Author Topic: Coronavirus Thread - Games resuming 20 June - CLUB RELATED ONLY  (Read 265296 times)

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baggiejohn

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Think this is a decent solution to football problem.

http://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/1026006855?-11200:789


No it's not, the remaining fixtures must be played.

All clubs & fans, throughout the pyramid have made significant investments (financial & time & effort) in this season, the clubs have to be allowed to see the results of that investment (otherwise, you're rewarding failure).

Not one club has yet made any investment in next season, that's the one that should be sacrificed.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

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The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

zippyandbungle

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This is all very simple

19/20 season is dinner
20/21 season is pudding


And you all remember what mom used to say....
If youre going to get told off, get told off for doing something not for doing nothing..

mulliganstired

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This is all very simple

19/20 season is dinner
20/21 season is pudding


And you all remember what mom used to say....
Exactly, whenever I asked what was for afters, my mum would say "wait-and-see pudding".  We have to finish this season whenever and then see what can be done about the next.  The Premier League and Sky, players, agents all of them have cash washing around everywhere, they can stump up for security and quarantines and gets these games done behind closed doors as soon as it is reasonably safe.  If they don't football will lose all credibility and they will lose out anyway.

BalisPen

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I just think it's poor that the leagues and FA have absolutely NO contingency plan for anything like this happening.

Spot on. The FA should have rules about what happens in these circumstances. And given that we've had 2 World wars as well as the cold War when the Russians had missiles directed at us as an ally of the USA, there is no excuse for not having  rules with set timescales and scenarios should a season not finish.

As it is anything other than finishing the season leaves them and the premier league open to legal action.

east-stand-nick

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Spot on. The FA should have rules about what happens in these circumstances. And given that we've had 2 World wars as well as the cold War when the Russians had missiles directed at us as an ally of the USA, there is no excuse for not having  rules with set timescales and scenarios should a season not finish.

As it is anything other than finishing the season leaves them and the premier league open to legal action.

Precisely. It could have been weather-related, a war, a virus like we're seeing now. But the fact that absolutely no plan was in place for the season being curtailed was both arrogant and short-sighted. Especially considering how much money depends on the game.

Even if the plan was declaring the season null & void after a certain point, or deciding the leagues by "points per game" - if all clubs had agreed to something then the worries of legal action would have been far less. Instead, we're in a mess because there wasn't even a shred of preparation for any circumstances where the season gets stopped.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 04:46:42 PM by east-stand-nick »

mulliganstired

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I just think it's poor that the leagues and FA have absolutely NO contingency plan for anything like this happening.
They will have to in the future, something like Duckworth-Lewis

elmo_in_swansea

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what about the pools panel - anybody remember them predicting results for the pools coupons when there were a few postponements - I'm sure they dreamt up a few anti bankers lol
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baggiejohn

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Precisely. It could have been weather-related, a war, a virus like we're seeing now. But the fact that absolutely no plan was in place for the season being curtailed was both arrogant and short-sighted. Especially considering how much money depends on the game.

Even if the plan was declaring the season null & void after a certain point, or deciding the leagues by "points per game" - if all clubs had agreed to something then the worries of legal action would have been far less. Instead, we're in a mess because there wasn't even a shred of preparation for any circumstances where the season gets stopped.


I assume that the contract between the broadcasters, clubs & players is for the completion of season 2019/20, & a separate contract would be agreed for the following season.
If my assumption is correct, then there is no reason why the remaining matches can't be completed.

The question then arises, what happens to season 2020/21? If it's a shortened season with fewer games then clubs' revenues would be down, as it's likely that broadcasters would pay on a pro rata basis.
If player contracts are time driven (as opposed to game driven), that's where difficulties may arise.

IMO litigation would be between clubs & players not clubs & broadcasters.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

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The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

BalisPen

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The club are telling staff that they will be furloughing from Monday 6/4/20.

Heard two different scenarios re the season one stating the season will definitely finish because of the sky money consequences and the other that we and Leeds will go up into 22 prem with 5 going down.

baggiejohn

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The club are telling staff that they will be furloughing from Monday 6/4/20.

Heard two different scenarios re the season one stating the season will definitely finish because of the sky money consequences and the other that we and Leeds will go up into 22 prem with 5 going down.

Hope the players make up the balance of the staff wages.

Pretty sure the season will finish, all of the club costings for this season will have been made on the basis of completing the season.

Re: my previous post.

The agreement with the broadcasters & the leagues is until 2022, but I'm not sure if it's a blanket agreement or a price per game until 2022.
If it's a blanket agreement, it's difficult to see how all the fixtures for 2019/20 & 2020/21 can be completed by May 2021, so it's almost inevitable there will be a loss of revenue for the clubs, either this season or next.
If it was easy, it wouldn't be Albion

A wise old owl sat in an oak, the more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke the more he heard, why aren't we like that wise old bird?

BalisPen

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Hope the players make up the balance of the staff wages.

Pretty sure the season will finish, all of the club costings for this season will have been made on the basis of completing the season.

Re: my previous post.

The agreement with the broadcasters & the leagues is until 2022, but I'm not sure if it's a blanket agreement or a price per game until 2022.
If it's a blanket agreement, it's difficult to see how all the fixtures for 2019/20 & 2020/21 can be completed by May 2021, so it's almost inevitable there will be a loss of revenue for the clubs, either this season or next.

A lot is being made of the sky money etc, etc, but I am sure they can do a deal with them to get a season at reduced rates in the next deal which in turn would give all clubs the opportunity of knowing what that reduced figure is and budgeting for it.

It's not like the prem is a two horse race, it's Liverpool's tilte and has been for a long time and also they have shown 3 quarters of the season already and charged their subscribers for it, so I think that is not a massive issue, the issue is denying Liverpool the title.

alex1

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what about the pools panel - anybody remember them predicting results for the pools coupons when there were a few postponements - I'm sure they dreamt up a few anti bankers lol
Pools panel, or similar, would be the worst possible solution. Whilst we all try to predict results resulting in much disagreement, imagine some football "experts" delivering their views which would be absolutely binding, with promotion and relegation decided. Fans would never accept their verdicts. 
Einstein: A definition of insanity- someone who takes the same action time after time, even though previously it's always ended in failure

east-stand-nick

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Pools panel, or similar, would be the worst possible solution. Whilst we all try to predict results resulting in much disagreement, imagine some football "experts" delivering their views which would be absolutely binding, with promotion and relegation decided. Fans would never accept their verdicts.

I'd rather the season be binned.

ronnie_allen

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My main aim would be to get this season finished.

With the season so far progressed; there is a greater need for it to be completed. And also; I would think there is a reasonable probability that we won't be able to get a full season out of next year; so I would be happier to try to get one season complete rather than null and voiding two in a row.

chipperclark

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 ;D
I have a very "left of field" suggestion  to the following criteria.

 1. We finish this season. It could possibly start say in July?(behind closed doors maybe?) play to the end of August finish the 9 games and playoffs (2 games a week..same stress for every team).

2. Have a 6 week break for transfers/break etc. then start season 2020-2021 in October..with the season spilling into June 2021.

3. No domestic cups played in season 2020-2021.

Albionic

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;D
I have a very "left of field" suggestion  to the following criteria.

 1. We finish this season. It could possibly start say in July?(behind closed doors maybe?) play to the end of August finish the 9 games and playoffs (2 games a week..same stress for every team).

2. Have a 6 week break for transfers/break etc. then start season 2020-2021 in October..with the season spilling into June 2021.

3. No domestic cups played in season 2020-2021.

and no meaningless international breaks, and definitely no "sponsors tournaments" on far side of the planet.
the road to the summit has dips, keep the faith when navigating those dips !!
Albion Family !!!

east-stand-nick

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One elephant in the room is the ridiculous number of fixtures in the Champions League/Europa League. UEFA could very easily slim down the tournament to eliminate the tedious group games but that would mean losing money so it would never happen.

Standaman

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Long article By Matt Slater in the Athletic which summarises the contractual issues.
 
Several leading sports lawyers have raised serious doubts about the implications of extending the season beyond June 30, with one lawyer saying it is simply “not realistic”, while another said the situation would be an “absolute nightmare”.
The crisis caused by the coronavirus pandemic is, of course, bigger than football or any other sport, but that does not mean the professional game is not dealing with significant and unprecedented challenges.
One of the most complicated issues is how to finish the current season in Europe, where many players’ contracts expire on June 30, a hard deadline to end one season and start another that nobody expected would be forced to move.
But that is the predicament facing administrators, clubs, leagues and players as they try to work out how to preserve the integrity of their competitions, as well as satisfy their various broadcast and commercial contracts, assuming their respective governments let them do so.
“If the season is to be extended beyond June 30, clubs are going to want to extend some of their expiring contracts, but they are unlikely to want to hand out new three-year deals, so they are very likely to be short-term deals,” says Nick De Marco QC, a barrister with Blackstone Chambers.
“But this presents a perennial problem for players: if you get injured while playing on a short-term contract, you could find yourself without a job. Now, it makes sense for all parties to negotiate and find a way through this, but it is not required for players to agree to these short-term extensions under English law.”
Dan Lowen, a sports contract specialist at London-based law firm Level, agrees with De Marco.
“Some with expiring contracts may be delighted to be paid by their clubs for a few more weeks or months, but others will refuse to accept any extension as they won’t want to jeopardise a long-term or better contract with a new club,” says Lowen.
A working group set up by world football’s governing body FIFA to look at the regulatory issues posed by the pandemic has recently sent a report to the game’s stakeholders.
In this report, which The Athletic has seen, FIFA says the “three core matters” that must be addressed are expiring contracts, the “appropriate timing” for the next transfer window (currently scheduled to open on July 1) and “frustrated” agreements that can no longer be fulfilled because of the COVID-19 outbreak.
The concept of frustration exists in common law systems, like England’s, and civil law systems, such as Switzerland’s, where FIFA is based. In simple terms, it says contracts can be set aside if an unforeseen event makes it impossible for the contract to be fulfilled.
This is particularly significant now that clubs are unable to provide their coaches, players and non-playing staff with work, and may be struggling to pay them. As a result, clubs have been persuading their employees to take pay cuts or defer wages until life returns to normal, with players at Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Juventus among those who have accepted cuts.
So far, only a handful of teams in England and Scotland have agree to do likewise, although Newcastle United, Norwich City, Bournemouth and Tottenham Hotspur have become the first Premier League clubs to take advantage of a government-backed scheme to furlough their non-playing staff. This means these employees will be paid 80 per cent of their usual salaries, up to a maximum of £2,500 a month, out of the public purse — a controversial move for companies who employ millionaires.
FIFA can only provide general guidance on these matters and its proposal is that “clubs and employees (players and coaches) be encouraged to work together to agree on deferral and/or reduction of salary by a reasonable amount for any period of the stoppage”.
The English Football League, Premier League and Professional Footballers’ Association met on Wednesday in attempt to reach a united position and it is expected that English-based players will agree to defer a proportion of their wages.
That is certainly the hope of global players’ union FIFPro, whose secretary general Jonas Baer-Hoffmann told reporters on Tuesday he hoped the various contractual issues could be resolved “collectively, with the right will on both sides”.
But, presumably as an example of the wrong will, he also highlighted the example of seven-time Slovakian champions MSK Zilina, who became the first European club to start liquidation proceedings after the start of the coronavirus crisis on Monday when 17 of their first-team players refused to accept an 80 per cent pay cut.
This is clearly an extreme example, but it highlights how difficult it can be to find common ground or a way through the crisis.
As Lowen points out, the situation in the England, particularly at several of the Premier League’s top clubs, is further complicated by the fact many player contracts are now “heavily skewed towards incentives” or bonuses.
“In normal times, these contingent payments are seen as a win-win because the clubs recognise that they gain if a player meets these targets,” he says.
“If the season is cancelled, players will not receive these bonuses, some of which they could have reasonably expected to have received. In those circumstances, should they also agree to cut or defer their basic salaries?
“There is often a difficult tension between the regulatory and legal spheres in global sports and this crisis is shining a bright light on that. FIFA is in a tough spot because it has 211 member associations: each one of those may have a slightly different approach to the regulations around contracts and will have different legal frameworks in which those contracts exist.”
A good example of this is how an English court might interpret a contract expiring on June 30 versus a court elsewhere in Europe, and it is based on the concept of “contractual intention”.
“In England, it is based on what an objective bystander would reasonably consider the intention of the contract to be,” explains De Marco.
“In this case, the fact the contracts say June 30, it would be reasonable to assume that is what was intended. But under civil law, you look more at the subjective interpretation of intention. So, for example, if you had evidence to suggest the parties to the contract actually meant ‘until the end of the season’, you could more easily extend it.”
Some experts have suggested football needs to look again at its player contracts, as they do not contain “force majeure” clauses that guard against unforeseen circumstances.
“They are common in other sports contracts,” says Dan Chapman, head of the sports and employment teams at Leathes Prior, a law firm in East Anglia.
“For example, the last race of the season in Formula One is scheduled for Abu Dhabi but the sport has had to cancel and reschedule races before. This is reflected in the drivers’ contracts, which have more flexibility.
“Football contracts, on the other hand, really aren’t very sophisticated and I wonder if this is something we should look at after the crisis. If you’re (Birmingham City’s) Jude Bellingham, just to pick one example, are you really going to want to play a few more games in the Championship this summer if you already have a move to Borussia Dortmund or Manchester United lined up?
“I don’t think extending the season for months is realistic or possible from a legal point of view. I can’t see players agreeing to short-term extensions if they know they’re going to be cramming games in before facing a quick turnaround for another long season. The risk of injury will only be increased.”
De Marco, however, is not so convinced that football contracts can or will be changed as a result of the crisis.
“Football contracts are not like most employment contracts for good reason,” he says. “First, they are the product of years of collective bargaining between the clubs, players’ unions and the governing bodies, so they cannot be altered without consultation.
“Second, they are fixed-term contracts, so players cannot just be made redundant or dismissed on notice because there is no work for them. And there are no force majeure clauses in them because of the highly specific nature of the industry.
“A Liverpool player cannot just hand in his notice and join Arsenal in the same way most of us can move to new companies. This is because of the integrity and team stability issues this would pose for football competitions, but it is a fundamental restraint of trade. Therefore it is only fair that players get something in return.
“Force majeure clauses might seem reasonable to some but most players only get two or three good contracts in their lifetime: is it fair that those contracts could be ripped up for something that is completely beyond their control?”
Lowen believes one possible way out of the legal minefield is to relax FIFA’s ban on pre-contract agreements between clubs in the same country. Under the current rules, players can sign pre-contracts with clubs abroad, as Aaron Ramsey did when he left Arsenal for Juve.
“One way of potentially allaying players’ concerns would be for national associations to allow players to do this now for moves within national borders,” says Lowen.
“This could, however, lead to potential issues with the integrity of the competition, as players could face their future employers in the final matches of the season. But signing a pre-contract would in theory give players a degree of protection against the risks and impact of a bad injury.”
Daniel Geey, a sports lawyer at Sheridans, raises another potential headache for clubs and players. “What happens if a player is out of contract on July 1 but cannot be employed or registered by another club until the new season starts because the transfer window has moved? That’s a restraint of trade,” says Geey.
“And then there will be other players who will only sign extended contracts if they are rewarded for the added risk of injury. That is why I can imagine some clubs would simply decide to play on with a smaller squad.
“My gut feeling is the clubs will have enough players to finish the season without dishing out lots of short-term deals, although this will clearly lead to some questions about the integrity of the competition. Watford are a good potential example as Heurelho Gomes and Ben Foster are out of contract. That is a good prisoner’s dilemma for them as they wonder if they should re-sign or not.”
Another lawyer, who wished to remain anonymous, said all these issues amounted to the “absolute nightmare” mentioned above and it is why he believes the game will reach a “tipping point” in the coming weeks and realise the season cannot be completed.
He said he thought the leaders in each league would be awarded the respective titles, the current Premier League table would decide the European places, the top two in the Championship, League One and League Two would be promoted and there would be no relegation. The divisions would then be readjusted over the coming seasons.
“Somebody will try to sue the leagues but I think it will be a case of the path of least resistance and I’m sure a settlement can be reached with the broadcasters,” he said.


I don't think it is the right way to proceed but I suspect the tipping point argument will grow over the coming weeks
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BalisPen

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The Belgium league has ended and the standings upto the suspension have been declared final. Not relevant other than it could be argued it wasn't unusual or unfair should we do the same over here.

Hull Baggie

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One elephant in the room is the ridiculous number of fixtures in the Champions League/Europa League. UEFA could very easily slim down the tournament to eliminate the tedious group games but that would mean losing money so it would never happen.

Go back to the European Cup where only the champions play each other and have it as a straight unseeded knock out tournament again.
Get rid of the Europa league and bring back the Cup Winners Cup as well as the Uefa Cup.

I know it's never going to happen but I can dream can't I?
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wbarenno

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The Belgium league has ended and the standings upto the suspension have been declared final. Not relevant other than it could be argued it wasn't unusual or unfair should we do the same over here.

Think there was only one game left to play in the Belgium league so it’s a lot easier to do that

lewisant

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;D
I have a very "left of field" suggestion  to the following criteria.

 1. We finish this season. It could possibly start say in July?(behind closed doors maybe?) play to the end of August finish the 9 games and playoffs (2 games a week..same stress for every team).

2. Have a 6 week break for transfers/break etc. then start season 2020-2021 in October..with the season spilling into June 2021.

3. No domestic cups played in season 2020-2021.

I'd say no play-offs - top 3 to go up.
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mulliganstired

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I'd say no play-offs - top 3 to go up.
That is a good way to save a fortnight

lewisant

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That is a good way to save a fortnight

Also heightens our chances of promotion!
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If they finish this season it would have to be 'as intended' imo.
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