Sounds postive and shows investment is being made in the playing staff in terms of wages rather than transfer which is what the club set out to do.
Does look like however we are getting to the peak of our spending power. This is the best squad we can afford.
This, without outside investment, we cannot afford to spend any more on wages, if we want to spend more on transfers, then we need to spend less on wages. the see-saw is balanced and its as good as its going to take.
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Mixed news really. It is horrible reading seeing that we made £3m PROFIT on transfers, i dont expect any team who does that in the greed league to survive doing that for long.
Increase of £11m per year in wages - you can see why we were prudent. So we went from £10m in debt to £2m but this doesn't include an extra £11m in wages. Our debt is increasing, year on year.
The profit on transfers is eaten up by the wage bill though.
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Good news I think. Dan Ashworth said before last season that we would be looking to spend less on transfer fees but more on wages. Looks sound.
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Also with that profit being made its clear why Pearce wants players scouted for 6 months before signing.
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/transfer-news/West-Brom-Chairman-Jeremy-Peace-wants-potential-signings-scouted-for-six-months-each-article855152.html
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The only criticism I would have of the board is why hold the AGM in London?
Surely most albion shareholders (I'm not one) are midlands based?
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Maybe I am old fashioned, but I thought that the reason we are called West Bromwich Albion Football Club, is that it is the first priority of the Chairman is to maximise the success of the team on the football pitch.
We are not called West Bromwich Albion Finance Plc, who's aim and objective is the financial success of the Chairman.
The two, as any sensible person will tell you are different, so can I ask the supporters of the football club, why we are being run as a financial organization?
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The only criticism I would have of the board is why hold the AGM in London?
Surely most albion shareholders (I'm not one) are midlands based?
The club are clearly alienating small shareholders by trying fancy trickwork with the super share scheme. You have also answered you own question as to why the AGM is based in London, it's so the smaller shareholders are hit harder in the pocket by getting to London when they are clearly not wanted there.
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Maybe I am old fashioned, but I thought that the reason we are called West Bromwich Albion Football Club, is that it is the first priority of the Chairman is to maximise the success of the team on the football pitch.
We are not called West Bromwich Albion Finance Plc, who's aim and objective is the financial success of the Chairman.
The two, as any sensible person will tell you are different, so can I ask the supporters of the football club, why we are being run as a financial organization?
Whether you like it or not West Bromwich Albion IS a business with hundreds of employees, of course it has to be financially stable, first priority will always be money before football because without it there is no club....Darlington will vouch for that!
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An interesting insight. As others have stated this profit doesn't take into account the jump in our wage bill. I'd be interested to see how much similar sized clubs are spending on wages, what with Chelsea spending £174million last year (http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16008504)
Nice to see our debt be reduced to essentially nothing. If we can survive this season things are looking very good for us. The amount that can be invested in the team will increase as the old debt is now gone.
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Don't forget that £11m difference in wages is just the commitment to fulfill player contracts. ie. if all the team saw their contracts through to the end that's the total extra wages we'd have to pay. That's not our annual wage bill going up by £11m.
I don't think.
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Maybe I am old fashioned, but I thought that the reason we are called West Bromwich Albion Football Club, is that it is the first priority of the Chairman is to maximise the success of the team on the football pitch.
We are not called West Bromwich Albion Finance Plc, who's aim and objective is the financial success of the Chairman.
The two, as any sensible person will tell you are different, so can I ask the supporters of the football club, why we are being run as a financial organization?
I could have sworn we managed our highest finishing position in the football league in 3 (4?) decades last season. :-X
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Is it negative to repeat what's been said before??... with 3 clubs relegated every year, in any decade almost every prem club can expect to be relegated at least once - it's coming back up again like Newcastle did and we've done several times, it's about not doing a Leeds/Sheff Utd/Portsmouth etc and being out for a decade or more (like we did in the 90s!).
Our flexi contracts, ground ownership and general good business are what other clubs our size should be looking at, not fly by night sugar daddies.
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Why is everytime someone has something negative to say or questions something or even dare I say asks about trying to push a little more we get the Southampton, Leeds, Bradford, Portsmouth clubs mentioned.
Those clubs suffered from trying to go too far too quickly and in some cases from getting involved with people who should not be involved in football. Big difference.
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Poor timing announcing this during a transfer window. This will put player's demands and fees up.
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Poor timing announcing this during a transfer window. This will put player's demands and fees up.
Even more than the usually ridiculously January inflated fees? You will be saying someone will bid £35 million for Andy Carroll next ;D
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Jeremy Peace is clearly a very sensible and astute person who looks after his investments very carefully and why shouldnt he. Im very happy with him in charge of our club, a safe pair of hands, we can just enjoy following WBA in the knowledge that we will be competitive on the pitch and secure off it. If we can stick around in this division for a few more seasons we should progress some more.
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Jeremy Peace is clearly a very sensible and astute person who looks after his investments very carefully and why shouldnt he. Im very happy with him in charge of our club, a safe pair of hands, we can just enjoy following WBA in the knowledge that we will be competitive on the pitch and secure off it. If we can stick around in this division for a few more seasons we should progress some more.
As a couple have already pointed out, I don't think we will progress much further. We are at the top of a glass ceiling now whilst JP is in charge. We need external investment to break through that ceiling like Wonkas glass elevator does ;D
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Why is everytime someone has something negative to say or questions something or even dare I say asks about trying to push a little more we get the Southampton, Leeds, Bradford, Portsmouth clubs mentioned.
Those clubs suffered from trying to go too far too quickly and in some cases from getting involved with people who should not be involved in football. Big difference.
Initially i thought that we could at least take a little bit of a risk and push on for a more expensive player(s) but seeing these accounts makes me realise that we really are at our ceiling. We cant go any higher without investment.
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We wasted a million by giving Bednar a new deal instead of getting rid. No doubt that deal included a payrise on top of the £15k a week he was getting and will include loyalty bonuses. All in the hope someone came in to buy him which was never going to happen.
No-one is saying we have to break the bank. We've reduced the debt by £8m, did that have to be done in such a short period ? could that have been done over a couple of years ?
I am not a fan of Peace by any means but also not a Peace-basher. I know where we are as a club, I know we are not going to go much more than we are now and I know we will never pay the massive wages some players demand and I agree with that way of doing things but at times money we do have is spent in the wrong areas and not on the important thing.
The contract we gave Miller was another that was wrong at the time.
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We wasted a million by giving Bednar a new deal instead of getting rid. No doubt that deal included a payrise on top of the £15k a week he was getting and will include loyalty bonuses. All in the hope someone came in to buy him which was never going to happen.
No-one is saying we have to break the bank. We've reduced the debt by £8m, did that have to be done in such a short period ? could that have been done over a couple of years ?
I am not a fan of Peace by any means but also not a Peace-basher. I know where we are as a club, I know we are not going to go much more than we are now and I know we will never pay the massive wages some players demand and I agree with that way of doing things but at times money we do have is spent in the wrong areas and not on the important thing.
The contract we gave Miller was another that was wrong at the time.
I have highlighted two points which interest me.
Peace claims that we shouldn't gamble with the money of club which I agree with. However, Peace obviously does like a gamble because of the points above. E.g. Signing up Bednar in the hope someone pays a fee for him.
Why can't we gamble by buying that extra one player who may help us gain a few more points or a couple more goals on that goal difference.
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I just noticed that i have mis-read a section of that. The extra £9m was on fulfilling players contracts. Which inevitably wont happen for most, not many fulfil their contracts these days. So that £9m is spread across anything from 1-4 years.
So this is a massive reduction in debt for 1 year.
And therefore highlights that there is money there to spend before we go 'the way of bradford and leeds'. If we could of reduced that debt over say 2 years instead of 1. Thats an extra £4m player per year.
Regarding Bednar, i doubt it was a pay rise, probably just an extra year on the same money. If may have been to stop us from having to pay him a loyalty bonus, which it looks like we are going to have to do anyway.
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Surely, it all depends on how you measure success. You can measure it by how many cups or leagues you win, or can it measured by what we achieve vs by what spend? Supporters expectations have to be realistic, there are only 3 domestic competitions we can win, the league, FA and league cup, we aint never going to win the league, so best we can hope for is the cups. With our size club, supporter base, for us to win a cup, we would have to be very fortunate with the draws, and also to have luck on our side.
On to the league, we finished our highest ever place in the premier league last year, 8 points above the drop, 6 places above relegation. If we would have finished 17th, this would have been deemed a huge success in my eyes also. If we had been 17th, it would have dropped our income by 4.8m ( i think you get 800k per place u finish up the league).
The point i am trying to get, you have to be realistic with what you can expect the club to achieve. For me, i wish to watch exciting football, see passion from the players and 100% effort.
I do not believe that money guarantees success, it helps of course ;) I personally am happy with the way the club is run financially, although i would like to see a bit better football :)
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Some money that is, should of spent it before the taxman
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Why is everytime someone has something negative to say or questions something or even dare I say asks about trying to push a little more we get the Southampton, Leeds, Bradford, Portsmouth clubs mentioned.
Those clubs suffered from trying to go too far too quickly and in some cases from getting involved with people who should not be involved in football. Big difference.
Fair enough, I think that's aimed at me, I'm a seventies survivor and I'm just glad we've spent some time in the top division recently and are solvent, I also hate the way money has ruined the game, so maybe I'm just wishing for the days when a club our size could put together a decent team and challenge for the very top honestly. I want our strategy to succeed over the next ten years, I would love to hear that the next Sky contract is at a greatly reduced figure, I would love the Man C sheiks to pull the plug, I would love Villa to go down, I would love to beat Ferguson... hey, I've gone all Keegan here...
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Peace deserves a degree of credit the way he's run the club pretty much debt free.
We are though hitting a glass ceiling. IMO it's frustrating seeing smaller clubs taken over and spending way more while we are seemingly plodding through treacle.
If we can finish 7th in the league for instance then that's worth about £10-£15 million more in prize money than 17th. It all depends whether you want to take a risk?
Paying wages for Bednar, Fortune, Mattock, Cox, Jara Reyes is madness IMO. If they're on £15K a week that's £75K a week in total or £300K per month.
Look at Newcastle - Cisse signed for £10m that's ambition for you.
How much is JP paying himself is it still £300K per year or has it risen to £500K per year? I'm not totally anti-Peace just stating we'll never be top 10 with this philosophy.
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Peace deserves a degree of credit the way he's run the club pretty much debt free.
We are though hitting a glass ceiling. IMO it's frustrating seeing smaller clubs taken over and spending way more while we are seemingly plodding through treacle.
If we can finish 7th in the league for instance then that's worth about £10-£15 million more in prize money than 17th. It all depends whether you want to take a risk?
Paying wages for Bednar, Fortune, Mattock, Cox, Jara Reyes is madness IMO. If they're on £15K a week that's £75K a week in total or £300K per month.
Look at Newcastle - Cisse signed for £10m that's ambition for you.
How much is JP paying himself is it still £300K per year or has it risen to £500K per year? I'm not totally anti-Peace just stating we'll never be top 10 with this philosophy.
I do agree with some of what you're saying. I certainly feel that we have the funds to perhaps push the boat out a little more than we currently do, without doing a Bradford,Derby, Pompey whatever.
Not so sure that the comparison to Newcastle is fair. I know he is very unpopular, but Ashley is a multi-millionaire many times over, plus they haven't really spent the £35 Million they received for Carroll.
I can't see us splashing out £10 million on a player for a good while, but there are players out there who we could get if the boat was pushed out a little further than it currently is.
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Not so sure that the comparison to Newcastle is fair. I know he is very unpopular, but Ashley is a multi-millionaire many times over, plus they haven't really spent the £35 Million they received for Carroll.
To be honest I think Ashley used the fee from Carroll to make some of his money back after bankrolling them in the Championship. Worth remembering that they have far more income than we do, sponsorship deals are much bigger than ours as well as money from tickets selling more than 40,000 for each home game. I agree with you, it would be great to compare ourselves with a club the size of Newcastle United but it simply isn't a realistic.
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How much is JP paying himself is it still £300K per year or has it risen to £500K per year? I'm not totally anti-Peace just stating we'll never be top 10 with this philosophy.
I'm sure it was over £600k a year or two ago. According to a few people on twitter the highest paid director was picking up something stupid like £950k for the year, if that is true I don't know or even if it includes any bonuses from the promotion but I imagine it will be a real talking point whether you like the bloke or not.
I personally don't think we will ever be a genuine top 10 side without significant outside investment the way football is at the moment but then again I'm not sure how long the game can carry on the way it is with money completely out of control.
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I'm in two minds about this.
I want us to do well, and we need to spend money to do that. We are a football club and as such, if a penny comes in, a penny can be spent should the the philosophy.
Having said that, if we have any debt, its too much. We need to clear that off before we push on.
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I'm in two minds about this.
I want us to do well, and we need to spend money to do that. We are a football club and as such, if a penny comes in, a penny can be spent should the the philosophy.
Having said that, if we have any debt, its too much. We need to clear that off before we push on.
Understand that but sometimes we need to push that little bit more to move the club on - in the past we have been guilty of missing key opportunities as Peace as been totally risk adverse.
I don't want a club to show a big profit, ideally you want it to break-even by utilising every available resource to make the club as good as it possibly can be.
Also remember, a book of annual accounts can show you exactly what it wants to show you are there are numerous accounting standards that allow the books to show what's wanted (write downs for depreciation as chosen by your desired method, various 'valuations' of players and stock, what type of income you classify certain items as, 'miscallaneous' items). All perfectly correct but makes it difficult to get a true position.
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Fair enough, I think that's aimed at me, I'm a seventies survivor and I'm just glad we've spent some time in the top division recently and are solvent, I also hate the way money has ruined the game, so maybe I'm just wishing for the days when a club our size could put together a decent team and challenge for the very top honestly. I want our strategy to succeed over the next ten years, I would love to hear that the next Sky contract is at a greatly reduced figure, I would love the Man C sheiks to pull the plug, I would love Villa to go down, I would love to beat Ferguson... hey, I've gone all Keegan here...
Wasn't aimed at you mate :D
I agree with the post as well, money has ruined the game.
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I'm glad we have JP, yes I wish we could buy more players, but I like the fact we play with a straight bat and do not have investment from fly by night chancers. We spend what we earn, and can afford, about as honest as it gets in todays football insanity.
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Peace deserves a degree of credit the way he's run the club pretty much debt free.
We are though hitting a glass ceiling. IMO it's frustrating seeing smaller clubs taken over and spending way more while we are seemingly plodding through treacle.
If we can finish 7th in the league for instance then that's worth about £10-£15 million more in prize money than 17th. It all depends whether you want to take a risk?
Paying wages for Bednar, Fortune, Mattock, Cox, Jara Reyes is madness IMO. If they're on £15K a week that's £75K a week in total or £300K per month.
OK, two highlighted points here and my take on them.
A ) lets split the difference and call it £12million. So that's 12 lads on £20k a week wages, not allowing for any overheads or bonuses or fees.... So lets be realistic and call that 8 lads allowing for the previously mentioned. Now if we want Mulumbu, Pete quality players thats maybe 3 lads on £40k... and that's assuming we hit 7th and assuming nothing goes wrong.
B) Now the Bednar issue is different, but with the others you can't possibly deny or complain about paying them, afterall they were brought in as gambles, as all signings are and because we can't move them on we obviously have to keep paying. To complain about Mattock for example is unfair, because for each mattock (player taken on as a youth on a low wage to start with) we have a Dorrans or Mulumbu or Dawson. Bednar was a mistake by the board who thought they'd sell him on. Same as Cech, but Bednar realised he was on a better wage here than he could get anywhere else so decided to stick it to the board and stay earning £££ for doign nothing. As a fan i'm annoyed, but i kind of think well done to him for not being used by the board members.
Look at Newcastle - Cisse signed for £10m that's ambition for you.
How much is JP paying himself is it still £300K per year or has it risen to £500K per year? I'm not totally anti-Peace just stating we'll never be top 10 with this philosophy.
C ) It isn't "Ambition" to spend a multi-millionaires money in the pursuit of a dream. It's a risk. A risk Albion cannot afford to get wrong.... This has been mentioned and explained 5000 times on here. We can't afford to play that game. Otherwise we risk doing a Bradford, Swindon, Coventry etc etc
D ) It is Peace's sole/main job and he is runnign a multi-multi million pound organisation. I think £300-500K is fair enouugh
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D ) It is Peace's sole/main job and he is runnign a multi-multi million pound organisation. I think £300-500K is fair enouugh
I think Peace takes a small salary considering the club has a £60-£80 million turnover.
Can you think of another company whose main shareholder takes home such a small percentage of turnover?
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We wasted a million by giving Bednar a new deal instead of getting rid. No doubt that deal included a payrise on top of the £15k a week he was getting and will include loyalty bonuses. All in the hope someone came in to buy him which was never going to happen.
The contract we gave Miller was another that was wrong at the time.
Both these lads were given contracts with an aim of selling them, protecting the asset. Add Cech and several other players to that list as well. It worked in almost all circumstances. Miller was a good bit of business really, as was Cech. The Cech profit probably more or less paid for the Bednar msitake.
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I'm more concerned with the signings we are making, and the football we play. Newcastle are signing hungry, talented, dynamic players. We are signing players with no or very limited upside (like our bid for Ridgewell). Also I don't think Roy is the man to take our youngsters (the promising players that are earning new pro contracts) to the next level. He already choked the passion and dynamisism out of or our team.
The previous summer we were competeing with Newcastle for the likes of Tiote. This summer we were pleased with Long/Graham, McAuley and Jones.
I agree with Peace that we need to stay out of significant debt and the approach to build slowly and carefully. But I don't want to give up our future for the sake of short term solidity either.
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Both these lads were given contracts with an aim of selling them, protecting the asset. Add Cech and several other players to that list as well. It worked in almost all circumstances. Miller was a good bit of business really, as was Cech. The Cech profit probably more or less paid for the Bednar msitake.
Bednar and Miller were both poor business, Bednar especially.
Bednar had been out on two loans spells and done nothing at either club, add to that his 'issue' in the press, no way would any club put a big outlay on him. Since then his performances when he has been on show have been shocking, not sure if you went to Rochdale pre-season but you could have been forgiven for thinking he was someone plucked from the crowd, not someone who has played in the Premier League and represented his country. Since then he has rejected loan moves elsewhere, the bloke should have been shown the door last Summer with a 'thanks for your service and good luck for the future'.
Miller was injured and at the time it was not known how long it would take or if he would recover. It would have been better to wait to see how it had affected him before offering a 4 year deal to a seriously injured player.
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What makes people think that were not spending the most we can, alot of money needs to go around the club in different areas, say we push for an extra couple of players on higher wages and sign ons then it dont work out like valero and we get relegated, then ultimately have a hole in our books and cant spend the money to get us back up again ?.
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This financial report really is a step in the right direction! The value of the club must also take into account liabilities against assets. Obviously the hawthorns is a very good asset but are some of the players? The value of players can vary, we buy them & hopefully their performances increase their transfer value but really this is only a balance sheet excercise! Liabilities on the other hand must be reduced & they are.
It is not good business sense (although football seems to be on another planet) to have overheads i.e wages etc over 50% of the turnover. Albion, I think last year was over 70%? Any reduction by selling players or sending out on loan is a good thing!
A profit of £9million out of a £80million turnover(if this is a accurate figure) is a nice profit in any business as long as this is after tax?
Albion is a business in which we all hope is sustainable for ever! It is a entertainment business & there we have the question, what do we invest to continue to be a sustainable business & be successful? Then we ask'what is being successful'? Staying in premier? Winning trophies? Keeping in business? All 3 of these are important so what would you do to ensure success?
JP at this point seems to be on the right track and I for one feel Albion are in good hands! :) :)
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I think there was an element of "doing the right thing" by Miller who at that point had a career threatening injury and might never have played again. As it is, he has never been the same again, losing his bustling strength and confidence, which is about all he ever had. Looking at it in purely business terms, at least we got a few quid back for him.
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Fair enough, I think that's aimed at me, I'm a seventies survivor and I'm just glad we've spent some time in the top division recently and are solvent, I also hate the way money has ruined the game, so maybe I'm just wishing for the days when a club our size could put together a decent team and challenge for the very top honestly. I want our strategy to succeed over the next ten years, I would love to hear that the next Sky contract is at a greatly reduced figure, I would love the Man C sheiks to pull the plug, I would love Villa to go down, I would love to beat Ferguson... hey, I've gone all Keegan here...
Superb post, things always come good in the end and we are employing a strategy that will be sustainable long term. I take pride in the fact that we are small West Brom who no one cares about and if we can become a force without being money grabbers who need huge investment I would take more pride in that than having an investor bankrolling us.
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I'm more concerned with the signings we are making, and the football we play. Newcastle are signing hungry, talented, dynamic players. We are signing players with no or very limited upside (like our bid for Ridgewell). Also I don't think Roy is the man to take our youngsters (the promising players that are earning new pro contracts) to the next level. He already choked the passion and dynamisism out of or our team.
The previous summer we were competeing with Newcastle for the likes of Tiote. This summer we were pleased with Long/Graham, McAuley and Jones.
I agree with Peace that we need to stay out of significant debt and the approach to build slowly and carefully. But I don't want to give up our future for the sake of short term solidity either.
Long and Jones should hit their peak in 2 years time so certainly not short term signings. We are also signing young players relatively cheaply who will be developed over the next year or two. Scott Alan comes into that category. There seems a pretty sensible balance to me.
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Maybe I am old fashioned, but I thought that the reason we are called West Bromwich Albion Football Club, is that it is the first priority of the Chairman is to maximise the success of the team on the football pitch.
We are not called West Bromwich Albion Finance Plc, who's aim and objective is the financial success of the Chairman.
The two, as any sensible person will tell you are different, so can I ask the supporters of the football club, why we are being run as a financial organization?
And yet we sit here in the greed league in our best position league wise and financially than we have probably ever...
Im just enjoying the good times.
Yes he may make a lot of money out of it...but jees the guy has overseen our success and built us slowly into a Premier League team...few bad results recent granted but overall on our day were a match for some of the best teams in this country.
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Can anyone post a link to the full report and accounts I would love to see the details. From what I have read the financial performance looks solid, but the hike in wages pre dates this summers increases for Odemwingie and Gera's arrival so I would expect the wage bill to take another upswing this year.
The story is one of wages v fees. To get the experienced players we need to play the wages but we do not have the financial clout to do both. Yes I think we could push the boat out a little further but in truth someone could throw £50m at the club and we still would not guarantee us a top 10 finish.
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I'm no accountant or mathematical genius but A debt of 2 million in premier league football these days is relatively peanuts & if its correct that the 11 million increase of wages is for the term of contracts (spread over 2-3 years) than surely we could 'dip' our toes in the "slightly more expensive pool" & try to kick on.
my expectations haven't increased massively this season but shouldn't we always be trying to better ourselves? or else whats the point of just "surviving"
I want my ashes scattered over the Hawthorns but please wait till I'm dead before you do it
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I am a bit confused by some of the comments on here. From what I can see, we have made a profit this year. We have reduced debt by 8 million to relative peanuts in the last financial year and the wages increase is over the course of their deals, which isnt an immediate threat (with the clauses in the players contracts the amount the contracts cost would go down anyway).
It is at first admirable that in a league where so few teams are self sustainable (with the few who are being the champions league clubs), we are are to keep ourselves running in a German type way. Eventually, all clubs will have to do this as the debts that Bolton, Wigan, Blackburn, Fulham and other similar clubs have are just not safe (everyone of them OVER 50 million in debt).
We can though, clearly, still push a little harder. This has been alluded to by independent assessments of clubs finances by journalists. We could with bit of imagination still go for it a bit more, with January being an example.
Id also agree with those wo say the deal to take up the option on Bednar was foolish when it was obvious to us we were not going to get a bidder. It was a waste of nearly 1 million and for a club like us that could have been a good players wages for the year.
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I am a bit confused by some of the comments on here. From what I can see, we have made a profit this year. We have reduced debt by 8 million to relative peanuts in the last financial year and the wages increase is over the course of their deals, which isnt an immediate threat (with the clauses in the players contracts the amount the contracts cost would go down anyway).
It is at first admirable that in a league where so few teams are self sustainable (with the few who are being the champions league clubs), we are are to keep ourselves running in a German type way. Eventually, all clubs will have to do this as the debts that Bolton, Wigan, Blackburn, Fulham and other similar clubs have are just not safe (everyone of them OVER 50 million in debt).
We can though, clearly, still push a little harder. This has been alluded to by independent assessments of clubs finances by journalists. We could with bit of imagination still go for it a bit more, with January being an example.
Id also agree with those wo say the deal to take up the option on Bednar was foolish when it was obvious to us we were not going to get a bidder. It was a waste of nearly 1 million and for a club like us that could have been a good players wages for the year.
Decent assessment of where we are. I agree the Bednar looked strange at the time and now it looks like a really poor decision which has cost the club about £0.75m for no return whatsoever. Although our management of players contracts has generally been astute this is the area where clubs get themselves into trouble with a wage bill that cannot be sustained.
It is rumoured that Onouha wants £80k a week to go to QPR whose income cannot be any greater than ours. Obviously QPR have super rich backers but they would be bankrupt the moment the backers get tired of going to their pocket. This is tantamount to financial doping QPR and other clubs cannot afford the players they are recruiting which has a negative impact not only on the long term future of themselves but inflates players wages across the board.
The Premier league should impose limits not on players wages but the amount of debt that they allow clubs to have it would not stop a wealthy owners subsiding teams but if they wanted to they would have to put the money in as cold hard cash not debt that the club could be saddled with for a decade or more if they chose to walk away.
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Id also agree with those wo say the deal to take up the option on Bednar was foolish when it was obvious to us we were not going to get a bidder. It was a waste of nearly 1 million and for a club like us that could have been a good players wages for the year.
The idea with the renewing of the few players contract was that we renewed them and then hoped to sell them for a profit rather than them leaving for free. It worked for everyone apart from Bednar, who we accepted several bids for but he turned the moves down. If he had agreed terms then it would have worked perfectly and we would of gained money through the process. He could also yet go in January.
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I agree to a certain extent Jay but surely the club should have second guessed what the numpty is like from everything hes said and done since the 'drugs' bust.
I still feel the club were foolish to risk a new contract with Mr Big Head.
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It looks like I'm in a minority here with saying JP lacks ambition. Most of you are happy with his blueprint. That's fine - people have differing opinions.
With this in mind, I can't understand the hysteria on messageboards when we lose premier matches as surely we have set ourselves up to lose a lot of top flight games with this business model.
I realise football is a passionate game and people can lose rationality / perspective minutes after a loss.
My frustrations are generally to do with the financial restrictions applied and "the bigger picture". We really do not deserve higher than our current placing of 15th. The league table doesn't lie.
If we change manager they will be dogged by this strategy also, hence a never ending cycle.
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It looks like I'm in a minority here with saying JP lacks ambition. Most of you are happy with his blueprint. That's fine - people have differing opinions.
With this in mind, I can't understand the hysteria on messageboards when we lose premier matches as surely we have set ourselves up to lose a lot of top flight games with this business model.
I realise football is a passionate game and people can lose rationality / perspective minutes after a loss.
My frustrations are generally to do with the financial restrictions applied and "the bigger picture". We really do not deserve higher than our current placing of 15th. The league table doesn't lie.
If we change manager they will be dogged by this strategy also, hence a never ending cycle.
Well we finished 11th last season and since then we have brought in Jones,Gera,G-Mac and Long. Apart from Gera who has unfortunately been ruled out for the season, those players have performed extremely well this season and all look like bargains.
The reality regarding our position in the league not being higher than it is, consists of poor tactics and an injury crisis - especially to pivotal players.
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11th was a bit of a one-off last season and was the result of the exact same manager you're criticizing now!
Agree about losing Gera - a massive blow, the same as Man U losing Rooney, Man C losing Silva, Chelsea losing Mata etc. Brunt on the other hand has done jack all season apart from a wonder through ball at St James Park.
G Mac, Jones were bargains but haven't proved bona fida top flight players yet. Long was £6 million i.e. the sort of fee we should be spending regularly to remain competitive IMO.
Basically JP has set us up to scrap for survival, accepted by many fans "settling for 17th".
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11th was a bit of a one-off last season and was the result of the exact same manager you're criticizing now!
Agree about losing Gera - a massive blow, the same as Man U losing Rooney, Man C losing Silva, Chelsea losing Mata etc. Brunt on the other hand has done jack all season apart from a wonder through ball at St James Park.
G Mac, Jones were bargains but haven't proved bona fida top flight players yet. Long was £6 million i.e. the sort of fee we should be spending regularly to remain competitive IMO.
Basically JP has set us up to scrap for survival, accepted by many fans "settling for 17th".
I don't think losing Gera has made any difference at all. He played less than 3 hours football. We managed well enough without him last season. A negative approach to games is our downfall at present.
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It wasn't negative at Newcastle or Blackburn - our away record is excellent.
We went attacking with RDM and collapsed post Oct 10. RH then saved us from bottom 3.
Like it or not 15th is about right for a club with a very cautious approach to finance.
We have done extremely well to progress this far with signings like Olsson, Mulumbu, Odemwingie, Thomas etc. There's only so far we can push our luck IMO.
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JP actually appears to be taking not far short of a million in pay/pension in the past year. No great issue with that, as he has overseen great improvements in our fortunes in the past few years. I think we are adopting a sensible approach, but we will all get frustrated by losing more games than we win. Look at teams like Bolton, Blackburn,Wigan who have survived for a number of years. People do not go to watch them in large numbers. It seems that our "yo yo " approach is actually more exciting. Another season like this one at home and I suspect attendances will be down regardless of which division we are in.
I would settle for a good FA Cup run any time. We remember days at Wembley,or semi finals for ever. Mid to lower league finishes are soon forgotten by all except the accountants.
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I think although people moan about relegation battles and going to the championship its exciting because we are playing for something. Expectation has now rose and without sounding arrogant i dont think we will go down this season and never have once thought we will, i think we will sail close to the wind at times but i cant see a stage where we are bottom 2 or 3 relying on other results, not because we are a great side but i think there a small cluster of sides we are slightly better than and why we wont be in any trouble, i will take this back come May if we are bottom 3.
The problem with that expectation is that should we stay up again this season, we have then probably hit our level, we wont be playing for anything on a weekly basis except to consolidate which isnt as exciting as promotion or relegation battles. Thats why i would love us to go on a cup run, fair enough first couple rounds dont get peoples interest as much nowadays which is a shame but after that people get into in and it would be great to experience and talk about in the future the cup runs, days out, winning trophies instead of thinking that was the year we finished 13th or something.
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The only criticism I would have of the board is why hold the AGM in London?
Surely most albion shareholders (I'm not one) are midlands based?
You've answered your own question lad!
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I think Peace takes a small salary considering the club has a £60-£80 million turnover.
Can you think of another company whose main shareholder takes home such a small percentage of turnover?
Think youve got this the wrong way round mate.
His pay isnt in return for being a shareholder, but for his work. The return on his shareholding would come from a dividend (i dont think there is one?) and the increase in asset value.
He paid himself a million this year. That's a huge salary for a business with a turnover of the Albion.
It's equivalent to the boss of M and B paying himself £20m a year or National Express boss paying himself £30m. In reality, I suspect they each get closer to £1m, running businesses 25-40 times the size of WBA.
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Think youve got this the wrong way round mate.
His pay isnt in return for being a shareholder, but for his work. The return on his shareholding would come from a dividend (i dont think there is one?) and the increase in asset value.
He paid himself a million this year. That's a huge salary for a business with a turnover of the Albion.
It's equivalent to the boss of M and B paying himself £20m a year or National Express boss paying himself £30m. In reality, I suspect they each get closer to £1m, running businesses 25-40 times the size of WBA.
Thanks for clarifying that Jeremy. ;)
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Hind sight is a wonderful thing :D
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£1m a year for being one of the best-run clubs in the Premiership, and one of the very few which are not burdened by completely unsustainable debt? A bargain.
It works out to £20k a week - I think you will find somewhere between 15 and 20 WBA employees earning at least that, i.e. the players and the manager.
I've been a big critic of Peace in the past, but over the past 12 months he has really earned his salary. The decision alone of sacking RDM and replacing him with Hodgson was a brave and successful one.
In my view, based on performance, Peace is CURRENTLY worth every penny at £1m a year for the way he runs the club.
But that has to be distinguished from his role as Shareholder. Even if he sold the club, he could well be worth £1m a year to a new owner as Chief Executive Officer. We all know that JP does not have the wealth to enable the club to compete with other Premiership clubs, which makes the club's performance all the more impressive.
There is no doubt in my mind that the club's model is the right model for all Premiership clubs over the next decade - as many of them are starting to find out. Around 80% of clubs would go to the wall overnight if their owners demanded repayment of their loans. Not us though - its a heck of an achievement for us to be doing as well as we are, and it is easily forgotten.
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We're not a steady Premiership club yet. We're doing well and now have another cushion between us and the teams below. The problem is if this is us as a well run club then all we can hope for is relegation battle every season. In another thread I posted the total transfer spends for us year in year out. Typically it was around a £4m net spend once you've accounted for players sold. That's includes about 10 years ago. Taking that and allowing for inflation means it would be more like £5.7m a year of net spend. Remember, that's not making a loss, that's just spending the same on players that we did under Megson when we hadn't had years of Premiership money.
In real terms then we're spending less as each year goes by. Wages have gone up but we are in the Premier League now and if we really want to kick on and get ourselves to a stable position we can't keep shopping in the manner we are. We need to step it up a bit. The squad is lacking in quality and depth and we have too many players who clearly aren't good enough to help us push on. Our next target should be finishing midtable steadily without looking over our shoulders.
And before anyone starts, I'm not asking for us to go and spend £20m net. I'm saying spending £6m net shouldn't put us to the wall. If it would then JP isn't run the club as well as people keep telling me he is.
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I think everyone seems to be under estimating how much the player wages have gone through the roof. The figure quoted in the Daily Mail is £49m. To put that into context we only earned £45m from TV rights last year and the total wage bill (for players, coaching and commercial staff) back in 2008/2009 was £30m.
Our position on paying competitive wages is much better but there is no doubt this has had a negative impact on the fees we are able to pay.
I cannot see us spending much by the way of net fees whilst we are paying the current wage bill. It is an either or scenario.
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I think everyone seems to be under estimating how much the player wages have gone through the roof. The figure quoted in the Daily Mail is £49m. To put that into context we only earned £45m from TV rights last year and the total wage bill (for players, coaching and commercial staff) back in 2008/2009 was £30m.
Our position on paying competitive wages is much better but there is no doubt this has had a negative impact on the fees we are able to pay.
I cannot see us spending much by the way of net fees whilst we are paying the current wage bill. It is an either or scenario.
That figure is for 'fulfilling' wages on contracts from what i've read so its not the actual 'wage bill' per season. So if Brunt has had a new four year deal, all the money for that 4 years is put to one side which is all well and good but what happens to the money for the rest of the contract if Brunt is sold in two years time ? Not many players fulfill their entire contract these days.
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The idea with the renewing of the few players contract was that we renewed them and then hoped to sell them for a profit rather than them leaving for free. It worked for everyone apart from Bednar, who we accepted several bids for but he turned the moves down. If he had agreed terms then it would have worked perfectly and we would of gained money through the process. He could also yet go in January.
Id say poor ground work was put in place when taking up the option baggie79. Surely a little bit of research could have found out that bednar did not want to leave if he did not have to. He has been on sale for 2 years now and we didnt get a sale last year so why we would get a sale this year is something I cant work out. It was a costly mistake.
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That figure is for 'fulfilling' wages on contracts from what i've read so its not the actual 'wage bill' per season. So if Brunt has had a new four year deal, all the money for that 4 years is put to one side which is all well and good but what happens to the money for the rest of the contract if Brunt is sold in two years time ? Not many players fulfill their entire contract these days.
Yes maybe that is why I would like to see a copy of the accounts rather than rely on press reports
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£1m a year for being one of the best-run clubs in the Premiership, and one of the very few which are not burdened by completely unsustainable debt? A bargain.
Im not that comfortable with it really. We are in a world where most premier league owners put money INTO their clubs. Football is a unique industry, separate from selling clothing or furniture. Your income comes from fans loyalty to a particular club. They money he earns comes directly from fans.
Now you can say "he has done a good job" but does he really need 1 million a year? That is a lot of money for a club with our turnover and our limited resources. Thats 1 million that could improve the first team or improve the fans match day experience.
I understand if he is putting time into the club he needs some money to live on (is he doing much though, we dont know any more what he does because Ashworth does some of his old duties and Jenkins seem to be in charge of finance and he does no interviews any more). 1 million quid a year though? The national average wage is 20 thousand a year (and I dont even get that). The wages the anti capitalist protesters have been protesting about are the top company bosses wages of 200,000 a year which is gross wealth. So Peace gets between half a million and a million a season off the fans backs, bearing in mind he owns the club therefore has an asset worth 30 million in his possession. Is that not a eye watering amount of money for such a small investment? That is a lot of money to get out of fans loyalty.
I look at the shareholders meeting being held down in London, excluding normal shareholders, and it shows you our club is run by a rich elite now who have little really empathy/relationship with the fans who pay their wages and make their existence possible. It is sad now that football has come to this really - just a money making tool for people who most likely look down on the silly working classes funding the extravagance and the wealth making potential. There is certainly no way I will say peace deserves what he gets.
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Im not that comfortable with it really. We are in a world where most premier league owners put money INTO their clubs. Football is a unique industry, separate from selling clothing or furniture. Your income comes from fans loyalty to a particular club. They money he earns comes directly from fans.
Now you can say "he has done a good job" but does he really need 1 million a year? That is a lot of money for a club with our turnover and our limited resources. Thats 1 million that could improve the first team or improve the fans match day experience.
I understand if he is putting time into the club he needs some money to live on (is he doing much though, we dont know any more what he does because Ashworth does some of his old duties and Jenkins seem to be in charge of finance and he does no interviews any more). 1 million quid a year though? The national average wage is 20 thousand a year (and I dont even get that). The wages the anti capitalist protesters have been protesting about are the top company bosses wages of 200,000 a year which is gross wealth. So Peace gets between half a million and a million a season off the fans backs, bearing in mind he owns the club therefore has an asset worth 30 million in his possession. Is that not a eye watering amount of money for such a small investment? That is a lot of money to get out of fans loyalty.
I look at the shareholders meeting being held down in London, excluding normal shareholders, and it shows you our club is run by a rich elite now who have little really empathy/relationship with the fans who pay their wages and make their existence possible. It is sad now that football has come to this really - just a money making tool for people who most likely look down on the silly working classes funding the extravagance and the wealth making potential. There is certainly no way I will say peace deserves what he gets.
sounding like a resentful left wing politician who begrudges the rewards open to anyone in the capitalist world with the get up and go to make a success of their lives (excluding those with title) peace was born with exactly the same opportunity as all of us i presume. ambition and drive in individuals is what drives the capitalist world and while it has its imperfections i dont see an alternative system that has worked as well and affords the sort of freedom we all enjoy
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Im not that comfortable with it really. We are in a world where most premier league owners put money INTO their clubs. Football is a unique industry, separate from selling clothing or furniture. Your income comes from fans loyalty to a particular club. They money he earns comes directly from fans.
Now you can say "he has done a good job" but does he really need 1 million a year? That is a lot of money for a club with our turnover and our limited resources. Thats 1 million that could improve the first team or improve the fans match day experience.
I understand if he is putting time into the club he needs some money to live on (is he doing much though, we dont know any more what he does because Ashworth does some of his old duties and Jenkins seem to be in charge of finance and he does no interviews any more). 1 million quid a year though? The national average wage is 20 thousand a year (and I dont even get that). The wages the anti capitalist protesters have been protesting about are the top company bosses wages of 200,000 a year which is gross wealth. So Peace gets between half a million and a million a season off the fans backs, bearing in mind he owns the club therefore has an asset worth 30 million in his possession. Is that not a eye watering amount of money for such a small investment? That is a lot of money to get out of fans loyalty.
I look at the shareholders meeting being held down in London, excluding normal shareholders, and it shows you our club is run by a rich elite now who have little really empathy/relationship with the fans who pay their wages and make their existence possible. It is sad now that football has come to this really - just a money making tool for people who most likely look down on the silly working classes funding the extravagance and the wealth making potential. There is certainly no way I will say peace deserves what he gets.
Grass roots football is a working mans game but when you get to the level we are achieving, it no longer is and requires money and money men to sustain it. The money that the fans put into the game at this level wouldn't scratch the surface of what is required to sustain the level of achievement we are attaining to.
I do agree the amount of money that Peace earns out of being chairman is scandalous but then again, so is the money that players earn and the money involved in the game in general.
Premiership football is a indeed a unique industry, one where it appears the employee should get paid more than the employer!
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1 million a year salary for peace is a disgrace. im sure the ratio of his renumeration against the turnover of the club/business would be one of the highest compared to similiar positions in other companies.
im all for people getting a return on their money when they have risked it initially but this is where jp falls down straight away.
he has put next to nothing into albion and has acquired the majority of his shares with the clubs money.
he is sitting on a potential return of around 25/30 million on his shares so then to pay himself a million on top is shameful.
i will admit im proud that albion achieve everything that we do with the clubs money i still think jp is first and foremost got his interests before the albion.
also under his tenure he has overseen a reduction in capacity and the closure of 3 popular matchday drinking venues.